WEBVTT - How can we feel less alone during — and after — COVID-19? 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:06.200 Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curic and welcome to Next Question today. 0:00:06.240 --> 0:00:09.440 As we venture intoday number who knows what of life 0:00:09.440 --> 0:00:12.160 in the age of shelter in place and social distancing, 0:00:12.880 --> 0:00:16.560 I want to talk about loneliness. It's a feeling like 0:00:16.800 --> 0:00:20.319 love and loss that is so universal that it's the 0:00:20.400 --> 0:00:24.520 backbone to untold number of songs that will make your heartbreak, 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:31.840 like this nineteen sixty two classic by Bobby Bentonly I'm 0:00:32.000 --> 0:00:40.319 Mr Roy Orbison's is a little more upbeat. And then 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:43.800 there's this one from John Prine, who died from COVID 0:00:43.920 --> 0:00:55.080 nineteen on April seven, called speed of the Sound of Loneliness. See, 0:00:58.680 --> 0:01:01.160 loneliness was already start need to be accepted as a 0:01:01.200 --> 0:01:05.920 global problem even before this pandemic hit. And now, whether 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:10.480 you're alone or surrounded by people, that feeling of loneliness 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:15.120 may be even more profound. It's not only dangerous for 0:01:15.160 --> 0:01:18.280 your mental health and can lead to problems like addiction. 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:23.720 According to a recent report by the National Academies of Sciences, Medicine, 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:28.480 and Engineering, loneliness is also tied to an increase in 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:34.800 heart disease, stroke, diabetes, and dementia. But this isn't news 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:38.760 to Dr Vivic Murphy, loneliness is not existing in isolation. 0:01:39.120 --> 0:01:42.319 That's not just a bad feeling, but it's actually increasing 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:47.760 our risk or other conditions that are deeply impactful to 0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:53.320 our life. As Surgeon General under President Obama, he identified 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:59.200 loneliness as this country's fastest growing public health crisis. Loneliness 0:01:59.280 --> 0:02:03.440 is a subject to state. It's a feeling that the 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:07.160 connections that you need are greater than the connections that 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:10.280 you have, and that gap is what creates loneliness. It's 0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:13.840 distinct from the objective state of isolation, which is more 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:16.320 of a description of the number of people you have 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:19.920 around you. So I can be surrounded by hundreds of 0:02:19.960 --> 0:02:23.160 other people, like a student on a college campus or 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:25.639 someone who works in a large office setting, but I 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:28.880 can still feel profoundly alone. And by contrast, I may 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:31.160 only have a couple of people around me, but may 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:35.600 feel deeply fulfilled. It's about the quality of those relationships. 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:39.040 It's about can I be myself when I'm with somebody else? 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:42.000 Can I show up as my whole self? Um? Do 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:44.919 I believe that they accept me for who I am? 0:02:45.000 --> 0:02:48.120 And can I do the same for them? His new 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:51.400 book Together, The Healing Power of human connection in a 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:57.640 sometimes lonely world explores this often invisible epidemic, which leads 0:02:57.680 --> 0:03:00.840 me to my next question. Long before we were forced 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:05.480 into this physical separation, how did we all become so disconnected? 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:08.320 And what can we do to take better care of 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:12.160 each other? And who better to ask than Dr Murphy? 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:14.960 But first I wanted to see how he was doing, 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:20.200 you know, like everyone else, I've I've just been trying 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:24.680 to make sense of this and find some some blends 0:03:24.680 --> 0:03:27.760 of order and the chaos that's become my life. You know, 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:31.799 I'm working at home now, and I'm trying to take 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:34.320 care of our two kids, who are three and two. 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:37.480 My wife is in the same boat. Thankfully. We are 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:40.760 down in Miami, Florida with my parents and my sister. 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:42.960 This is where I grew up and most of my 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:46.280 family is still here. But I have a ninety year 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:49.680 old grandmother at home who recently fractured her head and 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:52.920 we're worried about her health. My parents are also, you know, 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:57.640 in their early seventies, and so we're concerned about their exposure. 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:00.960 So we're grateful to be together, but figuring out how 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:03.960 to keep everyone safe, especially when my father and sister 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:08.760 are seeing patients and clinic is a daunting prospect and 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:11.200 it certainly is a great source of stress right now. 0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:14.960 So they're treating patients and then they're coming back home. 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:19.400 Are you worried about that? We're worried about them. We're 0:04:19.400 --> 0:04:24.279 worried about my grandmother. Um. We were particularly worried about 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:28.040 them because, like many doctors around the country, they've had 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:31.400 a really hard time getting masks, so they have had 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:35.760 to see patients sometimes without the protection that they need 0:04:35.920 --> 0:04:40.080 for themselves, and that makes work even riskier. You know, 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:43.840 they still go because they want to serve the patients 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:46.640 who need them, and they've tried to they've tried to 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:52.360 convert as many appointments to teleconferencing type consultations and such, 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:54.400 but you know, there are times where you need to 0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:57.920 see somebody in person, need to examine them, and so 0:04:57.960 --> 0:05:00.640 they're still seeing patients on the limited asis. So yeah, 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:04.040 I do worry about them. I worry about my grandmother 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:06.159 at home. I worry about my mother being exposed, and 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:09.560 I certainly worry about all the other friends I have 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:11.600 who are doctors and nurses in the front lines, who 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:14.719 are struggling to take care of patients without masks and 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:19.240 gowns and gloves. It's so infuriating to me that they 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:24.880 are doing so much for the public without proper protection, 0:05:25.000 --> 0:05:29.400 not only for themselves, but of course they could potentially 0:05:29.480 --> 0:05:32.800 spread it to other people as well. We're going to 0:05:32.920 --> 0:05:37.719 talk about your book and about loneliness specifically, but as 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:42.280 someone who was the Surgeon General under President Obama, why 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:48.000 weren't we better prepared for this? Having been through Ebola 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:52.200 and Zeka during the Obama administration. A couple of things 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:55.599 that we learned is one is that you're always going 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:59.760 to stumble during these responses when you're responding to something new. 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:03.480 But what matters most of all is how you respond 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:06.920 to those stumbles, how quickly do get up, how transparent 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:10.240 are you in the process, and how quickly do you 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:13.640 learn from the mistakes that you made. The other thing 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:17.240 that really matters is that you lead with science and 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:21.320 with scientists. And this is not always easy because when 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:23.920 you get in front of the cameras in the briefing 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:29.080 room in the White House, it is incredibly compelling, and 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:31.680 to be able to get up there and say something positive, 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:35.719 you know, there's a huge uh. You know, in internal instincts, 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:37.240 you have to want to make people happy, to make 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:39.680 them feel better in a time of panic, and you 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:42.800 have to do that while also not stretching the truth 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:47.120 or misrepresenting science. And one that's why it's particularly so 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:50.480 important that not only elected leaders use science and the 0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:53.520 decision making that they put also that they put scientists 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:56.680 in front of the microphone and give them the opportunity 0:06:56.720 --> 0:06:59.400 to speak directly to the public about what we're learning 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:02.440 about the pandemic. I think when I look at the 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:05.680 current response, I think, yes, there were some stumbles, you know, 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:09.120 early on when it came to getting testing up and running. 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:12.400 To be fair, this was a pandemic that's greater than 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:15.760 really anything that we have seen perhaps in the last century. 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:19.600 So there's an extraordinary phenomenon that they were faced with here. 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:23.239 But what I think were I think they could probably 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:26.880 be stronger and almost certainly do better, is when it 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:31.360 comes to making evidence based decisions, pulling out the stops 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:34.920 and using every level we have to make sure that 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:38.640 our healthcare workers have the materials that they need, and 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:43.360 whether that means activating the the d p A earlier, 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:45.400 which was a lot of that gives the government ability 0:07:46.320 --> 0:07:50.520 for the Defense Production Act that's right. So whether it 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:54.840 means activating the Defense Production Act earlier and using every 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:57.800 lever to take over the supply chain and ensure that 0:07:57.840 --> 0:08:01.680 we're both producing and distributing materials where they need to go, 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:04.120 you know, there are several things I think that we 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:09.000 could have been uh, just bolder and stronger and quicker 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:11.840 to do when it came to this response. And the 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:15.880 reason that speed matters so much is that when it 0:08:15.920 --> 0:08:19.320 comes to pandemic response, speed equals life saved. If you 0:08:19.320 --> 0:08:22.520 look at the curves the model of the models that 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:24.960 have been constructed not just in the US but around 0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:27.840 the world of the pandemic response effort, what you see 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:32.240 is that even a one day delay in instituting stay 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:37.040 at home measures or a strict mitigation efforts actually increases 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:40.640 significantly the number of lives that are ultimately lost. So 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:43.240 speed is of the essence here. The last thing I 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:45.719 would say is about communication, though you know, one of 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:48.640 the things that it was abundantly I think clear to 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:52.000 many of us, both in republican and democratic administrations during 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:56.960 these kind of responses, is that the most important asset 0:08:57.040 --> 0:08:59.400 you have in this kind of response is public trust, 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:03.680 and you have to preserve that and treat it as 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:07.720 a as a sacred bond and a sacred investment, if 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:11.160 you will, And that means that you've got to make 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:14.160 sure you're communicating openly and honestly with the public about 0:09:14.200 --> 0:09:15.839 what you know and what you don't know. And the 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:19.000 reason trust is so important is because during pandemics like this, 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:20.840 there are times where you're going to need people to 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:23.760 take action that might be quite painful for them to do, 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:26.800 but it is essential to be able to get the 0:09:26.840 --> 0:09:29.520 pandemic under control. And we're seeing that right now where 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:32.520 we're having to ask people to stay at home and 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:34.680 to not go to work, not go to school, not 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:37.840 go to college, not visit their friends. This is extremely 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:43.280 painful both economically and socially and emotionally for people. But 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:46.199 people will only follow what you're telling them to do 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:49.680 if they trust you, and so you you can't squander 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:54.280 that trust by stretching their truth or by contradicting each 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:56.920 other being inconsistent in your message. You've got to be 0:09:57.040 --> 0:09:59.959 very clear and how you communicate. Many of the people 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:03.560 listening right now are focused on keeping their families safe, 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:08.200 but you could change one letter in that word, and 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:12.800 they're also focused on keeping themselves and their families sane, 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:19.719 and that's where the topic of loneliness comes in because 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:24.520 for many people, they are sheltered in place by themselves. 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:30.880 It's hard enough with a family getting along with a spouse, homeschooling, 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:36.520 working from home. The pressures are really unparalleled, I think. 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:40.719 But then you have people who are all by themselves. 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:45.720 And we're really here to talk about loneliness today because 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:49.400 that's something that you've been focused on for a few 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:53.240 years now. You decided to take this issue on when 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:57.400 you were the surgeon General in the Obama administration, and 0:10:57.440 --> 0:11:02.480 I'm curious how it caught your tension and why, O Katy. 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:04.880 I didn't think that I would focus on loneliness. When 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:07.440 I began my tenure, I had spent a lot of 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:10.600 time thinking about what my priorities would be. I had 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:13.960 in fact, spoken and testified in front of the Senate 0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:16.960 and shared what my priorities would be, and loneliness was 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:19.640 not on that list. But what happened to me is 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:23.400 I was really educated by people around the country who 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:26.480 invited me to their homes and into town hall meetings 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:28.960 in their communities, and you being ad to tell me 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:33.520 stories about what it was that was on their mind. Yeah, 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:36.360 I've been going to those meetings with usually a simple question, 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:39.199 which is how can I help? And I heard stories 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:43.480 that were not entirely surprising, about opiod addiction, about violence 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:48.240 and communities, about people's struggles with depression, and anxiety by 0:11:48.280 --> 0:11:51.560 their worries that their children might be using social media 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:55.600 too much. But what was interesting in what I did 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:58.360 not expect to hear was it behind so many of 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:01.440 these stories, where threads of lonelines us, with so many 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:03.360 people saying to me, you know, I feel like I 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:05.360 have to deal with all of these issues on my own. 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:08.160 I feel like no one has my back. I feel 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:11.800 like I disappeared tomorrow wouldn't matter. I just feel invisible. 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:14.920 And so even though people didn't come up to me 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:17.199 saying hi, my name is Vebic or my name is 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:20.160 Katie and I'm struggling with loneliness, when they would say 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:23.000 those things, it made me wonder if they felt alone. 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:26.880 So I began surfacing it more proactively in conversation, and 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:29.880 what I experienced also surprised me again, which was that 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:34.679 I saw these visceral looks of recognition in people's faces, 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:38.400 saw it in their eyes, that kind of recognition that said, 0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:42.000 I've felt this before, or people who are close to 0:12:42.040 --> 0:12:44.800 me have experienced this, and I'm aware of it. And 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:46.600 that was true. Whether I was talking to people in 0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:50.040 remote villages in Alaska, whether I was talking to members 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:54.400 of Congress in DC or to parents in Oklahoma, people 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:57.920 seemed to deeply connect with the issue of loneliness, and 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:00.439 they weren't always comfortable with it. In fact, they often 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:04.679 felt a sense of shame when admitting to their own loneliness. 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:07.520 But it was familiar, and that was my first signal 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:10.640 that there was something deeper going on in the country 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:13.560 that I had not previously paid enough attention to. I 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:15.720 had noticed it in my own life. I had struggled 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:18.040 with loneliness and not a lot as a child, and 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:21.200 many times during adulthood, including during my time a surgeon general, 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:24.840 I had seen loneliness a lot among my patients, noting 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:27.199 that so many of the people who came to our 0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:30.679 hospital and sought care came alone and at some of 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:33.600 the most critical moments of life, during major illnesses when 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:36.600 they had to make decisions about treatment, and even Katie 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:39.600 at the time of death, that they're only people who 0:13:39.640 --> 0:13:44.040 were with them were They're my fellow doctors and nurses 0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:46.800 in the hospital, but there was nobody else who was 0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:49.280 there to witness those critical moments and help them in 0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:53.000 their decision making. So I had seen loneliness, I had 0:13:53.000 --> 0:13:55.280 seen it up close, I had felt it personally, but 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:58.720 I had no idea, Katie, how common it was. And 0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:01.480 it was those experience, as it was those conversations that 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:05.440 include me into something that I had been missing. Tell 0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:09.400 me about your own experiences with loneliness as a child 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:13.959 um as as a child of immigrants. I know that 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:20.680 you struggled with feeling different and alone. I did, Katie. 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:23.800 You know I I always really blessed to have some 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:26.520 amazing people in my life, most of all my parents 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:30.440 and sister, who who were just my ultimate safety nea 0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:33.680 and whenever I came home, I felt safe and secure. 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:37.920 I felt loved, I felt seen, I felt value. But 0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:40.960 school was a different matter entirely. When I would go 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:44.120 to school as a very shy kid who had trouble 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:47.800 approaching other kids, I found it hard to make friends. 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:50.080 And one of the scariest times of the day for 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:52.680 me was not when a test was being administered. It 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:54.920 was actually lunchtime, when I had to go to the 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:57.440 cafeteria and wonder if I was going to be sitting alone, 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:01.920 and that makes me cry of the Well, it turns 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:04.640 out I wasn't alone in this loneliness. But there's so 0:15:04.680 --> 0:15:08.440 many young people, you know, and people who are older now, 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:11.040 when they think back on their their times in elementary school, 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:15.400 they recall moments like this. And what's so interesting about 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:19.200 loneliness among kids is that we tend to focus a 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:22.680 lot on bullying as the experience that is really traumatic 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:25.640 and harmful to children, and with good reason. It's common, 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:30.119 it's consequential, we should pay attention to it. But loneliness 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:33.000 is interesting because even though it can be a byproduct 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:35.160 of bullying, even though it can be a risk factor 0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:39.600 for bullying, it's also its own separate thing. When she 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:43.160 would peek kids experience of loneliness, often what they'll say is, 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:47.080 nobody did anything bad to me. They just pretended I 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:50.240 didn't exist. They just didn't notice that I was even there. 0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:54.320 And that is the experience that I found an interview 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:57.479 after an interview with parents who had kids struggling with loneliness, 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:01.000 that was true to their own experience. And so for me, 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:05.160 you know, thinking about those moments in elementary school, thinking 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:07.960 about how I would just wait and watch the clock 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:10.680 and be so excited when I finally hit three o'clock 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:12.440 in the bell rang, so I could just run out 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:15.920 to the front and seeing my mother waiting in the 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:18.120 car for me and jump in and go home. When 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:22.280 I think about those moments, um, I'm struck by by 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:24.080 a couple of things. One is the shame that I 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:26.600 felt around feeling so lonely. You know, to this day, 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:29.240 i'd actually never talked to my parents about that loneliness 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:33.000 that I experienced. Yeah, I never have, and at the 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:36.760 time I didn't because I was ashamed. I thought that 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:39.280 saying that I was lonely was like saying, you know, 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:41.880 I was I wasn't fit enough to make friends, or 0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:44.480 I wasn't likable. I was socially deficient in some way. 0:16:45.440 --> 0:16:47.480 Now I don't tell them about it or talk to 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:49.760 them about it, not because I'm ashamed of it, but 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:51.960 because I don't want them to feel bad. I don't 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:53.960 want them to think that I was in pain as 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:55.840 a child and they didn't know about it, or that 0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:58.440 they did something wrong, because they didn't do anything wrong. Oh, 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:01.200 thank goodness, you had them because I as you tell 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:04.200 the story of the VIC I think about kids who 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:08.560 don't have loving parents and are lonely at school. And 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:11.760 I know your loneliness was exacerbated by the fact that 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:14.639 you're you know, you're Indian, and a lot of people 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:20.359 didn't appreciate or understand your family special customs and traditions. 0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:22.800 It was an interesting thing because I went to a 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:26.000 school that had growing up in Miami, Florida, that had 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:32.399 a large African American and Latino population, and diversity was 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:36.600 is there in some respects in the school, Yet in 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:39.600 terms of my own cultural background, there was nobody else 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:41.760 other than me and my sister in the school who 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:44.479 were of Indian descent. Now that in and of itself 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:47.400 wasn't problematic, except that, you know, we found that many 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:51.760 kids who didn't understand what kind of Indian we were would, uh, 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:54.040 would think that we were Native American, would call me, 0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:56.639 you know, tomahawk boy, would make all of these jokes about, 0:17:57.440 --> 0:18:00.880 you know, about Native American culture, which you know, frankly 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:04.479 didn't even apply to me, but felt offensive nonetheless, And 0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:07.159 they were all of these um sort of It was 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:11.200 around the time and that the movie Indiana Jones was made. 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:14.040 And this may not be remarkable to most people, but 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:17.080 for people of Indian descent, that movie was highly traumatic 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:21.560 because they painted this picture of India that was inaccurate 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:24.040 and frankly quite offensive. You know. So we had all 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:27.600 these kids in school who thought that we ate monkey brains, uh, 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:30.000 you know, and who thought that we ate cockroaches and 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:32.520 and and all kinds of insects, and they just thought 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:34.440 it was all disgusting. You know where we came from, 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:36.280 but they had no idea what it was like. But 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:39.240 they took this from Indiana. Jones and the Temple of Doom. 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:42.600 That's so interesting. Yeah, And it's funny when I when 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:45.480 I talked to the Indian men and women who were 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:48.320 of my age and when I mentioned that movie, I've 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:51.960 seen many of them shutter because they recall these conversations 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:54.159 that they had to have with kids in elementary school 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:57.119 informing them that no, they did not have cockroaches for dinner. No, 0:18:57.280 --> 0:19:00.840 that's not something that we eat. This shows how shows 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:07.399 how impactful cultural uh, you know, events like a movie 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:10.280 like that. I would never strike me that that was 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:19.000 very traumatic and triggering for for people in that community. 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:20.959 It was. And you know overtime, you know, as I 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:24.080 got older, it was easier to have a thoughtful conversation 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:25.919 with people and say, hey, that's actually not what we 0:19:26.000 --> 0:19:28.280 do at home. In fact, most of us are vegetarian. 0:19:29.560 --> 0:19:32.320 But but you know, in elementary school, when you're in 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:34.399 fourth or sixth grade, like you know, the conversations a 0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:36.480 bit different. Middle school can be a little rough. So 0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:40.600 you know, I would say that those experience, as painful 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:43.800 as they were, they certainly gave me an appreciation for 0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:48.119 how difficult this social experience can be for children in school, 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:52.040 especially in a culture that's largely built around extroverts, and 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:55.920 where the notion of you know, being alone or even 0:19:55.960 --> 0:19:58.159 wanting to spend time alone and sort of looked at 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:03.399 as evidence that something be wrong with you. Up next, 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:06.320 how we can avoid a social recession in the wake 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:10.119 of this pandemic and use this time to appreciate and 0:20:10.320 --> 0:20:26.360 strengthen our most important relationships. At the start of two 0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:30.080 thousand and fifteen, after being appointed the nineteenth Surgeon General 0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:33.600 of the United States, Vivic Murphy criss crossed the country 0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:36.879 on a listening tour, which is where he was surprised 0:20:36.920 --> 0:20:42.160 to find that loneliness was an almost ubiquitous experience among Americans. 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:48.560 It was a realization that would reshape his mission. You know, 0:20:48.640 --> 0:20:50.919 traditionally the Office of the Surgeon General has focused on 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:55.240 deeper would causes like physical activity and nutrition, but this 0:20:55.320 --> 0:20:58.720 was an unexpected one and I started to see very 0:20:58.800 --> 0:21:01.399 clearly in these conversations, and as I delve into the 0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:04.680 science behind loneliness, of which there was a surprising amount, 0:21:05.400 --> 0:21:09.240 I started to realize that loneliness is not existing in isolation. 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:12.840 That's not just a bad feeling, but it's actually increasing 0:21:12.840 --> 0:21:18.240 our risk or other conditions that are deeply impactful to 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:23.160 our life, conditions like cardiovascar disease and depression and anxiety 0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:27.320 and dementia. There was some very interesting studies out of 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:31.480 Brigham Young University showing that loneliness is strongly associated with 0:21:31.520 --> 0:21:34.960 a reduction in lifespan as well, a reduction that is 0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:39.439 similar in magnitude to smoking fifteen cigarettes a day and 0:21:39.520 --> 0:21:44.359 greater than the magnitude of mortality impact seen with obesity 0:21:44.440 --> 0:21:47.679 or with sedentary living. But I was also seeing the 0:21:47.800 --> 0:21:50.840 stories of people who were struggling with opioid addiction and 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:54.800 with addiction to alcohol that there was this profound sense 0:21:54.840 --> 0:21:58.200 of loneliness that they spoke about that just came through 0:21:58.359 --> 0:22:01.000 in their stories and the writing of the book. I 0:22:01.440 --> 0:22:05.080 I delved more deeply into these stories and visited people 0:22:05.520 --> 0:22:07.639 who had spent many years in prison as well to 0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:12.040 understand more about the origins of the life of violence 0:22:12.119 --> 0:22:15.679 as they described it that they had led and there too, 0:22:15.920 --> 0:22:18.520 with so many of them told me was that it 0:22:18.600 --> 0:22:21.480 was their loneliness at a young age had led them 0:22:21.480 --> 0:22:24.880 to join gangs. Um it was a sense of loneliness 0:22:24.880 --> 0:22:27.040 and still a nod at them, you know, during their 0:22:27.080 --> 0:22:30.320 time in prison and when they got out afterwards. So 0:22:30.520 --> 0:22:34.080 again and again and again, it seemed that loneliness was 0:22:34.119 --> 0:22:37.520 not only common, but it was driving us to do 0:22:37.680 --> 0:22:40.600 things that were often harmful to ourselves and to the 0:22:40.640 --> 0:22:43.560 people around us. When I read your book that I 0:22:43.640 --> 0:22:47.040 was thinking about all the mass shootings that I've covered 0:22:47.640 --> 0:22:52.240 and the fact that the shooter, the perpetrator, is often 0:22:52.280 --> 0:22:57.879 described as a loner. So I started thinking about violence, 0:22:58.400 --> 0:23:03.200 gun violence and other kinds of violence and thinking that 0:23:03.640 --> 0:23:09.160 loneliness was at the foundation of those events as well. Yes, 0:23:09.240 --> 0:23:11.760 and it's true when you look at the notes that 0:23:11.800 --> 0:23:16.359 are left by the perpetrators of mass shootings, they often 0:23:16.400 --> 0:23:21.760 do speak to loneliness, often directly. So I want caveat, 0:23:21.760 --> 0:23:23.920 don't want to make here is is The message here 0:23:24.000 --> 0:23:27.159 is not that everyone who's lonely is dangerous or violent 0:23:27.240 --> 0:23:30.359 in some way. But the message here is that when 0:23:30.359 --> 0:23:33.879 we don't address our loneliness, it can manifest in a 0:23:33.920 --> 0:23:36.280 whole variety of ways. It can make us shrink back 0:23:36.640 --> 0:23:40.720 deeper into our shell, and we can experience greater depression 0:23:41.080 --> 0:23:45.280 and anxiety. It can cause us to be more aggressive 0:23:45.400 --> 0:23:48.679 or angry or irritable with people, even in our own family, 0:23:48.720 --> 0:23:51.520 people that we love. Um, it can lead us to 0:23:51.640 --> 0:23:55.560 reach for things to numb the pain that we're feeling, 0:23:55.920 --> 0:23:58.280 things that may not be good for us, like alcohol 0:23:58.640 --> 0:24:03.320 or unhealthy food. And so as we think about this 0:24:03.520 --> 0:24:06.720