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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some.

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Speaker 2: Of today's best minds.

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Speaker 1: And now in Kentucky there's a new law that says

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Speaker 1: you can't say puber day. We have such an interesting

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Speaker 1: show today, Media Matters CEO Angelo Karrasona stops by to

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Speaker 1: talk about the implications of this Fox News settlement with Dominion.

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Speaker 1: Then we'll talk to Jeff Charlotte about his latest book,

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Speaker 1: The Undertow, Scenes from a Slow Civil War, about the

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Speaker 1: real threats of creeping fascism. But first we have the

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Speaker 1: host of the Time of Monsters, the nation's g tire.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Fast Politics, fand favorite git here.

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Speaker 3: I'm here ready to serve.

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Speaker 4: So here we are.

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Speaker 1: We are at the end of the Desanta's news cycle,

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Speaker 1: or perhaps we are at the beginning. I want to

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Speaker 1: talk to you since you are in can A where

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Speaker 1: life continue is still sort of sane, right.

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Speaker 3: A little bit, Yeah, yeah, I want to talk to.

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Speaker 1: You about DeSantis quickly, because I think the top one

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Speaker 1: on this is if you come for the mouse, you

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Speaker 1: best not miss.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean for me, like you know, Disney versus

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Speaker 3: Disantas is let them fight bit of business. One interesting

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Speaker 3: thing I saw was that a lot of Florida Republicans

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Speaker 3: are kind of mad at Dissantas because he's kind of

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Speaker 3: like turning the entire state into a launching pad and

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Speaker 3: making all state politics about stuff that will get him

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Speaker 3: national prominence.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: I don't think the Florida Republicans like that's high on

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Speaker 3: their agenda, like getting into a fight with Disney, you know,

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Speaker 3: which is a major employer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, their largest employer. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: The whole thing seems like very bizarre, except that, I mean,

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Speaker 3: I think the real story here is the sort of

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Speaker 3: poverty of Republican politics that like a friend of mine

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Speaker 3: who had been reading The Sentences campaign autobiography, which apparently

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Speaker 3: has this line like, you know, like make America Florida,

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Speaker 3: which is that's like a month less good version of

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Speaker 3: makeup record great, make America greatest you know you did

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Speaker 3: with great again is a catchy slogan. This is just

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Speaker 3: makes no sense. But having said that, there is apparently

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Speaker 3: like no economics in the book or hardly any you know,

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Speaker 3: except for woke corporations so called and so like, I

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Speaker 3: think it does sort of speak to a sort of

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Speaker 3: poverty of agenda, which we see in other areas as well.

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Speaker 3: I mean a lot of it, you know, the focus

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Speaker 3: on social issues, but like what what social issues? Like

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Speaker 3: all this stuff about like trans athletes, you know, like

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Speaker 3: you're talking about in the Kansas school system where they

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Speaker 3: recently passed a law against us. You know, you apparently

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Speaker 3: had like three trans kids that would have been in

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Speaker 3: programs except to them are like seniors. So even though

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Speaker 3: the lot is a them, you know, it applied to

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Speaker 3: like one student out of a school system that has

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Speaker 3: more than one hundred thousand people. So it just like

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Speaker 3: this desire to have like politics that like you know,

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Speaker 3: gets you media attention, riles up the base, but actually,

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Speaker 3: like it's so far removed from reality and from daily

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Speaker 3: life of ordinary people, even of ordinary conservative people, Like

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Speaker 3: I can't imagine the number of people that like wake

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Speaker 3: up every morning like I freakin hate Disney. Yeah, I

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Speaker 3: really don't want that trans girl to be like competing

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Speaker 3: in my school races. To me, it seems it speaks

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Speaker 3: to poverty of politics. I mean, I think this is

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Speaker 3: like Trump's kind of advantage over Dysantis, that Trump is

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Speaker 3: more willing, especially in twenty sixteen. But even now to

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Speaker 3: actually like throw in like meat and potato issues to

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Speaker 3: like try to reach a broader base. I mean, like,

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Speaker 3: you know, I think a lot of liberals underestimate the

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Speaker 3: fact that in twenty sixteen, Trump was the only Republican

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Speaker 3: who's gone on stage says I'm not going to touch

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Speaker 3: Medicare and Social Security. Now he's lying, right.

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Speaker 2: Right, of course, I would hope.

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Speaker 3: He said that. And he talked about you know, like

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Speaker 3: redoing NAF done, and you know, he was offering something

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Speaker 3: that someone who's not not a totally Fox News poisoned

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Speaker 3: brain can like think is important. And this is true

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Speaker 3: this year as well. Like if you look at Trump's

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Speaker 3: ad against the Santas, which is a great ad, I

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Speaker 3: gotta you know, you got to give the devil his due.

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Speaker 3: Putting figures is very memorable. It's like Linda Johnson's ad

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Speaker 3: against Fairy Goldwater with the girl counting off and the

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Speaker 3: nuclear explosion and then the atomic bomb. It's like something,

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Speaker 3: you know, you remember that ad and you're gonna remember,

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Speaker 3: you know, the the nasty pudding figures. But what's also

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Speaker 3: interesting is what is actually the voiceover where Trump says,

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Speaker 3: you know, like he can't keep his hand off not

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Speaker 3: just putting, but also Medicare and Social Security. And again

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Speaker 3: this is something like if you're like, you know a

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Speaker 3: lot of Republicans see the voter base exkews elderly, if

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Speaker 3: you're gonna have a choice between some guy who's like

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Speaker 3: going after Disney and some guy who's saying I won't

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Speaker 3: touch your Medicare and Social Security, well, you know, like

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Speaker 3: one is speaking to real stuff and one isn't right.

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Speaker 1: The line you just said was the poverty of the

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Speaker 1: Republican agenda.

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Speaker 3: I mean, they do have an agenda, but they can't

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Speaker 3: talk about it. Like they actually do want to cut

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Speaker 3: Medicare and so security, but.

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Speaker 2: It's wildly unpopular. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I think that's what is the fuel for this focus

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Speaker 3: on Disney and really evil, vicious attacks on trans people.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a really good point about this idea

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Speaker 1: that they really do have an agenda, it's not popular

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Speaker 1: and it's it's what no one wants. I mean, that's

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Speaker 1: like I think about Rick Scott in Florida and that

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Speaker 1: one time he was like, no, we really do want

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Speaker 1: to cut Medicare and Medicaid and you know, put poor

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Speaker 1: people on the street.

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Speaker 2: No, that's our plan, and everyone's like.

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Speaker 3: Shh, yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, And you know, I

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Speaker 3: don't know. I mean I don't want to get into

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Speaker 3: the prediction game, like you know, like Trump is very old.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe he'll die, that's what all the Republicans want

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Speaker 2: him to die.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you read these pieces. We're hoping for the

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Speaker 1: actual aerial tables. I mean, how do you become this

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Speaker 1: kind of coward?

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Speaker 3: Honestly, I think that's a fool's hope as well as

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Speaker 3: we're thinking about, you know, the biggest predicator of long life,

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Speaker 3: it was wealth and the how long your parents live? Right,

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Speaker 3: Trump's parents like they had long lost their mind, but

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Speaker 3: they're living in their nineties.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Trump's father, I believe, died in ninety three. I think

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Speaker 3: Trump losing his marbles would not unfortunately.

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Speaker 2: Right, I have anything, it would help.

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Speaker 1: There was a reporter for NBC News who was talking about,

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Speaker 1: there's no guarantee that this doesn't just keep going.

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Speaker 3: That's why I believe you can correct me if I'm wrong.

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Speaker 3: Was that Benji sa Sarlin?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, And.

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Speaker 3: I think he made the very good point which I

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Speaker 3: had also thought, like like forget about Trump twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 2: Right, start worrying about twenty twenty eight.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, from twenty thirty two, like you know,

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Speaker 3: like if you actually do the math of how long

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Speaker 3: people and his family live, this could be like we're

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Speaker 3: just in the beginning of Trump's political career, right, and

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Speaker 3: Trump is playing a little bit of the actuurial thing

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Speaker 3: as well. He's basically he I needs a recent message

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Speaker 3: to the Santas. He says. You know, you're a young man,

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Speaker 3: you know, like you can right, yeah, it doesn't have

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Speaker 3: to be twenty twenty eight, even you can run in

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Speaker 3: twenty thirty two, you know, like the Santists. Even though

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Speaker 3: he looks as old as Trump, he's actually in his forties.

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Speaker 1: Right, he is our age. Yeah, yeah, I mean it

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Speaker 1: is incredible. I wanted to talk to you about the

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Speaker 1: Fox settlement, the sound of a thousand journalists, the sighing

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Speaker 1: that they want to spend six weeks in Delaware where

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Speaker 1: everything is closed on both Sundays and Mondays discuss No,

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Speaker 1: I want to ask you in my mind and again

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Speaker 1: I'm coming to you, But in my mind, the top

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Speaker 1: line here is that things like lawsuits will not save

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Speaker 1: democracy from disinformation.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I think that's right. I know. I'm glad

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Speaker 3: that the lawsuit happened. I'm glad that they're getting their money.

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Speaker 3: I'm glad we haven't seen I guess the apology or

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Speaker 3: there is probably some sort of agreement as to what

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Speaker 3: Fox will have to say. But defamation suits are for

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Speaker 3: a particular purpose, and their particular purpose is not necessarily

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Speaker 3: to establish the total truth of a situation. It's to

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Speaker 3: give people of an injured redress. And yeah, I mean

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Speaker 3: it's a proader thing which I sort of have rittened

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Speaker 3: about and tweeting about a little bit, which is I

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Speaker 3: do think liberals would need to understand that you can't

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Speaker 3: use prosecutors in the courts to do the work of politics. Now,

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Speaker 3: am I glad that Trump was arrested, Yes, I am.

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Speaker 3: I'm very glad. But actually, if you look at all

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Speaker 3: the polling, his support in the Republican Party went up,

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Speaker 3: and then maybe in the general it'll hurt him, but

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Speaker 3: it's no substitute for politics, lastly, having to create a

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Speaker 3: coalition that can defeat Trump again. And I think the

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Speaker 3: same thing applies to Fox. And what I'm a bit

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Speaker 3: sad about is that there's no policy discussions, because everything

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Speaker 3: that Fox is is a creation of specific political choices

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Speaker 3: that were made. And it could be that we're too

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Speaker 3: far gone that you know, like you know, like hell

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Speaker 3: is Truth seemed too late. But back in the seventies

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Speaker 3: and eighties, when Rupert Warnock first came to the United States,

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Speaker 3: there was actually a lot of controversy should we allow

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Speaker 3: this Australian maniac has a long history of like publishing

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Speaker 3: dishonestabloids like a foothold in American politics, and there was

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Speaker 3: like if you go back, there's actually like you know,

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Speaker 3: like at every stage, you know, when he brought the

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Speaker 3: New York Post later, you know, when he bought tried

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Speaker 3: to start a cable news network, there were people saying, like,

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Speaker 3: you know, like do we want to allow this? And

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Speaker 3: unfortunately they allowed it, right Like there was his a

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Speaker 3: year of deregulation. But there has any kind of political

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Speaker 3: answer or political response to this. And I don't think

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Speaker 3: we're gonna get the fairness doctrine back or any of

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Speaker 3: the things that like prevented Fox from existing in the

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Speaker 3: you know, sixties and seventies. But I think that one

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Speaker 3: could delegitimize Fox much more than has been done and

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Speaker 3: not treat it as a news thing. And I think

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Speaker 3: you're seeing it only exists in the form of jokes,

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Speaker 3: like you see people on CNN chortling like Fox is

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Speaker 3: like complaining about their reputation or whatever. But I actually think,

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Speaker 3: you know, it should be a top line thing, like

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Speaker 3: this is a dishonest propaganda network. This is something that

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Speaker 3: democrats should be saying, but not just democrats. I think,

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Speaker 3: like you know, even media people consist themselves non parties,

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Speaker 3: and like I would like to see it treated as

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Speaker 3: a normal thing on the New York Times and on

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Speaker 3: CNN that you know, this is reported from Fox, which

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Speaker 3: we know is a dishonest propaganda network, And anytime anyone

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Speaker 3: mentions or discusses Fox, that should be like how it's characterized,

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Speaker 3: that should be its epithet. And I think we see

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Speaker 3: some of that in how the Press Secretary has been

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Speaker 3: treating Fox at press conferences. And unfortunately a lot of

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Speaker 3: journalists like they tend to stick up for Boxing, like, well, no,

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Speaker 3: we're part of a they're part of the journalistic community.

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Speaker 3: I have to say, like we have to say, like, no,

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Speaker 3: they are not part of the journalistic community. There's no

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Speaker 3: reason to take them any more seriously than to say,

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Speaker 3: you know, the National Inquirer, you know, which is also

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Speaker 3: in bed with TROUBM. I honestly think the political work

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Speaker 3: that needs to be done is to like really hammer

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Speaker 3: in that this is a dishonest network and a propaganda outlet.

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Speaker 1: Yeah no, I mean again, this is the fundamental problem here, right,

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Speaker 1: which is you have a problem with the company. You

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Speaker 1: hope that a capitalist thing like and I'm not anti

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Speaker 1: capitalist by any search. The imagination, but the idea of

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Speaker 1: a defamation suit is ultimately, these people defamed my business

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Speaker 1: and so I'm going to get them for the money

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Speaker 1: they owe me, which is exactly what it's supposed to be.

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Speaker 1: But the I think the wish casting on all of

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Speaker 1: our parts, or at least on mind too, was that

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Speaker 1: from this there would be you know, a reckoning on

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Speaker 1: Fox News. And that's not how any of this is

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Speaker 1: going to work.

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Speaker 3: That's house that's going to work. Although I do think

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Speaker 3: that the discovery process and all the things that have

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Speaker 3: come out have given valuable ammunition R that you know,

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Speaker 3: should be used against Fox and like people you know

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Speaker 3: are talking about it. But I honestly like want this

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Speaker 3: to be like the kind of constant refrain whenever Fox

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Speaker 3: has mentioned that, you know, like they it should not

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Speaker 3: be seen as a journalistic entity. It is something else.

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Speaker 3: It is a propaganda network. There's other work to be

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Speaker 3: done in terms of creating alternative networks and like, but

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Speaker 3: I mean, like we have to think of this as

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Speaker 3: a political project and not see like the courts as

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Speaker 3: a solution to this. I just I don't think the

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Speaker 3: courts can can satisfy that that's not what they set

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Speaker 3: up for do. And in some ways, like I think

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Speaker 3: it hurts you politically, like if that's where your hope is, right,

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Speaker 3: because like if it prevents you from thinking about like organizing.

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Speaker 1: Right and the larger issues now, I want to get

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Speaker 1: back to sort of what we're doing on this earth

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Speaker 1: here and Democrats trying desperately to write the judiciary as

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Speaker 1: much as possible. One of the largest issues now for

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Speaker 1: Democrats is a Democratic senator. Yes, there's no plans on returning.

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Speaker 1: Let's game this out for a minute here we have

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Speaker 1: Diane Feinstein wrote a piece about this this week, eighty

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Speaker 1: nine years old. Case of shingles. Not sure when she's

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Speaker 1: going to return. Talk to me about what you see

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Speaker 1: happening here?

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Speaker 3: Well, unfortunately, I don't think that there's any good kind

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Speaker 3: of scenarios. Like obviously the move to like, you know,

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Speaker 3: just get her temporarily out of the judiciary and appoint

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Speaker 3: someone else. The Republican is not going to allow.

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Speaker 2: That, right Smartly, there's a lot.

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Speaker 3: Of people calling for her to resign.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: I also would kind of join just but not for

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Speaker 3: the Judiciary comuraitty because but just because I think California,

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Speaker 3: you know, is a state at you know, the biggest state,

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Speaker 3: forty million people. They deserve representation. Yeah, there are people

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Speaker 3: on her staff apparently who are telling reporters they don't

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Speaker 3: know if she can ever return to DC. Right on

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Speaker 3: the judiciary stuff, Like here's what can happen, Like, Okay,

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Speaker 3: she resigns, a news senator is appointed, goes to d C,

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Speaker 3: and then Schumer can try to put them on the

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Speaker 3: Judiciary Committee. But again, you need Republican approval, which normally

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Speaker 3: you would get. But I don't know if the Republicans

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Speaker 3: might actually just say no, like because the judges are

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Speaker 3: so important. This is like, unfortunately, because we got a

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Speaker 3: situation where Congress can't do anything. Judges are where power

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Speaker 3: lies in America, and if they do that, then you're

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Speaker 3: gonna have a tit for tap. Because the one reason

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Speaker 3: you can think you have some leverage is that Republicans

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Speaker 3: also have old senators, you know senators, and you know,

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Speaker 3: like in the next two years or next four years,

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Speaker 3: easy to imagine them in the same seat. But they

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Speaker 3: might just think, like, you know, no, no judges are

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Speaker 3: so important, we don't care if they don't like return

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Speaker 3: the favor for us, Like, and so you're gonna actually

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Speaker 3: have not just the Judiciary Committee, but the Senate as

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Speaker 3: a whole is going to be paralyzed, right, Like this

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Speaker 3: is actually going to lead to further dysfunction. It's a

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Speaker 3: kind of grim scenario. And that's why, you know, like

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Speaker 3: I think the people there are people who been calling

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Speaker 3: for Diane Feinstein to resign for a long time, and

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Speaker 3: I think, you know, they're kind of been vindicated. Like

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Speaker 3: I think this is something that was kind of foreseeable unfortunately,

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Speaker 3: and I think we're in a kind of very grim situation.

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Speaker 3: The only thing I can maybe say is maybe it's

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Speaker 3: good to have that clarity, like once you get a

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Speaker 3: situation where the Senate is wholly paralyzed, and then you

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Speaker 3: can take that to the next selection and tell people

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Speaker 3: that you know, Republicans care about judges. They care about

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Speaker 3: judges because they want to end abortion and this is

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Speaker 3: like where they have the power, and like, you know,

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Speaker 3: like make that an issue in like every state because

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Speaker 3: I think this hurts them. And again, this is the

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Speaker 3: political solution. If one could have a time machine, the

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Speaker 3: better political solution would have been to the Democrats to think, like,

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Speaker 3: are we a political party that's interested in power and

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Speaker 3: in like doing things, or are we a job agency

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Speaker 3: for the super annuated.

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Speaker 1: The thing that I have been struck by, which I've

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Speaker 1: really been disappointed by, is some of the Democrats, like

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Speaker 1: people like Pierceton Jilibran from the state of New York,

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Speaker 1: my senator who was very vocal about al Frankin resigning,

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Speaker 1: has been very vocal that it's not fair to ask

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Speaker 1: eighty nine year old Diane Feinstein to resign even though

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Speaker 1: she has no plans of coming back and she's retiring

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Speaker 1: at the end of her term, because it's sexism and

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Speaker 1: we're in a very fucking sexist country. Our bodily rights

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Speaker 1: are being stripped away from us. It's a terrible, very

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Speaker 1: fucked up time to be a woman. To raise a daughter.

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Speaker 1: Asking an eighty nine year old for whom there have

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Speaker 1: been whispers of cognitive ability questions for the last five

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Speaker 1: to ten years to resign is not sexist.

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Speaker 2: You're welcome.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, no, no, I would just add to that, like,

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Speaker 3: like you know, like if we think about you know,

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Speaker 3: there's a way with gerontocracy and feminism, we are also

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Speaker 3: at odds with each other because like if she goes,

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Speaker 3: you know, like she's going to be replaced by you know,

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Speaker 3: someone like Barbara Lee or for her. Yeah, exactly. And

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Speaker 3: it's always like you know, like younger women are not

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Speaker 3: going to be able, not fartily able to you know,

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Speaker 3: make their way up as one season. In other countries,

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Speaker 3: you know, like you have like thirty year old women

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Speaker 3: who are like leaders of big countries. Because in America

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Speaker 3: you have this crazy gerontocracy. Now, I mean, you know,

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Speaker 3: all fairness, that gerontocracy is not just DYNINGE. Feinstein issue.

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Speaker 3: It's a larger issue, and it's a structural issue because

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Speaker 3: you have seniority, like you actually like have a system

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Speaker 3: of rewards keeping senators in as long as power as

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Speaker 3: you know, I just think, you know, it's just uh,

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think these are like bigger issues. But

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Speaker 3: right now, I actually I'm a lot more pressimistic than

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Speaker 3: a lot of people are. Just I do actually think

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Speaker 3: that if she does resign, which she should, and California

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Speaker 3: gets a proper you know, senator who can serve, you

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Speaker 3: could still have the Judiciary Committee not functioning or functioning

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Speaker 3: in a way that serves Democrats. I just actually Republicans

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Speaker 3: are so dependent on the judges they might actually, you know,

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Speaker 3: like do something that is otherwise completely nuts and completely

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Speaker 3: like an escalation of polarization and dysfunction.

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Speaker 2: Gtier, we are out of time. Thank you for joining us.

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Speaker 3: A great talk.

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Speaker 1: Angelo Kerasone is the CEO of Media Matters.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to Fast Politics.

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Speaker 4: Angelo, Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 3: It is the.

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Speaker 2: Settlement that launched a thousand uh.

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Speaker 1: Talk to me about the dominion case and Fox naws.

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Speaker 2: I mean they won, right Fox one, Yeah, I guess.

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Speaker 4: I mean they benefited from not having a trial. I

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Speaker 4: mean having to pay seven eighty seven million dollars is

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Speaker 4: not a good thing and it is going to hurt

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Speaker 4: them in other ways, I think. And this is where

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Speaker 4: it isn't satisfying because it's not over and these things

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Speaker 4: have a long tail. But like they filed documents SEC

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Speaker 4: documents SEC filings the eight individual times where they separately

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Speaker 4: said that this was nothing, that there was no risk

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Speaker 4: to shareholders, there was no risk to investors, there is

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Speaker 4: no risk to the company, And they made those material

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Speaker 4: representations knowing full well that there was evidence that specifically

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Speaker 4: could actually create a risk, Like they have an obligation

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Speaker 4: to at least tell people that, like they are going

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Speaker 4: to get busted for what's come out and having to

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Speaker 4: pay seven hundred and eighty seven million dollars, like the

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Speaker 4: size of that it will affect those other lawsuits. But yes,

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Speaker 4: I mean, I think to your point, they very much

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Speaker 4: won because having Fox on trial and having Murdoch take

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Speaker 4: the stand and Tucker and others would have been a

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Speaker 4: level of scrutiny not just from the general public, but

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Speaker 4: it would have hit their own audience in a way

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Speaker 4: that would have would have weakened them substantially. And now

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Speaker 4: they're not gonna be weakened substantially, at least initially, right.

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Speaker 1: But it does open the door to shareholder lawsuits, right,

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Speaker 1: can you talk about that?

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Speaker 4: So basically share shareholders are suing right now, there's one

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Speaker 4: lawsuit that's already underway. There's another group of shareholders that

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Speaker 4: are basically operating together that have requested a bunch of

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Speaker 4: sort of like pre trial materials.

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Speaker 5: But they can get access and that information.

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Speaker 4: As a result of the fact that they are significant shareholders,

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Speaker 4: they are almost certainly to sue. And then there's another

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Speaker 4: group of shareholders that in the process have put it

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Speaker 4: together some kind of like a class action and they

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Speaker 4: are basically suing for reachchre forduce shary duty and saying look,

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Speaker 4: you messed up here and you cost us money. That

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Speaker 4: will ultimately settle as well. The Murdochs will have to

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Speaker 4: pay out more money there and it could be very substantial.

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Speaker 4: I mean, the last time the Murdoch faced the shareholder lawsuit,

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Speaker 4: it was because he overpaid to buy his daughter's company

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Speaker 4: so that he could put her back into the company

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Speaker 4: put her on the board. This was in the wake

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Speaker 4: of the phone hacking sceddle. He needed another vote on

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Speaker 4: the board and so what he did is he bought

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Speaker 4: his daughter's company, overpaid for it so that she could

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Speaker 4: join the board. Shareholders sued and he settled with them

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Speaker 4: for a couple hundred million dollars just to make it

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Speaker 4: go away, right, so he'll almost certainly settle here. The

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Speaker 4: real problem here, and this is the thing that I

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Speaker 4: think would have been amazing for the trial is that, yeah,

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Speaker 4: it would have been great for the Fox people to

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Speaker 4: see all this, and that's one whole important thing. But

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Speaker 4: also as the trial would have been happening right now,

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Speaker 4: Fox is currently renegotiating carriage face yes, and like uugh, First.

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Speaker 1: I think you should do a two second explainer on

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Speaker 1: what the carriage fees are, just for for anyone who's

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Speaker 1: not completely read in on this.

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Speaker 4: A carriage fee is what a cable company pays to

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Speaker 4: have a TV channel available to its customers. So if

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Speaker 4: you have a TV channel, I give you like a

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Speaker 4: couple cents and then I get to offer it to

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Speaker 4: my customers, and it's usually a nominal fee. Fox News

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Speaker 4: is actually the second most expensive channel everybody's cable bill.

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Speaker 2: What's the first?

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Speaker 4: ESPN?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because that makes it which it makes sense right exactly.

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Speaker 4: Everyone I say that too, like, oh that makes sense

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Speaker 4: of course, Well yeah, but Fox News being number two,

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00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,959
Speaker 4: that does not make sense because that's not how it's

436
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,120
Speaker 4: supposed to work. But doesn't matter how they got here,

437
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 4: but they really leveraged this as a revenue driver. And

438
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:16,480
Speaker 4: the part about it that's that's sort of wild is

439
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,399
Speaker 4: they are in the process of the negotiations right now

440
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,120
Speaker 4: and just to put a number on it, So there's

441
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,840
Speaker 4: three contracts that are up. If they were to get

442
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,080
Speaker 4: just the increases that they're looking for, it would be

443
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 4: from the only these three, not even all of them.

444
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,199
Speaker 4: It would be an extra nine hundred and sixty million

445
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,359
Speaker 4: dollars in annual profit about two point nine billion dollars

446
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:37,480
Speaker 4: over the course of the contract.

447
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:42,199
Speaker 1: So which is and that's just that settlement plus plus.

448
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:43,720
Speaker 4: Exactly when you take out the fact that they're going

449
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,280
Speaker 4: to write off two hundred plus million dollars in you know,

450
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,679
Speaker 4: as a tax deduction, it really cost them five hundred

451
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:52,600
Speaker 4: million dollars and you know, it's basically twice what they

452
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 4: ended up having to pay here. So if you're the

453
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,600
Speaker 4: murdock and you're sitting in court, the thing to keep

454
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,240
Speaker 4: in mind is like, yeah, we need to we have

455
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 4: to be successful at our cable negotiations, and this having

456
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:07,400
Speaker 4: a trial unfold while we're in right taking a boardroom,

457
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:09,359
Speaker 4: it would have been really hard. And the one thing

458
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 4: I'll say too that is I feel like it's just

459
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,600
Speaker 4: gotten totally buried. But I really think is a big

460
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,399
Speaker 4: deal is obviously they had gone back and forth and

461
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:20,320
Speaker 4: given each other some offers, but the very last offer,

462
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:24,359
Speaker 4: the final offer, came a few minutes after the judge

463
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:28,160
Speaker 4: appointed a Special Master to investigate Rubert Murdoch for withholding documents.

464
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 4: You have to wonder what they didn't want everyone to see.

465
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I mean that's a really good point,

466
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:37,919
Speaker 1: the special Master documents. I want to ask you, so,

467
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,919
Speaker 1: what are the three cable companies that they're negotiating with

468
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:41,880
Speaker 1: right now.

469
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 4: Comcast, Charter, and Spectrum. And to put a number on it,

470
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:51,160
Speaker 4: there's a about ninety million cable customers in the country. Comcast, Charter,

471
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:55,040
Speaker 4: and Spectrum combined have about thirty six million customers.

472
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 2: Wow, so this is about a third of all their people.

473
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:00,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a big deal for them. So the thing

474
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 4: to also keep in mind is this is actually the

475
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 4: first in a series of renegotiations, because they're actually going

476
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,160
Speaker 4: to renegotiate all of their contracts this year.

477
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 2: Oh so this will set the bar for everything else too.

478
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, bingo, this sets the price, and so right now

479
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 4: they get about two So everybody that has cable right

480
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 4: now pays two dollars and eighteen cents a month to

481
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:18,440
Speaker 4: Fox News at least.

482
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:18,919
Speaker 2: Wow.

483
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 4: Yes, And Fox News is opening requests a little more

484
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,439
Speaker 4: than three dollars wow right now. It would be the

485
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 4: single largest increase in cable history. Nobody's ever gotten a

486
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 4: dollar increase. It's just wild.

487
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:33,160
Speaker 2: And there's no way to opt out.

488
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,360
Speaker 1: So all of us who pay for a cable are

489
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,720
Speaker 1: paying two nineteen in to Rupert Murdoch.

490
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 4: That's it every month, all of us, everybody. There's no

491
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 4: way out of it. And you know, my point with

492
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:45,959
Speaker 4: the cable companies is, you know, they could drop the channel,

493
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 4: which is incredible. They could offer a package that's Fox free.

494
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,919
Speaker 4: That's another possibility, the easiest thing to do. And I

495
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 4: think this is the part that's that's sort of incredible,

496
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,399
Speaker 4: is that the cable companies are overpaying for Fox. Fox.

497
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:01,360
Speaker 4: The Fox's price is inflated, and even generously, I say,

498
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 4: it's probably two times market rate right now. It should

499
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,239
Speaker 4: be about a dollar and change if we're being if

500
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:08,119
Speaker 4: we're being really generous.

501
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 1: To Fox right because you could make a case that

502
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 1: ESPN is offering things you couldn't get somewhere else whereas

503
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 1: Fox as is similar programming to OAN and Newsmax.

504
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 4: That's it. And like so you know, and like if

505
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,920
Speaker 4: you compare it to other similar situated news channels, and yeah,

506
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,640
Speaker 4: like you know, they should be probably more than CNN

507
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,119
Speaker 4: and MSNBC because they have a bigger audience and their

508
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 4: audience is more passionate. But it's a really small audience

509
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:37,239
Speaker 4: compared to so for example, like basically, if you look

510
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 4: at the totality of the universe of cable, only fourteen

511
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 4: percent of cable customers like ever across the board of

512
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 4: the ninety million ever actually even turn on Fox News

513
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 4: like once in a blue mood. Obviously Fox's audience is

514
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 4: only like three million. But like if you're saying, how

515
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 4: many people ever touch Fox News at a given year,

516
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 4: even just like stop on for five minutes, it's like

517
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 4: fourteen percent, which if you compare that to like TBS

518
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 4: and other channels, usually those are like fifty sixty seventy percent.

519
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,880
Speaker 1: Right, it's a very specific audience that it's popular with, exactly.

520
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 4: And this is where the rubber beats the road. This

521
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 4: is where real accountability starts, by the way, because like

522
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 4: if the cable companies just give Fox a straight renewal,

523
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 4: Fox basically becomes unprofitable in a couple of years because

524
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 4: unless they could figure out a way to get their

525
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 4: advertisers back. If cable companies actually reset Fox's rate and said, hey,

526
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 4: we're not going to pay you two times their value anymore.

527
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 4: We're just going to pay you market rate. We're going

528
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 4: to give you a buck, Fox News all of a

529
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 4: sudden goes from being profitable to not profitable overnight.

530
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 2: I mean, is there any chance that this happens?

531
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 4: Yes, So here's the good news. And you know, yah,

532
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:43,920
Speaker 4: I'm pretty realistic about this stuff, Like I always try

533
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 4: to figure out, like what's the nuts and balls hat?

534
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 4: Does it actually move? So every cable company has this

535
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 4: thing called the demand score, right, and this absolute helps

536
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 4: us explain why Fox is able to get their rates

537
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:54,199
Speaker 4: so high. So this thing called the demand score is

538
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 4: like it's a formula that they figure out. Okay, how

539
00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 4: much do people really want this cable company of this case,

540
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 4: this channel, So let's make sure we get in our package.

541
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 4: Fox during their renegotiations, has all of their viewers call

542
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 4: and basically they say, hey, you know your cable company

543
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 4: is about to take Fox News away and you better

544
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 4: call right now. So but just think about that, they

545
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 4: have three million viewers at most, there's eighty seven million

546
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 4: people that never watch Fox or want it, or certainly

547
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 4: don't want to pay for it. So basically, if people

548
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:25,640
Speaker 4: call their cable companies and just say, don't pay for Fox,

549
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 4: I don't want to pay for Fox, don't put over

550
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,360
Speaker 4: payer box, don't make me pay per Fox, that all

551
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,879
Speaker 4: gets factored into the demand score. And so when the

552
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,679
Speaker 4: cable companies are sitting at the table, they actually have

553
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,479
Speaker 4: some ability to negotiate and say, no, we know what

554
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 4: we don't. We have the math here, we have, weait

555
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 4: eclips to you, and I'll give you one bit of

556
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 4: good news.

557
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 2: So when does this happen?

558
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 4: Right now? It's happening right now. We are calling and

559
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:48,919
Speaker 4: I'll give you a bit of good news to prove it.

560
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 4: Right before Christmas, the Murdocks were renegotiating with one cable provider.

561
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 4: Everything butt Fox, and we ran a test campaign to

562
00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 4: get cable to call their cable company. In this case

563
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,920
Speaker 4: it was DirecTV and we said, look, I know it's

564
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 4: Fox Sports, I know it's the other one, but like

565
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 4: it still all goes to Fox. So just don't increase

566
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 4: the rate we generated. There were like about thirteen thousand

567
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 4: phone calls to the company that was more than Fox

568
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 4: was able to generate. DirecTV did not agree to Fox

569
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:18,679
Speaker 4: Sports increases. Even conservatively, Fox lost anywhere between two and

570
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 4: three hundred million dollars in anticipated revenue simply because the

571
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 4: math was the math. People customers called and said, I

572
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 4: don't want my cable bill to be raised, and so

573
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 4: these are very winnable fights. It's just no one's actually

574
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 4: done this ever except for Fox. Fox has actually done

575
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 4: this every single renewal for the past ten years. That's

576
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 4: why their rate is so high. This is one of

577
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 4: those moments where if we want to actually have some

578
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 4: accountability for Fox, the only way to really do that.

579
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 5: Is to cut off their profit engine.

580
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 4: And this is it.

581
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 2: Wow.

582
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 1: So basically, if you're listening this podcast, you should call

583
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 1: Fox News.

584
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 4: Yes and iban you need one more incentive. Let me

585
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 4: tell you this Fox. If you for the Fox was

586
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 4: bad before, you ain't say nothing. Yet they are going

587
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 4: to get worse than ever.

588
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 2: After they negotiate their cable care.

589
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 4: Right even during it. Because the cable companies don't really

590
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 4: care about the content. All they care about is the

591
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 4: math the phone calls to people, and so right now

592
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 4: Fox just bought a license to lie. The settlement is

593
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 4: behind them, and they need to resecure their footing with

594
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 4: their audience because it's a little whoppoly. They need to

595
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 4: get them to be fully passionate again. So they need

596
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 4: to rebuild that relationship. They need to activate their audience

597
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 4: ahead of the primaries, ahead of these negotiations, like they

598
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 4: need to sort of stir the pot. And that means

599
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 4: that anything that may have held them back because of

600
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 4: how it could play in trial, they don't have to

601
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 4: worry about that anymore. They don't have to worry about

602
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 4: a jewelry, they don't have to worry about the uncertainty.

603
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 2: What about the smart mat Fox's plan there.

604
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 4: Is to draw that out until at least twenty twenty five,

605
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 4: which is conceivable because they haven't started discovery yep, right

606
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 4: and they only need and really truly they Fox only

607
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 4: needs to draw this out until you know, the end

608
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 4: of of this year in order to get through all

609
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 4: these contracts. Because the thing to keep in mind about

610
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 4: the contracts is that it's guaranteed revenue. Once the contract

611
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 4: is signed, there's no changing it. Until the next renewal.

612
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 2: When is the next renewal.

613
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 4: The next renewals won't start until at least twenty twenty six,

614
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 4: but Fox is trying to get another year in, so

615
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 4: maybe twenty six, twenty twenty seven, twenty twenty eight, So

616
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 4: by then Cable will be so small, and Cable's hemorrhaging

617
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 4: three four five five million customers a year, it just

618
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 4: won't be a significant of a revenue driver for Fox

619
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 4: in the next round. Like this is really their last

620
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 4: run at this, well at least.

621
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: Right right, right right, and Fox is the second most

622
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 1: expensive cable channel, which I think is just shocking to me.

623
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 4: I know, it's just nuts. This is how they operate.

624
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 4: The part about this that's so in upsetting and bothersome

625
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 4: is that this is the result of actual accountability and

626
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 4: then Fox adapting. So when Glenn Bett got fired, he

627
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 4: got fired because he lost all of his advertisements and

628
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 4: Fox couldn't keep him anymore. Right after that happened, Roger

629
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 4: Als was like, you know what, We're done. This is

630
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 4: never happening again. We are never going to be susceptible

631
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:09,959
Speaker 4: to like these little like like like these like you know,

632
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 4: these people in the marketing industry. We are gonna our

633
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 4: audience is rabid. We're going to turn our audience against

634
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:23,239
Speaker 4: the cable companies and and raise their bills with out.

635
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 4: They're picking our pockets, and let's think there's their own

636
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 4: audience too, like they're ripping everybody off. It's just the

637
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 4: same way they shape politics, the same way they can

638
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 4: turn CRT into like a thing. That's what they did

639
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 4: with these cable fights, is they came up each time

640
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 4: and they leverage their audience and some other properties to

641
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 4: basically just keep jacking up these rates.

642
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 1: So wild, I mean, it's not wild, it's just fucking crazy.

643
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 1: So I want to ask you now, so if you're

644
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 1: listening to this podcast, you probably should call your cable

645
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 1: company and tell them you.

646
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 2: Don't want Fox.

647
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 1: You don't want to pay two dollars and eighteen cents

648
00:31:58,960 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 1: for Fox News.

649
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 2: That right, That's it.

650
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 4: That's the easiest way to do it. And if you

651
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 4: don't know what to do, you can go to this

652
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 4: website no foxfeed dot com. We know when the good

653
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 4: and the negotiations are happening. We give you the contact information.

654
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 4: It's not one of those like annoying things. We're not

655
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 4: going to send you emails for three dollars. I just

656
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 4: want to give you.

657
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 5: A telephone number to call.

658
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 4: I want to save you three dollars. I don't want

659
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 4: you to give me three dollars. That's basically it. I

660
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 4: know it's like it's annoying to do it, but it's

661
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 4: it's actually worth it. It's like the one thing where

662
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 4: we have the numbers on our side and if we

663
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 4: generate more calls, we went. It's it's very simple.

664
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 1: So you feel like, right now Fox is they are

665
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 1: going to drag out the smartmatic. What about this other

666
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 1: case with this woman who was fired Abby Grosberg.

667
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 4: It's a little bit unclear. If they can get to

668
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 4: some kind of discovery, then they'll probably settle quickly, right,

669
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 4: But it's you know, Fox usually tries to win these

670
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 4: things before discovery, or to limit discovery. I mean, they

671
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 4: didn't even start talking about a settlement with Dominion until

672
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 4: af after the court ruled that Rupert Murdoch was suceptible

673
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 4: to discovery. Prior to that, they were like, nah, you

674
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 4: were not even going to bother because as long as

675
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 4: you can't get access to the real stuff, we don't care.

676
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 4: So I think it'll depend on how they handle how

677
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 4: Discovery handles, and if if Grosberg is able to get through,

678
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 4: then they'll probably settle quickly.

679
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 5: The Murdoch's typically settle.

680
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 4: Obviously most places settle, but they usually wait until they

681
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 4: think it could have an effect on them. And so

682
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 4: that's my hunch, and I think they'll do the same

683
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 4: thing with the shareholder lawsuits once they consolidate. They're going

684
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 4: to wait until everybody plays their hand first. They're not

685
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 4: going to do anything too early. They're going to wait

686
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 4: until all the shareholders that are going to sue come forward,

687
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 4: and they're letting that organizing happen behind the scenes. But

688
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 4: if you notice, the thing they're very focused on right

689
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 4: now is making sure their stock price doesn't decline. And

690
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 4: that's why. That is why, by the way, Fox News

691
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 4: went immediately to a right wing outlet, it was like, Hey,

692
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:55,239
Speaker 4: don't worry, we're going to write this off in our

693
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 4: taxes last night, you know, like they made sure that.

694
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 4: And that's also why that information about the carriage increase

695
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 4: came out.

696
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 2: It's so much money, it won't it doesn't make sense.

697
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 4: Right, That's right, it doesn't make any sense. And getting

698
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 4: getting that out there for them is like it's all

699
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,840
Speaker 4: about making sure that they don't wopple the markets, because

700
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 4: that's how you keep shareholders on the side, Right, is

701
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 4: that shareholders what they think they can probably get most

702
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 4: of these shareholder lawsuits to drop before they even start

703
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 4: by basically saying, but do you really want to hurt yourself?

704
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 4: You know, do you really want to knock bound the

705
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 4: value of the stock by suing? Like that's sort of

706
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 4: their strategy. And they run this strategy in the past

707
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 4: and it works with mixed results, and then if it

708
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 4: gets serious, they'll settle. But all those things will happen

709
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,919
Speaker 4: in a way so far removes from the spotlight that

710
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,399
Speaker 4: we've seen with Dominion that even if it does get

711
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 4: a little further along, it will pay in comparison to

712
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 4: what we we've experienced the last couple of months.

713
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 1: Right, there's no way the Abbey grows for lawsuit is

714
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: as big as the Dominion lawsuit.

715
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 5: That's right.

716
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 4: Even with the tape the tapes, look there, there's a

717
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,799
Speaker 4: couple of tapes that are significant clear how much more

718
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 4: she has. I think that's where the special Master stuff

719
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 4: would have came in, because what that basically provided was

720
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 4: access to a real investigation of what material Fox held

721
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 4: back during the discovery process, and it seemed like that

722
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 4: really freaked them out, you know, they they were very

723
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 4: engaged on that, even before a special Master was appointed. Fox,

724
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 4: because I'd been tracking this, Fox sent a bunch of

725
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:25,799
Speaker 4: letters to the judge over the weekend. Like it's sort

726
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 4: of like a bat, like when you're like having like

727
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 4: a breakup or something kind of serious and you're being

728
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 4: over dramatic. Like the amount of letters they sent to

729
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:33,799
Speaker 4: the judge over the weekend was kind of hilarious, Like

730
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,319
Speaker 4: they kept like some motions, but mostly letters like just

731
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 4: Wiling's like please, we promised we weren't lying, like don't

732
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 4: do this with the special Master. And then they added

733
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 4: five attorneys the day of and it was all about

734
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 4: this specific angle, which was we didn't mess up discovery,

735
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,359
Speaker 4: like don't do this special Master thing. And you really

736
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 4: only respond that way if you actually did sort of

737
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 4: withhold stuff in discovery, and right, that's the only way

738
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:03,720
Speaker 4: I think the Abby Grossberg stuff could have really really penetrated. Yeah,

739
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 4: because it needed with the murdouts, it's always about can

740
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 4: you start a cascade?

741
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 5: So obviously we know it's rutten to the core.

742
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 4: But the question is can you actually expose it enough

743
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 4: that you actually get a full ish picture. And I

744
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 4: just don't think anything else on the horizon has the

745
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 4: potential to do that. Maybe Smarmatic, but I think once

746
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 4: Smarmatic gets serious, they will settle. But it's so.

747
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:30,320
Speaker 1: Far right right, because it's too much money to turn down.

748
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 1: And if you're a public company, you're not interested in justice,

749
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 1: you're just interested in MANI ultimatelya right because.

750
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 4: Again even from Dominion's perspective, and I totally understand this,

751
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 4: you know, I never they've done a lot. I mean,

752
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 4: what the discovery and getting you know, that motion for

753
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 4: summary judgment basically laid out all the facts. Like the

754
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 4: only thing that would have happened at trial is that

755
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 4: they would have had to talk about these things. But

756
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:54,760
Speaker 4: there was no new information anymore. It's all out there

757
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,359
Speaker 4: between the stuff that's been exposed. It's available now, and

758
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 4: so it's kind of on us to deliver the accountability

759
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 4: even if they want. Let's even say they got a

760
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 4: three billion dollar jewelry settlement, right, the headlines would have

761
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 4: been here's why it doesn't matter for Fox because they're

762
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 4: not gonna have to pay and they're gonna and it's true.

763
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 4: Degree it's true. They would have bogged it down in

764
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 4: appeals for years, right. I mean Alex Jones had as

765
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:20,840
Speaker 4: a billion dollar settlement a guide ward against him, and

766
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 4: he's still in appeals and he's on an air every day.

767
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 4: So it is. It's annoying and it's grating, but I

768
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 4: understand why they took it, and I think obviously smarmatic

769
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:29,919
Speaker 4: would do the same thing.

770
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 1: So thank you so much, thank you, thank you, Angelo,

771
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 1: thank you. Jeff Charlotte is the author of The Undertow

772
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:41,839
Speaker 1: Scenes from a Slow Civil War.

773
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,439
Speaker 2: Welcome Too Fast Politics. Jeff Charlotte, I'm Mollie.

774
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 5: Good to be with you.

775
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 1: So we're talking about The Undertow, which is a book.

776
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: Explain to us a little bit about what this book

777
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 1: is about and why you decided to write it.

778
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 5: Yeah. The subtitle is Scenes from the Slow Civil War,

779
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 5: which is is what I believe that we are in.

780
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,840
Speaker 5: I've been reporting on right wing movements for twenty years

781
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 5: or across the United States and around the globe, and

782
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 5: this book is in some ways, I don't want to

783
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 5: say it's a summary. I mean its scenes, there's stories,

784
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:15,760
Speaker 5: but it's sort of coming from this moment of seeing

785
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 5: changes that even given the sort of the depth of

786
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:21,800
Speaker 5: exposure I had to write wing movements, I recognized this

787
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 5: is something new. I recognized it in twenty fifteen when

788
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,400
Speaker 5: Trump came down the Golden Escalator and I said, that

789
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 5: is the fascist aesthetic. Will he find the movement which

790
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 5: before that I had actually written, for a variety of reasons,

791
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 5: probably wouldn't happen in the United States on a grand scale.

792
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 5: I was wrong. This book is about being wrong. It's

793
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 5: about chasing the kind of the formation of the fascist

794
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 5: movement out of the fascist aesthetic around the country, looking

795
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:52,759
Speaker 5: at the martyr myths of Ashley Babbitt.

796
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:56,319
Speaker 2: So explain to us where you went and who you

797
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:56,840
Speaker 2: talk to.

798
00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 5: So the book cover is sort of ten years. The

799
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 5: undertow is what I think of as the currents that

800
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 5: some of us saw. I think you saw and some

801
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 5: of us didn't, pulling us out to see. So it

802
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 5: talks about we talk about the men's rights movement, the

803
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 5: guys who brought to us that delightful metaphor of the

804
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:15,319
Speaker 5: red pill, and some of the churches, if we'd been

805
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,760
Speaker 5: paying attention, would have helped us understand why there would

806
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 5: be an evangelical embrace of Trump, then through the Trump scene.

807
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 5: The big part of the book begins January sixth, twenty

808
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 5: twenty one, when I watched thirty five year old white

809
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,279
Speaker 5: woman Ashley Babbit air Force veteran, climb up through a

810
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 5: window in the Capitol and get shot. And the officer

811
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 5: shotter was a black man, and being a student of

812
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:40,439
Speaker 5: American mythology and American history, I knew what they would

813
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 5: do with that, because that is the old lynching story.

814
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,360
Speaker 5: And sure enough she has become a martyr of the movement.

815
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 5: So I flew out to Sacramento, California for a rally

816
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 5: for Ashley Babbitt that turned into a brawl between Proud

817
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 5: Boys and Antifa, and then drove east very slowly, just

818
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 5: talking to people who dreamed they saw Ashley Babbitt, or

819
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 5: believe they had met Ashley Babbitt, or thought she was

820
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,880
Speaker 5: a hero or an angel, or a leader in a

821
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 5: spiritual sense of their movement. Who were the kind of

822
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 5: people you talked to, every kind of person. And I

823
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:14,720
Speaker 5: think this is especially to you. Know. I live in Verona,

824
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 5: very blue state, but I can drive ten miles in

825
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 5: any direction I can find a Confederate flag, a Trump flag,

826
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:23,799
Speaker 5: or worst of all, the all black flag. If you've

827
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 5: seen this flag out there, it's an American flag, but

828
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 5: all in shades of black. It stands for no prisoners

829
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:32,360
Speaker 5: in the civil war that those who fly I believe

830
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 5: has started or is coming. That means kill everyone on

831
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 5: the other side. It's a genocide flag. These folks are everywhere.

832
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:43,439
Speaker 5: This is not a blue state, red state thing. And

833
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:47,360
Speaker 5: the people that I met rained from Rob Brumm, a

834
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 5: leader of a militia and Marinette, Wisconsin, about six thousand strong,

835
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 5: invited me into his arsenal with his little kids, to

836
00:40:55,120 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 5: a delightful grandmotherly couple. I remember the guy said, oh,

837
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 5: I can't wait to get my hands on a protest.

838
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 5: I'm going to beat them up and get on CNN.

839
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 5: His wife looked at him and sort of frowned and said, ojeene,

840
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 5: and then she cracks a smile. These are not the

841
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 5: folks you would expect to hear this pleasure in violence

842
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 5: from suburban folks. People of color too, I should say,

843
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 5: and I write about that in the book The Ways

844
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 5: in which Fascism has a gravity that can pull even

845
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 5: people of color into its white supremacist vision what my

846
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,760
Speaker 5: friend Anthea Butler, in her book White Evangelical Racism, calls

847
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:33,320
Speaker 5: promise of whiteness.

848
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:36,439
Speaker 1: That's really interesting. Talk to us a little bit about

849
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:40,280
Speaker 1: David French, because that's pretty interesting. I read this interview,

850
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:45,760
Speaker 1: so you talked about no, but it's a you know, explain.

851
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 6: To us a little bit about this, well, David Friends,

852
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,799
Speaker 6: the former National Review writer who has been sort of

853
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 6: normalized by the New York Times, a man who not

854
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 6: too many years ago was writing with the most venomous

855
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:01,279
Speaker 6: bile about the student pitity of feminism.

856
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:03,359
Speaker 5: A man it would have fit at that point right

857
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,879
Speaker 5: in with my chapter on the men's rights activists, who

858
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 5: are not the most powerful movement I've ever written about,

859
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:11,240
Speaker 5: but are actually.

860
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,439
Speaker 2: The worst interesting Why every right.

861
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,439
Speaker 5: Wing movement is always more interesting than its caricature. Except them.

862
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 5: They're dumber. They're just dumbered. They really are sitting around

863
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:23,360
Speaker 5: talking about their ex girlfriend's ex wives or the girlfriends

864
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 5: they never had, but believe that they were entitled to you.

865
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 4: Right.

866
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,360
Speaker 5: So, David French, there's that veneer. And I think this

867
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:32,279
Speaker 5: is a way that so many, so many sort of

868
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,320
Speaker 5: our peers in the media can't see. Well, David French

869
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 5: is educating everything else. But there he is coming out

870
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 5: of that now it is New York Times.

871
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 4: Now.

872
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:41,360
Speaker 5: The one thing I'll say that I think is interesting

873
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:45,440
Speaker 5: is that when I began the big piece of appointing

874
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:47,839
Speaker 5: for this book right after January six twenty one, that

875
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 5: language of civil war, which I would have dismissed at

876
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:54,840
Speaker 5: one point, but I was noticing scholarly historians speak it,

877
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 5: and I know that they are cautious and rightly so,

878
00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 5: and I was paying attention, but even my colleagues in

879
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,240
Speaker 5: the prey dismissed it. Now here we are with David

880
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:04,399
Speaker 5: French writing in the New York Times, like we've got

881
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 5: to take this idea of the national divorce seriously. So

882
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 5: there's a bunch of things going on there. There's that recognition.

883
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,360
Speaker 5: But yeah, implicit in this book is media criticism throughout.

884
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 5: The subtitle has seen from a slow civil war, but

885
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,360
Speaker 5: it might be how to tell stories about fascism because

886
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:20,319
Speaker 5: I'll be the first to say that I don't think

887
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:22,839
Speaker 5: any of us have fully figured it out. If we had,

888
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 5: we wouldn't be where we are.

889
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:25,720
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no question.

890
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:29,800
Speaker 1: I want to ask you about this global fascist movement

891
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 1: because it's so interesting. So can you explain to us

892
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 1: a little bit you did sort of infiltrate the ranks

893
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:41,720
Speaker 1: of Republican leaders leadership for C Street. Explain to us

894
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 1: what those people think about the black flag people.

895
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, this was some earlier books of mine, the Family

896
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 5: in C Street, and you can see a Netflix documentary

897
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 5: about the family. These are the folks that bring us

898
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,240
Speaker 5: to National Prayer Breakfast every year, and they're the oldest

899
00:43:56,280 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 5: and arguably most influential Christian nationalist organization. Back to nineteen

900
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 5: thirty five. They thought the New Deal was of Satan,

901
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,320
Speaker 5: it was socialism, it was communism, and so they organized

902
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:10,879
Speaker 5: businessmen and they were interesting, partly because they don't fit

903
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 5: the caricature of the Southern preacher and the two tight

904
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:17,399
Speaker 5: soup pounding as Paul Thump and his Bible. These were

905
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 5: members of Congress, military leaders, business leaders, educated internationalists, and

906
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:25,359
Speaker 5: scope and they build up this international movement. And to

907
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 5: be honest, I thought, despite all their problems they had,

908
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:30,879
Speaker 5: when Trump came down that gold Escalator, I said, oh,

909
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:34,320
Speaker 5: there he is the man that groups like the Fellowship

910
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:38,760
Speaker 5: have been supporting overseas, where they have embraced the worst

911
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 5: dictators by their own admission, They're like, but this is

912
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 5: part of God's plan here He is come home to roost.

913
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 5: Would they actually accept that in the United States? They would?

914
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:52,279
Speaker 5: They did. And I think we know enough about the

915
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 5: history of fascism. I don't use the F word lightly

916
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:58,720
Speaker 5: at all, and I and you know it's in fact,

917
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 5: in my book about the Family, I wrote a chapter

918
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 5: called BF word fascism back in the post war period

919
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 5: when they were recruiting actual Nazi war criminals to advise congressmen,

920
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 5: guys so bad that they weren't allowed in the United States.

921
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:16,440
Speaker 5: So this group, the Family had to fly the congressmen

922
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 5: to Germany to take counsel with these figures. And even

923
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 5: then I said, this isn't fascism. There's more than one

924
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 5: kind of bad under the sun. This is horrible, but

925
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:27,360
Speaker 5: it is a different sort. Now Here we are with

926
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 5: the real F word in action, which is the convergence

927
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 5: of elite and popular movements. That's what we have when

928
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:36,760
Speaker 5: we have there's always right wing movements. But when groups

929
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,480
Speaker 5: that normally wouldn't talk to each other are aligned, then

930
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 5: we're in trouble.

931
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 1: So I want to push on this a little bit.

932
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 1: So we're talking about fascism. My friend Tom Nichols, who

933
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:51,920
Speaker 1: I really like as a friend, did a whole thread

934
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:55,760
Speaker 1: about how we're over using fascism. That's not how you

935
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 1: know how you do it. You don't say it like that.

936
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:02,840
Speaker 1: It's not accurate. It's this explained to us why he's wrong.

937
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:06,400
Speaker 5: Actually, Tom and I got into a very friendly and

938
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 5: good discussion, and I like Tom Nichols's work too, And

939
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 5: I should say the important point that Tom and I

940
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 5: both recognized is I think we're both all hands on

941
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 5: deck guys. We both recognize it. Whether you called authoritarianism

942
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 5: or fascism, it is here. It is serious and a

943
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 5: means making common cause with those whom you might not

944
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 5: agree on other issues. On this one, I would argue

945
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 5: with Tom. I think that the mistake that he and

946
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 5: some others are making are there's some kind of ahistorical mistakes.

947
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 5: And first we really need to look to understand fascism.

948
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 5: We can't just look at the history of World War two.

949
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:41,719
Speaker 5: We need to go back to French nineteenth century fascism.

950
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 5: We need to look at the scholarship on how the

951
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:48,680
Speaker 5: Nazis is a great book called Hitler's American Model. When

952
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 5: I say history, and I do not mean popular writers.

953
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:54,879
Speaker 5: I mean kind of dense, hardgoing, scholarly writers. But what

954
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 5: Tom is doing some who resisted their conflating fascist regime

955
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:03,880
Speaker 5: act government that is in place with a fascist movement.

956
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 5: And Tom is right, we do not have and Trump

957
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:11,720
Speaker 5: was not able to achieve a Hitlarian or a Mussulinian government,

958
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 5: although Tom was restricting himself to the European model.

959
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 2: Well, I feel a lot better, right, I.

960
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:21,600
Speaker 5: Mean, let's talk about Saharto in Indonesia and ongoing fascism there.

961
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:25,239
Speaker 5: Let's talk about Deterurt and Marcos and Philippines. These are

962
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 5: fascist regimes, some of them by name. Let's talk about

963
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 5: Franco in Spain, which was a softer, very brutal fascism.

964
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:34,279
Speaker 4: Right.

965
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 5: So there's these models, and so the question, and I

966
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:39,239
Speaker 5: think Tom and I are in the same footing. But

967
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:42,319
Speaker 5: I do say, look, mostly we shouldn't be quibbling over

968
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 5: this fascism authoritarianism as long as you recognize that what

969
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 5: so much of the media is doing now, which is

970
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 5: replicating the horse race politics of twenty sixteen b to Santus,

971
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 5: who the hell cares?

972
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:58,320
Speaker 2: But don't you think that the sort of road to

973
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:00,160
Speaker 2: hell is paved with that.

974
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 1: Well, not fascism in the European definition, but fascism in

975
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:08,840
Speaker 1: the you know us definition. I mean, don't you think

976
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:11,319
Speaker 1: that's sort of how we got here is by this

977
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:18,799
Speaker 1: kind of very you know, specific, slightly over intellectual. I mean,

978
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:21,800
Speaker 1: isn't it sort of the road to fascism is filled

979
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 1: with people telling you you're overreacting.

980
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, those of us who've long been on the

981
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 5: right wing beat story in my life. I remember when

982
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:32,120
Speaker 5: two thousand and eight the Family came out and interviewers

983
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 5: would say, why are you talking about the Christian right

984
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:36,759
Speaker 5: now that Obama's been elected and the Christian right has

985
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 5: gone forever? I'm not kidding you. Even now, even now,

986
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 5: some unnamed producers are saying, oh, we're going to pass.

987
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 5: We think Trump is over and Trump may be over right.

988
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 5: I don't think he is, but trump Ism isn't. And

989
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:53,879
Speaker 5: that's the failure to understand social movements. I got into

990
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 5: it with a senior New York Times political reporter, so

991
00:48:56,719 --> 00:48:59,040
Speaker 5: we don't need to call this racist, and not only that,

992
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:01,439
Speaker 5: he went further, and if you do, you're not really

993
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:07,840
Speaker 5: doing journalism. I find this kind of normalization where we see.

994
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:10,320
Speaker 5: You know, I think a New York Times op ed

995
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,879
Speaker 5: Frank Luntz writing, how do we further the agenda of

996
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 5: Trump without Trump himself? The agenda is fascism, So how

997
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:22,840
Speaker 5: do we find a more polite manifestation of that? I

998
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:25,759
Speaker 5: think Lunz is in the weeds. He doesn't understand that

999
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:28,719
Speaker 5: the appeal of fascism is not so much a set

1000
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:33,320
Speaker 5: of policies. It's always been historically anesthetic, right.

1001
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:35,239
Speaker 1: It always has been an aesthetic. That's a good point.

1002
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 1: But isn't Lunz ultimately he wants fascism. I mean, you

1003
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 1: may not. I mean, I was on a panel with

1004
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:43,280
Speaker 1: him last week. He's a lovely guy. But like trump

1005
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:46,320
Speaker 1: Ism to them is just a sort of a bunch

1006
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 1: of you know. I mean, what I think is incredible

1007
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:53,359
Speaker 1: about about this sort of quote unquote good Republicans is

1008
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:55,880
Speaker 1: they still believe in all of the quote unquote and

1009
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:58,719
Speaker 1: again I don't think is a ton of policies, But

1010
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:01,799
Speaker 1: I mean they believe in all of trump Ism. There

1011
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 1: are certain aspects of it they find slightly distasteful.

1012
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 5: They find it distasteful, which is a failure to understand

1013
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 5: the nature of the movement. It's because those guys don't

1014
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:12,920
Speaker 5: go to Trump rally, so if they do, they sit

1015
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:16,000
Speaker 5: in the VIP seats or with the press for the book.

1016
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:18,920
Speaker 5: In my reporting, Molly, I've been a reporter for thirty years.

1017
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 5: I have used a press pass. I think exactly once.

1018
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 5: I'm not interested. Look, I've moved amongst the rich and

1019
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:27,759
Speaker 5: the powerful for the family, but I'm not interested in

1020
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 5: that kind of access journalism. And when I go to

1021
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:32,319
Speaker 5: a Trump rally, I need to stand in line for

1022
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 5: six hours like everybody else and listen to the playlist

1023
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 5: repeat over and over and feel the transgressive joy, feel

1024
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:46,120
Speaker 5: people who would never have taken delight and what was

1025
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:48,839
Speaker 5: again and again and again and here we are again,

1026
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 5: It's happening again, not reported on. You go to Trump rallies.

1027
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 5: He is a great performer. He is one of the

1028
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:57,760
Speaker 5: two best orders I've ever heard live. But the reporters

1029
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 5: are even now still trying to talk about policy instead

1030
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:04,640
Speaker 5: of say the twenty minute aria that he'll sing of

1031
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:10,000
Speaker 5: decapitation's disembowelments, rapes and describing in detail and people who

1032
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 5: would have shivered at such things. It's corny, but really

1033
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:17,560
Speaker 5: there is a sort of orgasmic element to it. Right

1034
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:20,640
Speaker 5: down to when Trump imitates orgasms, which he does.

1035
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:23,879
Speaker 1: I always think of this as like the bizarro grateful Dad.

1036
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:27,720
Speaker 1: These people go to follow Trump wherever he goes.

1037
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, I've met people who've been to sixty seventy rallies.

1038
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:33,960
Speaker 5: You can hear grateful Dead in the parking pack dog

1039
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 5: good heads.

1040
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:34,959
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1041
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:36,880
Speaker 5: The middle section of the book. Each section of the

1042
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:38,960
Speaker 5: book is named after the song. The middle section is

1043
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:41,520
Speaker 5: named dream On, after the Aerosmith song, which I love.

1044
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:43,719
Speaker 5: I was raised on classic rock. But to hear in

1045
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:47,719
Speaker 5: rotation at Trump rallies and people spin and circles.

1046
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:49,520
Speaker 2: Why why do you hear that song?

1047
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:53,239
Speaker 5: Why? Why do you hear Lionel Richie? Why do you

1048
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 5: hear I mean you're hearing Trump's nineteen eighties playlist? Is

1049
00:51:57,960 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 5: why do you hear Pavaratti right?

1050
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:02,359
Speaker 1: Just because he likes it or because it speaks to

1051
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:03,359
Speaker 1: them in a certain way.

1052
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:08,279
Speaker 5: Yes, so many of these things are. Yes, it's a

1053
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:10,319
Speaker 5: little bit like right down to you. I can't believe

1054
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:12,600
Speaker 5: we're still having the debate is this fascism? Is it

1055
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:15,400
Speaker 5: about racism or is it about class? Or is it

1056
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:18,960
Speaker 5: about gender? Yes, it is the intersectionality of the right.

1057
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:22,440
Speaker 2: It strikes me though, that they just don't have the numbers.

1058
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 5: Ultimately, Oh oh oh no, no, Molly, you can tell

1059
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 5: me why I'm wrong. All right. So there's a couple

1060
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:31,040
Speaker 5: of things here, and I hear this all the time,

1061
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:33,960
Speaker 5: way doll, These militia guys get a load of an

1062
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 5: F sixteen, right, and that is correct. And I have

1063
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:38,879
Speaker 5: I look, I mean, in for this book, I got

1064
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 5: more guns pointed at me than I had many. I mean,

1065
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 5: I've been on the wrong side of a gun, but

1066
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:45,440
Speaker 5: never in a church before. This was something new for me,

1067
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 5: or never by the manager of Louren Bobert's diner, Shooters

1068
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:52,360
Speaker 5: Hooters with guns. He didn't draw. He just sort of

1069
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:54,160
Speaker 5: hovered like in the Old West and said I could

1070
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:56,520
Speaker 5: not finish my walk nine that's what they call the

1071
00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:00,120
Speaker 5: all named after guns West and Wess. And so you say, oh,

1072
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:01,840
Speaker 5: these guys, yeah, they don't have the numbers, and that

1073
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 5: is correct. What those guys are are they are sparks.

1074
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:08,799
Speaker 5: We're in the slow civil war now, and their casualties

1075
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 5: already all around the country. What happens is and I've

1076
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:14,880
Speaker 5: done a lot of reporting from the military too, and

1077
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:17,360
Speaker 5: we saw in the Washington Post three generals and the

1078
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 5: most overlooked piece of the year. I think one like

1079
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:23,480
Speaker 5: the military is not secure. And if we have a

1080
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:26,600
Speaker 5: real chain of command crisis as in who's president, if

1081
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:30,360
Speaker 5: we have one rogue based commander one, if we have

1082
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:34,080
Speaker 5: a governor like DeSantis who wants to play chicken, then

1083
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:37,560
Speaker 5: suddenly this can escalate into something much worse. But even

1084
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 5: before that, there's the Irish troubles, you know.

1085
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:42,880
Speaker 1: I mean that seems like a more likely slow rolling,

1086
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:44,640
Speaker 1: which is what you write about civil.

1087
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:48,280
Speaker 5: War slow rolling. Look, my kid, I have a queer,

1088
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:51,880
Speaker 5: non binary kid. They're criminalized in twenty States. People pregnant,

1089
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 5: people are dying for lack of reproductive rights. And we

1090
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 5: as reporters know that every one of those stories that

1091
00:53:56,719 --> 00:53:59,840
Speaker 5: you see is stands in for a hundred that we

1092
00:53:59,880 --> 00:54:04,520
Speaker 5: done right. There are casualties. Now, it's not enough for

1093
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:06,759
Speaker 5: us to say, well, we'll never never get violent. The

1094
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:08,360
Speaker 5: violence is here, So what are we going to do

1095
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:09,080
Speaker 5: about it? Right?

1096
00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:12,719
Speaker 2: No, I mean that's completely right. Thank you, thank you,

1097
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 2: thank you. I hope you will come back.

1098
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:19,280
Speaker 5: Thanks Molly, I appreciate it. No moment.

1099
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 7: Jesse Cannon, Molly junk Fast down in Florida. They are

1100
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:29,280
Speaker 7: making horrible laws at a speed that I never imagine

1101
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:31,960
Speaker 7: was even possible with all the bureaucracy I hear about.

1102
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 1: Florida had passed a don't Say Gay law. It was

1103
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:40,200
Speaker 1: for younger children. They defended it by saying that it

1104
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:44,600
Speaker 1: was really just to protect little kids from over sexualized content.

1105
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 2: And that this was obviously we're all being hysterical.

1106
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 1: That is not true, and we learned that today, or

1107
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 1: we learned that a couple of days ago when Florida

1108
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:59,080
Speaker 1: passed a Don't Say Gay law K to twelve, So

1109
00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:01,920
Speaker 1: high school games, it can't be taught about sex, they

1110
00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:06,520
Speaker 1: can't be taught about LGBTQ lifestyles. So imagine the world

1111
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:09,160
Speaker 1: where you're in high school. You're trying to read Aristotle

1112
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:13,000
Speaker 1: and you can't say that he's gay, or maybe you

1113
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:14,319
Speaker 1: just don't read Aristotle.

1114
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:16,440
Speaker 2: Yet again, another time.

1115
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:22,839
Speaker 1: Where Florida is putting religion before science, and for that

1116
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:27,719
Speaker 1: they are our moment of fuckering. That's it for this

1117
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:31,480
Speaker 1: episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, and

1118
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 1: Friday to hear the best minds in politics makes sense

1119
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:37,680
Speaker 1: of all this chaos. If you enjoyed what you've heard,

1120
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:40,960
Speaker 1: please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going.

1121
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:43,040
Speaker 1: And again thanks for listening.