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Speaker 1: I'm George Severis and I'm Julia Clair, and this is

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Speaker 1: United States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination

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Speaker 1: with the Kennedy Dynasty. Every week we go into one

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Speaker 1: aspect of the Kennedy story, and today, inspired by our

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Speaker 1: recent episode on Marilyn Monroe and her intersection with the

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Speaker 1: Kennedy family, we are talking about the some would say infamous,

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty two Netflix film Blonde, directed by Andrew Dominic

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Speaker 1: and starring Academy Award nominee for this film on a d.

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Speaker 2: Harmiso and it's a doozy.

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Speaker 1: Let's get the facts out of the way. It is

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Speaker 1: based on the Joyce Carol Oates giant novel It's over

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Speaker 1: seven hundred pages long called Blonde, which is a fictionalized

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Speaker 1: account of Marilyn Monroe's life. So one of the things

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Speaker 1: that is kind of disorienting about the movie is that

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Speaker 1: actual facts from Marylyn's life are mixed with complete fabrications.

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Speaker 1: One that I just wanted to quickly shout out is

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Speaker 1: she is portrayed as having a throuble relationship with Edward G.

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Speaker 1: Robinson Junior and Charlie Chaplin Junior.

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Speaker 2: I thought that was the best part of the movie.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a close second to the CGI baby having

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Speaker 1: a conversation with her, which we will also get into.

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Speaker 3: JFK or a fictionalized JFK is only featured in a

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Speaker 3: very small portion of the film, but boy does he

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Speaker 3: make an impact.

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Speaker 1: That's true. He doesn't make an impact. And as much

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Speaker 1: as it is not only a single scene of the

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Speaker 1: film that also comes in two and a half hours

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Speaker 1: into the two hour and forty five minute film, but

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Speaker 1: it is sort of an important part of the movie

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Speaker 1: because no pun intended, there's a climactic element. It's very

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Speaker 1: much the climax of all the gratuitous violence and expectations

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Speaker 1: she has to deal with throughout the film. But then

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Speaker 1: another reason that scene is important is because it is

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Speaker 1: I would imagine, the sole reason why this movie maintained

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Speaker 1: an NCC seventeen rating, despite the fact that it was

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Speaker 1: you know, on Netflix and a one time big oscar contender.

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Speaker 3: Just to set the scene for our discussion with film

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Speaker 3: critic and writer Esther Zuckerman, we wanted to read some

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Speaker 3: excerpts from some of the reviews of this film, which

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Speaker 3: George and I had a lot of fun reading.

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Speaker 1: Some heavy hitters too. Richard Brody reviewed it for The

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Speaker 1: New Yorker and Manola Dargas for The Times, arguably the

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Speaker 1: two most respected currently working film critics in kind of

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Speaker 1: mainstream non niche media. Richard Brody called it, I think

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Speaker 1: very perceptibly the passion of the Christ for Marilyn Monroe,

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Speaker 1: and I just want to read the final line of

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Speaker 1: the review. You've got to hand it to Dominic. He

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Speaker 1: doesn't only outdo the ostensibly crass showmen of classic Hollywood

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Speaker 1: and overt artistic ambition, but also in cheap sentiment, brazen tastelessness,

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Speaker 1: and sexual exploitation.

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Speaker 3: Geworth knowing that both Brody and Manola Dargas do praise

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Speaker 3: Anadarmus and her performance, but Manola Dargas has maybe one

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Speaker 3: of my favorite little paragraphs in all of film criticism.

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Speaker 3: She said, given all of the indignities and horrors that

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Speaker 3: Marilyn Monroe endured during her thirty six years, her family tragedies,

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Speaker 3: paternal absence, maternal abuse, time and and orphanage, time in

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Speaker 3: foster homes, spells of poverty, unworthy film roles, insults about

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Speaker 3: her intelligence, struggles with mental illness, problems with substance abuse,

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Speaker 3: sexual assault, the slavering attention of insatiable fans. It is

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Speaker 3: a relief that she did not have to suffer through

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Speaker 3: the vulgarities of Blonde, the latest necrophiliac entertainment to exploit her.

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Speaker 1: The latest necrophiliac entertainment to exploit her. And with that

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Speaker 1: we want to welcome entertainment reporter and film and TV

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Speaker 1: writer Esther Zuckerman. She wrote about the film Blonde when

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Speaker 1: it came out here at this piece for Vulture about

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Speaker 1: what's fact and what's fiction in it, and she also

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Speaker 1: is the author of the book falling in Love at

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Speaker 1: the Movies rom Coms I'm the Screwball Era to Today,

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Speaker 1: which is obviously very relevant to Marilyn Monroe's career, and

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Speaker 1: we are excited to discuss this crazy movie with her.

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Speaker 1: So Esther, welcome to the United States of Kennedy. How

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Speaker 1: are you.

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Speaker 2: I'm good, Thank you for having me, And.

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Speaker 1: I just want to say you're welcome for the privilege

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Speaker 1: of watching this film a second time. We know it's

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Speaker 1: one of your favorite movies of all time and that

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Speaker 1: you take any opportunity to chat about it on a

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Speaker 1: sort of pop culture history podcast.

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Speaker 4: I will fully confessed I didn't fully rewatch it. I

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Speaker 4: rewatch scenes and I rewatched moments, but I hate this

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Speaker 4: film so much that I didn't do it the honor

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Speaker 4: of like sure free watching it, And.

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Speaker 3: Which is it's so crazy because you actually emailed us

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Speaker 3: being like, I really want to come on and talk

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Speaker 3: about it.

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Speaker 1: Always said, who is this est woman? I guess you

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Speaker 1: can have she's such a big friend.

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Speaker 2: I guess obsess, Yeah, and we should say.

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Speaker 1: You know. One of the reasons we wanted to have

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Speaker 1: you on is because many people wrote about the film critically,

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Speaker 1: but you, specifically in Vulture wrote like what's fact and

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Speaker 1: what's FI about the movie, which felt more pertinent to

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Speaker 1: our interests because at the end of the day, even

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Speaker 1: though we talk a lot about conspiracy theories and we

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Speaker 1: talk a lot about, you know, things that are potentially

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Speaker 1: not able to be fact checked, because the Kennedy universe

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Speaker 1: is just full of rumors and lies and conspiracies, we

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Speaker 1: do care a little bit about the historical record, and

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Speaker 1: obviously this movie is a fictionalized account, but we wanted

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Speaker 1: to talk to someone that at least knows a little

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Speaker 1: bit about the real Marylyn and has done a little

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Speaker 1: bit of work in terms of just separating fact from

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Speaker 1: fiction from the film. Yeah, before we get into it,

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Speaker 1: I do want to just ask, what is your relationship

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Speaker 1: with this movie.

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Speaker 4: I saw it right after its Film Festival premiere, if

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Speaker 4: for review and editorial consideration, at the Paris Theater in

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Speaker 4: New York, which Netflix owns. So by the time I

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Speaker 4: came into it, there was so much press around this

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Speaker 4: movie before it even premiered. It was in production for ages.

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Speaker 4: Know Andrew Dominic the directors people love him, but he

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Speaker 4: made very few films. He hadn't made a movie since

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Speaker 4: twenty twelve, and there was a lot of talk. You know,

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Speaker 4: immediately people started sort of in the film community like

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Speaker 4: this is crazy.

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Speaker 2: So I knew going into.

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Speaker 4: It that it was wild, it was long, it was intense.

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Speaker 4: I knew it was divisive, and so then I went

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Speaker 4: and saw it, and you know, I.

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Speaker 2: Am a critic.

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Speaker 4: I go in with an open mind, and I really

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Speaker 4: did not like it. I find it very punishing, and

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Speaker 4: I find it very cool. It's very beautiful to look at,

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Speaker 4: but I find it a very cruel form of beauty

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Speaker 4: and very cruel to its subject matter. Now, I haven't

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Speaker 4: read the Joyce Carolos book that it is based on

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Speaker 4: shout out to Joyce are one of our greatest posters.

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Speaker 2: You know, absolutely this is just a total nonsequitor.

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Speaker 4: But a friend was talking to me about Joyce's Twitter

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Speaker 4: and there was an exact eight hour difference from her

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Speaker 4: post one night and her post in the morning.

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Speaker 2: That like, girl cannot log off.

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Speaker 1: She is well, I was saying to Julia before we

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Speaker 1: started recording. She's a frustrating figure because she proves that

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Speaker 1: you can be both a prolific and incredibly talented real

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Speaker 1: writer and also never stop posting. You know, sometimes I'm like, God,

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Speaker 1: I gotta get off my phone because I have a deadline.

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Speaker 1: It's somehow she does meet all her deadlines and never

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Speaker 1: stops posting.

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Speaker 3: I love her so much. And George said, the book

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Speaker 3: is seven hundred pages. Yes, has anybody read this book?

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I love Joyce Carol Oates's writing.

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Speaker 3: I have not read this novel, but yeah, I think

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Speaker 3: Punishing is an excellent descriptor for this film. I felt

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Speaker 3: the way that I have felt a few times in

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Speaker 3: my life. When after I finished this movie, I was like, well,

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Speaker 3: I never want to see that again and it should

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Speaker 3: be banned maybe, And no one should ever.

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Speaker 2: Have to see it ever again.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we should also say that this movie actually was

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Speaker 1: adapted once before by Joyce Chopra.

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Speaker 2: I believe. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And Joyce Chopra is a very respected filmmaker. She made

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Speaker 1: that Laura Derm movie that I love, Smooth Talk.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Oh, in two thousand and one she adapted it. It

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Speaker 1: was like a made for TV movie, which I mean,

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Speaker 1: it makes sense that Hollywood people would want to make

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Speaker 1: a movie based on a book that's like a fictionalized

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Speaker 1: account of Marilyn Monroe. Do you have any idea what

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Speaker 1: Joyce Caro Loates's response was to the film.

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Speaker 2: I don't remember. Honestly.

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Speaker 4: It's funny because she just see a lot of movies

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Speaker 4: and she comments again, she posts.

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Speaker 2: About them, but I think she was supportive.

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Speaker 4: She did an interview for like Netflix's todom website about it.

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Speaker 1: You know what I found the tweet Someone asked her

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Speaker 1: time for your film review please on Twitter and she goes,

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Speaker 1: I think it was. Slash is a brilliant work of

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Speaker 1: cinematic art, obviously not for everyone. Surprising that in a

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Speaker 1: post me To era, the stark exposure of sexual predation

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Speaker 1: on Hollywood has been interpreted as exploitation. Surely Andrew Dominic

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Speaker 1: meant to tell Norma Jean's story. Sincerely, I must agree

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Speaker 1: with her that I think he did mean to like, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's what's sort of so shocking about it is I think,

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Speaker 1: as much as I can say this with a straight face,

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Speaker 1: his heart was in the right place.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, I actually think that is one hundred percent true.

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Speaker 4: And I think that comes through and like not to

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Speaker 4: keep using this word the punishing nature of the movie,

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Speaker 4: that it shows her being exploited at every turn, I

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Speaker 4: think the problem is and the way in which it

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Speaker 4: doesn't succeed is it revels in that punishment, and it

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Speaker 4: feels invasive in that punishment from literally going into her guterus,

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Speaker 4: which is the thing that the.

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Speaker 3: Movie does multiple movies, multiple times, full times, multiple times.

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Speaker 4: To even like, you know, I'm sure we'll talk about

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Speaker 4: like the Kennedy blowjob scene, which like focuses on her

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Speaker 4: face giving that blowjob so much longer than it needs.

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Speaker 2: To in a way that obviously.

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Speaker 4: Is trying to convey the horror in her eyes, but

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Speaker 4: it's still a shot of a woman giving a really

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Speaker 4: really long bloat job without being so explicit, but just

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Speaker 4: graphic enough.

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Speaker 2: That you know what's happening.

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Speaker 4: And I think that is the line that it doesn't

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Speaker 4: really succeed in walking is it feels sort of like

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Speaker 4: if it loves her, it's a really mean way of

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Speaker 4: showing that it loves her.

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Speaker 3: I completely agree, And I think that there's a point

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Speaker 3: at which, like, obviously Marilyn was a woman who was

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Speaker 3: exploited for her whole life, and there's a way in

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Speaker 3: which the depiction of the exploitation ends up joining in

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Speaker 3: on the exploitation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no.

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Speaker 3: Delineation between the exploitation that Marilyn the character is experiencing,

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Speaker 3: and that what the film is doing to her. It's just, Oh,

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Speaker 3: this movie makes my skin crawl. It's funny because when

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Speaker 3: I knew we had to watch this movie, I watched

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Speaker 3: the trailer again, which I hadn't since it came out

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Speaker 3: in twenty twenty two, because I remember, as you were

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Speaker 3: talking about the production of this film was much written about.

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Speaker 3: I remember the stills coming out from this film of

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Speaker 3: Anna Darmis as Marilyn and Adrian Brody as Arthur Miller

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Speaker 3: and being like, wow, they look great.

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Speaker 2: I mean, they're obviously two extremely hot people. They look great.

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Speaker 3: But when I watched the trailer, I was like, oh yeah,

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Speaker 3: I forgot that. Like, you know, Ana Darmis is a

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Speaker 3: Cuban actress who got her start in Spain. She like

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Speaker 3: became a star in Spain, and she really didn't lose

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Speaker 3: her Cuban Spanish accent to the degree.

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Speaker 2: That she needed to.

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Speaker 3: But the weird thing about watching this movie is that

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Speaker 3: that is at the absolute bottom of the list of

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Speaker 3: things that are wrong with this movie. Yeah, yeah, it

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Speaker 3: almost doesn't matter.

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Speaker 1: It does not matter at all.

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Speaker 2: We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after.

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Speaker 5: This break, and we're back with more United States of Kennedy.

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Speaker 1: There's this meta thing that happens where the movie both

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Speaker 1: recreates and aestheticizes the exploitation that it's attempting to critique allegedly.

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Speaker 1: But what happens on a meta level is that Annada

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Speaker 1: Armis at times has such moments of transcendence and grace

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Speaker 1: despite that that you're almost like, wow, you're unintentionally actually

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Speaker 1: telling the story of Marilyn Monroe in like a different

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Speaker 1: way than you think you are. Like, this actress is

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Speaker 1: being completely like humiliated and it's actually kind of I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I guess cool that she was rewarded for it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, who knows. I don't know how much I

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Speaker 1: earnestly care about oscar recognition, but it is interesting that

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Speaker 1: the critical consensus, which did seem to be that the

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Speaker 1: movie was you know, wrongheaded, didn't throw the baby out

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Speaker 1: with the bathwater, and actually allowed that. Despite it all,

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Speaker 1: Anna to armis is giving kind of a crazy good

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Speaker 1: performances the things that she is forced to do and say,

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Speaker 1: not in every scene I should, but when she's good,

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Speaker 1: she's amazing.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I do think she is really good, and she does

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Speaker 4: so much with her eyes in the film, which I

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Speaker 4: think is one of the things that overcomes the accent

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Speaker 4: and the dialogue thing, because that is also one of

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Speaker 4: the weird things about anyone playing Marilyn in any respect,

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Speaker 4: is like they all have to do this sort of

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Speaker 4: bassy Marilyn voice that obviously with some of a put

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Speaker 4: on in real life, but also is so defining and

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Speaker 4: it can become such a hang up that it can

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Speaker 4: become such a parody. And the fact that English is

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Speaker 4: not her first language, that she's never totally lost her accent,

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Speaker 4: I feel like lends something to the dialogue that helps

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Speaker 4: then the rest of her face is allowed to do

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Speaker 4: the work in a way that's really interesting, I mean,

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Speaker 4: and that's the thing about the movie. Like I do

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Speaker 4: think the movie has moments of like extraordinary beauty that

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Speaker 4: sometimes calm you into thinking it is more profound or

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Speaker 4: it is more eloquent than it actually is, and then

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Speaker 4: it goes back to the shock value, and I think

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Speaker 4: it just relies far too much on the shock value

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Speaker 4: of it totally.

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Speaker 3: And I think one of my big problems with the

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Speaker 3: whole thing, and this might be my problem with the

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Speaker 3: novel as well, if I had read it, is that

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Speaker 3: it kind of lets itself off the hook by being like,

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Speaker 3: this is a fictionalized version of Marilyn, but so much

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Speaker 3: of this is based on her actual life obviously, so

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Speaker 3: the line there is so blurry that the whole thing

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Speaker 3: just feels so exploitative and terrible.

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Speaker 2: And also the thing that I was frustrated about as.

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Speaker 3: Someone who you know, we all know a lot about

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Speaker 3: the real Marilyn, but it marinates in her suffering so much,

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Speaker 3: and all Ana j Armis is doing in this whole

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Speaker 3: movie is that wounded bird kind of crying and just

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Speaker 3: being absolutely like bereft and a lost little girl, and

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Speaker 3: there's not even glimmers of like the ambitious Marilyn, which

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Speaker 3: is something that was talked about over and over again

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Speaker 3: from people who knew her, that she wanted to be

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Speaker 3: a star and had a really you know, for all

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Speaker 3: her troubled upbringing, had a real determination and a head

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Speaker 3: on her shoulders that was going to point her in

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Speaker 3: the right direction. And we don't see any of that.

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Speaker 3: We just see the pleading, like she says Daddy so

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Speaker 3: much and I'm like, that can't be accurate. But again,

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Speaker 3: anytime you ask that question, you're like, oh, yeah, well

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Speaker 3: it's a fictionalization.

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Speaker 1: Julian and I were talking about this off Mike earlier,

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Speaker 1: but this movie sets you up to seem like a

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Speaker 1: woke scold, because anytime you have a critique like that,

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Speaker 1: then of course the answer becomes like, well, obviously you

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Speaker 1: don't get it. It's performance and theatricality and camp is

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Speaker 1: in the DNA of the movie, and it's obviously using

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Speaker 1: Marylyn as a metaphor, and even at some point, I

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Speaker 1: think in one of the reviews of the original book

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Speaker 1: it said that Marilyn is like a metaphor for America,

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Speaker 1: Like you know, it's all these high minded content. It's like, no,

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Speaker 1: I get all that, and I still believe that the

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Speaker 1: entire pride misguide it.

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Speaker 4: Well, I that's I mean, it's such a complicated thing

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Speaker 4: that it's doing, which is the real life person as

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Speaker 4: metaphor for work.

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Speaker 2: But it's like it's.

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Speaker 4: Still a real life person, like not to be like

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Speaker 4: a Wokeschold or like an arts gold too. It's like, yes,

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Speaker 4: I understand that artists can do this, but I also

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Speaker 4: think that if you're using the name of a real

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Speaker 4: person to reduce them fully into metaphor almost also feels

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Speaker 4: anti like I thought about in the context of like

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Speaker 4: one of the things that this movie doesn't show at all.

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Speaker 4: In addition to like what you said Julia about like

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Speaker 4: her ambition thing is like what a joyous performer she was,

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Speaker 4: Like it doesn't give her any trelet for like how

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Speaker 4: good she was on screen. And you know, yes, the

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Speaker 4: production of some like It Hot was very troubled, but

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Speaker 4: she's so good in that movie, and she gives such a.

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Speaker 2: Warm and yeah, she's incredible.

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Speaker 4: And intentionally funny performance where she knows like that's the thing,

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Speaker 4: Like all of her comedies you know, she knew where

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Speaker 4: laughlines were, she knew how to make it's funny, and

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Speaker 4: it doesn't give her any of that.

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Speaker 2: Agent's incredible comedic performer.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it basically makes you think that she wasn't in

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Speaker 3: on the joke, which is the opposite of how she was.

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Speaker 3: She was extremely calculated about how she appeared to the world,

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Speaker 3: and she was a really gifted comedic performer. So the

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Speaker 3: idea that like the Last were happening in spite of

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Speaker 3: her is crazy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's a historical.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And speaking of a historical I think this is

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Speaker 1: a good point to ask you esther. You wrote a

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Speaker 1: book about the history of the rom com Falling in

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Speaker 1: Love at the movie is rom coms from the Screwball

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Speaker 1: era to today. So if we could sort of take

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Speaker 1: a step back from the fictionalized account of this movie

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Speaker 1: and maybe do our own little reclaiming of Marilyn. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what was your experience doing research into Marilyn for the book?

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Speaker 1: Where does she fit into film history? What was other

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Speaker 1: than you know, the Warhol celeb that we all know,

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Speaker 1: even if we know nothing about film. What was the

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Speaker 1: equivalent romantic comedy lead before her? And how did she

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Speaker 1: change it. What was her significance like as an actual artist, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean I.

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Speaker 2: Think it was this constructed person.

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Speaker 4: Look, obviously she took this idea of the sort of

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Speaker 4: daffy I don't want to say like dumb blonde because

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Speaker 4: that's not what she was, but like the sort of

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Speaker 4: air head like Thatta obviously existed before Marilyn, Like I think,

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Speaker 4: you know, Judy Holliday is like a great example of

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Speaker 4: that as well, but with like a sort of New

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Speaker 4: York brassy bent.

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Speaker 2: But I think the thing about Marilyn was like she

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Speaker 2: was her.

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Speaker 4: Own archetype, you know, before and after no one really

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Speaker 4: did it like exactly the same. You know, there were

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Speaker 4: other famous lawns I think, you know, in the sort

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Speaker 4: of like arc of the Screwball era, the Billy Wilder

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Speaker 4: comedies had a different bent than the Lubitch comedies of

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Speaker 4: the late thirties early forties or the Preston Sturge's comedies,

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Speaker 4: even though he actually wrote a lot of those, and

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Speaker 4: so something like some like It hut framed her. She

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Speaker 4: was completely unique. She wasn't the sort of mile a

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Speaker 4: minute talker of a Catherine Hepburn or even an Irene

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Speaker 4: done like she didn't have that. What she had was

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Speaker 4: this persona that I think sort of like engulfed whatever

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Speaker 4: space that she was in, whether that's like how to

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Speaker 4: Marry a Millionaire or like Gentlemen Prefer Blondes, or obviously

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Speaker 4: some like it hot. She drew attention, and some of

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Speaker 4: that was the way she looked and the way her

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Speaker 4: voice done it, but also it was her ability to

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Speaker 4: find the comic prowess, like how to Marry a Millionaire

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Speaker 4: I think is like a great example. She's sort of

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Speaker 4: playing a nerdy version of Marilyn Monroe, and that like

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Speaker 4: she literally has the like rom com like take off

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Speaker 4: your glasses a moment because she like can't see and

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Speaker 4: that's like a whole joke in the movie. But she

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Speaker 4: is hitting every beat and every joke. But it's really

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Speaker 4: hard to put her in the context of anyone else

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Speaker 4: because she stands so alone. I do think that one

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Speaker 4: of the things that in some ways different to her

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Speaker 4: from like a lot of rom common heroines and a

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Speaker 4: lot of like people who took these roles is yes,

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Speaker 4: she was largely viewed for like a male point of view,

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Speaker 4: like I think gentlemen prefer bonds and like how to

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Speaker 4: marry a millionaire sort of like stand alone from that.

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Speaker 2: But seven year Itch is literally all about a man.

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Speaker 4: Whose wife is away, who she moves upstairs and he

396
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Speaker 4: loses his mind. Some like it hot. She's a jazzinger.

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Speaker 4: You know, she has her own thing, but it is

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Speaker 4: Tony Curtis like losing his mind over her, and I

399
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Speaker 4: think that is a way she stood apart and how

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Speaker 4: it's sometimes also difficult to engage with who was Marilyn

401
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Speaker 4: outside of this gaze.

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Speaker 1: I am ashamed to say that for someone who like

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Speaker 1: thinks of myself as a if not cinophile, then at

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Speaker 1: least like watcher of movie is. Yeah, I hadn't really

405
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:03,919
Speaker 1: done the deep dive maybe until the pandemic. And I

406
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,480
Speaker 1: remember when I watched Gentlemen Preferred Blondes. It was like

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Speaker 1: the only other thing I can compare it to is

408
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Speaker 1: when I watched Cabaret for the first time and I

409
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Speaker 1: was like, Okay, so Liza Minelli in this is like

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Speaker 1: a game changer. It's like I've never I've never seen

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Speaker 1: someone do what she does here totally, even if you

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Speaker 1: go into it knowing like I've never not known who

413
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Speaker 1: Isa Manelli. Even if you go into it knowing exactly

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Speaker 1: who she is, it's still as though you're seeing something

415
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Speaker 1: for the first time. Any image you have in your

416
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,479
Speaker 1: head is gone. And it's the same with Marilyn. I

417
00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,840
Speaker 1: grew up always knowing who Marilyn Monroe was, but she

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Speaker 1: is so good that it's like the image of her

419
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Speaker 1: in the subway grade or like the Andy Warhol poster,

420
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Speaker 1: like none of that exists anymore because you're actually seeing

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Speaker 1: someone do something you've never seen before.

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Speaker 3: I feel completely the same, And I remember seeing some

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Speaker 3: like it hot when I was a teenager, and I

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Speaker 3: feel like as an American, I've always also known who

425
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Speaker 3: Marilyn is. But I feel like my mom really like

426
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,760
Speaker 3: introduced me to Marylyn as a comedic actor. She was like,

427
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:04,760
Speaker 3: we have to watch them, like Marylyn is so funny.

428
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Speaker 3: And my mom also loves The Misfits and she's like

429
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,600
Speaker 3: she gives such like a beautiful performance and the Misfits.

430
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Speaker 3: So I feel like any more than surface level reading

431
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Speaker 3: of Marylynd, you know there's more under the surface, and

432
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,359
Speaker 3: how talented and funny she was, and what like a

433
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Speaker 3: striver she was, Oh.

434
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Speaker 4: Yeah, and she wasn't just funny, like I mean, Niagara

435
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,560
Speaker 4: is a great performance. The myth is the great performance

436
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:31,480
Speaker 4: like she did have range, which dovetails with blonde, is

437
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,080
Speaker 4: like to talk about the boxes that she was put into.

438
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:36,879
Speaker 4: But I think the thing is is like the mythology

439
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,080
Speaker 4: around her, which feels so overwhelming. But then, like I

440
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:41,919
Speaker 4: think what we're also saying is if you look at

441
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,760
Speaker 4: the performances individually, it is impossible to argue that she

442
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:47,280
Speaker 4: did not know exactly what she was doing and she

443
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:51,160
Speaker 4: wasn't giving performances too like actual performances.

444
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, she was fully in the driver's seat. And that's

445
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 3: the thing that I always hate again, this idea that

446
00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,120
Speaker 3: she was not in on the joke and that all

447
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 3: of the comedic elements were accidental or were happening in

448
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:07,159
Speaker 3: spite of her. I mean, obviously it's so reductive. But

449
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:09,520
Speaker 3: one of the million things that frustrates me about this

450
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 3: movie is that the idea of her as a striver,

451
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:19,400
Speaker 3: which she was, is kind of translated into a pure desperation.

452
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:22,720
Speaker 3: Like all the scenes of her in the actors studio

453
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 3: and her trying to be taken seriously, it's just pure

454
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:29,560
Speaker 3: desperation and fear.

455
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:32,680
Speaker 1: It also doesn't take it to its natural conclusion. It's

456
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,239
Speaker 1: like assuming, Okay, so she wanted to be seen as

457
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,919
Speaker 1: a serious actress and she never was and isn't that sad?

458
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,679
Speaker 1: And I think a similar scene, and this is a

459
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 1: great like segue back into the movie, a similar scene

460
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 1: is one of the few times you see her even

461
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,680
Speaker 1: kind of attempts to be empowered, is when she hangs

462
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:51,679
Speaker 1: up the phone on the studio when they tell her

463
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,200
Speaker 1: she's going to be paid less than she deserves for

464
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,680
Speaker 1: gentleman prefer blondes. And it's funny because then it's left

465
00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 1: like that, as though the implication being wow, she was

466
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 1: exploited even financially, when in fact, in real life she

467
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 1: actually formed her own production company, Marilyn Minu Productions, to

468
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,800
Speaker 1: try to do projects that she wanted to do, like

469
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 1: she did at some point reclaim her subjectivity, even partially.

470
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:17,679
Speaker 1: I'm not saying, you know, obviously she had a very

471
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 1: tragic life and tragic death, but it's not that she

472
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 1: was just a plaything for everyone and then she died again.

473
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,440
Speaker 2: It sort of goes back to the woke schold thing.

474
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:30,440
Speaker 4: Which is like, even when people lack agency, there are

475
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,879
Speaker 4: all these moments when they have agency, and this movie

476
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 4: gives her like absolutely zero agency ever, like even in

477
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,959
Speaker 4: the most desperate situations, like, yeah, it is human nature

478
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 4: to have glimpses of that, and this movie doesn't allow

479
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,800
Speaker 4: her to have any agency at all, and that's so frustrating.

480
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 2: It also just doesn't make for like a very good.

481
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,160
Speaker 3: Movie to get into the film as a film. This

482
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:59,919
Speaker 3: movie has some favorite actors in it, and that is,

483
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,199
Speaker 3: in and of itself kind of a crazy thing. Like

484
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,879
Speaker 3: I love Adrian Brodie, Julian Nicholson. I am like obsessed,

485
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:08,680
Speaker 3: obsessed with her.

486
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 2: She can do no wrong to me. When the movie

487
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:12,919
Speaker 2: opens with her, I was like, Oh, I had no

488
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 2: idea she was in this movie.

489
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:18,159
Speaker 3: And oh my god, I mean I love Bobby Cannibale,

490
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 3: I do too. Yeah, I love Ana Dharmis I love

491
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:23,880
Speaker 3: like I mean I loved her and Knives Out, which

492
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 3: was her big US debut. How did all these people

493
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 3: get tripped into this movie?

494
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 1: We're gonna take a short break, stay with.

495
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 5: Us, and we're back with more United States of Kennedy Estra.

496
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 1: Do you have any take on Andrew Dominic the director,

497
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 1: because I know that, as you said, he is sort

498
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,119
Speaker 1: of like a cult favorite. The only other movie is

499
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:01,879
Speaker 1: that I really have engaged with.

500
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 4: Is the the Assassination of Jesse James by the coward

501
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 4: Robert Corr, of.

502
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 1: Jesse James by the coward Robert cork So that I

503
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,439
Speaker 1: do remember being like, so I think I saw it

504
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 1: in theaters, and to be honest, maybe I just saw

505
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:18,120
Speaker 1: the trailer like it is one of those movies.

506
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 3: Yea.

507
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:22,400
Speaker 1: The look of it is so instantly iconic because it has,

508
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 1: you know, these like long shots of the desert and

509
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 1: these two like very famous actors. It's like sort of

510
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 1: Brad Pitt like his most attractive and I do remember

511
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 1: that being kind of like a big Awards contender. What

512
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 1: is his reputation otherwise as a filmmaker.

513
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 4: I mean, I think his reputation as a filmmaker is

514
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:45,160
Speaker 4: very ambitious projects like Assassination of Jesse James that take

515
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 4: a very long time for him to make. He is

516
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 4: not a really prolific filmmaker. Before Blonde, all of his

517
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 4: films were very male focused. He followed up Jesse James

518
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,880
Speaker 4: with Killing Them Softly, which is another Brad pit project.

519
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:00,440
Speaker 2: That's sort of like a crime drama.

520
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 4: So this felt like they swerve for him thematically, But

521
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 4: because Jesse James is so well loved and killing themselfuly.

522
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 2: He also has like a lot of fans.

523
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 4: He maintains a little bit of one of those sort

524
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 4: of like underappreciated auteur status. I don't know if Blonde

525
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,440
Speaker 4: hurt that a little bit, but I think Blonde has enough.

526
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 2: Fans that it also still.

527
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 4: Maintained that because it is a movie that, in its divisiveness,

528
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,239
Speaker 4: like it has like well, he really did it, and

529
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:40,200
Speaker 4: he's such a stylist that it still maintained.

530
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 2: That status for him.

531
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 4: And you know, so I think he has a ton

532
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 4: of stuff that never made it to the screen. He's

533
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,160
Speaker 4: like one of those people that sort of like always

534
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:54,199
Speaker 4: has stuff in limbo. So whenever there's a movie of his,

535
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 4: it feels like an event too, because it's like, well,

536
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 4: he doesn't make them all that often, and sometimes they're incredible.

537
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 2: Crazy to think that this movie as fans it does.

538
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,679
Speaker 1: And I was going through actual professional critics reviews and

539
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 1: also people's letterbox reviews. I mean, it is a classic

540
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,479
Speaker 1: case of like a devisive movie. It reminds me of

541
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 1: Darren Aronofsky's Mother or something. Yeah, personally speaking, I actually

542
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 1: do like Darren Aronofk's mother, which I know is controversial.

543
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,719
Speaker 1: But unfortunately, as much as I want to be like

544
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 1: it's horrible in every way and I'm throwing it out,

545
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 1: you do clearly feel like he is an incredibly talented

546
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 1: filmmaker and manipulator of images, and if he were to

547
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,639
Speaker 1: be given a script that he had nothing to do

548
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,400
Speaker 1: with and not allowed to veer from it, he could

549
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 1: make like an amazing movie about Marilyn Monroe.

550
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 3: You know, many, many such cases with directors with a tour,

551
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 3: directors where you're like, you should not have written the screenplay.

552
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 1: M hmm.

553
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 3: If you had just directed someone else's screenplay, this would

554
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 3: have been maybe serviceable. But I will say that the

555
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 3: movie looks great. It's extremely stylish. There's some really interesting shots.

556
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 3: He's doing a lot with perspective. He slaps a GoPro

557
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 3: on Bobby Cannavale and Anna at one point, like it's

558
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 3: cool to look at That is kind of where my

559
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 3: praise ends.

560
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 2: Not a cool score, Nick Cave and where else? Yeah,

561
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 2: that's true. Good score, Yes it does.

562
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 1: I mean. This is a quote from Bilga Berri's Vulture review,

563
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 1: which says Dominic has structured the film largely around impeccable

564
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 1: recreations of images from Maryland's career, but each recreation then

565
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 1: gives way to something terrifying, and that is exactly what

566
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 1: it is. You recognize images from photos you've seen, from

567
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 1: famous clips of movies. There is obviously her with the

568
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: white dress on the subway grade. There is her wearing

569
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 1: like the black turtleneck, sitting on a couch. It's images

570
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,719
Speaker 1: that you don't even realize are buried deep in your

571
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 1: brain until you see them and you have sort of

572
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 1: deja vus. And I think it's such a film school

573
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: impulse to be like, you know, what I'm gonna do

574
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 1: is take famous images and then prove that there's darkness

575
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: behind them. Like it's to me, it feels like an

576
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: exercise you do in a class or something like. I

577
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 1: hate to be so reductive, but I do think that

578
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 1: describes the flow of the movie because it is a

579
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 1: very dreamlike movie that is like a series of vignettes almost,

580
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 1: And I think that is actually, for all its faults,

581
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 1: is done well at least like structurally, like I think

582
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: the movie coheres even if the content is completely evil.

583
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's more of a nightmare. Yeah, that's one of

584
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 2: the things. I don't know. It's all the challenging as

585
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 2: a critic to think about, because it's like.

586
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 4: I think he succeeds at what he set out to

587
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 4: do very well. He set out to make people uncomfortable.

588
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 4: He set out to implicate his audience in Maryland's torture.

589
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 4: But it is one of those things where you know,

590
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 4: sometimes you just disagree with the content of a work,

591
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 4: and that is how I feel about this. You know

592
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 4: that if you evaluate purely on like is this what

593
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 4: he wanted us to feel, then yeah, he accomplished it.

594
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 4: I just think it is a wrongheaded way to go

595
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 4: about telling this story, even though he would also argue, well,

596
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 4: it's not the story you think you're telling, but like, okay.

597
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 1: Right, I mean, I do want to quote him a

598
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 1: little bit because it might seem like we're all being reductive,

599
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 1: but I honestly think his quotes speak for themselves. I mean,

600
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 1: I found this Variety article that was sort of like

601
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: in the beginning of controversy about the film before it

602
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: was even released. You know, there was a lot of

603
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 1: stuff around how for example, Netflix brought in an editor

604
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,719
Speaker 1: to curb some of the excesses of the movie, and

605
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 1: then he said Blonde is quote a demanding movie. If

606
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 1: the audience doesn't like it, that's the fucking audience's problem.

607
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,719
Speaker 1: I'm not running for public office. And this goes back

608
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 1: to his heart quote unquote being in the right place.

609
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: One of the things he said was if Blonde had

610
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: opened several years ago, it would have come out right

611
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 1: when Me Too hit, and it would have been an

612
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 1: expression of all that stuff where in a time now

613
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 1: I think where people are really uncertain about where the

614
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 1: lines are. It's a film that definitely has a morality

615
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 1: about it, but it's swims and very ambiguous because I

616
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 1: don't think it will be as cut and dry as

617
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 1: people want to see it. There's something in it to

618
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 1: offend everyone. One of the shocking things about it is

619
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 1: that he really thinks it's a feminist movie, I guess

620
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 1: is what I'm trying to say, Like, that's what he's

621
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 1: trying to say with this me Too quote.

622
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:14,719
Speaker 2: I mean, Anna Dharmas said it explicitly.

623
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 3: She said, this is like the most feminist rendering of

624
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 3: the Marilyn Monroe story that we've ever seen. Like shit,

625
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 3: they were marketing it as like a feminist movie, which

626
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 3: is cuckoo to me because it's like again, it is

627
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 3: like such a nightmare, Like everything that happens to her

628
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 3: is just this unrelenting torrent of abuse.

629
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 5: It.

630
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 1: Also, he very explicitly and candidly talks about how it's

631
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 1: his first time making a movie about a woman, and

632
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 1: there's something about it that's so almost pure and innocent

633
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,239
Speaker 1: about it. He just goes, it's a different thing for

634
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 1: me to do. The main character is female. My films

635
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 1: are fairly bereft of women, and now I'm imagining what

636
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 1: it's like to be one. Like it really is just

637
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: like incredible.

638
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 2: Wow.

639
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 1: Anyway, So Esther, you're someone who sort of you are

640
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 1: going to every film festival. You're like in the sort

641
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 1: of muck of the entertainment industry, and you know what

642
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: an Oscar campaign consists of what it means for something

643
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 1: to premiere at Venice, versus Toronto, versus Tell your Ride,

644
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 1: like all these things that there's such a mythology around them.

645
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,719
Speaker 1: What do you remember of the release of this film

646
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 1: and of the Oscar campaign around it. It's a unique

647
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 1: film to me because it was a h or not

648
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 1: post pandemic, sort of mid pandemic, post lockdown Netflix release

649
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 1: that also had been in development hell for a while

650
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 1: I mean the first time this was ever in pre

651
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: production was in May twenty ten and Naomi Watts was

652
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 1: going to play Marilyn Monroe. So this is just one

653
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 1: of those classic Hollywood twenty year long production story. So, like,

654
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 1: what do you remember from that time as an entertainment journalist.

655
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 4: I mean, this was definitely for Netflix and era where

656
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 4: they were coming out of their Like Netflix is at

657
00:33:55,800 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 4: a weird place, but it's like Awards baity movies right now. Yeah,

658
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 4: It's very much felt like a holdover from the days

659
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 4: of Netflix where it was like hey, Martin Scrosease, no

660
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 4: one's allowed you to make the Irishman. I'm going to

661
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 4: let you make the Irishman, you know, or like giving

662
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 4: people the money to make their passion projects that like

663
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 4: no one else would let them make, and those being

664
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 4: relatively to a certain degree like successful awards wise never

665
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 4: winning Best Picture, but like Jane Campion got, you know,

666
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:26,400
Speaker 4: Best Director.

667
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 2: For Power of the Dog. Probably like my favorite of

668
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:28,800
Speaker 2: that bunch.

669
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 1: Roma is a classic example of this.

670
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 4: Ara Roma is a classic I mean, now at this

671
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 4: point in time, they were sort of coming out of

672
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,359
Speaker 4: that a little bit and realizing that they were going

673
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 4: to have a harder time cracking the top.

674
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 2: I actually think that you're they didn't make any Best Picture.

675
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 2: But I think there was a.

676
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,839
Speaker 4: Sense with this one from the beginning that it was

677
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:52,319
Speaker 4: semi It was not doomed because it got heard the

678
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,919
Speaker 4: Best Actress nomination, but there was a sense that this

679
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 4: isn't going to be the huge Awards hopeful people think

680
00:34:58,600 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 4: it's going to be. I think it's sort of a

681
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,319
Speaker 4: remarkable that she ended up getting the actress nomination, But

682
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:05,839
Speaker 4: it was a fucking weird year.

683
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 2: Let's not forget.

684
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, tell us about the Best Actress race if you're remember.

685
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 4: Well, so Michelle Yo won for everything everywhere, all at once,

686
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 4: which just ended up starting to dominate everything. The other

687
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 4: sort of leading contender was Kate Blanchet in Tar, which

688
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 4: arguably should have won.

689
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:23,879
Speaker 1: Well, yes, I think you're not going to get any

690
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 1: disagreements from this crowd.

691
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, and by arguing and you like definitely should have won.

692
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 2: So this is a Lydia targround.

693
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 4: But Auto made it in. And then this was the

694
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 4: year of Andrea Riseborough sneaking a nomination for to Leslie,

695
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 4: which was a movie.

696
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 2: No one or ever heard of. And then subtly.

697
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:47,320
Speaker 4: You know, her friends, including Francis Fisher and Kate Winslet,

698
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 4: started sort of campaigning for it, and it.

699
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:51,239
Speaker 2: Got her in.

700
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:55,799
Speaker 4: It also got her in over Danielle Deadwiler for Till,

701
00:35:55,880 --> 00:36:00,800
Speaker 4: which is like an amazing performance and it really controversial.

702
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:02,800
Speaker 4: Also then the other nominee was Michelle Williams and the

703
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 4: fableman of performance. I love that, Like some people argue

704
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 4: you should have gone supporting, and it would have won if.

705
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 2: She had done that. So I think it was a

706
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 2: strange another former Maryland, former Maryland who got oh that's raight, yeah,

707
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 2: and she got a nomination for that too. She got

708
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 2: an Oscar nomination with Marylynd.

709
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,319
Speaker 4: So I think the fact that it was able to

710
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 4: get that was a sign of a.

711
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 2: Pretty weak field or maybe not weak, but very.

712
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,879
Speaker 4: Unsettled field in Best Actress that year where a lot

713
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 4: of weird shit was happening, and you know, playing Marilyn

714
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 4: is actually like you know, as you talking about Michelle

715
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 4: william did it like it's sort of an easy way

716
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 4: to get acclaim, which is strange because I think no

717
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 4: one's done it like really well. But people are like, oh, well,

718
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:53,400
Speaker 4: you did the voice and you did the vulnerability, and

719
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 4: so therefore you deserveta for it.

720
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 3: Can I just interject and say that one of my

721
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 3: big frustrations with both Mache and Anna and many depictions

722
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 3: of Marylynd is that the actresses a player never gained

723
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:09,319
Speaker 3: enough way Yeah to I think realistically depict her and

724
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 3: it really bothers me because it was her signature. It

725
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,439
Speaker 3: was harder, her whole thing and her sex appeal was

726
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 3: being a little fuller figured, and it pissed me off

727
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:21,879
Speaker 3: in my week with Marylyn, and it pissed me off

728
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,280
Speaker 3: here and I'm like, you could have gained ten pounds.

729
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 2: Would that have killed you? Come on?

730
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 1: Yeah? It is interesting that transformations people are willing to

731
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 1: go through versus not willing, and the types of things

732
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 1: that you sacrifice or not sacrifice for authenticity's sake. Yeah,

733
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 1: Because actually, now that I'm thinking about it, I think

734
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 1: that probably bothered me more than the accent, because the

735
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:44,800
Speaker 1: accent as much as going into it, I thought it

736
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:46,840
Speaker 1: would bother me. You know what it sort of just

737
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 1: reminded me of is like a Nicole Kidman performance. Nicole Kidman,

738
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 1: who's like one of my favorite actresses, always does sound

739
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 1: a little off, and in fact, a specific performance that

740
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 1: is very similar to this accent wise is her as

741
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,439
Speaker 1: Lucille Ball and being the Recard because Lucille Ball has

742
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 1: such a specific accent, and no matter how talented she is,

743
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 1: Nicole Kidman cannot do it. But it sort of just

744
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 1: doesn't matter because she like embodies the larger spirit of that.

745
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 2: Anna as Marilyn is better than Nicole as Lucille Ball.

746
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 4: And I might actually, I agree, weirdly, I might actually

747
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,720
Speaker 4: dislike being the Ricardo's more than.

748
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 2: I dislike blonde.

749
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 1: This is the kend of words, and like, this is

750
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,280
Speaker 1: not about being the Cards, but personally speaking, I hated

751
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 1: being Ricardos. It was like, it's an easy example to

752
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 1: bring up. I legitimately stopped it halfway through. And I

753
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 1: have many friends in my life, many gay men, who

754
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 1: claim that it was a masterpiece, and I was like,

755
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 1: you guys, we have to be realistic here.

756
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 2: So you didn't even see the part where Jagger Hoover

757
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 2: like saves the day.

758
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 1: I literally did not, actually, to be honest, I didn't.

759
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 2: And you're like, Aaron, what are we doing here?

760
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:51,320
Speaker 1: Incredible?

761
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 3: No, Well that's well that's exactly the same thing where

762
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:56,800
Speaker 3: it's like Aaron sworkin should be writing screenplays, not directing.

763
00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 3: He should not be doing both, and too many of

764
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 3: these guys want to do both.

765
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 6: Yeah, we'll be back with more United States of Kennedy

766
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 6: after this break.

767
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 2: And we're back with more United States of Kennedy.

768
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 1: So, speaking of the screenplay, I want to sort of

769
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 1: list a few of the controversy's slash accolades surrounding it.

770
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 1: I hate to mention the Razzies because it's such a

771
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:35,400
Speaker 1: cliche thing at this point. It did win Worst Picture

772
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 1: and Worst Screenplay at the Razzies. Another controversial thing about

773
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,319
Speaker 1: it is that it did have an NC seventeen rating,

774
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 1: and it stayed NC seventeen throughout its Netflix release and

775
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,320
Speaker 1: throughout the Oscars. I would assume a big part of

776
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 1: that was specifically the blowjob scene, which we should talk

777
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 1: about at least a little bit, since it's a Kennedy,

778
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:57,879
Speaker 1: it's the one Kennedy connection. Another thing is, as I said,

779
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 1: Netflix brought in Jennifer Lame, who is the editor that

780
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 1: worked on Hereditarian Tenet to do it past at the

781
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,959
Speaker 1: movie there were accusations that it has kind of pro

782
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 1: life elements, which I would love to hear both of

783
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:15,279
Speaker 1: your takes and of course, you know, many people also

784
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:18,320
Speaker 1: just did not fully grasp it. It was a fictionalized account,

785
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,799
Speaker 1: so there was also confusion around like, what are we

786
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:22,320
Speaker 1: doing here? Why is she in a throttle?

787
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:24,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is exactly what I was talking about.

788
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:26,799
Speaker 3: It intentionally, it blurs the line between what is fact

789
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 3: and what is fiction, So it kind of tries to

790
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 3: make itself immune to any criticism of depiction because it's like, well,

791
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 3: it's fictional, but a lot of it isn't. So I

792
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 3: hated that the pro life angle of this is so weird.

793
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:43,879
Speaker 2: I was really not expecting it.

794
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 3: But basically, if you haven't seen the movie, Marilyn becomes

795
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 3: pregnant via her thrupple we don't know which one of

796
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:52,279
Speaker 3: them is the father, and then she gets like a

797
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 3: big movie and decides that she has to get an abortion.

798
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 3: But then as she's driving there, she decides she doesn't

799
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 3: want to do it and in her mind, and that

800
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 3: already sets the scene for being a little murky. And

801
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 3: then you go into her uterus in the movie and

802
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:09,880
Speaker 3: you see the fetus, which is a fetus that is

803
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 3: much further along than what it would have been at

804
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:15,240
Speaker 3: that point in the pregnancy. It's like a fully formed

805
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 3: baby at that point when I think she was only

806
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 3: supposed to be like six weeks along, six or eight

807
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:21,920
Speaker 3: weeks long or something like that, and it would have

808
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 3: just been like a bunch of cells. It would not

809
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 3: have been a baby with hands and eyes, which is

810
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 3: what they show you. And then they do it again

811
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 3: when she is pregnant with Arthur Miller's baby, which really happened.

812
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 3: She was pregnant, she did miscarrie, and she gets pregnant

813
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 3: with this baby, and then once again they go into

814
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 3: her uterus and it is a fully formed baby. And

815
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 3: then the baby talks to her and says, are you gonna.

816
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 2: Do it again? Are you gonna do what you did

817
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 2: to me before? And then she's like, you're not even

818
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 2: the same baby. It wasn't you.

819
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,799
Speaker 3: I want you, And the baby is like, no, it

820
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 3: was me. It's always been me, and it's just crazy again.

821
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:04,879
Speaker 3: This is one of those things where I'm like, well,

822
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 3: this yes, this is a movie that is made by

823
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 3: a man, certainly.

824
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:10,319
Speaker 1: And it's another way in which it sets you up

825
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 1: to be woke, schoold, because like, of course the answer

826
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 1: to everything we're saying is well, yes, that's not what

827
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,839
Speaker 1: the fetus actually looks like but she's imagining it as

828
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 1: a baby because she is mourning the potential of her

829
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:27,280
Speaker 1: child's life. And it's like, yes, but it is actually

830
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 1: still bad.

831
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, It's not like.

832
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,239
Speaker 4: I feel like Dominic was consciously like, no, I want

833
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 4: to make a pro life statement at all with this movie.

834
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:39,320
Speaker 4: It's just inadvertently such because in the way he's trying

835
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 4: to be sort of impressionistic with it, it's just like, well, yeah,

836
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:45,879
Speaker 4: but that's what it seems like. It seems like you're

837
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 4: making a statement that all of her fetuses over the

838
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 4: years could talk to her and our fully formed life,

839
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 4: and aborting them is a terrible, terrible thing to do.

840
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:59,760
Speaker 3: It kind of reminded me of how Juno is unintentionally

841
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 3: pro life movie because Juno is convinced not to get

842
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 3: an abortion by an abortion clinic protester who tells her

843
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:08,800
Speaker 3: that her baby has fingernails.

844
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, which, yes, it's something I think about often. Honestly,

845
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:15,800
Speaker 1: that this movie that is very much not at all

846
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 1: men to be politically conservative. No one misinterprets it that way.

847
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 1: It's not like people are coming out of it being like,

848
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:23,920
Speaker 1: I guess they should be pro life, but it just

849
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 1: is this funny detail that is not interrogated at all

850
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 1: in the film. Yeah, but it's also it's funny because

851
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:32,279
Speaker 1: it is chew to life, because you can imagine a

852
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:37,360
Speaker 1: teen believing something they hear from an unreliable source totally

853
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 1: and you don't want the movie to like hammer you

854
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 1: over the head with it. But because it is just

855
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 1: it is something that could happen. You're confused at that age.

856
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:46,439
Speaker 1: You don't know whatever Juno aside, because at least Juno

857
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:49,319
Speaker 1: is in the film a teenage girl. Marilyn actually is

858
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 1: a grown woman who is not granted any It's as

859
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 1: though she is a child and as though she genuinely

860
00:43:57,719 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 1: doesn't understand how like pregnancy works.

861
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, but I mean also it's the way, I mean,

862
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 4: the other thing that feels icky and pro life to

863
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 4: me is the way that the abortions themselves are framed

864
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:16,920
Speaker 4: as rape essentially. Yes, they are another example of a

865
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 4: man taking her agency away from her.

866
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 2: It's a really violent scene. Yeah, it's really really violent.

867
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 4: It's really upsetting, and it's another litany of the way

868
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:30,280
Speaker 4: she was abused by the system of man.

869
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:32,799
Speaker 3: And we should say, because we haven't even mentioned the

870
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 3: actual rape that happens in the movie, which happens like

871
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 3: pretty early on, and she goes in to read for

872
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 3: a studio head and he just wordlessly starts raping her,

873
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:47,960
Speaker 3: which is also very upsetting. There is no shortage of

874
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 3: rape in film, but this movie really like hits you

875
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:54,879
Speaker 3: over the head again and again with abuse and mistreatment,

876
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:57,319
Speaker 3: and she is infantilized. I mean, and like the real

877
00:44:57,360 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 3: Marilyn was infantilized and that was part of her public persona,

878
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 3: doing the baby voice. But yeah, I think the thing

879
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 3: over and over again that bothers me is this film

880
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 3: really gives her no agency and makes her completely at

881
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 3: the whim of abusive men.

882
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:16,720
Speaker 1: Speaking of which we should talk about the one scene

883
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 1: where we have a Kennedy present, which a sort of

884
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:22,920
Speaker 1: fun fact is that the actor who plays JFK in

885
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 1: the film also plays JFK in Bubble Rains Jackie with

886
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:29,440
Speaker 1: Natalie Portman, which we've talked about on this podcast. Just

887
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 1: to very briefly describe the scene, she is in a car,

888
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 1: she says in conversation something like, my relationship with the

889
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 1: president is not sexual or something along those lines, and

890
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:45,920
Speaker 1: then two secret Service agents basically carry her like in

891
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 1: a very literal way, like a sack of meat will

892
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:50,880
Speaker 1: lift her off the ground to carry her into the

893
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 1: president's bedroom. JFK is lying half naked on the bed

894
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 1: on the phone with someone who is in fact scolding

895
00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:03,400
Speaker 1: him about his affairs, about his promiscuity, and while that's happening,

896
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 1: he asks her to give him a blowjob. That happens

897
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:10,359
Speaker 1: in real time, like you know, you literally see her

898
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 1: going up and down, and he keeps saying like no, go,

899
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:17,399
Speaker 1: more like come on, like whatever, don't be shy, don't

900
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 1: be shy. And then when he climaxes, it coincides with

901
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 1: a scene in a movie that they're watching where a

902
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 1: building explodes because a UFO goes into it. I shually,

903
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 1: so yeah, and so for our purposes, I mean, the

904
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 1: esthetics and just like kind of inherent I don't know,

905
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 1: misogynistic undertones of the scene aside for our purposes. Something

906
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:40,960
Speaker 1: that is interesting about the scene is that I would say,

907
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,720
Speaker 1: of all the Kennedy media we have consumed, with maybe

908
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:48,240
Speaker 1: the exception of some left wing historians, this is probably

909
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 1: the worst depiction of a Kennedy we've ever seen. I mean,

910
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 1: for as much as the movie doesn't respect Marilyn at

911
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 1: the very least, it also doesn't respect any of the

912
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 1: men that were objuesve to her. I mean, he is

913
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 1: portrayed as worse than her abusive husband, worse than Arthur Miller,

914
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 1: worse than anyone who.

915
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 2: Gave her first Joe Demascio, like.

916
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:08,799
Speaker 1: Gave her drugs, gave her pills, whatever. Like, he is

917
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 1: really portrayed as just like a completely a moral, sex addicted,

918
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 1: abusive kind of monster, which I thought was at the

919
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 1: very least interesting in the scheme of like the topics

920
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 1: of this podcast.

921
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:26,719
Speaker 4: Also, doesn't it imply that like after the blowjob, he

922
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 4: then rapes her, or at least you know, because then

923
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 4: she it sort of cuts and she wakes up in

924
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:35,960
Speaker 4: the morning and her like lipstick is smeared and she's

925
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 4: incapacitated to a certain degree.

926
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:41,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, which at that point, so much has happened to her.

927
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:45,759
Speaker 1: I mean, shandergoes just a series of increasingly violent humiliations

928
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 1: that I mean, we get to Kennedy two and a

929
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 1: half hours into the movie basically of a three hour movie,

930
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 1: and so at that point you're sort of barely registering

931
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 1: the specifics of the violence that's taking place, which of

932
00:47:57,280 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 1: course has the opposite intended effect of reclaiming her store

933
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:01,919
Speaker 1: or you're making you have any empathy for her, because

934
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 1: you're basically kind of numbs you exactly, it like noice

935
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 1: you completely, and then at the end you're just like,

936
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 1: please just make it stop. Yeah.

937
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 3: And I think one of the things too, is again

938
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:16,400
Speaker 3: with the violence. Joe DiMaggio was known to be physically

939
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 3: abusive to her and she left him, and none of

940
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:22,839
Speaker 3: that was shown, like the abuse happened. And then it's

941
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 3: like her father sending her a letter saying like I'm

942
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:28,080
Speaker 3: sorry to see that your marriage is ending in divorce.

943
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:31,200
Speaker 3: There's no moment of agency where she's like, I'm leaving,

944
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 3: which actually did happen. She decided she didn't want to

945
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:36,879
Speaker 3: deal with that anymore in the real Maryland left, but.

946
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:39,399
Speaker 1: It just doesn't fit into the narrative of the film. Yeah,

947
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 1: that's like she is just a perpetual victim.

948
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 3: It's two hours and forty five minutes of stuff happening

949
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:47,879
Speaker 3: to her, which is it is this whole movie. That's

950
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 3: what frustrates me most about this is that she is

951
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 3: just kind of along.

952
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 1: For the ride.

953
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:55,840
Speaker 2: And I don't know, I just don't know how like

954
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 2: where is the feminism.

955
00:48:57,520 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, well we got to get on into Armisan and

956
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:03,279
Speaker 1: she will she will explain well esther. Sorry to end

957
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 1: on such a sunny note, but do you have any

958
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:08,920
Speaker 1: sense I mean, I want to basically ask your final thoughts, like,

959
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 1: do you have any sense of if there's any lasting

960
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 1: legacy of this movie? To me, it's such a like

961
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:16,360
Speaker 1: blip in time, much like so much Netflix stuff that

962
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 1: seems important in the moment. Honestly, now, when I think

963
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 1: back to this movie, all I think of.

964
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 2: Is Girl Give a Great Lot, which I think about

965
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:25,720
Speaker 2: a lot.

966
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:28,280
Speaker 4: I mean, I think, honestly that's less of a fault

967
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:31,400
Speaker 4: of the movie itself and more of the fault of Netflix,

968
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 4: which I think has the habit of doing this too.

969
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:36,799
Speaker 4: Because I think, whatever you want to say about this movie,

970
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 4: which we've sort of wrestled with over the course of

971
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:40,800
Speaker 4: this conversation, like I think it's sort of evil.

972
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 2: I think it's very frustrating.

973
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:45,760
Speaker 4: I do think it is a work of art worth

974
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:49,719
Speaker 4: reckoning with because of what it's attempting to do.

975
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 2: And you have to imagine that if it wasn't just.

976
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 4: A Netflix release that played in like two theaters in

977
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 4: New York for a couple minutes and then was thrown

978
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:01,360
Speaker 4: on the platform, like it would have more of a

979
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 4: legacy in that respect. I think it's just that in

980
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:07,840
Speaker 4: that case, it feels so much more like a part

981
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:10,319
Speaker 4: of this weird time of like, yeah, we have all

982
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:13,400
Speaker 4: these like crazy things happening, but because of streaming, they

983
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:14,360
Speaker 4: sort of don't exist.

984
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:16,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny because obviously none of us like the movie.

985
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:19,319
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, I'm almost nostalgic even for

986
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 1: a recent past where a movie this Cuckoo could even

987
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 1: get made and be put on a streamer.

988
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:28,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know loving you know, not to sell

989
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:31,680
Speaker 4: like corny, but like loving cinemas, like hating sometimes movies

990
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:35,280
Speaker 4: and arguing about them. And like, I think it only

991
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:38,960
Speaker 4: got made in the form that it did because Netflix existed.

992
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:42,520
Speaker 4: But because of the circumstance, it really feels memory hold.

993
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:46,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally, well, memory hold, both for sad and

994
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:50,920
Speaker 1: for correct reasons. I think we can all agree. Esther,

995
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on and again, apologies

996
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 1: for making you we watch at least parts of this

997
00:50:56,560 --> 00:51:00,080
Speaker 1: three hour slog fest. Thank you, bye bye.

998
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 2: So that's it for this week's episode.

999
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:05,399
Speaker 1: Subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for All Things

1000
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 1: Kennedy every week.

1001
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:09,840
Speaker 5: United States of Kennedy is hosted by me, Julia Clair

1002
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 5: and George Savers.

1003
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:13,879
Speaker 1: Original music by Joshua Tapolski.

1004
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:15,440
Speaker 2: Editing by Graham Gibson.

1005
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:17,279
Speaker 1: Mixing and mastering by Doug Bame.

1006
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:19,920
Speaker 2: Research by Dave Bruce and Austin Thompson.

1007
00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:21,720
Speaker 1: Our producer is Carmen Laurent.

1008
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:24,120
Speaker 2: Our executive producer is Jenna Cagele.

1009
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 1: Created by Lyra Smith.

1010
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:28,840
Speaker 2: United States of Kennedy is a production of her podcast,