1 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 2: US cuts to HIV funding has left the global response 3 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 2: to HIV in crisis. That's the Morning from the UNAIDS 4 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 2: Agency Executive Director Winni Bianima. 5 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 3: Clinics have closed, prevention services have halted, people are losing 6 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 3: access to life saving medicines. People are scared. 7 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:33,559 Speaker 2: Seventy five percent of people living with HIV are in Africa, 8 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 2: and many saw twenty twenty five as a chance for 9 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 2: a breakthrough year in tackling the disease, hopes that now 10 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 2: seem in tatters. 11 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:46,840 Speaker 3: A Republican government, President Bush came out at the time 12 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 3: of the worst crisis pandemic of the century and put 13 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 3: down a program to save lives right now. There are 14 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 3: tools that could make us come to the end of 15 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 3: this pandemic. I say to President Trump, you're a man 16 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 3: who likes to do a deal. Here's a deal. 17 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 2: On today's podcast, we're looking at the state of the 18 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 2: global HIV response in the wake of US funding cuts, 19 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:15,479 Speaker 2: and whether South Africa's leadership of the Global Fund will 20 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 2: find the donors needed to get the work moving again. 21 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 2: I'm Jennifer's Abasajob and this is the next Africa podcast 22 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 2: bringing you one story each week from the continent driving 23 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,400 Speaker 2: the future of global growth with the context only Bloomberg 24 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:37,680 Speaker 2: can provide. Well, here to help us break down that 25 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 2: really fascinating Bloomberg Weekend Interview. I'm joined by our healthcare 26 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 2: reporter here in Johannesburg, Jennis Q. Jennis, thanks so much 27 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:46,479 Speaker 2: for being with us. 28 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: Thank you. I wish that we would chat under happier circumstances. 29 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: We seem to always come in with pretty dire stories, 30 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: but they are important. 31 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's been actually quite a while since we've 32 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 2: had you on the podcast to speak about healthcare in 33 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 2: the region, So you know, let's talk about this latest 34 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 2: story we heard from Winnie b a Yuma, who painted 35 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 2: quite a bleak picture of the state of the global 36 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:14,079 Speaker 2: fight against HIV. Can you give us some context as 37 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,679 Speaker 2: to how serious things have gotten over the past few months. 38 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: In some African countries, it is dire where people aren't 39 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 1: able to get the anti retrovirals at all. In most cases, 40 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: these medications need to be taken daily, so disruption and 41 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: supply translates into a critical situation, not least because a 42 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: person that's newly infected with HIV is highly infectious, especially 43 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: during the first few weeks off to infection, there's acute phase. 44 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: The viral load or the amount of HIV in the 45 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: blood is very high, and so it significantly increases the 46 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: risk of transmission. For example, if a pregnant woman acquires 47 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 1: the disease or the virus, especially in your last trimester, 48 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: the chances of the child being born with HIV increases significantly. 49 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 1: And while made can be taken to keep it under control, 50 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: it is an incurable disease, so you can live long 51 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: with HIV if you've got the medication. But the point 52 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 1: is that a child who's born HIV positive has to 53 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: be on meds for life, and that has both physical 54 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:17,919 Speaker 1: and financial costs. 55 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 2: And when we think about the cuts and the cuts 56 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 2: to some of these services, how has that affected what 57 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 2: is already a dire situation in the region. 58 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: In many places, it's meant that clinic doors have been closed. 59 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: In South Africa, though, which is unlike many other countries 60 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: on the continents, the government provides the ravs, so in 61 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: some ways the impact has been a little less harsh here. 62 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: That's still not to say it isn't significance In South Africa. 63 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: Many of the NGOs have had to severely scale back. 64 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: I spoke with the national chairwoman of the Treatment Action Campaign, 65 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: a South African nonprofit that lost eighty eight percent of 66 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: its staff after the US funding was halted at the 67 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: end of February. She described how are their mobile clinics 68 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: and the work that they were doing specifically with sex 69 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: workers has effectively ended, and how with our regular drugs 70 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:12,119 Speaker 1: everything gets bad pretty quickly. Even in South Africa, it's 71 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: hard to cater for what we call key populations. These 72 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: are migrants, men who have sex with men, sex workers, 73 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: and drug users. And as Mitchell Warren, who is the 74 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 1: executive director of the New York based Global HIV Prevention 75 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: Advocacy Group AVAC, he says, you know, governments are not 76 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: great at dealing with some of these issues of sexuality 77 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,280 Speaker 1: and HIV AIDS programs don't have on off switches. They 78 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 1: take time, and those relationships take time, and it's easy 79 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: to break something down, but it's really hard to build 80 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:45,840 Speaker 1: something up. 81 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 2: And even prior to these cuts there, I mean, this 82 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 2: has been something that many health advocates for years had 83 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 2: tried to bring down at least the statistics for decades, 84 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 2: and you know, so that there had been plans to 85 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 2: hold HIV as a public health crisis by twenty thirty. 86 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 2: Was that within reach prior to these cuts? And I 87 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 2: wonder with some of the other advocates that you speak to, 88 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 2: do they think potentially we've pushed out the goalposts essentially 89 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 2: on achieving that even further. 90 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: Absolutely, a small amount of foreign aid means that plan 91 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: in the disease is a public cult threat by twenty 92 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: thirty is only going to get more off track, Willdn't 93 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: it be? A NEMO said as much in a recent 94 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: press conference here in South Africa, and it was going 95 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: to be a challenge twenty thirties only five years away, 96 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 1: but it definitely makes it a whole lot more challenging. 97 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 2: And Jennie, what does that look like on a day 98 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 2: to day basis You're somebody who's been covering this for 99 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:53,119 Speaker 2: quite some time. What is the current situation on the ground. 100 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:57,599 Speaker 1: So certainly here in South Africa we've got the government's 101 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 1: being resolute that it's not going to know these cuts, 102 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: aren't going to sync their HIV programs, and they are 103 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: taking steps to move files from that were at you know, 104 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: various clinics run by NGO's move them into the public 105 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: sector hospitals. But it's not an easy thing to do. 106 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 1: It's not a smooth transition. And then, as I was 107 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 1: talking about those key populations a little earlier, many of 108 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:25,599 Speaker 1: them are not likely to be able to go to 109 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 1: public clinics. They migrants need the correct paperwork to be 110 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 1: attended to. Sex workers. You know, if you've worked the 111 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: whole night and now you've got to line up and 112 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,840 Speaker 1: a queue at a public hospital before seven o'clock in 113 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: the morning, and you know that that's going to be challenging. 114 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:43,280 Speaker 1: But then there's also going to be a lot of 115 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:47,720 Speaker 1: staff training and how to treat people more sensitively. On 116 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: top of that, if you feel that you're going to 117 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 1: be questioned, your life choices are going to be questioned, 118 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: you're probably not going to be open and honest with 119 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: a healthcare provider, and that means that you're probably not 120 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: going to get targeted treatments and the correct kind of interventions. 121 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 1: In the rest of Africa, we've seen even worse situations 122 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: where because the Arabs are simply not available. We've even 123 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: had some impact in South Africa because of neighboring countries 124 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: that have shortages of the Arabs. Where a lot of 125 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: the action campaigns had spent years making sure that people 126 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: could gets six or more months supply of arabs at 127 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: a time. This was important because for many people to 128 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 1: not just the time out of their job or their 129 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: day to get the arabs, but it's the transport costs, etc. 130 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: And so we'd moved in South Africa to a situation 131 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 1: where people were able to get six months or more medication, 132 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: and that has been rolled back in South Africa because 133 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: of concerns that people will get the medication and then 134 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: set it over the border to people who desperate because 135 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: they just have no access at all. 136 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 2: And Janna is stick with us. When we come back, 137 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 2: we'll look at the efforts to try and find new 138 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 2: sources of funding, including the role that the South African 139 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 2: government will potentially be playing. We'll be right back. Welcome back. Today. 140 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 2: We're looking at the state of global efforts to tackle 141 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 2: HIV after the executive director of unaid's declared that it 142 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 2: was in crisis. Our healthcare reporter Janis q is still 143 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 2: with us now. Jana, so South African Presidents Zoo Ramaposa 144 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 2: has decided to take on the responsibility to try and 145 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 2: rebuild the global Fund to fight HIV. We were just 146 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 2: talking about some of the challenges though that this fight 147 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 2: already faces. How difficult of a task is he facing 148 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 2: though in terms of the funding our position. 149 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 1: From a POSA has a lot of respects globally and 150 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 1: is a very diplomatic man, but it is going to 151 00:08:56,679 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: be incredibly difficult. The Global Fund, which is an independent 152 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: partnership whose money mainly comes from public sector donors, plans 153 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: to raise at least eighteen billion dollars at IT as 154 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: it launches its twenty twenty six to twenty twenty eight 155 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 1: fundraising cycle, and success of the exercise will be crucial 156 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: for expanding efforts to combat HIV and TB and malaria. 157 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 1: But it fell short already in its most recent efforts 158 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,559 Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, and so you know, if 159 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: it was already falling short, then it makes it an 160 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: especially tall order. 161 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:34,079 Speaker 2: Now where can Ramaposa even look though for this funding? 162 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 2: If the US in fact is going to continue to 163 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 2: pull back on funding and contribute to aid, are there 164 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 2: other countries that are then stepping up and saying they 165 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 2: will contribute at least in regards to health and HIV 166 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 2: in the fight against it? 167 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: We have a very good relationship with China in South Africa, 168 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:57,839 Speaker 1: and there is a possibility that they could step in. 169 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 1: I would like to believe that presented in the right way, 170 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 1: it may be seen in the US as something that's 171 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: worth considering still, and then there is a chance of 172 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 1: other African governments perhaps stepping in somewhat or be it 173 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,079 Speaker 1: many have no regal room because there's also an urgent 174 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: need to restructure their debt to cut debt service costs. 175 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: Many African countries have debt service costs that are many 176 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: times larger than their entire healthcare budget, so that is 177 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 1: a real challenge. While not in the public sector, we've 178 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: seen the Gates Foundations say that it plans to give 179 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 1: away two hundred billion dollars over the next twenty years 180 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:40,680 Speaker 1: before shutting down entirely in twenty forty five, and that 181 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: target represents a doubling and spending for that nonprofit, and 182 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:46,199 Speaker 1: they have said that much of that will be focused 183 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: in Africa. So maybe even if it's not direct, there 184 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:53,559 Speaker 1: is there ripple effects from that that could could help 185 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: this as well. 186 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, and we've heard Bill Gates in particular be quite 187 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 2: outspoken and critical about some of these cuts that have 188 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:03,559 Speaker 2: been made in the US and how they're contributing potentially 189 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 2: could contribute to setbacks in progress on some of these 190 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 2: health fights, Jannis, When we think about some of the 191 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:15,079 Speaker 2: breakthroughs that we had, we talked about twenty thirty a 192 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 2: goal that we had wanted for HIV AIDS to no 193 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:22,199 Speaker 2: longer be a public health threat. Are there any treatments 194 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 2: or prevention that had previously been progressing potentially that could 195 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 2: still make some headway even throughout all of these turbulent times. 196 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 1: Absolutely. One of the concerns with these funding cuts, specifically 197 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,319 Speaker 1: in South Africa, is that it's going to hit research funding. 198 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: And South Africa has for decades been a medical research powerhouse, 199 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: and we're now hearing of HIV researchers having to tell 200 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: long time workers that the money's gone and so their 201 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: jobs and that's rough effect is going to be significant. 202 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 1: But that all being said, one of the areas where 203 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 1: there is still a lot of hope. We recently saw 204 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 1: an HIV prevention injection that's got one hundred percent efficacy 205 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 1: being improved by the FDA, So lenar Kapevera is twice 206 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: yearly injection, and that goal that twenty to thirty goal 207 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: that we were talking about earlier factored in this because 208 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 1: it's been in development for some time. The big issue 209 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: with this is that the US company that makes it 210 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: has set its price at about twenty five thousand US 211 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: dollars per person per year. Wow, and that is not 212 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: something that most of Africa could afford. When he was 213 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: talking about having spoken to researchers at Liverpool University that 214 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 1: said that they've estimated that this drug could be rolled 215 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: out at a cost of forty dollars per person per year, 216 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: and then within a year, as that market expanded for 217 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: the drug, that could come down to twenty five dollars 218 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: per per year. If that pricing issue could be resolved, 219 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 1: then a kapaya is genuinely a game changer. And we're 220 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:15,079 Speaker 1: talking about the closest thing to vaccine that we've got 221 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 1: for this disease. And if you are able to prevent 222 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: its spreading in the first place, those new infection numbers 223 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 1: are going to drop rapidly, etc. And that robber effect 224 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 1: is significant. So there is hope, but there's certainly a 225 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: lot of work to still be done. And you know, 226 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 1: while we look at the NGOs that have had to 227 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: cut staff there are a number of incredibly dedicated people, 228 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: aren't there, who even though they're not getting a salary, 229 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: are still going out and still working with communities where 230 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 1: they have built at trust and they are still doing 231 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 1: the work. And there is a lot of people who 232 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 1: it's personal for them and they do not want to 233 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: see these programs fail. And so I think that there 234 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: are definitely soil the lightnings. That's going to be a 235 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 1: tough job ahead. 236 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:08,839 Speaker 2: Jennis. Thank you so much for joining us and for 237 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 2: all of your reporting. As always, you can read all 238 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 2: of our coverage on HIV AIDS across Bloomberg platforms now, 239 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 2: including Michelle Hussein's interview with Winnie Biannima. Will post a 240 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 2: link to that in the show notes. This program was 241 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 2: produced by Adrian Bradley and tiwa Adebayo. Don't forget to 242 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 2: follow and review this show wherever you usually get your podcasts. 243 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 2: I'm Jennifer's Abasanja. Thanks as always for listening.