Speaker 1: We have. We have a pretty disturbing classic episode tonight.
Speaker 1: We were talking about this off air. Do you guys
Speaker 1: remember the Order of the Nine Angles.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it kind of burned its way right into my memory.
Speaker 2: We were just talking off Mike about it. It's involves
Speaker 2: individuals claiming to be part of this satanic organization or
Speaker 2: actually part of it.
Speaker 3: But that's the problem.
Speaker 2: The lines are very, very blurry, and it involves everything
Speaker 2: from coerce to suicide to purported creation of like almost
Speaker 2: what you might call snuff material.
Speaker 3: Yeah, gets back to a lot of older movements. But
Speaker 3: then I remember then there a guy named Miyatt or something.
Speaker 1: Like that in this Yes, yeah, yeah, not Matt, but
Speaker 1: yeah Mayatt. Mayatt just some evil stuff, right, similar to
Speaker 1: later things we see in the Republic of Korea, right,
Speaker 1: and online crime course innocent people into self harm. We
Speaker 1: know that there are a lot of folks in the
Speaker 1: crowd who consider ourselves Satanists, but not theistic Satanists. Theistic
Speaker 1: Satanism is the idea that all the stuff you've read
Speaker 1: about heaven and hell and good and evil is real,
Speaker 1: and that you knowing that would choose to be on
Speaker 1: the side of evil. That is maybe the best beginning
Speaker 1: to the Order of Nine angles from UFOs to psychic
Speaker 1: powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events.
Speaker 1: You can turn back now or learn the stuff they
Speaker 1: don't want you to know. A production of iHeart Radios
Speaker 1: How Stuff Works.
Speaker 3: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is My
Speaker 3: name is Nolan.
Speaker 1: They call me Bed and we were joined as always
Speaker 1: with our super producer Paul Mission Control deck. And most importantly,
Speaker 1: you are you. You are here and that makes this
Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know. Quick check in
Speaker 1: is we want to do recently? How are you guys?
Speaker 3: Feeling feeling good? Did some traveling? Now I'm back. It's
Speaker 3: good to be with you, guys.
Speaker 2: Good to be with you, dude in the sacred space.
Speaker 2: That is stuff they don't want you to know.
Speaker 3: That's right. Hey, I got to know. None of you
Speaker 3: will ever hear it, but I got to be on
Speaker 3: an episode of Ridiculous History this weekend.
Speaker 1: That's right. That's right.
Speaker 2: And the reason that no one of us will ever
Speaker 2: hear is because we forgot to record it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we recorded a version of it, that's true while
Speaker 1: you were on Adventures, Matt.
Speaker 3: Well, there we go. See. It was just an ephemeral
Speaker 3: moment that occurred, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I hope
Speaker 3: you guys did too. Oh gosh, you saved the show. Okay,
Speaker 3: I don't accept your what you say, but it was
Speaker 3: it was a lot of fun.
Speaker 2: Well, let's paint a picture real quick. Matt was the
Speaker 2: voice of the super producer figure in the you know
Speaker 2: scenario like super much like super Producer Paul mission Control Deck,
Speaker 2: but he was super Producer Matt, the mad Man Frederick,
Speaker 2: and he decided it would be fun, and it ended
Speaker 2: up being very fun if he was off stage like
Speaker 2: the voice of God, like the man behind the curtain,
Speaker 2: and he chimed in with great quotes and did voices
Speaker 2: and sound effects and it was just a delight.
Speaker 3: Man. All I said were words written by mister Ben Bowlin.
Speaker 1: Oh a lot of those were quotations from Richard Warren Sears.
Speaker 3: Okay, well, then big ups, Richard.
Speaker 1: And you did some great re enactments, so we I
Speaker 1: hope you will be able to join us for a
Speaker 1: recorded episode of that show one day. You also, can
Speaker 1: we mention this on air? You were in New Orleans.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I went to Crime Con and just hung out
Speaker 3: for a little bit, met a wonderful couple the last
Speaker 3: names white and Black. They were they were really awesome.
Speaker 3: And uh, I did some moderating of a panel. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: it was. It was a lot of fun.
Speaker 1: We've been doing more and more of these paneled things recently. No, no, Paul,
Speaker 1: I know, I know that despite trying to cajole you
Speaker 1: into talking on the shows, it's not really your bag.
Speaker 1: So maybe for a check in with you, we can
Speaker 1: get a thumb up or a thumb down? Is this
Speaker 1: a thumbs up or thumbs down?
Speaker 3: Day?
Speaker 1: Oh, that's a vigorous thumbs up.
Speaker 2: As a specific follow up question, Paul, I saw you
Speaker 2: at movies the other day going to see a film.
Speaker 2: Was that thumbs up or thumbs down? Film? Double thumbs up?
Speaker 2: You gotta remind me what it was called again, Diamentino.
Speaker 2: And it seemed like a really kind of interesting, twisty
Speaker 2: not sci fi, but kind of an interesting, absurdist, weird
Speaker 2: kind of ride. I'm looking forward to checking it out.
Speaker 3: All right.
Speaker 1: All right, Well, here we are again, folks, and we
Speaker 1: hope that your check in with yourself has gone well.
Speaker 1: Feel free to tell us about it. If you discovered
Speaker 1: something especially strange. You can you don't have to wait.
Speaker 1: You can just pause the episode and call us now
Speaker 1: because we have a call in number.
Speaker 3: That's right, We're one eight three to three cd wy All.
Speaker 2: I was saying at once, make it more and.
Speaker 3: Less intelligible more.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's fun. People like rituals. Well, it feels like
Speaker 2: a ritual. It feels like we're summoning something when we
Speaker 2: say that.
Speaker 1: And here we are again, folks, conspiracy realists, long time
Speaker 1: and first time listeners, thank you for tuning in. We
Speaker 1: have spent several recent episodes diving into the true crime
Speaker 1: aspects of this show. Proven conspiracies, many horrifying or disquieting
Speaker 1: things that were acts of mundane human beings, just kind
Speaker 1: of crappy people who were self important and or had
Speaker 1: power and wanted more of it. That's kind of how
Speaker 1: this stuff goes often. But don't worry. We have never
Speaker 1: forgotten about the supernatural side of this show, the world
Speaker 1: of the occult, the world of the hidden, the esoteric,
Speaker 1: the unknown. Today we are delving into the controversial world
Speaker 1: of what is called theistic Satanism and the strange story
Speaker 1: of something called the Order of nine angles. Angles not angels. Well,
Speaker 1: what the heck is this thing? You might ask. The
Speaker 1: best way to answer this question is to begin laying
Speaker 1: down some groundwork first. So here are the facts. Most
Speaker 1: people are cartoonishly wrong about Satanism. It's just true, you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, when you hear satanism, you probably think about some
Speaker 3: of the imagery that I myself have placed into videos
Speaker 3: about Satanism. Robed figures, bapphamets everywhere, horns of goats, yea,
Speaker 3: and certainly pentagrams, pentacles, all of those kinds of things.
Speaker 3: The chanting yes is definitely one and oh always almost
Speaker 3: always black, like just black clothing with some hints of red,
Speaker 3: or maybe all red with some hints of black, ahead
Speaker 3: of a certainly heads.
Speaker 1: Of goods, black goat with a thousand young.
Speaker 3: Yes, sacrifices both animal and human right right.
Speaker 1: The idea here is there's a secretive group of humans
Speaker 1: and maybe some not quite humans, opposed to the more
Speaker 1: publicly dominant narrative, ideology or religious movements of Christianity, Judaism, Islam.
Speaker 1: The people of the book right and the people who
Speaker 1: worshiped this monotheistic god who has in this entity's past
Speaker 1: had a conflict with an adversary sometimes called Lucifer more
Speaker 1: old scratch, the devil and Diablo. What are other good
Speaker 1: devil names, like the actual devil not demons? Yes, that's
Speaker 1: the one, yeah, and that the morning Star and the
Speaker 1: morning Star, right, God's number two, the light Bringer.
Speaker 3: That's a really good one.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it gets into that Promethean thing.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: So the idea here is for most people they think
Speaker 1: of stereotypical Satan or devil worshipers, they're picturing people who
Speaker 1: accept this sort of supernatural or religious narrative, right, that
Speaker 1: there is a God and God had an adversary of
Speaker 1: some sort who is known by these names. This was
Speaker 1: once an angel, first among the angels, and then it
Speaker 1: fell in rebellion and it took its fellow mutineers with it.
Speaker 1: And now these people who worship this fallen angel seek
Speaker 1: to spread this message and to transform this the mundane
Speaker 1: world into something closer to his infernal vision. They also
Speaker 1: seem to usually informally refer to Satan as a dude.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, And it's almost it's interesting how it's seen
Speaker 3: as And we actually talked to David Ike briefly about this,
Speaker 3: how there are these two opposing forces a force of
Speaker 3: light and of darkness essentially, or corruption on the other side,
Speaker 3: like creation and corruption.
Speaker 1: Some kind of duality bounces around in a lot of things, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and gnosticism as well, in Star Wars movies, Star Wars movies,
Speaker 1: and some animistic beliefs.
Speaker 3: I don't really know where I'm going with I'm just
Speaker 3: to say like that that really is such an old
Speaker 3: vision of how the universe functions within these sects or
Speaker 3: within these groups.
Speaker 1: So how accurate are these images that pop up when
Speaker 1: we hear the word, you know, Satanism or Satan worshippers.
Speaker 1: Luckily for us, they are not very accurate at all.
Speaker 1: There are several well let's call them genres of Satanism, right,
Speaker 1: and there are multiple interpretations of things that could be
Speaker 1: called Satan in these genres, or there are people's interpretation
Speaker 1: of what this thing called Satan actually means or represents.
Speaker 1: And without getting too into the weeds on old Boys identity,
Speaker 1: we'd like to refer you to our earlier video episode.
Speaker 1: There's all about the origins of Satan in Near Eastern
Speaker 1: and Western ideology.
Speaker 3: Can we even have a show called Are there Real
Speaker 3: Satan Worshippers? Or something? Oh? We do.
Speaker 1: We do have that as well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it dees into almost all the questions you
Speaker 3: might have like at the beginning of this.
Speaker 1: So we're skipping all of that. Yeah, So if you
Speaker 1: pause today's episode to call us and leave us a
Speaker 1: message telling us how you're doing, which, thank you by
Speaker 1: the way. If you did, feel free to posit again
Speaker 1: and watch those YouTube videos as long as you're not
Speaker 1: you know, driving or flying a plane or something like that.
Speaker 1: So let's assume you umposit it, and now you know
Speaker 1: all about the origins of satan and whether they're real
Speaker 1: Satan worshippers. As with any religion or religious movement, Satanism
Speaker 1: has numerous branches. It's more of a convenient umbrella term
Speaker 1: for some related beliefs rather than any specific dogma because
Speaker 1: they they have vastly different opinions. But they do have
Speaker 1: some commonalities, right they have They have a couple of
Speaker 1: things that they all generally agree on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, largely an interest in magic that can be played
Speaker 2: out in several ways, either like as some sort of psychodrama,
Speaker 2: which to me is a ritualized kind of performative kind
Speaker 2: of experience. Sure is that? Is there another way of
Speaker 2: looking at that well.
Speaker 1: It's uh, yeah, it's it's one in which the you know,
Speaker 1: we get catharsis, which is why people watch and participate
Speaker 1: in plays. So it's sort of an empowerment of Catharsis
Speaker 1: or a leveraging of that. So now the person who
Speaker 1: the person psychodramas everywhere, it's in Christianity, it's an innocuous
Speaker 1: version of psychodrama. Would be the re enactment of the
Speaker 1: birth of the Christ child, got it, which all the
Speaker 1: kids do in church. But in this stuff, they're like,
Speaker 1: I in this role, now am whatever.
Speaker 3: Deity I see.
Speaker 2: So really a performative ritual is kind of a good right.
Speaker 2: Or there's another kind of ritual which is maybe less performative.
Speaker 2: It would ascribe mystical events and much more of a
Speaker 2: magical power kind of to these acts, as opposed to
Speaker 2: the psychodrama, which to me maybe it implies that you're
Speaker 2: embodying it, but it's more a catharsist rather than some
Speaker 2: kind of like.
Speaker 1: Spell the first or the second little psychodrama. Psychodrama, Yeah,
Speaker 1: because the mystical event that would.
Speaker 3: Be that that is more of a spell.
Speaker 2: That is more of like saying I am doing this
Speaker 2: to create this effect, you know, in real time.
Speaker 1: And we can we can also explore an instance of that,
Speaker 1: but we would want people to know what's what's going
Speaker 1: on first. But yeah, so that's that's one thing, Yes,
Speaker 1: this interest in magic and the ritualized performance or inaction
Speaker 1: of magic. But that's not it, right, there's other stuff.
Speaker 2: There's also a sense of community, the creation of a
Speaker 2: community that defines roles and a hierarchy, a relationship between
Speaker 2: members somewhere between people who share a mystical pursuit to
Speaker 2: those who live according to a set of religious belief doctrine.
Speaker 3: And generally, when you're talking about a lot of this
Speaker 3: stuff and how they're forming their community, you're talking about
Speaker 3: people who really see this philosophy of a symbolic lucifer
Speaker 3: or satan, which is more about yourself, your own like
Speaker 3: the single member's nonconformity to society in almost every way
Speaker 3: or as many ways as are achievable.
Speaker 1: Right, philosophy thriving on They maybe instead of nonconformity, they
Speaker 1: might say something like the benefits of being true to oneself.
Speaker 3: Yes, And in that way, it's it's a lot of
Speaker 3: times about breaking your chains from a lot of societal's.
Speaker 1: Norms depending on the type of Satanists.
Speaker 3: Okay, okay, right.
Speaker 1: Because you know, there can be conformity with there can
Speaker 1: be internal conformity strictly enforced in groups that are externally nonconforming,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: Yes, it's a little.
Speaker 1: Bit of a securitiest way to put that point, but.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're right. The more there's some that focus a
Speaker 3: lot on individual like the individuality, others on like the
Speaker 3: actual sect.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and of course the last commonality not a big spoiler,
Speaker 1: some sort of reference to Satan, if not worship of
Speaker 1: a singular entity. And there there are many many Satanist groups,
Speaker 1: the best known of which are today are probably the
Speaker 1: Church of Satan Anton Leavey right, and the spin off
Speaker 1: of that the I almost called it the sequel of Set,
Speaker 1: the Temple of Set. It's sort of like how Golden
Speaker 1: Girls was a spinoff of Maud, but with Satan. That's
Speaker 1: a deep cut for Golden Girls fans. So the Church
Speaker 1: of Satan and the Temple of Set have this sort
Speaker 1: of low level hierarchical leadership and kind of a loosely
Speaker 1: agreed upon thing. We agree these following things and then
Speaker 1: do as they'll wilt. So I want to be very
Speaker 1: careful not to seem disrespectful of anyone's personal religious beliefs.
Speaker 1: If you were listening to this, odds are you are
Speaker 1: probably not in the Church of Satan, just because there
Speaker 1: are so many other religions with so many other adherents
Speaker 1: out there. But your personal beliefs are your own, as
Speaker 1: long as you're not inflicting them on anyone else, you know,
Speaker 1: or harming someone. It's our opinion that you can do
Speaker 1: what you want, you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely agreed.
Speaker 1: So with that all in mind, here are some just
Speaker 1: a few different types of Satanism, right, there's one that
Speaker 1: I think you were you're probably alluding to directly. They're
Speaker 1: matt rational Satanism. It's secularized. It comes about in the
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties. It's atheistic, meaning that there's not really a God,
Speaker 1: there's not They calling it Satanism is sort of using
Speaker 1: Satan as a stand in for something else. This was
Speaker 1: under the direction of the famous Anton Levey, an author
Speaker 1: and occultist based in The States, who you can find
Speaker 1: audio and video recordings of his voice. Sounds far less
Speaker 1: sinister than one would initially, you know, assume.
Speaker 3: It really does, and I will never understand why he
Speaker 3: didn't begin going like exclusively by Xander Levy because his
Speaker 3: I mean having s Zander totally has a middle name
Speaker 3: that's powerful.
Speaker 2: I just thought he looked like Ming the Merciless from
Speaker 2: the Flash Gordon movie.
Speaker 3: Oh okay, hm, wow, he really does interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, Well, Western society as a thing with bald
Speaker 1: or shaved head guys and goatee's.
Speaker 2: It's a very pointy goateee. It's a particular type of goatee.
Speaker 2: It's like that super angled kind of one.
Speaker 3: Yes and uh. And this this gentleman, I'm just gonna
Speaker 3: call him Xander. Yeah, go for it, man, or do
Speaker 3: as thou wilt see that. That's the whole of the law.
Speaker 3: He created the Satanic Bible. It still to this day
Speaker 3: remains available. You can find it. It's one of the
Speaker 3: most at least most available books that you can find
Speaker 3: about Satanism or the Satanic religion. And he formed this
Speaker 3: thing known as the Church of Satan that we've already mentioned.
Speaker 3: It is by far the most well known. It's the
Speaker 3: thing that is mentioned. Oh what's the what is that show?
Speaker 3: Oh gosh, why can't I think of it? It's on
Speaker 3: HBO it's a comedy about nerds. It's awesome, dead wood
Speaker 3: freaking No, what is it? What's it called, Paul, It's
Speaker 3: the Silicon.
Speaker 1: Valley, Jesus Silicon Valley.
Speaker 3: You'll see it mentioned or at least referenced heavily in
Speaker 3: Silicon Valley where there's a Satanist character who talks about
Speaker 3: Anthon Levey all the time. And again, as you said,
Speaker 3: it's it's all about atheism, it's about the individual essentially
Speaker 3: being empowered. And it really does have this nice symbolic
Speaker 3: mirror going on between you know, satan rebelling against God
Speaker 3: or whatever the large God is and then the Satanist
Speaker 3: rebelling against mainstream culture or mainstream religion.
Speaker 1: Right right, there is a nice symmetry to the structure
Speaker 1: of the philosophy. Right And it's exactly as you said.
Speaker 1: According to Levy, neither God nor Satan are actual beings,
Speaker 1: and this is heretical to many people who believe otherwise,
Speaker 1: even some Satanists or people who consider themselves such. The
Speaker 1: only God in this sort of Satanism is the person themselves,
Speaker 1: the individual. So Satan quote unquote, Satan is a symbol
Speaker 1: representing the qualities that Satanists embrace. So it's kind of
Speaker 1: like they took a character that they thought was cool
Speaker 1: and didn't think was real, like Superman or something, and
Speaker 1: they said, that's it. Those are the things you want
Speaker 1: to aspire to be. So invoking the name of Satan
Speaker 1: and other infernal names is a tool in the rituals
Speaker 1: to focus one's mind on the manifestation of those qualities
Speaker 1: and those workings.
Speaker 3: Tipping the hat to Alistair c of course.
Speaker 1: No, right, yeah, yeah, he's still in play.
Speaker 2: Have you guys seen Good Omens? Yeah, then you TV adaptation.
Speaker 1: I preferred it to the book. I found the book
Speaker 1: whimsical in a way that didn't really speak to me.
Speaker 1: But I know I'm gonna get some heat for that.
Speaker 2: I found that about the show. I couldn't make it
Speaker 2: through episode one. I thought it was a little too keatsy,
Speaker 2: and the CGI I really called too much attention to itself.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna give another shot, though.
Speaker 4: But Crowley is the name of the demon character, which
Speaker 4: is based on the self styled most evil or wicked
Speaker 4: man in the world, Alistair Crowley, famous famous sexual predator,
Speaker 4: heroin addict, and egomaniac.
Speaker 3: There you go, doing yeah to have it parties doing
Speaker 3: rituals in the middle of the Great Pyramid with his wife.
Speaker 1: Well, okay, that's that's true. I am being I am
Speaker 1: being a bit flippant about that because I think that
Speaker 1: guy gets more credit than he deserves. But but in
Speaker 1: some circles he is considered a pioneer.
Speaker 3: I've never done that.
Speaker 1: No, No, I would be surprised if you had. I
Speaker 1: don't know, it's just we can do an episode on that.
Speaker 1: Maybe I need to be more fair and come to
Speaker 1: terms with it. So the problem. The problem is that
Speaker 1: at certain points in Crowley's life, and this is a
Speaker 1: little bit of a soapbox for me, at certain points
Speaker 1: in Crowley's life he demonstrably functions more as a con
Speaker 1: artist than a true believer in someone's thing. Noh, if
Speaker 1: you're not. If you are a true believer in something
Speaker 1: and you're not hurting people, it doesn't matter what someone
Speaker 1: else believes about it, you know what I mean, it's
Speaker 1: your decision. But if you are an acting harm on
Speaker 1: people who you know I've not agreed to be in
Speaker 1: your shenanigans, or if you are pretending to believe something
Speaker 1: that you do not believe for the purpose of bilking
Speaker 1: the credulous. Then what are you? You're not You're not
Speaker 1: a leader of people. You're not you're not a holy being.
Speaker 1: You're You're the same as anybody playing a crooked game
Speaker 1: of three card Monti.
Speaker 2: And just for the record, Ming the Merciless and Out
Speaker 2: they look exactly the same. I just want to point
Speaker 2: that out.
Speaker 1: So Knowle's holding this. Yeah, I've got comics from The Merciless.
Speaker 2: Look that's them. That's that's Levey and Ming the Merciless.
Speaker 1: Right, they modeled it after after being but several other ones. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because there there are other characters that appear in Oh,
Speaker 1: what's that Flash Gordon comics? Do you guys remember Flash
Speaker 1: Gordon comics.
Speaker 2: That's who Ming the Merciless is from.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, but there's there's a predecess. Then maybe I'm
Speaker 1: thinking of someone else because I swear there's a predecessor. Maybe,
Speaker 1: so my Encyclopedia of super Villains.
Speaker 2: I'm just talking about the movie and the you know
Speaker 2: with the Queen soundtrack fresh Oh Master of a University.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that's good stuff.
Speaker 1: So in comparison to or in contrast rather uh to
Speaker 1: the Church of say philosophy, there are theistic Satanists. These
Speaker 1: are what we think about, right, if we're the average person,
Speaker 1: we're thinking about what.
Speaker 3: A Satanist is.
Speaker 1: To members of this branch, Satan is not just some symbol,
Speaker 1: nor some clever useful metaphor. Instead, Satan is a genuine,
Speaker 1: actual entity.
Speaker 2: These are the ones that you could refer to as
Speaker 2: devil worshippers.
Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, yeah, they might worship associated demons as well.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Different groups of theistic Satanists may have differing interpretations about
Speaker 1: the nature of this being, but they all agree it's real.
Speaker 1: It's similar in a way to the processed Church of
Speaker 1: the Final Judgment. How they would have some Lucifers and
Speaker 1: then they would have some what are they Sets or Satanists,
Speaker 1: I can't remember, but they some worship this sort of
Speaker 1: light bringer Promethean aspect, and others worship this punishment and
Speaker 1: fascist aspect. So examples of this include things like the
Speaker 1: Temple of Set, the Golden Girls to the mad of
Speaker 1: Church of Satan, and then something called the Order of
Speaker 1: Nine Angles also known as o NA or nine A,
Speaker 1: and a lot of the and a lot of these
Speaker 1: sorts of self styled organizations just like scientology or just
Speaker 1: like federal government agencies. There's a huge emphasis placed on
Speaker 1: the on initialisms and acronyms.
Speaker 3: So let's talk about how they were founded. But let's
Speaker 3: do that after a quick word from our sponsor. All Right,
Speaker 3: we're back. Let's talk about the Order of the Nine Angles.
Speaker 3: So according to you know, one of the I guess
Speaker 3: the common story that you can see people within the
Speaker 3: Order of the Nine Angles, which are we We're gonna
Speaker 3: get into it later. It's a bit hard as an
Speaker 3: outsider to discern what is what, as we'll find later
Speaker 3: in the episode within the Order of the Nine Angles.
Speaker 3: But of the things that are publicly facing in the
Speaker 3: virtual world, the common story is that the organization itself
Speaker 3: was founded sometime in the nineteen sixties, and then as
Speaker 3: it continued along, it started to gain more and more attention,
Speaker 3: especially in the nineteen eighties, and a lot of it
Speaker 3: had to do with activism, specifically neo Nazi activism, which
Speaker 3: tied this group into its self described traditional Satanism.
Speaker 1: Right at times. The Order of the Nine Angles has
Speaker 1: been described as one of the world's most extremist and
Speaker 1: dangerous of Satanic groups, and it's known for its support
Speaker 1: of far right militant movements overwhelmingly racially or religiously motivated.
Speaker 1: Wece called it the most secret of Satanic groups as well,
Speaker 1: claiming that it advocates for animal sacrifice, human sacrifice, and
Speaker 1: reshaping the world entire to one's will. So what is
Speaker 1: the true story? Where does the order of nine angles
Speaker 1: come from? And how do the rumors stack up to
Speaker 1: the facts. Here's where it gets crazy. First version, according
Speaker 1: to their story, it's very much like you said, man.
Speaker 1: First version, it's established in the nineteen sixties by this
Speaker 1: shady lady who's usually called not an intentional rhyme, usually
Speaker 1: called lady Master, and she had previously, according to the
Speaker 1: story the tale they spend, been involved in a quote
Speaker 1: secretive pre Christian tradition that survived in the Welsh marches
Speaker 1: of Western England. So before the time or the rise
Speaker 1: of Christian ideology, there was this secret mystery religion and
Speaker 1: this person inherited the secrets passed down through ritual, through
Speaker 1: oral folklore, through rites and passages, unbeknownst to the greater
Speaker 1: world and the the nine to a or Ona believe
Speaker 1: that Satan is one of two a causual beings. A
Speaker 1: causual being something that is not dependent upon cause for
Speaker 1: it to exist, something that sort of prefigures the if
Speaker 1: then reality of human existence. These eternal beings are there
Speaker 1: are two of them, going back to thinking about duality, right,
Speaker 1: One is Bathomet, was female in their mind, and one
Speaker 1: is Satan, who is male in their mind. And then
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy three, a guy calling himself Anton Long
Speaker 1: was initiated into this group, eventually attaining the title of
Speaker 1: Grand Master, and he really popularized the group with other
Speaker 1: groups because he was quite prolific. He was the Alexander
Speaker 1: Hamilton of his group. He wrote to wrote and wrote
Speaker 1: and wrote Man the Kid is NonStop, et cetera, other
Speaker 1: quotes from the Hamilton Broadway Show. Because of this, you'll
Speaker 1: hear a lot of people say that he was really
Speaker 1: the de facto founder. It suspected that the person was
Speaker 1: the original. They called her the Lady. Master eventually had
Speaker 1: a child with the person calling themselves Anton Long and
Speaker 1: relocated to Australia, at which point Long began running the
Speaker 1: show There you go.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you'll you'll find you'll find different versions of it.
Speaker 3: One in this website called a cult study dot Org
Speaker 3: talks about how it was Anton Long who actually, and
Speaker 3: again this is probably likely from whoever is calling themselves,
Speaker 3: like you said, Ben anton Long, from the own his
Speaker 3: own writings essentially where he brought together three different groups,
Speaker 3: essentially three different secret orders. What is it Nocturllian's the
Speaker 3: Temple of the Sun and the Kamlad tradition, that this
Speaker 3: guy brought them all together and created this thing called
Speaker 3: O nine A. And again you'll find very versions of
Speaker 3: it throughout the internet.
Speaker 1: Right. They expanded on the order's concepts and their ideas
Speaker 1: in all these publications which we'll get into, and they
Speaker 1: tied it into some oh what should we call it,
Speaker 1: some contemporary politics of their time. There in nineteen eighty
Speaker 1: eight they made their journal fin Rear, which was another
Speaker 1: was another sort of rung in the ladder of walking
Speaker 1: up to public prominence, which is what they always wanted.
Speaker 1: With each publication, this group sought to establish links with
Speaker 1: other neo Nazi Satanist groups, which are totally a thing,
Speaker 1: and there are more than you might imagine. And by
Speaker 1: that I mean not just not just people who are
Speaker 1: being profiled because they're fans of metal, but yeah, people
Speaker 1: honestly do consider themselves Satanists.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and this is where we get into the full
Speaker 3: society some of the strange occult beliefs and actions of
Speaker 3: portions of the Nazi Party, or at least some of
Speaker 3: the upper echelon of the Nazi Party.
Speaker 1: I'm really glad that you mentioned that, because the Order
Speaker 1: at times has preferred to describe its ideology as Nazi occult.
Speaker 1: And it's strange the way these things become ephemeral. Right,
Speaker 1: the names can be worn and discarded like old jackets, yeah.
Speaker 3: Or reused and reshaped, and now it means something completely.
Speaker 1: Different, redefined, right, yeah, like you know that. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's also just a human thing, that's just a mundane thing.
Speaker 1: There is some magical power and names for people who
Speaker 1: are adherents of those belief systems. But take the term
Speaker 1: neoliberal versus liberal. Liberal means something very different in an
Speaker 1: international sphere than it does here. And the leading conservative
Speaker 1: party in Australia, for instance, Australia just had an election
Speaker 1: as we're recording this. The leading conservative party is the
Speaker 1: Liberal Party.
Speaker 3: Believe there you go.
Speaker 1: I don't know names, what are they? Maybe they are
Speaker 1: all old jackets.
Speaker 2: So the Order prefers to describe itself it's ideology rather
Speaker 2: as Nazi occult. So that's promoting a supernatural system of
Speaker 2: thought that condemns liberal Judeo Christian society and longs for
Speaker 2: a new imperial age created by a sub Nietzschean superman
Speaker 2: figure called the Index. And that is not Windex pronounced
Speaker 2: with a German accent. It's the Index, the v that's right.
Speaker 1: They that's true.
Speaker 3: Yeah, here it is, and they anton long to do that.
Speaker 1: Right, and ultimately the idea is to expand to the
Speaker 1: stars and to bring this ideology outside of the terrestrial sphere.
Speaker 3: Woo.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's it's an ambitious belief system.
Speaker 3: It sounds like they want to be stormtroopers, you know
Speaker 3: what I mean, like full on the whatever the New
Speaker 3: Order is in the new Star Wars systems. It feels
Speaker 3: like that to me.
Speaker 1: And they also did some really disturbing stuff the way
Speaker 1: it's tied up in this kind of love of fascism
Speaker 1: and this again I don't know how sincere it is,
Speaker 1: this worship of characters like Adolf Hitler. So that's the
Speaker 1: first version. The second version's a little different, and it
Speaker 1: dives into more mundane matters according to observers and commentators,
Speaker 1: and you'll find a surprising amount of literature on this.
Speaker 1: There is no real Anton Long. This is a pseudonym
Speaker 1: used by a British former Neo Nazi named David Mayat.
Speaker 1: I think it's Mayat M. Yatt who either used this
Speaker 1: organization to further his own ends or created an elaborate
Speaker 1: hoax out of whole cloth. Yeah. He's known in Britain
Speaker 1: for being a hardline national socialist or neo Nazi, advocating
Speaker 1: national socialism as well as violence. In the past, he's
Speaker 1: been implicated in physical beatings of people. And usually when
Speaker 1: these sorts of characters are implicated in violence, they attack
Speaker 1: in packs, you know what I mean. So like a
Speaker 1: group of people jumping a single person the nine to
Speaker 1: a grab national attention and the global war on terror
Speaker 1: when the organization was second or even third hand associated
Speaker 1: with series of murders.
Speaker 3: So then this order wanted to you know, move up,
Speaker 3: get some more things like not really infiltrate, just bring
Speaker 3: in other groups to grow their own ranks, right, So
Speaker 3: they attempted to infiltrate some of these non Satanic Nazi
Speaker 3: groups or neo Nazi movements such as there's one specifically
Speaker 3: just mentioned in several publications called the Waffen Division, which
Speaker 3: is often ATAM whatever it is Atom Waffen, and it's
Speaker 3: a US based organization. And this group, at least its
Speaker 3: affiliates killed five people in twenty seventeen and twenty eighteen.
Speaker 3: So this is recent. This is very recent, and it
Speaker 3: is a real group. It's just sounds it sounds odd.
Speaker 2: So from the law enforcement side of things, the all
Speaker 2: this esoterica and a cult ritual doesn't really matter anymore
Speaker 2: than say, like a gang initiation or some kind of
Speaker 2: really heavy hazing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, exactly, because they're not going to It's useful
Speaker 1: in that it can identify members of an organization, but
Speaker 1: to then, you know, imagine, if your job is to
Speaker 1: stop organized crime and gang killings, you want to learn
Speaker 1: about these groups so that you can to some degree
Speaker 1: predict and prevent, predict their behavior and prevent further criminal acts.
Speaker 1: But you're not you know, odds are if you're if
Speaker 1: you're in the FBI or something, You're not going to
Speaker 1: stay up at night worrying that these people may curse you.
Speaker 1: You're more concerned about whether they have access to firearms
Speaker 1: and explosives. It's a you know, it's it's kind of
Speaker 1: a more grounded or mundane look at this. However, do
Speaker 1: you have to stay on a side note. I did
Speaker 1: find two Freedom of Information Act request to the FBI
Speaker 1: about this order of nine angles, and in both cases
Speaker 1: the FBI responded by saying that they searched and they
Speaker 1: didn't have anything there you go, So maybe they're not
Speaker 1: a big deal. I don't know. Mayat, for his own
Speaker 1: his own right, has also, in addition to nine things
Speaker 1: like the Holocaust, denied that he ever went by the
Speaker 1: name Anton Long. He also went through iterations where he
Speaker 1: practiced as a Buddhist monk, and then he embraced radical Islam,
Speaker 1: praising al Kahi and attempting to unite Nazis and Islamic terrorists.
Speaker 3: That's nightmare material.
Speaker 1: That's an odd couple, isn't it. Yeah, it seems strange, right,
Speaker 1: But so so we already see in the origins of
Speaker 1: this thing there is a bit of duplicity. The question
Speaker 1: is whether it's purposeful or whether it's just kind of bungling,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? How much of this is
Speaker 1: meant to be taken seriously? How much of it is
Speaker 1: meant to be believed? I think we mentioned a little
Speaker 1: bit about their process, and you mentioned vendex. What about
Speaker 1: the the rest of their beliefs? What's their plan?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they believe that civilization has to be destroyed
Speaker 2: from within, completely undermined and disassembled, dismantled. So the adherents
Speaker 2: are actually encouraged to be pretty awful people, like, as
Speaker 2: you know, part of their whole prescribed course of making
Speaker 2: this happen. So that includes things like committing crimes, random
Speaker 2: acts of violence, actual assaults, and even this whole like
Speaker 2: genocide kind of idea, calling human victims.
Speaker 1: They also embrace magic. They do share that same commonality
Speaker 1: that we had mentioned at the.
Speaker 3: Top, right.
Speaker 1: But when we talk about their magic, what are we
Speaker 1: talking about? I guess that's part of why they're called
Speaker 1: the Order of the Nine Angles.
Speaker 3: All right, you ready for this? I got this from
Speaker 3: nine a dot org and it's just a post there,
Speaker 3: and it's talking about what the nine angles actually represent.
Speaker 3: So it says, quote, their nine angles refer to the
Speaker 3: nine combinations of the three basic alchemical substances mercury, sulfur, salt.
Speaker 3: And these nine angles slash combinations were first outlined in
Speaker 3: this text. It's from nineteen seventy four. It's called emanations
Speaker 3: of Urania, Urania, Urania who knows, And these nine combinations
Speaker 3: can be used to symbolize how the causal and a
Speaker 3: causal are manifest to us, as for instance, in our
Speaker 3: psyche the nexion of causal, a causal that we are
Speaker 3: via archetypes, personality types. And it just goes on with
Speaker 3: stuff that I honestly am struggling to understand.
Speaker 1: And a lot of this, a lot of writing in
Speaker 1: this sphere, whether it's howking left hand path or right
Speaker 1: hand path, stuff does tend to be a little bit obtuse.
Speaker 1: They also practice something that they call the sevenfold Way.
Speaker 1: So the sevenfold Way is a series of steps meant
Speaker 1: to make someone a practical master of all forms of
Speaker 1: sorcery physically mentally fit in this way is divided into
Speaker 1: these seven stages. The stages are neophyte, initiate, external adept,
Speaker 1: internal adept, master of temple or mistress of earth, a
Speaker 1: grand master or grand mistress, and of course immortal. Sometimes
Speaker 1: initiates are described or called novices, and adepts are called
Speaker 1: priests or priestess. It goes on mais majastrap.
Speaker 3: It's also known as heb hebdomedry Hm. Is that our
Speaker 3: word for today, matt Hebdomedry? Well, the sevenfold way? How
Speaker 3: does it? How's it spelled? H G B d O
Speaker 3: m A d r y all right? Uh?
Speaker 1: Someone used that in a sentence and call us.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: So it's strange when we look at this, because what
Speaker 1: what we're seeing quickly becomes a rabbit hole of accult
Speaker 1: philosophy and working again tied in very much like the
Speaker 1: Thule Society or Tule Society.
Speaker 3: To these.
Speaker 1: To these race based beliefs. Uh. And what what we
Speaker 1: pointed out, however, should already be pretty disturbing. The purpose
Speaker 1: here for the members of this society, by their own statements,
Speaker 1: are to destroy what we know of as civilization and
Speaker 1: up to and including human sacrifice, which they do talk
Speaker 1: about at length, and which differentiates them from a lot
Speaker 1: of other Satanic groups. Let's let's pause for a moment
Speaker 1: for a word from our sponsors, and then, assuming that
Speaker 1: we have not been killed via magical means, let's explore
Speaker 1: a little bit more about their work.
Speaker 3: We made it. We're still here. Yes, no one has
Speaker 3: gotten us by magical, psychic or more traditional means. So
Speaker 3: that's good.
Speaker 1: Let's check on Paul.
Speaker 3: Yep, Oh, he's there. He's intact, all right, good.
Speaker 1: I don't know when his eyes turned all black.
Speaker 2: But you know it's it's it's it's just called the Monday.
Speaker 1: It's a Monday, a cosmetic thing. Yeah, yeah, these kids
Speaker 1: these days, so they're not this group. The Order of
Speaker 1: Nine Angles is not known for subtlety, especially so they
Speaker 1: have a book called The Black Book of Satan, comes
Speaker 1: in three volumes. These are considered so extreme that they're
Speaker 1: kept in a special section of the British Library. They're
Speaker 1: not available to the general public. You have to ask
Speaker 1: for the metacounter research purposes kind of thing. That's because
Speaker 1: these books repeatedly talk about the idea of calling committee
Speaker 1: acts of violence and destabilization up to an including terrorism
Speaker 1: and with active culling. What's fascinating is one of the
Speaker 1: steps that they're told to do is to groom someone
Speaker 1: to voluntarily submit to being sacrificed. That's the ultimate, the
Speaker 1: ultimate coup there. And they also have an interesting work
Speaker 1: study program for lack of a better term, that they
Speaker 1: send their members on Would.
Speaker 2: You believe I had looked up The Black Book of
Speaker 2: Satan on Amazon and there is one paperback available used
Speaker 2: for eight hundred and sixty four dollars.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would believe that. I guess they're hard to
Speaker 3: get a hold of.
Speaker 1: That happens with a lot of occult books. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean it maybe's too that someone has someone is either
Speaker 1: like bilking someone or they have multiple copies and they're
Speaker 1: just putting them out one at a time. I saw
Speaker 1: that before, you know, I wonder if anybody does have
Speaker 1: a copy of the Black Book of Satan.
Speaker 2: I found a free download pdf on a cultboards dot com.
Speaker 3: I'm sure it's the real deal.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: Hah, yeah, right, getting a PDF of the Black Book
Speaker 3: of Satan. I laugh at the that's fair. So let's
Speaker 3: get into what is required of ONA members who were
Speaker 3: going along that sevenfold path trying to get into one
Speaker 3: of the noxioms or whatever they're called.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that work study, I was mentioning.
Speaker 3: Exactly one of these, one of these cells essentially, so
Speaker 3: they they want people to spend six months either just
Speaker 3: traveling like hitchhiking the way you would a traditional traveler
Speaker 3: along that path, working as either a burglar, maybe working
Speaker 3: even as a police officer, or infiltrating some version of
Speaker 3: an extremist political group where you're just kind of roaming
Speaker 3: and in working inside one of these other organizations.
Speaker 1: Two things that connect with this. This is very inspiring
Speaker 1: for any of us horror writers in the audience. There
Speaker 1: used to be a television show maybe in the nineties
Speaker 1: early two thousands that was sort of this scary anthology
Speaker 1: show called The Hitchhiker. Yeah, remember that and the Hitchhiker.
Speaker 1: The frame was that someone picks up the hitch hiker
Speaker 1: and terrible stuff happens, which was gold. But it makes me,
Speaker 1: it makes me see how appealing this could be to
Speaker 1: people who are fearmongers in the nineteen eighties nineteen nineties
Speaker 1: satanic panic scare here in the United States. Could say
Speaker 1: Satanists are all around you. They're low level criminals, they're hitchhikers,
Speaker 1: they're living off the grid. You know, they're going to
Speaker 1: rainbow gatherings or you know, they're hopping trains. They're avoiding
Speaker 1: the spotlight of mainstream America. And with the fact that
Speaker 1: you know that seems like that seems like just some
Speaker 1: something people would say to us sell headlines right or
Speaker 1: get people to tune into sixty minutes or something. But
Speaker 1: here we have a real group saying yes, go do
Speaker 1: this for six months.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Especially what baffles me is thinking that, at least
Speaker 3: on this list where it was mentioned saying a police
Speaker 3: officer would be a good route for this. And I
Speaker 3: guess it's because you're you're essentially practicing power over others.
Speaker 3: I guess there are reasons that a police officer would
Speaker 3: be I think on that list.
Speaker 1: Yeah, in in one passage they said, do something that
Speaker 1: is far outside your previous life experience, but working and
Speaker 1: law enforcement will give you Liam Neeson esque certain set
Speaker 1: of skills. There you go, you know, for physical altercation,
Speaker 1: tactical thinking.
Speaker 3: Well that yeah, and that's something we kind of talked
Speaker 3: about before in this when we're mentioning that sevenfold path
Speaker 3: that you go down to join this group. It is
Speaker 3: about the psychological, it's about the empowering that, it's about
Speaker 3: empowering you psychically, it's about empowering you physically and all
Speaker 3: these things. So I guess a police officer would be
Speaker 3: a really good way to get there.
Speaker 1: And from their literature, this has a this is weird.
Speaker 1: I want to say, you guys think of this. So
Speaker 1: from their literature they attempt to quote, undertake the role
Speaker 1: of extreme political activists and so champion heretical views by
Speaker 1: e g. Becoming involved in extreme right wing activism. They
Speaker 1: demand this. In one of their introductory books, they say,
Speaker 1: quote the aim is to express fanaticism and act x
Speaker 1: and be seen by all right thinking people as extremists
Speaker 1: and dangerous. So they want to be the people who
Speaker 1: are I don't know, it feels to me like they're
Speaker 1: talking about edginess for the sake of edginess. You know,
Speaker 1: like they're gonna bust into an alt right meeting and
Speaker 1: someone's gonna say, well, you know, I just I just
Speaker 1: don't think we should. They're gonna bust into a tea
Speaker 1: party meeting. Maybe let's make it even more innocuous, and
Speaker 1: then they'll say I don't think we should pay taxes
Speaker 1: and they're like, yeah, additionally we should burn all the money.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and everybody's like, oh, those guys are dangerous.
Speaker 1: So so they've they've kind of got this idea of
Speaker 1: again very very motivated by racism. They've kind of got
Speaker 1: this idea similar to Joker in the Dark Night, where
Speaker 1: they the heath Ledger Joker the good One, where they
Speaker 1: want to just so chaos indiscriminately. But unlike the Joker,
Speaker 1: who it was a fictional character and exists only to
Speaker 1: spread chaos for the sake of chaos itself, this group
Speaker 1: seeks to spread chaos to make it easier to propagate
Speaker 1: their twisted world and cosmic view. So we see that's strange,
Speaker 1: tragically not necessarily alien marriage of ideology. Here, the Nazis
Speaker 1: and the so called Satanists uniteen to pursue goals that
Speaker 1: are at least non mutually exclusive.
Speaker 2: So for the nine to a fascism is actually seen
Speaker 2: as a means to an end rather than an end
Speaker 2: in and of itself, particularly this idea of a sinister
Speaker 2: dialect that's the key to the aonic evolution of human
Speaker 2: civilization into a higher form. But the Meijian Nazarene distortion,
Speaker 2: also known as the Christians and the Jews, is holding
Speaker 2: back Western civilization, according to this doctrine, from reaching its
Speaker 2: final all step, some sort of evolutionary step, and must
Speaker 2: be overthrown if humanity is to advance.
Speaker 5: So holy war or unholy war, absolutely, yeah, And the
Speaker 5: vision here goes to that thing that you mentioned earlier,
Speaker 5: been that y index, yes.
Speaker 1: Right, being led by index deep into the cosmos where
Speaker 1: where we mentioned though, establish a galactic reich to champion
Speaker 1: and make known our unique human destiny of galactic exploration
Speaker 1: and the colonization of outer space. This is from the
Speaker 1: Drekkian Way d R E C C I A. And
Speaker 1: we're not recommending that you check out these books. We're
Speaker 1: just letting you know that these are These are the
Speaker 1: the tenets, the goals, and the aims as self described
Speaker 1: by this by this uh organization.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and they really do want to you know,
Speaker 3: it's this concept at least of creating a sinister world.
Speaker 3: But here's the thing. In order to have the world
Speaker 3: be sinister, you got to make the people that are
Speaker 3: living in that world or controlling and running that world sinister.
Speaker 3: So they think this can happen through what they call
Speaker 3: the practice of genuine modern heresies. I like that. I
Speaker 3: don't mean to poke fun at it, but genuine modern heresies.
Speaker 3: And this is you know, again taking yourself, the individual
Speaker 3: person through all of these mental and physical trials that
Speaker 3: you know, well, you're going through mental and physical trials
Speaker 3: and at the same time you're also practicing magic with
Speaker 3: a k so ritualizations things you're you're basically, I don't know,
Speaker 3: you're you're honing yourself on all possible fronts to become evil.
Speaker 3: I guess in a way, or maybe not, the word
Speaker 3: evil is correct here, but to do the things that
Speaker 3: the group wants to do. Well, here's a question.
Speaker 2: Do you think people that are adherent to this kind
Speaker 2: of belief system do they see themselves as evil?
Speaker 1: That's interesting in some In some cases there would be
Speaker 1: people associating with this because they want to they want
Speaker 1: to be seen as evil.
Speaker 2: But don't they just think that the path of satan
Speaker 2: is the better path?
Speaker 1: Many probably do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I'm just wondering if if good and evil
Speaker 2: even enters into it at this point when when it
Speaker 2: comes to your thinking behind getting behind something like this.
Speaker 3: I guess that's why I was hesitant to use the term.
Speaker 3: I guess I'm what I mean is adversarial to the
Speaker 3: status quo and or the the ways in which society
Speaker 3: are set up, in the institutions that hold that society up.
Speaker 2: I'm just getting all big picture about it in my head,
Speaker 2: and it's just interesting to think about the nature of
Speaker 2: good and evil and this. Does true evil really see
Speaker 2: itself that way? Or do they just believe that they're
Speaker 2: actually doing what's best.
Speaker 1: It's an interesting question because in many cases, yeah, in
Speaker 1: many cases, all great villains are the heroes of their
Speaker 1: own stories. Right, then say I'm doing terrible things, but
Speaker 1: I'm doing it for a greater reason, right and there
Speaker 1: you know, people have to die, but the world will
Speaker 1: be better, et cetera, et cetera. The thing that's interesting
Speaker 1: about some theistic satanism and why it can be so
Speaker 1: attractive to people who are already involved in something that
Speaker 1: puts the bulk of its emphasis on violence in the
Speaker 1: short term is that there's not too much of a
Speaker 1: leap to go to something else like this. And one
Speaker 1: thing that's interesting about the question about regarding seeing oneself
Speaker 1: as good or evil is that you can get a
Speaker 1: little bit of a sense, not a reliable, not a
Speaker 1: one hundred percent reliable sense. You can get a little
Speaker 1: bit of a sense of how someone sees themselves by
Speaker 1: what emphasis they place on things. Do they place the
Speaker 1: emphasis on their ultimate end goal? Vision? Is that like
Speaker 1: seventy percent of this, you know, like most many religions
Speaker 1: spend seventy percent or so of their time talking about
Speaker 1: how to be a decent person now, right, or do
Speaker 1: they spend the majority of their time talking about the
Speaker 1: violet things they will do to get a vaguely explained
Speaker 1: thing in the past, right or sorry, in the future. Yes, yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean that's to me. It's tough because it probably
Speaker 1: varies case by case. But I'm sure in Satanism there
Speaker 1: are a few people who think I am evil, I
Speaker 1: embrace it, I'm the son of the beasts or whatever,
Speaker 1: and they probably really believe it. Maybe they're misled.
Speaker 2: You know, whatever does it for you is what I say.
Speaker 2: Like we're talking about the beginning of the show. If
Speaker 2: you can use religion and maybe not ritualistically murder people,
Speaker 2: but if this does it for you, you know, being
Speaker 2: evil or the idea of being evil, and you're not gonna,
Speaker 2: you know, call an entire population, then I say, more
Speaker 2: power to you. But unfortunately, this particular idea involved a
Speaker 2: lot of these random acts of murder and rape and violence,
Speaker 2: stuff doing unto the innocent. So can't get behind the
Speaker 2: can't get behind the O nine A here, guys, I'm sorry,
Speaker 2: I cannot throw my endorsement at this order.
Speaker 1: Which is weird because it was your pitch, I know, sure,
Speaker 1: and I think it was interesting because I had never
Speaker 1: heard of this, and this leads us to maybe one
Speaker 1: of our bigger questions which we always have to ask
Speaker 1: with these sorts of groups. Is it a case of
Speaker 1: Satan's military, a Satanic army, or is it a case
Speaker 1: more of internet bravery? You know? Like the Order has
Speaker 1: been referred to as Satan's military, but it seems more
Speaker 1: accurate to say that the Order or the people who
Speaker 1: claim to be involved with it, because we can't verify
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of people, seems accurate to say that
Speaker 1: they are maybe militant in attitude more than organized and
Speaker 1: violent in person, because the crimes that can be reasonably
Speaker 1: traced to nine A affiliates and partner organizations seem to
Speaker 1: be crimes that were sort of egged on by the group,
Speaker 1: but not enacted by the group directly. And the nine
Speaker 1: A was also once dismissed by other occultists as the
Speaker 1: Order of no members because this one guy, David Mayat
Speaker 1: and I think another guy named Malt appeared to be
Speaker 1: the only visible figures within the organization. So how much
Speaker 1: of it is just them writing prolifically under different names,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean?
Speaker 3: The pseudonym aspect I can see at work here. But again,
Speaker 3: we did point this out already a little bit. But
Speaker 3: we have noticed, and it's been documented that their growth,
Speaker 3: this nine A growth, has been right alongside other like
Speaker 3: I guess what we would call right wing extremist.
Speaker 1: Groups, sure, yeah, yeah, supremacist organizations would be a big one.
Speaker 1: Neo Nazi organizations. And this has led to a couple
Speaker 1: of really strange conspiratorial thoughts, one being there was actually
Speaker 1: some infighting between members of white supreme see groups and
Speaker 1: members of this nine A thing, because there were people saying, look, guys,
Speaker 1: I'm just here because I'm a white supremacist. I don't
Speaker 1: like all this weird hocus pocus stuff. I'm we've lost,
Speaker 1: We've lost our way out of the game. And everyone's like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: that guy doesn't get it. And then someone else said,
Speaker 1: you know, I feel like I also fought more on
Speaker 1: the supremacy now side, and like the magic stuff's cool. Like,
Speaker 1: don't get me wrong, dude, I love metal or whatever.
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not knocking metal. I am knocking racist,
Speaker 1: but I'm not knocking metal.
Speaker 3: It does make me feel a little bit sad for
Speaker 3: the people who joined up because they were all about
Speaker 3: that magic and all about the that stuff, and they realized, oh,
Speaker 3: this is a separatist group.
Speaker 1: Yeah right. There are other people who said, I thought
Speaker 1: we were just doing rituals.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm down for our infernal Lord and Master,
Speaker 1: but I feel like our Infernal Lord and Master should
Speaker 1: be an equal opportunity employer.
Speaker 3: There you go.
Speaker 1: So, I mean, we're making a little bit of light
Speaker 1: of this, but it's a dangerous thing when we see
Speaker 1: this connection of ideologies and these people are conspiring in secret.
Speaker 1: We don't know. We don't know how much of it
Speaker 1: is just bluff and bluster on the nine A part.
Speaker 1: We don't know how much of it, even to some degree,
Speaker 1: is taken seriously by all the people. Is it an
Speaker 1: elaborate hoax. There's a lot of writing out there, but
Speaker 1: again it's not as if there is a center that
Speaker 1: you can visit. You know, there's not a power structure
Speaker 1: that is readily apparent to a lot of people, and
Speaker 1: perhaps that's they've just kept it internal. We do know
Speaker 1: that at this point the organization is still considered to
Speaker 1: be out there, but the views it espouses have have
Speaker 1: mainly caught the attention of law enforcement and governments because
Speaker 1: of the actions of its affiliates white supremacist hard right
Speaker 1: wing terror groups terrorist groups. At a two thousand and
Speaker 1: three UNESCO conference in Paris concerning the growth of anti
Speaker 1: Semitism in Europe and abroad, they stated, David Mayat, the
Speaker 1: leading hardline Nazi intellectual in Britain since the sixties, who
Speaker 1: maybe what is it Anton Long has converted to Islam.
Speaker 1: This was true at the time. He praised Bin Laden
Speaker 1: and al Qaeda. He called the nine to eleven tax
Speaker 1: and active heroism. He urged for the killing of all
Speaker 1: like all Jewish people, and he also he used another name,
Speaker 1: Abdullah ziz Ibin Mayat, he supported suicide missions. He has
Speaker 1: one of the most thorough English language defenses of that.
Speaker 1: He urged young Muslims to take up violent jihad, which
Speaker 1: is not Any actual Muslim will tell you that the
Speaker 1: kind of thing he's calling jihad is not jihad. Observers
Speaker 1: warned that he's a dangerous man. But since two thousen
Speaker 1: he claims to have changed. He says, I've rejected Islam.
Speaker 1: My extremists passed, and guys, it's all about loving each other. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what he says now, but the extremism seems to
Speaker 1: carry on. The question now is whether it's legitimate, whether
Speaker 1: the people who claim to believe it online actually practice
Speaker 1: it in person or some have proposed is the entire
Speaker 1: thing a hoax? Is it a government front to monitor
Speaker 1: right wing groups? Let us know what you think.
Speaker 3: That's the most promising for me, or the most silver
Speaker 3: lining answer for me. It's a front group of some
Speaker 3: sort that's trying to stop some of these other organizations.
Speaker 1: But people still got killed, so they must not be
Speaker 1: doing that great of a job.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, you're probably right.
Speaker 1: And that's our classic episode for this evening. We can't
Speaker 1: wait to hear your thoughts.
Speaker 3: It's right.
Speaker 2: Let us know what you think. You can reach to
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