Speaker 1: It's the big take from Bloomberg News and I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: I'm Westksova today Ukraine's fight to protect its cultural heritage
Speaker 1: from Russian missiles. Russia's invasion of Ukraine has left thousands
Speaker 1: dead and devastated cities across the country. Less visible is
Speaker 1: the widespread destruction of Ukrainian culture and identity. Russia's military
Speaker 1: has targeted libraries and museums that housed irreplaceable books and
Speaker 1: documents and works of art. Now, with the help of
Speaker 1: technology like advanced digital modeling, Ukrainians are working to document
Speaker 1: what's been destroyed and preserve what can be salvage for
Speaker 1: future generations. In a moment, I speak with an architect
Speaker 1: in Kiev who's doing this. He's creating three D visual
Speaker 1: models of bombed Ukrainian cultural sites. But first, Bloomberg Senior
Speaker 1: International Affairs reporter Mark Champion joins me from London to
Speaker 1: help us makes sense of where the war is heading. Mark,
Speaker 1: You've traveled around Ukraine several times this year reporting on
Speaker 1: the war. Russia recently had yet another big setback when
Speaker 1: Ukraine's military took back the city of Kersan in the south,
Speaker 1: and in the months before that, Russia had resorting increasing
Speaker 1: its long range missile attacks because its troops weren't gaining ground.
Speaker 1: So clear the war isn't going well for Putin. How
Speaker 1: should we think about Russia's strategy in Ukraine right now? Really,
Speaker 1: they seem to have a dual purpose here. One and
Speaker 1: probably the main one, is to try and persuade the West,
Speaker 1: in particular that this has to stop, and to negotiate
Speaker 1: some sort of ceasefire and stop the war, which the
Speaker 1: Russians essentially aren't losing, slowly but losing. A second goal
Speaker 1: is really to punish and to make it clear to
Speaker 1: the Ukrainians that unless they come to some kind of
Speaker 1: agreement with the Russians, the punishment will be severe. And
Speaker 1: Russia has the capacity to just continued doing that. And
Speaker 1: yet it doesn't seem like either of those things is
Speaker 1: going to happen. The West seems more resolved than ever
Speaker 1: to help Ukraine, and certainly the Ukrainian people, the Ukrainian
Speaker 1: army and the government don't show any signs of backing down.
Speaker 1: I think that's absolutely right, and really the story of
Speaker 1: this war is a series of massive miscalculations by the Russians,
Speaker 1: by Putin, himself. Ukraine's forces are continuing a rapid advance
Speaker 1: in the Hockey of region, exploiting an extraordinary collapse of
Speaker 1: Russian defenses. The Kremlin now plans to hold referendums in
Speaker 1: Ukrainian territories occupied by its troops. President Vladimir Putin announced
Speaker 1: a partial mobilization and pledge to annex the territories his
Speaker 1: forces have already occupied in Ukraine. You've traveled around Ukraine.
Speaker 1: What do you see when you speak to people? What
Speaker 1: do they tell you? You know, you have to generalize,
Speaker 1: but I would say that it's pretty consistent that there
Speaker 1: is number one just anger, an absolute fury at what
Speaker 1: Russia is inflicting on Ukraine. And you have to remember
Speaker 1: that this was not an anti Russian country before two
Speaker 1: thousand and fourteen. It became increasingly so after two thousand
Speaker 1: and fourteen, when Russia and next Crimea and began an
Speaker 1: insurgency in the eastern Dompass region. Violence in Ukraine shifting
Speaker 1: to Crimea. Gunmen took over parliament and other government buildings overnight,
Speaker 1: they raised the Russian flag. It's estimated there about a
Speaker 1: hundred twenty gunmen. Russia has a naval based in the
Speaker 1: region were putin the President of Russia supporting a request
Speaker 1: from Crimea to join the countries. But since this war,
Speaker 1: it is very difficult to find even among Russian speakers
Speaker 1: in towns like you know, Odessa, Mikliath and so on,
Speaker 1: which are towns that have long historical ties and familial
Speaker 1: ties with Russia. It's hard to find people with anything
Speaker 1: good to say about Russia. Now. The second thing to
Speaker 1: say would be that something that has changed in the
Speaker 1: last few months and since the campaign, when the Ukrainians
Speaker 1: had this very successful counter offensive up in the Harkeet region,
Speaker 1: and since then, there's a belief that actually the Ukrainians
Speaker 1: can will win. I believe among the people, yes, absolutely,
Speaker 1: among the people, among the military, in the government, there
Speaker 1: is a very very profound belief that they well win.
Speaker 1: And they also feel that, you know, they do have
Speaker 1: the support of the West, which has all these modern weapons.
Speaker 1: President Biden says the US will give Ukraine as much
Speaker 1: as six hundred million dollars in additional weapons and ammunition.
Speaker 1: The high mars, these long range pieces of artillery that
Speaker 1: have allowed the Ukrainians to strike at logistics supply lines
Speaker 1: far behind the front lines of the Russians. These have
Speaker 1: proved incredibly strategically important but also psychologically because they've given
Speaker 1: Ukrainians belief that even if they don't have a tenth
Speaker 1: of the artillery pieces, that the Russians have, what they
Speaker 1: have because it's modern, because it's Western and so on,
Speaker 1: will enable them to do what they need to do
Speaker 1: and to prevail. And this is very important because so
Speaker 1: long as you they believe that they can win, the
Speaker 1: incentive to sit down and negotiate a piece with Russians
Speaker 1: still occupying about twenty of the country is close to zero.
Speaker 1: Is that believe well founded? Will Russia eventually back down
Speaker 1: if they're not able to gain more ground? Is that
Speaker 1: seem realistic? Yes? There are two separate questions here. One
Speaker 1: is whether the Ukrainians can continue to push the Russians
Speaker 1: back on the battlefield in a conventional war that we're
Speaker 1: now engaged in, and the answer that is probably yes.
Speaker 1: It will be slow, difficult, but probably yes. The second
Speaker 1: question is whether the Russians will back down, And we
Speaker 1: have to remember that they are a massive nuclear power,
Speaker 1: and that they have a lot of other kinds of resources,
Speaker 1: and that this can get very ugly. This is one
Speaker 1: of the reasons why it feels like a more dangerous
Speaker 1: period in the war, and that I suppose has a
Speaker 1: lot to do with Vladimir Putin himself and how much
Speaker 1: he personally has invested his own credibility, the future and
Speaker 1: credibility of Russia in this invasion. The stakes for him
Speaker 1: are enormous. He began this war in in order to
Speaker 1: just consolidate his legacy, and he's talked about it specifically
Speaker 1: openly in terms of Peter the Great, Catherine the Great
Speaker 1: and the gathering, the regathering of Russian lands. Very important
Speaker 1: for him to talk about the regathering. So the implication
Speaker 1: is that we're just taking back what's ours, setting it
Speaker 1: out in those kind of very kind of grand terms,
Speaker 1: historical terms, this is my place in history. And then
Speaker 1: to be defeated and to be pushed back, to have
Speaker 1: lost tens of thousands of your own soldiers, to have
Speaker 1: destroyed the relationship with, you know, the most important neighbor
Speaker 1: that Russia has, you know, in terms of the former
Speaker 1: Soviet Union Ukraine, these would be extraordinary defeats for him. Politically,
Speaker 1: it could be very difficult for him to survive it.
Speaker 1: You lived and worked in Moscow for years do you
Speaker 1: have a sense of how much support Putent has from
Speaker 1: the Russian people. He's very good at making people fear him,
Speaker 1: but do they believe in this Guys, he has been
Speaker 1: very popular. I don't feel like I really have my
Speaker 1: finger on the pulse of Russian thought today. But what
Speaker 1: I would say is that even when I lived there
Speaker 1: in the nineties, when the sort of tide of opinion
Speaker 1: was very pro western, I could count on less than
Speaker 1: one hand the number of Russians I knew who thought
Speaker 1: the Ukraine as a country. So this runs deep the
Speaker 1: idea that Ukraine is not a real country. It's been
Speaker 1: taught in history classes and so on for Russians in
Speaker 1: over many, many decades, and that kind of created an
Speaker 1: open door for Putting too push for many people. They
Speaker 1: really have responded quite well, after all, the humiliation of
Speaker 1: the collapse of the Soviet Union in the ninety nineties,
Speaker 1: the poverty and so on, to the idea that not
Speaker 1: only did they re establish the oil industry, re established
Speaker 1: the economy, start doing better, but also they're becoming, you know,
Speaker 1: re establishing themselves as a great path And Russians have
Speaker 1: a very strong idea of the state and of the
Speaker 1: importance of the state, and of the importance of the
Speaker 1: state is a great power. If he got this right,
Speaker 1: if he had succeeded, he would have made his place
Speaker 1: in Russian history and it would have been extremely popular,
Speaker 1: just as the annexation of Crimea was incredibly popular back
Speaker 1: in two thousand and fourteen. Mark later in this episode,
Speaker 1: we're going to be talking about how Russia's bombing of
Speaker 1: cultural sites has done great damage to centuries worth of
Speaker 1: Ukrainian history and artwork and literature. In the beginning of
Speaker 1: the war, it seemed like the goal of Russia was
Speaker 1: to conquer Ukraine, to take it over, as they try
Speaker 1: to do in to sort of finish that job. Is
Speaker 1: it fair enough to say that in part there is
Speaker 1: also a goal to sort of destroy Ukraine as a country,
Speaker 1: as a people, as a culture. I think that is
Speaker 1: probably right. I mean, we can only really speculate as
Speaker 1: to what the motives are, but that's what it looks like.
Speaker 1: It looks punitive, and it looks like the message that's
Speaker 1: being sent is that we may not be able to win,
Speaker 1: but you cannot. Even if Russia is not able to
Speaker 1: conquer Ukraine and to control it, it can destroy Ukraine
Speaker 1: asn't prevent it becoming the Ukrainian nation that it's. You know,
Speaker 1: Russia has encouraged it to become, and they can destroy
Speaker 1: that identity. They can try and destroy its culture, They
Speaker 1: can try and destroy the cities, make them unlivable, make
Speaker 1: the economy unworkable. Basically say to the Ukrainians, you know,
Speaker 1: even if we can't conquer you, you're gonna have to
Speaker 1: come to some kind of arrangement with us, because we
Speaker 1: will simply grind you into the ground and there will
Speaker 1: be no nice future for Ukraine as a prosperous European
Speaker 1: Union state. That I think is the message that the
Speaker 1: Russians are are sending. But as I say, that's largely inference.
Speaker 1: Given all of this, what do you see when you
Speaker 1: look ahead six months a year from now, which Russian
Speaker 1: is this word likely to take? If you're able to
Speaker 1: tell at all, None of us know, of course. The
Speaker 1: only thing I can say is that, you know, my
Speaker 1: best analysis in this very moment would be that we
Speaker 1: will still be at war in six months time. It
Speaker 1: will be extremely nasty, will continue to be extremely nasty.
Speaker 1: The Russians will not give up, The Ukrainians will not
Speaker 1: give up the huge, huge variable. There is the question
Speaker 1: of some kind of mass destruction event, some event that
Speaker 1: changes the game and forces some alteration of path. It's
Speaker 1: very unpredictable as to exactly what will happen at what
Speaker 1: moment and you know where that final moment of near
Speaker 1: collision comes or collision. Mark Champion, thanks so much for
Speaker 1: taking the time. Thank you. After the break, how one
Speaker 1: Ukrainian architect is using technology to digitally recreate destroyed buildings.
Speaker 1: After Russia targeted cultural sites across Ukraine, people there began
Speaker 1: documenting the destruction. In part it was so they could
Speaker 1: say what they could, but also as evidence of what
Speaker 1: Russia had done. One of the people doing this is
Speaker 1: Sergei Ravenco is an architect who specializes in building three
Speaker 1: D virtual models. He spoke to me recently from his
Speaker 1: office in Kiev, Ukraine's capital circuit. Before we talk about
Speaker 1: your project to protect and catalog the destruction of Ukraine
Speaker 1: heritage sites, I just wanted to ask you what is
Speaker 1: life like now in Kiev. Our own interview here this
Speaker 1: morning was delayed because there was a power outage. What
Speaker 1: is daily life like in Ukraine's capital right now? It's
Speaker 1: quite crazy right now. It's a bit disturbing. With electricity
Speaker 1: cuts and old blackouts. It is not stable right now.
Speaker 1: You never know when the electric steel cut or when
Speaker 1: it goes up. And so you have traveled around the
Speaker 1: country visiting cities and towns where Russian bombs and missiles
Speaker 1: have destroyed buildings, museums and schools other places, and you
Speaker 1: have seen this destruction around the country. I think the
Speaker 1: war I was in the Kiva Blast, all the Kiva blast.
Speaker 1: I have traveled all the places that the Russian forces
Speaker 1: were staying and trying to capture. In the copy these
Speaker 1: places her Key area, torn Area and the Kiev area
Speaker 1: as well. I want to ask you about one site
Speaker 1: in particular where you came and documented destruction, and that's
Speaker 1: in the city of Ivan, Kiev, about seventy kilometers north
Speaker 1: of Kiev, that's about forty three miles and in that
Speaker 1: town there was a museum of local lore. Can you
Speaker 1: describe what that place was and what happened to it?
Speaker 1: In Vantia they have the Local Lore Museum, which have
Speaker 1: also the picture of famous Ukrainian painter Maria Primachenko. She
Speaker 1: have the very unique style and very impressive pictures. This
Speaker 1: museum was really burned out and damaged. So we also
Speaker 1: managed to have the video recorded the exact moment of
Speaker 1: the missile hitting the building and the fire starts. The
Speaker 1: Russian army started to shell the town and two shells
Speaker 1: hit the Museum of Local Lore and just burned it down. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're right. So as we come to this is museum,
Speaker 1: we heard the stories from the locals and from the
Speaker 1: director herself about the shells. So no other places were
Speaker 1: damaged or burned, but only the museum, right, and what
Speaker 1: was destroyed along with the building, the team of the
Speaker 1: museum they managed to save all the pictures during the fire,
Speaker 1: so they just get into the building through the windows
Speaker 1: and save all the pictures. They actually took them and
Speaker 1: they hid them. Is that right. Yeah, one of the
Speaker 1: missiles had the roof goes through the building and start
Speaker 1: the fire. It was not that obvious that the fire started,
Speaker 1: but after quite a while they saw the fire and
Speaker 1: they decided to just go through the windows and save
Speaker 1: at least they half on there. But they managed to
Speaker 1: save the all the pictures. They took the pictures out
Speaker 1: and then they decided to hide the pictures so that
Speaker 1: Russian troops could not find them. Yeah, yeah, they are
Speaker 1: really worried about the heritage and the cultural objects. So
Speaker 1: then you came some time later, you saw the destruction,
Speaker 1: and then what did you do to document it? Can
Speaker 1: you describe what it is that you do? My method
Speaker 1: is to use a photography tree technique to document or
Speaker 1: to reconstruct the treaty model of exact scene. So we
Speaker 1: are just using the photo camera. I just go through
Speaker 1: all the building and repeat all the sites with my camera.
Speaker 1: And so what you do is you go into the
Speaker 1: building and you take thousands of photographs one after the
Speaker 1: next to try to document the entire building. You're right,
Speaker 1: So basically you've taken as much photos as you can,
Speaker 1: but repeating all the shapes of the building. Imagine if
Speaker 1: you have the square building right like a cube. So
Speaker 1: basically you have to repeat all the sides, all the
Speaker 1: five sides with the roof facing it with the camera.
Speaker 1: As you go through all these sites, you have to
Speaker 1: at least overlay the next shoot with the before one
Speaker 1: you take it at least like thirty or have to
Speaker 1: be included in the next shot before you do the one.
Speaker 1: So you're taking all of these overlapping photographs that when
Speaker 1: you then later put them together in computer software, you're
Speaker 1: able to reconstruct the image of the building. Yeah, you're
Speaker 1: total right. Also using the software to stitch all the
Speaker 1: photos together and reconstructed in the treaty model. Once we
Speaker 1: get the reconstructed treet model through the all of the photos,
Speaker 1: we can manage to you this model and the viewer
Speaker 1: can see all the destructions and all the details as
Speaker 1: though you're actually walking through the building. You can do
Speaker 1: that on the screen, yeah right, And if you were
Speaker 1: with the laptop or even smartphone, can view it and
Speaker 1: see all the scale of the treaty model. When you're
Speaker 1: making these three D virtual models of destroyed buildings, do
Speaker 1: people in the local community help you do this? Is
Speaker 1: this something that becomes something that people participate in. They
Speaker 1: helped us with the all the stories. For example, the
Speaker 1: video they showed us the exact moment of the missile hit.
Speaker 1: It was really shocking and you really could also use
Speaker 1: that as the evidence for investigation. What could people in
Speaker 1: the town tell you about the Museum of local lore
Speaker 1: before it was destroyed? It really was important for a community.
Speaker 1: It was like the local travel spot and the one
Speaker 1: key was the hometown for Maria Primichenko for a long time.
Speaker 1: This is the artist you described to His paintings were
Speaker 1: in the museum. Yeah, yeah, it is really the famous one,
Speaker 1: not only in Ukraine but also internationally. I believe there's
Speaker 1: some quote that because you have about Maria Primachenko, he
Speaker 1: was impressed by her paintings and yeah, this was like
Speaker 1: the really important spot for tourists and for our culture.
Speaker 1: If we lost that, that would be quite a big
Speaker 1: loss on the cultural side. Do you hope that your
Speaker 1: models and your documentation of the destruction in Ukraine will
Speaker 1: one day help hold Russia accountable for what they've done. Definitely,
Speaker 1: I can't reveal all the plans or the things that happened,
Speaker 1: but I'm working on the evidence base to transfer it
Speaker 1: for a special force or at least the investigation cases
Speaker 1: to use the treaty module as the evidence. Why as
Speaker 1: an evidence because all the photos that you've taken, you're
Speaker 1: taken from the different angles, but the exact spot, So
Speaker 1: basically you can't claim that it's never happened, or it's
Speaker 1: like fabula or you created by yourself. It created through
Speaker 1: all the sousands whole photos that you've taken. So this
Speaker 1: is like obvious evidence. Sergey Rabenko, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for joining me. Thank you so much for Hermie. You
Speaker 1: heard Sergey say a minute ago that Pablo Pakaso praised
Speaker 1: Maria Primachenko, the Ukrainian artist. I googled that after we talked,
Speaker 1: and here is what Picasso said quote. I bowed down
Speaker 1: before the artistic miracle of this brilliant Ukrainian After the break,
Speaker 1: how Ukrainians are using the kinds of models that Sergey
Speaker 1: Ravenko was describing just now to preserve what they can
Speaker 1: for future generations. I'm joining out by my colleagues Marie
Speaker 1: Patino and Rachel Dondal, their data and graphics journalists in
Speaker 1: New York. Marie and Rachel, you've put together this compelling
Speaker 1: story for Bloomberg City Lab that combines the models of
Speaker 1: buildings from Sergei Ravenko and a lot of other sources
Speaker 1: of data to visualize the destruction in Ukraine. Can you
Speaker 1: describe how you did this? Maybe, Maria, I'll ask you
Speaker 1: to start. Originally, we got a pitch from a now
Speaker 1: graduate student of Berkeley. Her name is Karina, who is
Speaker 1: originally from Kharkiv in Ukraine and has been living in
Speaker 1: the United States for a few years studying. She had
Speaker 1: started to put together a list, very specifical list actually
Speaker 1: of specific sites in Ukraine that had been destroyed during
Speaker 1: the invasion since February. So she sent to us like
Speaker 1: that massive data sets of strikes that she had recorded
Speaker 1: and kind of like fact checked through different sources on
Speaker 1: social media but also on like local kind of like
Speaker 1: news websites and everything. So we really started from here.
Speaker 1: We're graphics journalists and data journalists, so when we were
Speaker 1: approaching this story, we were thinking about what visuals we
Speaker 1: could include, and so we were looking online for these
Speaker 1: potential three D models and visuals of some of the
Speaker 1: important sites that had been damaged, and we found Sergey
Speaker 1: who is an architect in Kiev, and he had scanned
Speaker 1: different cultural sites that had been destroyed and he created
Speaker 1: these pretty incredible three D models that are very detailed.
Speaker 1: We contacted him and he was willing to help us
Speaker 1: and willing to share his work, and so that's kind
Speaker 1: of how got started with some of the visuals in
Speaker 1: the piece. Is it the belief of the government that
Speaker 1: Russia is deliberately targeting Ukraine's cultural heritage. Everyone that we
Speaker 1: spoke to, many of the Ukrainian citizens that we spoke
Speaker 1: to believe that these damage and destruction is not accidental,
Speaker 1: but it's very targeted. Rachel. What are people in these
Speaker 1: towns where cultural sites have been targeted? What are they
Speaker 1: doing to protect what's still there? What are they doing
Speaker 1: to try to collect what has been damaged but not destroyed,
Speaker 1: to keep it from being damaged further, There's been quite
Speaker 1: a lot of grassroots efforts by ordinary Ukrainian citizens to
Speaker 1: protect monuments, putting sandbags around statues, to remove paintings from
Speaker 1: burning buildings, in order to protect the art of folklore
Speaker 1: artists of Ukrainian origin. Ordinary citizens have really stepped up
Speaker 1: in physical ways to protect these buildings and monuments. But
Speaker 1: also because of Ukraine's huge I T sector, there are
Speaker 1: lots of digital archiving being done by Ukrainians in the
Speaker 1: country and abroad in order to you know, store documents
Speaker 1: on servers that are outside of the country in case
Speaker 1: there's any damage to them. So many different citizens are
Speaker 1: taking things into their own hands in order to protect
Speaker 1: their culture and heritage. After the war is over and
Speaker 1: Ukraine begins to rebuild, they'll also want to rebuild some
Speaker 1: of these cultural sites. A lot of what has been
Speaker 1: lost cannot be replaced, precious artwork and other artifacts. What
Speaker 1: is the government doing to actually try to think about
Speaker 1: how they will preserve and then restore the cultural heritage
Speaker 1: of the country. The question that we've heard from lots
Speaker 1: of the architects that they're thinking about now is not
Speaker 1: how much it will cost, but how they'll preserve certain
Speaker 1: memories of these destroyed sites, how they'll preserve the fact
Speaker 1: that these were destroyed in war, and how they'll take
Speaker 1: certain sites and think about remembrance for the lives lost
Speaker 1: or the cultural significant objects or buildings that were destroyed.
Speaker 1: It's hard to estimate how much it's actually going to
Speaker 1: cost to rebuild a certain church or a museum, but
Speaker 1: the conversations that we've heard are a lot about what
Speaker 1: will be rebuilt, what will be remembered, what will be restored,
Speaker 1: and what will just be kept in its destroyed state
Speaker 1: to serve as a memorial. Ukrainian is now who are
Speaker 1: seeing all of this being destroyed will know what they've lost,
Speaker 1: but younger generations will never have the benefit of having
Speaker 1: seen this. How are young people looking at the future
Speaker 1: of Ukraine's culture when so much of its past has
Speaker 1: been destroyed. I think that's where a lot of the
Speaker 1: digital records will come in. We've seen, you know, students
Speaker 1: on social media posting about sites that they've seen in
Speaker 1: photos or in videos that have been damaged, and there's
Speaker 1: this huge effort to record the destruction it's happening in
Speaker 1: the sites and marking these sites on maps and knowing
Speaker 1: which churches have been damaged. From what we've seen, a
Speaker 1: lot of young people are very much involved in recording
Speaker 1: the actual on the ground damage that's going on in
Speaker 1: their cities, and that kind of contributes to a collective
Speaker 1: remembrance and a collective documentation that can then hopefully be
Speaker 1: used to not forget and to remember and to possibly
Speaker 1: reconstruct our memorialize. Rachel Doddald and Marie Patino, thanks so
Speaker 1: much for taking the time. Thank you, Thank you. You
Speaker 1: can see Marie Patino and Rachel Doddle's immersive visual story
Speaker 1: with photos and the three D models we've been talking
Speaker 1: about on Bloomberg dot com. Thanks for listening to us
Speaker 1: here at the Big Take the Daily podcast from Bloomberg
Speaker 1: and I Heart Radio. For more shows from my heart Radio,
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