WEBVTT - Clay talks with Ben Shapiro 0:00:02.080 --> 0:00:05.760 This is Wins and Losses with Clay Trevis. Clay talks 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:09.879 with the most entertaining people in sports, entertainment and business. 0:00:10.160 --> 0:00:21.319 Now here's Clay Trevis. Welcome in to out kick the 0:00:21.360 --> 0:00:24.000 coverage the Winds and Losses podcast, where we can have 0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:27.280 some long form conversations with a variety of different figures 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:31.280 that I find to be interesting in the world of sports, business, politics, media, 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:33.319 you name it. We've had a lot of awesome ones. 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:35.080 I encourage you to go back and listen to them. 0:00:35.080 --> 0:00:38.159 And this week's guest is Ben Shapiro at Ben Shapiro 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:40.680 on Twitter. He's got a new book coming out which 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:43.720 I'm about halfway through, How to Destroy America in Three 0:00:43.840 --> 0:00:48.600 Easy Steps. I also read his most recent book, I Believe, 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:51.920 which was which One the Right Side of History, How 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:55.640 Reason and moral purpose made the West Great? Super interesting 0:00:55.640 --> 0:00:59.720 and entertaining books. Ben obviously has a wildly successful show 0:00:59.840 --> 0:01:03.040 and podcast as a part of the Daily Wire team. Ben, 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:05.840 thanks for the time. I imagine releasing a book and 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:08.319 this day and age is is a little bit wacky, 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:10.840 even though you've released several before. Uh, this is a 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:14.240 different kind of vibe, right, I was definitely weird. Um 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:16.440 and I will admit that when I first wrote the book, 0:01:16.440 --> 0:01:18.160 I thought I'd be relevant prior to the election, and 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:19.800 then COVID hit and I thought this is gonna do 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:23.080 wildly irrelevant before the election, and then the entire world 0:01:23.080 --> 0:01:24.920 went up in flames. And it turns out its relevant again. 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:27.720 Sometimes I just sent the news cycle properly. All Right, 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:30.240 I want to dive into sports with you, because I've 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:32.360 been on your show before talking about sports, and I 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:34.039 know you're a pretty big sports fan, and we talked 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:36.919 as a jumping off point to a lot of different 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:39.400 people with sports as a sort of the connective tissue 0:01:39.480 --> 0:01:42.360 or fabric. So let's start here. You grew up a 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:45.480 fan of which teams in which part of the country 0:01:45.480 --> 0:01:48.080 when you were a kid. So I grew up in 0:01:48.200 --> 0:01:50.640 l a and I'm a Chicago White tox fan primarily. 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:53.680 And then in terms of secondary sports for me, um 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:56.600 Boston Celtics fan and in Chicago Bears fans. I picked 0:01:56.640 --> 0:01:58.800 up all my dad's allegiances. It's really the short story there. 0:01:58.800 --> 0:02:00.920 My dad's from Chicago. When he was growing up, there 0:02:00.960 --> 0:02:03.400 really wasn't a Chicago basketball team. He went to college 0:02:03.400 --> 0:02:05.600 in Boston. Uh and because he did that he'd became 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:07.720 a Celtics fan. So I was. I grew up with 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:09.800 Celtics fan in l A, which went well for me 0:02:09.880 --> 0:02:13.160 during my childhood. It was really great. So how big 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:15.160 of a sports fan were you? I mean, obviously you 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:17.280 went on to law school like I did, and uh, 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:20.320 and many people go on to more serious things in life. 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:22.960 Sports is kind of always the toy chest of life. 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:25.720 But when you were a kid growing up, were you a, Hey, 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:27.440 in the morning, I'm going to put on Sports Center, 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:29.880 see who won the night before, watch the highlights while 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:33.360 breakfast before I go to school. How committed would you 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:35.720 say you were to the teams you grew up rooting for? 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:38.079 Oh yeah, I was. I was. You know, I'm gonna 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:39.880 run out to the I'm gonna run out of the curve, 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:42.320 I'm gonna grab the box scores, I'm gonna come back 0:02:42.320 --> 0:02:44.000 and I wake up at six am to watch the 0:02:44.040 --> 0:02:46.400 early Sports Center. So yeah, I mean I was. I 0:02:46.440 --> 0:02:49.440 was a sports nut, uh, in particularly baseball. My dad 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:51.120 and I actually co wrote a book about the about 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:54.120 the Chicago I talked two thousand and five World Serious season. 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:57.120 So a huge, huge sports fan. I mean, yesterday I 0:02:57.200 --> 0:02:59.320 was watching and I'm so desperate for content. At this point, 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:01.520 I was watching the pre season Socks and Cubs game 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:06.640 in an empty stadium, watching backup relievers get raked. So yeah, 0:03:06.680 --> 0:03:09.840 I mean I remained a very large I made a 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:14.000 very large sports tin. Did you play growing up? Yeah, 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:16.320 but I'm I'm a five nine jew now, so I 0:03:16.360 --> 0:03:21.120 was never I'm a good contact hiner, So I was 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:25.400 I was gonna ask. I think it feels like every kid, 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:28.399 and basically everybody who's listening to us, with a few 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:32.880 exceptions who actually ended up being professional athletes. But you 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:36.480 have this sort of harsh realization for all kids at 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:38.360 some age, and for some of us it comes a 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:41.800 lot younger than others. For a lot of them, you know, 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:44.440 it comes in high school, whenever it might be. Do 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:48.800 you remember the age you were when you suddenly realized, hey, 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:51.040 wait a minute, I'm not going to end up being 0:03:51.080 --> 0:03:53.840 a major league baseball player. Yeah, I was thinking it 0:03:53.880 --> 0:03:56.720 was probably thirteen, and it was pretty devastating. I mean, 0:03:56.720 --> 0:03:58.160 I played in Little league and I was I was 0:03:58.160 --> 0:03:59.920 pretty good. I mean I played second bags and I 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:02.520 was I could switch hit, and I was able to 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:04.000 go to the cage even hit an eight miles an hour, 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:05.560 but it wasn't like I had any sort of power, 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:08.160 and my arm wasn't strong enough for me to make 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:10.800 the third base throw, you know, really on the line. 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:12.240 And so at that point I was like, Okay, you know, 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:14.320 this one's pretty much done, so I'm gonna go to 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:19.320 the traditional Jewish pastimes of violin and laying. So that's 0:04:19.400 --> 0:04:20.960 that's where it was. I've been a violent since I 0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:23.120 was five. Anyway, it was okay, I can let these 0:04:23.120 --> 0:04:25.360 groundballs wrap up my hands, or I can continue to 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:28.240 play violent like a good Jewish kid. When did when 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:30.640 did you? Where did you go to college? I went 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:33.240 for college, and then I went to Harvard to law school. Yeah, 0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:34.800 so okay, so when you were at U c l 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:38.440 A for college. So I went back recently and found 0:04:38.440 --> 0:04:41.320 the very first thing that I had ever had published 0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:44.400 under my name. Uh and I didn't find it. Actually 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:46.760 one of my listeners did, but I told the story. 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:50.200 I was eighteen years old. I was a freshman in 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:54.080 college at George Washington UM, and there was a front 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:57.760 page article because there was a protest over an executive 0:04:58.640 --> 0:05:01.800 I guess it was body vice president or something of 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:05.040 the school who would use the phrase rule of thumb. 0:05:05.480 --> 0:05:07.960 And somebody was offended about the use of the phrase 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:10.200 rule of thumb, and so I wrote in talking about 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:12.760 how ridiculous it was. And I went back and I 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:15.400 read that letter to the editor to the student newspaper, 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:18.320 and it was kind of amazing to see at you know, 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:22.400 I'm forty one now, but twenty plus years ago I 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:24.640 was fighting the same battles that I feel like i'm 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:26.760 fighting now for people out there who are like, oh, 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:30.440 you've changed. Literally, other than maybe using a few bigger 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:32.280 words when I was eighteen because I was trying to 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:35.440 show off my vocabulary, I really am not very much 0:05:35.480 --> 0:05:36.960 different in the way that I would think about the 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:40.479 First Amendment and many other different issues than I would 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:42.159 have when I was eighteen. That's not to say that 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:45.080 I have perfect, you know, opinions or anything else. It's 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:48.320 just there's a consistency there for you. When you went 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:50.960 away to college at eighteen, had you developed your own 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:54.280 political philosophy at that point or was it still evolving? 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:56.960 I mean I think it was. It was still evolving 0:05:57.000 --> 0:05:58.640 a little bit. It was fairly well developed. I mean 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:01.440 I went to college, not sixteen, So I started UCL. 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:02.839 I went out of sixteen, and I was living at 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:06.400 home and my first piece that I wrote was about 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:08.200 Israel because I had walked on campus and the first 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:10.359 thing I saw was a piece in the student newspaper 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:13.480 that compared to drill untime Minister Auriol Rod with Adolf 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:15.800 by Ahmen Nazi uh. And I thought, well, this doesn't 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:18.200 sound right. So I started walking into the Daily brewin 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:20.520 offices and I wrote a counterpiece. Uh. And then a 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:22.120 few weeks later I was walking through and I was 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:24.480 the only person who's relatively conservative they never heard of. 0:06:24.880 --> 0:06:27.159 So as I was walking through the office, they were like, oh, yeah, 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:29.560 we've got this piece that somebody's writing about how sanctions 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:30.960 on towns and stander bad. You want to write the 0:06:31.000 --> 0:06:33.640 counterpoint and to turn into sort of a point counterpoint thing. 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:35.840 And then I turned it into a normal column for 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:37.440 the U c l I paper. Um, but yeah, I 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:39.640 mean my my politics was I would say, you know, 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:42.120 I was only sixteen, so it was somewhat well developed. 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:43.720 I got more well developed as time went on. But 0:06:43.760 --> 0:06:45.480 I had a syndicated column when I was seventeen, and 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:48.800 I had my first published at twenty, So I would 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:50.040 say that I was more of a dick when I 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:52.360 was like seventeen. But I'm not sure who wasn't when 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:55.760 they were seventeen. So what was the reaction when you're 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:58.640 the sixteen year old kid writing in the Daily Bruin newspaper. 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:01.280 I mean that had to be uh, pretty energy. I mean, 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:04.400 I would imagine pretty impressive to your parents, but also 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:07.080 to you. It had to be pretty cool to be 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:09.800 able to start to influence perceptions even if it's on 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:13.160 a local student newspaper at that time. Yeah, it's pretty neat. 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:15.320 I mean I I I really enjoyed it. It was 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:17.040 a lot of fun. It became one of the most 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:18.760 widely read columns on the paper because it's the only 0:07:18.800 --> 0:07:21.080 thing that wasn't sort of repeating party line. Uh. And 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:22.880 then when I was seventeen, I turned to my dad 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:24.600 and I've been writing for the Daily Run for maybe 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:26.800 a year and a half, and uh, and I said, 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:28.560 do you think that my stuff is good enough to 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:30.760 be published in like a normal paper? And he had 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:32.920 been reading I think it's Mona Charon who was syndicated 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:35.520 by Creator Syndicate, And he said, let me let me 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:37.720 see if they take submissions. So I just submitted my 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:40.680 stuff cold to creator syndicate, and they came back three 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:43.200 weeks later and offered me a weekly column. Uh, and 0:07:43.320 --> 0:07:45.440 they didn't know hold I was. They knew I was young, 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:47.080 and they didn't know I seventeen. So my parents actually 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:50.040 had to sign the contract team to sign a contract 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:52.960 in California. So I actually started writing when I was 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:56.360 a team for for the for the syndicate, and then 0:07:56.440 --> 0:07:58.320 that meant that it was going out to ten twelve papers. 0:07:58.400 --> 0:08:00.720 Now it's I've been writing every weeks since I was 0:08:01.040 --> 0:08:04.120 eighteen for them, So that means it's now been eighteen years. 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:07.400 And that means that I've written, you know, hundreds and 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:09.680 hundreds and hundreds of columns. It is the column it's 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:12.160 it's still going, it's still printed and probably a hundred 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:14.760 papers across the country at this point. Did you ever 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:18.040 practice a law, Oh yeah, I did, So I went 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:19.800 to I went to law school and then I and 0:08:19.840 --> 0:08:22.200 then I write. Out of law school, you got these 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:25.400 big debts and and I thought, Okay, I figured I'll 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:26.920 go into real estate. Well, I'll learn real estate and 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:28.880 then make a bundle that way. So I joined up 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:31.640 with a firm called Goodwin Procter in Los Angeles, which 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:34.199 is a big Boston based firm. Um and Uh, I 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:36.760 will say I have the worst interview record of anyone 0:08:36.880 --> 0:08:38.839 in the history of Howard Law School, I think. So 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:42.079 I interviewed at thirty two separate firms. I got one offer, 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:46.559 and what do yeah, what do you attribute that to? Yeah, 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:48.400 I mean it was pretty obvious what it was about. 0:08:48.400 --> 0:08:49.439 It was. It was about the fact that on my 0:08:49.480 --> 0:08:51.360 resume I had the title of my books. So I 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:54.000 had my first book was called Brainwash, How liberal Bias 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:56.760 and doctrinates college Students or something like that. Uh. And 0:08:57.160 --> 0:08:59.400 my second book was about social liberalism and how it 0:08:59.480 --> 0:09:02.360 was bad. And so those were on and they're published 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:04.800 by mainstream houses, right, But I put those on my resume, 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:07.559 and so the interviews would go. I can get a 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:10.440 couple of great kind of law school interview stories. So uh. 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:12.480 And the way it works at Harvard is you don't 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:14.120 go to the firm the interview. They come to interview 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:17.000 you because you're a law student. So well, Vanderbilt. Vanderbilt 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:18.800 Law School does the same thing. They have like these 0:09:18.840 --> 0:09:21.200 little bunker rooms. I don't know what it's like at Harvard, 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:23.640 but they have the on campus interviews and you know, 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:25.839 you walk in and you interview and everything else. So 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:29.480 so yeah, I went through the same sort of process. Yeah, exactly. 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:31.280 So Harvard they do to the childhood towel and then 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:33.760 these really you know, beautifully apportioned rooms and you go 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:36.200 in and people interview you. So I remember one time 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:38.319 I was interviewing and gets some done and the partner 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:40.640 is sitting in the room before I even sit down. 0:09:41.040 --> 0:09:44.079 The partner says, it's always been my like, it's pretty 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:46.199 obvious I'm religious, right ma I war Yama publicly and 0:09:46.240 --> 0:09:48.199 all this before I even sit down. He says, it's 0:09:48.200 --> 0:09:50.599 always been my contention that conservatives and religious people in 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:53.559 general have a Freudian fear of sex. Like before I 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:56.559 hit down for the interview, and I was like, okay, 0:09:56.559 --> 0:09:59.480 well I'm clearly not getting that job. I just so 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:01.679 just a userrated and so I would say half my 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:04.000 interviews sort of weren't like that. And then I went 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:06.800 back to the Harvard Law School officite career services that like, 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:09.920 what's the deal, Like, I graduated, come loud from your university. 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:13.640 I have several published books at this point, like what's happening? 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:15.120 And they said, just take your book after your resume. 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:16.840 I took my books after asume. I got two interviews 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:20.559 next week. Oh that's amazing. So how so, So I 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:23.800 practiced full time for about two years, and I was like, 0:10:23.960 --> 0:10:27.240 this is not for me. And I understand there's a lot. Yeah, 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:29.880 I mean, so how long did you actually last? Oh? 0:10:29.920 --> 0:10:32.960 I lasted ten months. I was working. I was working 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:34.880 in real estate off for ten months. And then I 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:37.880 was so miserable. I just gotten engaged, I just bought 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:40.800 a condo, and right before we're set to get married, 0:10:41.040 --> 0:10:42.800 I turned my wife and I said, I'm miserable. This 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:44.760 is the worst job in the entire world. I'd also 0:10:44.880 --> 0:10:47.480 entered the real estate division and Echogan Proctor in September 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:49.719 of two thousand seven. There is no way. It's a 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:53.280 tough time been September two thousand seven. So I start 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:56.040 working there and I'm literally sitting in this gorgeous office 0:10:56.080 --> 0:10:58.280 overlooking you know, Santa Monica, and you can see all 0:10:58.280 --> 0:10:59.880 the way out to the ocean. And I'm sitting up 0:10:59.920 --> 0:11:02.280 like ten hours a day doing nothing and then being 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:04.319 yelled at by the partner for not building hours. And 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:06.800 and like I remember, I came out of the bathroom 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:08.800 one time and the partners standing right there. It was like, 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:11.079 why aren't you building hours because you don't give ma 0:11:11.080 --> 0:11:13.640 anny work? He's like, won't go rain make Like what 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:17.120 the first your associate, what are you even talking about? 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:18.920 I do doc review right, Like what do you? What 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:21.560 do you say? So, after ten months of his nonsense, 0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:24.320 I quit, uh, and I will. This is actually pretty funny. 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:26.880 I sat down with a couple of the senior associates 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:28.800 and one of them was trying to convince me not 0:11:28.880 --> 0:11:31.880 to quit, and the other one had played college baseball 0:11:31.920 --> 0:11:34.800 I think a uv A and he and he's sitting 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:36.400 there trying to convince me not to quit, and I'm 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:37.800 giving all my reasons why I want to quit. A 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:39.720 miserable I hate this. I think it's a stupid job. 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:42.679 And about halfway through him trying to convince me not 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:45.040 to quit, he turns to the other senior associate and 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:49.920 he goes, maybe I should quit. The other senior associates 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:52.240 trying to explain to him by even though he's miserable, 0:11:52.280 --> 0:11:54.640 he shouldn't quit. And then I went into the partner 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:56.360 told him that I wanted to quit, and the partner's 0:11:56.400 --> 0:12:00.120 first response was, you understand that you'll never make his money. Well, 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:02.480 you'll never make as much money in whatever else you 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:04.240 do the rest of your life as you're making right now. 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:06.800 And I said, Okay, then I guess I won't make 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:09.719 as much money. Um and uh. And by the way, 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:12.640 I don't know what your starting salary was, but let's 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:15.400 presume you're making around two hundred thou dollars. I bet 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:18.280 you have. I've done a little bit better than that. 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:21.319 Oh dude. I mean, I've been wanting for years to 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:25.960 send my tax returns to this guy. Um but it's uh. 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:28.760 So I quit there. I was out of work for 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:31.480 maybe three months. I've been ghost writing for some people. UM, 0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:33.160 but I was out of work for a little while. 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:34.680 I had a little bit of savings for my books, 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:37.079 um and uh. And then I latched on as the 0:12:37.240 --> 0:12:39.319 in house attorney at Talk Radio Network, which was a 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:41.640 syndicator for Laura Ingram and Michael Savage at the time. 0:12:42.080 --> 0:12:44.000 UM and I worked there, I was doing law. But 0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:46.480 the deal was I got paid literally a third of 0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:50.000 what I've been making, um, which was significantly less than 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:53.679 six figures um and um. My deal was, I will 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:55.800 do law for half the day, and for half the 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:57.760 day I wanted to learn the production side of the business. 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:00.120 So I'd sit there and outcut audio. I literally get up, 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:02.480 but at five o'clock in the morning, I would highlight 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:05.040 pieces for the various hopes that they had their show 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:07.720 prep ready, and I would cut the pieces of audio 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:10.000 that I thought relevant for the day. UM. And so 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:12.360 I was, you know, doing half time like remow level 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:16.920 production and halftime UH and halftime law. And after three years, 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:19.720 I was executive as president of the company. Uh and UM. 0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:21.960 I looked at the h I sort of looked at 0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:23.160 the direction of the company and I was like, I 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:25.360 think I'm down here. Uh. And I quit and um 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:27.520 and then moved on to the succession and other job. 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:29.719 And I started working at Andrew bright Bart's outlet, and 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:34.160 then I started, uh, what's I called truth or bold uh? 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:35.880 And then after that went to phone I started Daily 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:38.760 Wire Daily Wires, where obviously everything has happened over over 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:40.560 there right now, all right, So I want to circle 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:42.079 back around here for a second, because one of the 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:44.720 things we talked about on Winsdo Losses is being willing 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:48.000 to take risk and to uh and to latch onto 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:51.480 opportunity even if other people think you're crazy. You can 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:54.600 imagine because we have somewhat similar backgrounds. I stopped practicing 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:58.319 law after a couple of years. You're making good money, uh, 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:00.360 and a lot of people look at you like you 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:02.720 are crazy. That partner who told you you'd never make 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:06.079 the salary that you were making then is emblematic of it. 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:10.559 But I'm curious you mentioned your wife. How how important 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:13.599 was it for her to support your decision? Do you 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:17.480 remember other people who also said, hey, I believe in 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:22.160 you've been even if you're taking a non traditional career path. Yes, 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:23.840 my wife was super supportive. She was the one who 0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:25.440 actually told me to quit. So I would kind of 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:27.160 like implying that I wanted to quit. Should listen, if 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:29.680 you're this miserabation, just quit Like you got a Harvard 0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:31.560 law degree, You're smart guy, got a lot of contacts. 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:33.480 You'll get another job. Don't worry about it. Um. And 0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:36.840 so I quit a month before we were married, having 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:38.960 just taken on a mortgage and with you know, a 0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:41.440 little savings but not much. And she didn't like that. 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:42.720 In my whole career, like, if you got to make 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:44.400 the move, make a move. So I've been, you know, 0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:46.560 I've been very risk seeking. My entire career. Um My, 0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:49.200 I also figured, listen, I'm young, I can afford the risk. 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:52.000 We didn't have kids at that point. Um but I 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:53.840 always figured that if you bank on your own talent 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:55.640 and it's a it's an area where you actually know 0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:58.520 what you're doing, then you'll do pretty well. My parents 0:14:58.600 --> 0:15:00.680 have always been incredibly supportive. This ares me being risk 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:02.880 taking as well. So I think I can come from 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:05.200 tons of money. But you know, my parents are probably 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:08.120 probably upper middle class. I think it's fair to say 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:09.960 when I was growing up we were kind of lower 0:15:10.000 --> 0:15:11.480 middle class middle class. Like I grew up in a 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:14.440 two bedroom house in Burbank with three sisters. All of 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:16.920 us shared one room in one bathroom. But by the 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:18.480 time I was by the time I was in college, 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:21.000 were probably somewhere between middle class and upper middle class. 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:22.720 So it wasn't like I was coming from a place 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:25.080 where things went wildly wrong. You know, I was going 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:27.480 to be thrown into massive amounts of debt, So I 0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:31.280 was lucky that way for sure. Also, I would say this, 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:36.200 though I'm some middle class as well, the dollars don't 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:39.160 impress you as much. Like the first job that I 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:41.560 ever had, I made more money as a lawyer my 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:46.080 first year than my parents had ever made, right, and 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:49.160 so it was like, oh wow, like I when you 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:52.440 haven't ever gotten used to having extreme amounts of money. 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:54.240 We talked about this recently, We do on the show 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:57.400 sometimes about the idea of golden handcuffs, and a lot 0:15:57.440 --> 0:16:00.480 of young lawyers find themselves in golden hand cuffs because 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:03.320 you're making more than maybe your parents ever made at 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:06.400 the age of six years old, whatever it is. But 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:09.280 at the same time, you're recognizing that you're not necessarily 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:12.640 able to embrace your full talents. Yeah, that's right, I 0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:14.720 mean that's really what it was. It was. It was 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:16.480 early on. The only thing I really had to pay 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:18.160 for is I had paid for a car, but I 0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:21.840 just basically bought it. I used must say GP convertible 0:16:21.840 --> 0:16:24.600 two dousand and six baby boom. It was. It was, 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:27.320 it was, it was. It was my car until until 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:29.120 I got married, at which point it turned into Hundah court. 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:32.640 It's all of our cars to uh. And but um, yeah, 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:35.800 that's right. I mean I never I had a basic 0:16:35.880 --> 0:16:38.080 clossy about money making, which is never spend a dollar 0:16:38.200 --> 0:16:40.240 being on top uh, And so I never I never 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:42.160 gotten to bed I was. I was always very careful 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:44.880 about a dollar. And and but I will say that 0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:47.120 when I said to my parents, my mom particularly that 0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:48.920 I wanted to quit the law firm, she was a 0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:51.360 little bit perturbed because not not like angry or anything, 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:53.000 but like, are you sure about that? Because she'd been 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:55.200 spending her entire career, you know, to get to the 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:56.840 point where I was making that money. First year was 0:16:57.080 --> 0:16:59.320 coming out of coming out of law school, and um, 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:01.760 you know, obviously ended up being the right decision. But 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:04.000 it wasn't like she took like a hard and fast, 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:06.960 this is the wrong move thing. My mom tends to 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:09.480 be a much more risk averse person than I am. Yeah, okay, 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:12.200 so let's talk about risk. You end up with the 0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:14.680 Daily Wire, and I believe you guys are five years 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:20.920 and wildly successful website. UM somewhat similarly, we started out 0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:23.639 kick and I had bounced around other places, whether it 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:26.760 was dead Spin before they had gone full on Looney Left. 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:30.760 I've been to FanHouse, I had been writing at CBS Sports. 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:34.119 I felt like I understood the business model better than 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:37.359 most who were in my position. What about you? What 0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:39.720