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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight, or.

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Speaker 1: Showed us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me. Trust me.

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Speaker 4: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 5: I've never lived.

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Speaker 6: To you, If you think.

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Speaker 2: That one person has all the answers, don't welcome to

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Speaker 2: trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation

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Speaker 2: from two kids who've actually experienced it. I am Lolah

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Speaker 2: Blanc adult kid, and my co adult kid is Megan Elizabeth,

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Speaker 2: but she is out this week for the intro, but

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Speaker 2: don't worry, she is totally present for the interview, which

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Speaker 2: is a very exciting interview because today our guests are

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Speaker 2: Jill Dugger, now known as Jill Dillard and her husband

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Speaker 2: Derek Dillard, members of the Dougger family, once stars of

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Speaker 2: reality show such as nineteen Kids Accounting, and now authors

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Speaker 2: of the new memoir Counting the Cost. Jill's going to

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Speaker 2: discuss what it was like being a member of the

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Speaker 2: enormous Dugger family, as well as the strictly controlling fundamentalist church,

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Speaker 2: the Institute in Basic Life Principles or IVLP.

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Speaker 6: Jill will tell us what it was like being on

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Speaker 6: TV at.

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Speaker 2: Such a young age, how her dad convinced the family

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Speaker 2: that being on the show was ministry for their church

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Speaker 2: and therefore none of the kids needed to get paid

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Speaker 2: while he made millions, and what it was like for

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Speaker 2: her and Derek having their first date on camera. We'll

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Speaker 2: hear about how Jill was tricked into signing a contract

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Speaker 2: she didn't know existed, the inherent coercive nature of being

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Speaker 2: on a reality show, and why the show was rebranded

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Speaker 2: after sealed records were illegally released publicly describing abuse that

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Speaker 2: she experienced without her consent. Plus the Megan Kelly interviewed

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Speaker 2: Jill was pressured into doing, how outing people's trauma against

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Speaker 2: their will can be re traumatizing and isn't good, and

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Speaker 2: whether Jill has hope of reconnecting with her family. What

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Speaker 2: we are not going to talk about a whole lot

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Speaker 2: today is Josh Dugger's sexual abuse of his family members

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Speaker 2: or his child pornography charges which he is currently in

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Speaker 2: prison for Josh is jill brother if you do not know,

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Speaker 2: And Jill talks a little bit about Josh in the book,

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Speaker 2: so you can go ahead and read some of that

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Speaker 2: if you want to.

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Speaker 6: Pick up the book.

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Speaker 2: She does, of obviously denounce his behavior unequivocally, as do we.

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Speaker 2: But this really isn't what the story that they were

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Speaker 2: telling was about. They're really telling a story about a

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Speaker 2: coercive family dynamic, a coercive production. Even when it's not

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Speaker 2: the individuals of the production who are necessarily being blatantly abusive,

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Speaker 2: it's still sort of the nature of the system that's

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Speaker 2: set up there. And then all of course, within the

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Speaker 2: context of the family being members of the IBLP Church, which,

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Speaker 2: as we know from our earlier episodes many described as

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Speaker 2: a cult.

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Speaker 6: Their leader was a sexual abuser himself.

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Speaker 2: So there's a lot of stuff happening. It's an intersection

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Speaker 2: of a lot of very interesting power dynamics, imbalances of power,

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Speaker 2: overreaches of control, all of the things that we talk

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Speaker 2: about here on this podcast that you are listening to.

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Speaker 6: Trust me, Megan and I I've been wanting.

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Speaker 2: To do a reality show episode for a long time,

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Speaker 2: and it's actually been really hard to find someone, just

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Speaker 2: because there are so many people who probably would speak

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Speaker 2: out but are under nda for like a million I can't.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how many millions these contracts are at

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Speaker 2: right now, but at least a million dollars. If you

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Speaker 2: speak out against a reality show and reveal the secrets,

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Speaker 2: you will get sued up the ass. So it's just

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Speaker 2: been a difficult thing to do a real episode on,

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Speaker 2: and now we have one.

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Speaker 6: So I'm very excited.

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Speaker 2: So without further ado, because let's be honest, if I'm

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Speaker 2: not doing a culty's thing, why am I still talking?

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Speaker 2: You want to hear the interview? Why don't we just

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Speaker 2: do it? Okay, we're doing it.

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Speaker 6: I'm doing it. Here we go.

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Speaker 2: Welcome Jill Dillard formerly known as Jill Duggar and Derek

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Speaker 2: Dillard too.

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Speaker 6: Trust me. Thank you so much for being with us.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having us.

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Speaker 5: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: So, Jill, you grew up obviously in the Dugger family.

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Speaker 6: Can you just give us a brief overview of.

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Speaker 2: What that upbringing was like in terms of what kind

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Speaker 2: of the restrictions were like, what the lifestyle was like.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I grew up as the fourth born of

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Speaker 3: nineteen children in the Duggar family, and a lot of

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Speaker 3: people would know us from the reality show that was

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Speaker 3: on TLC for many years, nineteen kids in counting. Kind

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Speaker 3: of the name grew and changed as the show as

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Speaker 3: the more kids were being born, and my family was

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Speaker 3: part of a strict group called the Institute and Basic

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Speaker 3: Life Principles or their homeschool program Advanced Training Institute iblp

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Speaker 3: ATI Bill Gothard.

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Speaker 5: So lots of acronyms.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I would characterize it as a like I

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Speaker 3: think it technically it's like a Fundamental Baptist, independent Fundamental

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Speaker 3: Baptist something like that. Probably it forms mostly with but

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Speaker 3: there were a lot of different Christian denominations in this group,

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Speaker 3: which eventually, growing up, became very legalistic, I feel like,

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Speaker 3: and made us have a lot of rules on us

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Speaker 3: as kids that I feel like were not necessarily Christian

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Speaker 3: or biblic Biblical, though they would quote Bible verses, they

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Speaker 3: kind of that was their own interpretation of it. So

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Speaker 3: like it kind of regulated a lot of things in

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Speaker 3: my life, whether it be how many kids were my family,

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Speaker 3: which wasn't to do with me, but my mom and dad,

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Speaker 3: like they had to have a certain not a certain

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Speaker 3: number of kids, but never stop having kids. And then

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Speaker 3: like we couldn't dance, we couldn't drink, we couldn't we

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Speaker 3: were They were very strict in like the music that

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Speaker 3: we listened to, the clothing that we wore, who our

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Speaker 3: friends were, we had to homeschool. Lots of different areas

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Speaker 3: of my life were kind of controlled by this.

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Speaker 7: And just to be clear, we still are believe that

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Speaker 7: children should not drink a child abus.

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Speaker 1: I think one of the most interesting concepts from this

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Speaker 1: religion is the umbrella of authority. I feel like that's

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Speaker 1: where a lot of people get tripped up and they're thinking,

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Speaker 1: could you say a little bit about what that is

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Speaker 1: and how that played out in your life.

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Speaker 3: Yes, So, looking at Gothard's teachings, I think that that

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Speaker 3: was the biggest problem I had with the whole thing.

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Speaker 3: Whenever I started to I guess you could say, like,

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Speaker 3: disentangle my faith. I love how my sister Ginger kind

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Speaker 3: of came up with that analogy of disentangling faith. So

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Speaker 3: he presented this idea of the authority principle, where basically

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Speaker 3: you have like these umbrellas of protection, so you have

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Speaker 3: got up here, then you've got the dad and the

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Speaker 3: mom and the kids, and anybody else government whoever is

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Speaker 3: in that lineup of authority, so kind of like a

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Speaker 3: chain of command or something. But the error that I

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Speaker 3: saw with that is when it's not just like, Okay,

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Speaker 3: we all know, like parents do have authority over their

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Speaker 3: children when they're in the home their kids. You tell

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Speaker 3: your kid to run out in the street, they should

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Speaker 3: listen to you. It's for their own good. But when

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Speaker 3: you carry that far into adulthood and into married life

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Speaker 3: and your family of origin, your parents still have this

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Speaker 3: authority over you and you go out from under that

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Speaker 3: because you're making decisions for your own life and your

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Speaker 3: own family. That's when it gets really really unhealthy and

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Speaker 3: toxic and harmful, is when you have this belief system

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Speaker 3: that if you step out from under that, then you're

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Speaker 3: opening yourself up to the fiery darts of the wicked

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Speaker 3: or evil or terrifying arm. Yeah, so they might not

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Speaker 3: always be preaching that from the pulpit, but that's what

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Speaker 3: they believe, because then they believe like, then you can

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Speaker 3: lead people under the other umbrellas under you astray, And

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Speaker 3: there's just so much control that comes into play.

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Speaker 2: And how old were you when your family and joined IBLP.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I was pretty young. I think my parents

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Speaker 3: before I was even born, went to some of the

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Speaker 3: seminars and stuff and really learned a lot from Bill Gothard.

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Speaker 3: But then I want to say I was like five whenever,

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Speaker 3: five or six somewhere in there. Whenever I went to

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Speaker 3: my very first ATI conference.

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Speaker 2: Wow, And what did you think of it? Did you

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Speaker 2: believe in it? Did you think it was exciting?

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Speaker 3: Like?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, what was that for you?

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Speaker 3: I felt like, oh, wow, like, finally there's somebody, there's

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Speaker 3: a group of people that doesn't make me feel so weird.

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Speaker 3: You know, they're kind of like me. And as a kid,

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Speaker 3: I think that's all that matters. When you're a kid,

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Speaker 3: you're like totally, I don't want to feel weird. I

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Speaker 3: want to feel cool, And this makes me feel.

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Speaker 2: That way you described in the book, which is great.

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Speaker 6: By the way, this idea.

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Speaker 2: Like model families being paraded on stage and like kind

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Speaker 2: of appearing to live perfectly. How do you think that

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Speaker 2: shaped like the culture of family? Isn't this idea of presentation?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? So they had in this IBLP group, especially specifically

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Speaker 3: at the ATI conferences when they had homeschool families gather

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Speaker 3: together once a year. They would have these model families

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Speaker 3: who might play instruments or sing a song or whatever

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Speaker 3: before the conference would start at the beginning of each

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Speaker 3: session or something. So it was kind of a demonstration

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Speaker 3: of hey, like this is what your family can achieve

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Speaker 3: or look like or whatever. And so but I think

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Speaker 3: to other families it kind of put that pressure on

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Speaker 3: them to kind of conform to this or it might

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Speaker 3: be inspirational. Some might say to like, oh, this is

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Speaker 3: what you can achieve, you know. So it's like this

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Speaker 3: is spared in between.

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Speaker 1: It's like model homes, like a mo family.

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Speaker 6: It's like a house.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, it's you this yeah, so but it yeah, it

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Speaker 8: definitely like puts this pressure on people of like, this

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Speaker 8: is what you're supposed to be and this is who

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Speaker 8: you can become.

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Speaker 3: But if you're then it becomes a thing like if

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Speaker 3: you're not measuring up then.

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Speaker 2: Right, right, if you're a human being who has a

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Speaker 2: flawed family, like every single person.

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Speaker 3: Which we knew. We knew these model families were not perfect,

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Speaker 3: but you know, they were the closest things.

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Speaker 2: Perfect, right, So this idea of obedience was very strong

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Speaker 2: in the religion and in the family as a result,

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Speaker 2: you mentioned how you were always supposed to say like

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Speaker 2: yes sir, no sir, But then another family. Can you

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Speaker 2: talk about the other family and what they added on

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Speaker 2: to that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So I remember going to one of these smaller

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Speaker 3: breakout session things one time in our local area. Somebody

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Speaker 3: was talking about an Ati model family was coming to

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Speaker 3: town and they were sharing how they had their kids

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Speaker 3: not just say like yes ma'am and yes sir, like

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Speaker 3: we do a lot of times here in the South,

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Speaker 3: but they tacked on to the end of it, yes ma'am,

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Speaker 3: I would be happy to or yes, or I would

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Speaker 3: be happy to. And I think it was like it

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Speaker 3: was intended to be like a harmless thing, just like

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Speaker 3: overly polite. But later, whenever I was thinking about it

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Speaker 3: and kind of disentangling things, I realized that for my people,

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Speaker 3: pleasing personality and all, how that could be seen as

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Speaker 3: not just a desire to please the person, but really

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Speaker 3: almost like a faking it to fake it till you

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Speaker 3: make it type thing where it's like you might be

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Speaker 3: really upset, but it's like forcing you to not be

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Speaker 3: accurate in your feelings.

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Speaker 1: Right in the book, I mean, you're referred to as

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Speaker 1: jilly muffa, and you're like one of the sweet jilly

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Speaker 1: muffin you're taking your.

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Speaker 6: Role as this helper. I know, I know you.

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Speaker 1: I truly I'm so happy for you. I'm just so

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Speaker 1: proud of you. And you are still You're so sweet

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Speaker 1: and but so brave. But you you really had this

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Speaker 1: role as a caretaker very much imprinted into who you were.

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Speaker 1: You're in Arkansas, which, yeah, it's kind of the already

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Speaker 1: a different family system than maybe some of us are

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Speaker 1: used to. Did you feel any autonomy whatsoever like or

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Speaker 1: were you just like waking up raising kids?

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Speaker 6: What was your life like?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? No, I had I had very happy childhood overall,

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Speaker 3: where I loved helping with my siblings. I loved like

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Speaker 3: the one on one times that my parents took because

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Speaker 3: they were very intentional parents. And it's not that they

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Speaker 3: got everything wrong. My parents did a lot of things right.

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Speaker 3: And there are a lot of things that I want

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Speaker 3: to emulate even in our own marriage and just child rearing.

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Speaker 3: We have three kids of our own, so but I've

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Speaker 3: also heard it said at a marriage conference that we

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Speaker 3: went to where they talked about just taking the things

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Speaker 3: from your family of origin and some things you might reject,

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Speaker 3: and some things you might reuse, and then other things

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Speaker 3: you might recycle. So sorry, sorry accept, reject and recycle

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Speaker 3: and so so some things, like from my childhood, I'll

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Speaker 3: say like, oh, I remember the times you know that

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Speaker 3: my mom would take us to the thrift store and

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Speaker 3: buy us pillowcases for each one of us so that

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Speaker 3: we could slide down the carpeted stairs at the house

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Speaker 3: that we were living at. Like all these fun memories

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Speaker 3: are my dad taking us on bike rides and really

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Speaker 3: trying to be intentional with spending time with his kids.

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Speaker 3: So there are a lot of happy memories, but those

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Speaker 3: do not invalidate also the harder memories, and both of

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Speaker 3: those feelings can coexist. And that's what I want people

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Speaker 3: to see too. It's like you don't have to just

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Speaker 3: focus on the positive or just focus on the negative.

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Speaker 3: You can have both experiences and they can both be

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Speaker 3: very real and valid feelings. So that's a process of

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Speaker 3: sorting through all those feelings. That's hard sometimes is when

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Speaker 3: you feel those conflicting things, You're like, wait, I can't

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Speaker 3: feel both of these, so I either have to be

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Speaker 3: like all in or all out. You're like, wait, no,

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Speaker 3: that's okay. Yeah, has really helped us with that as well.

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Speaker 9: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: I think that's a really important point.

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Speaker 2: I think for many of us coming out of childhoods

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Speaker 2: that have a controlling religion or controlling situation, we want

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Speaker 2: to kind of throw everything out and then kind of

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Speaker 2: feel guilty about the parts of us that liked certain

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Speaker 2: parts of the childhood or liked some of the feelings.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 6: So I think that's a really healthy perspective to take.

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Speaker 2: But it sounds like you are sort of, from a

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Speaker 2: very young age like a bit of a people pleaser,

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Speaker 2: wanting to be the most liked.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Help yeah, and helpful.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I definitely looked for ways to get my parents' approval

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Speaker 3: as well, to stand out or to be good. I

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Speaker 3: would kind of look around and oh, these kids who

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Speaker 3: are like trying to you know, certain ones of my

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Speaker 3: siblings might be acting up, and I'd be like, oh,

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to do that because I want to

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Speaker 3: get in good, you know.

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Speaker 2: So, can you tell us about when you kind of

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Speaker 2: first started being filmed and getting famous and what that

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Speaker 2: experience was like.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So when we first when my parents first allowed

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Speaker 3: cameras into our home, I remember feeling really awkward, and

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Speaker 3: they would be like, just be normal, do whatever you're doing,

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Speaker 3: and I'd be like, okay, like they are like right

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Speaker 3: there in my face, okay, like probably kind of Derek

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Speaker 3: when he came up on the scene and they're like,

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Speaker 3: I mean you.

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Speaker 9: Were he's been a relationship, doesn't mean there.

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Speaker 5: So yeah.

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Speaker 3: But then we eventually got used to it, and we

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Speaker 3: would jokingly say like, oh, the producers like our uncle

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Speaker 3: or the cameramen are like her cousins. They I mean,

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Speaker 3: they kind of became like family to us. But we

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Speaker 3: still knew the cameras were there. There was still this

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Speaker 3: like pseudo reality.

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Speaker 5: It's not they had an apartment like in town.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, but yeah yeah in Arkansas more than their homes.

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Speaker 2: But right, Derek, So did you also grow up in IBLP.

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Speaker 6: What was your religious boy?

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Speaker 5: I did not. I came from I grew up in

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Speaker 5: a Christian home.

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Speaker 7: We went to Southern Baptist Church. So deep down there

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Speaker 7: are probably like certain aspects that were very similar to

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Speaker 7: like because Joel and I have talked about this too,

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Speaker 7: because her parents shod always go to an independent, fundamental

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Speaker 7: Baptist church. But again, I think it goes back to

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Speaker 7: like the control and wanting to have a certain standard

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Speaker 7: for your own kids, which everyone should want to a

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Speaker 7: certain standard, but like control in a way you see

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Speaker 7: all these other kids in like the youth group at

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Speaker 7: church and think, we don't want our kids to do that,

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Speaker 7: or we don't want our kids to do this, so

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Speaker 7: we're going to just like once we get to that

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Speaker 7: point kind of in my view, like completely come away

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Speaker 7: from all that. But I just screw up in a

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Speaker 7: Southern Baptist church.

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Speaker 6: What were you homeschooled?

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Speaker 5: No?

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Speaker 7: I wasn't homeschool I think I was the only in

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Speaker 7: law or like even none of the in laws right now, or.

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Speaker 5: Public school all the way through. I think about that.

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Speaker 7: I was like, am I the only one of your

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Speaker 7: siblings spouses who is not like non public school at

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Speaker 7: any point?

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Speaker 5: And She's like, yeah, I think so.

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Speaker 7: One of the early red flags was when we were

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Speaker 7: experiencing a lot of conflict with the whole filming thing,

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Speaker 7: and when Jim Bob said, is this you Jill or

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Speaker 7: is this you Derek? You know you're leading your family astray, And.

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Speaker 5: We kind of go into that in the book a

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Speaker 5: little bit too, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Break, but Jill, so your dad kind of marketed this

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Speaker 2: show and the family being on the show as a ministry.

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Speaker 2: Can you talk about that a little bit and did

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Speaker 2: you agree?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So, growing up, it was definitely the show was

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Speaker 3: definitely marketed as the family ministry, and like, how could

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Speaker 3: we have ever achieved this on our own other than

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Speaker 3: but God bringing it to us and dropping it in

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Speaker 3: our laps and this is it was almost like, this

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Speaker 3: is such a miraculous thing that happened that we should

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Speaker 3: all be always grateful for it, and that's kind of

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Speaker 3: never question this. Yeah, that's kind of how it would

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Speaker 3: be spun. Anytime we did try to question it was, oh, well,

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Speaker 3: this is a ministry. Especially as we got older and

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Speaker 3: we were trying to create our own lives. You could

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Speaker 3: play either, you know, you could have the business hat

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Speaker 3: and then when it was convenient, but then the ministry

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Speaker 3: hat that was convenient. So that was a hard part.

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Speaker 7: Was like trying to grasp oil sometimes when you're trying

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Speaker 7: to like, yeah, something down and try and discuss things.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is like the one true religion and

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Speaker 1: they're trying to spread it to the entire world, correct,

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Speaker 1: is that?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 1: Yes, So that's kind of a heavy weight to have

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Speaker 1: on your shoulders as a child.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, like children are a blessing from the Lord

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Speaker 3: and this is our platform to be able to share that.

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Speaker 3: But then at the same time saying, well, your mom

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Speaker 3: had all these kids, so this is our show. You

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Speaker 3: guys are part of it, but you couldn't make any

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Speaker 3: money because this is something God brought us as the parents,

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Speaker 3: and it just Yeah, it was very warped thinking.

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Speaker 2: I think I can imagine believing that because the show

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Speaker 2: kind of happened randomly.

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Speaker 6: Right.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't like your dad was seeking out being on

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Speaker 2: a reality show.

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Speaker 3: And that's literally what you would say. I didn't. We

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Speaker 3: didn't go looking for this. God brought this to us,

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Speaker 3: and look how many people we've impacted.

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Speaker 2: Right, And did you know that he was making money

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Speaker 2: or did you kind of assume, like what did you

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Speaker 2: think about that?

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Speaker 6: At first?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we knew that there was money being made and

395
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Speaker 3: that my dad was like making money because occasionally he

396
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Speaker 3: would say things like oh, I have a deal with

397
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Speaker 3: TLC or whatever, and he would talk about that, but

398
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Speaker 3: it was never something that we were allowed to discuss

399
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Speaker 3: because then again that business side would come into play

400
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Speaker 3: and be squashed. Like if you're asking questions about this,

401
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:39,639
Speaker 3: then you're obviously being greedy or ungrateful or whatever. Where

402
00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:42,959
Speaker 3: you weren't really free to We weren't free to have

403
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Speaker 3: business conversations with him, but he could have those like

404
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Speaker 3: with the higher ups with or whatever.

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Speaker 2: Even once you all turned eighteen, you still were under

406
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Speaker 2: your dad's umbrella and this just wasn't really your decision

407
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Speaker 2: right now.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, that's how I mean under the IBLP Eighteen twenty

409
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Speaker 7: five twenty, it doesn't matter right, and it's like we

410
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Speaker 7: don't approve and it's wrong, and it's.

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Speaker 1: It's almost like you're under like the producer's umbrella too,

412
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Speaker 1: because they're men and telling you what to do.

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Speaker 6: And now you're.

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Speaker 3: Because if my dad is like if he is saying

415
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Speaker 3: he gives his blessing for these people, then you have

416
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Speaker 3: to go with whatever is his blessing, So you have

417
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Speaker 3: to ask for his blessing, and then you also have

418
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Speaker 3: to take it. So that whole scripture about like honor

419
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Speaker 3: your father and mother was taken out of context to

420
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Speaker 3: mean like obedience forever and always, like you have to

421
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Speaker 3: not only honor because we do believe like, but the

422
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Speaker 3: Bible says, like honor your father and mother Okay, you

423
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Speaker 3: can honor, but that does not mean obey forever. When

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Speaker 3: you're a little kid and they tell you not to

425
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Speaker 3: run out in the street, then yes you should obey.

426
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Speaker 3: That you're living under their roof. You're not fully developed.

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Speaker 9: Like on her and obey And like when we're in

428
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Speaker 9: our probably like our late twenties at this point and

429
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Speaker 9: going through a lot of conflict with the show stuff,

430
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Speaker 9: Jill helped me understand a lot of things, like why

431
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Speaker 9: her dad's acting like this and being so acting in

432
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Speaker 9: a way.

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Speaker 7: She's never seen a MacBook before, and she's like, basically,

434
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Speaker 7: I think like as his daughter, Like he doesn't want

435
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Speaker 7: to get fired.

436
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Speaker 5: He's already told the network.

437
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:25,439
Speaker 7: Yes you can have her events, Yes you can have

438
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:29,080
Speaker 7: her birth, Yes you can have any major events lives

439
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Speaker 7: to film, as you have with.

440
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Speaker 5: All my children.

441
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Speaker 7: They didn't know that he hadn't discussed that with these

442
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Speaker 7: adult children and said, oh, yeah, you can all agree

443
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Speaker 7: that you can film all of my children's major life events.

444
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:42,560
Speaker 7: That we have to notify you of any major life

445
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:46,040
Speaker 7: events or any moves, and I will guarantee that for you.

446
00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,720
Speaker 7: And then they're running into difficulties with us. Jill's like

447
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,200
Speaker 7: I think just he basically doesn't want to get fired.

448
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,440
Speaker 7: He doesn't want to look bad whenever they're having difficulty

449
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:59,720
Speaker 7: filming Jill's birth, birth of our children, even though we

450
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:00,640
Speaker 7: never agreed to that.

451
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,160
Speaker 3: And I also not to think for someone or share

452
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:08,080
Speaker 3: somebody else's story, But as it pertained to my story,

453
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,480
Speaker 3: I do think that my parents' overall goal was to

454
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:15,360
Speaker 3: do what was best for the entire greater family. So

455
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 3: I think that motivation was real and thoughtful and whatever.

456
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,439
Speaker 3: But I think the thing they didn't consider maybe was

457
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:28,480
Speaker 3: as adults become their own family and their own person,

458
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,160
Speaker 3: they need to be able to make decisions that are

459
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,680
Speaker 3: best for them. And maybe sometimes that isn't going to

460
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:38,080
Speaker 3: be this ultimate great family ministry. Maybe that's going to

461
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 3: be something else. And just because you're not reaching the

462
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 3: same number of people does not mean that it's less

463
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 3: than or not not God's best for them. So I

464
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:49,679
Speaker 3: think maybe that's where some of the mix up was.

465
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 2: Well, how do you think it did benefit your family

466
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:57,120
Speaker 2: aside from your dad, obviously you discovered later have made

467
00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:58,160
Speaker 2: quite a bit of money.

468
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:00,679
Speaker 6: Was it a positive thing for your family?

469
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 2: Was it neutral? Was it negative or kind of a

470
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:03,640
Speaker 2: mix of all three?

471
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:06,120
Speaker 3: I mean, I think there you would be an naive

472
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 3: to think that there aren't any positives and they're all

473
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:12,440
Speaker 3: negatives or whatever, vice versa. But I think that if

474
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 3: I were to choose it, like if I were to

475
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:18,159
Speaker 3: go back and make decisions for myself, I think I

476
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,919
Speaker 3: would not choose to live the exact same way that

477
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 3: I had been made to like participate in the reality

478
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 3: show Forever and all this. I think that I would

479
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 3: have liked to have more independence encouraged, and for us

480
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 3: to be encouraged to like get outside counsel and make

481
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 3: healthy decisions for ourselves. You always know as a kid,

482
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 3: like our therapist would even tell us, he's like, there

483
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 3: are always going to be unwritten rules in families. So

484
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,920
Speaker 3: even if parents don't speak those rules, you're gonna know,

485
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 3: Like you're gonna know when you're disappointing your parents, that's

486
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 3: what's gonna happen. But then to go a step further

487
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,399
Speaker 3: and tell your kids that they're sitting or that they

488
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:04,439
Speaker 3: are disappointing you by doing something that weighs heavy, especially

489
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 3: when you're people pleaser already.

490
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 2: And some of the things that your dad said to you,

491
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,360
Speaker 2: you did a really good job of communicating how much

492
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:13,399
Speaker 2: your stomach was a nots in the book, and like

493
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 2: how just like how much do this weight on you?

494
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 2: You don't want to disappoint your dad. He is making

495
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 2: you feel guilty. It's a lot of pressure, especially given

496
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 2: the culture that you grew up in where you're really

497
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 2: not supposed to have your own opinion.

498
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 7: Right, Yeah, you're almost an extension of your parents, and

499
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,919
Speaker 7: that's unhealthy, especially even for kids. I feel like, you know,

500
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 7: for kids that feel like I feel like that could

501
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 7: be burdensome to a kid to feel like, you know,

502
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 7: to some extent, you do represent like your parents if

503
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:42,160
Speaker 7: you're a kid, but at the same time, you don't

504
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 7: want to feel that responsibility and wait as a kid.

505
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,119
Speaker 7: And at the same time, like it protects the parents,

506
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,880
Speaker 7: and you know, it can be prideful for the parent

507
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:52,959
Speaker 7: if the kid is doing so well, it's like, well,

508
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,200
Speaker 7: that's because of me and not because of their hard work.

509
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 7: Or it could also lead to guilt, like if your

510
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 7: oldest son is serving a decade in federal prison. You know,

511
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:03,640
Speaker 7: they're their own person. They can make their own choices,

512
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,160
Speaker 7: and you might have done the best you could, but

513
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,239
Speaker 7: they have their own they're their own being and have

514
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,719
Speaker 7: autonomy to make their own choices, and you can't control

515
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 7: that for forever.

516
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,160
Speaker 2: So the two of you, I just want to talk

517
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 2: about your courtship briefly, because, first of all, for the show, okay,

518
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,159
Speaker 2: you're dating experience, but it really was you know, it

519
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,679
Speaker 2: was supervised the whole time, and then it was on

520
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 2: camera the whole time, right, I mean, like, what was

521
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 2: that like not.

522
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 3: The whole time like they were, Yeah, we weren't allowed

523
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 3: to like do anything too big without having it on camera.

524
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 3: So yeah, it was very much like starting out, like

525
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,360
Speaker 3: we met for the first time in person on camera,

526
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 3: and I would have preferred that have been more private

527
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 3: because it's like vulnerable moment you're like meeting somebody, and

528
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 3: but it was like, Nope, either you meet him this

529
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,120
Speaker 3: way or you don't meet him. Ntil he comes back

530
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 3: on camera. It's like, well, I'd rather meet him over there,

531
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:24,880
Speaker 3: and then if we break up, then at least he's

532
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 3: over there halfway around the world, and Nepaul, well I'm

533
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,120
Speaker 3: in Arkansas and we can just never see each other again.

534
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 7: But to me, like even now, like in the moment

535
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,479
Speaker 7: right as we're speaking, I think, just how weird that

536
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:38,879
Speaker 7: sounds like it's like, if you actually step back and

537
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:40,680
Speaker 7: think about it, it's like, well, what if I want

538
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,439
Speaker 7: to meet him, because, like Joey was saying, it's like, well,

539
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:45,880
Speaker 7: if you don't want to meet him here on a camera.

540
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:46,719
Speaker 5: You're going to meet him.

541
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 7: We're going to meet in Arkansas on camera. But if

542
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 7: it's like if you sneak around you try and meet

543
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 7: off camera, it's like jumbab breaking his contract with TLC.

544
00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 7: We're supposed to get all the high moments and you

545
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 7: have no control of that the umbrella and then yeah,

546
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 7: you're outside the umbrella and God and all these things.

547
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 1: It's a storm of control and guilt and all of

548
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,919
Speaker 1: these things. I was talking to our producer before we

549
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 1: started recording it. It feels like this is you guys,

550
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 1: are y'all your family represented, like the Nverse Kardashians or

551
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 1: something like you filled this hunger for a more wholesome

552
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 1: family show that people. I mean, your wedding got four

553
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 1: point four million views? Is that correct?

554
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 6: That's correct?

555
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, wild, And then you're you're also like being kind

556
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 1: of coerced to share your births as well on film.

557
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 6: Correct?

558
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, if we had said no, we're not sharing

559
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 3: the birth at all, we would have been in violation

560
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 3: of everything, and but yeah, I agree to it, and

561
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 3: according to them there.

562
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 6: Yeah.

563
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: So so on the night of before your wedding, your

564
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 1: dad gives you a stack of paper as well, just

565
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 1: briefly spell this album, did see the actual yeah right right?

566
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: Sign sign here and uh, you know, no no worries.

567
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 1: You sign, and then you realize slowly as you start

568
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 1: building your new life, like, oh, this paper means I

569
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 1: have to do everything on camera forever essentially.

570
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 10: I mean, yeah, that's what he Yeah, that's what that's exactly. Yeah,

571
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 10: he made me believe that.

572
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 3: Then I had to obligate myself to the show, like

573
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 3: until he called it quits or until this contract ran out,

574
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 3: which then I turn and say, like in the book,

575
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 3: I'm like, well, I don't feel obligated because I was

576
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 3: tricked into signing this and this is not like I

577
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 3: had nothing to read at the time, and you told

578
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 3: me something that was not accurate about just saying it's

579
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 3: just about how you're going to get paid and all

580
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 3: of this. So yeah, it was just very sad reality

581
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 3: for well.

582
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 7: Even even after the fact, after we'd inadvertently discovered it,

583
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 7: because they had to show us that we're obligated to

584
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 7: these things because we're not abiding by them. Right me,

585
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 7: it seemed again, I can't get in someone's head and

586
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,719
Speaker 7: say what they were were not thinking. But it seems

587
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 7: disingenuous when someone says, oh, I was just disorganized or

588
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 7: I didn't tell you what you're obligated to. But to me,

589
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 7: I mean, I'll just be honest, like I call BS

590
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 7: because in that like if somebody, if it were any

591
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 7: other big decision like that, with this culture, it would

592
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 7: be highly encouraged to like talk to your spouse. Like

593
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 7: if you're marrying someone the next day and you're being

594
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 7: asked to commit like basically everything of your life to.

595
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 5: Conform to this one.

596
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 7: Reality for the next five years, they would say, you

597
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 7: should probably really talk to your spouse and see if

598
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 7: this is something you guys want to do. In any

599
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 7: other situation like that would be the encouragement, but not

600
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:06,959
Speaker 7: not here, just like, well, I just need to kind

601
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 7: of slip this in.

602
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 5: Is what it looked like.

603
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 7: Right the day before the wedding, I was with Jill

604
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 7: the entire day, I must have been in the bathroom,

605
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,959
Speaker 7: was almost like it was very convenient oversight because I

606
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 7: wasn't even aware.

607
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 1: And you're a lawyer. It's important to know that Derek's

608
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 1: a lawyer, so you know.

609
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 7: Well, even at the time I was a tax accountant,

610
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 7: I wasn't even hadn't even gone.

611
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 5: To law school because of the personal events, that kind

612
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 5: of like was the on ramp to that.

613
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 7: But even as a tax accountain at the time, like,

614
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 7: I think that he would have known that. I would

615
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 7: have encouraged her to like, hey, ask what do we

616
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 7: what what is she signing here? And I think it

617
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 7: was a convenient overside. I think it was oversight because

618
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 7: I feel like one misconception is like, well, why did

619
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 7: you let.

620
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 5: Her sign it? Like I must have been in the

621
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 5: bathroom or something, because I.

622
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 7: Didn't know there was It was almost like like quick, here,

623
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,719
Speaker 7: here's a paper. You know you Derek or hanging out

624
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 7: a lot today because he took off work for the

625
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 7: day before the wedding. Ye know, I was just being like, Okay,

626
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 7: here's this, this is a good moment.

627
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 5: Just sign this.

628
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 7: And then you know, she trusts her dad and like

629
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 7: the last however many years before that, it's like, oh, here,

630
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 7: I've done your taxes here, just sign this and it

631
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 7: had always been that way, so it wasn't anything different,

632
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 7: and it's so manipulative.

633
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 2: And also the fact that he said it's about how

634
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 2: you get paid.

635
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 6: You didn't get paid, you were never getting paid.

636
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 7: About how you're going to get paid to me in hindsight,

637
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 7: was like that you're not going to get paid, right,

638
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 7: You're going.

639
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 6: To Oh it's so unfair. And I can see too.

640
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 1: I mean, there's nineteen kids that your parents are taking

641
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: care of. Before the show, you guys lived in a

642
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 1: smaller house. The production helped you finish a bigger house,

643
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 1: Like they literally sent decorators out to help you get

644
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 1: furniture and people to help build it. They helped you

645
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 1: build an entire new life. And now I can imagine

646
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 1: you feel some responsibility to I mean, like help take

647
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 1: care of a family of nineteen children or eighteen one

648
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 1: of them.

649
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I was gonna say. I definitely saw things

650
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 3: change over the years, and you know that your parents

651
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 3: where they used to be where you're, you know, eating

652
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 3: beans and rice and tuna fish sandwiches, and it's like, yeah,

653
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 3: somewher without this first summer we were in our house,

654
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 3: we had no air conditioning because we couldn't afford it,

655
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 3: and then it's like now it's like they must need

656
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 3: this to help keep us afloat and whatever's happening. It's like, okay,

657
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 3: well it's just very needs based, like if you need

658
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 3: something and maybe you speak up, then maybe you'll get

659
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 3: it paid for. But like not not like ever, just

660
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,719
Speaker 3: like it like they owe you, like you are owed this.

661
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 3: It was there. They didn't want a sense. They didn't

662
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 3: want a sense of entitlement in the kids, like you

663
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 3: are entitled to this. But I'm like, but we were,

664
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 3: like we were entitled to that. And that's where the

665
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 3: breakdown comes. It's like they're not recognizing.

666
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 7: That I did a job for like a year and

667
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 7: they didn't pay for that year because they don't want

668
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 7: you to feel And then it's like at the end

669
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 7: of the at the end of the year, you're like, hey,

670
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 7: I'm supposed to be paid every two weeks and I

671
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 7: don't pay for the last year.

672
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 5: It's like, how entitled for you to feel that way.

673
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 7: It's like, well, I'm the inverse is true too, Like

674
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 7: there's so much about this. Oh well, it's always about

675
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 7: if you guys aregree it, there's a sense of entire

676
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 7: we feel since this sense of entitlement, this almost like

677
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 7: like very paternal voice and like I'm sensing a spirit

678
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 7: of ungratefulness or of entitlement and you guys, but to me,

679
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 7: to me, it's like, well the same, it is true

680
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,359
Speaker 7: on the inverse, like you feel very entitled to our

681
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 7: labor and very entitled to our involvement in this. So

682
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 7: how is that not entitlement? And I sound very impassionate

683
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:52,280
Speaker 7: because again.

684
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 3: We did it, it's.

685
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 5: Been it's been a ten year process.

686
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 7: But at the same time, I'm you know, I want

687
00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 7: to to try and help other people realize who might

688
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 7: not even be on the same exact situation as us,

689
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 7: but are facing similar situations, to realize that they're not

690
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 7: on an island.

691
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 3: You know, they don't need to be taken advantage of.

692
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 3: They need to speak up for.

693
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 7: Themselves feel guilty, you know, And again it's easier said

694
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:18,839
Speaker 7: than done. You can tell someone don't feel guilted, but

695
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 7: you still feel guilted in certain things.

696
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 5: But just to have another perspective and realize that others

697
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 5: aren't alone. There are resources, there's therapy and yeah, a

698
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 5: lot of the things we talk about it in the book.

699
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, the structure of reality shows.

700
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:37,359
Speaker 6: I mean, to me, reality shows.

701
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,720
Speaker 2: Are an area of entertainment that is in like dire

702
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 2: need of regulation because so many people end up taking

703
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 2: advantage of and so many people end up unpaid for,

704
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 2: like so much labor that makes other people so much

705
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 2: money I did, and even just like the uh yeah,

706
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 2: the fact that they got the house and they were

707
00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 2: paying for things, that does sort of create this inherent

708
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 2: coer of pressure to do what they want even without

709
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 2: the money. So yeah, it's kind of like what Megan

710
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 2: was saying before. You have the church that's like controlling

711
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:11,800
Speaker 2: everything you're doing on one level, you have the family

712
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 2: unit that's controlling everything you're doing, and then you have

713
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 2: these producers who, even if they're nice, I'm sure they

714
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 2: were nice, you know, there is still like a bottom line.

715
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,280
Speaker 2: They need the footage, they want to make the money,

716
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 2: like ultimately, that is where their priorities are. How do

717
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 2: you feel now about the production side of things and

718
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 2: how much pressure there was on you without getting your

719
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 2: actual consent.

720
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that I think that there should be

721
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 3: more oversight in that area, like you're saying, But I

722
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 3: think also they would have to go step further to

723
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:49,240
Speaker 3: actually have those face to face meetings with adult children

724
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,319
Speaker 3: once they are adults, because otherwise, if you just get

725
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 3: a signature on a page, it's the same thing that

726
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 3: happened to me, where you don't know how they got it,

727
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 3: but it's almost like turning a blind eye, like what

728
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:01,799
Speaker 3: we don't know can't hurt us. Like maybe they got

729
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 3: loads of things, but they weren't willing to do their

730
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 3: due diligence. Maybe again, I don't know what their thought process.

731
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 7: Was, but it makes sense from a business standpoint because

732
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 7: it was mutually beneficial if they only have to deal

733
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 7: with one person and there's all these and this one

734
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 7: person can say, you know, I can give you all

735
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 7: these different options or whatever, and I just have to

736
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:29,839
Speaker 7: do it one person, and that worked out for them,

737
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 7: like because well what if this couple wants this, this

738
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:34,839
Speaker 7: one wants this, this one doesn't feel comple with this,

739
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:39,839
Speaker 7: but one person can just say, yeah, blanket agreement, like

740
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 7: you can have all the events of like all of

741
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 7: my children, all their births, their changing life.

742
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 3: And again, I don't think it was all net Like

743
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 3: I don't think it was all negative motives on my

744
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 3: note on my dad's part, like I think he was

745
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 3: also thinking, I'm a great businessman. I can get the

746
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 3: best deal for the family overall without thinking but what

747
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 3: if some of the kids don't want to do this,

748
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 3: and just not really thinking full circle.

749
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:10,400
Speaker 1: There's no individuality whatsoever encouraged. And it probably didn't even

750
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 1: occur to him that somebody would want something different.

751
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 3: That's what he said. Even he's like, I just never

752
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 3: thought that anybody wouldever there's anything different. You know. It's

753
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 3: such a ministry.

754
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, I mean yeah, he kind of he

755
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 1: swallowed his own the things he was being taught to.

756
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 7: I feel like a lot of the same problems would

757
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 7: still be present because of the whole umbrella thing, even

758
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 7: with like we've heard from people who have like family

759
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 7: businesses can be very very parallel set of struggles.

760
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 3: Is this because dairy farmers.

761
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:47,240
Speaker 7: Farmer It's like, well, you can have the easy route

762
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 7: in the family business and have things provided and make

763
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 7: it easy, or you can go out and perceive this

764
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 7: other thing and it can be very difficult for you.

765
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 7: But if you stay in line and kind of do

766
00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 7: what you're supposed to do.

767
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 3: Coal miners, it's just like, yeah, there's always yeah, you

768
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 3: have to have good boundaries That's what it comes down to.

769
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 7: Boundaries, and there's this like incentive to uh hide information

770
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 7: or to uh discourage like involvement. If it's just going

771
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:17,919
Speaker 7: to make the leader have a healthier bottom line, then

772
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 7: it's like, well, as long as you do this and

773
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 7: I can kind of like keep control, I can uh

774
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,320
Speaker 7: look out for everyone's best interests. But yeah, I feel

775
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:28,399
Speaker 7: like those things would still be present even without the show.

776
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 7: With the show and the money and the just reputation

777
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 7: was like throwing gasoline on a fire, like it made

778
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 7: the present the issues that are already there just bigger.

779
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 5: And you know, we said like eight.

780
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 7: Million dollars in the book on what was made, but

781
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 7: that was like a certain period of time. It was like,

782
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:49,959
Speaker 7: well of our well of our ten million dollars is made,

783
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 7: and you know we were like even years in our marriages,

784
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 7: like what about like five thousand even because five thousand

785
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 7: dollars if our if our birth was filmed and we

786
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 7: had insurance, would just like it seems like a reasonable request,

787
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 7: but like our deductibles five thousand. So because so much

788
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 7: was made not only by TLC but by the doug

789
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 7: Er family, if you could even like.

790
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:15,959
Speaker 1: Can you just pay for them the bill.

791
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, hours would be too much to ask for gosh,

792
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 4: because it's hard like whenever, I mean not impossible, like

793
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:28,319
Speaker 4: we had the money, but for any young couple, like

794
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 4: that's going to be a substantial chunk of your you know,

795
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 4: of your income, like at that point early on, Yeah, whenever.

796
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 5: And it's not saying, oh, we need it, because that

797
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:41,840
Speaker 5: was what the idea was that well, if you're asking

798
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:43,840
Speaker 5: for it, you need it, so you must not be

799
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 5: it's like, no, we don't need it now.

800
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 7: It would be very helpful, like it wouldn't be so

801
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:52,319
Speaker 7: much of a burden on us this early on, but

802
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 7: it makes sense to.

803
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:55,280
Speaker 5: Like it's a reasonable request.

804
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 6: Yeah.

805
00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 2: And I also I was shocked to discover that even

806
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,279
Speaker 2: when the show had to spin off and your name

807
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,359
Speaker 2: was in the title of the show, you still are

808
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:08,879
Speaker 2: not getting paid and you still were not the one

809
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:12,760
Speaker 2: deciding what was and was not allowed to be filmed

810
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:13,320
Speaker 2: in your life.

811
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly. Yeah, even when the show is called Jill

812
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 3: and Dusa counting on, it was still understood that nothing

813
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 3: had really changed on the home front or with negotiations.

814
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 3: It was still very much like we lot have of

815
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 3: these little meetings about content creation and whatever. But when

816
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:34,799
Speaker 3: it comes down to it, my dad would say, like,

817
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 3: I'm the one who handles that part of things, And.

818
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 7: To me, that's another mark against the network because from

819
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 7: the network's perspective, it's about business and they're thinking, well,

820
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 7: this show is damaged goods now, but we have we

821
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 7: already have so much invested in it, how can we

822
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:53,959
Speaker 7: revamp it? And from the outside marketing perspective, business side,

823
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 7: it's like people will come if they think, oh, we're

824
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 7: supporting the girls, this is their story, this is their show,

825
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 7: but it's it's the exact same contract. There's nothing different

826
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 7: about it except that we're going to call it Jill

827
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 7: and Jessa counting on and focus on their growing families.

828
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:10,800
Speaker 5: But they're not going to get paid any the rebrand.

829
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, so the rebrand was due to the fact of

830
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 1: Josh correct your brother.

831
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 5: Yes, so.

832
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 1: You wrote in one part of the book like I

833
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 1: feel like to your dad, You're like, I feel like

834
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 1: you're protecting my brother, who you called. I believe you

835
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 1: called them a pedophile more than you are me.

836
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 2: Can you tell us what happened in twenty fifteen with

837
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:35,279
Speaker 2: in Touch magazine?

838
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I knew in writing our book that I

839
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 3: would have to address some very painful parts of my story,

840
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 3: and it was part of my story I didn't really

841
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 3: want to have to talk about. But at the same time,

842
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:51,280
Speaker 3: I knew I would have to go there just because

843
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:53,839
Speaker 3: it was so public, and so I wanted to be

844
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 3: very clear about who I would hold responsible for what happened.

845
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 3: In twenty fifteen fifteen, there there was a release of

846
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:07,360
Speaker 3: juvenile records, illegal release of juvenile records pretending to my

847
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 3: sisters and I about abuse that had happened previously in

848
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 3: our home and and in Touch magazine, as well as

849
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 3: the chief of police police at the time, Kathy O'Kelly,

850
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:27,799
Speaker 3: and City of Springdale and Washington County. They together illegally

851
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:33,879
Speaker 3: released records, stealed juvenile records, and then continued to talk

852
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 3: about those publicly, which was just humiliating for my sisters

853
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 3: and I and should have never been out there and

854
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 3: at all. Subsequently, we filed a lawsuit to not for Josh,

855
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 3: for the victims, the victims, the victims of sexual abuse

856
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:54,240
Speaker 3: should never find themselves in the position that my sisters

857
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 3: and I found ourselves in and which is still hard

858
00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 3: for me to handle even now. It was just I

859
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 3: go into it in the book, but like terrifying and

860
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:09,840
Speaker 3: still uh just very very difficult. So anyway, so the

861
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 3: show was canceled following that release, and then later a

862
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 3: few months later, there was another like bad, uh, I.

863
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:24,840
Speaker 7: Don't know that there's a hacker who revealed the identities

864
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:28,799
Speaker 7: of the users of this service called Ashley Madison, which

865
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 7: is a website.

866
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:34,279
Speaker 3: My brother's name popped up on that where he had

867
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:36,360
Speaker 3: been involved in that a scandal.

868
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 5: So like.

869
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 3: So again not anyway, shape or form protecting my brother,

870
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 3: but like on my side of things as a victim,

871
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 3: with that initial onset of of juvenile records being released illegally,

872
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:57,359
Speaker 3: I think that that was the most traumatic thing at

873
00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:00,040
Speaker 3: that time that I had ever faced, and I I

874
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 3: felt like it was just made worse by the television

875
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:07,480
Speaker 3: show and everything that I had. You being in the spotlight,

876
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,279
Speaker 3: people are always looking for negative things to say about you,

877
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 3: and so anyway, they chose to, like Derek was saying

878
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 3: a minute ago, go ahead and move forward with the

879
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 3: show once the dust settled a little and they could rebrand.

880
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 3: But what people didn't know is they had already started

881
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 3: like filming content before they even had this like meetings

882
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:31,439
Speaker 3: thing that they were like, Okay, we're going to talk

883
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:34,480
Speaker 3: through rebranding and we just just want to make sure

884
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:36,759
Speaker 3: you guys are okay with this kind of thing. They'd

885
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:39,800
Speaker 3: already we'd already film stuff. We'd aren't like this decision

886
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 3: already made of course about this, so it was like

887
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 3: moving forward and we just have have to like ask

888
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 3: if you're okay with stuff. And we were kind of like, well,

889
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 3: we'll see, like we're okay with the general idea of

890
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 3: moving forward, but not like we'll have to see what

891
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 3: that looks like because we were headed out of the

892
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 3: country as well at that time to work in missions anyway.

893
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:02,719
Speaker 7: So this but like based on the whole meeting, it

894
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 7: was very disingenuous on the network's part because they were

895
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 7: it was almost like they're okay leading benefiting from it

896
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:17,800
Speaker 7: was more like, but I'm saying, like benefiting from deceiving

897
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 7: the public. Well, the public thinks that, like the viewing

898
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 7: public thinks that this isn't about the parents, and that'll

899
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:26,040
Speaker 7: just push more viewers toward it anyway, because they said,

900
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:28,840
Speaker 7: you know, at this meeting, they said we can't film

901
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:32,319
Speaker 7: with the parents, and the ones that they came they

902
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 7: told us explicitly, like we even initially we can't film

903
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 7: with like any of the other kids living under your roof.

904
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:41,920
Speaker 7: Like that's how damage like this is because of what

905
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 7: all came out. So basically, if we make it look

906
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 7: like it's about Jill and Jessa and even call it that,

907
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 7: then that's what we need to get viewers. Otherwise, no

908
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 7: one's gonna watch it if they think it's tied to

909
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:56,239
Speaker 7: the bigger family when all of it was.

910
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 3: So as victims, we were exploited for profit. Yeah, the pros.

911
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 6: Can you start breaking? Can you explain.

912
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 7: Just while we're right there, even like saying like in

913
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:18,239
Speaker 7: these family meetings outside the network saying like you know,

914
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 7: it was almost like one and the same with like

915
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:24,080
Speaker 7: the IBLP. It's like, oh, well, the you know, all

916
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 7: these are people who are against our faith and everything.

917
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:28,759
Speaker 7: They would love to just see us fade into the background,

918
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 7: but we're not going to do that. We're going to

919
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:34,359
Speaker 7: show them like basically using your own agenda to kind

920
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:36,879
Speaker 7: of like Gill others into like coming in and not

921
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:38,759
Speaker 7: feeling bad about doing whatever you say.

922
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 5: Yes, others we would have maybe we would anyway, but.

923
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 2: Right as in, like Jill needs to like protect the

924
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 2: reputation of the church. Is that what you're saying, and

925
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:54,279
Speaker 2: like keep doing whatever makes the family look good?

926
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 7: Is that kind of basically like basically saying like I

927
00:47:57,520 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 7: harready decided, like we're going to claw back and get

928
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:01,839
Speaker 7: the show back. Here's kind of what the plan is.

929
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 7: They don't want to film with us, they want to

930
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 7: film with you guys, So kind of here's the game plan.

931
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:10,359
Speaker 7: And others would love to see us like fade off,

932
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:11,399
Speaker 7: but we're not going to do that.

933
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 5: And it was there.

934
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 7: Wasn't like, hey, we're only going to do this if

935
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 7: you're I know, all this trauma has just happened to you.

936
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:18,319
Speaker 5: You know.

937
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 7: The first thought wasn't are you okay? The first thought

938
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 7: was like how are we going to get the showback

939
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 7: up and running it?

940
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:23,479
Speaker 6: Right?

941
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 5: Awesome?

942
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 6: Right right right?

943
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 2: Jill. I just want to go back to something that

944
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 2: you said, because I think it's important. I think a

945
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:36,759
Speaker 2: lot of people their intent on you know, kind of

946
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 2: uncovering abuse and like outing abusers, and that obviously is

947
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 2: important to get abuse out into the light. But can

948
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 2: you explain why it's re traumatizing when it's not coming

949
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:49,400
Speaker 2: from the victim. It's when it's not the victim's choice

950
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 2: out that abuse.

951
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:55,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah I did. I definitely feel like if for

952
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 3: people who have been abused, they should always have a

953
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:01,440
Speaker 3: right to their story. It should always be their story

954
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:05,399
Speaker 3: to tell and should not be told for them. And

955
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 3: I've met people who have said, oh, I was abused

956
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:13,759
Speaker 3: and I've chosen to share my story, and and they've recognized, like,

957
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 3: I'm sorry that you were never given that right, like

958
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 3: your story was told for you and then not just told,

959
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 3: but but twisted and like given to the wolves out

960
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 3: there to just like unpack and re unpack.

961
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 7: And yeah, I tell people that don't view you like

962
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:36,359
Speaker 7: or your enemies, basically people on social media saying, hey,

963
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:38,880
Speaker 7: how do you feel that x y Z in this

964
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 7: police report happened to your wife, like all these things,

965
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:45,040
Speaker 7: and like even people with good intentions is like what

966
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 7: do you say, Like, oh, I'm so sorry, Like I

967
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 7: had no idea like that this happened to you. It's like, well,

968
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 7: even with good intentions, it's like, well, you shouldn't have

969
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 7: known unless I chose to tell you. And like even

970
00:49:55,719 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 7: now you only know because it was illegally released, Like

971
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:04,359
Speaker 7: other people have that luxury. Other people this sounds bad,

972
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:07,400
Speaker 7: but like other victims of abuse, it's a it's a

973
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 7: luxury to like choose when and how to like reveal

974
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:14,040
Speaker 7: certain information about what happened in someone's story. And for

975
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:16,840
Speaker 7: those people, it's like, maybe I will reveal what happened

976
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:18,359
Speaker 7: to me at some point, but only when I come

977
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:21,359
Speaker 7: to what degree and to what degree. But it's almost like, well,

978
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:23,759
Speaker 7: once i know I'm to a certain point in my

979
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 7: own journey, then I'll share these things.

980
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:28,920
Speaker 3: But it's like, but to have the gruesome details.

981
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 5: We don't care what point you aready, we're told.

982
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 3: In private, we're going to remain private when they choose

983
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 3: to like no bounds tell your story. It's just it's

984
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:43,439
Speaker 3: it's not okay, it's illegal, of course, and something that, yeah,

985
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:45,760
Speaker 3: it's caused me a lot of trauma.

986
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 5: Well, and that's kind of like that's that was the

987
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:52,239
Speaker 5: impetus for like going like us as a couple discussing

988
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 5: this and based on a lot of intersection.

989
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 7: Like crossroads in our life at the point deciding to

990
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:01,759
Speaker 7: pursue legal education and to become an attorney is like

991
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 7: the fact that at some point someone had like these

992
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 7: little girls in a room at it and said this

993
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:09,880
Speaker 7: is a safe place, you know, for the sake of

994
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:13,280
Speaker 7: trying to protect you, we need you to share what happened,

995
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 7: and this this is a safe place, and you know

996
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:18,920
Speaker 7: what you say stays here. Whatever it was, it was said,

997
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:24,799
Speaker 7: you can't any other child who's a victim in that

998
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 7: same situation can't say it's going to be more likely

999
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:30,759
Speaker 7: to be repressed and like allow the abuse to continue

1000
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 7: because they can look to Jill in her sisters story

1001
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:36,440
Speaker 7: and say, you can't guarantee nobody will ever know this,

1002
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:38,719
Speaker 7: Like you can't guarantee my enemies. So I don't even

1003
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:41,799
Speaker 7: know now this because look what happened and they got

1004
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:42,399
Speaker 7: away with it.

1005
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:43,960
Speaker 6: Mmmm, that's true.

1006
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's really sad and like that shouldn't happen.

1007
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 2: But I don't want to like continue to linger on

1008
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 2: this part of the story, but just to briefly touch.

1009
00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:59,319
Speaker 6: On something that I found shocking in the book, which was.

1010
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:02,799
Speaker 2: That when you did the Megan Kelly interview to talk

1011
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 2: about what happened to you, Josh was in the room

1012
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 2: watching the interview.

1013
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 6: How yes was that allowed?

1014
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:15,719
Speaker 3: I know it wasn't even I don't know, it's just

1015
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 3: the way it happened. I don't know.

1016
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, Yeah.

1017
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 7: To me, it's just like one example of just how

1018
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 7: like haphazard the whole thing was.

1019
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 5: In my opinion, it was just like putting on a performance.

1020
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 7: It's more just damage control is more just like going

1021
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:34,440
Speaker 7: through the steps for the business plan of the for

1022
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:35,800
Speaker 7: Jimbob and TLC.

1023
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:39,479
Speaker 1: It's just so frustrating because you were you were held

1024
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:41,279
Speaker 1: up to such high standards. I mean, you had to

1025
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,240
Speaker 1: do so many things to live this way of life,

1026
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:46,719
Speaker 1: and then you're right, you're just forced to write off

1027
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 1: this huge breach of misbehavior and complete illegal actions in

1028
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:56,239
Speaker 1: such a like okay, it's it's okay, wait, it's it

1029
00:52:57,040 --> 00:52:58,200
Speaker 1: makes me so mad.

1030
00:52:58,520 --> 00:52:58,840
Speaker 6: Okay.

1031
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:01,960
Speaker 2: So you have a new show and your brother's out

1032
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:05,440
Speaker 2: of the picture and people kind of know about his abuse.

1033
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:09,319
Speaker 6: Then you kind of both of you.

1034
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:12,400
Speaker 2: What was exciting to read was you kind of start

1035
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:16,000
Speaker 2: to set some boundaries with the family together.

1036
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:18,520
Speaker 6: And like stand up for yourself.

1037
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:21,480
Speaker 2: And it may be so happy reading it because you've

1038
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:23,560
Speaker 2: been taken advantage of for so long by so many

1039
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:26,520
Speaker 2: different systems and people, and then you start to be like, no,

1040
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:29,480
Speaker 2: I don't want that to be filmed. Actually, can you

1041
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 2: guys talk about that era?

1042
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:33,759
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, I think the more that our boundaries were

1043
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 3: crossed when we didn't even really have healthy boundaries, the

1044
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:40,359
Speaker 3: more we realized how much one we needed boundaries and

1045
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:43,680
Speaker 3: how much like we didn't need to let those continue

1046
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:47,200
Speaker 3: to be cross. So it took time until we were

1047
00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 3: kind of at our wits end and we were like,

1048
00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:51,799
Speaker 3: this is not okay. Whatever's happening is not okay. And

1049
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:54,840
Speaker 3: that's when we decided to get real help and start

1050
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:57,400
Speaker 3: seeing a therapist to help us kind of sort through

1051
00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:01,160
Speaker 3: all of this. Somebody who was removed from the situation,

1052
00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:03,719
Speaker 3: which I really think is important for other people as well, Like,

1053
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 3: no matter what you're facing, it's just it's helpful to

1054
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 3: get some outside council from somebody who is removed from

1055
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:15,879
Speaker 3: that situation. So that was super super helpful for us.

1056
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:18,600
Speaker 3: But somebody also who like I wanted. I had certain

1057
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:22,320
Speaker 3: criteria for the therapist that we did find, So somebody

1058
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:25,520
Speaker 3: that you that's a good fit for you also is important.

1059
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:27,719
Speaker 3: So kind of like when you're looking for a physician,

1060
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:30,160
Speaker 3: you want to make sure that you find somebody that's

1061
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:32,440
Speaker 3: a good fit for you there, like same with a therapist,

1062
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:35,520
Speaker 3: Like I wanted somebody who is a Christian and all that.

1063
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:40,000
Speaker 3: So anyways, it's been super super helpful for us and

1064
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:43,319
Speaker 3: good to have like a sounding board and not just

1065
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 3: yes people to tell you yes about everything, but to

1066
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:52,319
Speaker 3: help you process trauma and like work through decisions, work

1067
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:58,319
Speaker 3: through conflict as a couple, and learn like healthy, learn

1068
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:00,120
Speaker 3: what healthy can look like.

1069
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:02,880
Speaker 7: And I think it's important to realize that different people

1070
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:04,720
Speaker 7: leading different lives will.

1071
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 5: Have different things on them Differently. If people look at.

1072
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:11,839
Speaker 7: Uh, my other in laws, like siblings and say, well,

1073
00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 7: why are they not doing the same thing, It's like, well,

1074
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:17,759
Speaker 7: everyone's at a different place in their journey and you

1075
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:20,279
Speaker 7: know they're not gonna respond the same way, and they're

1076
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:25,840
Speaker 7: different people. And it's only whenever someone figuratively crosses your

1077
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 7: boundary and punches you in the face that you're going

1078
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:31,279
Speaker 7: to realize that something is off and something is wrong.

1079
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 7: And if others haven't gotten to a point where they've

1080
00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:39,839
Speaker 7: basically had other people across their boundaries, not just at all,

1081
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:42,640
Speaker 7: but to the point where it's like seriously disrupt your life, Yeah.

1082
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:44,520
Speaker 1: It's like a boundary rock bottom.

1083
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:48,960
Speaker 7: Yeah, you may have not have a place or experience

1084
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:50,960
Speaker 7: that for yourself, so it might be difficult for somebody

1085
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:54,120
Speaker 7: else looking in to be like, well, why are they different? Like,

1086
00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:56,799
Speaker 7: I mean, why why do they not feel the same way?

1087
00:55:57,120 --> 00:56:00,319
Speaker 7: Different people are on different experience, have differ things.

1088
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:05,120
Speaker 1: Individualism, It's yeah, right, it's an individual journey.

1089
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:06,640
Speaker 6: And yeah, it's one thing.

1090
00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:09,600
Speaker 5: Whenever everybody living under.

1091
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:11,520
Speaker 7: The roof of the big House, that's what we call it,

1092
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:14,920
Speaker 7: like Jiel's parents house, the big house. If everyone's in

1093
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:17,040
Speaker 7: the same schedule and everyone always wakes up at this

1094
00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:19,759
Speaker 7: time and everyone goes to sleep this time, then it's

1095
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:22,480
Speaker 7: really easy for everyone to kind of be in line

1096
00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:23,640
Speaker 7: and on the same page.

1097
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:27,040
Speaker 5: But then early on, whenever we were having some conflict

1098
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:29,799
Speaker 5: with a lot of these types of things, one thing

1099
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:33,560
Speaker 5: that was brought up to us was like by Jill's

1100
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:36,080
Speaker 5: dad was like, why are you guys on board with this?

1101
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:38,160
Speaker 5: Why everyone else is on board with this? Why are

1102
00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:40,160
Speaker 5: you guys not. It's like, well, at.

1103
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:42,440
Speaker 7: That point, in a lot of ways, everyone shared the

1104
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:46,840
Speaker 7: same schedule, the same like like way of life in

1105
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:49,400
Speaker 7: their day to day life and like, and we weren't

1106
00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:51,960
Speaker 7: at that same point, like we were living a very

1107
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:54,279
Speaker 7: different life, and it's going to be very obvious that

1108
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:56,400
Speaker 7: things aren't consistent with that.

1109
00:56:57,360 --> 00:57:00,319
Speaker 6: Wow, I know we have to wrap up, but just

1110
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:01,240
Speaker 6: some final things.

1111
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:04,160
Speaker 2: You started wearing pants, that's cool.

1112
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:07,200
Speaker 5: She doesn't have pants on right now?

1113
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:10,839
Speaker 10: Well I have technically I do jump suit, so I've

1114
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:11,719
Speaker 10: got jump suit.

1115
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:12,279
Speaker 7: I don't know.

1116
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:17,800
Speaker 5: I don't know women's passion.

1117
00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:21,760
Speaker 6: Boys never do. It's okay.

1118
00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:26,000
Speaker 2: And do you talk to anyone in your family do

1119
00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:30,720
Speaker 2: you have hope for you know, reviving that relationship at

1120
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:32,080
Speaker 2: any point where does that stand?

1121
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 3: Definitely? Yeah. I I was hoping to get to go

1122
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:39,600
Speaker 3: with some of my sisters to the craft fairs this

1123
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:42,680
Speaker 3: weekend here in the area. It's a little bit of

1124
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:44,480
Speaker 3: a drive, but I was like, oh, that'd be so

1125
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:47,640
Speaker 3: nice because we try and go every year. But I

1126
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:49,640
Speaker 3: couldn't make it, and some of them were sick, but

1127
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:52,040
Speaker 3: they were gonna have to go without me this time.

1128
00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:56,000
Speaker 3: But I'm like, well, we will work. Uh. We're always

1129
00:57:56,040 --> 00:57:59,600
Speaker 3: working toward healing in those relationships. And it looks different

1130
00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:01,840
Speaker 3: and some times you have to push pause, and sometimes

1131
00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:04,280
Speaker 3: you have to give each other a little space, especially

1132
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:06,480
Speaker 3: right now, like in light of the launch of our

1133
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:09,400
Speaker 3: book and everything too. I know it can be somewhat

1134
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:11,800
Speaker 3: emotional for everybody, so I want to give them space

1135
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:17,000
Speaker 3: too and recognize that they have boundaries also that that

1136
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:23,240
Speaker 3: they're having to work through respect their boundaries. So but yeah,

1137
00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:26,720
Speaker 3: I do have a relationship with some of my siblings

1138
00:58:26,840 --> 00:58:31,680
Speaker 3: and my parents. It's a little more complicated, but but

1139
00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:33,760
Speaker 3: I love them and I want them to know that.

1140
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:37,880
Speaker 3: And despite like our differences, I definitely love my family

1141
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:39,800
Speaker 3: and I and I know I wanted that to be

1142
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:44,040
Speaker 3: very evident in my book as well, that we love

1143
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:47,920
Speaker 3: both of us. I mean, we love our families, and

1144
00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:50,320
Speaker 3: so it's kind of like roses and thorns though, like

1145
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:53,240
Speaker 3: I talk about in the book, where you have the rosier,

1146
00:58:53,440 --> 00:58:56,640
Speaker 3: happier parts of your story and then the harder, more

1147
00:58:57,240 --> 00:58:59,560
Speaker 3: thorny parts and they can coexist.

1148
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:02,920
Speaker 5: So I always feel like it's complicated. It's very politically

1149
00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:05,000
Speaker 5: correct complicated.

1150
00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:14,640
Speaker 1: It's like those old Facebook relationships status.

1151
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:18,600
Speaker 5: Single relationship. Yeah, it's complicated. What does that mean?

1152
00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:23,480
Speaker 2: Well, I really admire how much you seem to have

1153
00:59:23,560 --> 00:59:27,320
Speaker 2: grown and overcome and just like you know, willing to

1154
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:30,200
Speaker 2: stand up for yourself and kind of start a new era.

1155
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:34,160
Speaker 2: I think it's really amazing and impressive. So congratulations and

1156
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:37,400
Speaker 2: congratulations in both congratulations both of you on the book.

1157
00:59:37,560 --> 00:59:41,320
Speaker 2: And the book is called Counting the costs counting the.

1158
00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:44,560
Speaker 1: Cost Yeah, lots of costs there, but all worth it.

1159
00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:45,720
Speaker 6: I think if it's.

1160
00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:47,800
Speaker 7: Sold out where you're at, which we still haven't seen it,

1161
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:50,320
Speaker 7: like walking into a store on the.

1162
00:59:50,240 --> 01:00:01,720
Speaker 2: Shelves, great there wherever you're That is so cool. That's

1163
01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:03,920
Speaker 2: justice for so many years of never getting paid. So

1164
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:07,520
Speaker 2: that makes me very happy. Yes, thank you, And that's

1165
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:09,560
Speaker 2: the interview with you guys. I'm so glad that Jill

1166
01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:11,720
Speaker 2: and Derek were able to join us this week. I'm

1167
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:13,480
Speaker 2: so glad that you guys were able to join us

1168
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:17,920
Speaker 2: this week. Personally, I'm lying horizontally in a bed in

1169
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:20,960
Speaker 2: my mom's house, so I really got nothing left.

1170
01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:23,400
Speaker 6: But I'm gonna be back next week. I'm gonna be

1171
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:25,200
Speaker 6: on Meccan's gonna be here.

1172
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:28,080
Speaker 2: We're gonna be good at this podcasting thing that we

1173
01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:30,640
Speaker 2: do professionally.

1174
01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:33,280
Speaker 6: Ostensibly. Thanks so much for joining us.

1175
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:36,240
Speaker 2: As always, remember to follow your gut, watch out for

1176
01:00:36,320 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 2: red flags, and never ever trust me.

1177
01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:41,120
Speaker 3: Bye.

1178
01:00:44,040 --> 01:00:44,440
Speaker 6: Trust Me.

1179
01:00:44,520 --> 01:00:47,640
Speaker 2: Is produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp, and Steve Delamator.

1180
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:49,680
Speaker 6: The special thanks to Stacy Para.

1181
01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:52,040
Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1182
01:00:52,280 --> 01:00:55,120
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1183
01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:58,680
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

1184
01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:00,120
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Pod.

1185
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:03,959
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1186
01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:07,240
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1187
01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:08,440
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

1188
01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:10,920
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.