1 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: Rip Current is a production of iHeart Podcasts. 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 2: The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those 3 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 2: of the host. 4 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:10,119 Speaker 3: Producers or parent company. 5 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 4: Listener discretion is it find. 6 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 3: On March twenty seventh, nineteen ninety five, Judy Barry was 7 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 3: interviewed by Barry Vogel on his radio show Radio Curious. 8 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 3: She talked about the impact of the purchase of Pacific 9 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 3: Lumber Company by a Texas financier named Charles Hurwitz through 10 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:38,239 Speaker 3: his company Maxim. Under this new ownership, Pacific Lumber had 11 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 3: changed its timber harvesting philosophy, massively speeding up the rate 12 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 3: of cutting off redwoods. This is from that interview which 13 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 3: you mention is a greedy billionaire she's talking about Hurwitz. 14 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 5: The issue isn't sue we could a wilderness area of 15 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 5: the old books already been cut. The issue should we 16 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 5: cut the last four percent? And the answer is absolutely no. 17 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 5: If you think of the importance, the biological importance of 18 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 5: this last island of intact redwood wilderness compared to the 19 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 5: claim of this greedy billionaire of it absolutely pales by comparison. 20 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 5: So we're talking about the last remnant of something that's 21 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 5: almost gone. And I think the private property rights claim 22 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 5: absolutely pale in comparison to that. 23 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 4: Well, let's put this into perspective as to huof was 24 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 4: here of this kind of forests two or three hundred 25 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 4: years ago. 26 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 5: Well, one hundred and forty years ago, there were two 27 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 5: million acres of old growth parts and said Mandocino County 28 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 5: was the heart of this ecosystem. And we certainly know 29 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 5: what's left here, which is nearly nothing. 30 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 3: On this episode of RIP Current, Charles Hurwitz By'specific lumber 31 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 3: company under dubious circumstances, and the law largest tract of 32 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 3: old growth redwoods in private hands comes under threat. I'm 33 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 3: Toby Ball, and this is RIP Current Episode three, Scotia, 34 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 3: Judy Berry, and Darryl Churney and Earth. First fight against 35 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 3: overcutting in the North Coast involved a handful of large 36 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 3: timber corporations, including Louisiana Pacific and Georgia Pacific, but the 37 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 3: most high profile, the most emblematic of their adversaries was 38 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 3: Pacific Lumber, a historically family run operation which was purchased 39 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:47,239 Speaker 3: in nineteen eighty five by Texas financier Charles Hurwitz through 40 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 3: his company Max Sam. In many important ways, this is 41 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 3: a simple story, one man's greed leading to the destruction 42 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 3: of a unique and fragile ecosystem. The destruction wasn't in 43 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 3: the service of anything other than the accumulation of wealth. 44 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 3: What was going to happ into the wood after the 45 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 3: trees were felled and sold wasn't a part of the equation, 46 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 3: And it was the story of a venerable, responsibly run 47 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:19,359 Speaker 3: local business that was bought by an outsider and changed 48 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 3: into something completely different, almost the opposite of the company 49 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 3: that had been around for over a century. But of course, 50 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 3: nothing is ever that simple. Here's the thing about the 51 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 3: Redwoods in northern California. Prior to the mass influx of 52 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 3: people brought by the gold rush in the mid eighteen hundreds, 53 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 3: it was vast, more than two hundred million acres according 54 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 3: to the Save the Redwoods League, that's three times the 55 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 3: size of Rhode Island. Less than one hundred and fifty 56 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 3: years later, commercial timber had cleared ninety five percent of 57 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 3: this land. Prior to that, the original inhabitants of this 58 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 3: area had not engaged in felling trees. 59 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: The native groups Kalawao Iraq, had been living in the 60 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 1: forest for centuries, and they were using the forest in 61 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: their way. They were living off all the things that 62 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: the ocean and the forest would provide to them, and 63 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: they used redwood trees that had fallen down to harvest 64 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: some lumber that they used to make houses and sweat 65 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 1: houses and other products. 66 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 3: This is James Michael Buckley, author of City of Wood, 67 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:39,279 Speaker 3: San Francisco and the Architecture of the Redwood Lumber Industry. 68 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: I'm an architectural historian, and I'm particularly interested in the 69 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 1: link between the built environment, the architecture, and the natural environment. 70 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: And so suddenly with the gold Rush, everyone's coming to California, 71 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: and you get people from the East Coast, especially people 72 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 1: who have been working in the lumber industry, come across 73 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: these massive trees, and you can only imagine what they 74 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,919 Speaker 1: must have thought when they came here and said, Wow, 75 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: this is a windfall, but I wonder how we're going 76 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 1: to get them down and transport them. So really there 77 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 1: was a lot of innovation early on. 78 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 3: You had people who were familiar. 79 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 1: With the industry and they begin to think about how 80 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 1: they could try to make money out of this by 81 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 1: taking these trees down. 82 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 3: And it wasn't just the sheer size of the trees. 83 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 3: Redwood's had certain properties that made them especially attractive as 84 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:33,919 Speaker 3: building materials. 85 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: Redwood, as we know, big big trees, but also they 86 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: grow for a very long time, so each tree has 87 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 1: an immodious amount of potential product in it, and the 88 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: trees grow very straight for a very long time, so 89 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:51,280 Speaker 1: there are no knot holes in most of the trees. 90 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,919 Speaker 1: So that is an incredible benefit to someone who wants 91 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 1: to use it for construction other things. And then the 92 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: cannons in the wood will both repel insects and are 93 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:08,359 Speaker 1: somewhat fireproof, so this becomes an ideal construction material for 94 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 1: people in San Francisco and else run in California saying 95 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 1: pine is fine, but this is even better for the 96 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:14,719 Speaker 1: kind of stuff you want to do. 97 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 3: As more people flooded into San Francisco, the demand for 98 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:22,600 Speaker 3: redwood timber increased at a great rate. 99 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: There are redwood trees all around the Bay area, but 100 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: those quickly get used up. There are redwood trees down 101 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 1: towards Santa Cruz. We know Redwood City was a port 102 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:34,599 Speaker 1: where a lot of that material came through to build 103 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 1: San Francisco and Oakland, but really the focus quickly it 104 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 1: came up on Mendocino, Humboldt County and del Nord County 105 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 1: as a basis that there were the richest material and 106 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: the most profit that could be made. 107 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 3: This began a century long process of technological innovations, business consolidation, 108 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 3: and massive deforestation. You could hear much more about this 109 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:01,479 Speaker 3: story in the bonus episode featuring the full interview with 110 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:05,479 Speaker 3: James Michael Buckley. One of the ironies of this century 111 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 3: of timber harvesting is that responsible stewardship could actually leave 112 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 3: companies vulnerable. 113 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: This is what ultimately causes the problem. As you know 114 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: because Pacific Lumber is one of the major practitioners and 115 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: sustained yield, and it continue this over time. 116 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 3: The idea behind sustained yield practices is that you restrict 117 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 3: your harvesting so that you don't deplete your resources over time. 118 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 3: This is more expensive in the short term, but ensures 119 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 3: that you can maintain harvests over the long run. Put plainly, 120 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 3: you don't cut all the trees down. You leave enough 121 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 3: so that you have a consistent supply of mature trees. 122 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 3: It makes sense for a business that's planning on being 123 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 3: around for a while, but if you don't plan to 124 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 3: be in the business for long. Clearcutting makes more short 125 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 3: term economic sense cut and run. 126 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: And Pacific Lumber stays in the same family ownership throughout 127 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: most of the twentieth century, whereas other companies because of depression, 128 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: they get bought up by these national companies Georgia Pacific 129 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 1: and Louisiana Pacific and they're more put into their portfolio 130 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: of properties. But Pacific Lumber really stands out because they 131 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: have this beautiful company Town, Wi Scotia, because they have 132 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: good relationship with their workers, because they've invested so much, 133 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: they continue with the sustained yield practices over time. 134 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 3: Pacific Lumber was a family run operation. That family was 135 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 3: the Murphy's. 136 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:44,559 Speaker 6: The Pacific Lumber Company had been operating in Humboldt County, 137 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:48,320 Speaker 6: California for almost sixty years when as Murphy took control 138 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 6: of the company in the nineteen thirties. Pl had been 139 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 6: run by his grandfather since nineteen oh five. Under as 140 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 6: Murphy's leadership, the Pacific Lumber Company amassed over two hundred 141 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 6: thousand acres of land in Humble County. I'm engaged in 142 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 6: long term sustainable, community oriented logging. As Murphy's son Woody 143 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 6: has said that at any given time, the company was 144 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 6: growing more trees than they were harvesting, promising job security 145 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 6: and perpetuity. 146 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 2: But I think it was also like just a very 147 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 2: hardcore like business strategy. 148 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 3: Author of Defending Giants, Darren Space. 149 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 2: Selective harvesting can be seen in that regard as them 150 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 2: trying to effectively like corner the market. Eventually, if there's 151 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 2: only a finite inventory of giant redwoods on the tiny 152 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 2: strip of land in California where they can grow, and 153 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 2: you're the company that holds out longest before you cut 154 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 2: them all down, you are poised to be able to 155 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 2: extract the greatest prices for that lumber in the end. 156 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 2: And if it prevents you from being entangled in a 157 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 2: bunch of public relations nightmares or legislative nightmares, that's good 158 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:02,679 Speaker 2: for business too. And so wow, it was portrayed as 159 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 2: just this pure like we're just good community members thing, 160 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 2: which is true. But I think also it's a business strategy, 161 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 2: and a good business strategy if you're a businessman. But 162 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 2: that also leaves to open the possibility of, oh yeah, well, 163 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:17,319 Speaker 2: if it's a business strategy, then in the end they 164 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 2: will all get cut down. 165 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 3: We opened this season with the story of a protest 166 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 3: billed as the Day of the Living Dead Hurwitzes that 167 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 3: took place in nineteen eighty eight in a town called Scotia. 168 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 3: The reason why we started the season there and the 169 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 3: reason why the protest was held there is because the 170 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 3: town was both the literal and metaphorical center for the 171 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 3: redwood deforestation that Judy Berry and Earthfirst were resisting. Scotia 172 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 3: was a company town built, owned and run by Pacific 173 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:53,199 Speaker 3: Lumber Company. 174 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 7: My name is Michael Waters, and I'm a freelance writer. 175 00:10:56,480 --> 00:11:00,080 Speaker 7: I've been interested in the history of company towns, which 176 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 7: were obviously a really significant part of the economy in 177 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 7: the geography in the early twentieth century and then has 178 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 7: since mostly fallen off. I think I just had some 179 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 7: question about, well, are there any company towns left? What 180 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 7: happened to the most recent ones, and went down as 181 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 7: rabbit hole. That landed me in Scotia, which was certainly 182 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 7: not the last one of the last like fully functioning 183 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 7: company towns up until two thousand and six. And the 184 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 7: fact that Scotia, which was founded as this town specifically 185 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 7: for the lumber industry, where you know, every resident worked 186 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 7: for Pacific Lumber for one hundred plus years. In two 187 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 7: thousand and six changed hands and was taken over by 188 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 7: a hedge fund in New York. The fact of just 189 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,959 Speaker 7: like a hedge fund kind of accidentally owning an entire 190 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:53,679 Speaker 7: small town in northern California that like really like raised 191 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 7: something for me and that I was like, well, like 192 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 7: what has happened? 193 00:11:55,840 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 3: Since Scotia is very small. It was an unincorporated, privately 194 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 3: owned town, so there was no census data of PA 195 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 3: Scotia specifically from nineteen eighty, but news reports at the 196 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 3: time put the population around one thousand. The town encompasses 197 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:17,079 Speaker 3: less than a square mile of land. 198 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:21,680 Speaker 7: And it's like these like craftsmensyle houses. They're all very 199 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 7: specific and distinctive colors that have been the result of 200 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 7: you know, like policies from Pacific Lumber setting out these 201 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 7: standards for design over the last one hundred plus years. 202 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 7: And there's not a ton in town. There's like a 203 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 7: grocery store, there's a city hall, there's this hotel building 204 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 7: that you know once was where visiting executives from Pacific 205 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 7: Lumber would come and stay, but it is mostly just 206 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 7: around two hundred and fifty small houses just kind of 207 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 7: dotting this landscape, and you know, it's in the background 208 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 7: of this large mountain range and you can see some 209 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 7: of the redwoods in the distance. But it has this 210 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 7: really like tiny insular feeling that I think is exacerbated 211 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 7: by the fact that you know, on either end you 212 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 7: have just the freeway, and so like when you're there, 213 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 7: you kind of feel like you're in this I don't know, 214 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 7: neverland of some sort. 215 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:20,319 Speaker 3: Again, author Darren Space. 216 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 2: Pacific Lumber, beginning in the nineteen twenties, actively promoted itself 217 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 2: as a company that like took care of the town 218 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 2: and the community in the forest. By the nineteen fifties, 219 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 2: Life magazine was publishing articles about this like bucolic ideal 220 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 2: company town where the mayor is an employee of the company, 221 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 2: and so all the company workers have to do is 222 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 2: like call up the mayor when they're like plumbing goes 223 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 2: out or they're you know, their citing needs some new painting, 224 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 2: and the mayor rushes over to like hire people to 225 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 2: paint it up. Their publicized narrative about themselves it's not unfactual, 226 00:13:57,640 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 2: journalist Mike Genoa. 227 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:03,719 Speaker 8: So it was good pay. The company took care of 228 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 8: its workers. They provided housing at minimal cost, scholarships for 229 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 8: sons and daughters of employees to go on to college. 230 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 8: I mean it was almost nirvana. 231 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 3: But this arrangement came to an end in nineteen eighty 232 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 3: five when Pacific Lumber drew the attention of Texas corporate 233 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 3: raider Charles Hurwitz. It would change everything on the North 234 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 3: Coast after the break. Because of decades of sustained gild forestry, 235 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 3: Pacific Lumber owned the largest piece of existing old growth 236 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 3: redwood forest remaining in private hands. This, along with a 237 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 3: very small debt load and a pension fund with a 238 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 3: surplus of sixty million dollars, meant that the company was 239 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 3: more bad liable than at stock price accounted for. This 240 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 3: made it a target for corporate takeover. Charles Hurwitz was 241 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 3: ready to swoop. 242 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 2: So Charles Hurwitz, who's Houston financier, and he's actually one 243 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 2: of the earliest guys in the late sixties to try 244 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 2: to create a hedge fund. He was always interested in 245 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 2: the JP Morgan style of finance and institution building as 246 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 2: a kind of financial entrepreneur, finding companies that were vulnerable, 247 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 2: that had low debt and had big like inventories. Of 248 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 2: stuff that was valuable and that were susceptible to somebody 249 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 2: who would aggressively buy up stock and be able to 250 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 2: take it over and sell off the inventory to pay 251 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 2: off the loans and then turn the company into something else. 252 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 8: A couple of quick things about Hurwitz. One, he didn't 253 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 8: know one in or redwood from the and at the 254 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 8: time I didn't know much more than he did, but 255 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 8: anyone in the industry at the time I quickly learned 256 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 8: this was an asset rich company that had some of 257 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 8: the best redwood timberland anywhere, including a big chunk of 258 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 8: old growth redwood force. 259 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 3: Hurwitz's acquisition of Pacific Lumber was complicated and could actually 260 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 3: be a podcast of its own. I'll give you the basics. 261 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 3: Hurwitz used what is called a leveraged buyout to purchase 262 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 3: Pacific Lumber. What that means is that only a small 263 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 3: portion of the purchase amount was paid through existing money. 264 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 3: To fund the rest of the purchase price, Hurwitz, through 265 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 3: his company Maxam, issued high yield bonds, sometimes called junk bonds. 266 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 3: These are bonds that have a relatively high chance of default, 267 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 3: so they offer high interest rates to get people to 268 00:16:56,160 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 3: buy them. Krewitz used the money raised by these bonds 269 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 3: to fund the rest of the purchase price. When the 270 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,679 Speaker 3: deal was finally made, Hurwitz had spent one hundred and 271 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,159 Speaker 3: fifty million dollars of existing money and seven hundred and 272 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 3: fifty million dollars he had raised through the bonds. That 273 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:18,400 Speaker 3: seven hundred and fifty million dollars was debt. It would 274 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,959 Speaker 3: have to be paid back, or at minimum the interest 275 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 3: earned on those bonds had to be paid every year. 276 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 3: Pacific Lumber instantly went from a company with little debt 277 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,400 Speaker 3: to one that was seven hundred and fifty million dollars 278 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:37,119 Speaker 3: in debt. Here's Judy Barry again during her conversation with 279 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:41,199 Speaker 3: Barry Vogel on the radio show Radio Curious. 280 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 5: When Charles Hurwoods took over Pacific Lumber and now is 281 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 5: where he called back his favor from Michael Milkin. So 282 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:52,159 Speaker 5: these two deals are very closely related. In response for 283 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 5: him buying Michael Milkin's junk bond, now Michael milkon bought 284 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 5: his junk bond to take over Pacific Lumbers, so this 285 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 5: is a direct involvement. Also, Ivan Boski dressed Ulbernon, who 286 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 5: who of Core for Criminals did this seal. 287 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 3: Judy mentioned two people, Michael Milkin and Ivan Boski. They 288 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 3: don't play a huge part in this story, but they 289 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 3: were critical to Hurwitz in buying Pacific Lumber. They are 290 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 3: also two of the most notorious white collar criminals of 291 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 3: the nineteen eighties. Milkin essentially founded the junk bond market 292 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 3: and in a four year period in the late nineteen 293 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 3: eighties made about a billion dollars. He was then indicted 294 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 3: for securities fraud and racketeering before accepting a plea bargain 295 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:42,639 Speaker 3: that barred him for life from securities trading. Ivan Boski 296 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,479 Speaker 3: was one of the models for the character of Gordon 297 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 3: Gecko in the movie Wall Street. 298 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 9: Greed, for lack of a better word, is good, greed 299 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 9: is right. 300 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 3: He was a stock trader who was busted in nineteen 301 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 3: eighty six for inside trading and became an informant for 302 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:06,919 Speaker 3: the Securities and Exchange Commission. Among those he informed on 303 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 3: Michael Milkin. Bosky too went to jail and was banned 304 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 3: for life from trading securities. Hurwitz, Milkin, and Bosky personified greed. 305 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 2: This is like a well told story. Who and Charles 306 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:28,200 Speaker 2: Hurwitz first visited the mills at Scotia after the takeover 307 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 2: and meets with all of the workers inside the Redwood 308 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 2: Panel Line Theater in Scotia, and one of the workers 309 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 2: asked him, well, what are your intentions? What's your operating value? 310 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 2: And Hurwitz replies, well, I believe in the Golden rule. 311 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 3: He who has the gold rules. 312 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 8: So that set a shockwave through the North Coast timber industry. 313 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 8: The employees were stunned, of course, and they were even 314 00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 8: more stunned when they learned that he took money out 315 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 8: of the pinch and fun. 316 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:05,640 Speaker 2: By nineteen eighty five, when Hurwitz orchestrated the takeover Pacific Lumber. 317 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 2: This is where then the narrative starts to become a 318 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 2: part of folklore because many activists and old loggers, right, 319 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 2: they were like, well, there's the pre Hurwitz company, and 320 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 2: then the post Hurwitz company. And the pre Hurwitz company 321 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 2: was like good and took care of its workers and 322 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,640 Speaker 2: took care of the forest, and the post Hurwitz company 323 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 2: sought to destroy the forest. 324 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 3: Here's Judy Berry again on Radio curious. 325 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 5: He taken over a Pacific Lumber carrying this huge debt 326 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 5: of seven hundred and fifty million dollars. Now, the idea 327 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,159 Speaker 5: of a junk bond biot is that you buy a 328 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,919 Speaker 5: company that you don't really have the money to buy it, 329 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 5: but you're going to get the money by liquidating the 330 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,240 Speaker 5: assets of that company that you're taking over. And so 331 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 5: this is a very dubious scheme. 332 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 3: To start with. 333 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,639 Speaker 5: Well, the assets of this company happened to be the 334 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 5: last of the old growth redwoods. So when Charles Herewitz 335 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:04,400 Speaker 5: came in, he certainly took it over and he began 336 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 5: liquidating the acid. 337 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 3: This is Charles Heurwitz being questioned about Pacific Lumbers debt 338 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:18,639 Speaker 3: during a sworn deposition in a lawsuit alleging fraud in 339 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 3: the purchase of Pacific Lumber. You'll notice that while Judy 340 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:26,120 Speaker 3: characterizes the increase as being nearly tripled the old rate, 341 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 3: Herewitz says they doubled the cut, and we will later 342 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 3: hear another person say they didn't quite double the cut. 343 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 3: This is all framing, of course, and the increase in 344 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:39,239 Speaker 3: the cut was somewhere between double and triple, depending on 345 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:40,119 Speaker 3: how you count it. 346 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 1: But it was your belief, was it not that the 347 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: principal value of Pacific Lumber at that time was in 348 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 1: the timber right. 349 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,439 Speaker 9: The value of the company is and its ability to 350 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 9: throw all cash flow, and we stated that we thought by. 351 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 3: Doubling the cut of the cut that. 352 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 9: Its cash flow could and should go up significantly. So 353 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:10,120 Speaker 9: this was a significant change and the way the company 354 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 9: had been operated in order to pay off and service its. 355 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: Death at the time that you acquired, and. 356 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 4: It didn't have much debtitay, that's correct. 357 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 9: So the death that you're talking about servicing is the 358 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 9: debt that was placed on the company by virtue of 359 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 9: its acquisition by Maxim. 360 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 10: Correct, that's correct. 361 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 3: Musician and author Larry Livermore. 362 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,880 Speaker 4: I was furious. I mean I wrote about it a lot, 363 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 4: and I was never a big fan of the capitalist corporations, 364 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,640 Speaker 4: and I just thought it was outrageous. I mean, they 365 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 4: were basically borrowing money against all these assets, which pretty 366 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 4: much required them to cut down as much as possible, 367 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 4: and the redwood we're already at a tipping point. 368 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,919 Speaker 3: This is Dave Bertz, a Jaeger Creek resident, in the 369 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:11,640 Speaker 3: documentary film Voices of Humboldt County. 370 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 11: It was an amazingly good company. I have a background 371 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,119 Speaker 11: in business, and they broke every business rule I knew. 372 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 11: By doing the right thing. After the takeover by Maxim, 373 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:25,399 Speaker 11: there's been a radical change and the sense of American 374 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 11: multinational corporation has arrived and left a small town ownership behind. 375 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 3: There's a narrative here that Pacific Lumber was an idyllic 376 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 3: company that would have continued to treat its workers well 377 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,439 Speaker 3: and practice sustainable forestry if it had not been for 378 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:49,399 Speaker 3: Hurwitz's takeover. And while that is undoubtedly partly true, the 379 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 3: company was already starting to change the way it started 380 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 3: the forest even before nineteen eighty five. This was largely 381 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 3: down to the president of Pacific Lumber posing Australian named 382 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 3: John Campbell. 383 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 2: I mean, he's kind of a really fascinating character. We 384 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 2: never will know how much of it is true, but 385 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 2: the lore around John Campbell is he was, you know, 386 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:14,719 Speaker 2: a surfer from Australia and he ran and opened up 387 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,680 Speaker 2: what he said was Sydney's first wine bar in the 388 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 2: nineteen seventies, he alleged, and there's no way of verifying this, 389 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 2: but I think it's kind of awesome Lord that he 390 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 2: and his buddies were the first people to surf the 391 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 2: Cornish coast off of England. And then he moved to 392 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,399 Speaker 2: northern California and married his wife, who was part of 393 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 2: the like Murphy family who owned the Pacific Lumber Company 394 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 2: and became the foreman of the mill. 395 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,399 Speaker 3: Campbell worked his way up the corporate ladder after the 396 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 3: Max sam takeover, Herwitz made him vice president and then 397 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 3: president and CEO of Pacific Lumber. 398 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 2: And he was this huge guy. I think he was 399 00:24:54,440 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 2: like six foot three, you know, athletic, funny, incredibly savvy individual, 400 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,640 Speaker 2: but who thought about things in terms of cost benefit 401 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:08,920 Speaker 2: analysis and efficiencies. And that was the way that he 402 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 2: approached and looked at businesses, and especially like the lumber business, 403 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,879 Speaker 2: of what's the most efficient way and how do we 404 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,400 Speaker 2: like sustain the industry and the company for as long 405 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 2: as possible. And so I think he was a firm 406 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 2: believer in the idea of sustain yield and sustainable forestry, 407 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 2: but not like forest ecosystems, just in terms of trees 408 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 2: and lumber. How do you continue to grow and rego 409 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 2: trees that you can harvest and turn into lumber. But 410 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:40,919 Speaker 2: wasn't as attuned to the ecologies of old growth or 411 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 2: second growth for us. 412 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 3: Even before Hurwitz, Campbell had come to support a new 413 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:51,880 Speaker 3: timber harvest strategy that involved clearcutting small tracts of trees 414 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 3: instead of felling individual trees surrounded by forest, if. 415 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 2: We just focus on clearcutting small areas and rotating them 416 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,120 Speaker 2: and then switching the business over from old growth redwood 417 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 2: lumber at some point to second growth. For him, that 418 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:11,199 Speaker 2: was the business strategy. And so it wasn't entirely the 419 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 2: case that like Hurwitz came in and then demanded that 420 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 2: this change happen, because he had a willing partner in 421 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 2: John Campbell, who was like, yeah, this is what we 422 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 2: should be doing now. The massive junk bond debt provided 423 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 2: the exigency for Hurwitz and the Maxim board to want 424 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 2: to accelerate that clear cutting really quickly to be able 425 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,120 Speaker 2: to pay off that you know, nine hundred million dollar 426 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 2: junk bond debt. But those actions were already kind of 427 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:36,919 Speaker 2: in motion to some degree or another. 428 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 3: This is John Campbell talking about the increased rate of cutting. 429 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,400 Speaker 12: Did the production rate change when Maxim bought this company, 430 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:52,119 Speaker 12: I question it did, but it increased. We almost doubled 431 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 12: the hobvest. Not quite double, we almost doubled it. And yes, 432 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 12: it was to pay down debt, and no question about it. 433 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,120 Speaker 3: With the huge debt and an obligation to at least 434 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 3: pay off the interest on the bonds each year sustainable 435 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 3: forestry at Pacific Lumber was abandoned. The trees would be 436 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 3: abandoned to fund predatory capitalism. This change did provide short 437 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 3: term benefits for Pacific Lumber workers. 438 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 2: Initially, it seemed like the loggers and the mill workers 439 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 2: were like enthused about more hours available, more over time available. 440 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 2: There's a real thing there, right, when all of a 441 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 2: sudden you're able to like buy new pickup trucks and 442 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 2: day to day life is more comfortable, right, that's a 443 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 2: real incentive for folks, you know. And that's why I 444 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 2: think relatively few of the laggers or x laggers decided 445 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:47,120 Speaker 2: to align themselves with the environmental movement. Right now, things 446 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 2: are good for me financially and their stability, and the 447 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 2: logging industry has always been an industry where like boom 448 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:57,639 Speaker 2: and bust, and we don't know how long this is 449 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 2: going to last, so let's ride it out because who knows. 450 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 2: And we may be accelerating that, but we don't know. 451 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 2: I get it for sure. 452 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 3: But the math isn't hard. If you double or triple 453 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 3: the rate that you are cutting, you're gonna run out 454 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 3: of trees much faster, and when the trees are gone, 455 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,360 Speaker 3: so is the timber industry at its jobs. 456 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 13: There is very little awareness that it might not be 457 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 13: the best thing. And you know, it's about survival. 458 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 3: Poet and author Crawdad Nelson. 459 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:34,919 Speaker 13: You grew up in a small town. The mill is 460 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 13: the only thing option for a decent living, and there's 461 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 13: pride in the work too. They invest their personality in it. 462 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 13: So if you threaten that, or you threaten the growth 463 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 13: of it or the sustainability of it, it's something that's 464 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 13: taken very personally. It was, you know, big picture of 465 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 13: economics and all, but it was very personal for people. 466 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 3: Eighty eight, when Judy arrives in Willets on California's north coast, 467 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 3: the dynamics are in place. Pacific Lumber is cutting at 468 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 3: an unsustainable pace in the largest remaining tract of privately 469 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 3: owned redwoods on the planet. Local timber workers are enjoying 470 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 3: short term benefits as they work more over time and 471 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 3: make more money, and it's clear to many people that 472 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 3: this is going to eventually end up with a clear 473 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 3: cut forest and a devastated industry. 474 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 13: To me, it was like it was obviously what was happening, 475 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 13: what was going on there and why they were doing it, 476 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 13: But you could see that, you know, there had to 477 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 13: be a limit to how far they could go with it. 478 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 13: And you know, all my family would would say, no, 479 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 13: it's cut it all, that's what it's that's what it's 480 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 13: there for. But I felt like it might be wiser 481 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 13: to start slowing down the cut is on that old growth. 482 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 3: Especially again author James Michael Buckley. 483 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 1: Let's talk to the say and yield, let's move into 484 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 1: clear cutting, let's just get it out there and go. 485 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: And then of course alerts people who are concerned about 486 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 1: the environment to the fact that this is not only 487 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: wasting away our forest, it's creating a lot of problems 488 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,960 Speaker 1: in the rivers and erosion, and begins the whole process 489 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 1: of trying to stop this kind of development. 490 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 3: And leading that process are Judy Barry, Darryl Churney and 491 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 3: the radical environmental group earth First Next Time on Rip Current. 492 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,959 Speaker 10: Rip Current was written and hosted by Toby Ball. Our 493 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 10: executive producers are Trevor Young and Matt Frederick, with supervising 494 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 10: producer remet el Kyali and producers Nomes Griffin and Jesse Funk. 495 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 10: Original music by Jess Setoff. Our voice actor for Judy 496 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 10: Barry is Gina Rikicky. Editing and sound design by Nomes Griffin, 497 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 10: remat El, Kylie and Jesse Funk. The show is mixed 498 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 10: by Kali. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 499 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 10: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.