WEBVTT - Winning is Everything, Stupid! with James Carville and Matt Tyrnauer 0:00:04.040 --> 0:00:07.800 James Carville is the legendary political consultant who rose to 0:00:07.840 --> 0:00:11.360 prominence after he helped Bill Clinton win the presidency in 0:00:11.480 --> 0:00:15.040 nineteen ninety two. He is a colorful character with a 0:00:15.080 --> 0:00:19.080 shrewd grasp on how to craft a political campaign and 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:24.000 how to communicate a message. Matt Turnauer is another great communicator. 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:27.800 He has written for Vanity Fair for years, profiling cultural 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:32.360 icons and moguls, myself included. He now makes documentaries and 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:38.680 episodic series about all kinds of fascinating subjects. Valentino, Roy Kane, 0:00:39.080 --> 0:00:42.360 and Nobu are a few. His latest film tells the 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:46.680 story of James Carville's work and his famous marriage to 0:00:46.760 --> 0:00:51.320 the Republican operative Mary Madeleine, and follows him over eighteen 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:56.240 months of the incredibly divisive and consequential twenty twenty four 0:00:56.400 --> 0:01:00.560 presidential campaign. I am very glad to have both of 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:04.760 them join me today on my podcast. Welcome James, Welcome Matt. 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:07.319 Thank you, thank you, Arthur, thank you. 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:11.360 Excited So James, the title of this film is winning 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:13.119 Is everything stupid? 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:13.560 Right? 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:17.039 What in your forty plus years as a consultant on 0:01:17.160 --> 0:01:22.280 campaigns from Clinton to now are the keys to winning well? 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:25.440 First of all, thank you and delighted to be here. 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:28.720 The point I'm trying to make is is that winning 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:34.039 is everything, and the primacy of politics, it trumps everything else. 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:37.600 Political power is more important in cultural power. Political power 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:40.680 is more even more important in financial power, all the 0:01:40.800 --> 0:01:44.520 different religious power. Of all the different sources of power, 0:01:44.560 --> 0:01:47.680 the one that affects the most lives the most directly 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:51.400 is political power. And without winning, you have no political power. 0:01:51.560 --> 0:01:54.200 It's a pretty straightforward argument that we make it. 0:01:54.520 --> 0:01:57.160 And it's extremely worriesome at present. 0:01:56.960 --> 0:01:59.920 Isn't it. It's worsome, but r out of the level 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:02.000 will stay out on a limb. I think there are 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:04.800 reasons to think that we can win this. We're gonna winness. 0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:08.960 Today, Okay, And Matt James was the subject of the 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:12.960 nineteen ninety three documentary The War Room. What propelled you 0:02:13.040 --> 0:02:16.440 to make a documentary about James Carrville at this time? 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:20.280 The War Room is a very memorable film. 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:23.040 I think it's a great film, but it's more than 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:26.360 thirty years ago, and that was really the beginning of 0:02:26.520 --> 0:02:29.519 James Carville's fame. Since then, he's had more than three 0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:33.399 decades of being a household name. And as Paul mcgala, 0:02:33.560 --> 0:02:37.560 his former partner as a campaign strategist, says in the movie, 0:02:37.600 --> 0:02:39.480 He's the smartest son of a bitch who ever did 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:42.120 this for a living. So my thought was that I 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:43.960 started this more than two and a half years ago, 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:47.520 was that it would be amazing to hear from James 0:02:47.520 --> 0:02:50.920 and do a film about him and show how politics 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:54.360 has transformed in the thirty years since he, in essence, 0:02:54.400 --> 0:02:56.400 taught Democrats how to win again. They've been in the 0:02:56.440 --> 0:02:59.120 political wilderness for a quarter of century elements by the 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:01.320 time he spirit Clinton into victory. 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:05.640 But what happened was that he inserted himself into the 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:08.560 twenty twenty four race in a really profound way while 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:12.399 I was making the film and the entire kind. 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:15.560 Of arc of this change when James began very early 0:03:15.600 --> 0:03:19.359 on in the spring of twenty twenty three, after seeing 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:23.040 an ABC News poll that showed really scary numbers for 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:26.440 president by to try to persuade the incommon president to 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:27.240 step aside. 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:30.519 And I mean, I'm leaping ahead here, but the rest 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:31.160 is history. 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:35.160 No one thought this quick sonic idea he had would 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:35.760 ever work. 0:03:36.200 --> 0:03:40.360 I did. I thought, so, oh really O good? Oh yeah, 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:42.880 I did, and I knew it was going to happen. 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:46.800 Why did I know. I'm not involved in any personal 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:50.360 personal way other than observing, but boy, I knew he 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:51.280 had to drop out. 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:54.520 Well, the pressure and I'll let you and speak to this, 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:57.920 because it was really on him. The pressure for him 0:03:57.960 --> 0:03:59.640 to shut up about. 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:00.920 This was enormous. 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:03.960 And even I was getting texts from powerful democrats and 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:06.800 donors saying, you're with James Carblobat, tell him to be 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:11.680 quiet because there was a collective ostriches with heads in the. 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:15.200 Sand thing happening, if you recall. But James was really 0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:17.200 feeling to keep because he was the one out on 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:17.640 the limb. 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:21.760 But I also kind of thought that George Clooney had 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:22.760 something to do with it. 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:24.919 Did he work with you people? 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:27.719 Did George Cooney work with you at all? James on 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:28.600 that decision? 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:32.920 No? Both, No one did. And George wrote about Ed Peach. 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:35.680 I was thinking early July. I don't think he was 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:41.320 probably there before, but people, I think have an impression 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:45.840 made it. I'm more at Hoka impulsive, and before I 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:48.680 did this, I really thought about it and thought about 0:04:48.680 --> 0:04:50.839 it deeply, talked to a lot of different people, and 0:04:51.480 --> 0:04:54.120 I've been at it for almost two years. 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:57.000 I wish, and we all look in hindsight, I wish 0:04:57.080 --> 0:05:01.080 that we could have done that before a couple of 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:03.680 months before an election. It would have been it would 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:07.680 have been so much fairer to the new opponents, wouldn't 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:08.200 it have been. 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:10.920 I wasn't surprised about any of it. I wasn't even 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:13.400 mad about any of it. I knew this is gonna happen. 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:15.440 But I felt it in my bones, or you felt 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:19.440 in your bones. There were other people that did also. 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:21.760 I mean, it wasn't like I was some Cassandra and 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:25.680 it was the only person thinking this, but there were 0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:29.320 way too few. And the people that came aboard may 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:31.640 because you know, we could argue with this late or not, 0:05:31.720 --> 0:05:34.640 but right now, for thirteen days to go, who cares. 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:37.440 I mean, we're just where we are. And I really 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:40.200 am a kind of person that lives in the present. 0:05:41.360 --> 0:05:47.760 Because the philosopher one said the past, we know the present, 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:53.080 But I sure I just live in the president right now. 0:05:53.080 --> 0:05:55.279 The president is we got to figure a way the 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:57.240 complish thing together and save the country. 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:00.360 Well, you're so eloquent about all of this, and what 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:04.000 was it like to see your life as observed by 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:07.200 Matt and his collaborators in this new film. 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:10.560 I'm supposed to say, all sharks, I'm just a Cajun boy, 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:14.560 you know, a poor time. But it was actually quite flattering, 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:19.279 and I hope that the message that people take from this, 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:22.839 and particularly young people, is that, hey, this is not 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:26.640 a profession that people go around wearing Hairsharks actually had 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:29.279 a good time. They laughed a lot, they were happy 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:32.320 a lot. They you know, slapped each other's back, they 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:35.560 high five, they did all of the other things. And 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:40.960 if we keep demeaning the profession of politics, we're going 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:44.520 to continue to have not very good people decide to 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:47.960 pursue this as a career choice. And I think that's unfortunate. 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:52.560 I think that if we are honest about politics, yes, 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:55.640 it's like any other business. It's got ups and downs 0:06:55.680 --> 0:06:57.360 and good people and bad people, but in the whole, 0:06:57.400 --> 0:06:59.920 it's an old business. And I do think that kind 0:06:59.920 --> 0:07:02.920 of came through in the documentary. But that I'm great. 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:04.840 Are there parts you don't agree with? 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:07.920 Well, I I kind of agree with Bernie Sanders called 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:10.400 me a political hack. I don't agree with John Fetterman 0:07:10.560 --> 0:07:13.440 that should shut the cup, but that his request. But 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:18.920 you know, it's not I could go through and Matt 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:21.280 will tell I didn't watch it, Mary and I didn't 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:23.920 watch it, till tell you right, because I just felt 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:26.280 I feel like, if you have a creative you know, 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:29.160 if you're cooking a dish and you're sitting the table, 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:31.640 you know what you're doing. You don't need somebody looking 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:34.720 over your shoulder. You're you know, doing a telling people 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:38.000 how to arrange flowers and tell people how you greet people. 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:41.440 I mean, that's what you do better than anybody that's 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:46.280 ever lived. And we had Mary and I had a 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:48.440 lot of confidence in back. We had a lot of 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:53.160 confidence in his storytelling ability. And you know it was 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:56.160 it had some like anybody else has had a life. 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:58.320 I've had some rough spots and things I wish I 0:07:58.320 --> 0:08:00.000 could take back and come of course kind of gitting 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:04.360 husband to take the truth. But on the whole, I 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:09.560 think it was a portrait of a life in politics, 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:12.440 and to the extent that people see it and want 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:14.080 to get into politics, I encourageable. 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:16.200 So he got a lot right in your mind, that's 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:19.400 that's wonderful. How did Matt convince you to let him 0:08:19.440 --> 0:08:21.760 tell your story? Was it or was it the other 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:22.440 way around. 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:25.480 It was some friends of the origins of it were 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:28.360 some friends of mine and they went to Matt he 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:30.960 can take the story. They asked him to recommend a director, 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:33.520 and he said, yes me. So it's always good if 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:35.560 you got something that's going to do a project about you, 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:37.800 you'd rather there somebody do it that's enthusiastic of U. 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:39.319 I said, well, I don't have any work right now. 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:44.360 My schedule is vacant for the next fourteen months. You're 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:47.120 not going to get the same product, all right, And 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:51.079 he didn't say I got several things going on. I'm 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:54.120 going to try to jam this thing through and you know, 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:55.959 work over time. He said, I want to do it. 0:08:56.520 --> 0:08:59.360 And that's the you know, that's the most important thing 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:03.000 that you're doing anything, is to have somebody do something 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:04.880 that they want to do, as opposed to talking them 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:05.520 into doing. 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:09.520 How long did it actually take from start to finish 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:11.120 for you, James. 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:13.920 I'd have to go back get the timeline. It was 0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:17.000 Susan mque who was Ferry read Sheep as the f 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:19.640 when she was thirty years old. It was a post pandemic. 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:22.680 It had to have been like late twenty one or 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:25.760 early twenty two. Said, I was a student at Rutgers 0:09:25.800 --> 0:09:28.240 and I saw this and it motivated me. The moilroom, 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:32.240 the nineteen ninety three film motivated her, and she said, 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:34.959 we should make another film about you to motivate other 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:36.960 young people. And I thought it was kind of flattering, 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:39.320 and you know, kind of mos Yeah, that's a great idea, 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:41.800 and I didn't think any more about it. And the 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:45.240 next thing, you know, she'd call Matt. She'd called some 0:09:45.760 --> 0:09:48.040 big fundraisers and she said, we got to go meet 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:50.520 with these people. I'm raising money for the movie, and 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:54.120 we got a director, and you know, I just I 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:56.760 didn't I don't know if I ever, Like most things 0:09:56.840 --> 0:09:59.280 in my life, some strong woman made a decision for 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:01.040 me and I just went along with it. If it 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:05.520 was my mother and my sister, my wife, you know, somebody, 0:10:05.640 --> 0:10:08.200 a couple of more than two people have come in 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:10.360 it that they've washed it with their wife, and they said, 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:15.200 people think it has real strong feminist undertopes. So really, 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:18.000 I don't know if there was ever a point just 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:20.640 one strong woman said we're doing this, and the next thing, 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:22.679 you know, I was doing it. 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:26.440 That's good, Matt. The action of the film covers the 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:29.920 history of Carville's career with a focus on the current 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:33.840 presidential campaign. How did you decide what the arc of 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:37.040 your story would be? Is it the timing because it's 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:39.880 so close to a new an election, a very very 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:41.160 very important election. 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:42.840 It kind of changed. 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:46.080 We worked on it for two and a half years. 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:48.559 I'd say these things sometimes take a year to add it. 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:51.720 It's seen him a very tee for the most part, 0:10:51.800 --> 0:10:55.000 which is I think the highest form of documentary filmmaking, 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:57.439 you know, following someone being a fly on the wall. 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:01.200 But I think any director who starts at Verite Film 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:03.640 and tells you that they know how it's going to end, 0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:05.959 he is lying to you. I mean, that's actually the 0:11:06.080 --> 0:11:09.840 joy of the process. It's a little like the journalistic process, 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:13.480 where you might have a conception about where you're going. 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:15.520 And I told you a bit about what I thought 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:18.680 I was doing at the outset of the podcast. But 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:24.040 when James began to show what kind of political muscle 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:29.040 and influence he has in real time by getting on 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:32.720 his platforms. He has a podcast himself, He's welcome on 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:37.000 MSNBC and CNBC at will, He's quoted in all the 0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:40.400 major political follows. This is a guy with really important platforms. 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:43.320 But he's also someone and this we started doing from 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:46.280 the outset, who works the phones every morning with the 0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:48.240 same group of people since the nineties. 0:11:48.320 --> 0:11:51.400 It's extraordinary. It's like a hidden political think tank. Really. 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:55.319 So we're talking about George Stephanopoulos, Paul mcgalla, and Grenwald 0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:58.520 who was the media consultant for Clinton and illustrious career 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:01.760 ever since. Thence Dan Greenberg, the launted Polster to the 0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:04.040 Blue and Fall, Rob Emanuel. 0:12:04.440 --> 0:12:06.800 This is a phone chain and a phone tree. 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:09.520 I guess that has been going on for more than 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:11.880 thirty years, and they're all are the most informed people 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:15.080 about politics. And James gathers information like the kind of 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:20.200 central intelligence sort of political, not spy, but sort of 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:25.079 you know, like intelligence master. And he's not just a 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:29.440 TV talking head. He pushes political strategies out that he 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:32.640 has considered very carefully, and you see him in process 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:36.040 doing that in the film. And actually, you know, you mentioned, 0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:37.839 Martha that I did a couple of profiles of you 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:39.760 and one of the things that fascinated me about you 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:44.120 was that you're all about process and you explain process, 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:44.880 and I like to. 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:46.320 Do that in my film. So I thought I'm going 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:49.120 to show how this guy does it because he's a. 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:52.040 Master of the craft, and too for the person who's 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:54.200 interested in politics and wants to know how it works. 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:56.120 That you're seeing it here in the film as we 0:12:56.200 --> 0:12:59.880 cover James doing that then leaving ahead, he sees this 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:04.040 whole and he sees the future. He sees around the corner, 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:08.680 he sees that Biden's numbers are terrible and probably insurmountable, 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:12.319 and then he uses the platforms to push an agenda, 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:16.560 and you see him become, in my opinion, the elder 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:19.559 statesman of the Democratic Party. He's not elected to anything. 0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:22.600 He's not a Washington lawyer like Bob Strauss and Riven Jeordan. 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:25.400 He's not a lobbyist. He's James Carvill. So he uses 0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:31.319 his fame and his intelligence and his persuasiveness to change 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:34.320 the world. And for a filmmaker, if you have that 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:37.480 happening live in front of your cameras, that's lightning the bomb. 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:50.360 Well, James, I've always enjoyed listening to you and to 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:53.560 hear your opinion about current events and what's going on 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:57.280 in politics. Did you ever consider going into politics yourself? 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:02.400 No, ma'am, I wouldn't that. Well, Okay, it wouldn't. It 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:05.360 would not be a very pretty picture. And you know, 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:08.559 some things about I have two daughters, one twenty nine 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:12.000 and uh one twenty six, and there are things about 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:16.000 their dad's life would as soon leaving the dust bit 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:18.600 of history. And one thing when you get into politics. 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:21.720 But I was a very late bloom. I didn't win 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:26.400 my first campaign. I was in my forties, so and 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:29.680 I never wanted to be I actually was thinking about this, 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:34.560 Martha was actually watching a movie and watching the part 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:37.760 about Carville. I actually grew up to be the person 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:40.520 that I really wanted to be, and not many people 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:44.800 get to do that. Yeah, all right, whatever dreams I 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:48.240 had is sitting on the levee, you know, throwing rocks 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:52.120 in the river, whatever idle fourteen year old boys did. 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:57.200 I actually ended up leading the life I dreamed of, 0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:01.040 which is and that's a pretty remark alcable thing to 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:03.480 say as you approach eightieth birthday. But I got to 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:06.640 be the person I wanted to be, and I never 0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:11.880 envisioned myself. You know, every supposedly Louisiana, every boy grows 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:14.200 up wanting to be governor. I mean that's you know, 0:15:15.200 --> 0:15:18.120 Russell Longs I was thirty years in the Senate, and 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:21.440 he just always wanted to be governor, but circumstances didn't 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:24.440 provide way he could. I never wanted to be governor, 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:28.440 but I did dream of being the guy behind the governor, 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:31.960 or the friend of the governor's or whatever it was. 0:15:32.600 --> 0:15:35.440 It turned out very that's the most fortunate thing. 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:38.160 You can say, well, with your analytical mind and your 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:41.200 and your perspicacity, if you want to use that word, 0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:43.600 you really have done what you set out to do. 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:46.600 And I applaud that, and I think that I like, 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:49.680 I like hearing that because as I have already reached 0:15:49.720 --> 0:15:51.000 the eighty eighty year. 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:52.480 Mark, I up there. 0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:56.920 I feel I feel like I'm reaching more of my 0:15:56.920 --> 0:16:00.400 my potential now too, and it's it's good. It's really 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:03.400 a good feeling. But when you look back, I have 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:06.120 so many questions for you that are not in my script, 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:09.880 and Heather's Heather, my producer is going to start cringing 0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:12.560 over there. I just thought it would be kind of 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:14.880 interesting just to ask you just a couple of questions 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:17.480 that have bothered me that are not really covered in 0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:21.480 the in the documentary, but your opinion of Obama and 0:16:21.480 --> 0:16:23.960 his presidency. 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:28.600 Obviously it was enormously historic. Feather Obama have something that 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:33.560 is rare in a politician. He pretty gagged impression he 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:37.920 didn't much like politics. That it was like somebody that 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:41.920 wanted to have children but didn't like sex. Okay, I mean, 0:16:43.240 --> 0:16:47.160 and I mean that in a very respectful way, that 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:55.040 President Clinton loved relish politics and relish being there. President Obama. Gay, 0:16:55.280 --> 0:16:58.120 I'm not going to a critique at all. I think 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:03.160 he governed the country exceedingly well. He was good at it. Okay, 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:05.679 but you don't. You didn't You didn't have that that 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:09.720 what do we call him? These other Okay, he didn't 0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:11.520 have that about. 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:16.160 Well Clinton Clinton, I totally agree with you. He loved politics, 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:17.800 He loved loved his job. 0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:20.760 People would complaining about Clinton. I said, what pissed you 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:23.040 off the peace of the prosperity, because that really got 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:25.040 under your skin, was that that you were making money, 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:26.080 you weren't getting shot at. 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:29.399 No, that none of that bothered me. 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:34.719 What I have come to learn is most good politicians, 0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:39.040 or I'd say no, both great politicians really try hard. 0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:42.320 But you never see him sweat. You never saw Reagan sweat, 0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:45.560 You never saw Clinton sweat. You never saw Obama sweat. 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:47.680 They were really you. 0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:49.560 Know, Trump is sweating a lot, by the. 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:56.119 Way, that's all he does, sweating. But you know, stink, sweat, stink, 0:17:56.800 --> 0:17:59.879 that's what he is, you know. But the classic exam 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:03.840 Bobby Jenda was the man who tried too hard. He 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:07.560 just had to. They give you the impression to something said. 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:10.960 Although I think he was a great man, was write 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:13.520 about more things than by my life. Al Gore always 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:17.199 gave you the impression that he was really trying. I 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:19.719 used to say that Bill Clinton could look better missing 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:22.600 a free throat than Al Gore can look making a 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:26.399 free throw. And just some people, and it's kind of 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:29.800 one of the marks of great politicians. They trying hard. 0:18:30.160 --> 0:18:33.199 They're competitive to the core, but they never let you 0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:36.119 know that. And that's not an easy thing to do 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:36.680 in life. 0:18:36.920 --> 0:18:40.040 Well, let's let's keep on with the documentary. First, Can 0:18:40.080 --> 0:18:42.639 you both talk about what it took to build the 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:46.880 trust in each other to let this story come out 0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:47.920 so beautifully? 0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:52.399 Okay, Well, I'm pretty good at this after doing him 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:54.320 for so many years. 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:56.720 I mean, in Vanity Fair. 0:18:56.600 --> 0:19:00.360 I wrote long form profiles. You spend weeks and weeks 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:02.399 and weeks of people. It was a great training ground 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:04.800 for this, and I think the stories I wrote at 0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:08.520 Vani Fair were almost like paper documentaries that were very observational. 0:19:09.240 --> 0:19:12.200 They included process, Like I said, I love writing about 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:14.840 you because I had to spend time with you and 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:15.960 see your process. 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:19.240 And did James Carvill know? Does he know what what 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:21.320 happened as a result of that profile? 0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:22.560 Well? I did too. 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:28.760 The first was uneventful. The second I'll leave it to 0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:29.280 you Martha. 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:34.399 Yeah, so James. After the second profile, when when Matt 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:37.320 reported that I took a walk from my house down 0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:40.560 to my stable to look at my horses, the parole 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:44.800 officer gave me another five months of home confinement because 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:48.199 I went outside the perimeter of my home on my 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:49.040 own property. 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:52.919 You know, our can address the restaurant in your Orleans. 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:55.679 We had a party at a one of one of 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:57.960 my best friends, one of our dollars to the film, 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:02.280 who was a victim, and personally they decided that they 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:05.119 were going to pursue it. And I saw it happened 0:20:05.200 --> 0:20:08.439 because of Clinton. People have to understand it. We have 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:12.360 a government that sometimes can get way ahead of itself 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:15.920 and way too enthusiastic about things. And I think that, 0:20:15.960 --> 0:20:18.439 but you fat you clearly fall into today. 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:22.000 But that parole officer reading van is the most He 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:25.840 was the most unread person on earth. Somebody gave him 0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:26.479 that article. 0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:29.879 I used to I used to teach my students. The 0:20:29.960 --> 0:20:32.159 one thing you never do in life is argue with 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:35.560 minor power. You better off arguin with a federal judge 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:39.720 and your parole officer. Okay, if you don't ever argue 0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:42.840 with the immigration and Customs guy, Okay, because you do, 0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:45.399 you can. You can tell a sentence that you know, 0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:48.080 go f yourself and that's going to be fine. But 0:20:48.080 --> 0:20:50.760 but always don't argue mind power, but don't want to 0:20:50.760 --> 0:20:54.480 go back to the movie. One of the things that 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:58.479 sold me on Matt from beginning is he had been 0:20:58.520 --> 0:21:01.800 around politics. He was actually like a driver in the 0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:07.119 eighty four Mondale campaign, he was like Susan Estrich's administrative 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:10.160 persists or whatever you call it. In the nineteen eighty 0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:14.600 eight Do Coccus campaign, he profiled any number of people 0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:19.000 in politics. So if you're doing something like this, it's 0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:24.000 important as a director understand at more than a rudimentary 0:21:24.080 --> 0:21:28.840 level of what this is and what it entails, because 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:31.879 if you just have a voyeur come out of an 0:21:33.160 --> 0:21:37.679