WEBVTT - How to Make Dolly Parton Cry with Shima Oliaee 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:04.280 Today's quote is from British author Diana Hardy. She said, 0:00:04.760 --> 0:00:08.760 it only takes one voice at the right pitch to 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:20.720 start an avalanche. Welcome to permission to speak the podcast 0:00:20.800 --> 0:00:24.280 about how we talk and how we get ourselves heard 0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:32.000 with me, samar Ba. If you were obsessed with the 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:35.760 podcast series Dolly Parton's America like I was, you have 0:00:35.960 --> 0:00:40.519 heard today's guest Shima Oli. I was the producer and 0:00:40.600 --> 0:00:43.720 reporter for the series and just won the Peabody, which 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:48.080 is like the broadcasting Award for excellence along with the 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:52.120 show's host and her boss, jad Appenron. I wanted to 0:00:52.120 --> 0:00:56.240 have her on to ask all the questions about producing 0:00:56.720 --> 0:00:58.360 and about what it was actually like to be in 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:02.480 the room with Dolly and with jab Who's I mean? 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:06.960 I think the first podcast voice I ever heard when 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:10.440 I discovered Radio Lab while I was driving through the 0:01:10.480 --> 0:01:14.120 backwoods of Virginia in trying to find these like really 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:17.640 isolated locations where we were shooting the movie Loving Anyway, 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:24.080 I remember hearing Radio Lab and going, oh, this is podcast, um, 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:28.240 And I wanted to have Sima on to talk about 0:01:28.240 --> 0:01:32.959 her own voice on Mike, which I was really intrigued 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:36.399 by as I was listening to the series as well 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:40.440 as off as the child of immigrants, as a reporter 0:01:40.800 --> 0:01:44.520 who you know, has to ask tough questions and who 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:47.639 as she talked about here, Jad relied on to speak 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:51.040 up with a quote unquote love shove every once in 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:55.120 a while during extremely intense interview moments. And also, you know, 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:59.360 as a woman in radio trying to own her own 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:05.640 creative vision. I was so taken with the Dolly Parton series. 0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:09.239 And I mean, clearly I'm not alone. It won every 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:13.480 award for Best Podcast in twenty and you know, I 0:02:13.520 --> 0:02:16.440 had a feeling that Shema would be full of wisdom 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:20.120 and insight, but truly was blowed away. Nonetheless, if you 0:02:20.160 --> 0:02:27.200 were in the mood for surprising and deep and balsy, sister, uh, 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:44.200 this is Shema only I part of my experience listening 0:02:44.240 --> 0:02:48.960 to Dolly Parton's America among the various you know, it's 0:02:48.960 --> 0:02:52.400 sort of insane universe of journeys that we were able 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:55.480 to follow one of them. And why I wanted to 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:58.120 what my like inspiration moment was to have you on 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:01.480 this podcast is that I felt like we were also 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:06.520 listening to the journey of your voice on air. Oh wow, 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:10.240 did you feel that because you were at first a 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:14.000 just a name, yeah, and then by the end you 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:17.120 were very much a part of the you know, obviously 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:19.120 the intimacy of podcast is that we have your we 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:22.000 have these voices in our ears, and you know, I 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:25.120 remember I think I even like might have lightly gasped 0:03:25.200 --> 0:03:27.920 in the car driving listening with the first time that 0:03:27.960 --> 0:03:29.720 I heard you on air, and that it wasn't sort 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:31.680 of cut around your question. It was very much like 0:03:31.960 --> 0:03:35.360 integrated in and I was like, there she is. I 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:38.440 love your podcast because of this, and I'm like, oh, 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:42.520 she gets it. We really had a blank slate going 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:46.120 into this, and there are so many moments. I mean, 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:49.800 there's four hours of tape, so altogether it was six 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:54.600 hours and seventeen minutes of the nine episodes, um plus 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:57.560 the two music episodes that we released as bonuses. But 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:00.800 can you imagine four hours went to six hours. It 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:03.800 was a very personal journey for me too, and people 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:07.680 don't get to hear that. That was also deliberate because 0:04:08.360 --> 0:04:12.520 to me, the interesting aspect of this idea of oneness. 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:16.400 The first idea I had was Dad's Dad and Dolly 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:21.440 felt like one person to me viewing them, and I 0:04:21.520 --> 0:04:24.760 also have a Middle Eastern background. And when we were 0:04:24.760 --> 0:04:28.719 in the Kansas Plans with Grandma Betty and sarah' smrsh 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:31.080 I actually this is three months before we got to 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:34.840 the Tennessee Mountain Home. I had an emotional breakdown in 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:38.159 the car which is on tape where I start weeping. 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:40.960 I'm talking with Sarah Smarsh. Grandma Betty has just shared 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:43.600 about all the domestic abuse and violence and her in 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:47.280 her love life and with her seven to eight husbands, 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:51.880 and I start weeping in this car as we've visited 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:55.880 the graveyard of her ex husband, and we're driving through 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:59.640 the Kansas planes and I start talking about my cousins 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:04.080 and my grandma in Iran. And these are women that 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:09.360 went through Grandma Betty stories like they lived Grandma Betty's life. 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:12.000 But I was separate from them because I was in America. 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:15.279 And when I met one of my cousins, she cried 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:18.160 to me and said, you know you were lucky you 0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:22.360 were there, but we suffered here. I have an accent. 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:25.880 I can't live in America. I don't have a visa 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:29.600 to do so. Um so she's she'll always be seen 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:32.760 as another on the world stage. And so I had 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:35.400 flashbacks of my cousin during that visit, and also when 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:38.760 I met the University of Tennessee kids when they were 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:41.200 sharing about the accent. That's that was the first reporting 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:44.760 trip I went on. They all just started bearing their 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:50.200 souls and that moment, plus that Sarah Smarsh breaking down 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:54.440 about feeling my grandma and her village in the Kansas Plains. 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:58.520 And then on top of that, hearing Dolly talk about 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:02.000 Dad's dad, which we never planned to use at the start, 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:06.000 but she was kind of teasing Jad's dad about his accent. 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:08.400 And one of these interviews, in the first interview Jad 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:10.520 did that. I wasn't there in the one where she 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:13.880 steam rolls him and where she steaming his chad a 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:17.880 bit um. But when I was listening, I thought, this 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:20.120 is funny. This is a woman with a thick Southern 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:24.160 accent teasing this Lebanese man about his accent. And I'm 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:26.120 someone who I grew up with parents with an accent. 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:29.520 So this oneness of like the Middle East and the South, 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:33.400 and of people being other that you don't expect to 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:38.320 be mothered, of friendships that form an unlikely places, I 0:06:38.360 --> 0:06:43.920 think that that was my soul. The entire journey and 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:48.360 what you cannot be captured, you know, which cannot be understated, 0:06:49.120 --> 0:06:53.000 and which I have not really like expressed in any interview, 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:56.479 is it was such a spiritual experience. Like I don't 0:06:56.480 --> 0:06:59.400 want to say spiritual because it sounds so kind of goofy, 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:02.640 you know, or whatever. But there were so many moments 0:07:02.640 --> 0:07:04.920 where Jad and I turned to each other and it 0:07:05.000 --> 0:07:10.160 was healing wounds of our childhood. It was healing wounds 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:14.600 of of being first generation Americans with parents from the 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:18.360 Middle East. It was for me, it was healing wounds 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:25.400 of domestic violence amongst women in your family, of poverty, um, 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:29.600 of all of that um. Anyway, so I think naturally 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:33.080 that happened. I was just supposed to be the producer 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:35.760 behind the scene. I didn't even want to talk in interviews, 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:38.960 but Jad actually encouraged me. He said, no, be a Robert. 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:42.560 You're like Robert crow Witch, you're crazy, like you're kind 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:44.280 of you. Just say the crazy thing, just do it. 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:45.440 And I said, no, I don't want to do that. 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:47.000 I want to be serious. I want to be so 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:50.400 serious and I want to be taken seriously, and he said, no, 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:53.560 just be yourself. But I did see my role as 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:57.840 a behind the scenes kind of Ninja and that was 0:07:57.920 --> 0:08:01.640 my role. But then naturally, as the series evolved, my 0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:06.960 voice just entered it because my ideas were, so we're 0:08:07.120 --> 0:08:10.080 we're are everywhere in the series. My work is everywhere 0:08:10.080 --> 0:08:12.760 in the series. I think also Jad has a brilliant 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:16.240 audio mind and he hears things as music. And I 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:19.200 was a flute. I was the pan flute, like it 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:21.960 was like I started out little like I was not 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:24.840 the main I was not the piano, right, I was 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:28.040 not the main course. That might have been actually Dolly, 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:30.480 but like you know, and there's a conductor and there's 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:33.880 it was an orchestra to make those nine episodes. But 0:08:33.960 --> 0:08:36.680 I think I was a pan flute maybe once in 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:39.240 a while a saxophone or something that would come in 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:42.640 and it would help. So if it helped the whole series, 0:08:42.880 --> 0:08:45.520 it would happen. But if it didn't help the series, 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:49.600 those parts were not there. What helped the series is 0:08:49.640 --> 0:08:51.920 what we put in there. I mean, in theory, this 0:08:52.000 --> 0:08:55.240 is why we should speak. Ever, you know, it gets 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:57.800 when we're when that when eyes are on us, it 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:01.600 can become oh god, I I better be clever um. 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:04.280 But if we can always think you know, am I 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:06.640 opening my mouth? Am I giving myself permission to speak? 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:08.520 Because what I say is going to be of use? 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:11.640 You know. I'm also such a self editor. I'm very 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:15.240 self critical. And it was an intense experience. I mean, 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:18.400 as as beautiful and gorgeous, it was also really intense. 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:21.200 I mean, for two people to do something like this 0:09:21.400 --> 0:09:25.600 was insane. People were asking other people I work with, 0:09:25.920 --> 0:09:27.920 you know, oh, Jad's got a team of twenty, right, 0:09:28.160 --> 0:09:30.760 and you would tell, you know, heads of in of 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:33.719 this industry would have be having lunch with my coworker 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:36.080 and they would say, oh, Dad's got twenty doing that 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:38.719 dollar series, right, And my coworker would say, no, it's 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:42.360 one this one girl. She's not sleeping, you know. But um. 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:44.760 But it was the opportunity of a lifetime. And I 0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:49.079 am self critical, and I do appreciate that Jad also 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:52.520 championed me like we would. You know, when you're in 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:56.920 a creative um environment like that, it's like a crucible, 0:09:57.200 --> 0:10:01.000 so it's like pressure, it's gorgeous, it's like you're making 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:03.720 a diamond like that. We were trying so hard and 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:05.760 we were so in there now and I even hear 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:08.960 a bit of the series I think, wow, I was 0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:11.839 on another level. But it's also you know, going back 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:13.520 and forth and know it's gotta be this and gotta 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:15.520 be that, and then how do we say this and 0:10:15.520 --> 0:10:17.880 how do we say that? And I was definitely behind 0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:21.000 the scenes too, so I was championing him. But then 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:24.120 when I would be pulled in, you know, he knows 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:27.200 what he's doing. He's had twenty years of experience, and 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:29.520 so when I felt, Chad, I don't even want my 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:32.400 voice right there, he would say, no, let it be 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:35.640 right there. That first interview, right it was just the 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:39.200 foundation to create a relationship with Dolly. So you know, 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:42.000 he asked me to draft questions for her and then 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:43.480 but he let her kind of do her own thing. 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:45.600 She did steam Roland, but he also led her like 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:49.120 it's a It was a first meeting, but he knew 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:53.280 we would go back, and that second interview we prepared 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:56.000 for months. I was on the phone with anyone who 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:59.280 had ever written anything about Dolly. I was I was 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:01.480 reading everying on our life. I was trying to find 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:05.040 things no one had found, and my goal was I 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:08.760 wanted and I told Jad this, and I think he 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:11.120 did a Life Hacker article at that time where he 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:14.840 says Shema is a unicorn and she makes famous people 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:17.360 crying interviews because I told him, I said I want 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:19.280 to make Dolly cry and he said, you're crazy. We 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:22.640 can't make her cry. Did you hear that interview? And 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:24.720 I thought, no, we can. We can find a way. 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:27.640 I want her to get to a real moment of 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:32.000 something she's never told anyone. I really wanted that, and 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:37.280 he invited me on that second interview, and we prepped. 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:41.240 We had a four hour trajectory of an interview. We 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:45.000 had video, we had audio, we had a we had 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:48.720 I had done massive research and then we compiled it all, 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:53.439 we organized it, we made it multimedia, and we set 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:56.120 the agenda. I remember we were sitting in the car, 0:11:56.280 --> 0:11:58.320 I think this was his dad's car outside of this 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:03.440 Nashville studio, and we were both nervous. Like Dad was 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:06.720 visibly nervous, I was nervous. At that point. He had 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:09.160 done the first interview with Dolly and he had interviewed 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:12.640 the class by himself, which was okay, But then the 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:16.760 second time he brought me because the Dolly professor is 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:19.640 a staunch feminist and thought she must would go and 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:22.520 told Jad and Jad was like, oh, yeah, okay. So 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:26.120 Jad brought me second time and that's all the kids 0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:29.520 shared about shame, and Jad and I both connected with 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:32.640 that because we are we have felt other two as 0:12:32.679 --> 0:12:36.800 first generation Americans, and we were in awe of that 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:39.160 second of that second Knoxvill trip that in that which 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:42.080 was my first reporting trip. Then he takes me to Dolly. 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:46.400 We're in the car, nervous as hell and almost it 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:50.400 was a state of prayer going in and we walk 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:52.520 up to the studio and they could see us, but 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:55.840 we couldn't see them because the studio has like the 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:59.400 reflective you know, mirror windows or whatever. And I hear 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:04.760 Dolly go, there's a girl out there? Why is there 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:07.440 are girls? Like? What is happening? And then they opened. 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:09.000 She did not know I was going to be there. 0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:12.200 We go into the studio. There's one engineer, one Mike, 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:15.679 Jad and I sitting in front of Dolly, and um, 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:18.160 I was on a couch at first, but then I yeah, anyway, 0:13:18.240 --> 0:13:20.760 we were sitting in front of Dolly. That's interesting. There 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:22.800 was like a moment when you when you like scooted 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:25.680 forward from couch to Yeah. I started on the couch 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:28.439 the first hour. I think I was on the couch 0:13:28.480 --> 0:13:30.559 and then we had a bathroom break. In the first 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:34.920 hour we went in, we went in hard. The first hour, 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:38.199 the suicide was brought up, the Satas songs was brought up, 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:44.360 mental illness, the abuse in her family amongst women, poverty. 0:13:45.080 --> 0:13:49.920 Then we come back and then we do another three 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:51.959 and a half hours, and it felt like we left 0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:58.520 the planet. It was. It was so intense, and it 0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:00.839 was every moment felt like you're on a high wire. 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:05.200 It was not a relaxed interview, but it was UM. 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:08.559 We were just trying to open doors. And she cried 0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:12.199 twice in the interview, and I served at that time. 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:14.120 I mean I was not planning to talk at all. 0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:17.360 I knew the entire trajectory and I really felt like 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:21.280 I was invisible presence. I was there to make her 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:24.320 say what she needs to say, just invisibly. It's with 0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:26.480 when I've talked to other producers. I have a friend 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:30.040 of mine UM Eleanor Kagan. We were describing this UM 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:33.800 being the producer that's supporting a host. It is a 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:36.920 very freaking cool experience that I don't think people talk 0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:42.080 about where you are the invisible like maker of magic, 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:45.680 but no one knows because you cannot talk, you cannot 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:48.560 rue it. But you've got to make You've got to 0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:51.280 make everyone the best they can be without saying a 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:55.880 word until it's necessary. And so there'd be a moment 0:14:55.920 --> 0:15:00.560 where there were two moments where she she would stop 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:04.720 the question and then I would love shove, I would 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:08.560 I would come in, and one time was she would 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:11.840 not go into the suicide. And I knew the story 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:15.240 because I had done my research, which didn't make the podcast, 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:20.320 but I know everything about it, and so I discovered 0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:23.080 exactly what had happened, what was going on. But you know, 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:27.200 and Jad also has to be polite and kind, kinder 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:29.040 than me. I can do more in the Bad Cop 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:31.960 because he has the personal relationship right. And we had 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:34.480 to get another interview that wasn't our last interview. So 0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:36.880 what is the love shove? So the love shove is, 0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:40.840 you know, she's she answers to cut it off. And 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:45.040 then I kind of a tiptoe. I kind of tiptoe 0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:47.520 in in my awkward way, and I was like, and 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:51.680 I said, um, I heard there was a gun, so 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:55.000 I just put it out there and she goes, there 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:57.240 was no gun. Did you read that? And this I said, actually, yeah, 0:15:57.240 --> 0:15:59.880 I know from this and this and this, and then 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:03.520 she says, you know when I needed a gun. I'm 0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:07.120 that's when That's when we got to the Porter question. Right. 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:11.160 So there's a moment that when you push someone says 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:14.400 something that might not serve that moment but became like 0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:17.200 the opening of the Porter story. And that was next 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:19.240 on our agenda, so you dive into the Porter story. 0:16:19.720 --> 0:16:22.440 And then with the Trump moment, that was a moment 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:25.040 where she just stopped. She would not answer what happened 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:28.200 at the Emmy's with Lily Tomlin and Jane Fonda. Um, 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:30.720 when they were bashing Trump and she was expected to, 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:34.800 you know, banter with them, she wouldn't go into it 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:39.240 too deeply. And Um, that was a moment where all 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:43.000 my research paid off because I knew I knew all 0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:47.600 about her story about Porter and forgiveness, and I thought, oh, 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:51.760 if she could forgive Porter, who pointed Lee came for her, 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:54.920 she's going to have compassion for She just doesn't like 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:58.280 she's gonna have compassion for Trump. She doesn't jump on bandwagons. 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:01.720 If you look at her, like the even the cheesiness 0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:05.600 and the butterflies and the Dollywood and she's in her 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:09.720 own world. She is in her Dolly world. She is 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:14.240 in her own sphere. She doesn't she does not join 0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:18.560 any kind of group. And that was part of the 0:17:18.560 --> 0:17:20.760 fund That was the answer to the feminist question, that 0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:22.639 was the answer to the Trump question, that was the 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:26.240 answer to even she could have joined me and Jad 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:30.080 going hey, let's let's really unpack porter, like, let's really 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:32.119 just say come on, he was kind of he was 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:34.480 me come on, Dolly. You know, she wouldn't even jump 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:37.960 with us into that question. So I think even with 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:40.400 the me Too movement, she wouldn't really even jump into that. 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:44.560 She wouldn't. She doesn't jump into any kind of trend 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:48.000 or group anything like that. She totally sends as an individual. 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:50.120 And at the end of the day, I also think 0:17:50.160 --> 0:17:53.560 that would link to her faith, that she feels like 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:56.080 she has her own mission on this planet and with 0:17:57.359 --> 0:18:01.360 her faith and her and God or whatever you might 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:05.800 call that spiritual essence. She prays every morning at two 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:09.960 am and then writes she's on her own train. I 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:12.720 want to talk about this moment that you're talking about, 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:15.760 where the where the energy changes in a room. Sometimes 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:18.600 it's as obvious as like literally the person you're interviewing 0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:21.560 saying I'm not going to answer that, but sometimes it's not. 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:25.040 It makes me think of Anna Davir Smith, who does 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:27.520 these amazing one Woman shows where she embodies all the 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:31.760 characters that she's interviewed. She writes about listening for and 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:33.760 this is sort of a Shakespeare metaphor, but you know 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:37.639 Shakespeare has this um da da dada i ambic pentameter 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:41.119 and um, and that that da dada is sort of 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:44.520 meant to reflect the heartbeat and when it goes off 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:47.600 when it's data data data data datta. Shakespeare used that 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:51.000 very specifically to mean like something's really wrong with the world, 0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:53.400 like something on a on a on a grand psychic club. 0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:55.879 And so what Anna Davir Smith says is she listens 0:18:56.000 --> 0:19:00.520 for the trophy, the off rhythm in the I can beat, 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:03.600 And that's her metaphor. I don't think it's literal, but 0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:06.280 that thing of like when someone talks in a way 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:10.719 that accidentally reveals something and you want to go in there. Okay, 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:14.840 so this is what happened. I was I started as 0:19:14.880 --> 0:19:18.320 the main researcher on this project. Then I go into produce, 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:21.880 which producing means very different things in very different places. 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:24.280 But because it was a two person projects, it meant 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:27.240 a lot more than you would expect. You were clearly 0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:32.480 nineteen of the twenty people that works. So it was, 0:19:32.600 --> 0:19:35.280 you know, Jet, it was probably ten and ten, you know, 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:37.920 maybe sometimes fifteen and five not I love it, and 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:40.960 but it was it was a lot. When I push 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:45.000 he knows I can push in away that he has 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:48.359 to be her sturdy ship, but I can be the 0:19:48.480 --> 0:19:50.960 wave to rock it around a little bit and see 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:54.400 what comes up. Then towards the end of that four 0:19:54.440 --> 0:20:00.800 hour trajectory, my research became that gut, the gut feeling 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:03.800 is not just intuition, which is very important. My masters 0:20:03.880 --> 0:20:07.720 was in psychotherapy, so a big part of my life 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:11.960 and also my personality is if someone is suffering, I 0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:14.359 kind of want to know what's going on. This is 0:20:14.359 --> 0:20:17.360 also part of my Buddhist background is I've met thousands 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:19.679 of young women that would tell me what they're suffering 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:25.639 was right, So I naturally I don't want people to 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:30.040 be superficial with me at ever, it's almost kind of inappropriate. 0:20:30.119 --> 0:20:32.560 I think I don't want small talk. I want to 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:35.000 know what's really going on, and it's out of love. 0:20:35.240 --> 0:20:38.840 I really I really love people, and I think that 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:43.040 through someone sharing, everyone is healed because everyone is human 0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:46.720 and understands. Right. So there's that Trump moment. She just 0:20:46.800 --> 0:20:49.879 cuts it done, I'm not talking about it. Jad that 0:20:50.040 --> 0:20:53.399 she couldn't say anything, and I actually shared a story 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:57.000 about my life in that moment, and I think Dolly 0:20:57.160 --> 0:20:59.600 was like, where the hell is this girl? What is 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:03.280 she talking about? The silent little She wasn't even supposed 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:05.720 to be here. She was supposed to be here. What's 0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:11.000 her name again? You know it's for him? Why why 0:21:11.119 --> 0:21:13.600 did Jad bring this? For? Who is where she come from? 0:21:13.800 --> 0:21:16.000 She had no idea and I had this my huge 0:21:16.040 --> 0:21:18.440 curly hair. It's like I looked like I was like 0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:21.320 and m and I was very quiet until this moment 0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:25.359 where I just share the story and then she still 0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:28.159 answers in a quick way. And then I go in 0:21:28.280 --> 0:21:31.840 and say, hey, didn't you want to protect him? Like 0:21:31.960 --> 0:21:33.840 didn't you just want to protect this person in the room? 0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:36.240 And that's when she said yes. I wanted to say, 0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:41.400 let's pray for the president. Why don't we pray for Mr? 0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:46.359 And I knew I sensed what the answers, but I 0:21:46.400 --> 0:21:48.639 didn't know what her answer was. Right. But that's because 0:21:48.680 --> 0:21:51.760 I knew about Porter. I knew about her family, I 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:54.480 knew about her heartbreak. I knew about things that she 0:21:54.520 --> 0:21:56.399 wouldn't even share with us, and so I knew that, 0:21:56.600 --> 0:21:58.159 and so I shared a story that I felt like 0:21:58.280 --> 0:22:01.520 she would know. I got it, And I think that 0:22:01.800 --> 0:22:04.639 was true. I think she goes, Oh, she gets it. 0:22:05.160 --> 0:22:07.560 She's not trying to get me, she's not trying to 0:22:07.600 --> 0:22:10.840 trick me. She gets it. And when we left that interview, 0:22:11.800 --> 0:22:15.040 we were so high. Jad and I had reporters high. 0:22:15.760 --> 0:22:18.600 We could not believe the places we went. That four 0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:21.280 and a half trajectory was the foundation of the entire series. 0:22:21.960 --> 0:22:26.520 And she cried twice. So I became this kind of 0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:29.400 good luck charm. I became like the lucky rabbits fook 0:22:29.400 --> 0:22:31.200 for jab After that, he said, Okay, I'm taking that 0:22:31.840 --> 0:22:34.600 was your goal, like you achieved it way too early 0:22:34.720 --> 0:22:38.160 in your trajectory. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break 0:22:38.200 --> 0:22:48.240 and we'll be right back. Okay, we're back. Can I 0:22:48.280 --> 0:22:51.880 ask you when you come up with questions? I as 0:22:51.920 --> 0:22:56.520 someone relatively to question asking in a formal sense rather 0:22:56.560 --> 0:23:00.600 than a cocktail party sense. Um, I would to say 0:23:00.800 --> 0:23:04.720 I have no idea what I'm doing, And I go 0:23:04.960 --> 0:23:09.200 back and forth between coming up with questions that I 0:23:09.720 --> 0:23:12.760 truly want to know the answer to and coming up 0:23:12.800 --> 0:23:15.639 with questions that I think will elicit the types of 0:23:16.320 --> 0:23:20.639 answers from my um guests, that readers, that readers, that 0:23:20.800 --> 0:23:23.560