1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,920 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 3 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 2: is Robert Lamb. 4 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 3: And I am Joe McCormick. And today on Stuff to 5 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 3: Blow Your Mind, we are going to be talking about ice. Now. 6 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 3: This is relevant to us personally because down here in 7 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 3: Atlanta we have just come out of a long stretch 8 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 3: of very very cold weather. 9 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah, we had quite a cold snap lingered 10 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 2: around for many days there. We didn't get any of 11 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 2: the snow. They got a lot of snow north of us, 12 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 2: and you know, certainly in like Tennessee for example, and 13 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 2: I think parts of northern Georgia, but down here we 14 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 2: didn't see that. Instead, we just got cold temperatures and 15 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 2: we got ice. 16 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 3: I should bestfy it was cold weather for Atlanta, because 17 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 3: obviously we get sneered at by you know, people who 18 00:00:57,480 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 3: live in the really freezing click. 19 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 2: That's right, yeah, So you know, like a lot of people, 20 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 2: it was, you know, it was unseasonably cold. So I 21 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 2: was noticing things that I hadn't noticed before in my 22 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 2: immediate environment. And one of these things, right outside of 23 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 2: the window where we eat our breakfast, we have a 24 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 2: bird bath, and the bird bath was full of water. 25 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:27,759 Speaker 2: I probably should have emptied it because anytime the water 26 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 2: freezes in the bird bath, it like cracks the plastic 27 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:34,119 Speaker 2: at the bottom, and then once everything melts and dries out, 28 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 2: I have to like superglue it again so that it 29 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 2: will hold water. But you know, it's still it's amusing, 30 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 2: especially for my son when when all that freezes up. 31 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 2: Except this time, there was a little something extra going on. 32 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 2: And it's something that I know a number of you 33 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 2: out there have experienced as well. And if you haven't 34 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 2: experienced it, maybe you've seen pictures or footage of it 35 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 2: from other people having this experience. But you go out 36 00:01:57,880 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 2: to the bird bath, it is of course frozen saft, 37 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 2: except there's this little extra bit. There's a spike emerging, 38 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:09,239 Speaker 2: and generally it's like diagonally from the bird bath, as 39 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 2: if there's like some sort of sentient like death spike 40 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 2: or in some cases kind of a cone or pyramid 41 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,519 Speaker 2: or inverted pyramid emerging out of the ice. 42 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 3: Yeah. I've seen this in different forms, often with like 43 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 3: a bird bath. I feel like I've seen it in 44 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 3: the form of something that looks like a like a 45 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 3: vase or Yeah, more like a cone, but I'm familiar 46 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 3: with it also just in the freezer making ice cubes. 47 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 3: Occasionally I think, if you know, if conditions in the 48 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 3: freezer are just right, you'll you'll put in a tray 49 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 3: of ice cubes and you'll pull them out and they'll 50 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 3: have like what looks like, I don't know, the the 51 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 3: outline of a comet impact on the surface of the 52 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 3: ice cube, frozen in time exactly. Yeah. 53 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, So again, this is a fairly common occurrence, but 54 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 2: it doesn't seem to take away from the novelty of 55 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 2: ice spikes. And there are a lot of explained articles 56 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 2: concerning ice spikes out there, But one of the older 57 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 2: ones I came across was a letter published in the 58 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 2: journal Nature on March seventh, nineteen thirty one, and it 59 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 2: was written by Arthur Morley Davies who lived eighteen sixty 60 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 2: nine through nineteen fifty nine. He was a staunch critic 61 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 2: of creationism and an author of the nineteen thirty seven 62 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 2: book Evolution and Its Modern Critics. 63 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,519 Speaker 3: I'm picturing the Statler and Waldorf. 64 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 2: So you know, learned man scientist and author. But in 65 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:34,119 Speaker 2: this article I was amused because he's doing just what 66 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 2: I was doing, and what many of us are still 67 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 2: doing today, gazing at this sudden weird ice in a 68 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 2: bird bath and just trying to figure out what's going on, 69 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 2: kind of guessing at it, and also calling up friends 70 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 2: and being like, Hey, you'd never believe what I saw 71 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 2: this morning is quite curious. Let's talk about what's going 72 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 2: on here. So I'm going to read just a bit 73 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 2: from it here, he says, quote. I am indebted to 74 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 2: a number of my colleagues, and particularly to Professor Ao 75 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 2: Ramkin and doctor H. T Ellingham for a very interesting 76 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 2: discussion of this phenomenon. The most feasible explanation appears to 77 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 2: be that freezing began as usual at the margin of 78 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 2: the surface of the water, and ice crystals grew inward 79 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 2: until the surface was completely frozen except for a triangular 80 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 2: area in the center. At this stage, there was a 81 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 2: rapid fall of temperature, and the water below the surface 82 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 2: began to freeze quickly. The expansion accompanying solidification caused the 83 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,840 Speaker 2: excess of volume to be forced through the triangular aperture, 84 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 2: the water freezing as it rose. And that sounds pretty good, right, yeah, yeah, 85 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 2: And this is roughly what I was thinking about as well. 86 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 2: I think the morning that we saw the ice spike, 87 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 2: we were going somewhere. I think it was like super cold, 88 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 2: but we were like, Okay, I guess we're going to 89 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 2: go to Ikia or something. So we looked at the 90 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 2: ice spike and we got in the car, and then 91 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 2: I was just kind of thinking about the ice spike, 92 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 2: and I was like, well, I guess what's probably happening 93 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 2: is such and such, And it sounds like I was 94 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 2: mostly correct. The oldest writings on the formation of these 95 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:06,919 Speaker 2: ice spikes that I could come across, they seem to 96 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 2: go back a decade or so earlier to nineteen twenty one. 97 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 2: This is when H. E. Dorsey wrote about it. Apparently 98 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 2: another author that is credited as O. Bali or Bally 99 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 2: also wrote about it. Thus it is often referred to 100 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 2: as the Bally Dorsey theory of spicule formation on sweet pellets. 101 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 2: So who's this Dorsey, gentleman, Well, this would be American engineer, 102 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 2: inventor and physicist Herbert Grove Dorsey, who lived eighteen seventy 103 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 2: six through nineteen sixty one, who invented and patented the 104 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 2: first practical pathometer for phathometer. I suppose for determining water 105 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 2: depth in nineteen twenty eight, along with many other inventions, 106 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 2: though that might be the biggest one. He was principal 107 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:54,840 Speaker 2: engineer for the United States Coast and Geodetic Survey Radiosonic 108 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 2: Laboratory in the nineteen thirties. He studied the formation of 109 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 2: ice spikes in a laboratory setting, and he theorized that 110 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 2: the increase in volume for the freezing ice forced water 111 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 2: up through an opening in the ice covering, creating a 112 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 2: tube that grows at the tip. And this does remain 113 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 2: the most widely accepted theory of what's going on here. 114 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 3: But from what I understand, the conditions have to be 115 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 3: just right to form an ice spike, right, Like, if 116 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 3: it's either too warm or too cold below freezing, either 117 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 3: way it will it will inhibit the formation of the spike. 118 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah. I was reading about the work of 119 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:35,599 Speaker 2: physicist Kenneth Librick, who conducted a study of ice spikes 120 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 2: in two thousand and three and found that there's kind 121 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 2: of like a Goldilocks zone for ice spike formation. You 122 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 2: want it to be roughly twenty degrees fairnheigh. That's negative 123 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 2: seven degrees celsius more or less colder than that, and 124 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 2: spikes don't form hotter than that, and the ice doesn't 125 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 2: form fast enough to generate a spike. Also, the quality 126 00:06:56,360 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 2: of water plays apart, so pure water, according to this 127 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 2: individual's experiments, seemed to be important. He found that with 128 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 2: salt content he saw a reduction in a likelihood of 129 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 2: ice spikes, and in his experiments, tap water didn't work 130 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 2: at all. Now, granted, tap water is going to vary 131 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 2: from place to place, but yeah, it seems like pure 132 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 2: water is going to be your best option here. 133 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 3: I think it's interesting that the formation of spikes in 134 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 3: freezing water, that process is dependent on the peculiar fact 135 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 3: that water, unlike most substances, expands rather than contracts as 136 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 3: it freezes. So and you know, a lot of things 137 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 3: actually on Earth and in life in the universe are 138 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 3: dependent on the fact that water expands instead of contracting 139 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 3: as it freezes. So if water contracted and became more 140 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 3: dense as it froze, water would sink to like ice 141 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 3: would sink to the bottom of bodies of water instead 142 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,559 Speaker 3: of floating on top, which would you know, radically change 143 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 3: the way life life works on Earth. I think I've 144 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 3: read some arguments before that it like if that were 145 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 3: physically the case, it would sort of make life on 146 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 3: Earth near impossible because like, when water started freezing on top, 147 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 3: it would essentially instead of insulating the water below with 148 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 3: the ice layer on top, the ice would sink to 149 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 3: the bottom, and then the whole column of water would freeze, 150 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 3: and then you know, it would kill all the life 151 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 3: forms in it, or at least freeze them. So that's 152 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 3: an extremely consequential outcome of the fact that the water 153 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 3: expands instead of contracting when it freezes. But also we 154 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 3: get these ice bikes, So like, yeah, like you explained, Rob, 155 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 3: you've got a container of water and it starts freezing 156 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:38,679 Speaker 3: from the outside in. You can imagine it sort of 157 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,599 Speaker 3: forms a shell of ice in a way around this 158 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 3: mass of liquid water, and this the liquid water in 159 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 3: the middle. It starts to freeze. It needs somewhere to 160 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 3: go because it's expanding in the freezing process. So if 161 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 3: there's only like a hole left in the surface, it's 162 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 3: going to start squeezing out through that hole and freezing 163 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 3: as it squeezes out and just freezes taller and taller, taller. 164 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:03,439 Speaker 3: For liquids, that shrink in volume as they freeze. 165 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 2: This would never happen, right, right, So it's yeah, it's 166 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 2: a fun little thing to observe at the at a 167 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 2: frozen bird bath or inside of a freezer if conditions 168 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 2: are right there. So in this episode, as you've probably guessed, 169 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 2: this is roughly what we're going to be talking about, 170 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 2: various examples of what you might call strange eyes, strange 171 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:26,679 Speaker 2: water eyes, and we have some fun ones to discuss here. 172 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 3: Okay, So I'm going to talk about a bizarre, haunting 173 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 3: genre of ice formation referred to as nieves penitentes Spanish 174 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 3: for penitent snows, or sometimes they're just called penitentes, meaning penitents, 175 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 3: So depending on what you read, they're named after their 176 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 3: resemblance either to maybe human figures kneeling in prayer, or 177 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:53,679 Speaker 3: more often to monks marching in religious processions, especially the 178 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 3: kind you might see with like the pointed hoods worn 179 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 3: in Spanish Catholic celebrations of Holy Week. These formations are 180 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:06,479 Speaker 3: so sometimes described as standing blades, pinnacles, towers, or columns 181 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 3: of ice. They can reach up to a maximum of 182 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:12,679 Speaker 3: four or five meters in height in the settings where 183 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 3: they're most commonly found, though I found some claims of 184 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 3: penitents or penitent like formations in other cases reaching even higher. 185 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 3: But the numbers I've seen for the Andes where they're 186 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 3: most often seen are four or five meters. They can 187 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 3: be found in high mountain ranges, especially the Andes in 188 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 3: South America, at elevations of about four thousand meters above 189 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 3: sea level or more. They're generally oriented so that the 190 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 3: blades point toward the path of the sun, point toward 191 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 3: the noontime sun, and they can occupy whole fields or hillsides, which, 192 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 3: if you go with the analogy of their namesake, forms 193 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:56,839 Speaker 3: the impression of a vast, uncountable crowd of worshippers or 194 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 3: of maybe monks gathering at the end of a great 195 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 3: procession or pilgrimage. 196 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:05,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's some very evocative photos of these. You included 197 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 2: some in the outline. Some of these are I feel 198 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 2: like they're just the kind of thing that are just 199 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 2: ripped from the sorts of wallpapers that come included with 200 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 2: various Apple products, you know, like it's that kind of 201 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 2: like stunning serene imagery. 202 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly so, looking at the photos, I totally understand 203 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:26,719 Speaker 3: the comparison to kneeling or marching human bodies. But personally, 204 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 3: I'm struck with how much they can sometimes look like 205 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 3: a naturally occurring maize with chaotic corridors and pathways that 206 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 3: are bounded by these thin, jagged ridges of ice. So 207 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:44,079 Speaker 3: to me, some of these landscapes and they can take 208 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 3: you know, they have different sizes and orientations and stuff, 209 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 3: so they don't all look the same. But some of 210 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 3: the Penitente landscapes look like a frost magic variant of 211 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 3: a xenomorph colony was using their structural mucous secretions to 212 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 3: approximate a human hedge made. 213 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 2: Is Yeah, Yeah, it does have that kind of feeling 214 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 2: a very alien landscape, especially the case in these images 215 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 2: you shared here where we see human beings standing amid 216 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 2: these blades. 217 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, and that can create a very creepy feeling. You 218 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 3: see people posing with them. Sometimes they're as tall as 219 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:19,959 Speaker 3: the person or taller, and it's as if either they're 220 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 3: standing in a crowd or maybe standing in a kind 221 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 3: of forest or maze. And the other objects here are 222 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 3: not people or trees or hedges or whatever, but they 223 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:33,439 Speaker 3: are giant, rippling blade like shards of ice. Now, one 224 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:37,679 Speaker 3: famous historical description of these features can be found in 225 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 3: Charles Darwin's Voyage of the Beagle. This is a work 226 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 3: we've talked about on the show a number of times before, 227 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 3: but it's the published memoir of Charles Darwin's five year 228 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 3: journey around the world on the British Royal Navy survey ship, 229 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 3: the HMS Beagle, during which journey Darwin made geological and 230 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 3: biological observations which would later form the basis of his 231 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 3: theory of evolution by natural selection. But this book was 232 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 3: from before on the Origin of species. This book is 233 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:11,959 Speaker 3: just full of interesting observations about the world and about 234 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,679 Speaker 3: nature from Darwin's travels, and it helps for the reading 235 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 3: that Darwin, I think is a very good writer of prose. 236 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:22,319 Speaker 3: So for context, the time of the entry where Darwin's 237 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 3: going to talk about Penitentes is March eighteen, thirty thirty five. 238 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 3: Darwin and his traveling party are in the middle of 239 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,439 Speaker 3: the Andes Mountains, so this is a part of the 240 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 3: journey where he's off of the ship and he's traveling 241 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 3: around in South America. They're in the middle of the 242 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:42,599 Speaker 3: Andes and they are making an overland journey from Santiago, 243 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 3: Chile to the city of Mendoza in modern day Argentina, 244 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 3: and on the course of this track, Darwin makes a 245 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 3: number of very scientifically interesting observations, including coming across a 246 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 3: petrified forest in the barren reaches of the High Desert, 247 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 3: and also discover bring some fossil seashells embedded in rocks 248 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 3: way up in the mountains. Darwin writes, quote shells which 249 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 3: were once crawling on the bottom of the sea, now 250 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 3: standing nearly fourteen thousand feet above its level. So the 251 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 3: entries of the journal I'm going to look at are 252 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 3: from around March twenty first to March twenty second, and 253 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 3: a Darwin's party they've just emerged from a mountain pass 254 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 3: called Puquines and they are headed toward another mountain pass 255 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 3: called the Portillo Pass. And so March late March I 256 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 3: was thinking of winter transitioning to spring. But that's then 257 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 3: I realized, oh, that's northern hemisphere brain talking. This is 258 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 3: the southern hemisphere. So that's actually summer turning into autumn. 259 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 3: So this is I think a late time of the 260 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 3: year to be trying to make this journey. Now, it's 261 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 3: an interesting note. Before we get to the ice formations, 262 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 3: I did just want to mention something that caught my 263 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 3: attention from the journal entry from March twenty first, Darwin 264 00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 3: says he and his companions have made their way into 265 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 3: a high mountainous country between two mountain ranges, and again 266 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 3: this is apparently late in the season for travel. Darwin 267 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 3: fears what would happen if there's bad weather because there 268 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 3: is not much there's not really anywhere for them to 269 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 3: take shelter, and he says that they are able to 270 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 3: build what he calls a miserable fire out of the 271 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 3: only available fuel, which are the roots of an unspecified 272 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 3: scrubby plant. And he says that the wind was piercingly cold. 273 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 2: I'm getting shades of Bilbo. Is there about the journey 274 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 2: through the misty mountains? Here? 275 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 3: Oh that's funny, Yeah, No lyrics of songs are included. 276 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 2: Unfortunately, here does he complain about the lack of food though. 277 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 3: Oh you know, Darwin had to have second breakfast, and 278 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 3: in fact there are complaints about food coming right up. 279 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 3: So Darwin is about to explain troubles they had cooking 280 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 3: their food, which connects to an interesting fact we've talked 281 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 3: about in some of our episodes on high altitudes. In 282 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 3: the past. So Darwin writes, quote, at the place where 283 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 3: we slept, water necessarily boiled from the diminished pressure of 284 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 3: the atmosphere at a lower temperature than it does in 285 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 3: a less lofty country, the case being the converse of 286 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 3: that of a Papan's digester. Now a quick note here. 287 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 3: Papan's digester was basically a pressure cooker. It was an 288 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 3: early pressure cooker invented in the seventeenth century by the 289 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 3: French physicist Denis Papan. So Darwin is saying that the 290 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 3: high elevation at his camp is functioning like a reverse 291 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 3: pressure cooker. Inside a pressure cooker you increase the boiling 292 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 3: point of water by closing it and having a higher pressure, 293 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 3: allowing the food to cook faster. At his camp, and 294 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 3: the low pressure up there, it lowers the boiling point 295 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 3: of water instead of increasing it. So he goes on 296 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 3: to say, quote, hence the potatoes, after remaining for some 297 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 3: hours in the boiling water, were nearly as hard as ever. 298 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 3: The pot was left on the fire all night, and 299 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 3: next morning it was boiled again, But yet the potatoes 300 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 3: were not cooked. I found out this by overhearing my 301 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,359 Speaker 3: two companions discussing the cause they had come to the 302 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 3: simple conclusion quote that the cursed pot, which was a 303 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:12,440 Speaker 3: new one, did not choose to boil potatoes. Oh wow, 304 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 3: this pot hates potatoes. So a couple of things here. 305 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 3: First of all, what Darwin says about cooking at high 306 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 3: elevation is absolutely true. We've discussed this on the show before. 307 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 3: The higher you go above sea level, the less atmospheric 308 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 3: pressure there is, so there's less atmosphere sitting on you. 309 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 3: The lower the atmospheric pressure, the lower the boiling point 310 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:35,160 Speaker 3: of water at that elevation. I don't know exactly what 311 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:38,640 Speaker 3: elevation Darwin was at the point he was cooking here, 312 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,719 Speaker 3: but the highest elevation he mentions in the surrounding text 313 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 3: is fourteen thousand feet, And according to a chart I 314 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 3: found on the internet, at fourteen thousand feet, the boiling 315 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:50,880 Speaker 3: point of water is about one hundred and eighty six 316 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 3: degrees fahrenheit or eighty six degrees See. Of course, in 317 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 3: a regular pot, water cannot get hotter than its boiling point, 318 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,360 Speaker 3: which means there's a lit to how hot you can 319 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 3: get the food you're trying to cook in the water. 320 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 3: And as an experiment, I was like, well, I wonder 321 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 3: what a potato cooked to one hundred and eighty six 322 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 3: degrees fahrenheit is like. So I did this yesterday with 323 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 3: the aid of a probe thermometer in my toaster oven. 324 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 3: So it was a dry cooking method, not a wet one. 325 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 3: Not not a perfect comparison, but the results were that, 326 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 3: you know, the potato cooked to one eighty six fahrenheit 327 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,439 Speaker 3: was not good, but not inedible. I would say a 328 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 3: potato definitely should be cooked to a higher temperature in 329 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 3: order to be enjoyable. You know, if I was making 330 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:38,879 Speaker 3: a baked potato and doing an internal temperature, I would 331 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 3: take it to like two oh eight fahrenheit. You need 332 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 3: to take it to almost the boiling point of water. 333 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 3: And this this potato I did to one eighty six 334 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 3: was not fluffy. It was still kind of firm. But also, 335 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,160 Speaker 3: you know, it was cooked enough that I assumed somebody 336 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 3: climbing through the mountains would settle for it. So I 337 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 3: wonder if there were any other factors at play that 338 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,160 Speaker 3: made it even less well done than my one hundred 339 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 3: and eighty six fahrenheit potato. I'm not sure, But potato 340 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 3: thoughts aside. The other thing I wanted to come back 341 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 3: to is an interesting case of connections in the Burkian sense. 342 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 3: Here denis Papan's steam digestor, which again this is an 343 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 3: early seventeenth century pressure cooker, was actually an important inspiration 344 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 3: for Thomas Nukman and others in their work on developing 345 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 3: the steam engine, showing that the expansion of trapped steam, 346 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 3: you know it's expanding under heat, could be used to 347 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,679 Speaker 3: do work. For example, to drive a piston, which you know, 348 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 3: from the right combination of gears and shafts and things, 349 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 3: could you could apply that work of the driven piston 350 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,200 Speaker 3: to almost any task, from pumping water to turning the 351 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 3: wheels of a railcar. 352 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 2: Fascinating. 353 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, may you never look at your instant pot the 354 00:19:49,840 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 3: same again. But anyway, we got to come back to 355 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:05,159 Speaker 3: the ice formation. So we were moving on to the 356 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:09,200 Speaker 3: journal entry of March twenty second, where Darwin says, after 357 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 3: eating our potato less breakfast, we traveled across the intermediate 358 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 3: tract to the foot of the Portillo range. In the 359 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 3: middle of summer, cattle are brought up here to graze, 360 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 3: but they had now all been removed. Even the greater 361 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 3: number of the Guanacos had decamped, Knowing well that if 362 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 3: overtaken here by a snowstorm, they would be caught in 363 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,680 Speaker 3: a trap. And I had to look this up. Guanacos 364 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 3: or a type of South American camelid closely related to 365 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:35,639 Speaker 3: the lama. 366 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're really cool. I've never seen them in person, 367 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 2: but I've seen some nature documentaries that feature them, and yeah, 368 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 2: they're like they're a wild species, and yeah, they have 369 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 2: a quite noble air to them. Based on the footage 370 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 2: i've scene. 371 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 3: I thought they were cute. Darwin goes on. We had 372 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:56,199 Speaker 3: a fine view of a massive mountains called Tupungato, the 373 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 3: whole clothed with the unbroken snow in the midst of 374 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,360 Speaker 3: which there was a blue patch, no doubt a glacier. 375 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:06,879 Speaker 3: A circumstance of rare occurrence in these mountains now commenced 376 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 3: a heavy and long climb, similar to that of the Puquenes. 377 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 3: Bold conical hills of red granite rose on each hand. 378 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:19,679 Speaker 3: In the valleys there were several broad fields of perpetual snow. 379 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 3: These frozen masses, during the process of thawing, had in 380 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 3: some parts been converted into pinnacles or columns, which, as 381 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 3: they were high and close together, made it difficult for 382 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 3: our cargo mules to pass on one of these columns 383 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 3: of ice, a frozen horse was sticking as on a pedestal, 384 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,159 Speaker 3: but with its hind legs straight up in the air. 385 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 3: The animal, i suppose, must have fallen with its head 386 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:52,159 Speaker 3: downward into a hole when the snow was continuous, and 387 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 3: afterwards the surrounding parts must have been removed by the thall. 388 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,360 Speaker 3: Oh wow, so it's a shocking and vocative scene Darwin 389 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 3: is describing. So again, these are valleys in between the 390 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 3: granite hills. The valleys are covered in perpetual snow, so 391 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 3: you know this is the end of summer in the 392 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,879 Speaker 3: region and the snow is still not fully melted. And 393 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 3: Darwin says that this snow, while partially thawing in the summer, 394 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 3: had somehow been converted into a field of pinnacles or columns. Again, 395 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 3: he says it was difficult for the mules loaded with 396 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,880 Speaker 3: cargo to pass between these pinnacles, and in one pinnacle 397 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 3: formation they found a dead horse, frozen solid, face down 398 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 3: with its hind parts pointing straight up to the sky. 399 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 3: Darwin says in a footnote he believes this is the 400 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 3: same phenomenon that has been observed by other authors, including 401 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 3: Scores B. Jackson and Lyell, and he says, based on 402 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 3: his observations, he thinks that it must be due to 403 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 3: what he calls quote metamorphic action and not a process 404 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 3: during position. So what he thinks from looking at this 405 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,880 Speaker 3: scene is that it's not that the snow gets piled 406 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 3: up like this to begin with and then freezes that way, 407 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 3: but it's something about how a snowfield changes over time, 408 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 3: perhaps during partial thawing. So good question is was Darwin 409 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 3: right about that? It seems the answer is yes, Darwin 410 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 3: did not fully understand the cause, but I think his 411 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,640 Speaker 3: basic intuition was right. It seems that for a long 412 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 3: time it was widely thought that snow penitentes were formed 413 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,120 Speaker 3: by way of wind erosion, but this has now been 414 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 3: shown to be mostly incorrect. It seems that penitentes are 415 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 3: unique to certain conditions. They only they're especially associated with 416 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 3: the Andes, the dry Andies, but you can find them 417 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 3: in some other climates. They tend to only form in high, dry, 418 00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 3: very sunny environments like those found around Glacier in the Andes. 419 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,359 Speaker 3: In these conditions, when the surface of a snowfield is 420 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 3: heated by the sun, it does not melt into a liquid, 421 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 3: but instead sublimates, meaning it it skips the liquid phase 422 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 3: transition and turns directly from a solid into a gas. 423 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 3: So the snowfields get heated by the sun and then 424 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 3: the ice crystals turn directly into water vapor and float 425 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 3: away in the air. Sublimation is more likely to happen 426 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 3: when there's already very little water vapor in the air, 427 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 3: so the conditions are dry, and also in places where 428 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 3: the air pressure is lower, for example high altitude. So 429 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 3: the snow from the top layer of a snowfield in 430 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 3: the high andies is sublimating in the sunshine. The question 431 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 3: is what causes it to turn into blades or pinnacles 432 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 3: instead of simply disappearing sort of evenly across the whole 433 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 3: sheet of snowfall. Well, there may still be some dis 434 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 3: agreement about the primary physical causes behind this process, but 435 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 3: according to a good article that I was reading about 436 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 3: this by Philip Ball, the science writer Philip Ball on 437 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 3: the American Physical Society website, which is summarizing some research 438 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 3: from the year twenty fifteen, there is a multipart theory 439 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 3: that seems to explain it well. So one piece of 440 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 3: the puzzle of how this happens was described in work 441 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 3: by Uce Boulder physicist Meredith Betterton and co authors on 442 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 3: a couple of papers in the two thousands, and basically 443 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 3: this factor has to do with the fact that snow 444 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,880 Speaker 3: can be heated and caused to sublimate not only by 445 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 3: direct sunlight, so the first time the sun hits the snow, 446 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:54,199 Speaker 3: but also by reflected sunlight, and so any irregularities in 447 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 3: the surface of the snowfield that cause a ray of 448 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:01,199 Speaker 3: sunlight to bounce sideways in instead of straight back up 449 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 3: the sky can cause secondary heating. This might be a 450 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 3: little hard to picture without a diagram, rob I've got 451 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 3: an illustration for you to look at here. But if 452 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 3: you can imagine rays of light are coming down from above, 453 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 3: and if you have peaks and valleys within a snowfield, 454 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,919 Speaker 3: ray of light hits somewhere within a valley, and the 455 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 3: snow is very bright and white, so a lot of 456 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,159 Speaker 3: that energy gets reflected back off of the surface of 457 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 3: the snow. That reflection will often send it bouncing down 458 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 3: to another part of the valley. Does that make sense 459 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 3: that you can picture all these angles where the rays 460 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 3: of light hits somewhere in the valley, and then they 461 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 3: bounce and then they hit somewhere else in the valley, 462 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,440 Speaker 3: and they can essentially keep bouncing around within the valley 463 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 3: so that they eventually get absorbed and converted into heat. 464 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 3: So basically, if peaks and valleys are somehow able to 465 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 3: initially form within a layer of snow, the valleys will 466 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 3: be self deepening because the light that hits within the 467 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 3: valley will bounce back and hit somewhere else in the valley, 468 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 3: and it's sort of trapping that energy within it, further 469 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 3: heating another point in the valley. Whereas the peaks are 470 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 3: relatively protected from most reflected light, the only heating they're 471 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,640 Speaker 3: getting is pretty much from the direct the first hit 472 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,400 Speaker 3: of the sunlight. So the valleys heat more than the peaks, 473 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,400 Speaker 3: and they continually sublimate and deepen. What start as tiny 474 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,719 Speaker 3: differences in the surface of the ice. These things deepen 475 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 3: into great rifts and corridors in the ice as reflected 476 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,880 Speaker 3: solar energy whittles away the valleys, until we have these 477 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 3: these sort of like mazes of blades. However, according to 478 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 3: this theory discussed in Ball's article, this is apparently not 479 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,880 Speaker 3: the whole picture. There are a couple of other mechanisms 480 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 3: you need to add. So Philip Ball's article is summarizing 481 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 3: additional research that was published by Philip Claudan and co 482 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 3: authors in Physical Review E in twenty fifteen in a 483 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 3: paper called Physical Processes causing the Formation of Penitentes. So 484 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 3: the authors of this paper are saying, you need more 485 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,919 Speaker 3: mechanisms than just that the reflected light being trapped in 486 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 3: the valleys to explain, for example, the regularity of spacing 487 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 3: and patterns seen in fields of penitentes, because while the 488 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:23,400 Speaker 3: penitentes may look sort of chaotic, they are not random. 489 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 3: There are clearly patterns that recur, and a particular scale 490 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 3: of spacing is favored within one field of these things. 491 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,120 Speaker 3: So their paper adds a couple of other mechanisms into 492 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 3: the mix. This is pretty technical, but Ball explained it 493 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 3: in a way that I think I understand based on 494 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 3: his summary. So Ball says, first of all, in order 495 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 3: to sublimate, the snow or the ice actually has to 496 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 3: absorb the incoming light and convert that energy into heat. 497 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,719 Speaker 3: And when it absorbs this energy, the interior of the 498 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 3: mass of ice becomes warmer than the direct surface of 499 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 3: the mass. So the layer of snow right underneath the 500 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 3: surface is warmer than the surface itself, and the gradient 501 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 3: between these two layers is determined by how easily the 502 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 3: light is absorbed by the snow, which varies between the 503 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 3: peaks and valleys Ball rights quote. Heat is radiated less 504 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 3: efficiently from the troughs than from the peaks, which leads 505 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 3: to a steeper temperature gradient in the snow within the troughs. 506 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 3: This steeper temperature gradient turns out to produce a higher 507 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 3: sublimation rate, so that the troughs become self amplifying in 508 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 3: the early stages of growth. So that's another way that 509 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 3: the troughs can become, as he says, self amplifying. Once 510 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 3: they already exist, they tend to sublimate faster and become 511 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,479 Speaker 3: deeper than the peaks. But the second main issue is 512 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:54,719 Speaker 3: that sublimation of snow depends on what's going on in 513 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 3: the air right above the snow. It depends on that 514 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 3: air right above the snow or ice being very dry. 515 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 3: If there's already a lot of water vapor in the 516 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 3: air right above the ice, less of the ice is 517 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 3: going to phase transition into gas and float away. Of course, 518 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 3: when ice sublimates, it becomes water vapor. So the rate 519 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 3: at which more ice below can sublimate depends on how 520 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 3: quickly the water vapor that forms just above the ice 521 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 3: is removed, is maybe blown away by the wind or 522 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 3: somehow diffused into the rest of the atmosphere. Essentially, you 523 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 3: can't put more passengers in the elevator until some current 524 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 3: passengers get out. So this research by Claude Anne and 525 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 3: co authors argue that it is the It is this 526 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 3: water vapor diffusion principle that determines the regular spacing between 527 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,560 Speaker 3: the peaks and valleys in the fields of ice. It 528 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 3: is apparently like when there are patterns of difference in 529 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 3: the diffusion of water vapor from the air directly above 530 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 3: the ice, that these peaks and valleys begin to form. 531 00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 3: And then once they do, for the reasons already mentioned, 532 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 3: they are self amplifying. So maybe here's an area of 533 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 3: snow where the air is wetter, sublimation doesn't happen as well, 534 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 3: That becomes a peak. Here's an area of snow where 535 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 3: the air is drier, sublimation happens more there. This becomes 536 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 3: a valley. So the spacing of penitentes is in part 537 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 3: determined by things like wind conditions. If wind blows, it 538 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 3: diffuses water vapor faster, and apparently this leads to penitentes 539 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 3: forming farther apart from one another if they form. And 540 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,720 Speaker 3: using the mathematical model established in this paper, the team 541 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 3: calculated that in conditions with no wind, you would expect 542 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 3: to see penitentes spaced in the range of roughly tens 543 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 3: of centimeters apart, which is in fact the most common 544 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 3: pattern found in nature. So these tiny differences in water 545 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 3: vapor diffusion and reflection of light and heat absorption in 546 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 3: a field of snow can, over time, by this self 547 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 3: amplification process, turn into these crazy hedge mazes of ice knives. 548 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 3: And I think that's a beautiful thing. Now. I don't 549 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 3: know if that solves the question of how the horse 550 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 3: ended up frozen faced down again. Darwin guesses that somehow, 551 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 3: like maybe when there was a lot more snow piled 552 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 3: higher up, the horse fell headfirst into a hole and 553 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 3: it froze there, and then somehow that turned into as 554 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 3: snow was sublimated or melted away was removed, somehow it 555 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 3: turned into just like a pedestal, like a column of 556 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,480 Speaker 3: ice with a horse sticking out of it with its 557 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:34,239 Speaker 3: head frozen in. 558 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 2: It's hard to picture, remains a mystery, but I love 559 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 2: this whole encounter. Here we have such a surreal landscape 560 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 2: to envision, and then we have a familiar character in 561 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 2: the form of Charles Darwin navigating it and trying his 562 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 2: best to make sense. 563 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 3: Of it on a potato free belly. Yes, you can 564 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 3: just imagine, like all night the weather's bad, He's worried 565 00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 3: or are they gonna get snowed in? Are they going 566 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 3: to die up there? And then in the morning he's like, 567 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 3: at least I'm going to have some potatoes. 568 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 2: Nope, And then Gandalf turns to him and says, Charles, 569 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 2: your role in this mission is extremely important. 570 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 3: Now, just one more quick note. I have encountered it. 571 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 3: I didn't have time to fully delve into this and 572 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 3: figure out what I thought of the disagreement, but I've 573 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 3: encountered dueling opinions about whether we would expect to find 574 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 3: large penitentes on particular bodies in space, for example, on 575 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 3: the surface of Jupiter's moon Europa. So there was one paper, 576 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 3: for example I came across called formation of meter scaled 577 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 3: bladed roughness on Europe on Europa's surface by ablation of ice, 578 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 3: published in Nature Geoscience by Hoby at All in twenty eighteen. 579 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 3: The authors here say, quote, we estimate that penitentes on 580 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 3: Europa could reach fifteen meters in depth with a spacing 581 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 3: of seven point five meters near the equation on average, 582 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 3: if they were to have developed across the interval permitted 583 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 3: by Europa's mean surface age, so ice blades about fifteen 584 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,720 Speaker 3: meters tall, which is fifty feet. Obviously, this would present 585 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 3: some complications if you were trying to, say, put a 586 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 3: lander down in a region that had a surface texture 587 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:22,879 Speaker 3: like this. But then, on the other hand, I saw 588 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 3: that there are some papers in reply to this paper 589 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 3: arguing against the notion, and at least one of them 590 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:33,600 Speaker 3: was doing so by challenging the formation theory of penitentes 591 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 3: that I was just explaining. So I don't know how 592 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 3: well subscribed to this dissenting opinion is, but it seems 593 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 3: like it's possible. There's still some major controversy in how 594 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:47,319 Speaker 3: the penitentes form and how that would affect what we 595 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 3: should expect to find on icy planets like Europa. 596 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 2: I found that many of the I related papers I've 597 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 2: looked at it seems to be there seems to be 598 00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 2: a steep drop off regarding like technical details concerning the 599 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 2: formation of ice crystals and so forth. So it can 600 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 2: be a little challenging at times to figuring out exactly 601 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,319 Speaker 2: what the experts are are dealing with or arguing about 602 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:26,439 Speaker 2: in some of these All right, I have a few 603 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 2: other forms of ice I want to throw out here. 604 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:34,239 Speaker 2: I was mainly attracted to this additional topic of candle ice. 605 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:36,920 Speaker 2: I know that many of you out there have probably 606 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,319 Speaker 2: seen some interesting videos and images online of candle ice. 607 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,799 Speaker 2: But candle ice is a subset of rotten ice, so 608 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:45,919 Speaker 2: I'll need to talk about that first. 609 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:47,880 Speaker 3: What rotten ice? 610 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 2: Rotten ice? Yeah, I know it sounds sounds grizzly, right, 611 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,920 Speaker 2: like the ice is stinking and dark and bleeding or something. 612 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 2: But rotten ice is, according to the National Snow and 613 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,759 Speaker 2: Ice Data Center, floating ice which has become honeycombed in 614 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,480 Speaker 2: the course of melting and which is in an advanced 615 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,600 Speaker 2: state of disintegration. You can also think of it as 616 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:12,799 Speaker 2: ice just in an advanced stage of melting, so it's 617 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:16,480 Speaker 2: porous and it's difficult to climb or work on it's 618 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,359 Speaker 2: generally considered dangerous for humans to work on or with 619 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,440 Speaker 2: it since it has lost or is losing its stability. 620 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:25,359 Speaker 3: That's interesting. So this would be yet another case of 621 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,960 Speaker 3: ice that is weakening or losing some of its mass, 622 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:32,879 Speaker 3: not doing so in an even way, but losing its 623 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 3: mass in a kind of modeled pattern, as opposed to 624 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,760 Speaker 3: just like you know, thinning out evenly across its surface. 625 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 2: Right right, And therefore it could be dangerous if you 626 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 2: have like a stretch of this and people are going 627 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:46,120 Speaker 2: to try and walk on it or work with it 628 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,440 Speaker 2: in some way. There's apparently a great deal of interest 629 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:53,759 Speaker 2: and concern concerning the impact of this ice type on 630 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:57,720 Speaker 2: the biogeochemistry of the Arctic as well, since climate change 631 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,440 Speaker 2: and a warming Arctic will make this sort of ice 632 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 2: more common. Is pointed out by France that all in 633 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 2: the distinct microbial ecology and biogeochemistry of rotten sea ice 634 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 2: on the Arctic Shelf twenty twenty. This was a NASA 635 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 2: ADS publication. Apparently this presents a quote physically and chemically 636 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:24,520 Speaker 2: distinct microbial habitat and it's melting could quote contribute significantly 637 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,759 Speaker 2: to Arctic shelf carbon and nitrogen cycling and therefore to 638 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 2: Arctic biogeochemistry more generally, so it's enterally. It kind of 639 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,280 Speaker 2: comes back to the same realm of what you pointed 640 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:39,000 Speaker 2: out earlier. I mean, we live on a water planet, 641 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:44,719 Speaker 2: and the different phases of water are connected to the 642 00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:49,279 Speaker 2: way that life works on our planet. And so yeah, 643 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,160 Speaker 2: the story of ice is also connected to the story 644 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 2: of life. 645 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,919 Speaker 3: No doubt, especially if you're a water dwelling organism. 646 00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:58,880 Speaker 2: Right even if you just happened to be made of 647 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 2: mostly water. Right now, I was looking now for more 648 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:08,200 Speaker 2: details on candleized specifically, I was looking at this wonderful article. 649 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 2: I believe that the author and this is John A. Downing, 650 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 2: director of the University of Minnesota's Minnesota Sea Grant, And 651 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:21,799 Speaker 2: the author here points out that candleized leaves long, thin 652 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,520 Speaker 2: crystals as it melts, So again, this is a form 653 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:28,799 Speaker 2: of rotten ice. Primary ice that has been formed under 654 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,719 Speaker 2: very cold conditions melts, it leaves behind crystals that can 655 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 2: be either vertical or horizontal, depending on wind pattern. And 656 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,640 Speaker 2: he points out that horizontal crystals appear darker, while vertical 657 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:43,440 Speaker 2: ones appear white and are typically stronger. There are some 658 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,440 Speaker 2: wonderful videos out there of people in canoes or kayaks 659 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 2: churning up these crystals out of the like I mean, 660 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:51,960 Speaker 2: to an untrained eye, it might you might think these 661 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:54,839 Speaker 2: are like slushy waters, you know, like there's clearly some 662 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,879 Speaker 2: frozen slush in there. They'll dip the paddle and when 663 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 2: they pull pull it up, there are these longated crystals 664 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 2: that kind of rise up and then fall to the 665 00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 2: side almost like I mean, there's almost a sense of 666 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:08,200 Speaker 2: like icy spines parting. 667 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that's creepy. I just looked up images of this, 668 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 3: and so I'm seeing like a kayaker who's sticking their 669 00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:17,440 Speaker 3: paddle into the water and it looks like they're just 670 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:21,320 Speaker 3: like plowing through a pile of hay or maybe needles 671 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:21,959 Speaker 3: made of ice. 672 00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:25,400 Speaker 2: Yeah right, yeah, So it's you know, it's interesting to 673 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 2: think of like all these different forms of ice that 674 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 2: can occur at different points in the formation and deformation 675 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:38,319 Speaker 2: and melting or decomposition of ice. Now, another variety I 676 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,960 Speaker 2: want to mention here in passing is a type of 677 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,960 Speaker 2: ice that is often referred to as beach ice balls 678 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:47,920 Speaker 2: or sometimes mermaid's bowling balls. 679 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 3: Who came up with that name? 680 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:53,319 Speaker 2: I mean, yea, I mean, you look at them and 681 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 2: you're like, well, maybe this is a mermaid's bowling ball. 682 00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,960 Speaker 2: Often seeing generally you'll see like a lot of them, 683 00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,320 Speaker 2: So this is another type of ice that's profiled by downing. 684 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,920 Speaker 2: These are formed on cold beaches, and they may be 685 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:07,880 Speaker 2: pure ice and therefore have like kind of, you know, 686 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,279 Speaker 2: very much icy white look to them, or they might 687 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,440 Speaker 2: be ice covered in sand and sediment. They can reach 688 00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:19,240 Speaker 2: soccer ball sizes, so they're sphiracle there. They're just big 689 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,520 Speaker 2: white balls of ice, you know, not always perfect. Sometimes 690 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:26,120 Speaker 2: there's kind of like a little almost kind of like 691 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:30,600 Speaker 2: tadpole tails on them. It looks like little spikes. But yeah, 692 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:34,600 Speaker 2: these these are seemingly formed by formed as slush balls. 693 00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:38,200 Speaker 2: That's another form of ice by wave action and rolled 694 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:41,480 Speaker 2: up beaches by the tide, and it makes for quite 695 00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,239 Speaker 2: a surreal sight. I included a couple of images for you, Joe. Here. 696 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,239 Speaker 2: Some are there's some in the water, and then there's 697 00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:47,600 Speaker 2: some just piled up on a beach. 698 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:48,520 Speaker 1: Wow. 699 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:50,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, it looks like I would not have said mermaid 700 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,600 Speaker 3: bowling balls. I might have said, I don't know, e, 701 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:55,120 Speaker 3: lithid eggs or something. 702 00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:58,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I guess it's just because of the 703 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:02,319 Speaker 2: size they can reach and I'm guessing the weight, right, 704 00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:03,880 Speaker 2: I mean, if you were to pick one of these up, 705 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,200 Speaker 2: you might be like, oh, yeah, this is a volumeball. 706 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:08,920 Speaker 2: I just need three holes and I'm going to go. Now. Slushballs, 707 00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,480 Speaker 2: which I mentioned earlier, this is an yet another form 708 00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:16,200 Speaker 2: roughly as vehicle, caused by clumps of slush turned and 709 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:21,160 Speaker 2: rolled in a current. They accumulate like snowballs rolled rolled 710 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,919 Speaker 2: up to make a snowman, according to Downing. So yeah, 711 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,560 Speaker 2: just imagine again. Realized this canna be kind of hard 712 00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,200 Speaker 2: to picture if you able the like slush in the 713 00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:32,760 Speaker 2: water and you have you know, some sort of movement 714 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,880 Speaker 2: be it, you know, the waves, tidal action, and it 715 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,480 Speaker 2: just causes these to sort of roll and accumulate and 716 00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:44,839 Speaker 2: form ultimately, uh, these big balls of ice. All right. 717 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:47,040 Speaker 2: In the last one I want to talk about here, 718 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,200 Speaker 2: this is a This is another novel And this is 719 00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:51,560 Speaker 2: another one that I think. This one has pointed out 720 00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,080 Speaker 2: to me by my wife. She sent me like an 721 00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:58,239 Speaker 2: Instagram video that someone had made of someone observing this 722 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:02,680 Speaker 2: particular example. And these are the Abraham Lake bubbles of Alberta. 723 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,640 Speaker 2: So I recommend looking up pictures of this, but one 724 00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,759 Speaker 2: might describe the scene here as you have a frozen lake. 725 00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:13,760 Speaker 2: So you have clear ice over the dark blue depths 726 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:17,880 Speaker 2: of the lake, but with strange white disks of different 727 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:22,960 Speaker 2: sizes trapped in the ice at different levels, often seemingly 728 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,759 Speaker 2: atop each other, as if in sequence, you know, kind 729 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,879 Speaker 2: of like a different altitudes within the ice. I've seen 730 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:32,840 Speaker 2: these formations compared to like a lava lamp before, except 731 00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:36,400 Speaker 2: there is no movement. Everything is frozen in place. Yeah. 732 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:40,000 Speaker 3: Wow, I absolutely see the lava lamp comparison. Yeah, it 733 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:46,320 Speaker 3: looks like a so underneath the relatively transparent frozen surface 734 00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:48,120 Speaker 3: of the lake. Yeah, it looks like it sort of 735 00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:50,400 Speaker 3: bubbles of wax suspended in time. 736 00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, the wax is a good example. So what 737 00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:56,560 Speaker 2: are these, Well, they are bubbles, but they are frozen 738 00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:01,160 Speaker 2: methane bubbles frozen in the ice. So the way this 739 00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:04,560 Speaker 2: works is you have organic matter like tree limbs and 740 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,080 Speaker 2: other plant matter that winds up on the bottom of 741 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:11,600 Speaker 2: the lake and that decomposes releases methane when the temperature drops, 742 00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,320 Speaker 2: you know, it drops fast enough that rising methane bubbles 743 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,360 Speaker 2: become frozen in the freezing water ice. I think the 744 00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:19,919 Speaker 2: other way to clearly picture it is imagine the water 745 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:24,200 Speaker 2: freezing over at the top, methane rising up and becoming 746 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:28,200 Speaker 2: trapped in these kind of like flattened bubbles beneath the ice, 747 00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:32,040 Speaker 2: and then the water around those squashed bubbles freezes, the 748 00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:35,400 Speaker 2: ice cap thickens, more bubbles rise up and become trapped 749 00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:40,160 Speaker 2: underneath the even thicker ice, and this continues, creating this 750 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,320 Speaker 2: multi layered lava lamp kind of appearance. 751 00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:46,520 Speaker 3: And I guess we can only see it because of 752 00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:50,040 Speaker 3: the relatively transparent surface of the ice on the lake here. 753 00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:52,560 Speaker 2: That's right. That's what I've read here is that this 754 00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:55,200 Speaker 2: sort of thing goes on in lakes all over the place, 755 00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:57,120 Speaker 2: and anytime you have a frozen lake environment and you 756 00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:01,680 Speaker 2: potentially have these bubbles because you have or it matter, tree, limbs, 757 00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:05,799 Speaker 2: plant matter, whatever at the bottom releasing methane, and then 758 00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:08,000 Speaker 2: if there's freezing going on, you're going to have these 759 00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,759 Speaker 2: bubbles trapped in there. But it seems to be a 760 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,160 Speaker 2: combination of things with this particular lake. So first of all, 761 00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:17,239 Speaker 2: there might be like enhance concentration of it for one 762 00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:20,879 Speaker 2: reason or another, but also you have water clarity that's 763 00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:24,800 Speaker 2: really good and a tendency for strong winds to blow 764 00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:30,120 Speaker 2: snow off the surface, kind of you know, enhancing the visibility. 765 00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:30,200 Speaker 3: Of the bubbles. 766 00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,479 Speaker 2: I see, so I would I haven't seen these in person, 767 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:35,480 Speaker 2: have only seen images and videos, So I would love 768 00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:39,040 Speaker 2: to hear from anyone who has ventured out to see 769 00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:42,799 Speaker 2: the Abraham Lake bubbles of Alberta, or if you've witnessed 770 00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:46,200 Speaker 2: similar phenomenon in other frozen lakes. 771 00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:50,880 Speaker 3: You know, it looks really cool, absolutely does beautiful. 772 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,680 Speaker 2: Even yeah, though also so cold, so cold. 773 00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,240 Speaker 3: Looking makes me want a well done potato. 774 00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:00,680 Speaker 2: All right, Well on that, I believe we're going to 775 00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:02,759 Speaker 2: go ahead and close out this episode, but we'd love to 776 00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:05,520 Speaker 2: hear from everyone out there, especially on this one. A 777 00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:07,760 Speaker 2: lot of you are going to have examples of strange 778 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:10,239 Speaker 2: eyes formations that we've talked about here, and you may 779 00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:13,120 Speaker 2: have pictures you want to send in and yeah, send away, 780 00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:15,680 Speaker 2: we'd love to hear from you. Also, there may be 781 00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:17,560 Speaker 2: other forms of ice you want to bring to our attention. 782 00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,200 Speaker 2: That's also fair game. Just a reminder that stuff to 783 00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:23,399 Speaker 2: blow your mind. It's primarily a science podcast, with core 784 00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,479 Speaker 2: episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Mister Mail on Monday short 785 00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:29,240 Speaker 2: form episode on Wednesdays and on Fridays, we set aside 786 00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:31,560 Speaker 2: most serious concerns to just talk about a weird film 787 00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:32,920 Speaker 2: on Weird House Cinema. 788 00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:36,560 Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 789 00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:38,480 Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us 790 00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:40,920 Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 791 00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:43,000 Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 792 00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:45,600 Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 793 00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:54,040 Speaker 3: your Mind dot com. 794 00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:57,120 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 795 00:45:57,200 --> 00:45:59,959 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 796 00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:16,440 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listen to your favorite shows.