1 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: Hey, you Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 2 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb. 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 2: And I am Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday, so we 4 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:15,240 Speaker 2: are heading down into the vault for an older episode 5 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 2: of Stuff to Blow Your Mind. This one originally published 6 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 2: on June twenty first, twenty twenty two, and this was 7 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 2: an interview you did Rob with an author named Martin 8 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 2: Wallin about the book Squid, which is I suppose about squid? 9 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: Right? Oh yes, yes, this is a fantastic little book. 10 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: I had a terrific time reading it and then just 11 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:42,239 Speaker 1: talking with Martin about all manner of squid content from 12 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: his booking, including what Aristotle understood about the squid? 13 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 2: Oh yes, was squid of the being essence or the 14 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 2: doing essence. 15 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: There's a lot of talking this about of the not 16 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: eating or the eating essence as well. So I hope 17 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: everyone enjoys the chat. Welcome to Stuff to Blow your 18 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 1: Mind production of iHeartRadio. Hi, welcome to Stuff to Blow 19 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb, and it's just 20 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 1: me today. Joe is away from work, so I reached 21 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: out to Martin Wallin, professor emeritus at Oklahoma State University 22 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: and author of numerous books, including the twenty twenty one 23 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: book Squid, part of the Reaction Animal series that we'll 24 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: be discussing here today. The book is out in both 25 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:38,759 Speaker 1: digital and physical forms, and I highly recommend it as 26 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: it dives into not only science and natural history, but 27 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:46,759 Speaker 1: also mythology, folklore, and literature. So without further ado, let's 28 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: jump right into the interview and discuss all of this 29 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: with Martin. Hi, Martin, welcome to the show. 30 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 3: Thank you very much. 31 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: Your book Squid, part of Reactions Animal series, came out 32 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: last year, and as I started reading it earlier, this 33 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: was exactly the sort of book that we'd love to 34 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 1: discuss on the show. So if I may cobble together 35 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 1: a couple of questions here, where did your interest in 36 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: cephalopods come from? And how did this book come together? 37 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 3: Right? Well, that's that's a nice question to figure in with. 38 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 3: I had written two other books about animals, one about foxes, 39 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 3: which is also part of the Reaction Animal series, and 40 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 3: I've written the book about dogs. The book but dogs 41 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 3: I actually started before the fox book, and that really 42 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 3: arose out of relationships I've had with horses. Oddly enough, 43 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 3: but because I've been around horses for a long time, 44 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 3: I've increasingly begun to wonder how to engage with or 45 00:02:56,280 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 3: how to write about, an animal with whom we half 46 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 3: engage in a completely nonverbal way and most effectively through 47 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 3: touch and other forms of sensory perception. And there's a 48 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 3: mode of being on horses that's done as being quiet, 49 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 3: but I could never quite work out a way to 50 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 3: deal with that. So I began thinking more pointedly about 51 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 3: my relationship with dogs and how we interact with dogs generally, 52 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 3: which led me then to think about relationships with non 53 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 3: domestic animals like foxes and so on. And then I 54 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 3: began to think, well, what about creatures that are even 55 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 3: more alien to us, creatures we probably don't interact with 56 00:03:56,120 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 3: on a daily level the way we interact with domestic animals, 57 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 3: or even the wild animals that might be passing through 58 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 3: our neighborhood. And I really began to question what animal 59 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 3: might I explore just in a perhaps a theoretical way 60 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 3: that would enable me to tackle questions like what is 61 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 3: it like to be in a world with unknown, unknowable creatures, 62 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,159 Speaker 3: not only ones we have to remain quiet about, but 63 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 3: once we can barely even begin speaking about, And so 64 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 3: I sort of exploring squids and found them enticingly bizarre, 65 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 3: uh and enticingly weird, and really just took up a 66 00:04:56,320 --> 00:05:01,720 Speaker 3: series of questions about about those strange, odd animals and 67 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 3: how human cultures have over the millennia tried to describe them, 68 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 3: or account for them, or express their anxieties about them 69 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 3: and so on. And that's where I ended up. 70 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I really love the way that you tackle the 71 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: subject of this of the animal of the squid in 72 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 1: this book, because you, you know, you approach it from 73 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 1: the you know, the philosophical and the naturalist viewpoint. You 74 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: get into the scientific research, both current and the end 75 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 1: of the previous century and so forth, and then then 76 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: you get into this idea of literary treatment, mythological treatment, 77 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: et cetera. So it's as I love the net that 78 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,719 Speaker 1: you cast in this But you begin with Aristotle in 79 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:52,279 Speaker 1: the fourth century BC, philosopher's attempts to understand and chronicle cephalopods. 80 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: What did Aristotle get right and what did he get wrong? 81 00:05:56,640 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 3: Well, first of all, I my push someone an ancient 82 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:06,479 Speaker 3: writer like Aristotle is that he's really working within his 83 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 3: cultural contexts. So in his view and in the view 84 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 3: of let's say, the classical Greek world. He got virtually 85 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:20,600 Speaker 3: everything right. What we would see that he got wrong 86 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 3: in that regard is when he describes the semplepads as bloodless, 87 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 3: because of course they're not bloodless. They simply have a 88 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 3: different color of blood than most of those terrestrial animals. 89 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 3: And when he makes references to certain qualities, like the 90 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:50,479 Speaker 3: fact that they lay imperfect eggs, because we think, well, 91 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 3: those are squid eggs and they're appropriate to squids, and 92 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 3: they're like squids, and that they're aqueous. But if I imperfect, 93 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:02,479 Speaker 3: he means that's the term he uses in reference to 94 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 3: other animals as well. By perfect, he really means that, uh, 95 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 3: the eggs don't remain, don't stay keep the same appearance 96 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 3: that they have when they're first laid by the mother squid. 97 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 3: By the way, I say, chicken eggs or lizard eggs 98 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 3: basically are laid as hard shelled eggs and say that 99 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 3: way until they're hatched. So that seemed like something incorrect 100 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:42,119 Speaker 3: in our thinking, but it's actually appropriate to Aristotle's uh 101 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 3: conceptual view of the world. Well, we generally say that 102 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 3: Aristotle got right, of course, uh is his physical descriptions 103 00:07:55,800 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 3: of of really all the animals and and everything he 104 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 3: he writes about UH. And that's that's what that's really 105 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:12,679 Speaker 3: what puts him at the very foundation of modern natural 106 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 3: philosophy and ultimately modern science, because he he does pay 107 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 3: a lot of attention and great care to the physical 108 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 3: appearance of squids UH, and and that enables him to 109 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:37,599 Speaker 3: make certain rudimentary UH classifications among the different kinds of squids. 110 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 3: It's also important to bear in mind, and maybe this 111 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 3: is on the wrong side, but it's more of a 112 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 3: qualification that Aristotle, being a Greek and a Greek of 113 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 3: the fourth century BCE, really stayed pretty close to shore. 114 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 3: He most of his observations of squids were done on 115 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 3: the island of Lesbos in the Gulf of Colony, rather 116 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:12,439 Speaker 3: than out in the deeper waters. So that means that 117 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 3: the squids he saw were the smaller inshore varieties of squids, 118 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 3: and possibly some of the some of the larger varieties 119 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 3: which he probably would have seen on fishermen's boats or 120 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 3: as dead specimens that floated ashore, and those would have 121 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 3: been less common to him. And so he doesn't offer 122 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 3: that many accounts of those squids, and nor does he 123 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:51,599 Speaker 3: really dealt into the differences between inshore and the offshore squids. 124 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 3: So no, that's that's what I would say, is let's 125 00:09:56,520 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 3: say right and wrong gish about ariostoles accounts. 126 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: Now you mentioned the fishermen, of course, and that leads 127 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: to the question, what was the culinary view of of 128 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: of squids and their relatives during Aristotle's time? 129 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 3: Well, that's that's an intriguing view. I think almost everyone 130 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:27,680 Speaker 3: who isn't a vegan has had calamari on our different 131 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:32,839 Speaker 3: kinds of squid. Squids are nice to eat, and they 132 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 3: were nice to eat then, except that the ancient Greeks 133 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 3: had a much more ambivalent view of of what we 134 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 3: call seafood than then we do. And that ambulance comes 135 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 3: from a general general revolsion toward the sea, which was 136 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 3: commonly referred to as being simply perfidious because it was 137 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:03,439 Speaker 3: a dangerous place. Uh. And uh you could sink, You, 138 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 3: being a human, could sink down below the surface and 139 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 3: never be seen again. Uh. And fish, including squids, were 140 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 3: known to eat humans. And so the idea of eating 141 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 3: an animal that eats humans uh just tends to stir 142 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 3: the stomach, but also tends to rub against the philosophical 143 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 3: view of medicine medame psychosis, which would suggest that if 144 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 3: squids are eating humans, then we are essentially eating humans 145 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 3: that have been transformed into squids by the digestive tract. Uh. 146 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 3: And that's something that that seemed to be immoral and 147 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 3: and culpable. So that people who did eat squids, and 148 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 3: there are numerous references to to this ethical view, people 149 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 3: who did eat squids were somehow morally suspect uh and 150 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 3: somehow we're either indulgent or not to be frosted. Part 151 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 3: of that view. I think it's gets exacerbated later on 152 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 3: by the high morality of someone like Plato who really 153 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 3: lived sort of puritanical or had a puritanical uh view 154 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 3: of the world. Uh. And so he he really condemned uh, 155 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 3: some of the writers who focused on their their diets 156 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 3: and what they enjoyed eating like squids. So oh it 157 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 3: was it was people. People ate them, almost certainly, but 158 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,839 Speaker 3: they were unhappy about eating them, at least in the 159 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 3: Greek world. Uh. And notably, there are very few visual 160 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 3: depictions of squids or even marine life, apart from the 161 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 3: Saint dolphins until pretty late in the Greek world. 162 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 1: Now, why is there so much terminological confusion concerning squids, octopuses, 163 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: and cuttlefish in classical literature. This is something you discussed 164 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:28,679 Speaker 1: in the book right right. 165 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 3: Well again that that largely comes from Aristotle and who 166 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 3: Marisotols when he was describing the cephalopods really grouped them 167 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 3: all under the general general heading of malachoy, which basically 168 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 3: means soft bodied creatures or as I like to think, squishy, 169 00:13:55,120 --> 00:14:00,959 Speaker 3: squishy creatures. And he didn't go into that much detail 170 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:05,440 Speaker 3: and distinguishing, as I said earlier, UH, the in store 171 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 3: from the offshore UH squids. He distinguishes squids from cuddlefishes 172 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 3: and octopuses, but even there he refers to the polypods UH. 173 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 3: And then he'll refer to the cuttle fishes, sometimes using 174 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 3: the term sepia UH and other times as polypoose and 175 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 3: other times as tooth is or other times still as 176 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 3: truth oaths UH. And as later commentators and translators UH 177 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 3: are obviously confused about exactly which creature he was referring to. 178 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 3: The confusion has us to do with octopuses, that does 179 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 3: with the two decapods, cuttle fishes and squids, And there 180 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 3: Ariostolic say that he does he does allow for a 181 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 3: certain distinction, and that is based on the quality of 182 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 3: their flesh. So tuttle fishes, which swim closer to shore, 183 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 3: he says, absorb more of the heart surface hard substances 184 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 3: of the earth, so they have a bone running through 185 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 3: their bodies, with the cuddle bone, and that he referred 186 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 3: to as the both c B I the CBA bone, 187 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 3: and then uh, the squids he then just referred to 188 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 3: as the tooth and tooth olls. And it's hard really 189 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 3: to know again what he meant by the tooth is 190 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 3: which has the ending I s, and tooth oath, which 191 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 3: has the ending O S. But it does seem that 192 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 3: that that's largely my deduction as based on lexicons and 193 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 3: uh simply the fact they gave more attention to the 194 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 3: truth is that that one tooth is refers to the insure, 195 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 3: Chris refers to the upsur. So it's really a confusion 196 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 3: of what he The confusion is partly due to his 197 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 3: his vagueness and his accounts, and to the later confusion 198 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 3: of uh uh of commentators and translators, largely again because 199 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 3: those commentators would themselves not have ventured out into the 200 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 3: sea to look at squids or for that matter, of 201 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 3: cold fishes or octopuses. But we're probably writing and nlocked libraries, 202 00:16:50,840 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 3: uh uh, copying or summarizing Aristotle's texts. So uh, that's 203 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 3: that confusion does become pretty much a quality of squid 204 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 3: or even squishy natural history for the next many years, 205 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 3: let's say, next thousand or so years. 206 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: And as as you later discussed in the book, I mean, 207 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 1: we still have what what what encountercase is where something 208 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 1: we're calling a squid is actually not technically a squid. 209 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 3: Right do you mean the coldfish. 210 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 1: Wasn't there when when you start talking about the the 211 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: vampire squid. 212 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 3: Oh yes, vampire squid, Yes, yes, of course, right, technically 213 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 3: that that is not a squid's actually more of an 214 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:50,679 Speaker 3: octopi because it doesn't it doesn't really have the same 215 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 3: layout of arms and tentacles that squids do. Uh. So, yes, 216 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 3: you're right, that's one of the strangest creatures and also 217 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 3: a creature. Was one of the most delightful names of 218 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:18,199 Speaker 3: the vampire squid from Hell. Uh. Yes, but almost certainly is, 219 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:22,120 Speaker 3: or let's say, at least possibly it's not actually a 220 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:23,399 Speaker 3: squid as a cbo. 221 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I love the illustrations we see of this particular 222 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 1: cephalod in the book, one of them I was really 223 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: taken with. I hadn't seen the seen this particular illustration before, 224 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 1: but the artist almost it seemed like they were trying 225 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: to make the squid appear like a skull. Am I 226 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 1: alone in interpreting it this way? 227 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 3: Sure? Yes, I think that's that's sortainly appropriate. That's that's 228 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 3: I believe Carl Chuns illustration. Oh no, I have it 229 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:55,120 Speaker 3: right here. It does look like a skull because it's 230 00:18:55,280 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 3: it's black, and it's in this particular station. It's upside down, 231 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 3: so it has the sort of dulish mouth. It seems 232 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 3: to be sort of a hideous grin underneath two eyes, 233 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 3: and then there's a nose socket. Right. That's sort of 234 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 3: a fanciful rendition of vampire squid. 235 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 1: Now, going back to the two ancient writings here Plenty 236 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 1: of the Elder. Of course, his accounts inevitably come up 237 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: when anytime we're discussing Western understandings of the natural world. 238 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 1: And I was really taken by a bit from Plenty 239 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:41,359 Speaker 1: that you discussed in the book. Can you explain the 240 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:46,199 Speaker 1: proposed connection between the quote lavish nature of liquid and 241 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: large marine animal sizes. 242 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 3: Well, very much an air of Aristotle describing the world 243 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 3: as he thought uh and describing the world very much 244 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 3: as Roman Uh. So when he looked out on to 245 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 3: buy the water, lakes, rivers and the sea, he saw 246 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 3: that there there there was a large form that was 247 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 3: basically being fed continually by rainfall and other forms of precipitation. 248 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 3: So that's that's the nourishments that he sees taking place. 249 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:34,400 Speaker 3: And then he draws a basic analogy between the two 250 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,400 Speaker 3: different realms of the world. On the one hand, there's 251 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 3: the terrestrial realm populated by humans and land animals, and 252 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 3: then the ocuous world UH. And she says every form 253 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:54,800 Speaker 3: of of of uh life that exists on land must 254 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 3: also have its counterpart in uh the sea uh and 255 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 3: the off realm. But because the oqueous realm is more 256 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:11,919 Speaker 3: obviously nourished by precipitation, is by precipitation, which is like 257 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 3: the ocious realm than land is like precipitation. UH. That 258 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 3: means then that the animals are nourished themselves more than 259 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 3: land animals are, so they grow to greater size it 260 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 3: is even monst sizes. And because water is more fluid. 261 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 3: They also are liable to take more varied shapes. UH 262 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 3: and Eveven diverged into a completely different animals that do 263 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 3: not exist on land. So that analogy is central to 264 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 3: Plenty's kind of thinking about natural history. And it's also 265 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 3: a clear indication that he's thinking specilatively, since of course 266 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 3: you didn't have a baptosphere UH and couldn't see below 267 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 3: the surface of the dark sea. And but it's also 268 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 3: on the basis of that that UH that later accounts 269 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 3: of thee monsters UH claimed to have some basis in 270 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 3: natural history. 271 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: In fact, I also love a bit that you from 272 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 1: Plenty that you share, because this is one of those 273 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: quotes that I guess when you're when you're looking at 274 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: things Plenty shared, I guess sometimes you know second or 275 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 1: third hand about things in the world. Sometimes they they 276 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,879 Speaker 1: may feel a bit detached from the actual reality. But 277 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:48,640 Speaker 1: this is one of those quotes that that I feel 278 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:52,479 Speaker 1: like actually just speaks across the ages and and matches 279 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 1: up with like my experience of seeing octopi in the 280 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 1: wilder or anycephalopods in an aquarium. And that is quote 281 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 1: that squids are virtually incomprehensible to those who have never 282 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,879 Speaker 1: seen one, because they continually shift their appearance by moving 283 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 1: their arms and changing colors. I don't know about you, 284 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,119 Speaker 1: but I thought that really had a real ring of 285 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 1: solid truth to it. 286 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 3: Absolutely, And as I mentioned at the very beginning, what 287 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 3: my interests in squids is just that, incomprehensibility, how can 288 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 3: there be such an animal? The simple the basic word cephalopod, 289 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,439 Speaker 3: the official term for those whole group of animals, really 290 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 3: means the head of feet, right cephalo and then pod 291 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 3: for feet. That makes no sense, and that name encapsulates 292 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 3: the oddness and strangeness, the alien quality of these creatures. 293 00:23:54,920 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 3: And they really do challenge our basic sense so what 294 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:06,479 Speaker 3: an animal should be like or act like, because indeed 295 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:11,400 Speaker 3: they do change shape continually, they change colors continually, and 296 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,959 Speaker 3: they in many ways they should not exist. Uh. There 297 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 3: are even questions that at various times in history about 298 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:23,159 Speaker 3: whether they should be categorized as animals or instead as 299 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:31,199 Speaker 3: at plants. Uh. And so they've always been a real mystery, UH, 300 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:38,360 Speaker 3: and a real challenge to our ability to create taxonomies 301 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 3: and explanations and based on categories of animals and their 302 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:48,400 Speaker 3: relations to one another, because there's always the troublic question 303 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 3: of how do we dot this head of feet in 304 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:59,199 Speaker 3: relation to ourselves? Whose backwards are we built backwards? Or 305 00:24:59,240 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 3: are they? 306 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 1: Now you mentioned the mysterious, and of course you spend 307 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 1: a lot of time in the book discussing mythologies and 308 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 1: folklore concerning various cephalopods, and of course you get into 309 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: the into the giant squid quite a bit as well. 310 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 1: So so getting more into the scientific realm here, can 311 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 1: you tell us what role Japaness Steamstrup played in bridging 312 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 1: squid myth and squid science of the nineteenth century. 313 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 3: Yes, that's that's a great question for lots of reasons. 314 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 3: Stage Shop is really the turning point from the tradition 315 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 3: of let's say, squid lore based on legends and uncertainty. 316 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 3: Uh and uh, the terminological vagueness that we were talking about, 317 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 3: to modern classifications that made possible scientific studies about squid 318 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:06,199 Speaker 3: since cephalopods. So for a number of years, especially in 319 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 3: the North Atlantic area, Uh, there had been of course, 320 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 3: there were the legends of the krake and the big 321 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 3: monsters that swallowed up ships or that people would mistake 322 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 3: as islands and land on and perform religious rituals and 323 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:32,879 Speaker 3: and then be swallowed up and dragged down to the sea. 324 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 3: And those legends were intermixed with a number of beachings 325 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 3: of giant squids uh, the archituccus ducks and other sightings 326 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 3: of squids uh, and there were recorded as historically events 327 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 3: uh really starting uh in let's say the sixteenth century 328 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 3: by who uh described uh uh uh strange creatures that 329 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 3: he referred to as monks fish are episcopal fish, and 330 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:16,880 Speaker 3: he uh illustrated his rod delay, if that is, illustrated 331 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 3: his accounts with drawings of creatures that had fins instead 332 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 3: of feet and hands. But we're wearing a monk's habit 333 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 3: or a cardinal's miter, and that those sorts of accounts 334 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 3: really very gong on uh myths and uh fabulous accounts. 335 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,880 Speaker 3: But there was still an effort to provide some kind 336 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 3: of empirical credence to uh the existence of these unbelievable monsters. 337 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 3: So as a number of sightings and beats things occurred. 338 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 3: By the middle of the nineteenth century, Staintstruck came along 339 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 3: and fortuitously no one gave him a beak from one 340 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 3: of the giant squids that had beached, and he delivered 341 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 3: a lecture in eighteen fifty four where he went through 342 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:32,359 Speaker 3: all the different accounts of sea monsters by Rondelays Uh 343 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 3: and others, and he performed a kind of literary analysis 344 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 3: of all the descriptions which had probably been gathered by 345 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 3: Rondelay and others from from fisherman's accounts who tried to 346 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 3: describe these bizarre creatures they had seen. And on the 347 00:28:54,680 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 3: same Struck then concluded that all these accounts were referred 348 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 3: to one very real creature uh. And so, after a 349 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 3: lengthy series of exegesis of these various accounts, he quite 350 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 3: dramatically presented to his audience this beak he had been given, 351 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:26,479 Speaker 3: a very imposing uh beak. A squid's beak is like 352 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 3: a hawk's beak or a parent's beak, so it's really 353 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 3: sharp and curved and midst to tear flesh. So this 354 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 3: is a good sized beak. Uh. And he with that 355 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 3: sort of dramatic flourish of showing his audience to speak, 356 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 3: he was really to to change the accounts of seafarers 357 00:29:53,720 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 3: and and let's say, the legends of monsters into a 358 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 3: verifiable uh animal that could be given a scientific name. 359 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 3: And Uh, he's the one who then gave it the 360 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 3: name Arctuthu's Ducks UH. And with that name UH, he 361 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 3: basically cleared up the ambiguity that existenence Aristotle, and he 362 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 3: UH allowed for a focused and discipline study of of 363 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 3: squids based on a real taxonomy, and a taxonomy that 364 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 3: lays out different uh genera of squids, different species of squids, 365 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 3: and is able to map their locations around the world. So, 366 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 3: in short, Saints really marks the transition from the world 367 00:30:55,200 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 3: of myth and uncertainty and ambiguity to the world of 368 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 3: modern empirical study. 369 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: Now, speaking of modern study, one of the big topics 370 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 1: that comes up in all this thing you discussed in 371 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 1: the book of course is the is the our attempts 372 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 1: to understand cephalopod intelligence. And you bring up some of 373 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 1: our responses to cephalopod intelligence and and even the idea 374 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 1: that they could be quote the primates of the sea. 375 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 1: What are what are the challenges and limits in play 376 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: when it comes to understanding the mind of the squid? 377 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 3: Well, the telegon player or or are great. Even even 378 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 3: though there is such thing as scientific study of squids, 379 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 3: and the science and squids is growing. The taxonomy of 380 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:51,959 Speaker 3: squids is expanding xconentually as more and more species in 381 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 3: general are being discovered continually. But on the other hand, 382 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 3: exactly what these creatures are still remains cheezing, because there 383 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 3: are these strange creatures whose heads consist of feet, but 384 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 3: they also have sizeable brains and they show a real intelligence. 385 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 3: The marine biologist Jeffer Mather has pointed out, I think 386 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 3: most valuable, valuably that squids exist in I'm courting her 387 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 3: hair worlds away from us. And even though she says, 388 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 3: even though their their brains may not have quite the 389 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 3: same structure as ours, they can still be seen to 390 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 3: work in analogous ways to our brains, and therefore their 391 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 3: intelligence can be seen to be somewhat analogous, albeit bizarre. 392 00:32:55,080 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 3: It's worth noting that the squid brains regulate movement through 393 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 3: visual cues. That makes their perception and their movement their 394 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 3: response to that perception almost simultaneous, in fact, so simultaneous 395 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 3: that would be virtually the same event. Whereas let's say, 396 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 3: in humans most land creatures, we perceived something and it 397 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 3: might take a second or two to to respond, UH, 398 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 3: squids perceive and respond instantaneously. UH. Scientists have focused particularly 399 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 3: on what they call it the giant axon, a very 400 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 3: large nerve fiber that radiates throughout the wall of the 401 00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 3: mantle the long tubular part of the squid. UH. This 402 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 3: this nerve is about a millimeter in diameter UH and 403 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 3: really the largest nerve of of of any any animal 404 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 3: in the world. And it's the size of the nerves 405 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:21,920 Speaker 3: that is able to enable the squid to transmit its 406 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 3: perceptions from its eyes and and other receptors around its 407 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:32,239 Speaker 3: body instantaneously into its musculature to move UH, so that 408 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 3: they can they can propel themselves by by shooting out 409 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:44,799 Speaker 3: streams of water within milliseconds of of perceiving something that 410 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 3: they want to attack. UH. And their intelligencens really is 411 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,320 Speaker 3: I think can can should be described as a movement 412 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,879 Speaker 3: on the one hand and predation on the other hand, 413 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 3: or really that's that's the same as well, because they 414 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 3: really are predators UH, and they are hyper sensitive to 415 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 3: the their environment. They have a number of organs and 416 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 3: mechanisms for perception, not just their eyes but along their 417 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:27,240 Speaker 3: their entire bodies that they have a little to perceive 418 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 3: well beyond our five sentences. They don't have hearing, almost certainly, 419 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 3: but they are able to perceive motion uh and emotions 420 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 3: and a very very fine degree. And they also then 421 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:52,799 Speaker 3: can uh famously change colors, flash colors brilliantly illuminate themselves 422 00:35:53,600 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 3: through chromatophores, which are essentially facts of pigments that cover 423 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:07,439 Speaker 3: their entire body uh and that can be contracted and 424 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 3: opened will to change the color of the skin. And 425 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:22,240 Speaker 3: as these sacs open and shut, expand and contract, they 426 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:31,319 Speaker 3: reveal some erutifores underneath. The ritifores reflect light back as 427 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 3: a kind of iridescence, but it's a different kind of light, 428 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:39,280 Speaker 3: is more of a polarized light, which we humans aren't 429 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,359 Speaker 3: really geared to perceive that we can see a kind 430 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:46,120 Speaker 3: of sheen the way you would see on a soap bubble. 431 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 3: And these changes, these chromatophors are really controlled again by 432 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 3: the squid eyes. So movement color changes are all instantaneous 433 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 3: and very much part of squid intelligence, governed by astaushing 434 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 3: powers of perception, uh very dominant and and uh impressive 435 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:20,560 Speaker 3: nervous system uh and a brain. So to think them 436 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 3: as primates of to see, they are against predators and 437 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 3: they pretty much live not at the top of the 438 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 3: food chain, because of course they're eaten by many other creatures, 439 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 3: but their intelligence and their athleticism certainly makes them formidable. 440 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:42,440 Speaker 3: Uh so uh definitely puts them at the top of 441 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 3: many people's hierarchy. 442 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,280 Speaker 1: Now, one of the one of the things you mentioned 443 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 1: here that really blew me away. You discuss handling and 444 00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:01,239 Speaker 1: messengers research into quote unquote squid talk and touch on 445 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,480 Speaker 1: their idea that that the squid in particular may engage 446 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:09,160 Speaker 1: in not only play but dishonesty and communication. What are 447 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:09,879 Speaker 1: we to make of this? 448 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:16,480 Speaker 3: Right? Right? That's that is that's a delightful discovery by 449 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:23,280 Speaker 3: the scientists. First of all, zipp Mather again has studied 450 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 3: what she refers to as squiddish uh, the language of squids. 451 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:36,600 Speaker 3: She categorized it through studying various postures and light flashes 452 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:41,040 Speaker 3: uh that squids make, so that she's able to come 453 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:48,879 Speaker 3: up with something approaching a lexicon, and for the most part, uh, 454 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:54,080 Speaker 3: scientists and and others uh looking at lexicon as as 455 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,960 Speaker 3: simply being informational the way we usually think of animal 456 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 3: communication being informational. Birds uh squawk and chirp perhaps to 457 00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:12,280 Speaker 3: say good morning, or you and I are boyfriend and girlfriend, 458 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:16,000 Speaker 3: or there's a predator close by. Or something like that. 459 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,200 Speaker 3: And if if we think of if we start to 460 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 3: think as Roger Hanlon and John Messenger suggests that perhaps 461 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:36,920 Speaker 3: squids are not simply communicating information, but they're creating misinformation disinformation. Uh. 462 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:41,239 Speaker 3: That that suggests that there's something else going on a 463 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:47,759 Speaker 3: higher level of communication. And then it suggests that there 464 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,359 Speaker 3: might even be a let's say, a performative quality too 465 00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:56,760 Speaker 3: uh squiddish uh to squid communication, which is, say, it's 466 00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:05,800 Speaker 3: it's not literal, it's not simply informational, but it's something else. 467 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:12,280 Speaker 3: And that dishonesty play the big role. And let's say 468 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:17,719 Speaker 3: literary allusions, so that very very much of literature does 469 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:24,840 Speaker 3: not simply consist of information relayed about something. It's not 470 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:33,280 Speaker 3: simply uh the empirical descriptions of Aristotle, uh, but it's suggestive, 471 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:40,239 Speaker 3: it's allusive. It relies on puns, and it can rely 472 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:49,040 Speaker 3: on jokes. Uh. So that suggestion that squids are not 473 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 3: simply let's say, unimaginative animals who are merely saying food here, uh, 474 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:07,040 Speaker 3: pred uture there, but perhaps have the capacity for joking 475 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:18,720 Speaker 3: or imagination. But then, since qu squids are undeniably major 476 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:25,520 Speaker 3: predators and even cannibals, we have to ask, uh, what 477 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:30,640 Speaker 3: are their jokes or what are they imagining? Are they 478 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:38,200 Speaker 3: making jokes about us which is discomforting, or are they 479 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:44,160 Speaker 3: making jokes with a punchline I will eat you. Or 480 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:48,160 Speaker 3: if their jokes are not found funny by other squids, 481 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:56,080 Speaker 3: will they be eaten? That's a funny room for jokes 482 00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:56,560 Speaker 3: of our own. 483 00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:02,960 Speaker 1: And also worry, that's that's amazing. Uh, Now a lot 484 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:06,719 Speaker 1: of that, I guess we're talking about information, you know, 485 00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:11,279 Speaker 1: bi cephalopods for cephalopods. But but coming back to the 486 00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:15,280 Speaker 1: topic of what cephalopods can do for us, say something 487 00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:17,520 Speaker 1: that certainly drives a lot of the research, as you 488 00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:21,920 Speaker 1: point out, what are the brightest possibilities here and and 489 00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:25,520 Speaker 1: what are the arguments for for eating cephalopods even if 490 00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,080 Speaker 1: they might be primates of the sea, Because I know 491 00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:34,200 Speaker 1: that I know people who, for instance, are pescatarians but 492 00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,880 Speaker 1: don't eat cephalopods or make a distinct choice not to 493 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:41,359 Speaker 1: eat them based on some of the intelligence research out there. 494 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:48,760 Speaker 3: Well, the argument for eating self pods is simply they're 495 00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:59,720 Speaker 3: enormous numbers. They they they swarm throughout visually all oceans, 496 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:06,320 Speaker 3: and these except for the Black Sea and and high quantities, 497 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:14,240 Speaker 3: and they are highly are the fisheries UH yeared around 498 00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:20,760 Speaker 3: squids are very successful in catching large quantities of them. 499 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:27,880 Speaker 3: And that's important in this time of industrial UH fishing, 500 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:36,000 Speaker 3: when many species of aquatic life are being simply wiped 501 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:40,160 Speaker 3: out uh through the drag netting and and other forms 502 00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:47,160 Speaker 3: of industrial fishing, so that it really has become a 503 00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:52,960 Speaker 3: mass produced kind of of food which have depleted partially everything. 504 00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:58,320 Speaker 3: Squids seems to be impervious to that, or at least 505 00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:07,440 Speaker 3: so far. And that's that's really the argument. I'm I'm 506 00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:09,360 Speaker 3: gonna hold off on on what it means to be 507 00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:14,839 Speaker 3: something of UH intelligence for just a second, because there 508 00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:21,399 Speaker 3: are other possibilities for ways humans have sought to use 509 00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:26,719 Speaker 3: to exploit UH squid. UH. One of course, is there 510 00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:32,440 Speaker 3: the giant axon. So the scientists have begun to to 511 00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:38,280 Speaker 3: harvest UH squid just for that nerve in the hopes 512 00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:48,600 Speaker 3: of using them to UH re juvenate humans who have 513 00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:56,640 Speaker 3: become paralyzed, who have lost neurological functions UH. And that's 514 00:44:56,680 --> 00:45:00,480 Speaker 3: that's a big hope for the pharmaceutical industry. Or even 515 00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:05,880 Speaker 3: suggestions that because of the squids capacity to change colors 516 00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:12,160 Speaker 3: that maybe some genius will find a way of transferring 517 00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:18,080 Speaker 3: that into use by the military industrial complex to allow 518 00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:25,239 Speaker 3: let's say, camouflage and the battlefield so that just and 519 00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:30,359 Speaker 3: UH filter k Dick's novels scanner darkly, where the UH 520 00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:34,920 Speaker 3: policemen wear these UH scanner suits that change their uh 521 00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:41,760 Speaker 3: physical configuration completely. Uh. So let's say warriors could change 522 00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:46,880 Speaker 3: themselves completely so that nobody could see it. So that 523 00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:52,480 Speaker 3: sounds pretty far fetched, but it's it's perhaps on the 524 00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:58,840 Speaker 3: at least the table as for eating them or let's say, 525 00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:04,719 Speaker 3: lloyding them in any sense for the military or for 526 00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:12,040 Speaker 3: uh medical uses. I think those arguments really wrestle during 527 00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:19,960 Speaker 3: them as resources overlooking that intelligence or best as or 528 00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:29,440 Speaker 3: at least disqualifying squid intelligence as being less than human intelligence. 529 00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:34,440 Speaker 3: It's long been our tendency to say, uh, whatever is 530 00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:39,440 Speaker 3: alien to us, whatever is different from me, Uh, it 531 00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:44,680 Speaker 3: cannot be as good as I am, and it can 532 00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:52,360 Speaker 3: even be real because it's not human. It's not really intelligence. UH. 533 00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:57,920 Speaker 3: And I might I might even mention that I submitted 534 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:01,160 Speaker 3: my books to the press. One of the editors took 535 00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:07,160 Speaker 3: a real issue with my res to squid humor. She said, 536 00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:11,239 Speaker 3: that's impossible. There's no such thing as humor in the 537 00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:17,799 Speaker 3: animal world has never been documented. Well, I don't know. 538 00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:20,879 Speaker 3: I disagree. As I said, I spent plenty of time 539 00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:24,400 Speaker 3: around forces, and I know that they can be real jokesters, 540 00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:29,080 Speaker 3: and I know dogs can be jokesers, and fox hunters 541 00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:33,000 Speaker 3: around the world will tell you about foxes playing real tricks, 542 00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:39,080 Speaker 3: and so there is such thing as humor. But it's 543 00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:43,760 Speaker 3: hard to fathom what uh, several pod humor or selphal 544 00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:49,320 Speaker 3: pod intelligence would be. But I think it's also important 545 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:54,440 Speaker 3: to recognize that. I'll just challenge your fish eating friends 546 00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:59,200 Speaker 3: further and say, well, certainly all kinds of fish, all 547 00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:05,719 Speaker 3: creatures have intelligence, and we have to ask ourselves if 548 00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:09,480 Speaker 3: it's just different from ours or if it really truly 549 00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:13,960 Speaker 3: is lesser than ours, which would justify as eating a 550 00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:16,399 Speaker 3: lesser being. I don't know. 551 00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:20,759 Speaker 1: Now, you of course get into cephalopod evolution, taking us 552 00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:24,040 Speaker 1: back five hundred to six hundred million years. But then 553 00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:27,920 Speaker 1: something special seems to have occurred during the struggle with 554 00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:33,479 Speaker 1: fish and marine reptiles. Can you describe what we think 555 00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:34,560 Speaker 1: happened here? 556 00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:42,120 Speaker 3: Well, of course it's all highly speciative, but around four 557 00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:44,360 Speaker 3: hundred and fifty million years ago. I believe this is 558 00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:49,280 Speaker 3: what you're referring to, what is always been called as 559 00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:58,799 Speaker 3: the Devonian extinsion, when pretty much all almost all life disappeared, 560 00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:08,719 Speaker 3: and slowly animals began to reappear in in various parts 561 00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:13,440 Speaker 3: of the world, but decidedly not in the deepest oceans 562 00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:21,040 Speaker 3: because oxygen levels there are are low. But stuffle pods 563 00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:28,360 Speaker 3: seem to do okay. Uh, they moved. Offshore squids in particular, 564 00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:34,200 Speaker 3: moved into the deeper water. So that uh, there we 565 00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:39,560 Speaker 3: again have look back to Aristotle's to accounts of the 566 00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:43,600 Speaker 3: inshore and the offshore squids. Uh, the offshore squids grew 567 00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:52,319 Speaker 3: bigger because squids generally lost their shells or Moluskian shells, 568 00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:59,080 Speaker 3: they were able to move faster, and they didn't have 569 00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:04,480 Speaker 3: the bones that fishes had, so that they were able 570 00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:10,160 Speaker 3: to prey upon the fish that previously preyed upon them. 571 00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:15,000 Speaker 3: Because boneless squids were able to move much faster and 572 00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:21,400 Speaker 3: react more quickly than bony fishes could. So that was 573 00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:26,560 Speaker 3: that was one of the theoretically one of the key 574 00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:33,800 Speaker 3: steps in the development of or squids to somewhat modern 575 00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:39,320 Speaker 3: squids that we see fairly recently relatively speaking. 576 00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:42,799 Speaker 1: And I've already alluded to changes going on in the 577 00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:46,600 Speaker 1: oceans today. Is there a cephalopod explosion happening in the 578 00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:50,080 Speaker 1: world today? Are we seeing changes in cephalopod populations? 579 00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:57,120 Speaker 3: Well, it certainly seems so. In many ways. Popular presses 580 00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:02,720 Speaker 3: around the world have referred to squid blooms or squid invasions, 581 00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:09,240 Speaker 3: where large populations of cephalopods show up in a particular area. 582 00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:16,239 Speaker 3: And it seems that that could be happening because of 583 00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:24,520 Speaker 3: of climate change, uh so that the occurrence are shifting. Uh. 584 00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:30,960 Speaker 3: That that's one explanation for why Humboldt squids have shown 585 00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:36,520 Speaker 3: up in large numbers in certain years around Monterey Bay, California. 586 00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:41,520 Speaker 3: Uh and have uh such large numbers that they have 587 00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:47,320 Speaker 3: washed ashore uh and and and and you know, along 588 00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:52,680 Speaker 3: by the by the millions, causing course serious tygetic issues. 589 00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:59,759 Speaker 3: And it's also possible because of which you say that 590 00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:05,560 Speaker 3: the explosion of squids is also possible because of the 591 00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:10,280 Speaker 3: depletion of other fish, of fish that might be eating 592 00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:18,920 Speaker 3: squids or competing with squids for other food. Maybe whales 593 00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:25,520 Speaker 3: uh have been uh depopulated enough to allow for explosions 594 00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:31,280 Speaker 3: of squids. But it's also possible that people are starting 595 00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:37,600 Speaker 3: to pay more attention to squids. UH. When there are 596 00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:42,920 Speaker 3: computative squid blooms somewhere, then fishing fleets will swarm to 597 00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:48,960 Speaker 3: a particular area, and I've fished that area heavily. And 598 00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:52,680 Speaker 3: since squids have a fairly short life of very short 599 00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:57,200 Speaker 3: life generally about a year, they can disappear and then 600 00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:02,879 Speaker 3: reappear again uh later on, And as they move through 601 00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:06,439 Speaker 3: the current, they can appear in a different place uh 602 00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:11,600 Speaker 3: and again in large numbers. And I just mentioned UH 603 00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:16,360 Speaker 3: squid breed insects large numbers that scientists have referred to 604 00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:20,400 Speaker 3: them as the protein pump of the sea, so that 605 00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:25,000 Speaker 3: as they uh breed in one part of the sea 606 00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:27,279 Speaker 3: and then move to another part of the sea die 607 00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:33,520 Speaker 3: and decompose, uh, they provide nutrients for other fish other 608 00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:40,840 Speaker 3: aquatic life forms, so that they they've moved around in 609 00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:45,680 Speaker 3: that way as well. So at any rate, it seems 610 00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:52,040 Speaker 3: that squids are highly adaptable. It's as climate change happens, squids, 611 00:53:52,239 --> 00:54:01,799 Speaker 3: more than bony fish and other aquatic creatures, are very 612 00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:06,799 Speaker 3: willing to change. They're very willing to move into areas 613 00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:12,799 Speaker 3: that had previously been thought to be incompatible with squids 614 00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:19,120 Speaker 3: or cephalopods or really any form of life. And I 615 00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:22,120 Speaker 3: think that the bottom line there is we see that 616 00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:24,160 Speaker 3: almost certainly squids will endure. 617 00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:33,040 Speaker 1: Now, obviously I love the section in the book on 618 00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:37,920 Speaker 1: folkloric squids and how interconnected the folklore is with our 619 00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:41,480 Speaker 1: just basic understanding of the various species, and I think 620 00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:44,319 Speaker 1: our listeners will particularly enjoy this section of the book 621 00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:46,680 Speaker 1: as well. And I can't possibly ask you about all 622 00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:49,160 Speaker 1: of it, but one example I wanted to bring up. 623 00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:52,959 Speaker 1: It was the idea you share of the Norse sea reek, 624 00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:56,320 Speaker 1: and the idea that the sea reek might be linked 625 00:54:56,480 --> 00:54:59,960 Speaker 1: to ammonia in the giant squid body. Can you describe? 626 00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:06,960 Speaker 3: That's a slight connection that I hope I'm not making 627 00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:10,799 Speaker 3: too much of, But it is the case that the 628 00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:16,040 Speaker 3: giant squid archituc of ducks made famous by stains rope 629 00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:26,680 Speaker 3: and others. But this is ammonia chloride and it's in 630 00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:29,799 Speaker 3: it's flesh. Uh. And the reason for that is that 631 00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:34,800 Speaker 3: these are animals that live very deep in the ocean, 632 00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:40,920 Speaker 3: and the ammonia chloride provides buoyancy so that they don't 633 00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:45,120 Speaker 3: float to the surface where they wouldn't want to be 634 00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:50,160 Speaker 3: because they beaten by birds or whatever, and also prevents 635 00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:54,000 Speaker 3: them from sinking down to the bottom. All squids have 636 00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:59,399 Speaker 3: ammonia chloride, just a giant squid and and a few 637 00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:06,360 Speaker 3: other species and general. But in much of the folklore 638 00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:13,000 Speaker 3: of squid uh, folklore extending up into the novels of 639 00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:19,359 Speaker 3: the modern era, UH, the reek of ammonia is very 640 00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:26,360 Speaker 3: much an aspect of an encounter worth a kraken or 641 00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:31,680 Speaker 3: half a goufa or one of these monsters of the 642 00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:37,799 Speaker 3: seas that would supposedly UH wrapped their arms around the 643 00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:41,880 Speaker 3: entire ship and dragon to the to the bottom of 644 00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:47,840 Speaker 3: the ocean. So I think that the sea reek and 645 00:56:48,239 --> 00:56:55,120 Speaker 3: is a possible literal account of UH, this this feared, 646 00:56:56,440 --> 00:57:03,960 Speaker 3: mythic and yet real monster that everyone dreaded and always 647 00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:09,239 Speaker 3: left kind of of tell tale odor and it's wake. 648 00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:12,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. Throughout this section, I was just you know, trying 649 00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:15,520 Speaker 1: to you know, to put myself in the mindset, possible 650 00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:19,720 Speaker 1: mindset of of say, you know, a Norse seaman, uh, 651 00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:23,320 Speaker 1: you know, witnessing this and smelling these creatures you know, 652 00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:28,320 Speaker 1: and encountering you know, firsthand and then secondhand knowledge of them. 653 00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:31,520 Speaker 1: It's really remarkable, well. 654 00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:37,919 Speaker 3: And frightening yes, of course, mean the city is frightening enough. 655 00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:42,040 Speaker 3: Since we all know that humans aren't meant to be 656 00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:44,080 Speaker 3: able to see in a natural sense, we can to 657 00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:47,800 Speaker 3: sink uh, and we else know that way down deep 658 00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:50,920 Speaker 3: there are monsters like the vampire squids from Hell and 659 00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:55,600 Speaker 3: giant squids Googled attack our ships. 660 00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:58,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I love how this is a recurring theme 661 00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:00,560 Speaker 1: in the book, talking about our relationship with to see 662 00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:04,800 Speaker 1: our relationship then with squid and the idea of the squid, 663 00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:08,680 Speaker 1: and of course that leads us to the squid gods. 664 00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:11,280 Speaker 1: So when when, even when I say squid gods, I 665 00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:14,280 Speaker 1: know many listeners are probably thinking of a certain fictional 666 00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:17,120 Speaker 1: deity that we'll mention in a moment here. But there 667 00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:20,240 Speaker 1: is a squid deity in Polynesian traditions. 668 00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:29,400 Speaker 3: Right well. I hesitate to speak authoritatively about another culture, 669 00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:38,000 Speaker 3: but Polynesian culture is very close to the ocean. And 670 00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:43,600 Speaker 3: from what I was able to understand from my own 671 00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:52,800 Speaker 3: very amateurish investigations, is that there are prayers to Analola 672 00:58:53,840 --> 00:59:00,320 Speaker 3: who described as God of the squid. Does not theme 673 00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:04,600 Speaker 3: that that god is actually a squid, but is perhaps 674 00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:09,960 Speaker 3: represented by a squid uh, since it would be inappropriate 675 00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:16,640 Speaker 3: to say uh the god's name directly literally uh. But 676 00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:20,600 Speaker 3: it is the case that also that as in many 677 00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:30,640 Speaker 3: UH cultures, there are certain beings that serve as family 678 00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:37,840 Speaker 3: guardians uh, which can ward off threats and bring good 679 00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:42,360 Speaker 3: fortune uh to a particular family. These these, of course, 680 00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:46,640 Speaker 3: these guardians uh would be revered. Among those would be 681 00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:51,880 Speaker 3: uh the squid. And in that regard, one of my 682 00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:59,920 Speaker 3: happiest discoveries when I was researching for the book uh well, 683 01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:07,960 Speaker 3: the modern New Zealand poet Darren Kamali, who invokes ancient 684 01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:13,840 Speaker 3: Polynesian traditions in his poetry, he he called upon uh 685 01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:22,840 Speaker 3: guardian squids to rejuvenate his culture uh that has been 686 01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:31,120 Speaker 3: subsumed by the Western views by commercial exploitation of non 687 01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:39,120 Speaker 3: human life. And so his his songs about uh squids, 688 01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:45,720 Speaker 3: about a squid becoming a man whose tentacles uh then 689 01:00:45,880 --> 01:00:52,480 Speaker 3: become dreadlocks. Uh who then chants these these rejuvenating songs, 690 01:00:54,040 --> 01:00:59,440 Speaker 3: they become chants calling up this this, this ancient UH life, 691 01:00:59,560 --> 01:01:08,680 Speaker 3: this ancient uh familiarity. UH. And let's say companionship or 692 01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:13,520 Speaker 3: guardianship among animals, or let's just put this way, an 693 01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:20,040 Speaker 3: ancient community among humans and other creatures that perhaps can 694 01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:29,760 Speaker 3: rectify some of the ills caused by Western exploitation and 695 01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:38,280 Speaker 3: Western views that that squid intelligence cannot be compared to 696 01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:42,600 Speaker 3: human intelligence. That has to be less than intelligence to 697 01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:46,360 Speaker 3: enable us uh to exploit them just for their nerve 698 01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:49,200 Speaker 3: fibers or for their flesh. 699 01:01:49,240 --> 01:01:51,600 Speaker 1: Wow, I feel like that that would that would almost 700 01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:55,120 Speaker 1: be a fitting into the interview right there. But but 701 01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:57,800 Speaker 1: I have to of course ask you about about the 702 01:01:57,920 --> 01:02:02,440 Speaker 1: squid in literature and particular and some of the weirder 703 01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:07,080 Speaker 1: weird fiction of the twentieth and the twenty first century. 704 01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:09,360 Speaker 1: And again there's a lot in the book. I'm not 705 01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:11,720 Speaker 1: going to ask you about everything. I encourage our listeners 706 01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:14,040 Speaker 1: to pick up a copy and dive in themselves. But 707 01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:16,920 Speaker 1: one of the big ones you of course discuss is 708 01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:20,400 Speaker 1: Jules Verne's treatment of the Giant Squid and twenty thousand 709 01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:24,400 Speaker 1: Leagues under the Sea. How essential is this novel to 710 01:02:24,520 --> 01:02:26,680 Speaker 1: pop culture visions of the giant squid? 711 01:02:27,160 --> 01:02:33,520 Speaker 3: Oh well, it's enormously important. In any ways, Vern does 712 01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:38,600 Speaker 3: just the reverse of what Stains Group did, so that 713 01:02:39,560 --> 01:02:44,160 Speaker 3: in the narrative, the main character, Professor Aronnax, who is 714 01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:48,920 Speaker 3: a natural historian, gives an account of the giant squids 715 01:02:48,920 --> 01:02:55,520 Speaker 3: that she sees from inside the submarine that's led by 716 01:02:56,480 --> 01:03:02,360 Speaker 3: the evil cap and Nemo, and he gives aaron axis descriptions, 717 01:03:03,120 --> 01:03:11,120 Speaker 3: very accurate, empirical, uh, dispassionate description. But then almost immediately 718 01:03:11,560 --> 01:03:18,360 Speaker 3: that scene turns into uh a very exciting dramatic account 719 01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:23,560 Speaker 3: where the squids are attacking the novelists and uh they 720 01:03:23,600 --> 01:03:31,360 Speaker 3: become the repellent embodiments of the old myths and who 721 01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:37,280 Speaker 3: who are trying to pull on Aeronax's companion, the harpoonist 722 01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:41,400 Speaker 3: ned Land from the from the strip until Captain Nemo 723 01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:47,160 Speaker 3: hacks off the tentacle of the squid and so on. Uh, 724 01:03:47,360 --> 01:03:52,040 Speaker 3: ned Land is almost chopped into by the the beak, 725 01:03:52,160 --> 01:03:57,000 Speaker 3: the giant beak of the monsters squid. So really, what 726 01:03:57,320 --> 01:04:02,800 Speaker 3: Verne is able to accomplish there is making something seem 727 01:04:03,080 --> 01:04:10,280 Speaker 3: something that seems scientific uh into a uh a rejuvenation 728 01:04:10,840 --> 01:04:17,240 Speaker 3: of the old myths of the kraaken of the sea monsters. Uh. 729 01:04:17,560 --> 01:04:23,479 Speaker 3: So we end up with a decidedly modern empirical kind 730 01:04:23,560 --> 01:04:28,960 Speaker 3: of dread, a modern kind of anxiety. Uh. That so 731 01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:31,920 Speaker 3: that we can name what these creatures are uh and 732 01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:36,080 Speaker 3: still feel uh that that oh, yike, if I've been 733 01:04:36,160 --> 01:04:39,280 Speaker 3: throught into the sea, they'll definitely wrap hold of me 734 01:04:39,360 --> 01:04:43,680 Speaker 3: and chop me in half with their tyant beak. So 735 01:04:43,720 --> 01:04:47,560 Speaker 3: that that really laid the groad work. As as you 736 01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:52,480 Speaker 3: yourself said, for much of the later kinds of stories, 737 01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:58,920 Speaker 3: uh that uh described space aliens coming to the world 738 01:04:59,040 --> 01:05:03,360 Speaker 3: and destroying the world, and of course those aliens all 739 01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:04,920 Speaker 3: are squits. 740 01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:10,440 Speaker 1: Yeah that you of course you bring up HP Lovecraft's 741 01:05:10,680 --> 01:05:13,760 Speaker 1: Cthulhu and The Call of Cthulhu, which I think most 742 01:05:13,760 --> 01:05:16,040 Speaker 1: of our listeners are probably familiar with. But then you 743 01:05:16,120 --> 01:05:19,800 Speaker 1: also touched on a work by William Hope Hodgson, The 744 01:05:19,800 --> 01:05:24,120 Speaker 1: Boats of Glenn Carrigg. And I've read Hodgson's The Night Land, 745 01:05:24,480 --> 01:05:26,160 Speaker 1: but I wasn't familiar with this one. Can you tell 746 01:05:26,240 --> 01:05:28,360 Speaker 1: us a little about it? And it's rolled in squid 747 01:05:28,360 --> 01:05:29,400 Speaker 1: related weird fiction. 748 01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:31,800 Speaker 3: First of all, I really have to give a shout 749 01:05:31,880 --> 01:05:37,200 Speaker 3: out to my great friend Tim Murphy, who is not 750 01:05:37,320 --> 01:05:41,400 Speaker 3: only a lover of squid Affect almost as much as 751 01:05:41,440 --> 01:05:46,200 Speaker 3: I am, but also an expert on Hodgson's book and 752 01:05:46,560 --> 01:05:52,160 Speaker 3: weird fiction fiction generally, and he's he's just finishing a 753 01:05:52,200 --> 01:05:57,720 Speaker 3: book on Hodgson and in short, the story of the 754 01:05:57,720 --> 01:06:04,080 Speaker 3: books of Glenn Carrig uh from the the voice of 755 01:06:04,520 --> 01:06:09,280 Speaker 3: John Winterstraw, who's the narrator, who's basically telling a kind 756 01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:17,480 Speaker 3: of sailor's story of having once uh encounters strange monsters 757 01:06:17,600 --> 01:06:24,480 Speaker 3: at sea. Basically, what happens in in his strange his 758 01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:29,520 Speaker 3: sailor's story is that his ship, the the Glenn Carrick, 759 01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:34,520 Speaker 3: gets caught in a big field of seaweed, let's say, 760 01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:38,120 Speaker 3: probably something like the Sargasso Sea. And it's worth noting 761 01:06:38,520 --> 01:06:42,840 Speaker 3: parenthetically that Hodgson uh did spend quite a bit of 762 01:06:42,880 --> 01:06:46,960 Speaker 3: time in the merchant marine, so he was familiar with ships. 763 01:06:47,560 --> 01:06:53,560 Speaker 3: He was worried, familiar with ship war uh, and with 764 01:06:54,160 --> 01:06:58,680 Speaker 3: these kinds of tales uh that sailors tell them one another. 765 01:06:59,520 --> 01:07:05,160 Speaker 3: But you know, also was interested in that category of 766 01:07:05,480 --> 01:07:11,880 Speaker 3: of fiction. Uh, it's called weird weird fiction. So while 767 01:07:12,400 --> 01:07:16,680 Speaker 3: the game Carrig is caught in uh this Sargasso Sea 768 01:07:16,840 --> 01:07:23,360 Speaker 3: or just a field of seaweed, the sailors begin to 769 01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:28,640 Speaker 3: to spread because they encounter other ships that have been 770 01:07:28,680 --> 01:07:32,920 Speaker 3: trapped obviously trapped there so long they've just become skeleton 771 01:07:33,040 --> 01:07:38,920 Speaker 3: ships uh, until finally they drift towards of what seems 772 01:07:38,920 --> 01:07:45,160 Speaker 3: to be an island uh, and they try to set 773 01:07:45,280 --> 01:07:52,040 Speaker 3: up a residence on the island. And then UH Winterstrong 774 01:07:53,120 --> 01:07:57,000 Speaker 3: notices a few times he looks over the side of 775 01:07:57,000 --> 01:08:02,000 Speaker 3: a boat. And the title of the h of novel 776 01:08:02,080 --> 01:08:06,600 Speaker 3: comes from the fact that the sailors escape from the 777 01:08:06,640 --> 01:08:10,520 Speaker 3: ship from the Glynn Carrick and the ship's boats which 778 01:08:10,760 --> 01:08:13,880 Speaker 3: they rowed towards the island. Uh. So while he's in 779 01:08:13,920 --> 01:08:18,240 Speaker 3: one of these boats, Winterstral looks over the side and 780 01:08:18,520 --> 01:08:24,160 Speaker 3: he sees a white human like face staring back up 781 01:08:24,200 --> 01:08:29,559 Speaker 3: at him. The horse scares the Bejesus out of him. Uh. 782 01:08:29,680 --> 01:08:34,160 Speaker 3: And then once they get on the island, the sailors 783 01:08:34,200 --> 01:08:38,000 Speaker 3: begin to encounter other beings. Uh. There seems to be 784 01:08:38,280 --> 01:08:44,720 Speaker 3: encampments of squid like characters. It seems that perhaps these 785 01:08:44,760 --> 01:08:52,040 Speaker 3: squid monsters are traveling underneath the island and and subterranean 786 01:08:52,200 --> 01:08:58,400 Speaker 3: caverns and showing up on land uh and attacking uh 787 01:08:58,920 --> 01:09:05,240 Speaker 3: the fortified of the sailors UH. And the the attacks 788 01:09:05,240 --> 01:09:11,920 Speaker 3: happened uh nightly over a span of time, UH, even 789 01:09:11,960 --> 01:09:16,920 Speaker 3: to the point that that the sailors become exhausted UH, 790 01:09:17,080 --> 01:09:20,959 Speaker 3: and they said look out, hoping to war off more attacks. 791 01:09:21,360 --> 01:09:25,400 Speaker 3: Winterslaw at numerous points looks out to sea and he 792 01:09:25,439 --> 01:09:31,720 Speaker 3: can see the squid monsters swarming into the island and 793 01:09:32,640 --> 01:09:37,639 Speaker 3: what he describes as discipline formations. So it's the squid 794 01:09:37,880 --> 01:09:44,760 Speaker 3: army coming to attack the marooned sailors, uh, and the 795 01:09:45,160 --> 01:09:48,360 Speaker 3: disturbing policy there, and they're really intriguing polity. And I 796 01:09:48,720 --> 01:09:53,080 Speaker 3: think this is what Hodgson, what makes Hodgson such an 797 01:09:53,200 --> 01:09:59,360 Speaker 3: interesting writer and much of his work, UH, is that 798 01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:06,120 Speaker 3: he we really probes the question of alien intelligence. What 799 01:10:07,439 --> 01:10:08,679 Speaker 3: a lot of what you and I have been talking 800 01:10:08,680 --> 01:10:13,360 Speaker 3: about in the past few minutes in this regard, we 801 01:10:13,400 --> 01:10:17,200 Speaker 3: could even think back, perhaps to the squid jokes that 802 01:10:17,360 --> 01:10:22,640 Speaker 3: might not be funny to us, because these disciplined military 803 01:10:22,760 --> 01:10:29,280 Speaker 3: formations of squids what seemed to demonstrate a high intelligence, 804 01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:35,400 Speaker 3: a very sophisticated intelligence, and an intelligence that's directed at 805 01:10:35,520 --> 01:10:41,360 Speaker 3: us humans in a way that is about as discomforting 806 01:10:41,640 --> 01:10:46,240 Speaker 3: as I think is possible, and that is thinking of 807 01:10:46,320 --> 01:10:52,240 Speaker 3: us humans as the resources for the squid economy. So 808 01:10:52,520 --> 01:10:58,120 Speaker 3: the question would be what use would humans be to 809 01:10:58,720 --> 01:11:07,760 Speaker 3: a squid civilization? How can humans be exploited by squid intelligence? 810 01:11:09,280 --> 01:11:15,120 Speaker 3: And that really goes against everything that we want to 811 01:11:15,160 --> 01:11:21,519 Speaker 3: say about ourselves and relation to our fellow creatures, and 812 01:11:21,680 --> 01:11:27,520 Speaker 3: about our view of ourselves as the only dominant intelligent 813 01:11:28,520 --> 01:11:32,840 Speaker 3: force on the planet. And I think it's it's as 814 01:11:32,920 --> 01:11:37,000 Speaker 3: much Tim Murphy suggests and throughout his discussion of weird fiction, 815 01:11:38,360 --> 01:11:42,280 Speaker 3: since weird fiction is pretty far removed from le say, 816 01:11:42,439 --> 01:11:48,679 Speaker 3: mainstream fiction, that's the kind of question that weird fiction 817 01:11:48,920 --> 01:11:55,320 Speaker 3: can ask that other forms of literary inquiry, or other 818 01:11:56,360 --> 01:12:03,559 Speaker 3: forms of scientific or just oracle inquiry really cannot venture into. 819 01:12:04,320 --> 01:12:09,000 Speaker 3: And that's I think the value of weird fiction and 820 01:12:09,880 --> 01:12:15,240 Speaker 3: the value of learning how to read the myths and 821 01:12:15,360 --> 01:12:23,160 Speaker 3: legends of ancient times and the theological accounts of other 822 01:12:23,280 --> 01:12:28,320 Speaker 3: cultures in a less skeptical way, perhaps in a more 823 01:12:29,240 --> 01:12:34,439 Speaker 3: open minded sense of seeing that maybe we're not the 824 01:12:34,479 --> 01:12:39,400 Speaker 3: only intelligence and maybe there are other ways of engaging 825 01:12:39,520 --> 01:12:41,320 Speaker 3: intelligently with the world. 826 01:12:41,840 --> 01:12:45,840 Speaker 1: Excellent. Well, you know, finally, one last question here after 827 01:12:45,880 --> 01:12:48,040 Speaker 1: reading the book, I have a couple of guesses about 828 01:12:48,080 --> 01:12:50,160 Speaker 1: what your answer might be. But do you have a 829 01:12:50,160 --> 01:12:51,320 Speaker 1: favorite squid species? 830 01:12:52,680 --> 01:12:56,679 Speaker 3: Oh? Absolutely, I don't even have to hesitate. My favorite 831 01:12:57,160 --> 01:13:02,200 Speaker 3: squid is a little apart from the traditional favorite squid. 832 01:13:02,840 --> 01:13:07,280 Speaker 3: The favorite squid. I think it generally is the giant 833 01:13:07,320 --> 01:13:10,960 Speaker 3: squid because of all the lore uh that's growing up 834 01:13:11,000 --> 01:13:16,640 Speaker 3: around the millennia. But I really became fascinated by the 835 01:13:16,720 --> 01:13:25,000 Speaker 3: Humboldt squid, the the Cica gigas right, which is about 836 01:13:25,080 --> 01:13:28,519 Speaker 3: five feet long. It's also referred to as the red 837 01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:33,639 Speaker 3: devil because it has plenty of lore of its own. 838 01:13:35,040 --> 01:13:38,160 Speaker 3: So that we hear over and over again that sailors 839 01:13:38,240 --> 01:13:41,559 Speaker 3: fall from the boats they're fishing boats, and they're immediately 840 01:13:41,840 --> 01:13:47,040 Speaker 3: devoured by swarms of of Humboldt squids who chump them 841 01:13:47,080 --> 01:13:47,599 Speaker 3: to pieces. 842 01:13:48,640 --> 01:13:49,439 Speaker 1: And uh. 843 01:13:49,600 --> 01:13:54,439 Speaker 3: There there are videos on YouTube of of underwater cameramen 844 01:13:54,960 --> 01:13:59,240 Speaker 3: being attacked by uh one of these five foot long 845 01:13:59,800 --> 01:14:03,759 Speaker 3: UH squids coming after him and ripping his oxygen hose 846 01:14:03,840 --> 01:14:07,600 Speaker 3: and and so on. And of course, these these are 847 01:14:07,640 --> 01:14:13,200 Speaker 3: the squids that defy explanation and their ability to to 848 01:14:13,640 --> 01:14:18,960 Speaker 3: pass through areas of the ocean where there's there is 849 01:14:19,080 --> 01:14:22,640 Speaker 3: no oxygen uh and and where they're not supposed to 850 01:14:22,880 --> 01:14:27,639 Speaker 3: be able to go, and yet they do. And they're 851 01:14:27,640 --> 01:14:32,800 Speaker 3: also hunted in large numbers for their uh giant axons 852 01:14:33,040 --> 01:14:38,000 Speaker 3: uh and and their flesh and their fears and and 853 01:14:38,160 --> 01:14:44,120 Speaker 3: I think because of their adaptability, uh, their voraciousness. And 854 01:14:44,640 --> 01:14:51,559 Speaker 3: I'll just add this one detail. There's one weird, weird 855 01:14:51,800 --> 01:14:57,040 Speaker 3: lead the delightful video of some scientists putting a camera 856 01:14:57,720 --> 01:15:01,160 Speaker 3: on a humble squid to see see how it interacts 857 01:15:01,600 --> 01:15:06,160 Speaker 3: with other humbold squids or what it does weigh down 858 01:15:06,280 --> 01:15:10,639 Speaker 3: and the ocean depth. But the video will only lasts 859 01:15:10,640 --> 01:15:13,360 Speaker 3: a few seconds because you can tell the squid is 860 01:15:13,439 --> 01:15:18,320 Speaker 3: descending and then immediately another squid approaches in Egypt, so 861 01:15:19,000 --> 01:15:24,599 Speaker 3: the free just goes blank. So that that aggression, even 862 01:15:24,800 --> 01:15:34,559 Speaker 3: to cannibalism of one's schoolmates, of maybe one even one's family, 863 01:15:34,880 --> 01:15:40,680 Speaker 3: that's consumable. All that is alien and it's right to 864 01:15:40,720 --> 01:15:43,400 Speaker 3: the heart of why I wanted to write the book. 865 01:15:43,960 --> 01:15:45,960 Speaker 1: Excellent. Well again for everyone out there that the book 866 01:15:46,040 --> 01:15:49,000 Speaker 1: is Squid. It is part of Reactions Animal series. It's 867 01:15:49,040 --> 01:15:53,000 Speaker 1: available in physical and digital formats. And now that I 868 01:15:53,080 --> 01:15:54,680 Speaker 1: know that you also have one on the Fox, I'm 869 01:15:54,680 --> 01:15:57,559 Speaker 1: gonna have to pick that up as well. I'm instantly 870 01:15:57,640 --> 01:16:01,160 Speaker 1: thinking of all the various folkloresounding the fox and the 871 01:16:01,400 --> 01:16:02,280 Speaker 1: secretive nature. 872 01:16:02,640 --> 01:16:05,519 Speaker 3: Oh great, great, just just put a plug out. Let 873 01:16:05,560 --> 01:16:10,240 Speaker 3: me say that. Uh, there are hundreds different Animals Covered 874 01:16:10,439 --> 01:16:17,560 Speaker 3: and Reactions series, and really all those books have a 875 01:16:17,680 --> 01:16:23,400 Speaker 3: great deal to offer. They all all the different authors 876 01:16:24,280 --> 01:16:29,240 Speaker 3: have their own approaches to particular animals. Not everyone as 877 01:16:29,560 --> 01:16:35,240 Speaker 3: training in literature as I am. They're scientists, sociologists, historians, journalists, 878 01:16:36,200 --> 01:16:41,360 Speaker 3: you name it. Uh, so many people have been intrigued 879 01:16:41,479 --> 01:16:47,640 Speaker 3: by how to how to talk about an animals and 880 01:16:47,840 --> 01:16:52,320 Speaker 3: what it means to try to understand, uh, the relevance 881 01:16:52,560 --> 01:16:56,519 Speaker 3: of one animal to human life and culture. 882 01:16:56,880 --> 01:16:58,959 Speaker 1: Thanks allent well, thanks for being on the show, Martin. 883 01:16:58,960 --> 01:17:01,280 Speaker 3: Sure Rob, thank you for inviting me. I really appreciate it. 884 01:17:03,160 --> 01:17:06,000 Speaker 1: All right. Thanks again to Martin Wallin for taking time 885 01:17:06,040 --> 01:17:08,160 Speaker 1: out of his day to chat with me again. The 886 01:17:08,240 --> 01:17:10,960 Speaker 1: book is Squid from twenty twenty one, part of the 887 01:17:11,040 --> 01:17:14,719 Speaker 1: Reaction Animal series, which also includes Wallin's book on the Fox. 888 01:17:15,560 --> 01:17:19,120 Speaker 1: Walin's other works include Whose Dog Are You? The Technology 889 01:17:19,160 --> 01:17:22,519 Speaker 1: of Dog Breeds and The Aesthetics of Modern Human Canine 890 01:17:22,560 --> 01:17:27,200 Speaker 1: Relations and A City of Health, Fields of Disease, Revolutions 891 01:17:27,400 --> 01:17:32,320 Speaker 1: in the Poetry, Medicine and Philosophy of Romanticism. As always, 892 01:17:32,360 --> 01:17:34,240 Speaker 1: if you want to listen to other episodes of Stuff 893 01:17:34,280 --> 01:17:35,920 Speaker 1: to Blow your mind, you can find them in the 894 01:17:35,960 --> 01:17:38,160 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind podcast feed, which you'll get 895 01:17:38,200 --> 01:17:42,240 Speaker 1: wherever you find your podcast. Core science and culture episodes 896 01:17:42,280 --> 01:17:46,559 Speaker 1: published on Tuesdays and Thursdays, listener mail on Monday's short 897 01:17:46,640 --> 01:17:49,839 Speaker 1: form Artifact or Monster Fact on Wednesdays, and on Friday, 898 01:17:50,120 --> 01:17:53,000 Speaker 1: we set aside most serious concerns and just talk about 899 01:17:53,000 --> 01:17:56,800 Speaker 1: a weird film on Weird House Cinema. If you'd like 900 01:17:56,840 --> 01:17:59,240 Speaker 1: to reach out to me or Joe or any of 901 01:17:59,360 --> 01:18:02,120 Speaker 1: us here at the show, simply drop us an email 902 01:18:02,600 --> 01:18:05,880 Speaker 1: at contact at stuff to blow your Mind dot com. 903 01:18:13,600 --> 01:18:16,120 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. 904 01:18:16,479 --> 01:18:20,440 Speaker 3: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 905 01:18:20,560 --> 01:18:22,320 Speaker 3: or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows,