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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group, or if you've had

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Speaker 1: an experience with manipulation or abuse of power you'd like

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Speaker 1: to share, leave us a message on our hotline number

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Speaker 1: at five one three nine hundred two nine five five, or.

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Speaker 2: She had us an email at trust Me pod at

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Speaker 2: gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust Me, trust Me.

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Speaker 4: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 3: I've never lived to you, and we never have a live.

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Speaker 1: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 1: don't Welcome to trust Me. The podcast about cult, extreme

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Speaker 1: belief and the abuse of power from two rockstars we've

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Speaker 1: actually experienced it. I am Lowellblanc and.

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Speaker 2: I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 5: If only we were real rock stars today.

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Speaker 1: Our guest is Michel Jolt, singer of The Airborne Toxic

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Speaker 1: Event and author of New York Times best selling memoir

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Speaker 1: Hollywood Park. Mcal is going to tell us about living

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Speaker 1: in the drug rehab cult Synanon as a child in

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Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies. We'll talk about how the cult was

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Speaker 1: highly regarded in its early days, but how it also

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Speaker 1: separated families, had a dangerous level of control over its followers' lives,

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Speaker 1: and escalated into my over time, one incident of which

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Speaker 1: he witnessed.

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Speaker 2: We'll also get into how his mom came and took

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Speaker 2: him away from the call out of the blue, how

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Speaker 2: she was basically a stranger since he'd been living in

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Speaker 2: the cult's orphanage, and what it was like being dirt

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Speaker 2: poor after they got out, plus addiction, how is narcissistic

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Speaker 2: a millial relationship has impacted his adult relationships and the

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Speaker 2: moment he knew he needed to change.

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Speaker 5: This episode is so good.

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Speaker 1: You guys, you're gonna hear me fangirling out a little

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Speaker 1: bit and that's fine.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: No, you're in the cult of his Twitter. You love

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Speaker 2: him on twit.

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Speaker 5: I've looked at my retweets over the years.

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Speaker 1: It's a lot of political retweets, and it's like he

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Speaker 1: just like continuously pops up.

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Speaker 5: Though it's been a while, it's been a while.

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Speaker 1: Trigger warning, guys, there are some descriptions of violence in

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Speaker 1: this episode and.

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Speaker 5: Also just a lot of sad kids stuff, so so

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Speaker 5: be prepared for that.

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Speaker 1: And before we dive in to this wonderful conversation, Megan,

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Speaker 1: can you tell me what your cultiest thing is?

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Speaker 2: This week?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 2: I sure can well? Number one. I love this episode

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Speaker 2: and it brought up something interesting for me. It's a

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Speaker 2: little delicate, so I'm just gonna try to really choose

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Speaker 2: my words carefully. But if I offend you, feel free

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Speaker 2: to just send me a mean email or something, any

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Speaker 2: listeners and tell me how I'm wrong, because I'm open

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Speaker 2: to being wrong. Basically, Mikeel's book deals a lot with

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Speaker 2: people who are getting sober, and I have also gone

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Speaker 2: through that journey of getting sober, and I think I

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Speaker 2: bring it up a little bit in the episode of

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Speaker 2: Just my Own Hindrances with a program that helped me

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Speaker 2: get sober and definitely changed my life, saved my life,

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Speaker 2: but has cultish tendencies, and I don't know where to

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Speaker 2: land with that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think the fact that it

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Speaker 1: saved your life speaks volumes. That's like no small thing. No,

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Speaker 1: that's true of many people I know, my brother included.

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Speaker 1: My brother is an addict. I don't know if I've

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Speaker 1: ever talked about him on here, but he's been addicted

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Speaker 1: to everything and just gone to the absolute, absolute depths

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Speaker 1: of the things, of the places that you can go

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Speaker 1: with an addiction. And I think that two things can

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Speaker 1: be true at the same time, which is that it

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Speaker 1: can be so helpful and it can save lives and

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Speaker 1: it can be wonderful, and then some people take it

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Speaker 1: a little too seriously and you know, use the jargon

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Speaker 1: too much, and yeah, maybe get a little bit too

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Speaker 1: stringent with some of the My personal a personal disagreement

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Speaker 1: that I will have is the policy that you can't

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Speaker 1: do any drugs, including mushrooms.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that one gets to me a little bit. I

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Speaker 2: guess I kind of understand that maybe there's some people

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Speaker 2: who really can't do that, otherwise they'll spiral back down

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Speaker 2: and then it's like maybe the strongest have to support

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Speaker 2: the weakest, and you're all in it together and all

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Speaker 2: of that. But that is one really big part of

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Speaker 2: my life.

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Speaker 5: So like like psychedelics, Yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Mean I believe that they are one of the ways

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Speaker 2: that I've also healed. So it's right complicated, and I

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Speaker 2: would never want to discourage anyone from going. So I

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Speaker 2: did say something that was to the effect of, like,

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Speaker 2: it's kind of culty, and I just didn't want anyone

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Speaker 2: to not go if they need it. I think I

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Speaker 2: think it's a great place to be with just a

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Speaker 2: little bit of exactly what you said, like, this isn't

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Speaker 2: fully overtaking my brain. I still have yeah, other friends

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Speaker 2: and other interests.

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Speaker 1: Ultimately, and I think we've said this before, but the

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Speaker 1: reason that I think it's ultimately pretty much benign is

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Speaker 1: because there isn't any central leadership.

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Speaker 5: Exactly, and if there were, if there was.

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Speaker 1: Like one person leading every meeting, like then that could

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Speaker 1: become potentially problematic. But like because there isn't really control

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Speaker 1: over people's lives exactly, and it's that it's like, well,

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Speaker 1: this isn't that positive thing if it can help people

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Speaker 1: to you know, not die.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's just if you're prone to superstition,

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Speaker 2: which I am, it gets very complicated when it's like

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Speaker 2: you have to do these thirteen things a day or

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Speaker 2: you're not gonna get your recovery or your dreams to

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Speaker 2: come to or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Do you find a connection between that kind of thing

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Speaker 1: and like your OCD stuff, absolutely, like you feel like

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Speaker 1: you have to do all of this does exactly the

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Speaker 1: right way, and.

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Speaker 2: It's so it's it completely triggers that part of my

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Speaker 2: OCD and that part of my personality that wants to

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Speaker 2: do everything right and wants to and then starts feeling

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Speaker 2: so overwhelmed by it. I'm like, fuck it, I can't

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Speaker 2: do this. So, yeah, it's just a layered, layered conversation

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Speaker 2: that I wanted to say something about because I strongly

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Speaker 2: encourage anyone to go who needs to go.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Jack is my boyfriend is also a particular kind

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Speaker 1: of recovering addict, and he feels similarly and that there's

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Speaker 1: like there's a lot of good there, there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of ways that can help people, but also there's some

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Speaker 1: like there is some rigidity that happens. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think what really brought it home for me was

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Speaker 2: there's this woman, her name is Holly. She wrote a

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Speaker 2: book called like Quit Like a Woman. I think they

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Speaker 2: actually brought it up in Sex and the City. Somebody

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Speaker 2: gave it to Miranda. But people in these meetings were

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Speaker 2: so angry at her, and shares were like, the stupid

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Speaker 2: bit who's saying, like, you don't have to go to

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Speaker 2: a program to get sober. I was like, but she

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Speaker 2: did get sober. And we say at the beginning of

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Speaker 2: our meets, like, we haven't found a better solution, but

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Speaker 2: if somebody has, that's great for them. So why are

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Speaker 2: we so angry with her? I don't I feel like

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Speaker 2: she should be celebrated.

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Speaker 5: That's all great?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, thanks, that's my response. What about you, what's

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Speaker 2: your cultiest thing this week?

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Speaker 1: My cultiest thing is that I haven't talked about this before. Right,

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Speaker 1: so we all know who Jordan Peterson is. I have

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Speaker 1: some guests lined up, or at least one guest lined up,

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Speaker 1: who's going to talk to us more about Jordan Peterson,

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Speaker 1: because I'm fascinated by him.

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Speaker 5: For anyone who.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't know who he is, he's a member of the

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Speaker 1: so called Intellectual Dark Web or the IDW, and it's

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Speaker 1: comprised of guys like him and Ben Shapiro and Sam

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Speaker 1: Harris was a part of it, although he denounced He

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Speaker 1: like announced his resignation because he thought it was getting

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Speaker 1: too crazy. I mean, not that there's literally a membership,

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Speaker 1: but he was like, I don't really want to be

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Speaker 1: a part of this anymore.

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Speaker 3: So.

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Speaker 1: Jordan Peterson, for anyone who doesn't know, he's basically wrote

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Speaker 1: this book, Twelve Rules for Life, and it's like a

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Speaker 1: really basic book, like self help book for men on

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Speaker 1: like how to be a good man, live in the

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Speaker 1: right kind of life.

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Speaker 5: And it's like stand up straight.

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Speaker 2: It's like chicken soup for the soul.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's like in the morning.

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Speaker 1: But then if you dive a little deeper into some

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Speaker 1: of the stuff he says. He talks a lot about lobsters,

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Speaker 1: He's said some really problematic things about women, no, and

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Speaker 1: trans people, and has some it's like on the surface,

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Speaker 1: he can he's helped a lot of guys feel like

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Speaker 1: they have some direction in their lives, which I think

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Speaker 1: is really valuable. And then also like, if you fwallow

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Speaker 1: too deep down the Jordan Peterson hole, suddenly you're aligned

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Speaker 1: with a lot of non critically thinking people who are

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Speaker 1: just really loud and have some hateful ideas.

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Speaker 5: People sort of have.

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Speaker 1: Never who've never really consumed Jordan Peterson material and just

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Speaker 1: hear his name are.

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Speaker 5: Like, fuck that guy. He's a fucking fill in the blank.

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Speaker 5: He's the worst of the worst. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but

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Speaker 5: and the worst.

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, no, there are things that I know

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Speaker 1: people who've really benefited from some of the things he said.

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Speaker 1: I just think that that is a bad hole to

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Speaker 1: fall down anyway.

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Speaker 5: So one of the funnier things.

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Speaker 1: About him is that he decided to go on an

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Speaker 1: all meat diet.

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Speaker 5: Do you know about this, Yes, I do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: So he decided to go.

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Speaker 1: On an all meat diet because it was purported to

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Speaker 1: be this like cure all diet, and the person who

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Speaker 1: was promoting this diet to him was his daughter, Mikayla

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Speaker 1: Peterson and Mikayla's Instagram, I fell down that rabbit hole

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Speaker 1: and I am terrified. So she is creating her own

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Speaker 1: own little cult because she's like the stereotypical conservative like

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Speaker 1: hot blonde who tells it like it is and is

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Speaker 1: willing to speak out against liberals. And it's like, sure, guys,

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Speaker 1: cancel culture is not constructive. I agree that it can

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Speaker 1: be bad.

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Speaker 5: But also you're saying a who lot of other stuff

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Speaker 5: there that's not good. But anyway, so she's she's like out.

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Speaker 1: There telling everyone that the all meat diet healed her.

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Speaker 1: She's out there telling people basically like spouting some scientology

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Speaker 1: esque like anti med stuff. She talks about how, like

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Speaker 1: her antidepressants had she had what do you call it, oh, withdrawal.

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Speaker 1: So she was talking about how she had SSRI withdrawal

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Speaker 1: for two and a half years and the only thing

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Speaker 1: that cured her was eating nothing but meat. So listen, guys,

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Speaker 1: antidepressants says her eyes. Yes, there is a withdrawl period

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Speaker 1: and I've been through it and it fucking sucks, and

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Speaker 1: I don't you know, I recommend going very slowly.

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Speaker 5: But two and a.

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Speaker 1: Half years Nah, at that point, you're just like obsessing

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Speaker 1: and whatever. Like maybe the meat diet works for her,

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Speaker 1: but like she is making it sound like this is

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Speaker 1: the cure all. It's gonna fix everything if you just

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Speaker 1: listen to her and do what she says. And then

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Speaker 1: she's interviewing all of these like very ideology driven people

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Speaker 1: while she and her dad also say they're anti ideology.

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Speaker 1: It's really really fascinating these people. But these are the

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Speaker 1: quote free thinkers that we have right now. And I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I just talked about this on another podcast, the even

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Speaker 1: More News podcast, But I think we really need some

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Speaker 1: role models right now in this period of time of

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Speaker 1: people who are like, yeah, no, we shouldn't try to

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Speaker 1: destroy other people, but also let's try to be balanced

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Speaker 1: and not hateful and the things that we think and

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Speaker 1: not well.

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Speaker 2: I think I think that just brings it back to

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Speaker 2: what we've learned on this podcast. I mean, both of

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Speaker 2: our things today it's kind of comes back to balance,

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Speaker 2: you know, right. You find things that work and then

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Speaker 2: you take what you need and you cannot fully align

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Speaker 2: with someone else's shit because you're an individual, right.

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Speaker 5: Jordan Peterson, And this is what I say all the time.

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Speaker 1: But Jordan Peterson, he's a psychologist in Toronto. That's cool,

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Speaker 1: But like when you listen to him on Joe Rogan

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Speaker 1: and he's basically like saying that we shouldn't do anything

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Speaker 1: about climate change because he's like spewing some word salad.

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Speaker 5: Like guys that is not.

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Speaker 1: An expert on that subject, right, Look to experts, Look

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Speaker 1: to multiple experts, not just one expert on a topic

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Speaker 1: that you're interested in. These guys are not the answer.

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Speaker 1: They don't fucking know what they're talking about. Right, Sorry,

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Speaker 1: I'm getting riled up. I'm very interested in getting to

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Speaker 1: know some of these like personas and like understanding what

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Speaker 1: their appeal is to then combat it and like try.

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Speaker 1: I really just wish somebody that had that sort of everyman, relatable,

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Speaker 1: balanced kind of vibe would come forth to be a

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Speaker 1: role model for these poor sad men who is not a.

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Speaker 5: Piece of shit.

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Speaker 2: All right, that's right, wonderful.

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Speaker 5: Okay, now that.

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Speaker 1: We've should talked half of the things that people like.

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Speaker 2: I was just thinking that. I was like, is anyone

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Speaker 2: still listening?

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Speaker 1: Shaw, we dive in with Yeah, with Miquel.

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Speaker 5: Okay, let's do it great, here we go.

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Speaker 1: Welcome Mchuel, Joe La to the show.

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Speaker 5: I'm so excited to have you today. We are we

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Speaker 5: are not just being Okay, So you are a musician.

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Speaker 1: Airborne Toxic Event is your band the Airborne Talk Event.

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Speaker 1: And I have been listening to your songs sometime around

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Speaker 1: midnight for the last decade and crying to it every

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Speaker 1: so often. Also, the author of Hollywood Park, your memoir

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Speaker 1: that you published was at twenty twenty. Yeah, just the

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Speaker 1: other day it came out, and now Megan's been crying

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Speaker 1: to it. So you're just making us cry left and

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Speaker 1: right here man, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Sorry about that. When friends is tell me they're going

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Speaker 3: to read my book always like it's really.

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Speaker 2: Sad, but there's a lot of hope too. Let's start

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Speaker 2: with the beginning.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: But also first I would just like to shout out

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Speaker 1: that I've been following you on Twitter for a long time.

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Speaker 5: I'm a big fan man.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Oh, thank you. Yeah, you don't really get anything

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Speaker 3: for that, Like Twitter, I feel like there should be points,

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Speaker 3: you know, like chips, like a cage at a casino,

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Speaker 3: and you certain number of retweets, you can like go

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Speaker 3: to a cage. I got a lot of reweets, Can

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Speaker 3: I get some? I feel like you should get at

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Speaker 3: the noodle bar just.

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Speaker 2: For signing on. That's how confusing Twitter is to me.

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Speaker 2: Every time I sign on, I feel like I should

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Speaker 2: get a present.

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Speaker 3: Thank you andless amounts of abuse that the going to

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Speaker 3: give you.

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Speaker 5: That's a very bad place, but it's horrible.

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Speaker 3: It's like wake up in the morning and let's see

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Speaker 3: what the worst people in the world think. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: but every morning geobles.

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Speaker 1: Every morning I tell myself, I'm not going to look

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Speaker 1: at it because it's going to make my day bad.

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Speaker 1: But then I do it anyway. But your tweets don't

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Speaker 1: make my daybad, So that's nice. Oh well, you are

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Speaker 1: here talking to us today because your family was in

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Speaker 1: and you were in as a result.

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Speaker 5: The group's sen and On.

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Speaker 1: We have not done a Senonon episode yet, which is

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Speaker 1: actually shocking. Can you just give a basic description.

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Speaker 5: Of what this group was.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so Synon was a drug rehabilitation. What's started as

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Speaker 3: a drug rehabilitation facility in the sixties, might have been

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Speaker 3: the late fifties. It was started by a guy named

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Speaker 3: Chuck Dieterrick who was very charismatic alcoholic. For anybody who's

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Speaker 3: in AA or anything, like, there's certain people that are

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Speaker 3: just great speakers, Like a good AA share is a

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Speaker 3: good story you know, like they know how to land

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Speaker 3: a joke. They understand storytelling. So he was this very

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Speaker 3: charismatic AA speaker and he decided he wanted to try

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Speaker 3: and help drug addicts get clean, which was sort of

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Speaker 3: like the next level I was like boss level of

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Speaker 3: you know, rehab. So he kind of he opened the

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Speaker 3: storefront in Santa Monica and started having dope fiends move in,

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Speaker 3: which was of course, like the opioid epidemic of the

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Speaker 3: day was was heroin, and they kind of lived together

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Speaker 3: in this loose knit sort of society group for a

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Speaker 3: long time. And for a long time that's kind of

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Speaker 3: all it was, was just this place in Santa Monica.

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Speaker 3: People went to get clean from heroin and it got

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Speaker 3: a good reputation for doing so. Eventually, you know, power corrupts,

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Speaker 3: absolute power cerups absolutely, you know, it started to go

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Speaker 3: to his head. I think to Chuck's had the insularness

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Speaker 3: of the community and the things that they had just

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Speaker 3: sort of done as traditions started becoming grained in this

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Speaker 3: kind of cult like way, and it's expanded as well.

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Speaker 3: What we're called lifestylers moved in. That was my mom.

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Speaker 3: My dad was what was called a dope fiend. There

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Speaker 3: was like dope fiends and lifestylers. Also, lifestyles could also

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Speaker 3: be called squares, and so dope fiends were the hardcore

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Speaker 3: addicts who went there to get clean. And then sometime

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Speaker 3: in the sixties, all these like utopian dreamers started to

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Speaker 3: move in and they wanted to like change the world,

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Speaker 3: and they were like a lot of intellectuals and artists

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Speaker 3: and Sinnadaan had a pretty good reputation for getting people clean.

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Speaker 3: I think Bob Dylan and his song about Lenny Bruce,

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Speaker 3: I think I had mentioned Synanon. The way he talks

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Speaker 3: about Synanon is like, well, you never quite made it

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Speaker 3: to cinna On. It never quite made it to that

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Speaker 3: level that might. I mean, it was sort of considered.

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Speaker 3: It was kind of cool, like a lot of jazz

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Speaker 3: musicians and famous intellectuals and actors and people would go

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Speaker 3: to this place in Santa Monica, and they would do

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Speaker 3: that what was called the game, which was sort of

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Speaker 3: like if an AA meeting had screaming, sort of.

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Speaker 2: It's like an AA meeting meets acting class kind of.

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Speaker 3: It's just it was insane. It was kind of like shocked.

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Speaker 3: They yeah, it's like you had just shocked the drug

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Speaker 3: addict out of their defenses. But then what happening is

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Speaker 3: all these lifestylers started doing it, and the Square started

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Speaker 3: doing it, and then became an intellectual movement, and you know,

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Speaker 3: hardcore intellectual movement and cult. Not that far hard right,

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Speaker 3: you guys, I'm sure well aware. So then it became

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Speaker 3: a cult and they started doing really weird things, the

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Speaker 3: worst of which, which I thought, which was that they

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Speaker 3: separated children from their parents and put them in this

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Speaker 3: place they called the School, which was very poorly named,

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Speaker 3: very orwellian to call it the school because it was

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Speaker 3: an orphanage, I mean, just nobody knew who their parents were.

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Speaker 3: They took them away and that's where you lived for years.

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Speaker 3: They broke up couples, they broke up marriages, they bought

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Speaker 3: a lot of guns. They threatened the lives of a

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Speaker 3: lot of people, they beat up a lot of people.

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Speaker 3: They were charged with attempted murder, tax fraud, all the

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Speaker 3: things that cults do. If there was a spectrum of cults,

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Speaker 3: you know, they got to the edge of violence. They

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Speaker 3: never quite made it. There was never like a Waco

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Speaker 3: type moment of like now we're going to go and

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Speaker 3: everyone's gonna die, mean a bunch of bullets or a

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Speaker 3: big line of kool aid and poison it. But it

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Speaker 3: kind of got right to the edge.

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Speaker 2: It feels like it could have gone there.

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Speaker 1: There was violence, right, it just wasn't straight murder or suicide.

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Speaker 3: Right, That's right. It was. It was violent, but it

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Speaker 3: was just a lot of people getting beat up for leaving.

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Speaker 3: And what I think I dealt with a lot in

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Speaker 3: the book was there was a lot of emotional violence

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Speaker 3: and just sort of what they did to people. But

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Speaker 3: the book, you know, the book isn't really about sin

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Speaker 3: and on. The book just kind of starts and cinema. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: And to some extent, a lot of what it does

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Speaker 3: is because I kind of we left when I was

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Speaker 3: still quite young, and a lot of the book is

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Speaker 3: kind of unpacking the mystery of this place where I

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Speaker 3: was born. And then a lot of other things as well,

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Speaker 3: and so there are people who know a lot more

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Speaker 3: about Synanon than I do. I'm just a guy who

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Speaker 3: wrote a book about my life that happened to start

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Speaker 3: at sin and On and then studied it here and there.

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Speaker 3: But there are definitely people who know more than me.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's I think that was a very very good

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Speaker 1: description because of the world that we live in. In

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Speaker 1: our podcast, I assume that everyone kind of knows that.

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Speaker 1: Nobody thinks that they're joining and cold, and everyone thinks

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Speaker 1: that they're joining a really positive movement. But I've been

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Speaker 1: going on other people's podcasts lately where they're like.

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Speaker 5: But why would you join that? And I'm like, oh, like,

404
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,760
Speaker 5: people still don't really know this. So it's like just to.

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Speaker 1: Clarify, like people were successfully getting clean through this program

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Speaker 1: right like it was successful.

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Speaker 3: I mean up until the moment when it started to

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Speaker 3: become very culty, and I think there's a few decisions

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Speaker 3: that made it very culty. You know, these things are

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Speaker 3: a spectrum, but it really did save a lot of lives.

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Speaker 3: And my dad, to the day he died, would say

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Speaker 3: saying On saved his life, and he also said it

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Speaker 3: was great. He would say it was a great place

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Speaker 3: to live. And you know that was like that it

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Speaker 3: wasn't so great for the kids, right right, I'm not

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Speaker 3: going to talk about that, but he would say it

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Speaker 3: was a great place to live. They had a really

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Speaker 3: good band, everyone danced, everyone was clean.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of coffee in the community.

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Speaker 3: It was cool. It was like it was it was

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Speaker 3: like the cool thing. It was hip. It was like

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Speaker 3: it was like it was like a club almost for

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Speaker 3: like intellectual beat mix.

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Speaker 2: So okay, So your dad was an addict and then

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Speaker 2: your mom was a Berkeley graduate. She was an intellectual

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Speaker 2: correct a square?

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Speaker 3: Is that? Okay?

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Speaker 2: And so she wanted to change the world. That was

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Speaker 2: her reason for.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think that's what she told people. And

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Speaker 3: I think probably what it was was she was the

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Speaker 3: last person that didn't have a lot of roots in

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Speaker 3: her own family. You know. It's also something I get

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Speaker 3: into in the book and you know, the here comes

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Speaker 3: sin and on and it's like, oh, I can just

436
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Speaker 3: devote my life to these people who are telling me

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Speaker 3: there's a solution, right. I think you know, cults like

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Speaker 3: extreme religions and things, you know, prey upon this kind

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Speaker 3: of I don't know, lack of more. You know, people

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Speaker 3: who aren't quite as moored to their own families or

441
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,080
Speaker 3: their own societies, and people are a little bit kind

442
00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,000
Speaker 3: of between the cracks, which, of course addicts famously fall

443
00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:28,600
Speaker 3: into that group.

444
00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:31,639
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, so your dad actually needs help getting cleaning

445
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,040
Speaker 1: your mom is kind of like searching for identity.

446
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:35,320
Speaker 3: And yeah, I think that's right.

447
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:37,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so beautifully written, and I feel like I

448
00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:40,240
Speaker 1: connect with some of the themes so much just from

449
00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:41,119
Speaker 1: my own childhood.

450
00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:43,520
Speaker 5: What are some of the earliest things that you remember

451
00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:43,800
Speaker 5: from this?

452
00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:45,480
Speaker 1: I mean you leve very young, obviously, but like you

453
00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:48,760
Speaker 1: were able to remember enough to write beautiful passages about it.

454
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:50,080
Speaker 5: So can you talk to us about that?

455
00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:53,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I remember the school. I remember the

456
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,040
Speaker 3: we slept in this room with all these other They

457
00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,560
Speaker 3: weren't quite cots and they weren't quite beds. They kind

458
00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,560
Speaker 3: of look like coffins. Actually, I'm sure they didn't see

459
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:04,600
Speaker 3: it that way, but you know, they all had these

460
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:06,760
Speaker 3: matching plaid blankets. I mean, like I said, I was

461
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:08,240
Speaker 3: very young when I left, so I have like two

462
00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:12,000
Speaker 3: or three memories of Synanon Beyond. Like I remember when

463
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:17,040
Speaker 3: we left, I remember waking up and my mom was there.

464
00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:20,520
Speaker 3: And you know, so you have to understand that we

465
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:22,879
Speaker 3: lived in the orphanage and we didn't really know what

466
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:24,920
Speaker 3: a mom was. We knew there was this woman and

467
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,439
Speaker 3: her name was mom, and we knew we were supposed

468
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:29,239
Speaker 3: to She wanted us to call her mom, and other

469
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:31,199
Speaker 3: people didn't want us to call her mom because they

470
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:33,640
Speaker 3: were really vested and the idea that Synanon had that

471
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:37,119
Speaker 3: everybody in Synanon was your parent, and you know, all

472
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,760
Speaker 3: the adults were your mom and dad. So the name mom,

473
00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:41,640
Speaker 3: you know, as sort of the way we think about

474
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:45,719
Speaker 3: it in modern society, didn't mean the same thing to us.

475
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:47,400
Speaker 3: It was just this sad woman that would come visit

476
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:49,600
Speaker 3: and cry, and then we wouldn't see her for weeks,

477
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:51,760
Speaker 3: and then she'd come visit for a few hours and cry,

478
00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:53,240
Speaker 3: and then we wouldn't see it for weeks. And it

479
00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:54,920
Speaker 3: kind of went on like that for a long time.

480
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:57,280
Speaker 3: So she showed up one day and was like, we

481
00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:59,159
Speaker 3: have to leave. And it was strange because there was

482
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,760
Speaker 3: this real sense of, you know, I'm unpacking this now

483
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,400
Speaker 3: with like my adult brain, but like I'm looking back,

484
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 3: like there was this sense of like are we are?

485
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,000
Speaker 3: We allowed to leave, like we're breaking the rules by leaving,

486
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,080
Speaker 3: Like is she allowed to take us? I don't think

487
00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:14,760
Speaker 3: that's right? Like that was the feeling, right, like I

488
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,040
Speaker 3: think she's we got to go ask.

489
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,840
Speaker 1: Someone, Like in the middle of the night, was that

490
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:21,480
Speaker 1: it was early morning morning?

491
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:23,680
Speaker 2: You were right, they were chasing you, like you weren't

492
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,120
Speaker 2: supposed to leave technically, right.

493
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, that's exactly right. But also there was just

494
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,160
Speaker 3: like this this really deep rooted sense that we didn't

495
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,920
Speaker 3: know what a family was. You know, in Cinta, you

496
00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,439
Speaker 3: didn't have Christmas, you didn't celebrate birthdays, you didn't there

497
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,760
Speaker 3: was just a cult and so, you know, and and

498
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,600
Speaker 3: then the people who were around sometimes that were pretty good,

499
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,120
Speaker 3: like I had I had a very good caretaker, Swim

500
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,040
Speaker 3: and Bonnie, who eventually ended up being very important in

501
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:50,879
Speaker 3: my life and was very important in my life at

502
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 3: that point as well. But a lot of people didn't

503
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:54,159
Speaker 3: have that. And so you just have these kids that

504
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,639
Speaker 3: had just been alone in this place for years, didn't

505
00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:01,280
Speaker 3: remember what their parents looked like, didn't remember uh, didn't

506
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:03,159
Speaker 3: know what it meant to be have a mom or

507
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,560
Speaker 3: a dad. They'd get sick, there was they wouldn't you know,

508
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,880
Speaker 3: have anyone to cry to. It was a fucking orphanage

509
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,800
Speaker 3: in what was the structure of the day like it

510
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:13,399
Speaker 3: was different for there was the upper school in the

511
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:15,400
Speaker 3: lower school. The upper school se the older kids, the

512
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 3: lower school was for the younger kids. It was a

513
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 3: day care center. I think you know that that part

514
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,680
Speaker 3: of it. They they spent some time. It's funny. There's

515
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:25,720
Speaker 3: like myths that they tell about themselves. And I'm sure

516
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:27,480
Speaker 3: you've dealt with this a lot, Hight. There's a group

517
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:29,919
Speaker 3: think and like a script that everybody follows, and that

518
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,480
Speaker 3: script's enforced like a canon, right, and then if you

519
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,439
Speaker 3: violate the canon, then you're cast off as a heretic,

520
00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 3: so you have to repeat the cannon. And the cannon

521
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:39,840
Speaker 3: about Synerona was, oh, it has a great school. I

522
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:41,919
Speaker 3: heard that so much growing up from my folks and

523
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:43,920
Speaker 3: from friends, my friends, you know, Sinata. They had a

524
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:45,960
Speaker 3: great school, and no one stopped to be like school,

525
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 3: that's a weird word to choose school.

526
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:50,040
Speaker 5: Was there any education happening?

527
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:52,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, there was some. I don't think there was that

528
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:54,399
Speaker 3: much because I had heard this a lot, and then

529
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:55,920
Speaker 3: I started when I was writing the book, I queried

530
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 3: some people about It's like, okay, so tell me about

531
00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 3: the school. So how'd you guys decide to curriculum? Did

532
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:01,880
Speaker 3: you start with like the state mandated curriculum? And then

533
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 3: and they're like, oh no, we just you know, we

534
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:05,639
Speaker 3: we figured out like you had to teach reading. I

535
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 3: was like, oh, so you have different grade level requirements

536
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 3: and there was essay, right, and you made sure that

537
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 3: it was followed with the grades were I mean no, no,

538
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 3: we just there was like some writing and then we'd

539
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,639
Speaker 3: learned and it was like there was nothing. And then

540
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 3: you're like, okay, so who took care of the little kids? Oh?

541
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,399
Speaker 3: You know, we had really good staff. It was a

542
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 3: good school because they would just say the thing and

543
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 3: then you go it just goes back to the beginning.

544
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,440
Speaker 3: Right they trained? Were they was there a background check?

545
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:29,399
Speaker 3: Were they fingerprinted? Did you make sure none of these

546
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 3: people were fucking child molesters? Because some of them were?

547
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 3: And oh no, oh no, we didn't need to do that.

548
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,399
Speaker 3: I mean it was sitting on and you're like and

549
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:40,240
Speaker 3: then that's where that's sort of the cult starts sick

550
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 3: coming when you're like, oh that was it was really

551
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,879
Speaker 3: irresponsible and I don't think they meant to do us

552
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 3: any harm our folks. They weren't bad people or anything,

553
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:52,920
Speaker 3: and particularly like, I don't blame even you know, I

554
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 3: don't blame I have a difficult relationship with my mother,

555
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,399
Speaker 3: but I don't blame her for that. They were just

556
00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 3: they didn't think about it. And I think a lot

557
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,360
Speaker 3: of the parents had mixed feelings about it as well.

558
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:03,639
Speaker 1: I can imagine I can imagine that would have been

559
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:05,439
Speaker 1: very difficult for many of the parents.

560
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,160
Speaker 5: Absolutely like, yeah.

561
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 3: But it was a cult called STU fucked up things, right.

562
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 5: They certainly do.

563
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, And in this case some of the things that

564
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,160
Speaker 1: would happen with the group, so all the women all

565
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 1: had to shave their heads.

566
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 5: At a certain point, the leader Chuck Dietrich, so his.

567
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:24,679
Speaker 1: Wife died and then after that he was basically like,

568
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:29,640
Speaker 1: no more love for anyone, and yeah, made everyone get divorced.

569
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was called uh. Yeah, they broke up all

570
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 3: the partners, changing partners, they called it. And there was

571
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,680
Speaker 3: like this system and people got matched up with different

572
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 3: people and some people left, like a lot of people left.

573
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,000
Speaker 3: Married couple said you know, screw this, We're not doing this.

574
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,479
Speaker 3: And then a bunch of people said, Okay, and they

575
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 3: just kind of went along with it. And then the

576
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 3: really heartbreaking stories were the ones that people where one

577
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 3: partner said, let's go, I love you, this place was great,

578
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:54,440
Speaker 3: but and the other person.

579
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,959
Speaker 2: That know, M I want to get my new partner

580
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 2: and move on.

581
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 5: Right, There's so many similarities.

582
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's completely different, but there are similarities

583
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 1: to the FLDS, and that the kids kind of don't

584
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 1: really have one parent. It's like multiple people parenting all

585
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 1: of the kids. And then like marriages stop when the

586
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,399
Speaker 1: leader can't get married. If the leader can't fuck no

587
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:18,360
Speaker 1: one can, and people get getting reassigned to you know, whoever,

588
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,360
Speaker 1: whoever he decides or whatever. There's there are just parallels

589
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 1: among all these groups, no matter how different they are.

590
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, interesting side not Synonam was like half black,

591
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 3: And one thing even the most harsh Synonym critic would

592
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,399
Speaker 3: say is that there really wasn't a lot of racism.

593
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,159
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm sure there was somewhere, and you know,

594
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 3: we're all white, so what do we know about racism?

595
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,160
Speaker 3: But I think all of my black friends from Synonym

596
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,160
Speaker 3: would also say of my generation that we've had long

597
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,439
Speaker 3: talks about it and it was almost a shock when

598
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 3: they left Synanon that the rest of society was so

599
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,439
Speaker 3: much more. Really, it really was, so despite all the

600
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 3: bad things about Sinna, and you could say at least

601
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 3: that one thing, and there was tons of mixed couples,

602
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 3: and like I didn't even know what racism was. It

603
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 3: was explained to me and I was like, that doesn't

604
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 3: sound right. Like someone was like, oh, there's these stereotypes

605
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 3: about differ in groups and they think this, this and this,

606
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 3: and I was like, that's stupid. That doesn't even make sense.

607
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 3: Just like we were just taught.

608
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 5: But isn't that interesting that you're in a cult?

609
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 2: Like that's how my family is. It's like the cult

610
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 2: is so much more important than the color of people.

611
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 2: I think it's an interesting byproduct. Yeah, I just think

612
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 2: that they're choosing this one main thing over.

613
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,160
Speaker 1: All other there's still an in group and an our group.

614
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 5: Yeah different, Yeah, Yeah.

615
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,160
Speaker 3: Maybe I think that was part of it. I really

616
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 3: do think also that Sinnadon just attracted a type of

617
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 3: person who didn't care for that kind of thinking. It

618
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 3: was the dope fiends in the intellectuals and the hippies

619
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 3: and the you know, it was all these people that

620
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 3: were like, no, fuck all that. Like, if we're going

621
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,919
Speaker 3: to leave one thing behind, it's that. And that was

622
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 3: part of the appeal to place, Like we toked it.

623
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 3: You're saying, like where it's like, why did people move in?

624
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 3: That was one of the main appeals. What if we

625
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 3: really can start a society without racism. That's a pretty

626
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 3: strong appeal, you know, that would attract me. I mean

627
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 3: that part of it was definitely a positive, a positive. Yeah,

628
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:01,640
Speaker 3: I think you're right. People they join cults, they don't

629
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 3: know they're joining cults. And the people who join this

630
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 3: but that was part of what they joined. They were like, Oh,

631
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 3: here's this place where race is way less salient and

632
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 3: we're going to try to leave behind this legacy of

633
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 3: racism that we inherited.

634
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 1: There's so many groups like that in the seventies. There

635
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:16,159
Speaker 1: are just so many in the seventies. I feel like

636
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 1: we're in another era like that right now. For Marrid reasons,

637
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:24,400
Speaker 1: People's temple same thing. We're creating a utopia where racism

638
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 1: isn't a thing, and you know, equality is what we value.

639
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 1: And that's like, yeah, I get the peel of that.

640
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 5: That seems very valuable.

641
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 3: Pus was a great band.

642
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 5: Dancing anyone cat.

643
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:37,120
Speaker 3: Party every Saturday night.

644
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 5: Nobody drinks but drug free, yeah.

645
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 3: Free except for the caffeine and nicotine. This go.

646
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 1: The way that you structure this book is really awesome

647
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 1: because it's from the perspective of you as a child,

648
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 1: like trying to understand what's happening, and like not having

649
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 1: a language for it and not really understanding some of

650
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 1: the words people are using. I just think about like me,

651
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 1: when I think about my own experience, I was older

652
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 1: than you were, but still like trying to construct the

653
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: memories and like figuring things out as I go. It's

654
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 1: like putting a puzzle together. Was what was that experience

655
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 1: of like generally just like writing this book and figuring

656
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 1: it all out.

657
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 3: Tony Morrison has this wonderful idea from Beloved where she

658
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 3: talks about rememory and she has this notion that memories

659
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 3: themselves live in places, and she of course talks about

660
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 3: it in this, you know, Tony Morrison esque, beautiful way.

661
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 3: But the way I would think about it is that

662
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 3: it's like if you ever go to your childhood home

663
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 3: and suddenly you remember like tons of stuff. Let's say

664
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 3: you haven't been there in like a decade, you remember

665
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 3: so many things that you had forgotten, just completely forgotten about,

666
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 3: and not just stories or ideas, but feelings, feelings about

667
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 3: the world and about yourself and what it means to

668
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 3: be yourself and what it means to be in the world,

669
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 3: and what it means to be yourself in the world,

670
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 3: and you know, all of these sorts of things. They

671
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 3: live in places. It was a really powerful idea for

672
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 3: me to kind of catch on to that, and so

673
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 3: before with the book, I just went to a lot

674
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 3: of the places. While I was doing research for the book.

675
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 3: I spent like six months researching before I started the book,

676
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 3: and I would sit down at a place and just

677
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 3: write down everything I remember or use a tape recorder

678
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 3: and just absolutely everything I could think of and the

679
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 3: details and the feeling and the notions and all the

680
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 3: different things I was having about it and sort of

681
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 3: try to construct or empty out what was in my head.

682
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 3: And then i'd go home, I'd take it, I'd write

683
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 3: it out and then set it aside, and these would

684
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 3: be like, you know, somewhere between thirty to forty pages

685
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 3: per place. Oh wow, and they were just like wow, wow.

686
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 3: It was really helpful. Because then when I went back

687
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 3: to write the book and I was thinking about things

688
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 3: like all the writerly concerns about character and about metaphor

689
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 3: and about language and transitions and irony and all these

690
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 3: things that you're doing. Voice was a big one for me.

691
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 3: I didn't have to reconstruct as many details and sort

692
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 3: of ideas around the places I was because I had

693
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 3: already done a lot of the footwork, so that was

694
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 3: just there, and I can think about other things and

695
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 3: think about each scene. It allowed me to think about

696
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 3: each scene at different levels at different times, so I

697
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 3: didn't have to feel like I had to think about

698
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 3: everything that was going on all at once, and so

699
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 3: I wanted the book to sort of each scene in

700
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 3: the book to work on a few different levels.

701
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 5: It was, Yeah, it's it's really impressive. Have you read

702
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 5: Carl Canal's.

703
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 3: Guard, Oh my struggle. I can't get down with like,

704
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 3: like middle class white men just being upset about their lives.

705
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 3: I just I can't get down with it out care like.

706
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 3: I have so many friends that have read those books,

707
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 3: and I read like half of one, and I just

708
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 3: I didn't get it. So I'm sure it's great. I'm

709
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 3: sure he's a good writer. A lot of my best

710
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 3: friends are white men. It's just like I just I

711
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 3: was just like, I don't care, dude, some people like

712
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 3: I wanted something bad to actually happen to him, so

713
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 3: I would like be.

714
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: Engaged laughing so hard, right, he is the end of

715
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 1: the book is is actually the end of the first

716
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 1: book is the most compelling part because something bad does happen,

717
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 1: but does yeah, and it's he But anyway, the reason

718
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 1: I asked was just because the I.

719
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 3: Don't need to take the piss by the way, I'm

720
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 3: sure he's a great writer. I like, I'm I'm not

721
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 3: in any way. I don't feel it's right to really

722
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 3: diss another writers thing. That's not what I'm saying. I'm

723
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 3: just saying, like my my instinctual response to when I

724
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 3: sat down to read.

725
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 1: It, totally fair, totally fair. But know the way he

726
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: like the detail of the memories that he's writing about,

727
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 1: I was just so so impressive, And I feel like

728
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 1: I get a similar feeling from yours, where I'm like,

729
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 1: how do you remember that?

730
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 2: Like one of the memories comes right after this where

731
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 2: you you guys are hiding at someone's house and he like,

732
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 2: people show up to basically attack him. And you remember

733
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 2: it in the craziest detail.

734
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 5: Can you attack whom attack?

735
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 2: Attack the man they're staying with?

736
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, can you tell us about that?

737
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 3: So we had had a friend of my mother's who

738
00:32:55,880 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 3: came to stay with us, and he had a daughter

739
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 3: that was in Synaon as well, and a wife ex wife,

740
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 3: I'm not sure whether they were divorced, shed or not

741
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 3: at that point, and she would go back and forth

742
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 3: between living with us and living with their mom and

743
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 3: syn and on. It was a big court case because

744
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 3: a bunch of people who had left were suing so

745
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 3: that Sin and On this couldn't happen, and Sin and

746
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 3: I couldn't have their children. And so he had been

747
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 3: given some some threats. I didn't know this till later,

748
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 3: but I found out later he'd been threatened a bunch

749
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 3: of times, and they were basically like back off, like

750
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:35,239
Speaker 3: or something really bad it's going to happen to you.

751
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 3: And this is after we left. So we left just

752
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 3: to catch you up. Like we left, We ne a

753
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 3: dime to our names. You know, my mom had been

754
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 3: in there for ten years. My dad was still in

755
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 3: for a few more months. I think they got divorced

756
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 3: before I was born, and we just left my in

757
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 3: my grand my grandfather's car. My mom still had a

758
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 3: shaved head. We went to you know, my grandparents' house

759
00:33:57,560 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 3: to stay for a few weeks. That was literally it

760
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 3: because my mom and my grandmother didn't get along because

761
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 3: my grandmother was a pretty raging drug and so we

762
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 3: moved to East Oakland. We lived on food stamps. We

763
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 3: drink you know, canned soup out of little firofoam cups,

764
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 3: and slept. We would build our big My mom was

765
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:19,959
Speaker 3: trying to try to make it into a thing where,

766
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 3: you know, it was nice that we had furniture we

767
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 3: could make out of clothes because it meant we could

768
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 3: you know, make them in a different shape, and isn't

769
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:30,240
Speaker 3: that fun. So we slept in our jackets and we'd

770
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 3: you know, go to the food bank and wait in

771
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,320
Speaker 3: line and get the government cheese and Goodwill for clothes.

772
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 3: All our clothes were you know, good will clothes. And

773
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,800
Speaker 3: my mom she wasn't great about like keeping us super clean.

774
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 3: I think we looked pretty ragged at the time and

775
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 3: just but we were just very poor. I mean, you know,

776
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 3: it's not it's noone's fault. But that's just where the

777
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 3: situation we were in. So my mom's friend shows up

778
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 3: and says, well, when don't we you know, pull resources

779
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 3: and we can get a house together and we can

780
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 3: get out of East Oakland because Eastakland was very, uh,

781
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,320
Speaker 3: it was a pretty dangerous neighborhood where we lived. Somebody

782
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 3: broken into the apartment, and I think the one possession

783
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 3: we had was like this plastic record player and some

784
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 3: you know, some of my earliest memories were just like

785
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 3: we would sit there, there was nothing to do, and

786
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 3: so we would just put on the record player and

787
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 3: listen to it for hours, just laying on these jackets.

788
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 5: And do you think that's where your love of music began?

789
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 3: Yeah? Maybe. And then when we came home one day

790
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:25,799
Speaker 3: and someone had broken in and they stole the record

791
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,319
Speaker 3: it was like the only few weeks. I mean, they

792
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 3: probably were bummed when they broke in. There was like

793
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:31,360
Speaker 3: there's just a bunch of jackets.

794
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 2: They were like, somebody steal this shoe table.

795
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:41,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, the styrofoamed us with leftover chicken soup. It was.

796
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 3: It was. It was a pretty rough time. And so

797
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 3: so we got a house in Berkeley and there was

798
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,280
Speaker 3: this sense like we're gonna move to Berkeley and everything's

799
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 3: gonna be okay. We're gonna live with Phil and we're

800
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 3: gonna all get along and it's gonna be great. Uh.

801
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:53,399
Speaker 3: And and he was a really gentleman. It's a really

802
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:55,319
Speaker 3: nice guy. And you gotta understand, weren't used to being

803
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 3: around men. I mean, we were just two boys, my

804
00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 3: brother and I he was three years older, who had

805
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 3: just been in this school for all these years, this

806
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 3: orphanage raised by handed off essentially a group of women.

807
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 3: Most of the caretakers were women, we call them demonstrators,

808
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 3: and so men were always a little like well, I mean,

809
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 3: our dad would come to visit, which, of course we

810
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:20,760
Speaker 3: worshiped him. We worshiped our dad because swashbuckling, masculine pirate. Ah,

811
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 3: that was my dad. Just charming and great guy and

812
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 3: warm and funny, and you know, rode a Harley motorcycle.

813
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 3: And we all we knew all his stories from when

814
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 3: he was a professional criminal and all the time he'd

815
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 3: done in prison and when he busted out of a

816
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 3: Mexican prison and when he escaped the cops, all this stuff.

817
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 3: He was like a fucking but also just kind of absent,

818
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 3: and so we're these two boys and we're just fascinated

819
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,359
Speaker 3: by men because we don't we don't ever see men,

820
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 3: and somewhere in our minds were like, someday we'll be

821
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:50,360
Speaker 3: one of these. And I think also when you have

822
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 3: a single mother and your boy, you get a sense

823
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 3: of just how rare men are. Maybe a good man

824
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 3: or something, the idea that you want a good man,

825
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 3: you got to have a good man. He needs to

826
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 3: be a good man. Is he being a good man

827
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 3: to you? Or is he going to help raise the kids?

828
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 3: Is he going to be a father figure. And our mom,

829
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 3: who was slightly mentally ill, of course, just would talk

830
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 3: about all this stuff very openly. When you need a

831
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 3: father figure, you need to Phil can be your father figure.

832
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 3: She would say stuff like that to us. So we're

833
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 3: just in this confusing world and all this is going on.

834
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,840
Speaker 3: So we moved into this house in Berkeley, and he is.

835
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 3: He's a really nice man. He's really gentle, he's really warm,

836
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 3: and he and I don't think they were dating, by

837
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,399
Speaker 3: the way, I think they actually were his friends. When

838
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 3: I interviewed him for the book, he was, you know,

839
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 3: he was pretty oudamant on that point. I think he

840
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 3: had a crush on her, but really warm. He was

841
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,720
Speaker 3: like an anti nuclear activist guy, and he was working

842
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,320
Speaker 3: on trying to shut down a nuclear reactor in the area,

843
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,799
Speaker 3: and you know, play little games and the neighbor. One time,

844
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:51,359
Speaker 3: I remember thought he was my dad, and you know,

845
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 3: he came out and pretended to be my dad and

846
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 3: didn't because he knew I felt sort of embarrassed about

847
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 3: not having a dad and stuff. He was a good guy.

848
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 3: He really was a nice man. So we're home one

849
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 3: day and he says he's going to go to the store,

850
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,359
Speaker 3: and he comes back from the store and he has

851
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,280
Speaker 3: this VW bus and he gets out of his VW

852
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 3: bus because like any good hipie, you have to have

853
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 3: the VW bus, of course, And he gets out and

854
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 3: he's got these groceries, and I'm on the porch, and

855
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 3: I should say we weren't generally allowed outside because we

856
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 3: knew that the Sinnamon goons were trying to get people.

857
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 3: We'd heard the stories. One guy came home and his

858
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 3: dog was hanging from the tree. People who tried to

859
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:33,759
Speaker 3: leave they were called split teas or more often than not,

860
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 3: these fucking split teeth because you were like lower lower

861
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 3: than you know, beings on the planet because you dared

862
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 3: to leave the society, you know. And they would beat

863
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 3: people up on the way out the door. They would

864
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 3: stop him on the highway and beat him up. They

865
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,280
Speaker 3: would go to different people's houses. They put a rattlesnake

866
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 3: famously in someone's mailbox, his lawyer and then Paul mor Ants,

867
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 3: and he put his hand in it got bit and

868
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 3: he almost died. He was in a coma. So we

869
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 3: knew about all these stories. And and so we were

870
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 3: never allowed to play outside. And so the three of us,

871
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 3: Phil's daughter and my brother and I would we had

872
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:09,400
Speaker 3: this garage that we played in and we'd listen to

873
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 3: the kids on the street. M hmm. Sorry. So we

874
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:20,359
Speaker 3: we play our games and do all the stuff we did,

875
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:23,399
Speaker 3: but you know, we always wanted to go outside and play.

876
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 3: So this is one of the few days we actually

877
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 3: were Summaris or another allowed outside. So I'm on the porch.

878
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 3: Phil comes home these uh, these two men come up

879
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 3: behind him and they're holding these I don't know. They

880
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 3: were like rods. They weren't quite baseball bats. They were

881
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 3: like maybe pipes, I'm not sure. They were like black

882
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,360
Speaker 3: and kind of maybe this big like a police baton

883
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,760
Speaker 3: or something, and he kind of looks at me and smiles,

884
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 3: and then at first I thought they and they had

885
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 3: these like flesh covered nylons over their faces, and at

886
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:55,840
Speaker 3: first I thought it was like, is someone playing a prank?

887
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 3: Is something like? What? Why are these guys coming? Is

888
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 3: this maybe the friends of his is like Paula. But

889
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 3: it's like you hear about this thing. This is so fast.

890
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 3: Everything happened so quickly, and so he just like come

891
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 3: up and they they start beating him, and he starts

892
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 3: screaming and he fell on the ground. I think a

893
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,359
Speaker 3: shoe fell off or something, and you can just hear

894
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 3: him screaming on the street. And I remember I go

895
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 3: to hide behind a like a call him, and I

896
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 3: was watching, and I remember our eyes met, and I

897
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 3: always remember that because he had this look on his face,

898
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:31,839
Speaker 3: and it's what's weird. When I interviewed him for the book,

899
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 3: I hadn't talked to him in thirty years, and he

900
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 3: remembers that moment too. He was like, I remember being

901
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 3: on the ground and looking up and seeing your face.

902
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 3: M sorry, and he said that he said, this is

903
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:51,360
Speaker 3: what he said to me. In the interview, was I

904
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 3: remember thinking, this is a this is something that someone

905
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 3: in his age shouldn't know about. Oh, he's still thinking

906
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:02,280
Speaker 3: about you, right, Oh man, So all this is happening

907
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:03,799
Speaker 3: to me, he's thinking about a kid like this is

908
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 3: what I mean. So eventually a neighbor comes out starts

909
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 3: screaming at him, there's all these kids. Oh I should

910
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 3: I should add. So my brother's across the street playing

911
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 3: with some kids, and the guys sort of builds unconscious

912
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:24,399
Speaker 3: bleeding on the driveway. Uh. And they say, and I'm

913
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 3: hiding at this point, and they say, where's McCallan tony

914
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 3: because they were coming to get us, wow, which is,

915
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 3: of course what we've been told for months was going

916
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 3: to happen, but we didn't really believe it. So he

917
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 3: asked they addressed us to the kids, and and they

918
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 3: all look at each other. And because nobody knows who

919
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 3: we are, because we're always just locked in that garage. Uh.

920
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 3: And Uh, my brother, when I interviewed him about all

921
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 3: this stuff, you know, he said, he just froze and

922
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 3: he didn't know what to do. Uh. And he thought,

923
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 3: for sure, Okay, they're gonna come get us. But then

924
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 3: since nobody knew who we were. They just you know,

925
00:41:57,440 --> 00:41:59,839
Speaker 3: they left, and I think, you know, there's a sense

926
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 3: that police were going to come or something. And then

927
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 3: an ambulance came, and you know, I remember my brother

928
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 3: screaming and my mom came out and she was screaming

929
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:12,799
Speaker 3: on the porch, and and then he went to the

930
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 3: hospital and he was it was in a coma for

931
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:20,799
Speaker 3: a month, yeah, encephalitis. He almost died as well. And

932
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,880
Speaker 3: then we moved and then we left to Oregon. My

933
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,240
Speaker 3: mom had gotten a job at the mental hospital and Salem, Oregon.

934
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 3: So we packed up all our stuff and we left.

935
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:32,279
Speaker 3: And there was like a moment there where it was

936
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:35,319
Speaker 3: like there's such a feeling of defeat. I remember just

937
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 3: we were driving up the coast and it was raining

938
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 3: that day. It always rains in Oregon, but it was

939
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 3: raining that day, and it was like the sense that

940
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 3: we had just lost the Sennon was in shambles and

941
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 3: we had all this violence and we were broken, you know.

942
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 3: I mean that hung over the whole time I was

943
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 3: in Oregon. We were there for five years, just the

944
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,840
Speaker 3: sense that we went there to hide because California was

945
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 3: just too crazy and tool and we had to hide

946
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 3: on the other side of the mountains, in this far

947
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:05,320
Speaker 3: away place where it always rained.

948
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 5: And how old were you when you left?

949
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:09,920
Speaker 2: That's a nightmare.

950
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 4: That is so much for a kid, that literally being chased.

951
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,359
Speaker 4: That's like what I was scared of every night in bed.

952
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,799
Speaker 4: But it wasn't real. Knowing that it's real is I mean,

953
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 4: that's a nightmare.

954
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 5: And seeing it happen. I mean that it must have

955
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 5: been so traumatic.

956
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:28,839
Speaker 3: It's awful. But what's funny is that nobody ever said that.

957
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 3: Like I think now, having been through like therapy and

958
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 3: being adult who's read a lot of books about it,

959
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 3: I'd be like, yeah, shit. But at the time, no

960
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 3: one ever, no one ever asked us about it. No

961
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:42,840
Speaker 3: one ever asked me about it. We never saw a therapist,

962
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:46,320
Speaker 3: We never no one even said how was your experience

963
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 3: with all this? We're always treated as these accessories. We

964
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 3: were like these ancillary things to our parents' experience, and

965
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 3: particularly to my mom's experience, which is one of the

966
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 3: things I write about in the books. She had this

967
00:43:57,960 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 3: way of just sort of seeing the world to this

968
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 3: very war lens. She was like severely depressed, and I

969
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 3: came to sort of learn that there were some other

970
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:07,759
Speaker 3: things going on sort of with her mental state, but

971
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:10,360
Speaker 3: that you know, there was no one ever asked, no

972
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 3: one ever mentioned it. It was just kind of and

973
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 3: and what happened was actually, over time we stopped talking

974
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 3: about it altogether, and she would then create a new

975
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 3: version of events where I wasn't even home.

976
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:25,319
Speaker 2: When this beating took place. She'd be like, you weren't there.

977
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 3: Wow.

978
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:29,319
Speaker 6: You would say those exact words wow, And I think

979
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 6: it's you know, I later learned that this was part

980
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:33,759
Speaker 6: of this sort of mental disorder that she had, but

981
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 6: that you know, it's like the truth was too much

982
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:39,760
Speaker 6: or something, so she just would invent a new reality.

983
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:41,480
Speaker 3: And she did this in a lot of different contexts

984
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 3: in her life. But you know, obviously for me, that

985
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 3: was not a very easy one to just be told,

986
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 3: you know that, particularly at that age, because it was

987
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:50,800
Speaker 3: very confusing. It was like somewhere in your mind, you're like, Okay,

988
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:52,920
Speaker 3: this is real. I went through it, I lived it,

989
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 3: I felt it, it happened, and then you have a

990
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:58,920
Speaker 3: parent telling you it's not and you literally don't. It

991
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:02,279
Speaker 3: sort of teaches you to to compartmentalize your life, right

992
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:05,239
Speaker 3: or to not trust the parent, or to trust the parent,

993
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:08,239
Speaker 3: not trust yourself, or to sort of live between these

994
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:10,879
Speaker 3: different polls depending on the day or the situation, which

995
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 3: is what I did.

996
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 2: I could not relate more to that same.

997
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean in a different way. Obviously, my mom

998
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:20,479
Speaker 1: is My mom's amazing, and you know, she's come she's

999
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:22,759
Speaker 1: been through so much, so so much, and come out

1000
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 1: the other end and helps people. But I very much

1001
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 1: relate to the idea that like, this isn't really something

1002
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 1: we're supposed to talk about. This isn't really something that

1003
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 1: happened to me, And that's not her fault so much

1004
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 1: as just a product of like not talking about it

1005
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 1: and not being a family that really knew anything about

1006
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 1: therapy at that time, or that wasn't something that we valued.

1007
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 1: So it was kind of just like, Okay, we'll just

1008
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 1: put that away and just continue on and yeah, only

1009
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:49,319
Speaker 1: now am I like, Oh, yeah, I guess, I guess I.

1010
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 5: Was affected by that.

1011
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 2: I think just like having parents that believe something so

1012
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 2: strongly and I didn't at all, even as a child,

1013
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 2: and just being like I'm obviously missing something. You guys

1014
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 2: just tell me what to think and say and do,

1015
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:07,800
Speaker 2: because I don't get it, and that's something that's really

1016
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 2: hard to work on even now. Like I just I

1017
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 2: gave a part of my brain away because I just

1018
00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 2: felt like I was I.

1019
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 3: Think that's right. I think it's exactly it. And so

1020
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 3: it's you were sort of taught that though it was like,

1021
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 3: you know, I don't know your situation. In my situation,

1022
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 3: I would say we were sort of preyed upon in

1023
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:27,359
Speaker 3: a way, which, by the way, I don't think they

1024
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,319
Speaker 3: did on purpose. No, Yeah, my mother is not a

1025
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 3: malicious person. I don't think she ever meant to hurt us.

1026
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:36,240
Speaker 3: I really don't know. I just think she was abused

1027
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 3: as a kid and neglected and grew up a certain

1028
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 3: way and then had these horrible things happened to her

1029
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 3: in her life because of some poor decisions that she made,

1030
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:45,720
Speaker 3: and then we were just there.

1031
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 2: It's just such when they're not the narcissistic parent, you know,

1032
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 2: like they're just the one who got and so you're

1033
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 2: protective of them, but you also were hurt by it,

1034
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 2: and so.

1035
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 3: It's just this like, oh, because.

1036
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 2: You're so protective of your mom. She's such a wonderful person.

1037
00:46:57,800 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 2: My mom's an angel.

1038
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 5: But it's like confusing, it's confusing.

1039
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, you have to just throw I find that it's

1040
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:07,279
Speaker 3: important to draw really thick boundaries and like here's and

1041
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:10,280
Speaker 3: and for me, you know, the boundaries sort of lengthened

1042
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:12,759
Speaker 3: over the years. Actually they've gotten further and further as

1043
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 3: I could become sort of more I don't know, protective

1044
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 3: of my mental state, because one of the things I

1045
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 3: learned was that my mental state didn't matter. Right, we're

1046
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:23,879
Speaker 3: sort of getting into this other area of talking about

1047
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 3: parents with narcissism, which that was the other sort of

1048
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 3: thing I pieced together over time that my mom had

1049
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 3: either borderline or narcissistic personality disorder. There's enough both.

1050
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:34,880
Speaker 5: Really fun to deal with.

1051
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:36,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, really yeah, And there's a lot.

1052
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 3: Of overlap between those two, particularly with women who tend

1053
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 3: to be more borderline men tend to be more narcisssic personally.

1054
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:43,839
Speaker 3: But then there's a lot it's just cluster b it's

1055
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 3: all kind of a ser You decide the world is

1056
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 3: too confusing and weird, and so you and usually people

1057
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:52,800
Speaker 3: are pretty smart, and so you build a self protective

1058
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 3: world that is like this big fantasy. And the thing

1059
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 3: about the narcissist myth isn't that you know, you're just

1060
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:02,359
Speaker 3: and selfish and all that. It's that you look into

1061
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 3: the water and see only yourself, and narcissists look into

1062
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:07,440
Speaker 3: the world and they see only themselves. They only see

1063
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:11,359
Speaker 3: this world that they've constructed around themselves, because actual human

1064
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 3: emotion is actually a little baffling for them. They don't

1065
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:16,800
Speaker 3: quite understand empathy, they don't quite understand someone else's sadness.

1066
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 3: They don't quite understand and so they just think they

1067
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:22,839
Speaker 3: can outsmart everyone by creating this like structure and responses

1068
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:25,360
Speaker 3: and this thick web, and of course the horrible parents.

1069
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, that's that's what I gather.

1070
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 3: I don't think my mom, for example, meant to do harm,

1071
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 3: but I think that's also not the point, right. It

1072
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:41,319
Speaker 3: doesn't matter, right, It doesn't matter if she meant to

1073
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 3: do harm. It matters that we were harmed, right, And

1074
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:47,440
Speaker 3: it also doesn't matter whether I blame her or not,

1075
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 3: Like sometimes I blame her sometimes that's also the wrong question.

1076
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 3: You know, Forgiveness isn't really the quiet. I feel like

1077
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 3: a society we're very obsessed with forgiveness, like the idea

1078
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 3: that the act of forgiving makes you this kind of

1079
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:03,400
Speaker 3: transcendent human. Oh, you've forgiven. Wow, okay, so life is

1080
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 3: good now because you've been able to forgive, And it's like,

1081
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:08,720
Speaker 3: it's horseshit. That's not how we live carry around trauma,

1082
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:11,360
Speaker 3: We carry around anger, We carry around the ability to

1083
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,319
Speaker 3: be triggered by people who abused us. It's not even

1084
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:17,120
Speaker 3: something they or we control, because ibuse already happened and

1085
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 3: all the machineries in there, so we have that. You

1086
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 3: can say I forgive you, it doesn't mean that they

1087
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:25,759
Speaker 3: can't hurt you still by reigniting that same trauma and

1088
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:28,880
Speaker 3: bringing it back to the fore again and again and again. Also,

1089
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:30,960
Speaker 3: you can say, do I blame them? I don't know.

1090
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:33,279
Speaker 3: It doesn't really matter because it doesn't matter if it's

1091
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:36,439
Speaker 3: their fault or not. It is we obsess over whether

1092
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:38,799
Speaker 3: people have forgiven, should be forgiven or not. And really

1093
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 3: it's the question, isn't that both forgiveness and blame are

1094
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 3: the wrong questions? Here's the only question. How do I

1095
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:47,279
Speaker 3: live with this now? Are with this now? How do

1096
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:49,920
Speaker 3: I become a person in the world that can handle

1097
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 3: this heavy burden of this trauma that I inherited or

1098
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:56,520
Speaker 3: that I have, And how can I have successful relationships

1099
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 3: and be a good partner in my case, be a

1100
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:00,800
Speaker 3: good husband, or be a good father to my children.

1101
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 3: And you know these are the important questions. And forgiveness

1102
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:08,200
Speaker 3: and blame. Okay, sure, that's like academic Almost more important

1103
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:10,440
Speaker 3: question is how do I now be the person I

1104
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:14,400
Speaker 3: want to be? Every time someone says have you forgiven?

1105
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:16,399
Speaker 3: I feel that's the question you really should be asking.

1106
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 3: How are you relating now to the people in your world?

1107
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 3: And have you been able to figure out how to

1108
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 3: be the person you want to be?

1109
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 2: Have you?

1110
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 3: Sometimes? Yeah? Depends when you catch me. I try. I'm

1111
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 3: trying to. It's sort of what the book wrestles with

1112
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:36,920
Speaker 3: in the last chapter. The last like three four chapters

1113
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:40,719
Speaker 3: are about therapy and about trying to grow and very

1114
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 3: very slowly over many years five years I think twice

1115
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 3: a week, five years on the couch talking about mom

1116
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:51,480
Speaker 3: other things among other topics.

1117
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 2: Are there any other topics?

1118
00:50:54,440 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 3: Yeah? That's right? Wow, And that's learning that the sort

1119
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 3: of the engine of reflection is extremely important on slowly

1120
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 3: learning that half the battle is just being far enough

1121
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:09,759
Speaker 3: away to look at it and then looking at it

1122
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 3: and then starting to make decisions. And I would say

1123
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 3: I'm a happier and different person than I was, and

1124
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:16,479
Speaker 3: that there was a moment in my life at about

1125
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:20,280
Speaker 3: thirty five where I was like, I need to change,

1126
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:22,840
Speaker 3: like this is not And in my life from the

1127
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 3: outside was going pretty well. I had a successful band,

1128
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 3: and had already been a columnist and like all things considered,

1129
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:30,759
Speaker 3: and had published stories and been a successful journal and

1130
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:33,399
Speaker 3: so from all these exterior things, but my relationships were

1131
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:36,800
Speaker 3: fucking mess and I was a mess of a boyfriend.

1132
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 3: I had a girlfriend say, you always say you want

1133
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:40,720
Speaker 3: to be a husband and father. Well, guess what, dipshit,

1134
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 3: You're not going to become a good husband and father

1135
00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:45,799
Speaker 3: until you learn and be a good fucking boyfriend. That's

1136
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:46,440
Speaker 3: a lot of truth.

1137
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 2: Well the truth of her breakfast bab.

1138
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, got respect, honest.

1139
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 2: What do you think is a healthy relationship with healing

1140
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 2: and AA and all of those things.

1141
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:04,759
Speaker 3: So I've seen AA do work wonders in people's lives,

1142
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:07,759
Speaker 3: or at least be a really solid place. My stepdad

1143
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 3: got mostly sober for a while in AA, and I

1144
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:13,360
Speaker 3: grew up going to a camp outs and going to

1145
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 3: alan on meetings with my mom, which if you want

1146
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:17,879
Speaker 3: to be a writer, you can do a lot worse

1147
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:21,240
Speaker 3: than sitting around listening drunks talk about the kids heard

1148
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 3: in the stories, the times they flip the truck over. Yeah,

1149
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 3: Like if this is great Chris for the mill, if

1150
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 3: you're like, oh, I'm too young to know all this stuff.

1151
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:32,839
Speaker 3: This is this going to change me in some way? Yes, yes,

1152
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:35,200
Speaker 3: it'll make you a better writer and also grow up

1153
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 3: too fast and it's gonna do a lot of things,

1154
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:41,160
Speaker 3: but it will help the writer. So I just heard endless.

1155
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 3: By the time I was eight, I'd heard a thousand

1156
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:46,680
Speaker 3: my life is ending because of drug stories and that

1157
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:49,280
Speaker 3: was my father's story, and that was my stepfather's story.

1158
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:51,680
Speaker 3: And I've been to Alatine. I was going to Alatine

1159
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:53,400
Speaker 3: when I was like eight years old and I was

1160
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 3: just and they were like, have you given your life

1161
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:57,279
Speaker 3: over to the higher And You're like, I don't know.

1162
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:01,600
Speaker 3: I just want like a bagel and there's I heard

1163
00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:04,680
Speaker 3: there was bagels, like after the meeting, and my mom's

1164
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:06,879
Speaker 3: at the Alani meeting, so I came here because there's

1165
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:09,320
Speaker 3: bagels or they're bagels, yeah, you know. And they're like,

1166
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:15,319
Speaker 3: are you practicing the Eleventh Step? And I'm like, it's

1167
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:18,000
Speaker 3: like so young to be dealing with these like super

1168
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:21,319
Speaker 3: mutual topics, you know what I mean. Yeah, And then

1169
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:24,920
Speaker 3: my brother got clean and then has stayed clean fourteen

1170
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:28,719
Speaker 3: years sober now due to the program. So I've seen

1171
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:31,640
Speaker 3: it do some some real good. I really wanted to

1172
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:33,719
Speaker 3: bring the program to life as I understood as a

1173
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:35,480
Speaker 3: child in the book. It was like really important to

1174
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 3: me because I haven't read not a lot of books.

1175
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:41,120
Speaker 3: I think Mary Carr deals with some stuff in her

1176
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 3: second and third book about the program, but the culture

1177
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 3: of AA, I find it was just a big part

1178
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:50,000
Speaker 3: of our lives, and so I wanted to bring to life,

1179
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:52,680
Speaker 3: particularly these campouts, these moments when we were like little

1180
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:54,840
Speaker 3: kids and we'd have these it would be like twenty

1181
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:57,600
Speaker 3: families would go camp out and then you'd sit around

1182
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:00,279
Speaker 3: this huge fire and you'd listen to forty want to

1183
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:03,360
Speaker 3: tell their stories. And it was great. It was awesome.

1184
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:08,279
Speaker 3: It was like I missed those times. They were great storytellers,

1185
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:10,439
Speaker 3: and it was a warm it was a warm little moment.

1186
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:12,840
Speaker 3: And compared to sen and on, and compared to my

1187
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:15,400
Speaker 3: second step dad who wasn't in the program and U

1188
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:17,359
Speaker 3: was an abusive prick, and then my first step dad

1189
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:19,319
Speaker 3: who ended up dying, Like all these things were way

1190
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:21,200
Speaker 3: harder than the program, And for me it was like, oh,

1191
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:23,160
Speaker 3: I got to listen to these guys tell great stories.

1192
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 3: I'm probably too young to hear them, but that's probably

1193
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:26,719
Speaker 3: why I want to hear them. And afterwards you get

1194
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:27,160
Speaker 3: a bagel.

1195
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:32,399
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, cool, I mean, I it's always that fine line, right,

1196
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:35,920
Speaker 1: because I feel like this is totally not based on

1197
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:39,680
Speaker 1: anything academic that I've read, but my understanding of a

1198
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:43,120
Speaker 1: that is that a big one of the primary things

1199
00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 1: that's at play is just community and having people to

1200
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:50,360
Speaker 1: answer to and people to talk to when you're struggling,

1201
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:53,360
Speaker 1: and so much of healing is about that, is about

1202
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:57,160
Speaker 1: finding a community, and community, as we know, can so

1203
00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:01,160
Speaker 1: quickly turn sour and so quickly group dynamics come into

1204
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:03,800
Speaker 1: play and suddenly there's a group thinking, Suddenly there's jargon,

1205
00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:07,719
Speaker 1: and suddenly there's a hierarchy, and like, yeah, navigating that

1206
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:09,319
Speaker 1: I think is just one of the trickiest things of

1207
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:10,240
Speaker 1: being alive because.

1208
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:12,399
Speaker 5: We need that community, We need that Yeah.

1209
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:14,120
Speaker 2: Just it felt a little bit like your mom was

1210
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:19,240
Speaker 2: like intellectually dealing with stuff, but just not in the moment.

1211
00:55:19,560 --> 00:55:22,440
Speaker 2: You know, She's like, you're crying, and she's like, I'm

1212
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:24,480
Speaker 2: gonna go read a book on child psychology, and you're like,

1213
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:27,440
Speaker 2: can you just talk to me? And I feel like

1214
00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:30,880
Speaker 2: that exists in that world a little bit. So I

1215
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:33,360
Speaker 2: think it exists a little bit. And just there's a

1216
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 2: point in the book where you say, it's like, people,

1217
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:37,920
Speaker 2: if you build the ladder to the moon, you're not

1218
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:39,920
Speaker 2: going to ask how you built it. You're just going

1219
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 2: to go to the moon. And I feel a little

1220
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:44,959
Speaker 2: bit like, you know, nobody knows what's working what's not working,

1221
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:46,319
Speaker 2: but you just have to do it all and you

1222
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:48,680
Speaker 2: have to follow it and if you don't, you're a

1223
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:51,160
Speaker 2: dumb bitch. And it's like I can't do that because

1224
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:53,359
Speaker 2: I've already was in a call. I just can't do it.

1225
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:55,360
Speaker 2: So then it's like, well then you'll never be recovered.

1226
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 2: You're losing out. And then I'm just like I'm not

1227
00:55:57,640 --> 00:55:58,800
Speaker 2: I can't do that anymore.

1228
00:55:58,920 --> 00:55:59,080
Speaker 3: Right.

1229
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:02,239
Speaker 1: That's to black and white too, yeah, and that that

1230
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 1: version of black and white thinking can be very helpful

1231
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:07,160
Speaker 1: and totally harmless for a lot of people.

1232
00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:08,719
Speaker 5: But I understand why.

1233
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:11,680
Speaker 1: It would kind of Yeah, yeah, hit the triggers.

1234
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:12,680
Speaker 2: It's a little deep.

1235
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:15,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's your experience. Then hearing those words.

1236
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:18,080
Speaker 2: Is probably like, yeah, no, I can't can't do it.

1237
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:19,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I understand that. Yeah.

1238
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:20,600
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1239
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 1: Well the good news is there are like eleven other

1240
00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:25,919
Speaker 1: things that supposedly work have a higher success rate than.

1241
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:27,759
Speaker 2: There's so many things. I mean, I think your book

1242
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 2: also on it. I'm on the right now. No, I'm

1243
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:40,440
Speaker 2: just gonna say the book is also kind of like

1244
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:43,560
Speaker 2: it like men and women, you know, like I'm with

1245
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:45,560
Speaker 2: the men now, I'm with the women now, and what's

1246
00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:47,839
Speaker 2: different about those two things? And there's just so many

1247
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:49,960
Speaker 2: things that come into play. What do you mean, like

1248
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:53,359
Speaker 2: he like he's at some parts with his mom and

1249
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:57,160
Speaker 2: the women. And it's also like it seems like men

1250
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 2: are a different country, a different universe. Oh interesting, you know,

1251
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 2: And so it's just so many different fields of cultiness

1252
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:10,640
Speaker 2: we're coming together in your life that it's very fascinating.

1253
00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 3: But the men women thing. By the time we were

1254
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 3: in Oregon before she met my first stepdad, she would

1255
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:18,800
Speaker 3: go on dates sometimes and there was always there was

1256
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:21,200
Speaker 3: so much riding on it and you just knew it

1257
00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:24,680
Speaker 3: and like why I'd like ride hard for single moms

1258
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:27,200
Speaker 3: like I to this and I have a difficult relationship

1259
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:29,480
Speaker 3: with my mom because she was anarcsist and she was

1260
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:33,240
Speaker 3: abusive in her way. Setting that aside, like I don't

1261
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 3: I don't know anyone who was raised by a single

1262
00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:37,240
Speaker 3: mom who doesn't ride hard for single moms, where you're

1263
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:39,840
Speaker 3: just like, she's gone through a lot. There's a lot,

1264
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:43,720
Speaker 3: and you better be nice to her. Like that's the feeling,

1265
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:46,000
Speaker 3: Like even now if I had like a friend that's like, oh,

1266
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:50,840
Speaker 3: I'm going on this date and she's a mom and

1267
00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:53,400
Speaker 3: because you sense that, and then there's this weird sort

1268
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:56,480
Speaker 3: of like hall of mirrors where it's like, wait, I'm

1269
00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:58,440
Speaker 3: going to be one of those, And then it's like

1270
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:00,720
Speaker 3: the immediate next question is, well, which am I going

1271
00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:03,000
Speaker 3: to be? Am I gonna be one of the good ones? Well,

1272
00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:04,720
Speaker 3: I'm being told every day my dad was one of

1273
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:06,560
Speaker 3: the bad ones, because we were told constantly that my

1274
00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:09,360
Speaker 3: dad left us for a tramp, which I later understood

1275
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:12,160
Speaker 3: to mean my dad got divorced from a woman. He

1276
00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:16,280
Speaker 3: was a depressive narcissist right and did so very politely

1277
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:19,840
Speaker 3: and wanted split custody and was a very involved father

1278
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:22,479
Speaker 3: as soon as you could be like it was just live.

1279
00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:25,160
Speaker 3: It just wasn't true, and so I was being told

1280
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:26,680
Speaker 3: my dad was one of the bad ones. And of

1281
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:28,520
Speaker 3: course then we wanted to be like our dad. So

1282
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:30,200
Speaker 3: in our heads we were like, well, we're going to

1283
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:32,680
Speaker 3: be the bad ones. But then at the same time,

1284
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:36,320
Speaker 3: we felt protective of her in this one way because

1285
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:38,120
Speaker 3: we sort of knew how much it meant to her.

1286
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:40,920
Speaker 3: And we wanted the things that men could offer. We

1287
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:44,120
Speaker 3: wanted to feel safe in a society where men are

1288
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:46,160
Speaker 3: bigger than women and who could break into our house

1289
00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:49,200
Speaker 3: any given night. We wanted another income, and we wanted

1290
00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:51,840
Speaker 3: someone who could fix the sinker, like these are things

1291
00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 3: we didn't have either, and we didn't And there's this

1292
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:56,840
Speaker 3: feeling like you're the man of the house at like seven,

1293
00:58:58,000 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 3: and people will say that to you, well, aren't you

1294
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:02,560
Speaker 3: man in the house now, and it's like you say yes,

1295
00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:06,120
Speaker 3: but you're I mean, you're a fucking scared, shitless kid,

1296
00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:09,439
Speaker 3: And so you feel this. There's just all of these

1297
00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:12,560
Speaker 3: issues around it where you're and then so you can't

1298
00:59:12,560 --> 00:59:14,200
Speaker 3: help but carry them with you as you get older

1299
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:16,680
Speaker 3: and you become someone who's going to go on dates

1300
00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:18,880
Speaker 3: and you start to like, well, am I am I

1301
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:20,840
Speaker 3: being a good man. Am I a bad man? Am

1302
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:23,080
Speaker 3: I being the right kind of man? And I spent

1303
00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:25,840
Speaker 3: a lot of years spending I thought probably too much

1304
00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:28,320
Speaker 3: about those questions when I might have maybe a better

1305
00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:29,840
Speaker 3: question would have been did I have fun on that

1306
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:34,240
Speaker 3: date right right? That I like this person so much

1307
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:36,400
Speaker 3: that I would want to go out again or whatever? Like?

1308
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:38,920
Speaker 3: And instead I would spend all this time thinking about

1309
00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:41,800
Speaker 3: these other questions and I and and some of that

1310
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:43,720
Speaker 3: was good and some of it was not good. But

1311
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:46,520
Speaker 3: mostly as a writer, again, it's a lot of Christopher Mill.

1312
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:49,080
Speaker 3: You know, there's worse things that can happen to you

1313
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:51,640
Speaker 3: if you want to be a writer, then having a

1314
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:54,200
Speaker 3: single mother, because you're just you're dealing with the drama

1315
00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:56,160
Speaker 3: but every day and you're up close with this this

1316
00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:59,520
Speaker 3: heavily weighty, weighty situations.

1317
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:03,120
Speaker 1: Going back in time, tiny bit like your mom when

1318
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:06,880
Speaker 1: she picked you up, you didn't know her, and suddenly

1319
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:09,440
Speaker 1: you had to kind of be like, oh, yes, okay, mother,

1320
01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:11,480
Speaker 1: yes this is my family, Like.

1321
01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:12,480
Speaker 5: What what was that like?

1322
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:18,040
Speaker 3: It was It was definitely jarring. It was like play acting.

1323
01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:21,600
Speaker 3: It was sort of like, oh your mom, okay, all right,

1324
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:23,640
Speaker 3: so what does that mean? And then you start and

1325
01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:26,560
Speaker 3: she would tell us very specifically what it meant and

1326
01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:28,240
Speaker 3: how we were supposed to listen to her. And she

1327
01:00:28,360 --> 01:00:30,720
Speaker 3: was the person who took care of us, and you know,

1328
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:34,160
Speaker 3: like a good intellectual, she'd probably read a book about

1329
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:37,200
Speaker 3: it and would you know, saying the things from the book.

1330
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:42,200
Speaker 3: And then meanwhile, like a terrible parent, no, just very

1331
01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:45,360
Speaker 3: little empathy and very little protection. And we didn't have

1332
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:47,400
Speaker 3: food half the time, and we didn't have heat in

1333
01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:50,880
Speaker 3: the house a lot of the time. And she would

1334
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:54,960
Speaker 3: gone a lot at meetings to get better, but then

1335
01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:59,520
Speaker 3: we'd just be home alone a lot, like a lot.

1336
01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:03,920
Speaker 3: So that sort of intellectualizing of what a mother is

1337
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:07,400
Speaker 3: took me a long time to really just sort of

1338
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:10,400
Speaker 3: like personally understanding. And you know, the woman Bonnie who

1339
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:12,680
Speaker 3: took care of me and that in the cult was

1340
01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:15,040
Speaker 3: like my deity person. We had this like really strong bond.

1341
01:01:15,080 --> 01:01:18,160
Speaker 3: She actually ended up with my dad years later and

1342
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:23,760
Speaker 3: became happy incredible force for good in my life because

1343
01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:27,840
Speaker 3: she was extremely warm, and she was extremely caring and

1344
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:31,720
Speaker 3: doting and supportive and just a light in the world

1345
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:36,360
Speaker 3: and just you know, and it wasn't and I was

1346
01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:39,160
Speaker 3: always told that's not a mom by my own mom.

1347
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:41,120
Speaker 3: A mom is what I am, And of course now

1348
01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:46,640
Speaker 3: like fucking bullshit, that's a mother's love and I you know,

1349
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:48,160
Speaker 3: and I see it now with my wife and how

1350
01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:51,800
Speaker 3: she is with our children, and you know, it makes me,

1351
01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:54,880
Speaker 3: like I think my brother, I had a maybe almost

1352
01:01:54,880 --> 01:01:58,200
Speaker 3: an antagonistic sense of what a mother is. A mother's

1353
01:01:58,240 --> 01:02:00,200
Speaker 3: this person that controls you and tells you what to

1354
01:02:00,240 --> 01:02:02,040
Speaker 3: tell what to tell other people about what a mother is.

1355
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:06,240
Speaker 3: That's what it was, yeah, right, And then you know,

1356
01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:09,480
Speaker 3: being you know, raised by Bonnie later and then of

1357
01:02:09,480 --> 01:02:14,240
Speaker 3: course witnessing up close my wife with our children, you know,

1358
01:02:14,560 --> 01:02:16,800
Speaker 3: you see the power of what a mother can be.

1359
01:02:17,080 --> 01:02:19,200
Speaker 1: I mean you said you struggled with relationships till you

1360
01:02:19,240 --> 01:02:21,200
Speaker 1: had sort of a breakthrough when you were in your

1361
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:23,360
Speaker 1: mid thirties. But did you find that it was difficult

1362
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:25,480
Speaker 1: to connect with women because of this?

1363
01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:32,120
Speaker 3: Really? Oh, I think I had trouble being honest about

1364
01:02:32,160 --> 01:02:35,840
Speaker 3: who I was and not in like this malicious sense,

1365
01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:39,880
Speaker 3: like I had long term girlfriends almost exclusively. I think

1366
01:02:39,920 --> 01:02:41,720
Speaker 3: my friends thought of me as a serial monogamist. I

1367
01:02:41,720 --> 01:02:44,320
Speaker 3: think I was called that a lot. But I always

1368
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:47,240
Speaker 3: had one foot out the door. I was always terrified

1369
01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:50,360
Speaker 3: of actually saying what I thought. I felt like there

1370
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:53,560
Speaker 3: was a script I had to follow. I was unfaithful

1371
01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:56,760
Speaker 3: to some exes, just like a laundry list of and

1372
01:02:56,800 --> 01:02:58,640
Speaker 3: but like would always come on a break, Oh we

1373
01:02:58,640 --> 01:03:00,840
Speaker 3: were on a break or whatever. Just kind of a

1374
01:03:00,880 --> 01:03:03,920
Speaker 3: shitty boyfriend. I mean, you can talk about it, like

1375
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:06,680
Speaker 3: if we were in a psychologist chair, I would sort

1376
01:03:06,680 --> 01:03:08,200
Speaker 3: of probably, I can tell you, like, what are the

1377
01:03:08,240 --> 01:03:09,840
Speaker 3: reasons in the trump? But I was just like not

1378
01:03:09,960 --> 01:03:12,800
Speaker 3: good at it, and I wasn't. But what I was

1379
01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:16,400
Speaker 3: struggling with, I think at the time was all the

1380
01:03:16,440 --> 01:03:21,440
Speaker 3: owners of trauma and an inability to kind of not

1381
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:23,560
Speaker 3: wear a mask at all times and trying to like

1382
01:03:24,320 --> 01:03:27,000
Speaker 3: create an impression. But I was really good at creating

1383
01:03:27,040 --> 01:03:30,640
Speaker 3: an impression. So I think the hard part I had

1384
01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:33,240
Speaker 3: was not creating an impression. The hard part for me

1385
01:03:33,480 --> 01:03:37,680
Speaker 3: was actually saying how I felt and what I wanted

1386
01:03:37,720 --> 01:03:41,800
Speaker 3: and committing in a real in a real way. And

1387
01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:45,320
Speaker 3: it took a lot of years to sort of unlearn

1388
01:03:45,560 --> 01:03:49,400
Speaker 3: and reflect and change. I mean, then there were long

1389
01:03:49,440 --> 01:03:51,480
Speaker 3: and uncomfortable years. And that's one of the things I

1390
01:03:51,520 --> 01:03:54,120
Speaker 3: write about in the book. I was trying something today

1391
01:03:54,160 --> 01:03:56,560
Speaker 3: for something for the paperback release, and I was talking

1392
01:03:56,560 --> 01:03:59,320
Speaker 3: about like how like some of the memoirs you read,

1393
01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:01,400
Speaker 3: and it's just like I went through all this trauma

1394
01:04:01,400 --> 01:04:03,520
Speaker 3: and there's just like three hundred pages about mountains of

1395
01:04:03,560 --> 01:04:05,920
Speaker 3: trauma and then there's like one paragraph and now everything's

1396
01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:07,360
Speaker 3: great and you're like, my.

1397
01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:12,920
Speaker 7: Ass, Yeah, And I wanted to write about like the

1398
01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:17,320
Speaker 7: very slow, arduous, uncomfortable process of looking at myself and

1399
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:21,280
Speaker 7: not actually particularly liking what I saw and trying.

1400
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:23,240
Speaker 3: Because I had thirty five, I'd had this breakdown. We

1401
01:04:23,240 --> 01:04:25,040
Speaker 3: were on tour in Europe and I had just break

1402
01:04:25,080 --> 01:04:27,920
Speaker 3: down on Amsterdam. I had like a weed brownie, do

1403
01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:31,200
Speaker 3: it right, and I got really high, but so I

1404
01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:33,000
Speaker 3: didn't get high immediately, and so I was like, oh,

1405
01:04:33,080 --> 01:04:33,760
Speaker 3: this isn't working.

1406
01:04:33,760 --> 01:04:36,920
Speaker 1: So I had another classic tale, the classic tale that

1407
01:04:37,080 --> 01:04:37,720
Speaker 1: was all this time.

1408
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:44,080
Speaker 3: So I went to the hotel room and I had

1409
01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:46,760
Speaker 3: a total breakdown. I saw myself as this like awful

1410
01:04:46,840 --> 01:04:51,080
Speaker 3: person who was dishonest with the woman I was dating

1411
01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:53,760
Speaker 3: at the time and also just dishonest with myself and

1412
01:04:53,840 --> 01:04:55,360
Speaker 3: just doing all this crappy shit, and it was this

1413
01:04:55,400 --> 01:04:57,320
Speaker 3: horrible and it was really harsh. It was like ten

1414
01:04:57,360 --> 01:04:59,600
Speaker 3: hours of this wow but there was a real sort

1415
01:04:59,600 --> 01:05:02,240
Speaker 3: of nugget of truth that I wanted. It was a

1416
01:05:02,240 --> 01:05:04,640
Speaker 3: really sort of childish wish at the bottom of it,

1417
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:07,840
Speaker 3: which was I just wanted my closest space around my

1418
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:10,600
Speaker 3: heart to be love. I wanted it to be the

1419
01:05:10,640 --> 01:05:13,560
Speaker 3: thing that brought closest to me was something that I

1420
01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:18,919
Speaker 3: actually found very very precious and found and that would

1421
01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:21,680
Speaker 3: be the thing that I led into my life. And

1422
01:05:21,720 --> 01:05:24,720
Speaker 3: I realized I couldn't do that. I couldn't make that

1423
01:05:24,840 --> 01:05:27,760
Speaker 3: choice because I was so interested in like, Okay, I'm

1424
01:05:27,800 --> 01:05:30,520
Speaker 3: going to date this girl. Okay, it's not working because

1425
01:05:30,560 --> 01:05:33,680
Speaker 3: I fucked it up probably or I chose the wrong one,

1426
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:38,120
Speaker 3: or you know, one of many different things and make

1427
01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:40,520
Speaker 3: another shitty choice, and then eventually that's just all there is.

1428
01:05:40,520 --> 01:05:42,360
Speaker 3: And I was like no, And I knew, ID always

1429
01:05:42,400 --> 01:05:45,800
Speaker 3: knew I'd wanted children, and so I just was like, dude,

1430
01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:48,160
Speaker 3: you got to change. Like I had to talk with myself.

1431
01:05:48,200 --> 01:05:50,680
Speaker 3: I was like, man, this is this is just going

1432
01:05:50,720 --> 01:05:53,480
Speaker 3: to be your life unless you figure out how to change.

1433
01:05:53,520 --> 01:05:55,800
Speaker 3: And some of it was like the rock band thing.

1434
01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:58,000
Speaker 3: You know, it's like you're on the road, you're married

1435
01:05:58,040 --> 01:06:01,200
Speaker 3: to the road. There's this like petic idea that like

1436
01:06:01,320 --> 01:06:01,960
Speaker 3: rock and roll is.

1437
01:06:01,960 --> 01:06:03,640
Speaker 5: Going to save you.

1438
01:06:03,640 --> 01:06:07,320
Speaker 3: Hear that line, rock and roll save this fucking show.

1439
01:06:07,600 --> 01:06:09,600
Speaker 3: It doesn't save you. It's just a night you put

1440
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:10,800
Speaker 3: on a good show. You got to go home with

1441
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:13,360
Speaker 3: yourself and go to bed that night and figure out

1442
01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:15,880
Speaker 3: who you are the next day. And it's romantic, but

1443
01:06:15,920 --> 01:06:16,840
Speaker 3: it's not really true.

1444
01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:17,840
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1445
01:06:17,880 --> 01:06:20,240
Speaker 3: So I got home from that tour and I found

1446
01:06:20,240 --> 01:06:23,200
Speaker 3: a shrink through a friend, and I went to his

1447
01:06:23,320 --> 01:06:27,160
Speaker 3: office and he said, well, so why are you here?

1448
01:06:27,640 --> 01:06:31,280
Speaker 3: And I said, I always remember this. I said, I

1449
01:06:31,360 --> 01:06:32,640
Speaker 3: want to be able to fall in love.

1450
01:06:33,280 --> 01:06:36,720
Speaker 2: M m mm hmm oh.

1451
01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:40,840
Speaker 3: And so he was like, well, let's start there five

1452
01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:46,120
Speaker 3: years later with a lot of work.

1453
01:06:46,200 --> 01:06:48,800
Speaker 2: And it's interesting, like when in the book you what

1454
01:06:48,840 --> 01:06:49,600
Speaker 2: were you going to say?

1455
01:06:49,920 --> 01:06:52,280
Speaker 5: No? Nothing, Are you sure? I'm just going to given.

1456
01:06:52,080 --> 01:06:54,959
Speaker 1: Props for doing the hard So a few people do.

1457
01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:59,040
Speaker 2: It, especially many. It's true in the book you talk

1458
01:06:59,080 --> 01:07:01,520
Speaker 2: a lot about like men touching you in your heart

1459
01:07:01,720 --> 01:07:05,440
Speaker 2: just kind of opening, or like you feeling this expanding

1460
01:07:05,480 --> 01:07:07,560
Speaker 2: in your chest, which really made me cry a lot

1461
01:07:07,560 --> 01:07:09,439
Speaker 2: because it's how my boyfriend makes me feel a little

1462
01:07:10,160 --> 01:07:11,480
Speaker 2: I don't know, but anyway.

1463
01:07:11,320 --> 01:07:13,800
Speaker 3: It's just cool that you like got.

1464
01:07:13,520 --> 01:07:17,440
Speaker 2: That from yourself and then were able to meet someone.

1465
01:07:18,680 --> 01:07:21,080
Speaker 3: I think some of it was finding some peace in

1466
01:07:21,120 --> 01:07:23,480
Speaker 3: my own head and putting to rest some of the

1467
01:07:23,520 --> 01:07:25,840
Speaker 3: grief and the trauma that I carried around. I didn't

1468
01:07:25,840 --> 01:07:28,560
Speaker 3: even know it was carrying around, and like things I

1469
01:07:28,600 --> 01:07:30,480
Speaker 3: hadn't even thought about for years. I was like, oh, yeah,

1470
01:07:30,560 --> 01:07:33,880
Speaker 3: like I totally died, shit, how do I feel about that?

1471
01:07:34,160 --> 01:07:36,840
Speaker 3: And then like crying for a week's strength, like, oh,

1472
01:07:36,880 --> 01:07:39,400
Speaker 3: because I feel pretty strongly about it. Never acknowledged it.

1473
01:07:39,400 --> 01:07:42,000
Speaker 3: There was so much unacknowledged grief. Yeah, that was part

1474
01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:46,480
Speaker 3: of it. Part of it was learning that I was enough,

1475
01:07:47,200 --> 01:07:49,480
Speaker 3: Like I didn't like Some of this is like the

1476
01:07:49,520 --> 01:07:52,800
Speaker 3: performance aspect of being a child of a narcissist. So

1477
01:07:52,800 --> 01:07:54,160
Speaker 3: one of the things that happens when you're a child

1478
01:07:54,160 --> 01:07:55,880
Speaker 3: of a narcissist is you feel your life's like a

1479
01:07:55,880 --> 01:07:58,240
Speaker 3: performance because you need to perform for the narciss because

1480
01:07:58,240 --> 01:08:01,840
Speaker 3: a narcist wants to know that you're attractive and successful,

1481
01:08:01,920 --> 01:08:05,520
Speaker 3: and they can then you know, look at you as

1482
01:08:05,560 --> 01:08:09,360
Speaker 3: being something that reflects well on them, and yeah, yeah,

1483
01:08:09,400 --> 01:08:13,440
Speaker 3: this is like classic you know, narcissistic kind of parenting. Strategies,

1484
01:08:13,440 --> 01:08:15,440
Speaker 3: and so you grew up feeling like your job is

1485
01:08:15,480 --> 01:08:18,080
Speaker 3: to perform and to impress, and so you know, there's

1486
01:08:18,120 --> 01:08:20,559
Speaker 3: no secret why a lot of people who have parents

1487
01:08:20,600 --> 01:08:23,599
Speaker 3: like that become actors or become musicians and performers because

1488
01:08:23,640 --> 01:08:27,519
Speaker 3: you perform all day long, right, become an excellent performer

1489
01:08:27,560 --> 01:08:29,240
Speaker 3: because you've never had a day or life you didn't

1490
01:08:29,280 --> 01:08:32,280
Speaker 3: perform all day. And so some of it was unpacking

1491
01:08:32,320 --> 01:08:34,640
Speaker 3: that and trying to like, what does it mean to

1492
01:08:34,680 --> 01:08:37,280
Speaker 3: not perform? What does it mean to actually just say

1493
01:08:37,320 --> 01:08:40,360
Speaker 3: what you're thinking and stick with your feelings and be

1494
01:08:40,479 --> 01:08:44,000
Speaker 3: with someone you want to be with and acknowledge that

1495
01:08:44,400 --> 01:08:47,320
Speaker 3: you know you feel good at this moment, as opposed to, oh,

1496
01:08:47,360 --> 01:08:50,479
Speaker 3: this person's got great status in some way or another,

1497
01:08:51,280 --> 01:08:53,599
Speaker 3: or reflects well on me in some way or another,

1498
01:08:53,840 --> 01:08:55,800
Speaker 3: or I should like this person, but to actually just

1499
01:08:55,840 --> 01:08:57,800
Speaker 3: like check in and be like, how do I feel

1500
01:08:57,840 --> 01:08:58,200
Speaker 3: right now?

1501
01:08:58,439 --> 01:08:58,679
Speaker 6: Yeah?

1502
01:08:58,920 --> 01:09:01,400
Speaker 3: Really at peace and good and warm. Okay, let's let's

1503
01:09:01,479 --> 01:09:04,120
Speaker 3: keep going with this person, and let's try to protect

1504
01:09:04,120 --> 01:09:05,639
Speaker 3: that like the precious thing that it is.

1505
01:09:06,280 --> 01:09:08,640
Speaker 1: I was not raised by narcissists by any stretch, but

1506
01:09:08,840 --> 01:09:11,360
Speaker 1: I definitely relate to that. And you ended up being

1507
01:09:11,479 --> 01:09:14,840
Speaker 1: quite the overachiever. I mean, you've you've done so much.

1508
01:09:15,120 --> 01:09:18,759
Speaker 1: You went to Stanford, right, a successful journalist, successful musician,

1509
01:09:18,880 --> 01:09:20,439
Speaker 1: now successful writer.

1510
01:09:20,840 --> 01:09:24,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, you're super stupid dancer.

1511
01:09:24,360 --> 01:09:26,560
Speaker 3: Bonnie my mom, Bonnie, she always has this joke. She's like,

1512
01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:28,120
Speaker 3: and you're so light on your feet and you're such

1513
01:09:28,120 --> 01:09:32,240
Speaker 3: a great whenever someone complimentary, Yes, and I'm light on

1514
01:09:32,280 --> 01:09:33,200
Speaker 3: my feet.

1515
01:09:34,160 --> 01:09:35,120
Speaker 2: I love Bonnie.

1516
01:09:35,200 --> 01:09:38,920
Speaker 3: I yeah, she's the best. I love Bonnie too. She's

1517
01:09:38,920 --> 01:09:44,400
Speaker 3: still with us. She talked to her yesterday. We see

1518
01:09:44,400 --> 01:09:47,080
Speaker 3: her every week a week, at least sometimes twice a week.

1519
01:09:47,200 --> 01:09:49,400
Speaker 3: Tell her she's just a light in the world. She's

1520
01:09:49,400 --> 01:09:52,200
Speaker 3: a wonderful, wonderful human being. And my brother and I

1521
01:09:52,240 --> 01:09:55,240
Speaker 3: always say thank God for Bonnie. She always cheered us

1522
01:09:55,320 --> 01:09:57,200
Speaker 3: like her own kids. I mean she started. I mean

1523
01:09:57,240 --> 01:09:58,880
Speaker 3: she raised me since time I was six months old.

1524
01:09:58,960 --> 01:10:00,240
Speaker 3: I guess if you want to count the time and

1525
01:10:00,280 --> 01:10:01,640
Speaker 3: send it on her. But then she's been with my

1526
01:10:01,720 --> 01:10:04,560
Speaker 3: dad since I was vibe. So we'd go visit in

1527
01:10:04,600 --> 01:10:07,320
Speaker 3: the summers and then Christmas is uh, while we were

1528
01:10:07,400 --> 01:10:11,200
Speaker 3: kids in Oregon, and then eventually we both moved to California,

1529
01:10:11,560 --> 01:10:13,559
Speaker 3: and so she's been with us our whole lives and

1530
01:10:13,600 --> 01:10:17,800
Speaker 3: she's she really is just a good, good, good human being.

1531
01:10:17,920 --> 01:10:20,640
Speaker 2: It's like a little soul mother and son relationship. They

1532
01:10:20,680 --> 01:10:22,200
Speaker 2: were magnets.

1533
01:10:22,280 --> 01:10:26,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, she's she's really a good, a good person.

1534
01:10:27,479 --> 01:10:29,439
Speaker 3: And also she would like love it if she was

1535
01:10:29,479 --> 01:10:31,080
Speaker 3: like if she was here right now, she would she

1536
01:10:31,120 --> 01:10:33,000
Speaker 3: would ask you all about your stories, and she'd have

1537
01:10:33,000 --> 01:10:35,240
Speaker 3: a little moment with you and she'd want to know

1538
01:10:35,320 --> 01:10:37,320
Speaker 3: more about you. And then she'd be like, well, how's

1539
01:10:37,360 --> 01:10:38,680
Speaker 3: it going with that boyfriend of you?

1540
01:10:39,400 --> 01:10:39,759
Speaker 5: Oh?

1541
01:10:39,800 --> 01:10:40,400
Speaker 2: I love her?

1542
01:10:40,520 --> 01:10:45,360
Speaker 3: And what's going on with and you like exchange emails

1543
01:10:45,360 --> 01:10:47,000
Speaker 3: and then she'd have you over for dinner and then

1544
01:10:47,040 --> 01:10:48,760
Speaker 3: the next thing, you know, you'd be sending you know,

1545
01:10:48,960 --> 01:10:52,639
Speaker 3: Christmas honk. Like trust me, she's like to see mothers

1546
01:10:52,640 --> 01:10:54,479
Speaker 3: every She would mother a frying pan. If there's a

1547
01:10:54,479 --> 01:10:56,680
Speaker 3: frying pan in the room, she'd be like, this frying pan.

1548
01:10:56,760 --> 01:10:57,639
Speaker 3: You know, I feel like it's.

1549
01:10:59,479 --> 01:11:00,840
Speaker 5: That's how my mom is. My mom.

1550
01:11:01,000 --> 01:11:04,000
Speaker 1: Basically Mother's an entire town of polygamists right now, so

1551
01:11:04,760 --> 01:11:06,720
Speaker 1: everybody goes to her for help.

1552
01:11:06,800 --> 01:11:09,639
Speaker 5: She's like a Bonnie. Thank God for Bonnie, for Bonnie's

1553
01:11:09,640 --> 01:11:12,479
Speaker 5: and Christine's. Well, I was just going to ask what's next?

1554
01:11:12,840 --> 01:11:16,360
Speaker 3: What's next? So we have a tour. I live on

1555
01:11:16,400 --> 01:11:19,080
Speaker 3: tour in a month. We're gone for like three months.

1556
01:11:19,080 --> 01:11:23,679
Speaker 3: This year paperback comes out, working on a new record,

1557
01:11:23,920 --> 01:11:27,240
Speaker 3: going to start work on another book this summer. I

1558
01:11:27,240 --> 01:11:31,120
Speaker 3: don't know had a daughter since the book. By the

1559
01:11:31,200 --> 01:11:33,000
Speaker 3: end of the book, you meet my son, and now

1560
01:11:33,040 --> 01:11:35,960
Speaker 3: we have a daughter as well. And she's just the

1561
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:37,080
Speaker 3: cutest little thing.

1562
01:11:39,680 --> 01:11:44,240
Speaker 1: Hollywood, park is your book? Also selfishly? Has anyone optioned

1563
01:11:44,240 --> 01:11:45,320
Speaker 1: this to be a movie?

1564
01:11:46,560 --> 01:11:48,400
Speaker 3: I don't think I'm allowed to talk about it, but

1565
01:11:49,600 --> 01:11:50,080
Speaker 3: it's something.

1566
01:11:50,160 --> 01:11:54,840
Speaker 1: Yes, Okay, well listen, if people are pitching as directors,

1567
01:11:55,160 --> 01:11:55,840
Speaker 1: just hit me up.

1568
01:11:55,840 --> 01:11:56,439
Speaker 5: It's all I'm saying.

1569
01:11:56,520 --> 01:11:59,639
Speaker 2: She don't have a director attached her hat, and it's

1570
01:11:59,680 --> 01:12:00,400
Speaker 2: a oh good.

1571
01:12:00,760 --> 01:12:03,960
Speaker 1: I connect with the story so much. Just yeah, listen,

1572
01:12:03,960 --> 01:12:04,759
Speaker 1: I'm a great director.

1573
01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:06,680
Speaker 5: Okay, you are, truly.

1574
01:12:06,640 --> 01:12:08,519
Speaker 2: Keep it in keep it in mind. I'll remind you.

1575
01:12:08,880 --> 01:12:12,200
Speaker 1: Okay, thank you so much. And where can people find

1576
01:12:12,240 --> 01:12:13,360
Speaker 1: you online?

1577
01:12:13,680 --> 01:12:18,799
Speaker 3: My Twitter, I guess is my online place. It's just Twitter.

1578
01:12:19,000 --> 01:12:22,000
Speaker 3: It's at mckel underscore LA or you can just googled

1579
01:12:22,120 --> 01:12:24,120
Speaker 3: me or the m I K E l j O

1580
01:12:24,320 --> 01:12:26,080
Speaker 3: l l E t T. But feel free to just

1581
01:12:26,120 --> 01:12:27,800
Speaker 3: go on with your life.

1582
01:12:28,120 --> 01:12:31,840
Speaker 1: Great Twitter presence though, highly recommend. Okay, if you're into

1583
01:12:31,840 --> 01:12:34,759
Speaker 1: political stuff, great, Okay, thank you so much for talking

1584
01:12:34,760 --> 01:12:35,000
Speaker 1: to us.

1585
01:12:35,080 --> 01:12:35,280
Speaker 3: Dude.

1586
01:12:35,280 --> 01:12:36,000
Speaker 5: This has been awesome.

1587
01:12:36,439 --> 01:12:38,080
Speaker 3: This was great. Thank you so much for having me.

1588
01:12:38,120 --> 01:12:39,719
Speaker 3: I really had a good time talking to you guys.

1589
01:12:40,200 --> 01:12:41,680
Speaker 5: Have a wonderful day.

1590
01:12:41,920 --> 01:12:42,320
Speaker 2: Thank you.

1591
01:12:42,479 --> 01:12:44,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, you two, best of luck with the podcast and everything.

1592
01:12:44,840 --> 01:12:49,800
Speaker 5: Okay, thank you, thank you. Bye. All right, so good,

1593
01:12:50,000 --> 01:12:53,479
Speaker 5: so good. We love him. So, Megan, what do you

1594
01:12:53,520 --> 01:12:55,720
Speaker 5: think send it on? Would this be one of the

1595
01:12:55,720 --> 01:12:56,559
Speaker 5: cults you would join?

1596
01:12:56,760 --> 01:12:58,679
Speaker 2: Well, sorry, I'm gonna hicc up.

1597
01:13:00,960 --> 01:13:01,680
Speaker 5: Please keep that.

1598
01:13:04,080 --> 01:13:08,960
Speaker 2: Okay. So, if I was addicted to heroin, I would

1599
01:13:09,120 --> 01:13:13,960
Speaker 2: definitely definitely go to that place for sure. That's the

1600
01:13:14,000 --> 01:13:16,799
Speaker 2: only option I think I would have at that point.

1601
01:13:17,200 --> 01:13:19,919
Speaker 2: So I can totally see how people who are addicted

1602
01:13:19,920 --> 01:13:23,240
Speaker 2: to drugs and trying to find a better life could

1603
01:13:23,280 --> 01:13:26,400
Speaker 2: get sucked into going there. And the whole I'm forgetting

1604
01:13:26,400 --> 01:13:28,559
Speaker 2: the leader's name, but his whole thing was like, dope,

1605
01:13:28,560 --> 01:13:32,880
Speaker 2: things never change. You're never gonna be a good person, really,

1606
01:13:33,400 --> 01:13:35,840
Speaker 2: so like let's raise your children as children of the

1607
01:13:35,920 --> 01:13:38,200
Speaker 2: universe and you just kind of get out of the way,

1608
01:13:38,280 --> 01:13:41,680
Speaker 2: which you know, that kind of thing really speaks to

1609
01:13:41,720 --> 01:13:44,479
Speaker 2: my low self esteem in many ways, so I could

1610
01:13:44,520 --> 01:13:46,439
Speaker 2: see myself getting real wrapped up.

1611
01:13:46,560 --> 01:13:48,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, well, it sounds like there was such

1612
01:13:48,160 --> 01:13:50,840
Speaker 1: a cultural respect yeah for the group at the time,

1613
01:13:51,160 --> 01:13:53,800
Speaker 1: and you know, especially without the Internet to like kind

1614
01:13:53,800 --> 01:13:54,840
Speaker 1: of dig in deeper.

1615
01:13:54,960 --> 01:13:55,880
Speaker 5: How how do you not know?

1616
01:13:55,920 --> 01:13:58,679
Speaker 1: Like people are genuinely getting sober and singing their praises

1617
01:13:58,720 --> 01:14:02,559
Speaker 1: and it's being mentioned and songs like, you know, I

1618
01:14:02,600 --> 01:14:08,080
Speaker 1: totally see that for someone who struggles with addiction. I

1619
01:14:08,120 --> 01:14:09,440
Speaker 1: can't say that it sounds.

1620
01:14:09,200 --> 01:14:13,000
Speaker 2: Like one that I would yet to heroin though. So

1621
01:14:13,640 --> 01:14:16,200
Speaker 2: if you have that and you maybe you would have

1622
01:14:16,360 --> 01:14:17,479
Speaker 2: maybe you would go right.

1623
01:14:17,640 --> 01:14:20,280
Speaker 1: Maybe if my like brother went and it was looking

1624
01:14:20,360 --> 01:14:23,240
Speaker 1: for him and I was like, let's build an ideal society,

1625
01:14:23,439 --> 01:14:24,439
Speaker 1: Like I could see that.

1626
01:14:24,680 --> 01:14:27,800
Speaker 2: Right, So you would be more Michel's mom who was

1627
01:14:28,040 --> 01:14:29,440
Speaker 2: kind of there for the society.

1628
01:14:29,560 --> 01:14:32,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, actually because she was like attending protests and

1629
01:14:32,640 --> 01:14:34,639
Speaker 1: like really trying to change the world.

1630
01:14:34,720 --> 01:14:36,439
Speaker 2: I wish that it wouldn't have turned bad.

1631
01:14:37,200 --> 01:14:40,519
Speaker 5: The words for the Ages man true of them all.

1632
01:14:40,800 --> 01:14:44,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, thank you guys so much for listening. We

1633
01:14:44,040 --> 01:14:47,479
Speaker 2: can't wait to see you next week. Until then remember

1634
01:14:47,520 --> 01:14:50,720
Speaker 2: to follow your gut, watch out for red flags.

1635
01:14:50,439 --> 01:14:56,120
Speaker 5: And never ever trust me. Later, Bib