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Speaker 1: It's the big take from Bloomberg News and I Heart Radio.

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Speaker 1: I'm Westksova today Ukraine's fight to protect its cultural heritage

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Speaker 1: from Russian missiles. Russia's invasion of Ukraine has left thousands

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Speaker 1: dead and devastated cities across the country. Less visible is

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Speaker 1: the widespread destruction of Ukrainian culture and identity. Russia's military

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Speaker 1: has targeted libraries and museums that housed irreplaceable books and

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Speaker 1: documents and works of art. Now, with the help of

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Speaker 1: technology like advanced digital modeling, Ukrainians are working to document

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Speaker 1: what's been destroyed and preserve what can be salvage for

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Speaker 1: future generations. In a moment, I speak with an architect

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Speaker 1: in Kiev who's doing this. He's creating three D visual

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Speaker 1: models of bombed Ukrainian cultural sites. But first, Bloomberg Senior

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Speaker 1: International Affairs reporter Mark Champion joins me from London to

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Speaker 1: help us makes sense of where the war is heading. Mark,

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Speaker 1: You've traveled around Ukraine several times this year reporting on

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Speaker 1: the war. Russia recently had yet another big setback when

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Speaker 1: Ukraine's military took back the city of Kersan in the south,

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Speaker 1: and in the months before that, Russia had resorting increasing

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Speaker 1: its long range missile attacks because its troops weren't gaining ground.

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Speaker 1: So clear the war isn't going well for Putin. How

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Speaker 1: should we think about Russia's strategy in Ukraine right now? Really,

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Speaker 1: they seem to have a dual purpose here. One and

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Speaker 1: probably the main one, is to try and persuade the West,

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Speaker 1: in particular that this has to stop, and to negotiate

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Speaker 1: some sort of ceasefire and stop the war, which the

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Speaker 1: Russians essentially aren't losing, slowly but losing. A second goal

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Speaker 1: is really to punish and to make it clear to

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Speaker 1: the Ukrainians that unless they come to some kind of

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Speaker 1: agreement with the Russians, the punishment will be severe. And

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Speaker 1: Russia has the capacity to just continued doing that. And

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Speaker 1: yet it doesn't seem like either of those things is

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Speaker 1: going to happen. The West seems more resolved than ever

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Speaker 1: to help Ukraine, and certainly the Ukrainian people, the Ukrainian

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Speaker 1: army and the government don't show any signs of backing down.

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Speaker 1: I think that's absolutely right, and really the story of

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Speaker 1: this war is a series of massive miscalculations by the Russians,

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Speaker 1: by Putin, himself. Ukraine's forces are continuing a rapid advance

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Speaker 1: in the Hockey of region, exploiting an extraordinary collapse of

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Speaker 1: Russian defenses. The Kremlin now plans to hold referendums in

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Speaker 1: Ukrainian territories occupied by its troops. President Vladimir Putin announced

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Speaker 1: a partial mobilization and pledge to annex the territories his

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Speaker 1: forces have already occupied in Ukraine. You've traveled around Ukraine.

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Speaker 1: What do you see when you speak to people? What

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Speaker 1: do they tell you? You know, you have to generalize,

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Speaker 1: but I would say that it's pretty consistent that there

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Speaker 1: is number one just anger, an absolute fury at what

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Speaker 1: Russia is inflicting on Ukraine. And you have to remember

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Speaker 1: that this was not an anti Russian country before two

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Speaker 1: thousand and fourteen. It became increasingly so after two thousand

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Speaker 1: and fourteen, when Russia and next Crimea and began an

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Speaker 1: insurgency in the eastern Dompass region. Violence in Ukraine shifting

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Speaker 1: to Crimea. Gunmen took over parliament and other government buildings overnight,

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Speaker 1: they raised the Russian flag. It's estimated there about a

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Speaker 1: hundred twenty gunmen. Russia has a naval based in the

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Speaker 1: region were putin the President of Russia supporting a request

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Speaker 1: from Crimea to join the countries. But since this war,

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Speaker 1: it is very difficult to find even among Russian speakers

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Speaker 1: in towns like you know, Odessa, Mikliath and so on,

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Speaker 1: which are towns that have long historical ties and familial

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Speaker 1: ties with Russia. It's hard to find people with anything

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Speaker 1: good to say about Russia. Now. The second thing to

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Speaker 1: say would be that something that has changed in the

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Speaker 1: last few months and since the campaign, when the Ukrainians

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Speaker 1: had this very successful counter offensive up in the Harkeet region,

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Speaker 1: and since then, there's a belief that actually the Ukrainians

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Speaker 1: can will win. I believe among the people, yes, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: among the people, among the military, in the government, there

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Speaker 1: is a very very profound belief that they well win.

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Speaker 1: And they also feel that, you know, they do have

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Speaker 1: the support of the West, which has all these modern weapons.

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Speaker 1: President Biden says the US will give Ukraine as much

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Speaker 1: as six hundred million dollars in additional weapons and ammunition.

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Speaker 1: The high mars, these long range pieces of artillery that

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Speaker 1: have allowed the Ukrainians to strike at logistics supply lines

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Speaker 1: far behind the front lines of the Russians. These have

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Speaker 1: proved incredibly strategically important but also psychologically because they've given

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Speaker 1: Ukrainians belief that even if they don't have a tenth

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Speaker 1: of the artillery pieces, that the Russians have, what they

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Speaker 1: have because it's modern, because it's Western and so on,

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Speaker 1: will enable them to do what they need to do

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Speaker 1: and to prevail. And this is very important because so

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Speaker 1: long as you they believe that they can win, the

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Speaker 1: incentive to sit down and negotiate a piece with Russians

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Speaker 1: still occupying about twenty of the country is close to zero.

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Speaker 1: Is that believe well founded? Will Russia eventually back down

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Speaker 1: if they're not able to gain more ground? Is that

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Speaker 1: seem realistic? Yes? There are two separate questions here. One

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Speaker 1: is whether the Ukrainians can continue to push the Russians

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Speaker 1: back on the battlefield in a conventional war that we're

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Speaker 1: now engaged in, and the answer that is probably yes.

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Speaker 1: It will be slow, difficult, but probably yes. The second

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Speaker 1: question is whether the Russians will back down, And we

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Speaker 1: have to remember that they are a massive nuclear power,

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Speaker 1: and that they have a lot of other kinds of resources,

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Speaker 1: and that this can get very ugly. This is one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons why it feels like a more dangerous

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Speaker 1: period in the war, and that I suppose has a

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Speaker 1: lot to do with Vladimir Putin himself and how much

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Speaker 1: he personally has invested his own credibility, the future and

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Speaker 1: credibility of Russia in this invasion. The stakes for him

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Speaker 1: are enormous. He began this war in in order to

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Speaker 1: just consolidate his legacy, and he's talked about it specifically

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Speaker 1: openly in terms of Peter the Great, Catherine the Great

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Speaker 1: and the gathering, the regathering of Russian lands. Very important

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Speaker 1: for him to talk about the regathering. So the implication

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Speaker 1: is that we're just taking back what's ours, setting it

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Speaker 1: out in those kind of very kind of grand terms,

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Speaker 1: historical terms, this is my place in history. And then

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Speaker 1: to be defeated and to be pushed back, to have

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Speaker 1: lost tens of thousands of your own soldiers, to have

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Speaker 1: destroyed the relationship with, you know, the most important neighbor

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Speaker 1: that Russia has, you know, in terms of the former

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Speaker 1: Soviet Union Ukraine, these would be extraordinary defeats for him. Politically,

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Speaker 1: it could be very difficult for him to survive it.

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Speaker 1: You lived and worked in Moscow for years do you

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Speaker 1: have a sense of how much support Putent has from

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Speaker 1: the Russian people. He's very good at making people fear him,

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Speaker 1: but do they believe in this Guys, he has been

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Speaker 1: very popular. I don't feel like I really have my

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Speaker 1: finger on the pulse of Russian thought today. But what

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Speaker 1: I would say is that even when I lived there

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Speaker 1: in the nineties, when the sort of tide of opinion

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Speaker 1: was very pro western, I could count on less than

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Speaker 1: one hand the number of Russians I knew who thought

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Speaker 1: the Ukraine as a country. So this runs deep the

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Speaker 1: idea that Ukraine is not a real country. It's been

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Speaker 1: taught in history classes and so on for Russians in

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Speaker 1: over many, many decades, and that kind of created an

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Speaker 1: open door for Putting too push for many people. They

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Speaker 1: really have responded quite well, after all, the humiliation of

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Speaker 1: the collapse of the Soviet Union in the ninety nineties,

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Speaker 1: the poverty and so on, to the idea that not

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Speaker 1: only did they re establish the oil industry, re established

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Speaker 1: the economy, start doing better, but also they're becoming, you know,

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Speaker 1: re establishing themselves as a great path And Russians have

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Speaker 1: a very strong idea of the state and of the

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Speaker 1: importance of the state, and of the importance of the

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Speaker 1: state is a great power. If he got this right,

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Speaker 1: if he had succeeded, he would have made his place

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Speaker 1: in Russian history and it would have been extremely popular,

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Speaker 1: just as the annexation of Crimea was incredibly popular back

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Speaker 1: in two thousand and fourteen. Mark later in this episode,

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Speaker 1: we're going to be talking about how Russia's bombing of

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Speaker 1: cultural sites has done great damage to centuries worth of

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Speaker 1: Ukrainian history and artwork and literature. In the beginning of

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Speaker 1: the war, it seemed like the goal of Russia was

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Speaker 1: to conquer Ukraine, to take it over, as they try

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Speaker 1: to do in to sort of finish that job. Is

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Speaker 1: it fair enough to say that in part there is

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Speaker 1: also a goal to sort of destroy Ukraine as a country,

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Speaker 1: as a people, as a culture. I think that is

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Speaker 1: probably right. I mean, we can only really speculate as

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Speaker 1: to what the motives are, but that's what it looks like.

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Speaker 1: It looks punitive, and it looks like the message that's

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Speaker 1: being sent is that we may not be able to win,

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Speaker 1: but you cannot. Even if Russia is not able to

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Speaker 1: conquer Ukraine and to control it, it can destroy Ukraine

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Speaker 1: asn't prevent it becoming the Ukrainian nation that it's. You know,

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Speaker 1: Russia has encouraged it to become, and they can destroy

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Speaker 1: that identity. They can try and destroy its culture, They

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Speaker 1: can try and destroy the cities, make them unlivable, make

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Speaker 1: the economy unworkable. Basically say to the Ukrainians, you know,

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Speaker 1: even if we can't conquer you, you're gonna have to

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Speaker 1: come to some kind of arrangement with us, because we

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Speaker 1: will simply grind you into the ground and there will

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Speaker 1: be no nice future for Ukraine as a prosperous European

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Speaker 1: Union state. That I think is the message that the

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Speaker 1: Russians are are sending. But as I say, that's largely inference.

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Speaker 1: Given all of this, what do you see when you

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Speaker 1: look ahead six months a year from now, which Russian

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Speaker 1: is this word likely to take? If you're able to

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Speaker 1: tell at all, None of us know, of course. The

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Speaker 1: only thing I can say is that, you know, my

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Speaker 1: best analysis in this very moment would be that we

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Speaker 1: will still be at war in six months time. It

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Speaker 1: will be extremely nasty, will continue to be extremely nasty.

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Speaker 1: The Russians will not give up, The Ukrainians will not

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Speaker 1: give up the huge, huge variable. There is the question

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Speaker 1: of some kind of mass destruction event, some event that

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Speaker 1: changes the game and forces some alteration of path. It's

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Speaker 1: very unpredictable as to exactly what will happen at what

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Speaker 1: moment and you know where that final moment of near

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Speaker 1: collision comes or collision. Mark Champion, thanks so much for

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Speaker 1: taking the time. Thank you. After the break, how one

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Speaker 1: Ukrainian architect is using technology to digitally recreate destroyed buildings.

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Speaker 1: After Russia targeted cultural sites across Ukraine, people there began

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Speaker 1: documenting the destruction. In part it was so they could

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Speaker 1: say what they could, but also as evidence of what

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Speaker 1: Russia had done. One of the people doing this is

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Speaker 1: Sergei Ravenco is an architect who specializes in building three

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Speaker 1: D virtual models. He spoke to me recently from his

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Speaker 1: office in Kiev, Ukraine's capital circuit. Before we talk about

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Speaker 1: your project to protect and catalog the destruction of Ukraine

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Speaker 1: heritage sites, I just wanted to ask you what is

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Speaker 1: life like now in Kiev. Our own interview here this

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Speaker 1: morning was delayed because there was a power outage. What

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Speaker 1: is daily life like in Ukraine's capital right now? It's

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Speaker 1: quite crazy right now. It's a bit disturbing. With electricity

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Speaker 1: cuts and old blackouts. It is not stable right now.

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Speaker 1: You never know when the electric steel cut or when

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Speaker 1: it goes up. And so you have traveled around the

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Speaker 1: country visiting cities and towns where Russian bombs and missiles

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Speaker 1: have destroyed buildings, museums and schools other places, and you

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Speaker 1: have seen this destruction around the country. I think the

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Speaker 1: war I was in the Kiva Blast, all the Kiva blast.

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Speaker 1: I have traveled all the places that the Russian forces

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Speaker 1: were staying and trying to capture. In the copy these

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Speaker 1: places her Key area, torn Area and the Kiev area

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Speaker 1: as well. I want to ask you about one site

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Speaker 1: in particular where you came and documented destruction, and that's

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Speaker 1: in the city of Ivan, Kiev, about seventy kilometers north

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Speaker 1: of Kiev, that's about forty three miles and in that

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Speaker 1: town there was a museum of local lore. Can you

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Speaker 1: describe what that place was and what happened to it?

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Speaker 1: In Vantia they have the Local Lore Museum, which have

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Speaker 1: also the picture of famous Ukrainian painter Maria Primachenko. She

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Speaker 1: have the very unique style and very impressive pictures. This

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Speaker 1: museum was really burned out and damaged. So we also

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Speaker 1: managed to have the video recorded the exact moment of

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Speaker 1: the missile hitting the building and the fire starts. The

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Speaker 1: hit the Museum of Local Lore and just burned it down. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're right. So as we come to this is museum,

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Speaker 1: we heard the stories from the locals and from the

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Speaker 1: director herself about the shells. So no other places were

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Speaker 1: damaged or burned, but only the museum, right, and what

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Speaker 1: was destroyed along with the building, the team of the

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Speaker 1: museum they managed to save all the pictures during the fire,

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Speaker 1: so they just get into the building through the windows

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Speaker 1: and save all the pictures. They actually took them and

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Speaker 1: they hid them. Is that right. Yeah, one of the

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Speaker 1: missiles had the roof goes through the building and start

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Speaker 1: the fire. It was not that obvious that the fire started,

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Speaker 1: but after quite a while they saw the fire and

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Speaker 1: they decided to just go through the windows and save

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Speaker 1: at least they half on there. But they managed to

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Speaker 1: save the all the pictures. They took the pictures out

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Speaker 1: and then they decided to hide the pictures so that

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Speaker 1: Russian troops could not find them. Yeah, yeah, they are

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Speaker 1: really worried about the heritage and the cultural objects. So

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Speaker 1: then you came some time later, you saw the destruction,

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Speaker 1: and then what did you do to document it? Can

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Speaker 1: you describe what it is that you do? My method

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Speaker 1: is to use a photography tree technique to document or

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Speaker 1: to reconstruct the treaty model of exact scene. So we

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Speaker 1: are just using the photo camera. I just go through

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Speaker 1: all the building and repeat all the sites with my camera.

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Speaker 1: And so what you do is you go into the

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Speaker 1: building and you take thousands of photographs one after the

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Speaker 1: next to try to document the entire building. You're right,

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Speaker 1: So basically you've taken as much photos as you can,

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Speaker 1: but repeating all the shapes of the building. Imagine if

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Speaker 1: you have the square building right like a cube. So

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Speaker 1: basically you have to repeat all the sides, all the

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Speaker 1: five sides with the roof facing it with the camera.

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Speaker 1: As you go through all these sites, you have to

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Speaker 1: at least overlay the next shoot with the before one

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Speaker 1: you take it at least like thirty or have to

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Speaker 1: be included in the next shot before you do the one.

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Speaker 1: So you're taking all of these overlapping photographs that when

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Speaker 1: you then later put them together in computer software, you're

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Speaker 1: able to reconstruct the image of the building. Yeah, you're

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Speaker 1: total right. Also using the software to stitch all the

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Speaker 1: photos together and reconstructed in the treaty model. Once we

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Speaker 1: get the reconstructed treet model through the all of the photos,

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Speaker 1: we can manage to you this model and the viewer

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Speaker 1: can see all the destructions and all the details as

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Speaker 1: though you're actually walking through the building. You can do

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Speaker 1: that on the screen, yeah right, And if you were

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Speaker 1: with the laptop or even smartphone, can view it and

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Speaker 1: see all the scale of the treaty model. When you're

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Speaker 1: making these three D virtual models of destroyed buildings, do

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Speaker 1: people in the local community help you do this? Is

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Speaker 1: this something that becomes something that people participate in. They

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Speaker 1: helped us with the all the stories. For example, the

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Speaker 1: video they showed us the exact moment of the missile hit.

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Speaker 1: It was really shocking and you really could also use

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Speaker 1: that as the evidence for investigation. What could people in

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Speaker 1: the town tell you about the Museum of local lore

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Speaker 1: before it was destroyed? It really was important for a community.

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Speaker 1: It was like the local travel spot and the one

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Speaker 1: key was the hometown for Maria Primichenko for a long time.

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Speaker 1: This is the artist you described to His paintings were

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Speaker 1: in the museum. Yeah, yeah, it is really the famous one,

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Speaker 1: not only in Ukraine but also internationally. I believe there's

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Speaker 1: some quote that because you have about Maria Primachenko, he

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Speaker 1: was impressed by her paintings and yeah, this was like

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Speaker 1: the really important spot for tourists and for our culture.

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Speaker 1: If we lost that, that would be quite a big

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Speaker 1: loss on the cultural side. Do you hope that your

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Speaker 1: models and your documentation of the destruction in Ukraine will

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Speaker 1: one day help hold Russia accountable for what they've done. Definitely,

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Speaker 1: I can't reveal all the plans or the things that happened,

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Speaker 1: but I'm working on the evidence base to transfer it

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Speaker 1: for a special force or at least the investigation cases

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Speaker 1: to use the treaty module as the evidence. Why as

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Speaker 1: an evidence because all the photos that you've taken, you're

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Speaker 1: taken from the different angles, but the exact spot, So

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Speaker 1: basically you can't claim that it's never happened, or it's

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Speaker 1: like fabula or you created by yourself. It created through

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Speaker 1: all the sousands whole photos that you've taken. So this

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Speaker 1: is like obvious evidence. Sergey Rabenko, thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me. Thank you so much for Hermie. You

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Speaker 1: heard Sergey say a minute ago that Pablo Pakaso praised

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Speaker 1: Maria Primachenko, the Ukrainian artist. I googled that after we talked,

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Speaker 1: and here is what Picasso said quote. I bowed down

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Speaker 1: before the artistic miracle of this brilliant Ukrainian After the break,

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Speaker 1: how Ukrainians are using the kinds of models that Sergey

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Speaker 1: Ravenko was describing just now to preserve what they can

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Speaker 1: for future generations. I'm joining out by my colleagues Marie

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Speaker 1: Patino and Rachel Dondal, their data and graphics journalists in

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Speaker 1: New York. Marie and Rachel, you've put together this compelling

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Speaker 1: story for Bloomberg City Lab that combines the models of

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Speaker 1: buildings from Sergei Ravenko and a lot of other sources

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Speaker 1: of data to visualize the destruction in Ukraine. Can you

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Speaker 1: describe how you did this? Maybe, Maria, I'll ask you

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Speaker 1: to start. Originally, we got a pitch from a now

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Speaker 1: graduate student of Berkeley. Her name is Karina, who is

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Speaker 1: originally from Kharkiv in Ukraine and has been living in

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Speaker 1: the United States for a few years studying. She had

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Speaker 1: started to put together a list, very specifical list actually

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Speaker 1: of specific sites in Ukraine that had been destroyed during

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Speaker 1: the invasion since February. So she sent to us like

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Speaker 1: that massive data sets of strikes that she had recorded

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Speaker 1: and kind of like fact checked through different sources on

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Speaker 1: social media but also on like local kind of like

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Speaker 1: news websites and everything. So we really started from here.

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Speaker 1: We're graphics journalists and data journalists, so when we were

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Speaker 1: approaching this story, we were thinking about what visuals we

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Speaker 1: could include, and so we were looking online for these

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Speaker 1: potential three D models and visuals of some of the

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Speaker 1: important sites that had been damaged, and we found Sergey

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Speaker 1: who is an architect in Kiev, and he had scanned

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Speaker 1: different cultural sites that had been destroyed and he created

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Speaker 1: these pretty incredible three D models that are very detailed.

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Speaker 1: We contacted him and he was willing to help us

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Speaker 1: and willing to share his work, and so that's kind

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Speaker 1: of how got started with some of the visuals in

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Speaker 1: the piece. Is it the belief of the government that

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Speaker 1: Russia is deliberately targeting Ukraine's cultural heritage. Everyone that we

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Speaker 1: spoke to, many of the Ukrainian citizens that we spoke

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Speaker 1: to believe that these damage and destruction is not accidental,

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Speaker 1: but it's very targeted. Rachel. What are people in these

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Speaker 1: towns where cultural sites have been targeted? What are they

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Speaker 1: doing to protect what's still there? What are they doing

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Speaker 1: to try to collect what has been damaged but not destroyed,

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Speaker 1: to keep it from being damaged further, There's been quite

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Speaker 1: a lot of grassroots efforts by ordinary Ukrainian citizens to

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Speaker 1: protect monuments, putting sandbags around statues, to remove paintings from

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Speaker 1: burning buildings, in order to protect the art of folklore

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Speaker 1: artists of Ukrainian origin. Ordinary citizens have really stepped up

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Speaker 1: in physical ways to protect these buildings and monuments. But

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Speaker 1: also because of Ukraine's huge I T sector, there are

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Speaker 1: lots of digital archiving being done by Ukrainians in the

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Speaker 1: country and abroad in order to you know, store documents

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Speaker 1: on servers that are outside of the country in case

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Speaker 1: there's any damage to them. So many different citizens are

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Speaker 1: taking things into their own hands in order to protect

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Speaker 1: their culture and heritage. After the war is over and

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Speaker 1: Ukraine begins to rebuild, they'll also want to rebuild some

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Speaker 1: of these cultural sites. A lot of what has been

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Speaker 1: lost cannot be replaced, precious artwork and other artifacts. What

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Speaker 1: is the government doing to actually try to think about

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Speaker 1: how they will preserve and then restore the cultural heritage

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Speaker 1: of the country. The question that we've heard from lots

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Speaker 1: of the architects that they're thinking about now is not

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Speaker 1: how much it will cost, but how they'll preserve certain

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Speaker 1: memories of these destroyed sites, how they'll preserve the fact

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Speaker 1: that these were destroyed in war, and how they'll take

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Speaker 1: certain sites and think about remembrance for the lives lost

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Speaker 1: or the cultural significant objects or buildings that were destroyed.

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Speaker 1: It's hard to estimate how much it's actually going to

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Speaker 1: cost to rebuild a certain church or a museum, but

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Speaker 1: the conversations that we've heard are a lot about what

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Speaker 1: will be rebuilt, what will be remembered, what will be restored,

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Speaker 1: and what will just be kept in its destroyed state

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Speaker 1: to serve as a memorial. Ukrainian is now who are

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Speaker 1: seeing all of this being destroyed will know what they've lost,

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Speaker 1: but younger generations will never have the benefit of having

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Speaker 1: seen this. How are young people looking at the future

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Speaker 1: of Ukraine's culture when so much of its past has

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Speaker 1: been destroyed. I think that's where a lot of the

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Speaker 1: digital records will come in. We've seen, you know, students

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Speaker 1: on social media posting about sites that they've seen in

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Speaker 1: photos or in videos that have been damaged, and there's

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Speaker 1: this huge effort to record the destruction it's happening in

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Speaker 1: the sites and marking these sites on maps and knowing

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Speaker 1: which churches have been damaged. From what we've seen, a

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Speaker 1: lot of young people are very much involved in recording

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Speaker 1: the actual on the ground damage that's going on in

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Speaker 1: their cities, and that kind of contributes to a collective

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Speaker 1: remembrance and a collective documentation that can then hopefully be

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Speaker 1: used to not forget and to remember and to possibly

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Speaker 1: reconstruct our memorialize. Rachel Doddald and Marie Patino, thanks so

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Speaker 1: much for taking the time. Thank you, Thank you. You

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Speaker 1: can see Marie Patino and Rachel Doddle's immersive visual story

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Speaker 1: with photos and the three D models we've been talking

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Speaker 1: about on Bloomberg dot com. Thanks for listening to us

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Speaker 1: here at the Big Take the Daily podcast from Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: producer of The Big Take is Vicky Burgalina. Our senior

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