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Speaker 1: This is Wins and Losses with Clay Trevis. Clay talks

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Speaker 1: with the most entertaining people in sports, entertainment and business.

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Speaker 1: Now here's Clay Trevis. Welcome in to out kick the

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Speaker 1: coverage the Winds and Losses podcast, where we can have

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Speaker 1: some long form conversations with a variety of different figures

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Speaker 1: that I find to be interesting in the world of sports, business, politics, media,

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Speaker 1: you name it. We've had a lot of awesome ones.

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Speaker 1: I encourage you to go back and listen to them.

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Speaker 1: And this week's guest is Ben Shapiro at Ben Shapiro

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Speaker 1: on Twitter. He's got a new book coming out which

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Speaker 1: I'm about halfway through, How to Destroy America in Three

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Speaker 1: Easy Steps. I also read his most recent book, I Believe,

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Speaker 1: which was which One the Right Side of History, How

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Speaker 1: Reason and moral purpose made the West Great? Super interesting

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Speaker 1: and entertaining books. Ben obviously has a wildly successful show

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Speaker 1: and podcast as a part of the Daily Wire team. Ben,

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Speaker 1: thanks for the time. I imagine releasing a book and

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Speaker 1: this day and age is is a little bit wacky,

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Speaker 1: even though you've released several before. Uh, this is a

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Speaker 1: different kind of vibe, right, I was definitely weird. Um

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Speaker 1: and I will admit that when I first wrote the book,

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Speaker 1: I thought I'd be relevant prior to the election, and

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Speaker 1: then COVID hit and I thought this is gonna do

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Speaker 1: wildly irrelevant before the election, and then the entire world

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Speaker 1: went up in flames. And it turns out its relevant again.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes I just sent the news cycle properly. All Right,

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Speaker 1: I want to dive into sports with you, because I've

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Speaker 1: been on your show before talking about sports, and I

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Speaker 1: know you're a pretty big sports fan, and we talked

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Speaker 1: as a jumping off point to a lot of different

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Speaker 1: people with sports as a sort of the connective tissue

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Speaker 1: or fabric. So let's start here. You grew up a

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Speaker 1: fan of which teams in which part of the country

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Speaker 1: when you were a kid. So I grew up in

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Speaker 1: l a and I'm a Chicago White tox fan primarily.

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Speaker 1: And then in terms of secondary sports for me, um

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Speaker 1: Boston Celtics fan and in Chicago Bears fans. I picked

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Speaker 1: up all my dad's allegiances. It's really the short story there.

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Speaker 1: My dad's from Chicago. When he was growing up, there

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Speaker 1: really wasn't a Chicago basketball team. He went to college

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Speaker 1: in Boston. Uh and because he did that he'd became

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Speaker 1: a Celtics fan. So I was. I grew up with

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Speaker 1: Celtics fan in l A, which went well for me

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Speaker 1: during my childhood. It was really great. So how big

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Speaker 1: of a sports fan were you? I mean, obviously you

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Speaker 1: went on to law school like I did, and uh,

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Speaker 1: and many people go on to more serious things in life.

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Speaker 1: Sports is kind of always the toy chest of life.

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Speaker 1: But when you were a kid growing up, were you a, Hey,

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Speaker 1: in the morning, I'm going to put on Sports Center,

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Speaker 1: see who won the night before, watch the highlights while

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Speaker 1: breakfast before I go to school. How committed would you

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Speaker 1: say you were to the teams you grew up rooting for?

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I was. I was. You know, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: run out to the I'm gonna run out of the curve,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna grab the box scores, I'm gonna come back

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Speaker 1: and I wake up at six am to watch the

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Speaker 1: early Sports Center. So yeah, I mean I was. I

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Speaker 1: was a sports nut, uh, in particularly baseball. My dad

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Speaker 1: and I actually co wrote a book about the about

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Speaker 1: the Chicago I talked two thousand and five World Serious season.

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Speaker 1: So a huge, huge sports fan. I mean, yesterday I

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Speaker 1: was watching and I'm so desperate for content. At this point,

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Speaker 1: I was watching the pre season Socks and Cubs game

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Speaker 1: in an empty stadium, watching backup relievers get raked. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean I remained a very large I made a

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Speaker 1: very large sports tin. Did you play growing up? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but I'm I'm a five nine jew now, so I

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Speaker 1: was never I'm a good contact hiner, So I was

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Speaker 1: I was gonna ask. I think it feels like every kid,

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Speaker 1: and basically everybody who's listening to us, with a few

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Speaker 1: exceptions who actually ended up being professional athletes. But you

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Speaker 1: have this sort of harsh realization for all kids at

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Speaker 1: some age, and for some of us it comes a

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Speaker 1: lot younger than others. For a lot of them, you know,

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Speaker 1: it comes in high school, whenever it might be. Do

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Speaker 1: you remember the age you were when you suddenly realized, hey,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, I'm not going to end up being

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Speaker 1: a major league baseball player. Yeah, I was thinking it

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Speaker 1: was probably thirteen, and it was pretty devastating. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I played in Little league and I was I was

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Speaker 1: pretty good. I mean I played second bags and I

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Speaker 1: was I could switch hit, and I was able to

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Speaker 1: go to the cage even hit an eight miles an hour,

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Speaker 1: but it wasn't like I had any sort of power,

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Speaker 1: and my arm wasn't strong enough for me to make

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Speaker 1: the third base throw, you know, really on the line.

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Speaker 1: And so at that point I was like, Okay, you know,

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Speaker 1: this one's pretty much done, so I'm gonna go to

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Speaker 1: the traditional Jewish pastimes of violin and laying. So that's

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Speaker 1: that's where it was. I've been a violent since I

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Speaker 1: was five. Anyway, it was okay, I can let these

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Speaker 1: groundballs wrap up my hands, or I can continue to

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Speaker 1: play violent like a good Jewish kid. When did when

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Speaker 1: did you? Where did you go to college? I went

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Speaker 1: for college, and then I went to Harvard to law school. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so okay, so when you were at U c l

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Speaker 1: A for college. So I went back recently and found

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Speaker 1: the very first thing that I had ever had published

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Speaker 1: under my name. Uh and I didn't find it. Actually

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Speaker 1: one of my listeners did, but I told the story.

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Speaker 1: I was eighteen years old. I was a freshman in

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Speaker 1: college at George Washington UM, and there was a front

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Speaker 1: page article because there was a protest over an executive

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Speaker 1: I guess it was body vice president or something of

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Speaker 1: the school who would use the phrase rule of thumb.

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Speaker 1: And somebody was offended about the use of the phrase

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Speaker 1: rule of thumb, and so I wrote in talking about

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Speaker 1: how ridiculous it was. And I went back and I

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Speaker 1: read that letter to the editor to the student newspaper,

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Speaker 1: and it was kind of amazing to see at you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm forty one now, but twenty plus years ago I

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Speaker 1: was fighting the same battles that I feel like i'm

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Speaker 1: fighting now for people out there who are like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you've changed. Literally, other than maybe using a few bigger

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Speaker 1: words when I was eighteen because I was trying to

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Speaker 1: show off my vocabulary, I really am not very much

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Speaker 1: different in the way that I would think about the

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Speaker 1: First Amendment and many other different issues than I would

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Speaker 1: have when I was eighteen. That's not to say that

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Speaker 1: I have perfect, you know, opinions or anything else. It's

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Speaker 1: just there's a consistency there for you. When you went

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Speaker 1: away to college at eighteen, had you developed your own

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Speaker 1: political philosophy at that point or was it still evolving?

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Speaker 1: I mean I think it was. It was still evolving

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Speaker 1: a little bit. It was fairly well developed. I mean

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Speaker 1: I went to college, not sixteen, So I started UCL.

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Speaker 1: I went out of sixteen, and I was living at

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Speaker 1: home and my first piece that I wrote was about

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Speaker 1: Israel because I had walked on campus and the first

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Speaker 1: thing I saw was a piece in the student newspaper

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Speaker 1: that compared to drill untime Minister Auriol Rod with Adolf

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Speaker 1: by Ahmen Nazi uh. And I thought, well, this doesn't

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Speaker 1: sound right. So I started walking into the Daily brewin

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Speaker 1: offices and I wrote a counterpiece. Uh. And then a

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Speaker 1: few weeks later I was walking through and I was

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Speaker 1: the only person who's relatively conservative they never heard of.

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Speaker 1: So as I was walking through the office, they were like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we've got this piece that somebody's writing about how sanctions

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Speaker 1: on towns and stander bad. You want to write the

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Speaker 1: counterpoint and to turn into sort of a point counterpoint thing.

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Speaker 1: And then I turned it into a normal column for

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Speaker 1: the U c l I paper. Um, but yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean my my politics was I would say, you know,

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Speaker 1: I was only sixteen, so it was somewhat well developed.

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Speaker 1: I got more well developed as time went on. But

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Speaker 1: I had a syndicated column when I was seventeen, and

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Speaker 1: I had my first published at twenty, So I would

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Speaker 1: say that I was more of a dick when I

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Speaker 1: was like seventeen. But I'm not sure who wasn't when

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Speaker 1: they were seventeen. So what was the reaction when you're

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Speaker 1: the sixteen year old kid writing in the Daily Bruin newspaper.

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Speaker 1: I mean that had to be uh, pretty energy. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I would imagine pretty impressive to your parents, but also

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Speaker 1: to you. It had to be pretty cool to be

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Speaker 1: able to start to influence perceptions even if it's on

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Speaker 1: a local student newspaper at that time. Yeah, it's pretty neat.

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Speaker 1: I mean I I I really enjoyed it. It was

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Speaker 1: a lot of fun. It became one of the most

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Speaker 1: widely read columns on the paper because it's the only

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Speaker 1: thing that wasn't sort of repeating party line. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: then when I was seventeen, I turned to my dad

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Speaker 1: and I've been writing for the Daily Run for maybe

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Speaker 1: a year and a half, and uh, and I said,

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Speaker 1: do you think that my stuff is good enough to

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Speaker 1: be published in like a normal paper? And he had

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Speaker 1: been reading I think it's Mona Charon who was syndicated

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Speaker 1: by Creator Syndicate, And he said, let me let me

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Speaker 1: see if they take submissions. So I just submitted my

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Speaker 1: stuff cold to creator syndicate, and they came back three

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Speaker 1: weeks later and offered me a weekly column. Uh, and

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Speaker 1: they didn't know hold I was. They knew I was young,

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Speaker 1: and they didn't know I seventeen. So my parents actually

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Speaker 1: had to sign the contract team to sign a contract

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Speaker 1: in California. So I actually started writing when I was

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Speaker 1: a team for for the for the syndicate, and then

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Speaker 1: that meant that it was going out to ten twelve papers.

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Speaker 1: Now it's I've been writing every weeks since I was

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Speaker 1: eighteen for them, So that means it's now been eighteen years.

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Speaker 1: And that means that I've written, you know, hundreds and

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Speaker 1: hundreds and hundreds of columns. It is the column it's

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Speaker 1: it's still going, it's still printed and probably a hundred

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Speaker 1: papers across the country at this point. Did you ever

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Speaker 1: practice a law, Oh yeah, I did, So I went

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Speaker 1: to I went to law school and then I and

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Speaker 1: then I write. Out of law school, you got these

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Speaker 1: big debts and and I thought, Okay, I figured I'll

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Speaker 1: go into real estate. Well, I'll learn real estate and

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Speaker 1: then make a bundle that way. So I joined up

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Speaker 1: with a firm called Goodwin Procter in Los Angeles, which

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Speaker 1: is a big Boston based firm. Um and Uh, I

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Speaker 1: will say I have the worst interview record of anyone

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Speaker 1: in the history of Howard Law School, I think. So

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Speaker 1: I interviewed at thirty two separate firms. I got one offer,

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Speaker 1: and what do yeah, what do you attribute that to? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean it was pretty obvious what it was about.

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Speaker 1: It was. It was about the fact that on my

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Speaker 1: resume I had the title of my books. So I

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Speaker 1: had my first book was called Brainwash, How liberal Bias

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Speaker 1: and doctrinates college Students or something like that. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: my second book was about social liberalism and how it

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Speaker 1: was bad. And so those were on and they're published

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Speaker 1: by mainstream houses, right, But I put those on my resume,

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Speaker 1: and so the interviews would go. I can get a

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Speaker 1: couple of great kind of law school interview stories. So uh.

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Speaker 1: And the way it works at Harvard is you don't

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Speaker 1: go to the firm the interview. They come to interview

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Speaker 1: you because you're a law student. So well, Vanderbilt. Vanderbilt

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Speaker 1: Law School does the same thing. They have like these

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Speaker 1: little bunker rooms. I don't know what it's like at Harvard,

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Speaker 1: but they have the on campus interviews and you know,

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Speaker 1: you walk in and you interview and everything else. So

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Speaker 1: so yeah, I went through the same sort of process. Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: So Harvard they do to the childhood towel and then

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Speaker 1: these really you know, beautifully apportioned rooms and you go

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Speaker 1: in and people interview you. So I remember one time

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Speaker 1: I was interviewing and gets some done and the partner

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Speaker 1: is sitting in the room before I even sit down.

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Speaker 1: The partner says, it's always been my like, it's pretty

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Speaker 1: obvious I'm religious, right ma I war Yama publicly and

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Speaker 1: all this before I even sit down. He says, it's

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Speaker 1: always been my contention that conservatives and religious people in

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Speaker 1: general have a Freudian fear of sex. Like before I

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Speaker 1: hit down for the interview, and I was like, okay,

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Speaker 1: well I'm clearly not getting that job. I just so

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Speaker 1: just a userrated and so I would say half my

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Speaker 1: interviews sort of weren't like that. And then I went

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Speaker 1: back to the Harvard Law School officite career services that like,

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Speaker 1: what's the deal, Like, I graduated, come loud from your university.

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Speaker 1: I have several published books at this point, like what's happening?

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Speaker 1: And they said, just take your book after your resume.

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Speaker 1: I took my books after asume. I got two interviews

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Speaker 1: next week. Oh that's amazing. So how so, So I

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Speaker 1: practiced full time for about two years, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: this is not for me. And I understand there's a lot. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, so how long did you actually last? Oh?

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Speaker 1: I lasted ten months. I was working. I was working

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Speaker 1: in real estate off for ten months. And then I

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Speaker 1: was so miserable. I just gotten engaged, I just bought

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Speaker 1: a condo, and right before we're set to get married,

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Speaker 1: I turned my wife and I said, I'm miserable. This

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Speaker 1: is the worst job in the entire world. I'd also

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Speaker 1: entered the real estate division and Echogan Proctor in September

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Speaker 1: of two thousand seven. There is no way. It's a

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Speaker 1: tough time been September two thousand seven. So I start

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Speaker 1: working there and I'm literally sitting in this gorgeous office

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Speaker 1: overlooking you know, Santa Monica, and you can see all

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Speaker 1: the way out to the ocean. And I'm sitting up

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Speaker 1: like ten hours a day doing nothing and then being

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Speaker 1: yelled at by the partner for not building hours. And

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Speaker 1: and like I remember, I came out of the bathroom

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Speaker 1: one time and the partners standing right there. It was like,

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Speaker 1: why aren't you building hours because you don't give ma

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Speaker 1: anny work? He's like, won't go rain make Like what

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Speaker 1: the first your associate, what are you even talking about?

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Speaker 1: I do doc review right, Like what do you? What

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Speaker 1: do you say? So, after ten months of his nonsense,

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Speaker 1: I quit, uh, and I will. This is actually pretty funny.

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Speaker 1: I sat down with a couple of the senior associates

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Speaker 1: and one of them was trying to convince me not

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Speaker 1: to quit, and the other one had played college baseball

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Speaker 1: I think a uv A and he and he's sitting

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Speaker 1: there trying to convince me not to quit, and I'm

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Speaker 1: giving all my reasons why I want to quit. A

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Speaker 1: miserable I hate this. I think it's a stupid job.

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Speaker 1: And about halfway through him trying to convince me not

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Speaker 1: to quit, he turns to the other senior associate and

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Speaker 1: he goes, maybe I should quit. The other senior associates

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Speaker 1: trying to explain to him by even though he's miserable,

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Speaker 1: he shouldn't quit. And then I went into the partner

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Speaker 1: told him that I wanted to quit, and the partner's

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Speaker 1: first response was, you understand that you'll never make his money. Well,

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Speaker 1: you'll never make as much money in whatever else you

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Speaker 1: do the rest of your life as you're making right now.

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Speaker 1: And I said, Okay, then I guess I won't make

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Speaker 1: as much money. Um and uh. And by the way,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what your starting salary was, but let's

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Speaker 1: presume you're making around two hundred thou dollars. I bet

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Speaker 1: you have. I've done a little bit better than that.

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Speaker 1: Oh dude. I mean, I've been wanting for years to

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Speaker 1: send my tax returns to this guy. Um but it's uh.

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Speaker 1: So I quit there. I was out of work for

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Speaker 1: maybe three months. I've been ghost writing for some people. UM,

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Speaker 1: but I was out of work for a little while.

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Speaker 1: I had a little bit of savings for my books,

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Speaker 1: um and uh. And then I latched on as the

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Speaker 1: in house attorney at Talk Radio Network, which was a

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Speaker 1: syndicator for Laura Ingram and Michael Savage at the time.

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Speaker 1: UM and I worked there, I was doing law. But

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Speaker 1: the deal was I got paid literally a third of

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Speaker 1: what I've been making, um, which was significantly less than

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Speaker 1: six figures um and um. My deal was, I will

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Speaker 1: do law for half the day, and for half the

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Speaker 1: day I wanted to learn the production side of the business.

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Speaker 1: So I'd sit there and outcut audio. I literally get up,

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Speaker 1: but at five o'clock in the morning, I would highlight

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Speaker 1: pieces for the various hopes that they had their show

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Speaker 1: prep ready, and I would cut the pieces of audio

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Speaker 1: that I thought relevant for the day. UM. And so

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Speaker 1: I was, you know, doing half time like remow level

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Speaker 1: production and halftime UH and halftime law. And after three years,

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Speaker 1: I was executive as president of the company. Uh and UM.

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Speaker 1: I looked at the h I sort of looked at

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Speaker 1: the direction of the company and I was like, I

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Speaker 1: think I'm down here. Uh. And I quit and um

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Speaker 1: and then moved on to the succession and other job.

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Speaker 1: And I started working at Andrew bright Bart's outlet, and

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Speaker 1: then I started, uh, what's I called truth or bold uh?

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Speaker 1: And then after that went to phone I started Daily

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Speaker 1: Wire Daily Wires, where obviously everything has happened over over

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Speaker 1: there right now, all right, So I want to circle

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Speaker 1: back around here for a second, because one of the

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Speaker 1: things we talked about on Winsdo Losses is being willing

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Speaker 1: to take risk and to uh and to latch onto

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Speaker 1: opportunity even if other people think you're crazy. You can

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Speaker 1: imagine because we have somewhat similar backgrounds. I stopped practicing

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Speaker 1: law after a couple of years. You're making good money, uh,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of people look at you like you

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Speaker 1: are crazy. That partner who told you you'd never make

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Speaker 1: the salary that you were making then is emblematic of it.

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Speaker 1: But I'm curious you mentioned your wife. How how important

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Speaker 1: was it for her to support your decision? Do you

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Speaker 1: remember other people who also said, hey, I believe in

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Speaker 1: you've been even if you're taking a non traditional career path. Yes,

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Speaker 1: my wife was super supportive. She was the one who

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Speaker 1: actually told me to quit. So I would kind of

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Speaker 1: like implying that I wanted to quit. Should listen, if

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Speaker 1: you're this miserabation, just quit Like you got a Harvard

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Speaker 1: law degree, You're smart guy, got a lot of contacts.

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Speaker 1: You'll get another job. Don't worry about it. Um. And

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Speaker 1: so I quit a month before we were married, having

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Speaker 1: just taken on a mortgage and with you know, a

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Speaker 1: little savings but not much. And she didn't like that.

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Speaker 1: In my whole career, like, if you got to make

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Speaker 1: the move, make a move. So I've been, you know,

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Speaker 1: I've been very risk seeking. My entire career. Um My,

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Speaker 1: I also figured, listen, I'm young, I can afford the risk.

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Speaker 1: We didn't have kids at that point. Um but I

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Speaker 1: always figured that if you bank on your own talent

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Speaker 1: and it's a it's an area where you actually know

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Speaker 1: what you're doing, then you'll do pretty well. My parents

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Speaker 1: have always been incredibly supportive. This ares me being risk

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Speaker 1: taking as well. So I think I can come from

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Speaker 1: tons of money. But you know, my parents are probably

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Speaker 1: probably upper middle class. I think it's fair to say

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Speaker 1: when I was growing up we were kind of lower

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Speaker 1: middle class middle class. Like I grew up in a

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Speaker 1: two bedroom house in Burbank with three sisters. All of

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Speaker 1: us shared one room in one bathroom. But by the

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Speaker 1: time I was by the time I was in college,

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Speaker 1: were probably somewhere between middle class and upper middle class.

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Speaker 1: So it wasn't like I was coming from a place

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Speaker 1: where things went wildly wrong. You know, I was going

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Speaker 1: to be thrown into massive amounts of debt, So I

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Speaker 1: was lucky that way for sure. Also, I would say this,

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Speaker 1: though I'm some middle class as well, the dollars don't

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Speaker 1: impress you as much. Like the first job that I

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Speaker 1: ever had, I made more money as a lawyer my

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Speaker 1: first year than my parents had ever made, right, and

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Speaker 1: so it was like, oh wow, like I when you

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Speaker 1: haven't ever gotten used to having extreme amounts of money.

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Speaker 1: We talked about this recently, We do on the show

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Speaker 1: sometimes about the idea of golden handcuffs, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of young lawyers find themselves in golden hand cuffs because

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Speaker 1: you're making more than maybe your parents ever made at

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Speaker 1: the age of six years old, whatever it is. But

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Speaker 1: at the same time, you're recognizing that you're not necessarily

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Speaker 1: able to embrace your full talents. Yeah, that's right, I

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Speaker 1: mean that's really what it was. It was. It was

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Speaker 1: early on. The only thing I really had to pay

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Speaker 1: for is I had paid for a car, but I

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Speaker 1: just basically bought it. I used must say GP convertible

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Speaker 1: two dousand and six baby boom. It was. It was,

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Speaker 1: it was, it was. It was my car until until

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Speaker 1: I got married, at which point it turned into Hundah court.

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Speaker 1: It's all of our cars to uh. And but um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's right. I mean I never I had a basic

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Speaker 1: clossy about money making, which is never spend a dollar

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Speaker 1: being on top uh, And so I never I never

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Speaker 1: gotten to bed I was. I was always very careful

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Speaker 1: about a dollar. And and but I will say that

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Speaker 1: when I said to my parents, my mom particularly that

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Speaker 1: I wanted to quit the law firm, she was a

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Speaker 1: little bit perturbed because not not like angry or anything,

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Speaker 1: but like, are you sure about that? Because she'd been

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Speaker 1: spending her entire career, you know, to get to the

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Speaker 1: point where I was making that money. First year was

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Speaker 1: coming out of coming out of law school, and um,

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Speaker 1: you know, obviously ended up being the right decision. But

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Speaker 1: it wasn't like she took like a hard and fast,

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Speaker 1: this is the wrong move thing. My mom tends to

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Speaker 1: be a much more risk averse person than I am. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: so let's talk about risk. You end up with the

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Speaker 1: Daily Wire, and I believe you guys are five years

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Speaker 1: and wildly successful website. UM somewhat similarly, we started out

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Speaker 1: kick and I had bounced around other places, whether it

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Speaker 1: was dead Spin before they had gone full on Looney Left.

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Speaker 1: I've been to FanHouse, I had been writing at CBS Sports.

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Speaker 1: I felt like I understood the business model better than

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Speaker 1: most who were in my position. What about you? What

401
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Speaker 1: did you learn at the other places you wrote at?

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Speaker 1: And worked for before you ended up at Daily Wire

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Speaker 1: and how important was that to you and being able

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Speaker 1: to build the success of your current company. So there

405
00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:49,920
Speaker 1: are a few sort of specific skills that that learned.

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Speaker 1: So one was, um, you know, I'd always written a

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Speaker 1: lot of story selection with a huge one, so when

408
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Speaker 1: I was an editor of Right Part, I kind of

409
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Speaker 1: learned story selection. After about a year and a half,

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Speaker 1: I really wos in the editorial chain anymore, but I

411
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Speaker 1: had learned to write really good headlines since that obviously

412
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Speaker 1: kim in very handy when I was when I was

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Speaker 1: writing my own website. UM, I think that, you know,

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Speaker 1: I learned also that you don't want to you don't

415
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Speaker 1: want to staff me on your capacity to support, so

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Speaker 1: you really want to grow slowly, you know, you want

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Speaker 1: to grow to your grow to your audience. Um. And

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Speaker 1: that means I think a big mistake that a lot

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Speaker 1: of people make is when they do take a risk,

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Speaker 1: they take a huge risk. So, yeah, I'm gonna start

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Speaker 1: a business. I'm gonna hire twenty five people. We're gonna

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Speaker 1: go full bore, We're gonna blow the entire chunk of

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Speaker 1: change right at the gate. And that was something that

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Speaker 1: I really learned not to do very early, which was, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're we're gonna we'll hire a couple writers.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna try out everybody. Everybody's got to spend a

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Speaker 1: week writing for us. We'll pay them for their time,

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Speaker 1: but we're gonna see if they actually can run through

429
00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:48,399
Speaker 1: the paces. Uh and uh. And that was apology I

430
00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:49,920
Speaker 1: started when on to Bright part but then we carried

431
00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,479
Speaker 1: on when I was when I moved beyond Bright part Um.

432
00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:55,359
Speaker 1: The sort of real key actually was something that occurred

433
00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,040
Speaker 1: to both me and my business partner, Jeremy Boring. Uh.

434
00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:00,440
Speaker 1: And that was marketing. Uh. And that is something that

435
00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:02,800
Speaker 1: I think we mostly learned when we were running Truth

436
00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:05,280
Speaker 1: of Bolts for for David Horror's Freedom Center, which was

437
00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:07,639
Speaker 1: sort of the antimedia matters and the right uh. And

438
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:10,320
Speaker 1: what we what we really learned is that we had

439
00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:13,439
Speaker 1: become largely dependent for our traffic on other websites linking us.

440
00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:15,720
Speaker 1: And so at one point I turned to Jeremy and

441
00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,119
Speaker 1: I said, what has probably since become our our company's

442
00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:20,800
Speaker 1: business model, which is luck is not a business model. Yeah,

443
00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,239
Speaker 1: you know, you can't rely on other people to help

444
00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:24,760
Speaker 1: you out. You really have to have a plan for

445
00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,080
Speaker 1: how you are going to maximize your own business and

446
00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,639
Speaker 1: what that really means. You have to focus to an

447
00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:33,520
Speaker 1: extraordinary extent on marketing because most people tend to think

448
00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,280
Speaker 1: the content is king well, content is kind of thing

449
00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:38,800
Speaker 1: and kind of not. So you can write a great

450
00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:40,480
Speaker 1: book and if nobody knows it out there, it will

451
00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:42,119
Speaker 1: sell two copies. And you can write a pile of

452
00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:43,720
Speaker 1: horse crap and if you put it between two covers

453
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:45,320
Speaker 1: and you have a lot of people covering it, it

454
00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:47,040
Speaker 1: will sell in a lot of copies. Which is how

455
00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:49,800
Speaker 1: you end up with, you know, Charles Barkley being questioned

456
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:54,320
Speaker 1: about a book, Yeah, misquoted in his own autobiography. I

457
00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:56,080
Speaker 1: want to unpack a little bit of that because it's

458
00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:59,080
Speaker 1: so fascinating. Be sure to catch live editions about Kick

459
00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,240
Speaker 1: the Coverage with a Travis week days at six am Eastern,

460
00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:05,479
Speaker 1: three am Pacific. You're listening to Wins and Losses. I'm

461
00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:08,080
Speaker 1: Clay Travis. He's been Shapiro. One of the things that

462
00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,280
Speaker 1: I learned was, uh, there's a great quote that's out

463
00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:13,920
Speaker 1: there from I believe it's Michael Bay and they said, like,

464
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,159
Speaker 1: how do you know what the needle is? How do

465
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:19,119
Speaker 1: you move the needle, and he said, which one of

466
00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,200
Speaker 1: the cockiest quotes of all time. I am the needle.

467
00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:24,960
Speaker 1: And there's obviously two ways to look at that. Either

468
00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:28,399
Speaker 1: you can make people you know, adjust to whatever you

469
00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:32,200
Speaker 1: believe is important, or you have such a finely tuned

470
00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:35,280
Speaker 1: calibration for what people are going to respond to that

471
00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,280
Speaker 1: you know how to address their issues. And so I

472
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:40,560
Speaker 1: always like to say I'm a data guy. I like

473
00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,440
Speaker 1: to go look at what people actually click on as

474
00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:45,720
Speaker 1: opposed to what they claim that they are going to

475
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,360
Speaker 1: click on. Uh. And I bet you are as well,

476
00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,560
Speaker 1: just based on the answer you gave. What surprised you

477
00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:55,200
Speaker 1: that worked early on in your writing career on the internet,

478
00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:57,480
Speaker 1: that if you didn't actually look at the numbers or

479
00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:01,200
Speaker 1: the click through rates or the data might have been counterintuitive.

480
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,000
Speaker 1: So I think that everybody focuses on the writing and

481
00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,840
Speaker 1: not the headlines. It is a huge So it's it's

482
00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:09,880
Speaker 1: so you know, you like, I would write a really

483
00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:11,640
Speaker 1: great piece and if without a crappy headline, it gets

484
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,639
Speaker 1: no traffic. I remember I was doing a panel at

485
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:16,560
Speaker 1: one of these big tech events and I was sitting

486
00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:18,280
Speaker 1: on a panel with one of the head Vaccios, which

487
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:20,600
Speaker 1: is of course, another big news website, and they were

488
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:22,600
Speaker 1: complaining that they didn't get the kind of social media

489
00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:24,920
Speaker 1: traffic to me, because we get an enormous social media

490
00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,800
Speaker 1: kind of response to our stuff. And they were I

491
00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:29,120
Speaker 1: was saying, well, can you read me like the last

492
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:31,439
Speaker 1: three headlines in person? You know, I looked up their

493
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:33,840
Speaker 1: headlines that said, well, you need to write better headlines,

494
00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:37,760
Speaker 1: like not like the New York Times doesn't have great

495
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:41,160
Speaker 1: web traffic organically because their headlines stuck. All their headlines

496
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,719
Speaker 1: are you know, as the world turns blacks and Hispanics

497
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:45,359
Speaker 1: at hardest, It's like, well, how are you just to

498
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:47,119
Speaker 1: lead with the news? How about that? Like I just

499
00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:48,639
Speaker 1: want to make a hardcore claim and make the hardcore

500
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:50,880
Speaker 1: claim right up front, Like there, I'm not even making

501
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:52,479
Speaker 1: a claim about their contents I'm just saying the way

502
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:54,840
Speaker 1: they phrase their contents is oblique. I don't do that.

503
00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,480
Speaker 1: People want to wrack. People want to hear what we

504
00:21:57,600 --> 00:21:59,600
Speaker 1: call the world in Hebrews. The topless they want to

505
00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:01,879
Speaker 1: hear just the bottom line. They don't want to they

506
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 1: don't want to be jerked around. And so the more

507
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,840
Speaker 1: outfront yard with your titles, the better it's gonna do. Uh.

508
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,200
Speaker 1: The other thing is that people don't I mean, it's

509
00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:11,400
Speaker 1: a sad group of the world that people don't actually

510
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:13,560
Speaker 1: want good news. So everybody will tell you they want

511
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:15,480
Speaker 1: good news, but nobody wants good news. So if you

512
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:17,639
Speaker 1: if you cover the I mean, it's it's a truism

513
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:19,440
Speaker 1: that everybody in the media knows, but they won't tell

514
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,520
Speaker 1: anybody in the audience. So they also be like, well,

515
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:23,200
Speaker 1: you know, I wish that the news were just filled

516
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:25,280
Speaker 1: with more stories about good things that are happening. Full

517
00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 1: crap you want, you don't click on it, That doesn't

518
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:28,920
Speaker 1: it doesn't activate your making. Last let's just be real

519
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:30,879
Speaker 1: about this. You don't want that stuff, but what you

520
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:32,560
Speaker 1: actually want is the stuff to freak you out right,

521
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 1: which is why on COVID there's very little news about,

522
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:37,040
Speaker 1: you know, the fact that that rate is gone down,

523
00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:39,520
Speaker 1: and the fact that hospitals are treating this thing significantly

524
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 1: better than they were before, the fact that the caseload

525
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:43,600
Speaker 1: is rising but the hospitals are not overwhelmed. Like, all

526
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:45,800
Speaker 1: of that is more accurate than what you're generally seeing

527
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:47,240
Speaker 1: as the narrative. But that's not what you want to

528
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:48,879
Speaker 1: click on. What you want to click on is hospital

529
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:50,520
Speaker 1: is about to be overwhelmed. Stay in your home, we're

530
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:52,680
Speaker 1: all gonna die because that activates certain core parts of

531
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,479
Speaker 1: your brain. So if you want traffic, you know, then

532
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:57,760
Speaker 1: then that's where you go. Now, obviously you've gotta be

533
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,399
Speaker 1: honest about how you cover stuff. Um, but it is.

534
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 1: It is just a fact of human nature, and people

535
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,680
Speaker 1: who are I think unscrupulous can certainly play on that.

536
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:07,960
Speaker 1: It's one of the reasons why for years and years

537
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,119
Speaker 1: and years, the going you know, the going polling has

538
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,760
Speaker 1: shown that people were worried about vast increases in crime,

539
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:14,960
Speaker 1: despite the fact that we're in the middle of a

540
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:16,879
Speaker 1: thirty year crime drop in the United Protectance of the

541
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 1: last couple of years. No, it's a true and and

542
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,359
Speaker 1: I've labeled all the coronavirus coverage fear porn because that

543
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 1: is oftentimes what motivated the analogy I use. You'll probably

544
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,359
Speaker 1: appreciate this is one day, although this is a little

545
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 1: bit different for our audience, but uh, one day, we

546
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:35,640
Speaker 1: had a cancer patient announcing an NFL draft pick. St. Jude,

547
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,959
Speaker 1: which does incredible work in Memphis and around the country. Uh,

548
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:40,879
Speaker 1: they had a cancer patient who was going to be

549
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:43,200
Speaker 1: announcing an NFL draft pick. They gave that story to

550
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:45,960
Speaker 1: me to write, and I put it out on Twitter

551
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 1: as an OutKick story, and I watched the traffic because

552
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 1: you can sit in front of your Google Analytics or

553
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:53,800
Speaker 1: whatever internal analytics you have and see people react to

554
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,360
Speaker 1: whatever is out there circulating. And you know, we saw

555
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 1: a little bit of a blip, but a lot more

556
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 1: people said, oh, this is awesome than actually came to

557
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,359
Speaker 1: read about it. That same day, Aaron Murray, who was

558
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,680
Speaker 1: then the quarterback of the Georgia Bulldogs, had a brand

559
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 1: new girlfriend and I was like, I put out you know,

560
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,920
Speaker 1: Aaron Murray's new girlfriend is super hot, and like the

561
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 1: website traffic almost shut down the servers right so literally,

562
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:20,800
Speaker 1: like a couple of hours apart, we have good looking

563
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,960
Speaker 1: girl of a girlfriend of a quarterback and we have

564
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,640
Speaker 1: you know, cancer patient making a pick. People would say

565
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,159
Speaker 1: they want the cancer patient story, but it's like you

566
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,480
Speaker 1: can peel back their brain and the good looking girl

567
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 1: like people like broke their self, you know, their screens

568
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 1: on their phones to immediately click through on it. And

569
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,680
Speaker 1: we just had another story like that recently because s

570
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:41,879
Speaker 1: I had a fifty six year old swimsuit model and

571
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 1: people are like, you know, I don't care about that,

572
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 1: and you know, meanwhile the servers are, you know, hot

573
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:48,920
Speaker 1: lava because people can't click on that enough. It was

574
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 1: our most read story last week and read as in

575
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 1: quotation marks. But let's go back to uh, let's go

576
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 1: back to sports for a minute, because you talked about

577
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,879
Speaker 1: being a big sports fan growing up. For me, I

578
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,639
Speaker 1: have talked with my aud it's about the Missouri race protest,

579
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,880
Speaker 1: which I believe happened back in if I'm not mistaken

580
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,920
Speaker 1: whatever that year was. Yeah, As for me, my red

581
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 1: pill moment as a member of the sports media, because

582
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 1: that was in my wheelhouse, Southeastern Conference college football, which

583
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 1: is what I made my my living on. And I

584
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 1: actually dove into that story and I saw the way

585
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,239
Speaker 1: that it was covered by the media, and I'm like, man,

586
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:30,439
Speaker 1: there is nothing that is actually here. And from that moment,

587
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:35,680
Speaker 1: I legitimately questioned everything in an aggressive way in the

588
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,119
Speaker 1: sports media in a way that I never had before.

589
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 1: Was there a story for you in sports? And to

590
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 1: the extent that I have evolved in any way in

591
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 1: the way that I write and talk about sports, For me,

592
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 1: that story was a transformative moment. I've always been skeptical.

593
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,879
Speaker 1: I'd always been, uh, you know, maybe more likely to

594
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,200
Speaker 1: adopt a devil's advocate perspective. Maybe that's the lawyer in me,

595
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,159
Speaker 1: whatever it is, but that for me was a was

596
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 1: a life sort of altering moment in the way that

597
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 1: I consumed news in the world of sports. Was there

598
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,680
Speaker 1: one for you in the world of sports where you said,

599
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 1: my god, sports has become as political and as unclear

600
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:16,920
Speaker 1: and as agenda driven as the rest of politics news. Yeah,

601
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 1: I mean I think that there's been hints of it

602
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: for a long time, so I'm My parents gave me

603
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 1: a Sports Illustrated subscription for my birthday when I five thirteen,

604
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 1: and for I would take fifteen years. I was a

605
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,880
Speaker 1: subscriber to Sports Illustrated, and I wasn't just a subscriber.

606
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:30,640
Speaker 1: I would like sit there on Friday nights to stab

607
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 1: it started, and I'd read this thing cover to cover

608
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:34,199
Speaker 1: like every single week. I didn't care if I liked

609
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: the columns and care if if I was interested in

610
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 1: the sport. I would literally sit there and just read

611
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:39,640
Speaker 1: the whole thing cover to cover, and it was kind

612
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,360
Speaker 1: of my my weekly break. Well. I remember, over time,

613
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 1: a Sports Illustrated started covering more and more politics, where

614
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 1: suddenly there was like a cover story on how global

615
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,639
Speaker 1: warming is going to affect baseball and how the Miami

616
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:51,680
Speaker 1: Marlins were gonna be playing from thirty ft underwater and

617
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:53,159
Speaker 1: this kind of stuff, and I remember thinking, Okay, I

618
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,920
Speaker 1: don't think that's true, but all right. They kind of

619
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 1: the kind of breaking point for me came when they

620
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:00,680
Speaker 1: featured Caitlin Jenner on the cover of the magazine and

621
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 1: they made a big deal out of this Caitlin, and

622
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 1: I just remember thinking to myself, Okay, Caitlyn Jenner is

623
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 1: an adult. He can I use people's biological pronouns, he can,

624
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:10,720
Speaker 1: he can do any laws to me. If if he

625
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 1: thinks that he's a woman, then that's fine. If he

626
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 1: wants to call himself Caitlin, and that's fine. I don't

627
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 1: really care. But what in the f does this have

628
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: to do with sports? Caitlin Bruce Cheddar has not been

629
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 1: relevant in the American sports team because before I was born, like,

630
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: why is this on the cover of a magazine? I

631
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 1: I do not understand why this is happening. And that's

632
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 1: what I realized that this had become just the thing.

633
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 1: The thing was that the only stories that mattered were

634
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,399
Speaker 1: sports stories that as a particular narrative and that have

635
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 1: been true for for that I remember this is true

636
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,719
Speaker 1: when um it was, um what what was the name

637
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 1: of John Amici wasn't I think with the the the

638
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: gay basketball player from the Orlando from the Atlanta Magica

639
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 1: was it was put on the cover of Sports Illustrator.

640
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 1: I remember thinking to myself, there's no one pretty, you know,

641
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:54,919
Speaker 1: famous gay people in society, Like I'm not sure why

642
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 1: this is like a huge story, um, and but it

643
00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 1: was really the Caitlin gener things. At least hn and

644
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 1: Mimi had been like an active player within the recent past. Um.

645
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 1: The the Canlon Gender thing was like, okay, now, because

646
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 1: now you're trying to promulgate a couple of things. One,

647
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 1: you're trying to suggest that if I believe that Bruce

648
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 1: Jenner is actually a man, or that Catlon Gender is

649
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 1: a biological man, that I'm a biggot. And too, you're

650
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 1: putting that on the cover of a sports magazine for

651
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: that who has not been relevant or a person who's

652
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: not been relevant in sports for literally four decades, like

653
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:22,399
Speaker 1: this is this is this clearly has nothing to do

654
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,159
Speaker 1: with anything and then it got to the point like

655
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:27,159
Speaker 1: that was when I had already been thinking of it,

656
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 1: but that's when I was like, you know what, I

657
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 1: don't need Sports illustrated in my life anymore. And I

658
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:31,719
Speaker 1: just canceled it because it was at least half politics.

659
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 1: At that point, I started looking at the magazine and

660
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 1: realizing half of the stuff I was reading with politics.

661
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 1: And then I remember watching ESPN. I was, as you say,

662
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 1: devoted to Sports Center like every day, and then at

663
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 1: the gym I put on I put on ESPN, and

664
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 1: every single story after the Missouri thing was the story

665
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 1: of America's evil racist, evil racist orientation for minorities. And

666
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 1: I thought, well, hold on a second, isn't ESPN like

667
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 1: a an entire channel dedicated to athletic prowess, which is

668
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 1: in many sports is heavily done in by minorities, but

669
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 1: apparently America's evil and and it got to the point

670
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 1: where it's like, Okay, I just don't want to watch

671
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 1: this anymore. The only thing that I want to watch

672
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: is the actual game. And you can see how in

673
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: sports the entire narrative moved from the fringes into the

674
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: actual sport, and that's that's kind of the story of

675
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 1: the last five years, and went from Okay, you know,

676
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 1: we have character studies of various players in sports illustrated

677
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: for years. This person might not be that relevant, but

678
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 1: but it's kind of an interesting character study. And even

679
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: there you're like, okay, fine, then it got and now

680
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 1: it's to the point where we're going to actually put

681
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 1: the politics on the field. Right now, that was that's

682
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 1: what's happened over the last three or four years. It

683
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 1: was the politics of the players is interesting, but separate

684
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 1: from what happens on the field. So you can watch

685
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 1: a broadcast and go the entire broadcast, so that hearing

686
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 1: the politics. And now it's you know, we're gonna put

687
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 1: it on the sideline. And then right even a few

688
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 1: years ago, it's this Kaepernick. It was on the sideline,

689
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 1: and then it moved to okay, it's gonna be during

690
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 1: and it's gonna move to before the game with the

691
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 1: hand up, don't shot stout at the same it's rams

692
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 1: same year, and then it was going to be okay,

693
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 1: now that's gonna be in the game itself. Now when

694
00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 1: I turn on the NBA, I have to watch Black

695
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 1: Lives Matter throw up an alley to defend the police,

696
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 1: and I'm out man like I I can't do that.

697
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: Like I'm happy to watch the basketball, but if you're

698
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: going to spoon feed me a particular brand of politics,

699
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 1: well I do it. Like I just wonder, if you're

700
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 1: on the left and I'm running a sports league, do

701
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: you really want to see pro life throw up, throw

702
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 1: up an alley you to lower my taxes? That's something

703
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 1: that you're up for? Are you up for me? Are

704
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: you up for watching lead where quarterback biological women exist,

705
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 1: goes back to throw a hail Mary to strengthen our

706
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 1: military funding? Like, what are we talking about here? This

707
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 1: has nothing to do with anything. It is amazing to

708
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: think about and and and really, in the last ten

709
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 1: days or so, I think people have started to recognize

710
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 1: the inherent hypocrisy here. And I thought the Adrian Wodanarowski

711
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 1: response of just f you immediately sent to Missouri Senator

712
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 1: Josh Holly when he asked about the inherent contradictions in

713
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 1: the NBA being willing to take billions of dollars from

714
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 1: a Chinese communist government, which, if you truly want to

715
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: analogize a global power to Nazi era, which is always

716
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: a freighted difficult historical conversation to have, But the Chinese

717
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 1: would be it, right. I mean, if you think about

718
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 1: what they are doing, it most clearly, I would argue

719
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 1: of any country in the world right now, curious if

720
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 1: you would agree analogizes to Nazi Germany. Yet NBA is

721
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: willing to take billions of dollars from communist China, which

722
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 1: has got concentration camps and is taking over land and

723
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 1: is taking away rights, literally pulling books out of libraries,

724
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 1: and yet they're gonna lecture us about American politics. Yeah,

725
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: it's pretty amazing. I mean again, it's it's pretty amazing

726
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: to hear from the NBA, which is heavily blackly because

727
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 1: so many towns of players are black, saying that Americans

728
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: are deeply endemically racist, and we're all tuning in to

729
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: watch the NBA specifically because we just wanted the athletic contents, right.

730
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 1: There was an amazing exchange today between Senators Ted Cruz

731
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 1: and mar Cuban, the owner of the als Average, where

732
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 1: Cuban was saying something Nashew to Cruz and crews came

733
00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 1: back and he was like, you know, they're very brave

734
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 1: on a lot of these shoes. But I'm just wondering,

735
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 1: do you have the guts just tweet like free Hong

736
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 1: Kong or anything about what's going on in China right

737
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 1: now and immediately Cuban tweets back, while you know what

738
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 1: happens internally in different countries is in their own business

739
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: and also black lives matter, It's like, okay, so you're

740
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 1: just misdirected. Now. The reality is that you know, we

741
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 1: there's lots of tid about the NEA brutality in this country,

742
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 1: but the threat to Black Americans in this country there

743
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: is nowhere on the order of what's happening to the

744
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: Chinese weakers the hands of the Chinese government, but one

745
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 1: you're willing to say something on because it has cost

746
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: free to you, not only to cost free, because it

747
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 1: actually plays into a certain marketing perspective that you want

748
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 1: to have with regard to the NBA, and the other

749
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 1: one you literally will not even say that. I mean,

750
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 1: there's tape that has emerged of of the weakers being

751
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: loaded after having a headship onto trains to go to

752
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 1: concentration camps where they will be sterilized and mark Cuban islay. Oh,

753
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 1: it's an internal political issue. Okay, yeah, sure, I totally

754
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 1: believe your virtue signaling about the cruelties of America and

755
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 1: are brutal human rights violations. Fox Sports Radio has the

756
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 1: best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of

757
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 1: our shows at Fox Sports Radio dot com and within

758
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app search f s R to

759
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 1: listen live. We're talking to Ben Shapiro. The new book,

760
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 1: by the way, How to Destroy America and Three Easy

761
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 1: Steps is a good read. I'm working on it right now.

762
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: Encourage you to follow him on Twitter as well at

763
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: Ben Shapiro. Um you were, And by the way, this

764
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: is the Winds and Losses podcast. I'm Clay Travis and uh.

765
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 1: It also ties in with Jamal Hill. We're talking on

766
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 1: Monday afternoon. Yesterday afternoon evening, Jamal Hill tweeted out that

767
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 1: if you vote for Donald Trump, you are a racist.

768
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: Uh and you'll appreciate this. I had our crew at

769
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 1: out Kick reach out to ESPN because they now have

770
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 1: hired Jamal Hill to be a producer of a Colin

771
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 1: Kaepernick documentary, which is the very essence of propaganda. Right.

772
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 1: We know already what they are going to allow him

773
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 1: to say and what that story will be that will

774
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 1: be told. But they're literally giving millions of dollars to

775
00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 1: Kaepernick and Jamal Hill. And so we said, uh, you,

776
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 1: I hadham phrased it. I said, do you basically agree

777
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 1: that Jamal Hill's position of everyone who votes for Donald

778
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 1: Trump is racist? ESPN's response was no comment. So they're

779
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 1: not even willing to say there are some people in

780
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 1: America who might be voting for Donald Trump that are

781
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 1: not racist, I mean, including her mom, right you guys

782
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 1: also ye, which is absolutely speak active. Yeah, I mean,

783
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,359
Speaker 1: the first of all, I'm not sure why Jamal Hill

784
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 1: is suddenly an expert on American policing. But I just

785
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 1: I just think there's not a ton of crossover here

786
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 1: between like my understanding, which maybe maybe she's not. I

787
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 1: don't know what. My understanding is that she made her

788
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 1: kind of fame and fortune doing sports, not doing not

789
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,720
Speaker 1: doing the politics specifically. Now, listen, she's in pentical opinion.

790
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: I'm not one of these shut up and seeing kind

791
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:49,359
Speaker 1: of people like I think that you should be able

792
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 1: to speak on whatever you want to speak about. But

793
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:52,919
Speaker 1: I'm not sure why her opinion carries so much weight

794
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 1: on on these matters when she has provided little to

795
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 1: no statistical evidence in many of the contentions that she

796
00:34:58,200 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 1: is making in the teams that she's brought on TV

797
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 1: commuarly to castigate large crowds of people she doesn't know

798
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 1: is racist. I mean, she did the same thing a

799
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,399
Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago after the bubble wall. It's non news.

800
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: Or she suggested that everybody who watched NASCAR was a

801
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,880
Speaker 1: Confederate flag waving racist. I mean, it's just like this,

802
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:14,439
Speaker 1: this is her stick, and it's it's a pretty incredible stick.

803
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 1: By the way, what a great country this is, right,

804
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: I mean, it really is a phenomenal country where you

805
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: can be a quarterback who leaves your team to the

806
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: super Bowl and then the next season everybody figures the

807
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 1: figures the out that you can't make a secondary read

808
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 1: and you kneel and you can make millions of dollars

809
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 1: top of that, while declaring that the country cat you

810
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 1: in his racist like, that's an unbelievable scam. It's fan

811
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: freaking pastic. This is just like anyone can make a

812
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 1: fortune here no matter how, no matter what you do,

813
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,320
Speaker 1: but particularly if you just crap all over the system

814
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 1: that is paying tons of money There's no other country

815
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:45,720
Speaker 1: in the world that I can think of where somebody

816
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 1: could just say the country is fundamentally racist, it's an

817
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 1: awful place, and make more money doing that than they

818
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 1: would to actually be a pro athlete. I got a

819
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 1: couple of facts for you. I think you're going to

820
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,799
Speaker 1: enjoy and also want your opinion. A few weeks ago,

821
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 1: ESPN decided to give over their programming for the evening

822
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:06,399
Speaker 1: to Social Justice Warrior programming. It was like ESPN Woke

823
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 1: Center in the extreme. Okay, uh. It was the lowest

824
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:15,760
Speaker 1: rated prime time programming in twenty five years and probably longer.

825
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 1: Literally literally, the audience is telling ESPN, we don't want this,

826
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,400
Speaker 1: We do not have any interest in you guys deciding

827
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,840
Speaker 1: to be I think, as you initially coined, MS, ESPN,

828
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 1: this uh the worldwide leader in sports and left wing politics.

829
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 1: Why do you think in a market based economy, markets

830
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 1: responding as they are, is still leading ESPN down this

831
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: pathway of woke center destruction when all the evidence is

832
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 1: telling them, Hey, your fans, your audience don't want this. Well.

833
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 1: I actually did a bit of a statistical study on

834
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 1: this a few years ago to look at the percentage

835
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 1: of coverage that was being devoted by sports on ESPN,

836
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 1: and they heavy heavily disproportionately because on the NFL and

837
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 1: the NBA, much less on the n L the almost

838
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 1: nothing on the NHL um And what that says to

839
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 1: me is that ESPN is specifically catering to particular racial

840
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 1: demographics that they think are going to spend more money

841
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 1: with their advertisers. Which makes perfect sense, right on. If

842
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,320
Speaker 1: you're if you're ESPN and you get a lot of

843
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,359
Speaker 1: money from Nike for advertising, and people who are disproportionately

844
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 1: likely to buy Nike are young black males, and young

845
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,399
Speaker 1: black males want companies that cater to their particular brand

846
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 1: of politics, then it all sort of crosses over. Right,

847
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 1: There's a reason that Nike decided to hire Kaepernick, and

848
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 1: it's not because Nike suddenly decided to get wonks because

849
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:32,799
Speaker 1: they wanted to make more money. So capitalism always wins

850
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:34,279
Speaker 1: until it doesn't, right, I mean, this is sort of

851
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 1: the in the short term capitalism always win. ESPN can

852
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 1: afford a bad night of programming in order to signal

853
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 1: to their to their constituency that we are on your

854
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 1: side when it comes to politics and us your your

855
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 1: brand loyalty will be that much higher. But they are,

856
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 1: and they are betting that a huge percentage of the

857
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 1: population just won't turn out the ESPN, And I don't

858
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 1: think that's right. I think that there are a lot

859
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 1: of people who did this with the NFL, with annealing stuff.

860
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:56,879
Speaker 1: I did it with the ESPN. I used to watch

861
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,839
Speaker 1: ESPN regularly. I haven't watched ESPN in years. I think

862
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 1: Spin is also recognizing a simple truth, which is that

863
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:04,359
Speaker 1: so many people are cutting the cord at this point

864
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 1: that they have to double down on the audience as

865
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 1: they do have. Because if you are if you if

866
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 1: you're younger, chances are pretty good that you're just gonna

867
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 1: go online for your for your sports anyway, or you're

868
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 1: gonna buy, Like for me, I have an MLB TV

869
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 1: subscription because all I care about some baseball. So the

870
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 1: fact that, um, you know, the fact that ESPN decide

871
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:25,799
Speaker 1: the program instruction there there's natual market reasons that makes

872
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 1: the sense here. But I think that that's that's the

873
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 1: part of this that's so hilarious is all the woke

874
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 1: schools who are out there sharing ESPN, sharing Disney sharing,

875
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:35,719
Speaker 1: all of these major corporations who guts they hate because

876
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 1: suddenly they think that the corporations have turned woke, when

877
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 1: in reality, the corporations are just making a quick buck

878
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 1: off of them. Do you think that athletes understand where

879
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:45,799
Speaker 1: the money from their salaries come from? Because I keep

880
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:49,320
Speaker 1: circling back around to this being the essential major issue

881
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 1: out there, which is that the athletes themselves they don't

882
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 1: understand where the money is coming from anymore. You know,

883
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 1: they look at their social media feeds. They pull up Instagram,

884
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 1: they pull up Twitter, they see what it's likes. They're

885
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 1: busy playing sports otherwise, and it's as if they have

886
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:08,719
Speaker 1: forgotten who actually pays their salaries, which are the people

887
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:10,800
Speaker 1: who are willing to buy courtside seats in the NBA,

888
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 1: which by the way, are really really expensive. The people

889
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 1: who are buying luxury suites, A huge percentage of them

890
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 1: would not vote in the same way that the athlete would.

891
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 1: Is that just a fundamental disconnect in terms of not

892
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 1: understanding the business that they're in. I mean, I think

893
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 1: that's right. I think that the problem is that they

894
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 1: don't get directly paid by the sands. Right they got

895
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 1: directly the fans, then they would actually be then they

896
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:34,320
Speaker 1: would actually have to cater to the fan base, but

897
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 1: they're paid by the owners because the owners are the

898
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 1: ones to actually end up reaping the benefits. So they

899
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 1: look at the owners and they're like, oh, you owners

900
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 1: are shutting me down. You're stopping me from speaking my mind.

901
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 1: And it's all because you're an old white guy. And

902
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:46,840
Speaker 1: the old white guys like, wait a second, I hired you,

903
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 1: and I'm happy to have you on the team, but

904
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 1: you know, I can only pay you the money that's

905
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 1: coming in. And they look at the old white guy

906
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 1: who's worked a lot of money and they said, hey, yeah,

907
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 1: but you're worth billions of dollars and all you have

908
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 1: to do is dip into your Scooge McDuck piggy bank

909
00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:58,919
Speaker 1: and you can just so they swim around and every

910
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 1: night and pay me a little less from one and

911
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,239
Speaker 1: he won't do that because woke reasons. And listen, if

912
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 1: if if people were actually subjected to the market decisions

913
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:08,720
Speaker 1: they make the rest play they make very very different decisions.

914
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,759
Speaker 1: At my company, everybody sort of knows where the where

915
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 1: the money comes from, where it comes from our subscribers,

916
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:16,720
Speaker 1: it comes from the advertisers. But athletes are not trained

917
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 1: to think like that. That's that's not how they think.

918
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 1: And frankly, they shouldn't have to think like that, because

919
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 1: it used to be that your literal job was just

920
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:24,800
Speaker 1: to go and play ball, right, Your your job was

921
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 1: not to be a social justice warrior. But then it

922
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 1: became that the media created all of these advertising incentives

923
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 1: to be bigger than your actual athletic profile and would

924
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 1: allow It used to be that if you've got a

925
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 1: big advertising contract, the way you got a big advertising

926
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 1: contract was you were good at the support that you played.

927
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,279
Speaker 1: Now that you get a big advertising contract, is your

928
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 1: mediocre too decent at the support that you play, but

929
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:44,920
Speaker 1: you say a couple of super woke things and you

930
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 1: go in social justice rally. I mean, my guess is

931
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:50,439
Speaker 1: that Dwayne Wade, who was an amazing player in his prime,

932
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:52,879
Speaker 1: they're probably getting just as many advertising contracts are close

933
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 1: to it now for being a social justice warrior as

934
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 1: he was when he was in his prime with the heat.

935
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 1: Be sure to catch live editions about Kicked the Coverage

936
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 1: with Clay Travis week days at six am Eastern, three

937
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:05,800
Speaker 1: am Pacific. We're talking to Ben Shapiro. I'm Clay Travis.

938
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 1: Wins and lost his podcast where you talked about about

939
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 1: five or six years ago you noticed this stark evolution.

940
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 1: I agree with you on the timing, uh, And where

941
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 1: does it go from here? Do fans ultimately the markets

942
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 1: ultimately react and and athletes end up recognizing wait a minute,

943
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:25,720
Speaker 1: this might not be best business? Or are we pass

944
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 1: the point if we crossed the rubicon, so to speak,

945
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 1: and there's no way to go back. I think across

946
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 1: the rubicon at this point, and I think that you know,

947
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 1: as you know, we both trended on Twitter for saying

948
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 1: exactly this, But I think, oh, it's amazing, it will

949
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 1: come up. It's unbelievable. But there there will come a

950
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 1: point here where so many people have tuned out, Like

951
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 1: I still love the sport of basketball, I just don't

952
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:47,120
Speaker 1: want to be lectured to about politics with which I disagree.

953
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 1: So there will come a point where if the league's

954
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 1: don't figure out that people like the sport but they

955
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 1: don't like the politics, where people will just form alternative

956
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 1: leagues where they banned the politics. I mean, David Sturne

957
00:41:57,520 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 1: us to recognize this, right, I mean he stopped, he

958
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:05,880
Speaker 1: stopped the player on the Nuggets from from from sitting exactly.

959
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 1: I mean, like this is this This used to be

960
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:10,840
Speaker 1: kind of well understood, and then they forgot about it

961
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,760
Speaker 1: because now they're sort of micro targetting audiences as opposed

962
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 1: to broadcasting. It's sort of the difference that happened in

963
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 1: television one cable began. Instead of broadcasting, you narrowcast it,

964
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 1: and so sports are now narrowcasting. Well, somebody's gonna come

965
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 1: along and eat their lunch by by broadcasting and saying, Okay,

966
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:25,879
Speaker 1: we're gonna go out and we're gonna hire the five

967
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,320
Speaker 1: best players and the and the rule is going to

968
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 1: be that there's just there's no politics on the field,

969
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:31,839
Speaker 1: and we'll show out a few bucks begause. I mean

970
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:34,919
Speaker 1: the a there's one point where the USFL basically tried

971
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 1: this with Steve Young. They just did it wrong. But

972
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 1: the but the notion that you could start a rival

973
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:40,840
Speaker 1: sports league by signing some of the best players for

974
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 1: a few million bucks and draw the eyeballs there and

975
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:45,439
Speaker 1: then not insult the viewers. I mean, I think there's

976
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 1: a lot of money to be made there. So it's

977
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 1: it's ugly for the country because I don't think that

978
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 1: you should have to have two separate sports flags and

979
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 1: one for non politics and one for politics, or one

980
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:54,800
Speaker 1: for right wing politics and one for lessian politics. Like

981
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 1: it kills the water cooler, because if we're watching separate

982
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,239
Speaker 1: sports games, then what exactly do we talk about when

983
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:01,759
Speaker 1: we disagrand every thing else? But it seems like that's

984
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 1: inexorably the direction in which we're oving. Talking to Ben Shapiro,

985
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 1: whose new book is How to Destroy America Three Easy Steps,

986
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 1: you can follow them on Twitter at Ben Shapiro. Uh,

987
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 1: when you look at at that sort of eventual reality,

988
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 1: a large part of it, I would argue, is being

989
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 1: driven by social media. I think social media has been

990
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 1: good for certainly people like you and me, because it's

991
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 1: allowed us to broaden our audience, but for the nation

992
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 1: as a whole. How destructive do you believe social media

993
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:31,360
Speaker 1: has been and how much of our current chaotic situation

994
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 1: is directly connected to the evolution and creation of social media.

995
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:38,839
Speaker 1: Social media has been really instructive in that it got

996
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 1: rid of normal human relationships. I mean, the notion was

997
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:43,359
Speaker 1: that you could be from some people across the aisle,

998
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 1: but now because you get retweets and likes for for

999
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:48,880
Speaker 1: being a jackass, Basically what I've said about Twitter is

1000
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 1: the Twitter is a place to dunk and be dunked upon.

1001
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:52,759
Speaker 1: And so if you're not dunking, they're being dunked upon.

1002
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 1: You're basically wasting your time. Right, you're shooting twall foot jumpers,

1003
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 1: midrage shumppers, and nobody nobody gets rich shooting closed midraye jumpers. Right,

1004
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 1: take the three or door dunk. And so that's that's

1005
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 1: really what what Twitter is all about. To incentivizes extreme

1006
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 1: right record, incentivizes people to be church and it gives

1007
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 1: you all sorts of credit for saying the thing that

1008
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 1: is unstable, except that the most stable things on Twitter

1009
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 1: are the unstable things. Right, If you're truly unstable, you

1010
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:17,840
Speaker 1: can't say it. So it's it's created all sorts of

1011
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:20,279
Speaker 1: weird insensive structures. So and I'm real grateful as you

1012
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 1: say that social media is there because it allows alternative

1013
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:25,399
Speaker 1: points of views to get out there. But I will

1014
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 1: say that the one of the things that it's also

1015
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,359
Speaker 1: done in terms of general general sports level is made

1016
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:34,319
Speaker 1: people have expectations of athletes they never would have had before.

1017
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 1: So it's happening in the in the athletic world is

1018
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 1: basically what happened in Hollywood in the nineties, sixties and seventies.

1019
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:40,880
Speaker 1: For a long time, there's a studio system in Hollywood

1020
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:43,839
Speaker 1: that basically said, our stars are our stars. Their private

1021
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:45,800
Speaker 1: lives are up limits. They are in the movies. We

1022
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:48,480
Speaker 1: create these images for them, and those are the glitzy, glamorous,

1023
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:50,440
Speaker 1: glamorous images. That's why the oscars used to get big

1024
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 1: ratings because that was the only time you saw the

1025
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:54,359
Speaker 1: stars when they weren't actually on your on your film screen.

1026
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 1: And then in the sixties and seventies they started to

1027
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 1: do politics that he can every day kind of players

1028
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 1: in politics, and they were in your news paper and

1029
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:02,920
Speaker 1: they're on TV, and it radically changed the way that

1030
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 1: Americans think about politics and about Hollywood. Now you're seeing

1031
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:07,800
Speaker 1: the same thing happened in sports. It used to be

1032
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 1: the only time you saw Michael Jordan's when he was

1033
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 1: on the field, or when when he was on the court.

1034
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 1: Rather the only time you saw Drew Brees is when

1035
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 1: he was on the field. Well, social media has democratized

1036
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 1: the ability to get out a message that you want

1037
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:20,279
Speaker 1: to promulgate. So now it's turned into well, you're not

1038
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 1: messaging strongly enough. Right now, there's an expectation that that

1039
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:26,320
Speaker 1: athletes are going to be political, and if they're not political,

1040
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:29,239
Speaker 1: then it's not that they're being smart. The athletes are

1041
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 1: not speaking out loudly enough. And this is how you

1042
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:33,400
Speaker 1: see all of the bullying that takes place of people

1043
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:35,400
Speaker 1: who haven't put up the check mark, haven't put up

1044
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:37,759
Speaker 1: the blue square or the black square, people who haven't

1045
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,359
Speaker 1: message in a way that we want, and so we're

1046
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 1: now going to bully them into it. Like thirty years ago.

1047
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 1: That makes no sense because none of the athletes were

1048
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 1: saying any of this stuff. Now the expectation is that

1049
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:47,839
Speaker 1: you have to say this stuff. And if you don't

1050
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 1: say this stuff, then simply by process of process and

1051
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:53,879
Speaker 1: elimination and expectation, we know that you're not truly woke.

1052
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 1: What's the thing that the last couple of questions for you,

1053
00:45:58,080 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 1: you mentioned the fact that we were trending. I went

1054
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:01,919
Speaker 1: on your show, we talked about I don't even remember

1055
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 1: what the latest controversy was, but I was talking about

1056
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 1: the latest sports controversy with you. Um, I you know,

1057
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:08,840
Speaker 1: I get in bed, I'm about to go to sleep,

1058
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:10,680
Speaker 1: and I uh, and I happened to get some text,

1059
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 1: Hey you're trending, and I'm like, I have no idea

1060
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:14,840
Speaker 1: what I'm trending for, right, And you say and do

1061
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:17,360
Speaker 1: a lot of things every day now too, and sometimes

1062
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 1: you'll find out you're trending for something that you might

1063
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:21,800
Speaker 1: say twenty times a day, and for some reason somebody

1064
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: clipped in and went up, what's the funniest or most

1065
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:27,800
Speaker 1: unbelievable thing that you have found yourself trending for? Is

1066
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,760
Speaker 1: there one that stands out? I one actually was pretty

1067
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 1: good because that one I literally like we were trending

1068
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 1: because I think the contention I was making is I

1069
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 1: don't like my sports from politics. That's pretty much the

1070
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 1: entire thing. You were trended for that, And I thought

1071
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 1: that's proposition in the Yeah, I don't think that they're

1072
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:45,880
Speaker 1: they're like that many people who are like I desperately

1073
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 1: need my basketball with the side of commentary on the

1074
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 1: racial situation in America. Um, but that one was pretty ridiculous. Um.

1075
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 1: There's been a few. I mean there there's I think

1076
00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:59,879
Speaker 1: I trended on Saturday because I put up a map

1077
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 1: of massing in the United States alongside the map of

1078
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:06,240
Speaker 1: the the caseload in different places of the United States,

1079
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 1: and I said, there's a pattern here, and then my

1080
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:09,759
Speaker 1: follow up tweet was the pattern here is that where

1081
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:11,799
Speaker 1: there's a high caseload, people are putting on masks because

1082
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 1: people act rationally. And that's trended because people decided to

1083
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 1: take the first tweet out of context and suggest that

1084
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:18,920
Speaker 1: are saying masks don't work, which I explicitly said is

1085
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:20,960
Speaker 1: not what the case in the second week, right, And

1086
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:23,279
Speaker 1: so they waited like six hours both tweets were already up,

1087
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 1: and then they trended it so that that one was

1088
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:27,719
Speaker 1: pretty good. Um, they've been just a bunch. And there's

1089
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:30,360
Speaker 1: one on on COVID where I pointed out that the

1090
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 1: people who are dying of COVID are disproportionately elderly, and

1091
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 1: that's that there's a different public policy consideration than if

1092
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:37,680
Speaker 1: a bunch of thirty or twenty year olds were dying.

1093
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:39,800
Speaker 1: People like, are you saying that you want to kill grandma? Like,

1094
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 1: of course, I'm not saying that hell's wrong with you people.

1095
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:46,239
Speaker 1: By the again twitters, it's the dumbest place on earth.

1096
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 1: And I just figure I'm gonna trend once every two

1097
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 1: weeks no matter what. And the good news is that

1098
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 1: after you've trended, there's basically like a two week grace period.

1099
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:54,800
Speaker 1: It feels like where Twitter has some sort of algorithm

1100
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 1: where they don't let your trend for a couple of weeks,

1101
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 1: so they trend to be on Saturday. It's I completely

1102
00:47:57,680 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 1: easy for a couple of weeks. Do you enjoy being

1103
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:02,320
Speaker 1: in the five it every day? I do. I like

1104
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:04,799
Speaker 1: kind of throwing punches. I like being in the mud,

1105
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 1: the muck, whatever you want to call it, because I'm

1106
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 1: a big First Amendment guy. And I also feel like

1107
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 1: if there weren't people making the arguments that I'm making,

1108
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 1: almost no one in all of sports media would be

1109
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:17,959
Speaker 1: making them, which is it blows my mind. But Jason

1110
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:20,080
Speaker 1: Wentlock and I talked about this a lot in relation

1111
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 1: to out Kick. If we didn't exist, there's literally no

1112
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:26,359
Speaker 1: one out there who would be making the arguments, which

1113
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:28,920
Speaker 1: I believe are correct arguments, by the way, But it's

1114
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 1: not even that, uh, you know that other people would

1115
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 1: be fighting these battles. It's like it would just be

1116
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:36,760
Speaker 1: a totally abandoned battlefield. There would be no one arguing

1117
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 1: what we are arguing. It blows my mind sometimes and

1118
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 1: I imagine for you, you feel the same way in

1119
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 1: the world of politics, Yeah, I mean, I think that's right.

1120
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 1: I will say that I think that the world of

1121
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 1: politics is more wearying than the world of sports, because

1122
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:51,319
Speaker 1: I think that, you know, at least every so often

1123
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:52,960
Speaker 1: you get to take a break and talk about fun stuff.

1124
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 1: You occasionally get to talk about the game. But but

1125
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:01,720
Speaker 1: for me, because it's politics all the time, it definitely

1126
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:03,719
Speaker 1: gets tiresome at some point when you're thinking, like, why

1127
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 1: is it even controversial? Why is it even remotely controversial?

1128
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 1: Like I do, honestly, God, do not understand why COVID

1129
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:14,320
Speaker 1: policy is particularly controversially. Right answer to this, everybody, you know,

1130
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 1: out of an abundance of caution, where where masks the

1131
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:20,200
Speaker 1: the we can't stay lock in our homes forever, and

1132
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 1: we would like to make it safe for our kids

1133
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 1: to go to schools and buy and launch. Kids are

1134
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:25,880
Speaker 1: not being disproportionate, are not being affected like nearly at

1135
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 1: all by this thing Like these are all I feel

1136
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:31,640
Speaker 1: like they should be one percent propositions, and somehow everything

1137
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:34,439
Speaker 1: turns into rockham Stockhem robots. So at a certain point

1138
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:36,279
Speaker 1: when it's an important issue, I love the Fike right

1139
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:38,320
Speaker 1: when it's when it's the lack of the process in

1140
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:41,880
Speaker 1: the Kavanaugh hearings, when it's the when it's you know,

1141
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 1: the the nineteen project bullcraft that's being promulgated on, like

1142
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 1: that's that's simes when I feel like the fight's important.

1143
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:50,399
Speaker 1: What's really tiring is when it's a minor, stupid issue

1144
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:52,279
Speaker 1: and it becomes the the issue of the day, and

1145
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:55,320
Speaker 1: suddenly I'm forced to talk about whether we ought to have,

1146
00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 1: you know, whether mandatory masking is going to solve COVID,

1147
00:49:58,120 --> 00:49:59,759
Speaker 1: and whether Donald Trump is a is a very very

1148
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:01,720
Speaker 1: bad to Orange man for his late and dumb tweet

1149
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:03,279
Speaker 1: when we all know it's just a stupid tweet that

1150
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,239
Speaker 1: he sends every five seconds. He's been Shapiro. I'm Clay

1151
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:08,360
Speaker 1: Travis is the Wins and Losses podcast. Check out the

1152
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 1: book How to Destroy American Three Easy Steps. Follow Ben

1153
00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 1: at Ben Shapiro on Twitter and appreciate all of your time.

1154
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:16,759
Speaker 1: Go check out the other Wins and Losses episodes that

1155
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:19,359
Speaker 1: we have. I think you'll enjoy them. Thanks, Ben. Thank

1156
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 1: That is the latest. We're gonna try to get more

1157
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:26,360
Speaker 1: and more of these done long form conversations. Let me

1158
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:28,279
Speaker 1: know who you'd like to hear from. Go rate us,

1159
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 1: give us five stars and we'll be back with another

1160
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 1: Wins and Losses soon. In the meantime, go subscribe to

1161
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 1: the OutKick the Coverage podcast as well as Outkicked the Show,

1162
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:38,840
Speaker 1: and as always, check out out kick dot com for

1163
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:41,280
Speaker 1: the latest this has been Wins and Losses Clay Travis

1164
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:44,760
Speaker 1: and Ben Shapiro. Fox Sports Radio has the best sports

1165
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 1: talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows

1166
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:50,840
Speaker 1: at Fox sports Radio dot com and within the I

1167
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app search f s R to listen live.