1 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. You know, I guess 2 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: since about two thousand, two thousand twelve, I've appeared on 3 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 1: various television networks over that period of time, and one 4 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: of the things I've taken great pleasure in is the 5 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: fact that I wear ties on air. I love it. 6 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:39,159 Speaker 1: And the reason I love it is that Obama ties 7 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,279 Speaker 1: at thrift stores. Because so many people spend so much 8 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:44,599 Speaker 1: money to look really good on air. I go out 9 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: and I find the coolest ties I can find, and 10 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 1: I wear them on the air. I think part of 11 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:51,879 Speaker 1: it just has to go with the fact that I 12 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: grew up with not a lot of money, and I 13 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: like to kind of display that on air, that you 14 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: can look good without spending a bunch of money. But 15 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: the case I'm going to cover today actually talks about 16 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: a favorite tie. It talks about a favorite tie that 17 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: a gentleman like to wear on a regular basis. It 18 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 1: talks about an overdose involving Fentnel, and it talks about 19 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: a relationship gone bad. Today we're gonna talk about the 20 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 1: home side of Francis Kelly. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and 21 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: this is body Backs. Joining me today is my friend 22 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 1: Jackie Howard, executive producer of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Jackie, 23 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: I don't know about you. When I was a kid, 24 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: you had to get all gussied up to go to church, 25 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: and part of that was wearing a tie, of warning, 26 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 1: to tie my entire life. And you know, it's hard 27 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: for me not to wear a tie, I think when 28 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: I go out in public and that sort of thing 29 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: to do appearances and whatnot. People are more casual about it. 30 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: But some of us guys just like our ties. And 31 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: in this particular case, this poor fellow had a tie 32 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: that he loved, he loved, and he apparently wore it 33 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 1: on a regular basis, and interestingly enough, this tie actually 34 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: led to his death. Well, I'm gonna tell you, Joe, 35 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: while I did get gussied up to go to church, 36 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: I can categorically tell you I did not wear a tie. 37 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 1: We're talking today about forty six year old Francis Kelly. 38 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 1: When Francis Kelly's body was discovered, police found him on 39 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 1: his couch in his home and a bag of cocaine 40 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: underneath him. But at the time they did observe some 41 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: bruising around his eyes, elbows, knees and hand. However, there 42 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: was no evidence to suggest that foul play was involved 43 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: in Kelly's death, so initially before the autopsy they made 44 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 1: some assumptions that he had in fact odd because he 45 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 1: had this bag of cocaine. The autopsy discovered that Kelly 46 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 1: was strangle and sustained blunt force trauma to his head 47 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 1: and it wasn't cocaine that was found in his system. 48 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: But as you mentioned, fentnyl. So let's talk first about 49 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:17,519 Speaker 1: the difference between fentnyl and cocaine and what each would 50 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 1: do to you having that in your system. Yeah, you know, 51 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 1: you're not going to see a lot of differences I 52 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 1: don't think externally as a result of you know, cocaine 53 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: abuse versus finnyl abuse. There's certain things that you can 54 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: look for. People that use cocaine many times will have 55 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 1: a real wasted appearance. I guess as a result of 56 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: you know, kind of hyperactivity. Uh, they don't keep weight 57 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: on them very well. Back in the eighties, when people 58 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: snorted a lot of cocaine, you'd have spontaneous nose bleeds. 59 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:52,839 Speaker 1: I've actually worked work cases of snorting cocaine where individuals 60 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: have eroded the septum in their nose. You know, that 61 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 1: cartilaginous separation that you have between both of your nostrils 62 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: and it kind of alter rates, that sort of thing, 63 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: and those are things that you look for, and you 64 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: you look for needle tracks as well, but you know 65 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: you can have needle tracks associated with the use of 66 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: a fentanyl and cocaine as well. You know, they're both 67 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: rendered down. You can put it in a liquid form 68 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:18,039 Speaker 1: and essentially injected, So you're not going to see a 69 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: lot of differences necessarily just upon initial observation of subjects 70 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:27,039 Speaker 1: at the scene. So you know, what do you turn to, Well, 71 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 1: you turn to any kind of changes that might have 72 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: happened internally, and that's one of the things that we do. 73 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 1: You know, at autopsy with cocaine in particularly, you might 74 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:39,840 Speaker 1: see signs of particularly those individuals that have long term 75 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 1: abuse of cocaine, you'll see hypertensive changes in the heart 76 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,919 Speaker 1: that you get a condition called left ventricular hypertrophe, and 77 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: it's just kind of a fancy term for saying that 78 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 1: the the wall of the heart thickens again left left 79 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: ventricular hypertrophy, and so you begin to see it with 80 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 1: the the actual wall of the heart began to thicken, 81 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 1: and it's as a result of individuals drug use. Sometimes 82 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: it can be a natural event as well, and there'll 83 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 1: be the thickening that occurs, and we do measurements on 84 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: the walls of the heart at autopsy to give an 85 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 1: idea if it's and it's what they refer to as 86 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:22,280 Speaker 1: it's normal anatomical configuration. And you know, if you see 87 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 1: some kind of anomaly like that, you might say, well, 88 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:28,160 Speaker 1: you know what, maybe this person has just got severe hypertension, 89 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: maybe they've got something else genetic that you know, will 90 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: genetically predispose them to to some of these things, or 91 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: it could be a drug related event like them utilizing cocaine, 92 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: particularly on a regular basis. Cocaine is actually a stimulant. 93 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 1: It's it's going to increase the metabolic activity in our body. 94 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 1: It pushes your blood pressure up, these sorts of things. 95 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: But fitting alongto the hand, it's a synthetic opiate. That 96 00:05:54,680 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 1: means it's created in a laboratory and it depresses the system. So, 97 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: you know, how we talked about the heart relative to 98 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:07,039 Speaker 1: the cocaine. If you begin to think about the lungs 99 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: relative to fentyl that's what really is hammered in the body. 100 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:15,039 Speaker 1: And many times when you have an individual that has died, 101 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: particularly of what's referred to as acute o D and acute. 102 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 1: You know, just so we understand, acute is like a 103 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: sudden event as opposed to chronic, which means long term. 104 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: But if you have an acute event involving an opiate 105 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 1: like this, you'll have people that have very very heavy 106 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: lungs at autopsy. That means that they'll be heavily congested. 107 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 1: They'll weigh more than they normally should. Because we weigh 108 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 1: each organ in a scale. And I don't know if 109 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: people know this, but it's kind of a horrible thought. 110 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: The next time you go to the grocery store and 111 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 1: you see a scale that um that's in the produce aisle, 112 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:59,359 Speaker 1: that is exactly the kind of scale that's used in 113 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 1: the more to weigh individual organs. And there are certain 114 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:06,359 Speaker 1: parameters that we look for for organ weights, and any 115 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: time we have an organ that is over the expected 116 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: weight for that particular age, that will make a scratch 117 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: our head a little bit and say, well, what's causing 118 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: this heaviness? Or if it's lighter, for instance, which most 119 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: of the time, you find things that are heavier, and 120 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 1: in the cases of opiates like this opiate O D, 121 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: you would expect to find the lungs being heavier, congested 122 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: with fluid and blood and that sort of thing, and 123 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: sometimes that's indicative of an opiate O D. One fascinating 124 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: thing that you see at crime scenes relative to individuals 125 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 1: that have overdosed on some type of depressant like an 126 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: opiate is you'll have a presentation of what's referred to 127 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: as a frothy edemitous cone is what it's called. And 128 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: you'll see this kind of white foam looks like the 129 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: head of a beard. And we've actually talked about this 130 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 1: before on body bag that's issues from the nose and 131 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 1: from the mouth, and it'll be tainted in a pink, 132 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: kind of a pink color, and again that's as a 133 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: result of this kind of hyper congestion that's going on 134 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: where the people are really struggling to breeze. And because 135 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: with this drug in particular, you begin to think about, 136 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 1: you know, what does it do systemically, How does it 137 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: affect the brain, how does it affect your motor functions? 138 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 1: These sorts of things, and you'll see these individuals that 139 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: cannot move around because folks might not realize. Fentyl was 140 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: actually originally developed as a partner for surgical anesthesia with 141 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: other drugs, So it is meant to put an individual 142 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: down into this kind of deep repose, if you will, 143 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: to get them manageable for surgery. It's also used for 144 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: pain relief for years and years. Kind of interesting. They 145 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: developed fentyl and placed it in a patch. People have 146 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: seen nicotine patches for instance, that people wear, you know, 147 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 1: to quit smoking. Well, people have had fentyl patches as well, 148 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: and the patch itself is essentially populated with the dosage 149 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 1: of fentyl, and then it's what's called transdermal. You put 150 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: the patch over prescribed area and that medication kind of 151 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: seeps in through the skin and goes into the system 152 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: and gives pain relief. People that have things like crowding, 153 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: back pain and hip pain and all those sorts of 154 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: things that people develop over tom as a result of 155 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: age or injury can get relief with it. So it's 156 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: a very very powerful drug. And then when it's out 157 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: on the street and it's being manufactured, say for instance, 158 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 1: in a clandestine lab. Because fentyl is one of those 159 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 1: things that is just the absolute scourge of our society 160 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 1: right now. One of the many drugs it's made and 161 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: not very well controlled environments. It's made in other countries, 162 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 1: for instance, and then people smuggle it in and you 163 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: don't really know what's in it. It can make for 164 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: a very very lethal cocktail. What you're telling me, Joe, 165 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: I don't have a lot of experience in what you're 166 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 1: talking about. So if I understand you, what you're telling 167 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:18,319 Speaker 1: me is one is an upper and one's a downer. Yeah, 168 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 1: And i'd also like to say, as your friend, I'm 169 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 1: glad you don't have a lot of experience into Jackie. 170 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 1: So but yeah, yeah, you're right. One is an upper, uh, 171 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 1: and one is a downer. And when you begin to 172 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 1: think about the finel in particular, it essentially sends the 173 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: victim into respiratory failure. We here a lot about cardiac failure, 174 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 1: but it the lung has become so heavy as a 175 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 1: result of this congestion that's going on. Oh so it's 176 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: it's not that they absorb anything, it's that they can't function, 177 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 1: so they're congested with fluids. Right. Yet, I had an 178 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:55,559 Speaker 1: old doctor one time actually referred to it. It's like 179 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 1: the patients, it's it's the equivalent of somebody trying to 180 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 1: run in mud, and it's it becomes so labored and 181 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: they're struggling so hard, and they don't have an awareness, 182 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: you know, to kind of you can't you can't fight 183 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 1: fight your way out of it at a chemical level, 184 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 1: because it's hammering the body so hard it would be 185 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: very difficult to kind of pull back from it. That's 186 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 1: why nowadays, you know, they they carry narcan. You know, 187 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,839 Speaker 1: we have many number of agencies out there that apply 188 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: an oar CAN. They have the ability and it kind 189 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: of counteracts this kind of depressant event that occurs with 190 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 1: a subject that has been found down. There's so many 191 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 1: people that just kind of fall over as a result 192 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: of being an exposed phenyl. They're they're even cases out there, 193 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,199 Speaker 1: and this dangerous and how insidious this drug is. Our 194 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 1: law enforcement officers can go inside of the cabin of 195 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: a car many times, okay, and then think about how 196 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: horrific this is, and they'll open up a bag that 197 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 1: might contain this finnyl that has been made in some 198 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: clandestine lab and so only this kind of puff cloud 199 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 1: comes out and this is almost in a histamine like form. 200 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: It kind of spreads into the air and the cops 201 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: don't note it's there, you know, they're just kind of 202 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 1: searching the area. It's not like they have a gas 203 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 1: mask on or a ventilator on or something, you know, 204 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: like you see with firefighters. So they inhalate this stuff 205 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 1: and oh my gosh, you inhalate this stuff in a 206 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 1: powdered form and it gets right into the mucous membranes 207 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 1: and it's absorbed and this is going into the lung. 208 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:31,119 Speaker 1: So how much more so, for instance, if an individual 209 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: has it mixed, and you'll find people that are mixing 210 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: it in cocaine, which is kind of interesting. You know, 211 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: you think about cocaine, which is in fact a stimulant, 212 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 1: being mixed mixed with fentel, which is at present kind 213 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 1: of takes us back to the days of you know, 214 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: you think about how Belushi died. He died of what 215 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: was called a speedball, which was a combination of of 216 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,199 Speaker 1: cocaine and heroin and that was directly injected and it 217 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 1: just really wrecks the system. But just fentel by itself 218 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 1: can even send somebody to send a passive status that 219 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: a scene like a police officer that's just kind of 220 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: looking around that that kind of histamine that they can inhalate, 221 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:11,959 Speaker 1: it can kill you. You've mentioned a couple of times now, Joe, 222 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 1: that fentnyl is man made. So is this what we're 223 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: hearing all the time about in the same vein that 224 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: methemphetamine is main where people are pulling things out of 225 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: cold midst. Yeah, well, you know, fentnyl itself is you know, 226 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 1: it's based on the molecule that's you know that's originally 227 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: an opiate, you know, which is a naturally occurring to pressant. 228 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: We've had, for instance, we've had like morphine, you know, 229 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: for a long long time, and morphine is a natural 230 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: derivative that you know, you go all the way back 231 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:47,320 Speaker 1: to the Civil War and you begin to think about 232 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 1: people were trying to use painkillers, if you will, where 233 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:55,959 Speaker 1: you know, they were able to essentially draw out that 234 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: element of of the poppy plant for instance, which is 235 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: you know where heroin derives from, and applied this agent 236 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: in order to reduce pain. And it has been effective. 237 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's given a lot of relief. Famously, 238 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 1: you know, you can think about our troops out in 239 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 1: the field. You know, in any number of movies we've 240 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:18,959 Speaker 1: seen from World War Two, where the troops used to 241 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 1: carry serettes, they call them serettes, the little ampules with 242 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 1: the built in needle of morphine. These guys would be 243 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: in terrible pain after sustaining some horrific wound. Their fellow 244 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 1: soldiers would take the serette and jam it into their 245 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 1: leg and apply the morphine, and it gives instant relief 246 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: to a certain degree. It stems the pain because it 247 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: acts on the pain centers and it mutes that pain. 248 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: I just said, the person is not suffering. But you know, 249 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: here's here's the key. When you're talking about a trug 250 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 1: like this and in its synthetic form, which now you 251 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 1: take that original naturally occurring molecule and you synthesize it 252 00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 1: and you make it a man made substance where the 253 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 1: molecule is very similar to that that is occurring in nature, 254 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: and you adjusted, you know, it's said, for instance, like 255 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 1: finnel Is, just hold onto your hat for this is 256 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 1: it's like a hundred times more powerful than Heroin. Just 257 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: let that sink in just for a second. A hundred 258 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: times more powerful that means it requires less of this 259 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: substance to get the same high than an individual might 260 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 1: get from heroin. But if you adjust that dosage just 261 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: slightly and you apply just a bit more, the person 262 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: will essentially flattening and done. You know the thing about 263 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: medical with that investigation that I've always tried to draw 264 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: them into any investigator that I train or those just 265 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: to give props to them those that train, is it 266 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: is always essential as an investigator you go to the scene, 267 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: You take a look at the body in its context 268 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: in which it is found. And in this case with 269 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 1: Francis Kelly, it led to some serious, serious questions that 270 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 1: the police had. So here's my question. The autopsy found 271 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: Kelly had fentinyl in his system, and yet there was 272 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: cocaine underneath him. So how did he get the fentyl? 273 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: We know that he ingested it. Now is that a 274 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: normal way of getting fentyl? Is that going to have 275 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: a different reaction in the body. We know that he 276 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: was ultimately given fentnel three times. It was in his 277 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: oatmeal and put in his me so soup, and I'm 278 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 1: honestly I'm not sure about what food I him the 279 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 1: third one was in, But would he have tasted it? 280 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:05,120 Speaker 1: Would he have known that he was eating this? And 281 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: does ingesting it offer you a different kind of effect? 282 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:14,400 Speaker 1: Those are valid questions and sense that. Um, And I'll 283 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: go ahead and tell you what what Mr Kelly had 284 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: remarked At one point time, he had made a remark 285 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: that he had taken a bite of food and it 286 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: tasted funny. I mean, how many of us in the 287 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:30,880 Speaker 1: audience have ever eaten something somewhere and it had an 288 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: unnatural taste to it? If it's prepared at a restaurant 289 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 1: or something like that, it almost has a chemical taste 290 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 1: to it. A great example for me, I don't like 291 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: to use a dishwasher and him, so I'll just use like, 292 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: you know, dish liquid and scrub things out. And do 293 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 1: you ever have the experience where you didn't quite get 294 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: all of the dish liquid out of some type of 295 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 1: vessel that you're cleaning, and then later you go back 296 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: and you say, wow, this tastes like distettergent. Well, think 297 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,640 Speaker 1: about that. It's it's got something that is unnatural to taste. 298 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 1: So yeah, he was aware of it. I think he 299 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 1: was aware of one of these times that someone had 300 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:11,879 Speaker 1: attempted to actually give him some type of agent, which 301 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: you know, of course turns out to be fentyl in 302 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 1: his system. And yeah, there's an awareness and a lot 303 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:19,120 Speaker 1: of it has to do with how much is applied. 304 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,400 Speaker 1: One of the great questions you hear about if fentyl 305 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: is applied, or any kind of drug is applied, how's 306 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:29,119 Speaker 1: it going to get systemically into the system the quickest? 307 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,400 Speaker 1: And boy, I mean, I've got some incredible stories from 308 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,399 Speaker 1: over the years where people you know, placed any number 309 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 1: of different types of agents in their body in different 310 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: locations certainly, and all have a variety of different effects, 311 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 1: and and how how long it takes for them to 312 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: kind of be absorbed into the system and will they 313 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: totally be absorbed. You think about an individual, for instance, 314 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: that that has something like cocaine or fentyl, or you know, 315 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: people have smarted heroine. That's something that has been done. Well, 316 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: it goes into the mute as membrane. Well, when you 317 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:05,400 Speaker 1: absorb this, where's it going well into the mucous membrane, 318 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: it's also going directly into the lungs, and so the 319 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 1: uptake of this, it's going to be really quick. Another 320 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:14,439 Speaker 1: quick way is through I V injection, which I'm not 321 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,159 Speaker 1: talking about like an ivy bag hanging in a in 322 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 1: a hospital. I'm talking about intravenously where an individual. You've 323 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: seen movies where people will will tie off essentially and 324 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,360 Speaker 1: they'll you know, render down whatever it is that they're 325 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 1: injecting into their body with a spoon, heating it, rendering 326 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 1: it down, and then they draw it up and injected. 327 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 1: They tie off with a tourniquet, the vessel pops up 328 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: and they go directly into the vein. Well, that's very 329 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:42,160 Speaker 1: quick as well. There's something else that's kind of interesting. 330 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:47,640 Speaker 1: People also do something called skin popping, which is very 331 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 1: it's it's really quite disgusting actually, but they will take 332 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 1: an injectable that they've rendered down and they'll go directly 333 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:58,439 Speaker 1: in two their skin, not searching for a vessel. They'll 334 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 1: just they'll go into what's we're for two as into 335 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 1: the sub q fat, which means that layer fat directly 336 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:08,439 Speaker 1: below the skin. And it's called skin popping. And you 337 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:12,159 Speaker 1: have people that skin pop and those drugs are injected 338 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: and there they absorb a little bit slower. But what 339 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: occurs is these drugs that are clandestinely made, they're cut 340 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: with things like heroin, traditionally has been cut with things 341 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 1: like quinine um, talcum powder. Uh, it's been cut with 342 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: baby formula, all kinds of things over the years so 343 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 1: that the dealers can extend their supply of the drugs. 344 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: So they'll cut it so it's like a sixty forty cut. 345 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 1: It won't be in a pure state. And what happens 346 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: is with the skin popping is that these areas will 347 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:50,439 Speaker 1: actually ulterate because when they skin pop. For instance, if 348 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: an individual is in injecting something like quinine or talcum powder, 349 00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: it's not metabolized, it just kind of sits there, but 350 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: the skin it becomes irritated, and then you get an 351 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,400 Speaker 1: ulcerated area. And you'll find many people that skin pop 352 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 1: will have these huge ulcerated lesions all over their bodies. 353 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: And that's types of things that you've seen. And then 354 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: you have people that have particularly in poisonings because that's 355 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,440 Speaker 1: that's the easiest way to get it into a non 356 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,199 Speaker 1: suspecting person system. You know, you approach somebody with a 357 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 1: needle and you inject them or attempt to inject them, 358 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:25,640 Speaker 1: they're going to fight you off most of the time 359 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: if they haven't awareness that this is happening. So many 360 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 1: people will clandestinely put items into uh into food and 361 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 1: stir around or mix it up and then try to 362 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 1: get the person to ingest it. And then of course, 363 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,399 Speaker 1: you know, you have stories of people that mule drugs 364 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 1: in from you know, from various countries, and they of 365 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: course insert a variety of different types of drugs in 366 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 1: into their backside for instance. And you know, I had 367 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 1: I know one kid that came up from South America 368 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: at one point time, from Bolivia specifically, and he had 369 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: twenty condoms that were clipped with surgical staples, and he 370 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,199 Speaker 1: had pure cocaine. And each one of these condoms is 371 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 1: about twenty I'm sorry, it was about ten grams each, 372 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 1: and one of the condoms erupted and he got a 373 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 1: ten gram dosage of cocaine into his large intestine and 374 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 1: it like immediately he just fell over dead. It was 375 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 1: absorbed that quickly into the intestinal lining. I'm giving a 376 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 1: long answer here, but it's you never know how it's 377 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 1: going to be absorbed. And also, you know, if you're 378 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: talking about you know, having it passed through the digestive 379 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 1: track in the form of food, if it's mixed in 380 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: the absorption is going to take a bit longer. It 381 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:45,439 Speaker 1: might even require higher dosage than it would, say, for instance, 382 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:47,919 Speaker 1: if it was being injected directly into a vein. So 383 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: what we're seeing in this case, when Kelly was found, 384 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 1: he was still alive. So what you're telling me is 385 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 1: due to the method that he was given the drug, 386 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,199 Speaker 1: it was not enough to kill him. Yeah, or it 387 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: could be you know, the progression of the metabolism itself, 388 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:10,199 Speaker 1: the progression of the metabolism. You're gonna have to school me, 389 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,640 Speaker 1: but yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, okay, let me, let 390 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 1: me back off a little bit, because that's not that's 391 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,679 Speaker 1: not entirely accurate, but just okay, let's just put in 392 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: common terms relative to people ingesting food, certain types of 393 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,919 Speaker 1: food make you feel different, you know, in um, you know, 394 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 1: depending upon whatever it is. Say, for instance, people that 395 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 1: don't have necessarily a real tolerance for sugar. For instance, 396 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 1: you might eat a candy bar and then it might 397 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 1: taste really good initially, okay, and then maybe ten fifteen 398 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:46,399 Speaker 1: minutes later, your body starts to uptake everything that's in 399 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: the candy bar and your body is not processing it okay, 400 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,920 Speaker 1: and you start to feel really bad. Okay, Maybe people 401 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 1: are pre diabetic or diabetic and they eat this and 402 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: it makes them feel really really bad. Well, that's part 403 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 1: of the metabolic uptake of that nicular substances. Somebody has 404 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: applied some type of agent like funnel into a food source, 405 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: and the individual ing the food source, well, it's passes 406 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: through the mouth and the esophagus and drops into the stomach. Well, 407 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: the stomach sits there and kind of turns this food 408 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: and it's absorbed through the stomach wall. Just because it 409 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: is being absorbed in nutrients are being taken out of it, 410 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 1: doesn't mean you're getting everything out of it. Say, for instance, 411 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 1: if you took the pure substance and injected it directly 412 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: into a vein, all right, So you would either require 413 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,360 Speaker 1: more in order to facilitate this, or it would be 414 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: a matter of the type of agent that you're mixing 415 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 1: it with, whether it's soup for instance, versus a oatmeal 416 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: or grits or something like that that might be a 417 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 1: bit more dense. It might kind of shield the individual 418 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,959 Speaker 1: from ingestion of it totally and and uptaking it. And 419 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: so the longer your body goes along it has a 420 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: higher probability of ingesting it. And maybe you can make 421 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,119 Speaker 1: it through safely. But if this is being done to 422 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: you over and over and over again, sooner or later, 423 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 1: you're going to die. There's nothing as an investigator that 424 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 1: will make you stop cold in your tracks than an 425 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:41,360 Speaker 1: unexpected result at autopsy. It's something that makes you question 426 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 1: your abilities. It's something that makes you question the care 427 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 1: that you took with the case. Because this is this 428 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 1: is key. Once the scene has been left, once the 429 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 1: body has been removed from the scene, you can never reset, 430 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: you can never do it over. You get one shot 431 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 1: at doing it right. And in this case, Jackie, when 432 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 1: they got into this autopsy, they found something completely unexpected 433 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,160 Speaker 1: that is true, and that was the fact that Kelly 434 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: was strangled and did not o d as they initially suspected. 435 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: Kelly's body was found by his former girlfriend Heidie Marie 436 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:29,160 Speaker 1: little Field and her adult daughter Logan Marie Runyon and 437 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: Runyan's boyfriend Robert Walker. Now, the two women had secretly 438 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: got into Kelly's house and poisoned his oatmeal and some 439 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,919 Speaker 1: soup as I told you, with fentyl. But when they 440 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 1: went back to the home, Kelly wasn't dead. He was 441 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 1: still grasping for breath. He was unresponsive but trying to breathe, 442 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: and at that point they decided to finish him off, 443 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: and they used a tie, specifically his favorite tie, to 444 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 1: strangle him. Why was that not originally obvious? Because, as 445 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: you've talked before, usually ligature stranglings leave a mark. So 446 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,119 Speaker 1: why didn't they look at him the investigators when his 447 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 1: body was reported, why didn't they look at him and go, 448 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: oh wait, there's marks there. That's key. I want everyone 449 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 1: in the sound of my voice to envision a male 450 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 1: necktie right now. Just envisioned kind of a standard necktime. 451 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: Not talking about like a you know what, tiny little 452 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:43,400 Speaker 1: string tie or something. I'm talking about a regular necktie there. Why. 453 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,120 Speaker 1: They're two to three inches, maybe four inches, dependent upon 454 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,120 Speaker 1: the particular cycle that you're point through a men's fashion 455 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: and generally they're smooth. Many of them are made out 456 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: of either silk, the really expensive ones, or maybe some 457 00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 1: kind of synthetic version of a silk or to get 458 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 1: the appearance of a silky fabric. And you know, with 459 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 1: with that type of construction of this tie, it's not 460 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,160 Speaker 1: like a rope, and it's not like an electrical chord. 461 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 1: Do you think about a rope or an electrical cord. 462 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,440 Speaker 1: How kind of narrow they are they create when they're 463 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 1: used as a ligature, they create a very narrow furrow. 464 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: It's called a furrow, just like a furrow in a 465 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 1: field that's being plowed, and they're deep. They're very deep 466 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,639 Speaker 1: with rope in particular, because folks will think about rope, 467 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: it's kind of woven many times. Most of the time 468 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: it's woven, and it's made out of a lot of 469 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: different materials, but it's woven. It has a very specific pattern, 470 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 1: you know, you think about like a harry bone pattern, 471 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 1: or if you have a twist like a baling rope. 472 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 1: It it's very rough to the touch, and when you 473 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 1: apply it, the more tension that you put on this thing, 474 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: the deeper the furrow, and it's going to leave behind 475 00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 1: an area of abrasion, or we call it an abraided 476 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: area where this skin is kind of burned beneath it. 477 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 1: Depend upon how long it'spen it will have almost a dry, 478 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 1: kind of a dried out appearance if you will, and 479 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 1: sometimes if you're very very careful and you examine it 480 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 1: very closely, particularly with like a magnifying glass or a 481 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 1: loop like you used to examine photos with you'll see 482 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 1: the pattern actually manifesting itself of the surface in the entry. 483 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 1: And that's really good for us because in forensics, because 484 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: if we find a rope, for instance, or an electrical cord, 485 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: sometimes we can match those things up at least get 486 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: in the ballpark with it, but with a tie. Because 487 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 1: it's so broad you're in, it's so soft, you're not 488 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,959 Speaker 1: going to leave that kind of a braided area on 489 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: the outside. And you know, as was mentioned Francis Kelly, 490 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,479 Speaker 1: he's got ventnyl in a system. Remember what we had 491 00:29:54,520 --> 00:30:01,239 Speaker 1: discussed earlier. Ennyl is a system depressant. It reduces our 492 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: ability to fight back in any way. You think about 493 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 1: the genesis of fennyl. Fentyl is a precursor for anesthesia 494 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 1: or what happens when you go under. You know, anybody 495 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: in the audience that's ever ever had surgery, you know, 496 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 1: they tell you to count backwards and you never get 497 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 1: past about it's meant to relax you. It's a date you. 498 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 1: It puts you in a position where you know, you 499 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 1: can imagine, I don't care how big you are, if 500 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: you've got fentyl on board, you're not gonna be able 501 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 1: to fight back very well. You might initially, but as 502 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: it begins to take hold in your system, you're gonna 503 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 1: become very sleepy and passive. And so you take you 504 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 1: and you combine that with a smooth surface of a literature, 505 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 1: like a tie that doesn't it's not going to leave 506 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 1: this big, bold pattern with a deep furrow. You're not 507 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: necessarily going to see it at the scene unless that 508 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 1: tie has been left in place and tied in the 509 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 1: rear very tightly, which I've had a number of cases 510 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: like that the past. But if the tie is removed 511 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 1: and you might see a little bit of discoloration, it 512 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: might be kind of red, but it's not gonna like 513 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 1: just really jump out at you. And another thing you 514 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 1: have to think about is and I don't I don't 515 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 1: know that that folks really consider this, but when you're 516 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: out on the scene, when you conduct the examination of 517 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 1: a body, you're not in the best circumstances. You're certainly 518 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 1: not in the best circumstances when it comes to lighting, 519 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 1: even if you're you are in somebody's apartment. Okay, I mean, 520 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: how many of us have ever walked into a room 521 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 1: and it's very dimly lit depended upon what that person 522 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: likes in their home. But you take a body and 523 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: you go to the morgue with it, well, the lighting 524 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 1: in most marks now is surgical grade, and trust me, 525 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 1: there are very few shadows in this environment. You have 526 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 1: lights coming at you from all over the place, and 527 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: it's it's to blow out any kind of shadow, so 528 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 1: you can appreciate and see everything that's very brightly lead 529 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: in there. When you get a body back to the morgue, 530 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:03,960 Speaker 1: you're gonna be able to pick up on little nuances 531 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 1: in the morgue. In that environment, you're not going to 532 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: be able to pick up on at the scene. You're 533 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 1: also kneeling over bodies. It might be hot, and you're 534 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 1: not paying as close attention at the scene as you will. 535 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: But when you're in the morgue and you have that 536 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 1: body laid on that table in front of you, you 537 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 1: are fully vested at that moment. We later find out 538 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: that Kelly's death was a result of a custody dispute 539 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 1: between little Field and Kelly. Little Field claimed Kelly was abusive. 540 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: Kelly claimed that little Field would not allow him to 541 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: see the daughter alone and would try to stay in 542 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 1: his home during their visit time. He called it parenting time. 543 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: Who would want to stay in his house during the 544 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 1: parenting time. So the other thing that we find out, 545 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: which I find very interesting and kind of explains some 546 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: things about the cocaine. Knowing that he died from fentnel 547 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 1: and that it was cocaine that was found, We're looking 548 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 1: at a good case of staging here, aren't we. Joe, 549 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, you hit it right on the head. 550 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 1: You're absolutely right, Jackie. You have a group of people, 551 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 1: a confederacy, if you will, of three that are purposed, 552 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: aren't they. They're going out, they've entered into an agreement 553 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: together in order to bring about this guy's death, and 554 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,800 Speaker 1: they've gone so far as to not just, you know, 555 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 1: at the end, perpetrate homicide here, but to set it 556 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: up so that it appears though that this this man's 557 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 1: father odeed himself. And not only are there drugs involved, 558 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 1: but we've got this this mysterious bag of cocaine that's 559 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 1: found at the scene. So that means that somebody was 560 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 1: purposed to go out and acquire cocaine. The investigators revealed, 561 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 1: you know, in this particular case, that these three went 562 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: out and look at the daughter running. When she's on 563 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: the stand, she never, and I mean never denies the 564 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 1: fact that she's got a meth problem. And she's you know, 565 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 1: little Field's attorney, you know, ask her directly, do you 566 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:17,240 Speaker 1: have a problem with drug addiction? And she never denied 567 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:21,920 Speaker 1: it at all, never ever, And so she's connected in 568 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 1: this world. So you know, what are you gonna do. Well, 569 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:26,759 Speaker 1: you go out and you you purchase a bag of 570 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,360 Speaker 1: cocaine at one time, purchased perhaps, and you set this 571 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,240 Speaker 1: man up because you've been going into his house clandestinely 572 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:37,640 Speaker 1: by the way, and poisoning his food. So you figure 573 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:41,719 Speaker 1: you're gonna finish him off. And oh, just just to 574 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,320 Speaker 1: really drive home the point, we're gonna have a bag 575 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,320 Speaker 1: of cocaine we're gonna go out and purchase and sticking 576 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 1: under his body so that when the authorities show up, 577 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 1: you know, maybe the corner. You walk into the room 578 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,760 Speaker 1: and you start to do the examination of the body, 579 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 1: and oh, wow, what do we find here? Will you 580 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 1: find this bag of white power? Or you don't know 581 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,960 Speaker 1: what it is because contrary to what you know, folks think, 582 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:05,920 Speaker 1: you know, we can't just look at a bag of 583 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,719 Speaker 1: white powder and say that is in fact, cocaine or 584 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 1: whatever type of agent that we have to test it 585 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,239 Speaker 1: to confirm it. So you're telling me you stick your 586 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 1: little finger in it and taste it like everybody else 587 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:19,120 Speaker 1: does on TV. No, that does not happen. My god, 588 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 1: If anybody ever, please nobody do that. That is the 589 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 1: most ridiculous thing. I hate that Hollywood actually demonstrates that 590 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 1: because some people think that they can do that, and 591 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 1: it is not something that anyone should ever try to 592 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 1: do at all. That has to be tested and you 593 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,319 Speaker 1: need to handle it with gloves. Fentnel in particular is 594 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 1: nasty in the sense you know they remember they put 595 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,280 Speaker 1: it in patches, and we're not talking about fentyl relative 596 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 1: to this bag, but there's fentyl involved in this case. 597 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,840 Speaker 1: It's transdermal, which means you can absorb it through your skin. 598 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 1: Meth is the same way as well. It is transdermal, 599 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 1: very dangerous stuff, and so you can actually get a 600 00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:59,879 Speaker 1: dosage of this stuff just by handling it with your 601 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 1: bare hands. And the fact that they went out and 602 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,800 Speaker 1: purchased these drugs to plant them at the scene relative 603 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,759 Speaker 1: to this man and to try to paint him in 604 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:13,799 Speaker 1: this light that he odeed what's fascinating, I think to 605 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,720 Speaker 1: me is that, you know, I talked at length about 606 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:24,239 Speaker 1: the tie, that a tie was used, and it's it 607 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:28,759 Speaker 1: kind of, you know, drills down into this relationship that 608 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 1: Littlefield had with Francis Kelly. I think the fact that 609 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 1: it wasn't just a tie, it was his favorite tie. 610 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,440 Speaker 1: And you think about that just for a second. Is 611 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,520 Speaker 1: this a statement that's being made by the perpetrator? You know, 612 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:47,800 Speaker 1: I don't I don't know how many ties Francis Kelly owned. 613 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe he only had one. Maybe it 614 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 1: was a tie that at some point in time someone 615 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 1: who dearly loved him went out and purchased and gave 616 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:02,759 Speaker 1: to him, but it was identified as his favorite tie, 617 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:07,759 Speaker 1: and that it was actually utilized as a means to 618 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 1: bring about his death. And I think that when you 619 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:12,359 Speaker 1: look at this in the final analysis and you think 620 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:16,279 Speaker 1: about that, was it used as a statement that, you know, 621 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:20,160 Speaker 1: I'm going to go to whatever means necessary to keep 622 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,239 Speaker 1: you separated from this child that you have fathered with me. 623 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,400 Speaker 1: And just to kind of put an exclamation point on it, 624 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,279 Speaker 1: I'm gonna grab your favorite tie. I'm gonna wrap it 625 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:31,320 Speaker 1: around your neck, and I'm going to choke you until 626 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:35,600 Speaker 1: you're deceased, because not only to have the the tie 627 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:37,640 Speaker 1: around your neck, I've also got fitting on in your 628 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:41,359 Speaker 1: system now, so you're going to be manageable. And there's 629 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 1: some indication he may have attempted to fight back because 630 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 1: he's got some bruises that were found. It looks as 631 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 1: though he's sustained some type of blunt force trauma and 632 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 1: maybe initially he did attempt to fight back. But when 633 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,280 Speaker 1: you're fighting, just think about this, not only you fighting 634 00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,799 Speaker 1: against this chemical that's in your system that is, by 635 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,920 Speaker 1: the way, a compromising your ability to breathe. Now you've 636 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 1: got something wrapped around your neck that's an external factor 637 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,759 Speaker 1: that is preventing you from uptaking oxygen. He's in a 638 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:14,000 Speaker 1: desperate fight for his life at that moment time. Running, 639 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:17,080 Speaker 1: in her statement from the stand, actually stated that when 640 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:21,400 Speaker 1: they arrived, they made entry into Francis Kelly's home, they 641 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:26,200 Speaker 1: found him on the floor and he was experiencing labored breathing. 642 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:32,359 Speaker 1: And you know it. It it makes you think, did 643 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,839 Speaker 1: they use that tie on him on the floor in 644 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:40,480 Speaker 1: order to asphyxiate him in that position, or did they 645 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:42,799 Speaker 1: do it on the sofa, which they eventually moved his 646 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,960 Speaker 1: body to That goes to this idea of staging. When 647 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,600 Speaker 1: you take a body and you place it into a 648 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:54,400 Speaker 1: position that is other than as it was initially found, 649 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:59,800 Speaker 1: and you plant cocaine beneath the body, that's that a 650 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,399 Speaker 1: horses is a son that there was thought that went 651 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:04,960 Speaker 1: into this, that they wanted to make this appears something 652 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 1: other than it was. He had enough drugs on board 653 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 1: so that when they did enter the apartment that it 654 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,879 Speaker 1: had literally knocked him down to his knees and he 655 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 1: was laboring to breathe at that time, and I guess 656 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,880 Speaker 1: it's at that time that they decided to just finish 657 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,960 Speaker 1: him off. Well, the verdict is in on this case. 658 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:27,840 Speaker 1: Joe and the daughter, Logan Runyan was charged with murder 659 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,719 Speaker 1: and conspiracy to commit murder, and her boyfriend Walker was 660 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 1: charged with two counts of conspiracy to commit murder. Now 661 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:42,400 Speaker 1: Walker pleaded guilty and was sentenced to ten years in prison. 662 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:46,320 Speaker 1: Logan Runyan was sentenced to twenty six years in prison 663 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:52,000 Speaker 1: and another six suspended, and forty two year old Heidi 664 00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:56,760 Speaker 1: Littlefield was sentenced to one fifteen years in the state prison, 665 00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:02,880 Speaker 1: which included sixty years for murder, twenty years for attempted poisonings, 666 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:08,000 Speaker 1: and thirty five years for conspiracy to commit murder resulting 667 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:15,800 Speaker 1: in a death. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is 668 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:16,640 Speaker 1: body bags.