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Speaker 1: Hey everybody. Yeah you doing. Oh, I don't know what

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Speaker 1: you're talking about. It's only been a second. We've been

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Speaker 1: here the whole time. Moment, we've been here the whole time.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what y'all are talking about. A blip,

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Speaker 1: a blink of an eye. We were gone. But we're back.

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Speaker 1: That's all that matters right now, is that we're back.

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Speaker 1: We had a great Fringe festival this year. Oh Man, Diana,

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Speaker 1: phenomenal work. I just got to say it. I mean

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Speaker 1: I try to say it every day, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of other people say it who don't spend every minute

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Speaker 1: of their lives with you. But an incredible year and

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Speaker 1: just you and your team, really amazing stuff. I had

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Speaker 1: a really good time as an attendant and as a critic.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's true. You had to critique several shows.

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Speaker 1: Oh, and I let them have it.

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Speaker 2: I am excited to read.

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Speaker 1: No, it was a really good year for shows. Actually, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I didn't. I didn't hate anything. I don't even think

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Speaker 1: I disliked anything. I think I mostly at the work.

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Speaker 1: I like, had some notes about a couple of them,

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Speaker 1: but I saw some that were just amazing.

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Speaker 2: It was kind of nice this year. There was no

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Speaker 2: no show that anyone hated or was talking shit about.

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Speaker 2: There was no artist that was a jerk like, there

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Speaker 2: was no It was almost like, well, where's all my

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Speaker 2: fun drama.

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Speaker 1: About? You know what?

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Speaker 2: Even I was really happy about that.

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Speaker 1: It was.

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Speaker 2: It was also kind of funny to be like, well, no,

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Speaker 2: I don't have an enemy, where is my friend enemy?

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Speaker 2: But no, it was a really good year. I was

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Speaker 2: really proud of it and good yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And you might hear a squeaking in the background

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Speaker 1: right now because we're dog sitting little Gunny. He's a joy.

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Speaker 2: Mostly that was the worst line.

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Speaker 1: He's so snugly and sweet. He's a little angel, and

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Speaker 1: he has The thing is, Gunny has two settings. I'm

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Speaker 1: lying in your lap and I just want love and

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Speaker 1: a lot of the times he's like that and his

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Speaker 1: other setting on a scale of one to one hundred,

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Speaker 1: eight hundred and seventy six.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a crazed lunatic. But he's just a puppy.

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Speaker 1: He's a puppy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really all it is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And there's so much to catch you up on too.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to take too much time the Succession finale.

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Speaker 1: We're watching Silo now. We saw it. We saw Across

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Speaker 1: the Spider Verse.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, the best movie ever made.

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Speaker 1: It was really good.

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Speaker 2: Guardians three was really good.

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Speaker 1: Guardians three was really good. But you know, we got

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Speaker 1: to set all that aside because we've got a big

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Speaker 1: story to get to here. Huge story. I mean, this guy,

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Speaker 1: his name, his reputation precedes him. We know that because

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Speaker 1: in our last episode we learned about Al and May Capone.

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Speaker 1: Of course, al Capone one of the most notorious gangsters

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Speaker 1: of all time. He was from Brooklyn, but he ended

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Speaker 1: up the head of the Chicago Outfit, which is an

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Speaker 1: Italian American organized crime gang. His wife May was the

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Speaker 1: daughter of Irish immigrants, and so at the time him

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Speaker 1: Italian men marrying Irish girls was like a big no

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Speaker 1: no for both cultures. But these two were very They

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Speaker 1: were just total Romeo and Juliette like totally in love

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Speaker 1: and they got married. They had a son named Albert,

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Speaker 1: who was called Sonny. Eventually these two ended up being

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Speaker 1: stinking rich mobsters. Right well, al was a mobster and

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Speaker 1: May you know, knew about it. She hosted all of

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Speaker 1: his cronies. Now, when last we left, Al had tried

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Speaker 1: to semi retire by moving to Miami, and they and

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Speaker 1: the family ingratiated themselves with the locals. There's dropping cash

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Speaker 1: supporting local business like seemed pretty nice. But of course

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Speaker 1: he just ended up doing a bunch of crime again.

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Speaker 1: You know. Every time I get out, they pulled me

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Speaker 1: back in, and this included calling a hit on his

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Speaker 1: former boss and crime partner, Frankie Yale. Now Al's undiagnosed

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Speaker 1: syphilis was starting to affect his brain and it was

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Speaker 1: making him even more ruthless and violent than he all

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Speaker 1: he was, and things were about to get rough for

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Speaker 1: the Capone family. So let's dive in and see what

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Speaker 1: horrors await for public family number one.

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Speaker 3: Let's door, Hey, their friends come listen.

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Speaker 2: Well, Eli and Diana got some stories to tell.

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Speaker 3: There's no matchmaking, a romantic tips.

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Speaker 2: It's just about ridiculous relation ships, a lover.

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Speaker 3: There might be any type of person at all, and

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Speaker 3: abstract concept or a concrete wall. But if there's a

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Speaker 3: story where the second glance boot it and show ridiculous

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Speaker 3: romance a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: So Al Capone, his wife May, and their son Sonny

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Speaker 1: had moved to Miami in nineteen twenty eight after getting

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Speaker 1: chased out of basically every other city he tried to visit.

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Speaker 1: You know, al Capone would go visit Los Angeles and

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Speaker 1: they were like, you get out of here, or they

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Speaker 1: were like, uh, you like, get out of here, al Capone,

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Speaker 1: we don't watch you here. Or he would go to

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Speaker 1: Minnesota and they'd be like, I don't think so their

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Speaker 1: al Capone. You can keep back your bags and keep moving.

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Speaker 2: Take your hot dish somewhere else.

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Speaker 1: He'd go to Birmingham, Alabama.

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Speaker 2: We don't take calmly to your sore around here, al

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Speaker 2: Capone exactly.

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Speaker 1: But Miami.

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Speaker 2: Who your people?

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Speaker 1: Who your people? But he shows up in Miami and

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Speaker 1: he was determined to stay there. He called it quote

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Speaker 1: the Garden of America and the sunny Italy of the

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Speaker 1: New World. And he announced that quote, I'm gonna build

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Speaker 1: or buy a home here, and I hope my friends

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Speaker 1: will join me.

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Speaker 2: I did really have a blast in Miami when I went. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so I don't blame him.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, you also went down to escape your criminal past.

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Speaker 1: That's true. Yeah, that's true.

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Speaker 2: And it was a great escape too, Art Basil, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: oh yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well it turns out that at the time Miami was

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Speaker 1: in actually a really bad real estate bust because they'd

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Speaker 1: had a hurricane the year before that kind of screwed

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Speaker 1: everything up. So even if they were initially a little

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Speaker 1: skeptical of criminal mastermind Al Capone showing up in their town,

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Speaker 1: as soon as he suggested that he was looking to

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Speaker 1: buy property there, they were like abiosabi.

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Speaker 2: Party in the city with a few to them.

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Speaker 1: He totally busted out the dancers. A headline in the

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Speaker 1: Chicago Tribune read quote, Capone hunted in Miami, but by

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Speaker 1: realty men.

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Speaker 2: So, like we said in the last episode, Alan May

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Speaker 2: totally ingratiated themselves into Miami culture. They were throwing money around.

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Speaker 2: They leased a penthouse at the Punstilion Hotel and a

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Speaker 2: waterfront mansion. They were supporting local businesses. They were like

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Speaker 2: dropping thousand dollars bills on furniture makers and tailors and

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Speaker 2: generally just making Miami. We're real happy to have them. Sure,

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Speaker 2: police chiefs and other cities had basically all said, you know,

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Speaker 2: we don't want to hear a Capone, but Miami's chief

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Speaker 2: h Leslie Quiggs said, quote, if he's here for a

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Speaker 2: good time and behaves himself, he can stay as long

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Speaker 2: as he likes Wow, and the mayor of Miami, J.

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Speaker 2: Newton Lummis was a reialter.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, so even.

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Speaker 2: Though he publicly denounced Capone, he also secretly worked for him.

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Speaker 2: Great job, Lomash.

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Speaker 1: Wait, like, you're not asking for organized crime if you

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Speaker 1: elect a realtor as your mayor. Oh, no dangerous crossovers there.

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Speaker 2: So Lummis actually helped Capone buy this huge property, but

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Speaker 2: it was all very secretive. They had this buried paper

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Speaker 2: trail going on where the former mayor's son was the intermediary.

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Speaker 2: He laundered money from Chicago to Miami, eventually purchased the property,

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Speaker 2: and then put a lease in may Capone's name. So

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Speaker 2: the Copones didn't technically own the.

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Speaker 1: Right right from this guy from a.

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Speaker 4: Totally random dude, A totally random dude who happened to

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Speaker 4: get a bunch of money coming in from Chicago for

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Speaker 4: some reason. Yeah, but this little maneuver was gonna be

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Speaker 4: another handy little piece of evidence in the case that

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Speaker 4: the Feds were building against al Capone. And so before

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Speaker 4: we settle down with the rest of Allen May's story,

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Speaker 4: let's take a quick fling with.

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Speaker 1: History order in the court in the nineteen twenties. During Prohibition,

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Speaker 1: it was almost impossible to prosecute crime bosses because of witness,

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Speaker 1: intimidation or lack of hard evidence, and of course bribery

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Speaker 1: was just everywhere. But this woman, Mabel Walker Willebrandt, who

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Speaker 1: had been the first public defender of women in Los

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Speaker 1: Angeles in nineteen twenty one, became the US Assistant Attorney General,

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Speaker 1: and she was handling a lot of the prohibition cases.

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Speaker 1: And she steps in and she's like, Hey, these mob

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Speaker 1: bosses are living like kings and just dropping money everywhere

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Speaker 1: they go. But they never filed tax returns. Like when

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Speaker 1: they do their taxes, they say they don't have any

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Speaker 1: money or they didn't make any money. So shouldn't we

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Speaker 1: be able to prosecute them for that? Hmmm. They're like, uh, hey, Mabel,

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Speaker 1: good idea. Well, oh, woman with a good idea.

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Speaker 2: Actually they probably were like, oh whatever. Anyway, Hey, guys,

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Speaker 2: you know what I've been thinking, Uh, these mafia guys

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Speaker 2: are living like kings and they never put in tax returns.

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Speaker 2: I was just thinking I had this great idea, just

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Speaker 2: a second, brilliant thought. Henry and Mabel's like, okay, as

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Speaker 2: long as the work gets done. I guess I don't

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Speaker 2: need credit.

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Speaker 1: That's correct, Mabell. I'll take coffee seven sugars please, I'll

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Speaker 1: prosecute you. Well. The first guy that they ended up

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Speaker 1: getting under this theory was Manly Sullivan in nineteen twenty one.

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Speaker 1: He was a bootlegger from South Carolina and they brought

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Speaker 1: him in, they arrested him. They said, hey, you must

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Speaker 1: not be paying taxes because you clearly have all this

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Speaker 1: money that you're not declaring. Well, his lawyer said that

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Speaker 1: for him to file a tax return on money that

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Speaker 1: he had earned illegally would violate his Fifth Amendment protections

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Speaker 1: against self incrimination. Like, basically, if he filed a return

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Speaker 1: that said I got I got all this money through bootlegging.

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Speaker 1: Here's the money I made, then he's basically saying, hey,

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Speaker 1: I committed a crime, and that's forcing someone to admit

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Speaker 1: a crime against their will. Fifth Amendment. You can't do that.

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Speaker 2: Okay, that makes sense yeah to me, I guess. But

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Speaker 2: it did not fly in federal court. He was totally convicted,

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Speaker 2: but a court of appeals reversed the decision and they

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Speaker 2: sent it to the Supreme Court. So Scotis took the

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Speaker 2: case and Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes found quote no reason

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Speaker 2: why the fact that a business is unlawful should exempt

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Speaker 2: it from paying taxes that, if lawful, it would have

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Speaker 2: to pay, and the court agreed unanimously. They noted that

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Speaker 2: the Revenue Act of nineteen twenty one said that gross

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Speaker 2: income includes quote gains or profits and income derived from

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Speaker 2: any source whatever, right, and Holmes said that the Fifth

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Speaker 2: Amendment thing did not apply because everybody has to declare

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Speaker 2: their income, so earning it illegally should not get you

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Speaker 2: special treatment over everyone else. Also makes sense, I guess,

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Speaker 2: because it would just be like, oh, if you get

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Speaker 2: it illegally, you don't have to pay taxes. Yeah, loophole everyone,

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Speaker 2: Like that would be a really bad precedent to set it.

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Speaker 1: Not only can you break the law to make all

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Speaker 1: your money, you don't even have to tell me and did.

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Speaker 2: It, you could also avoid that tax thing everybody.

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Speaker 1: It does kind of encourage people to look in that direction.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So the Feds were already working on a case against

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Speaker 2: Copone under this decision, and they were looking at how

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Speaker 2: much money he was spending in order to determine how

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Speaker 2: much he was earning.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so they're seeing like, oh, okay, may Capone is

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Speaker 1: leasing this multimillion dollar mansion in Miami with what Yeah,

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Speaker 1: with what you moved down to Chicago with on paper nothing.

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Speaker 1: Side note, My favorite part of that ruling from the

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Speaker 1: Supreme Courts is where Justice Homes said that, sure, it

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Speaker 1: might be suggested that if you declare your illegal business income,

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Speaker 1: that you could also deduct illegal business expenses like bribery. Like, hey, look,

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Speaker 1: if I if I write down the I made a

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Speaker 1: million dollars in bootlegging, I'm going to deduct the three

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Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars I spent in bribes. You know.

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Speaker 2: Now that's very interesting because it kind of incriminates the

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Speaker 2: people that you're bribing, right because you could be like, well,

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Speaker 2: I spent three hundred thousand dollars bribing the Chicago p D.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, which of course they wouldn't want you to do obviously. Well,

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Speaker 1: Justice Holmes said that I'm not saying this is a

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Speaker 1: logical conclusion that you could deduct your illegal expenses quote,

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Speaker 1: but it will be time enough to consider the question

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Speaker 1: when a taxpayer has the temerity to raise it. So

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Speaker 1: he's like, look, if somebody wants to come in here

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Speaker 1: and say, hey, I made illegal bribes and I should

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Speaker 1: be able to deduct those. We'll talk about it, then we'll.

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Speaker 2: Cross that bridge. When someone sets it on fire, I.

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Speaker 1: Kind of feel like it's not going to happen, you know.

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Speaker 2: You know, maybe there's someone out there right now trying

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Speaker 2: to figure out their case.

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Speaker 1: It could be. I mean, it still says in the

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Speaker 1: IRS tax Code today that quote income from illegal activities,

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Speaker 1: which would include things like dealing drugs or accepting bribes,

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Speaker 1: must be included in the declaration of one's income, and

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Speaker 1: Steve Hargreaves of CCEN in Business wrote in twenty thirteen quote,

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Speaker 1: not surprisingly few criminals declare their loot, but he said

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Speaker 1: that some do. I was really surprised by. I'm like,

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Speaker 1: who would, because that is self incrimination. And he was

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Speaker 1: writing that usually it's when people feel like they're about

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Speaker 1: to get caught for their crimes and they don't want

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Speaker 1: a tax evasion charge slapped on top of whatever charges

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Speaker 1: they're already facing, so they'll be like, let me declare

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Speaker 1: this real quick. I see, so they at least I

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Speaker 1: only go to jail for the crime and.

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Speaker 2: Not I mean, do they file back taxes like every

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Speaker 2: year they've made illegal money or whatever. Also, interestingly, when

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Speaker 2: it came out that this house had a deed in

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Speaker 2: may Capone's name, insurance companies pulled their policy. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 2: they said, did not matter which copone owned this home.

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Speaker 2: It was just ensuring it was way too risky.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't care if it's may Capone. You still

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Speaker 1: get end up with a bunch of bullet holes in

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Speaker 1: your windows. That can for that, and also not mention alls.

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Speaker 1: You probably don't want to ensure a house that has

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Speaker 1: known illegal activities going on in.

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Speaker 2: It really true anyway. In nineteen twenty seven, just before

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Speaker 2: al moved to Miami, President Coolidge had appointed a new

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Speaker 2: US attorney in Chicago named George Emerson Q. Johnson, who

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Speaker 2: was like a tall, wiry, rumpled old man who Lawrence

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Speaker 2: Bergreen says, quote might have been mistaken for a poet,

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Speaker 2: but perhaps a drama critic, that is until he opened

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Speaker 2: his mouth. Because this guy was a real nerd for

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Speaker 2: the justice system. US attorney's made about ten thousand dollars

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Speaker 2: a year in that era, which is close to one

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Speaker 2: hundred and seventy five thousand dollars a year today, But

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Speaker 2: that was nothing compared to what a corrupt official could

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Speaker 2: bring in in bribes of course, real for real, So

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Speaker 2: it took a real nerd for justice to resist corruption,

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Speaker 2: like a real mister Smith goes to Washington.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally right, Like you know, the whole amount of

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Speaker 1: money could buy me off. I'm here for lady liberty,

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Speaker 1: Lady liberty. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Oh. Also side note, the Q stood for nothing. Oh,

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Speaker 2: it was just to stand out from other George Johnson

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Speaker 2: South there, Wow, Peter Q.

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Speaker 1: Parkers seven, George Emerson Johnson's in the phone book, throw

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Speaker 1: a Q in there, s Q stand up.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, all that to say a case was being

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Speaker 2: built against Capone without his knowledge for years.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all the background, they're just like watching his I mean,

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Speaker 1: like surely Capone knows the FBI's watching him, right, all

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Speaker 1: the mobsters did. That's why they were so careful, and

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Speaker 1: that why they were always dropping bribes. But they were

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Speaker 1: like they I think that's the thing they weren't expecting, Like,

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Speaker 1: you know, he's been real careful about his murders and

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Speaker 1: his bootlegging and his drugs and all that stuff. He's

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Speaker 1: not paying attention the accounting, right, the boring.

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Speaker 2: Park which is why it was a pretty smart angle. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: for Mabel to take yeah, and.

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Speaker 1: Why you've got people like elliottness and it was the

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Speaker 1: Treasury Department that ended up taking him down. Now, obviously

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Speaker 1: we're really trying to stay focused, y'all know, on on

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Speaker 1: the romance side of al Capone's life here and do

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Speaker 1: other people have done longer and better research series on

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Speaker 1: al Capone's crimes?

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Speaker 2: Many many his life's monster, right.

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Speaker 1: So we're just dropping a little bit of info to

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Speaker 1: sort of set up what he and his family ended

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Speaker 1: up doing. But one of the big ones was on

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Speaker 1: February fourteenth of nineteen twenty nine, when al Capone executed

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Speaker 1: the Saint Valentine's Day massacre, or well, al Capone almost

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Speaker 1: definitely executed this. Nobody was ever officially convicted, and it's

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Speaker 1: an elaborate story, but basically, in Chicago, seven men who

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Speaker 1: were working for Capone's rival, Bugs Moran, were executed by

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Speaker 1: four guys, two of which were dressed as police officers.

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Speaker 1: So there was a whole thing for a while where

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Speaker 1: people were like, oh, the cops did it, you know

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Speaker 1: they were, but they were not. Actually, I mean, we

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Speaker 1: don't know who they were, but the ideas that the

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Speaker 1: don't know they were not cops. Again, big long story.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to speculate on it right here because

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Speaker 1: there's way more evidence than I have handy. But at

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Speaker 1: the time Capone had been chilling in Miami with his family.

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Speaker 1: Like the night that this happened, they were having a

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Speaker 1: little dinner party. Capone had not had contact with anyone

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Speaker 1: in Chicago for days beforehand, like suspiciously little contact. He

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Speaker 1: was always talking to Chicago, but the four or five

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Speaker 1: days before this happened, just no communications. But that night, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they were holding a dinner party. Al was walking Sonny around,

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Speaker 1: introducing him to all his new Miami friends. May was

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Speaker 1: refilling drinks. She's socializing. Real just casual, fancy dinner party stuff. Now,

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Speaker 1: up to this point in Chicago, public opinion of Al

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Speaker 1: Capone was actually really not that bad. He was mostly

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Speaker 1: known as a bootlegger, and people kind of respected alcohol

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Speaker 1: smugglers because almost everyone wanted to drink.

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Speaker 2: That's what's so funny about prohibition. How hugely monumental of

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Speaker 2: a failure it was.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of ways, Yeah, and most people were

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Speaker 1: on the on the bootlegger's side to some degree, and

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Speaker 1: as long as they didn't know, you know what else,

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Speaker 1: they were doing. They were like, oh, they're just running gin.

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Speaker 1: I'm not worried about al Capone. He's just bringing me

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Speaker 1: the booze that I sneak in the speakeasy. Yeah. But

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Speaker 1: once the Saint Valentine's Day massacre happened and his name

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Speaker 1: was attached to it, and actually pictures of the crime

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Speaker 1: scene were leaked, so the public saw it this really

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Speaker 1: horrible carnage, and then his public image took a turn

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Speaker 1: for the worse. Within days, al Capone was called to

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Speaker 1: Chicago to testify, and again a lot more crime history

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Speaker 1: stuff happening there where he actually managed to get out

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Speaker 1: of it and weasel away from this with no charges.

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Speaker 2: That's right, because yeah, I was not convicted for this crime,

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Speaker 2: but we do know they got him of it, and

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Speaker 2: we'll find out how right after this break.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back, you stool pigeons, all right.

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Speaker 2: So al Capone was a criminal mastermind who just got

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Speaker 2: more cruel and violent as time went on. And we

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Speaker 2: talked about this a little bit before, but modern scholars

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Speaker 2: think this really had a lot to do with his

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Speaker 2: undiagnosed syphilis, which can affect the mind and it makes

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Speaker 2: people act very differently sometimes violently.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, whole personality changes that straight.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but very very long story short. Al's crimes continued

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Speaker 2: until he was arrested in nineteen thirty one and indicted

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Speaker 2: for tax evasion. At the beginning of the episode, we

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Speaker 2: took that quick fling with history to talk about the

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Speaker 2: Revenue Act of nineteen twenty one stated that you had

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Speaker 2: to declare your income, even for illegal activities. So while

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Speaker 2: Capone managed to dodge every other accusation thrown at him,

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Speaker 2: including this violent massacre that he was almost definitely orchestrated,

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Speaker 2: this was their angle to get him off the streets

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Speaker 2: and it worked.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Chicago Magazine reports that Al and May's lavish lifestyle

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Speaker 1: helped prosecutors put them away, particularly Al's insatiable appetite for food.

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Speaker 1: They were spending upwards of one thousand dollars a week

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Speaker 1: on groceries, and this was more than most depression era

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Speaker 1: families spent in a year.

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Speaker 2: Good God, I can't even just you know, you got it.

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Speaker 1: I'm imagining just buffet tables every night, paste, lobster, lobster.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it must be really expensive food. Oh yeah, one

387
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Speaker 2: thousand dollars a week in nineteen thirty one.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, Jesus, forget it.

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Speaker 2: You're buying too much.

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Speaker 1: Right, And it's not just him, of course, he's hosting

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Speaker 1: big parties all the time. He's wining and dining the

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Speaker 1: you know, politicians and stuff, because he was very into

393
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Speaker 1: Miami politics as well as a mobster. All this money

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Speaker 1: spending on food was a big part of the evidence

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Speaker 1: that we used against him to prove that he was

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Speaker 1: making way more money than he claimed. A Capone was

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Speaker 1: convicted and he was sentenced to eleven years in prison,

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Speaker 1: And first he was sent to Atlanta. Now he was

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Speaker 1: officially diagnosed with syphilis here during a medical inspection, and

400
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Speaker 1: he was also suffering from cocaine withdrawal because he had

401
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Speaker 1: been a huge cocaine user. It actually gave him a

402
00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,800
Speaker 1: perforated septum, which would cause him some serious health problems

403
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Speaker 1: later on. He was only allowed three visitors at prison,

404
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,560
Speaker 1: and of course that was his wife, May, his son Sonny,

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Speaker 1: and Al's own mother who was allowed to come see

406
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Speaker 1: him as well. While he was in the Atlanta prison,

407
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Speaker 1: he was actually really weak. He was having a hard

408
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Speaker 1: time standing up for himself. He was getting bullied a

409
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Speaker 1: lot because his health had taken such a bad turn,

410
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Speaker 1: and other groups of prisoners started picking up and defending

411
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Speaker 1: him kind of randomly, and he started to get some

412
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Speaker 1: pretty nice accommodations too. His room got upgraded, he got

413
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Speaker 1: a nicer bed with a more comfortable mattress, like all

414
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:47,399
Speaker 1: these kind of suspicious things that made some accusations come

415
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,399
Speaker 1: out that he was getting special treatment. Now there was

416
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,960
Speaker 1: never any evidence brought forth that this was officially happening,

417
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Speaker 1: but it was enough to get him transferred out of

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Speaker 1: Atlanta to Alcatraz. And here, of course he's on an island.

419
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Speaker 1: He's on the rock with Sean Connery. Uh, and he

420
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Speaker 1: is no longer allowed visitors. But due to good behavior,

421
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Speaker 1: he was allowed to play the banjo in the Alcatraz

422
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:17,240
Speaker 1: prison band. They were called the Rock Islanders, and they

423
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Speaker 1: played every Sunday for other inmates. I would love to

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Speaker 1: go see the Rock Island, you know, like.

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Speaker 2: Travel. Yeah, there we go play, But you just go

426
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Speaker 2: see a concert of the rock on Rock Islanders concert

427
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Speaker 2: at little striped out fit to wear.

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Speaker 1: My guess is they didn't take uh you know, it

429
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,160
Speaker 1: wasn't a public concert. Probably couldn't buy tickets. My second

430
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Speaker 1: guess is they're probably okay.

431
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Speaker 2: I mean, how good could they be.

432
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Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean I guess they don't have

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Speaker 1: you know, all they can do is practice, So maybe

434
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 1: they're great and they don't have day job.

435
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,200
Speaker 2: Story only allowed to play it when they're playing concert

436
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:56,040
Speaker 2: and they're terrible.

437
00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,240
Speaker 1: Actually. So one of the letters Al wrote home to

438
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,639
Speaker 1: his son, he talked about how he worked. Some days

439
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:05,400
Speaker 1: he was he would stitch up boots. That was his job,

440
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 1: and he was supposed to be really good at it,

441
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,239
Speaker 1: and he had days off. And he said, from up

442
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:13,200
Speaker 1: until three pm, I'm they let me play the banjo,

443
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 1: and from three pm onto the evening, I'm just writing songs. Wow. Yeah,

444
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,280
Speaker 1: so he might have plenty of time with his music artist. Yeah.

445
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,600
Speaker 1: And Al loved music. He was actually really good with music.

446
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,159
Speaker 1: He'd grown up in this Italian family. They loved music.

447
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 1: It was a big part of his life. And one

448
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 1: day he passed a piece of paper with the lyrics

449
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 1: of a song to a priest friend of his. You know,

450
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,879
Speaker 1: take these out, I want someone to have them. So

451
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,640
Speaker 1: let's go down to poetry Corner for a selection from

452
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 1: Capone's song Madonna Mia.

453
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,640
Speaker 5: In a quaint Italian garden, while the stars were all aglow.

454
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,760
Speaker 5: Once I heard a lover singing to the one that

455
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:58,120
Speaker 5: he loved. So in that quaint Italian garden, neath the

456
00:23:58,160 --> 00:23:59,359
Speaker 5: starry sky above.

457
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 2: Every night he'd serenade her with his tender song of love.

458
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:06,479
Speaker 2: Once again, I see that garden.

459
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 5: Many years have hurried by, I can see that sweet Madonna.

460
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,880
Speaker 5: There's a tear drop in her eye for her soldier

461
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 5: has departed, left his loved one.

462
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:17,440
Speaker 1: With a sigh, she.

463
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:21,119
Speaker 5: Said, I will wait forever, as he sang this.

464
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:25,199
Speaker 2: Last goodbye, kind of beautiful, lovely.

465
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 1: It was reported for a while that al Capone wrote

466
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,160
Speaker 1: this song as a tribute to May, and it might

467
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,359
Speaker 1: have been a tribute to her, but The Boston Globe

468
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:37,720
Speaker 1: reported in twenty eighteen that he actually did copy the

469
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 1: lyrics out of a song book, like this was a

470
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 1: song that had been written probably a few years earlier,

471
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: and we don't know that al ever claimed it as

472
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,919
Speaker 1: his own song, Like it's not like he signed it

473
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,919
Speaker 1: was like, hey, this, take this song out there and

474
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 1: tell everybody you what a musical genius I am. You know,

475
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 1: my opus. Yeah, But when this slip of paper made

476
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,879
Speaker 1: it to an auction in the early two thirds, that

477
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 1: was definitely the story. They were like al Capone song

478
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 1: he wrote for his wife doy Yeah.

479
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 2: You know, they got thousands of thousands more dollars then,

480
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,440
Speaker 2: just like al Capelle wrote this copy of this out of.

481
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 1: Them actually, so in nineteen ninety nine, according to Boston Globe,

482
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 1: this song went on sale for forty five thousand dollars.

483
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 1: They expected that that's what it would fetch, but it

484
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,879
Speaker 1: did not sell. It was returned to the consigner apparently,

485
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 1: and then later it was sold to a private collector.

486
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 1: That was in two thousand and nine. Now Wikipedia suggests

487
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,160
Speaker 1: that this song was put up for sale for sixty

488
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 1: five thousand dollars, but I don't know if that's what

489
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,399
Speaker 1: they paid for it or not. But Rich Larson with

490
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,920
Speaker 1: al caponefanclub dot Com had the sheet music and more

491
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:50,119
Speaker 1: than seventy years later, he described it as a tear jerker,

492
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 1: and he formed a group of musicians and a vocalist

493
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 1: to record the song, and then he released it on

494
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:56,959
Speaker 1: CD in two thousand and nine. So you can hear it.

495
00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 2: Oh that's cool.

496
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:01,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Modonomia song. But it's had quite a journey.

497
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 1: Fact of the matter is he did not write the

498
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 1: lyrics himself, but he probably did arrange this musical version

499
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,920
Speaker 1: of it because he was he was able to compose.

500
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 2: Like a Robert Burns.

501
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:14,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, kind of like that in jail. Yeah.

502
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 2: Now, May Capone kept out of the public. She only

503
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 2: resurfaced periodically to defend Al's character from rumors.

504
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,119
Speaker 1: Right, and we should say not in any lengthy interviews

505
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 1: or anything like that.

506
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 2: But once it was like even reported that she had

507
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 2: filed to divorce him, and she shot that down real hard.

508
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,440
Speaker 2: Hell no, I did not. The press like hounded her

509
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 2: all the time, especially as Al's health began to deteriorate,

510
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 2: but she always gave short positive answers. She never let

511
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 2: on that he was actually getting sicker all the time

512
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 2: from syphilis. And after al was committed to a prison

513
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 2: hospital and rumors were leaked to the press, May wrote

514
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,440
Speaker 2: to the warden requesting that she be able to visit him,

515
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 2: which the warden denied, and eventually May and the rest

516
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 2: of Alice Fan repleading for his release because his condition

517
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 2: had gotten so bad. Yeah, they were like, please let

518
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:07,160
Speaker 2: us just care for him at home or something.

519
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,680
Speaker 1: It was really bad, and of course prison healthcare was awful.

520
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,239
Speaker 1: It was reported that they were doing some experiments with

521
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: syphilis on him, Like they had these experimental treatments that

522
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:23,200
Speaker 1: are really nasty, very low chance of success. So he

523
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 1: was just getting really rough treatment. Would she would call,

524
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:28,439
Speaker 1: like there'd be a rumor in the press, like al

525
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 1: Capone's in the medical hospital, and they would have to

526
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 1: call them up, send a telegram rather and say what's

527
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 1: going on? Can I come see him? And they're like, nah, nah,

528
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 1: he's fine, don't worry about it. So it was really rough,

529
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,920
Speaker 1: and he was only getting worse. He suffered at one

530
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,119
Speaker 1: point what a prison health report called quote a sudden

531
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 1: disturbance of consciousness, described as a fainting attack or possibly

532
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 1: a hysterical episode. That was in nineteen thirty eight, and

533
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 1: this is followed by an epileptic fit over the next

534
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,640
Speaker 1: few days. After that, he got very quiet and distant,

535
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 1: like clearly his mind was changing. And he recovered to

536
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 1: the point that he felt well and he actually had

537
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 1: a really positive mood, but he had a harder time concentrating,

538
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:12,640
Speaker 1: he had a harder time moving around on his own.

539
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: And they also reported that he quote here's God and

540
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: the angels verbally reply to prayers. But al Capone himself

541
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: even admitted to the doctors that these are probably hallucinations.

542
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 1: He just liked hearing them. I think it's so interesting.

543
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 1: You're like, I know, I'm hallucinating, but it's nice. It's

544
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 1: not like they're not freaking me out.

545
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 2: I mean, that was one of the things that was

546
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 2: so like arresting. I guess about Beautiful Mind. That movie

547
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 2: Mind was how lonely he was without his I mean

548
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 2: his I mean his hallucinations, spoiling his friends. Sorry, it's

549
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 2: a very old movie, so get it together. It came

550
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 2: like twenty years ago, but you know, it was just

551
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 2: like after we you know, they put him on meds

552
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 2: to help him, and he was helped by them, but

553
00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 2: he was hella lonely and he was like one of

554
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 2: his friends back. It's just a I never would have

555
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 2: thought about it that way, because a lot of ways

556
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 2: they portray schizophrenia, especially is that it's a torment, you

557
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 2: know what I mean, Like they're like, I'm hearing these

558
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 2: voices and they're freaking me out, and they're saying mean

559
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 2: things and whatever. But it had never been presented to

560
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 2: me until that movie that they might be a comfort

561
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 2: and a friend and like someone you would miss, right.

562
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:23,239
Speaker 1: And like kind of the opposite. Sometimes I think about, like,

563
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: how wonderful would it be if I found out that

564
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 1: some of my friends were actually just hallucinations and I

565
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 1: could pop some pills and they would just go away?

566
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 1: Oh my god, ice cold, Like I just take these

567
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 1: once a day and you're gone. Damn.

568
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 2: Friends are going to start texting like.

569
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 1: Hey, who is it?

570
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 2: Who are you talking about?

571
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 1: Which? Which one of you is it?

572
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 2: Listen if you listen to the show, it's not you.

573
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 1: Exactly exactly.

574
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 2: How about that.

575
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 1: I'll tell you this. If you ask me, I'll give

576
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 1: you the honest answer.

577
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well you really.

578
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll tell you if it was you. Yeah, is

579
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: it me? No?

580
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 2: Okay, I had to ask.

581
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 1: Okay. So Capone's family was finally allowed to visit him

582
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 1: again at Alcatraz, but the first time he got to

583
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 1: see Sonny was in five years. So he had seen

584
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: him when he was fourteen and then didn't see him

585
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 1: again until he was nineteen years old. So this, you know,

586
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: his son walks in and he's like six foot two,

587
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,719
Speaker 1: he's a you know, it's nineteen thirty eight. Is a

588
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 1: grown man for nineteen years old. Back then, nineteen was

589
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 1: like you had two houses, and you were all it's

590
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 1: almost time to retire from your.

591
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 2: Job done at the salt factory or whatever, and yeah,

592
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 2: I mean Al everything else notwithstanding great dad, Apparently I

593
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 2: loved his kid a lot, and he and Sonny had

594
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 2: kept a close relationship through letters during his time at Alcatraz,

595
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 2: so even when he wasn't present present, he still tried

596
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 2: to keep a relationship going. And Al was always intent

597
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 2: on not involved Sonny in the mob. Once when he

598
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 2: was working in Chicago, Al reportedly told a friend quote,

599
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 2: I don't want to die shot in the street. I've

600
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 2: got a boy. I love that kid.

601
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 1: Yeah.

602
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 2: And then when Sonny was applying to schools, he listed

603
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 2: his father's occupation as retired and just kind of hoped

604
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 2: the name wouldn't come up. Capone unrelated to that other copone? Right, Yeah,

605
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 2: I wonder if that's like, how you know, I don't

606
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 2: know their names, Britney Schwarzenegger is trying to go to school.

607
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 2: It's just like an unrelated Schwartzenegger, just another crazy.

608
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 1: Common names.

609
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 2: And while in Alcatraz, one of Al's letters to Sonny

610
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 2: read quote, well, heart of mine, sure hope things come

611
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 2: our way for next year. Then I'll be there in

612
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 2: your arms and maybe that will sure be a happy

613
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 2: feeling for May and you, well, Sonny, keep up your

614
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 2: chin and don't worry about your dear dad.

615
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 1: So you know, he didn't want to involve his son

616
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 1: in crime. And it's almost that sort of like, I'm

617
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 1: doing this so you don't have to. And I see

618
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 1: him like and there's a really dark moment in al

619
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 1: Capone's life. It's in the movie The Untouchables, but it's

620
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 1: like way scaled down from what it was where al

621
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 1: Capone took a baseball bat to a couple of guys.

622
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: It's really brutal. And I'm, you know, picturing him in

623
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 1: this room, like I'm doing this for my son, that kid,

624
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: you know, so he doesn't have to. I my hands

625
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 1: looked like this, so his.

626
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 2: Could look like that, you know, Like, oh my god,

627
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 2: I'm not.

628
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: The sentiment you want, you know what I mean, Like

629
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 1: it's not as sweet as you think it is.

630
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 2: Al, I know, I mean, you can justify anything.

631
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, after a few years in prison, Al's health

632
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 1: had gotten so bad that in nineteen thirty nine, he

633
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 1: was released from Alcatraz to a California correctional institute where

634
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: he would get more health focused care that may appealed

635
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 1: to the court at this point, and in November of

636
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty nine, al Capone, one of the the most

637
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: notorious criminals in US history, was paroled and released after

638
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 1: only seven years, six months, and fifteen days behind bars.

639
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 1: It's one of those weird feelings in some of the

640
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: stories we do where I'm like.

641
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 6: Oh, he got to go back to his wife because

642
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 6: he was so sick, and that's really sweet. And also,

643
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 6: you know, I just said, this guy severely destroyed three

644
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 6: people's bodies with a baseball bat.

645
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 2: Right and like a lot of people on his orders, Yeah,

646
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 2: a lot of horrible things.

647
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 1: He should have probably spent the rest of his life

648
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 1: by bars.

649
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 2: Or at least the full eleven years.

650
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 1: Yeah.

651
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 2: But also, like, is that not sort of an indictment

652
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 2: of the prison system or there is that you're like,

653
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 2: you're not taking good enough care of the people in

654
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 2: your custody that they're getting out. I mean, he's not

655
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 2: really getting away with anything because he's clearly not comfortable,

656
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 2: like he's not going back to like hang out with

657
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 2: all his friends in Abote great time. But still, I

658
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 2: mean it does say something about it and Shitaly, we

659
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 2: are treating our prisoners. He can't even keep them in jail.

660
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 1: And there is something to be said about, like, you know,

661
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 1: we're going to let you go home to die in

662
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 1: your own bed, you know, like there's certainly a humaneness

663
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 1: to that that I think is important. But yeah, again,

664
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 1: larger conversation about what's the point of prison. Are we

665
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 1: doing it because we want vengeance and punishment or is

666
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,240
Speaker 1: it meant to deter and rehabilitate blah blah.

667
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:29,439
Speaker 2: Blah at all crazy, right, very complicated conversation at any rate.

668
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 1: Al Capone was so badly affected by the disease at

669
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 1: this point, not to mention his years of drug and

670
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 1: alcohol abuse, and also, of course the terrible healthcare he

671
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 1: did receive in prison that his brain had regressed to

672
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 1: that of a twelve year old, so May cared for

673
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,800
Speaker 1: him personally at their home in Miami. In nineteen forty two,

674
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 1: al became one of the first people ever to be

675
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: treated for syphilis with penicillin. They's sort of known that

676
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,280
Speaker 1: it would work, and there had been experiments with mold

677
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 1: growth treating disease for a couple of decades now, but

678
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 1: the Army had just started mass producing it in a

679
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 1: way that it could be taken specifically for syphilist now

680
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 1: one of the first guys to take it.

681
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 2: I didn't realize it was so recent in his say

682
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,359
Speaker 2: that we were yestributing penicillin's.

683
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: Early nineteen forties. So al Capone starts taking penicillin. It

684
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,759
Speaker 1: wasn't going to undo the damage that had already been done,

685
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,360
Speaker 1: but it did seem to stop the progression of the disease,

686
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:29,840
Speaker 1: and it kept him alive for several more years.

687
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,799
Speaker 2: At this point, Sonny or Albert Junior, now had kids

688
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,840
Speaker 2: of his own, and May and al visited them regularly.

689
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 2: Al delighted in spending time with his grandchildren, and the

690
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 2: FBI watched Sonny really close because they wanted to make

691
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 2: sure that he did not go into the family business.

692
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 2: But that was not ever really very likely because both

693
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:51,840
Speaker 2: his parents had such an aversion to involving him and

694
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 2: all that right. An FBI reports said quote, it is

695
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 2: known that both al and May have made a determined

696
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 2: and conscientious effort throughout the life of the boy to

697
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 2: shield him from such influences that surrounded al And to

698
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 2: preclude any possibility of his falling into a life of crime.

699
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 2: It is a parent that may has exerted a great

700
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 2: deal of effort to see that Sonny led a clean life.

701
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 2: So Sonny was a used car salesman for a while,

702
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 2: but he quit when he found out that his boss

703
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:28,280
Speaker 2: was manipulating the odometery. Wow, just like Matilda's dad, mister

704
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 2: Worm would, right.

705
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:32,839
Speaker 1: I think that's funny it Sonny like sees this one

706
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 1: crime happening and he's like, no, nope, I'm out. I'm

707
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 1: not doing that, you know.

708
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 2: I mean he might have been extra for himself, not

709
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 2: just because of his parents, but kind of because of

710
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,399
Speaker 2: his parents. I don't want to deal with all that. Yeah,

711
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 2: I cannot even next to a crime because my name

712
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 2: is Capone. So there's no way that I won't be

713
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,879
Speaker 2: implicated in some way, shape or form. Like there's stereotypes

714
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 2: about our I guess, preconceived notions about who I might be,

715
00:36:58,760 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 2: and so.

716
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 1: I have to be extra knowing full well that he's

717
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,280
Speaker 1: got the FBI watching him all the time too, and surely,

718
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 1: you know, maybe he is trying to protect his boss.

719
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 1: He's like, do you know who I am and who's

720
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 1: watching me?

721
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:11,879
Speaker 2: You should not be manipulating these daughters.

722
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 1: Right, the FBI is like, we didn't have time for that.

723
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 1: We used car salesman as like knocking his price up

724
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 1: a thousand bucks whatever.

725
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 2: I did love because we you know, we have such

726
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:25,760
Speaker 2: a stereotype of used car salesman all being like total

727
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 2: lemon sellars or whatever. That's funny. He's like, I'm going

728
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 2: to lead a clean life by selling used cars.

729
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,320
Speaker 1: And the FBI knew that May was getting six hundred

730
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 1: dollars every week just a check showed up in the mail,

731
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:39,840
Speaker 1: and that seemed to be her only source of income.

732
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 1: Very likely that that was hush money from the MOP, right,

733
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously they're gonna want to throw a little

734
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 1: money because it's Al Capone, right, like you were, you

735
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:55,320
Speaker 1: were the guy around here, so out of respect, little money, right, Yeah.

736
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 2: But also I bet they were also like, well we got

737
00:37:57,760 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 2: to pinch it off the Why sure. I mean, you know,

738
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 2: if you go to jail and stuff like, you can't

739
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 2: just leave the ladies out to drive.

740
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:04,840
Speaker 1: Got to take care of family.

741
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 2: You're in the family here, the kids.

742
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 1: Well, the mob had restructured quite a bit since Capone

743
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 1: was incarcerated, but he still knew a lot about their operations,

744
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 1: and this made things a lot harder for May because

745
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 1: as al was getting sicker, he became prone to talking

746
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 1: to himself or invisible guests at their home. So, according

747
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 1: to the Vintage News dot Com, May had to be

748
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 1: extra careful to keep him away from the press because

749
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 1: if he, you know, said something he shouldn't have quote

750
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,280
Speaker 1: old friends might have had to pay him a visit

751
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,840
Speaker 1: and silence him for good. So not only has she

752
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 1: taken care of him, she's also like keeping him from

753
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 1: getting himself.

754
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 2: Killed right by a guy who's definitely going to cry

755
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 2: a single tear before he pulls the tiger those why

756
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 2: do you make me do this?

757
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 1: Like what I'm trying to take of, There's like a

758
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 1: movie or something where someone's protecting someone they love who has,

759
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 1: you know, a mental disability of some sort, and they're like,

760
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:06,280
Speaker 1: I got, I'm working so hard to keep you from

761
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 1: doing something? What is that movie work? It's so hard

762
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 1: to keep you from getting yourself killed? Right? Oh my god,

763
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,840
Speaker 1: I know what I'm thinking of? What Ozark?

764
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 2: Oh of course, Oh my god, that was very upsetting. Well, anyway,

765
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 2: that whole storyline, if you want to feel it's good,

766
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:28,439
Speaker 2: it's good.

767
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 1: It's so good and one of the best monologues on TV.

768
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 2: I'll just say that the actor is amazing.

769
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's so good, all right. Anyway, anyway, no spoiling,

770
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 1: so Alice continuing to get worse and worse. May is

771
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 1: trying desperately to take care of him, and she did

772
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: make sure that he got the best medical care possible,

773
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:47,359
Speaker 1: and she made sure that he was comfortable in their

774
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 1: Miami home. But Al suffered a stroke in January of

775
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 1: nineteen forty seven, and shortly after contracted pneumonia. On January

776
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 1: twenty fifth, nineteen forty seven, Al Capone died of cardiac arrest.

777
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:04,279
Speaker 1: May was so devastated when they closed his eyes as

778
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,879
Speaker 1: she collapsed, and she needed medical attention herself that night.

779
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:08,760
Speaker 2: Oh wow.

780
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 1: But she and Sonny would live under Al's shadow for

781
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 1: many years to come. We'll take a quick break, here's

782
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 1: some fine words from our sponsors, and we'll come back

783
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 1: and talk all about that right after this. Welcome back, everybody.

784
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,880
Speaker 2: So May had loved Al so much and seemed to

785
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 2: be focused on his well being for most of his life. Yeah,

786
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 2: their granddaughter once said, quote, it's as if the house

787
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 2: died when he did. May was a very devoted grandmother.

788
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 2: She spent most of her time with Sonny, his wife

789
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:47,240
Speaker 2: and their children, but she was always really lonely and sad,

790
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 2: and she reportedly never slept in their bedroom again.

791
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 1: Wow.

792
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 2: She told her grandchildren quote, I had such happy times

793
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 2: there with Papa, and he's not there, and I don't

794
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 2: want to go into that room anymore. Oh my god,

795
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 2: takes my heart.

796
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 1: It does like that. It's so weird to be like,

797
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,399
Speaker 1: oh my god, al Capone, let's breaking my heart here.

798
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 1: But love is love, you know what I'm saying.

799
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that's what I like about this

800
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 2: show is that, you know, as terrible as some of

801
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 2: the people that we've covered have been, yeah, the emotion

802
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,879
Speaker 2: is still so real and it's so human. Yeah, and

803
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 2: it is still romantic at times. I mean not Carl Tandler,

804
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 2: but like a lot of them, it's just like, oh,

805
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:27,879
Speaker 2: they fell in love. Look a normal person, but they

806
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 2: just chose a really shitty way to act to other people.

807
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 1: I guess, Yeah, And it just shows to me that

808
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,720
Speaker 1: it's like there's like, oh, I wish we could stop

809
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 1: being so horrible. And it's such a like hippy hippy

810
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:41,959
Speaker 1: thing to say, but I truly wish we could stop

811
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,839
Speaker 1: being so horrible each other, because everybody wants the same thing, right,

812
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 1: Like if you're a murderer, a thief or a you know,

813
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,840
Speaker 1: if you're a politician, or you're just a good old,

814
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,239
Speaker 1: you know, normal ass person living a good life, like

815
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:57,840
Speaker 1: you just want to be loved and love somebody, right.

816
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:03,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true everybody. Well, may became increasingly pious. Aside

817
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 2: from seeing her family, she basically only left home to

818
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 2: attend Mass, and she was also a diligent observer of

819
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:13,760
Speaker 2: Omertach the mafia code, where you don't talk to nobody

820
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 2: about nothing else.

821
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, you keep your mouth, just keep your mouth shut.

822
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 1: You don't say nothing, talk about the business.

823
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 2: According to burg Green quote, not once did she yield

824
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 2: to the temptation to give an interview in defense of

825
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 2: her husband.

826
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 1: Must have been so hard to because we know she

827
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 1: loved him so much and she really hated the attacks

828
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 1: on his character.

829
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 2: I mean, then the fact that she would come out

830
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 2: and be like, I'm not divorcing him. Yeah, got that idea.

831
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 2: That shit ain't real, like h it tells you. Yeah,

832
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 2: she was clearly fiercely protective of him in a lot

833
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:43,440
Speaker 2: of ways.

834
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:45,839
Speaker 1: But we also learned in the first episode about how

835
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:48,279
Speaker 1: that backfired the one time that she did come out

836
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:50,720
Speaker 1: because her son, the Sonny, was getting bullied in school

837
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:53,799
Speaker 1: after al you know, had gotten arrested for something else

838
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 1: at some point, and she was like, look, can everybody

839
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,280
Speaker 1: just keep our names out of the press? Al Capone

840
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 1: he's not so bad blah blah blah, and my son's

841
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 1: getting bullied, and the press turned it into al Capone's

842
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: wife says his behavior is so bad that her son

843
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:10,319
Speaker 1: is is taking the blame for it, you know, so

844
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:12,879
Speaker 1: it ended up looking bad. So she probably knows too.

845
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 1: There's no winning.

846
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 2: There's a yeah, I can't say the right thing, yeah,

847
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 2: at any at any point.

848
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 1: And that's still true. I mean you get all the

849
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 1: time we're seeing headlines manipulated to make something look more

850
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 1: absurd than.

851
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,759
Speaker 2: It is, especially if you're on the defense. Yeah, Like

852
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:27,799
Speaker 2: if you're a the defense side, there's I mean, it's

853
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 2: like impossible to sound like you're not trying to cover

854
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,320
Speaker 2: your ass or you're talking shit or justifying or whatever.

855
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, but one particular public event did get May and

856
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,319
Speaker 1: Sonny all fired up, and that is going to give

857
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 1: us a great, big crossover Alert no one of our

858
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 1: previous episodes is coming in hot, because in nineteen fifty nine,

859
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 1: a TV studio made a show about Elliot Ness and

860
00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 1: his incorruptible band of prohibision bureau agents who helped take

861
00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 1: down Capone. These men had been called the Untouchables by

862
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 1: the press, and that is what the title of this

863
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 1: four season TV series was called. And of course we

864
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:13,720
Speaker 1: know the movie in nineteen eighty seven with Kevin Costner,

865
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 1: also The Untouchables. But this TV show was greenlit and

866
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:20,759
Speaker 1: produced by none other. And if you know the show, well,

867
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 1: you might already know because we talked about it in

868
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 1: their episode by our old friends lucieale Ball and Desi Arnez.

869
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 4: Oh.

870
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, The Untouchables was one of the big, huge shows

871
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 1: that made Desilu one of the biggest TV studios in

872
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 1: the country. Lucy green lit the show herself, Desi produced it.

873
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:45,920
Speaker 1: Desilu Productions made a two part pilot based on elliot

874
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 1: Ness's memoir, and this pilot ended with Capone's conviction, so

875
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,399
Speaker 1: that the beginning of the show was all about them

876
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 1: going after al Capone. Those two episodes aired on CBS.

877
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 1: CBS declined to pick up the show. Afterwards and ended

878
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 1: up running it for four years. And The Untouchables is

879
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 1: basically the predecessor to countless cop dramas that we see

880
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 1: on TV today. Right, once again, Desi Arnez set in

881
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:16,879
Speaker 1: the tone for TV for a century, And.

882
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 2: Of course cop dramas are the predecessor to my favorite

883
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 2: hit TOOM for the nine nine. So thank you, Desia.

884
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 1: Currently in her fourteenth re watch of Brooklyn.

885
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:28,799
Speaker 2: I already did Parks and rec and the Good Place,

886
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 2: you know, so it's time to go back.

887
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. Well, it's not just that this show

888
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 1: caught the attention of May and Sonny. Desi Yarnez actually

889
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:41,359
Speaker 1: knew that he was going to get a phone call

890
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 1: about it because he had been childhood classmates with Sonny

891
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:52,400
Speaker 1: Capona after al moved his family down to Miami. Sonny

892
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,800
Speaker 1: and Desi Arnez were in the same grade school together

893
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 1: and they were actually really good friends. Oh now, they

894
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:03,239
Speaker 1: hadn't seen each other in years, but Desi knew that

895
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 1: this series was going to bring Sonny out of the woodwork.

896
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:08,880
Speaker 2: So when the news broke that Desi Lou was adapting

897
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:12,800
Speaker 2: Nessa's book into his show, long before they even finished production,

898
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 2: Sonny got in touch with Desi and said, quote why

899
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,839
Speaker 2: you Why did you have to do it? Because he'd

900
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 2: always hoped that Elliott Ness's autobiography would just kind of

901
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 2: fizzle out. People don't like to read. You know, this

902
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:27,840
Speaker 2: is not gonna be a problem. But this show brought

903
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 2: it to every house in America, and Desi made the

904
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 2: argument that if he had not produced the show, someone

905
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:38,320
Speaker 2: else quote with less appreciation for the Capone family would

906
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:40,080
Speaker 2: make the show. So he's kind of like, I'm the

907
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:42,439
Speaker 2: best person to do this. It's gonna happen no matter what.

908
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 1: Right now.

909
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:46,839
Speaker 2: The call ended abruptly when Sonny, furious with Desi, said

910
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 2: I'm gonna sue you, and he hung up. Now, Desi

911
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:52,839
Speaker 2: actually did handle the character of Capone with restraint. After this,

912
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:55,799
Speaker 2: he kind of glossed over his brutality, right although it

913
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:58,320
Speaker 2: was still a shockingly violent show for its time.

914
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 1: That baseball scene, that baseball bat scene we talked about

915
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:05,239
Speaker 1: earlier was cut, okay from it was in the script apparently,

916
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 1: and they ended up not using it. Now some people

917
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:10,280
Speaker 1: say that never would have made it to air anyway,

918
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 1: But Desi Arnez had told Sonny in this phone call,

919
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:15,799
Speaker 1: like look, I'll do my best to not make your

920
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 1: dad look too bad and he helped a little.

921
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:21,719
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, so it might have happened anyway, but it

922
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 2: might have yit Deasi. So Sonny and May did sue

923
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 2: Desilu and CBS for their depiction of al Capone. They

924
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:32,359
Speaker 2: said it infringed on their privacy and it brought them

925
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 2: humiliation and shame, and Sonny said he even had to

926
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 2: move cities to protect his kids who were getting bullied

927
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:41,319
Speaker 2: in school, kind of like Sonny himself had experienced. Right,

928
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:45,839
Speaker 2: But the Chicago Circuit Court rejected the suit, and even

929
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 2: after going to the Supreme Court, it was rejected as

930
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:51,440
Speaker 2: well because they decided that privacy rights don't extend to

931
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 2: the next of ken.

932
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, so you.

933
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 2: Can say whatever you want about al Capone.

934
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 1: Yeah? So is any TV show could come out and

935
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 1: talk about Yo Mama and say whatever they want and

936
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:02,920
Speaker 1: you can't do nothing about it.

937
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:06,240
Speaker 2: That seems kind of weird because of where it bleeds

938
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 2: into your life.

939
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, is kind of affect. They're like if they and

940
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:15,120
Speaker 1: the show didn't depict May or Sonny, So they're like, so, hey,

941
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:17,319
Speaker 1: we didn't say anything about you. I guess that makes sense,

942
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:20,520
Speaker 1: you know, Yeah, I don't know. It's rocky for the

943
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 1: legal scholars, not for me. And it wasn't just the

944
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:27,719
Speaker 1: Capones who were upset about this show either. Other Italian Americans,

945
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 1: including All Blue Eyes Frank Sinatra, called out the show

946
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 1: for promoting negative stereotypes. He's like, you.

947
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:40,880
Speaker 7: Can't say shit about Italians beautiful. We're just as good

948
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:42,800
Speaker 7: as everybody else.

949
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:45,840
Speaker 1: So why I don't want.

950
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:49,799
Speaker 7: To see this TV shown because otherwise will come to

951
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 7: your house with the bat.

952
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:54,319
Speaker 1: Frank Sinatra also very involved in the.

953
00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 2: Mob, so I was just about to say, I mean,

954
00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 2: it's not like his mop. Your friends were not like, hey, Frank, yeah,

955
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 2: you gotta say, you gotta get out there. You have

956
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 2: the face of the mob.

957
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 1: Basically, well, Italian American groups did organize protests and boycotts

958
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:09,840
Speaker 1: for all being portrayed as criminals and mobsters. And I

959
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 1: mean this was a big problem on the show. Every

960
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:14,799
Speaker 1: time there was like some low level henchmen, it was

961
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:19,799
Speaker 1: always like Johnny Tucci or you know Barbarrino Barbarelli, you

962
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:20,760
Speaker 1: know whatever.

963
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 2: Yes, Barbarino Barbarelli. Hey a great character.

964
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:27,760
Speaker 1: He beats Lasagna and I'm going to break your knees.

965
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 1: You know, they would do stuff like that, and I'm

966
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:33,719
Speaker 1: mocking them for doing it, not saying that that's what

967
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 1: I would say now.

968
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:36,840
Speaker 2: And it makes sense because we talked about in the

969
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:39,399
Speaker 2: first episode with May and Al getting together, how much

970
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 2: Irish people, you know, they were kind of it's that racism,

971
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 2: things like how much closer you are to whiteness is

972
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 2: you're closer to power. So they'd be like, I'm trying

973
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 2: to say, Italian people ain't white, you know, And so

974
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 2: there was like a lot of that going on. Yeah,

975
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:52,760
Speaker 2: at this time.

976
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 1: And as a person with a lot of Italian background

977
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 1: in my own family who very white myself, I am

978
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:06,719
Speaker 1: a very white person. That's so insane to me. I mean,

979
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:08,680
Speaker 1: it's it's ridiculous, right.

980
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:10,279
Speaker 2: And also Irish you have a.

981
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 1: B oh yeah, my mom's got a ton of Irish

982
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:15,719
Speaker 1: blood too, So yeah, I'm like, yeah, man, maybe I

983
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:19,359
Speaker 1: wouldn't do so well in the nineteen thirties. That's sure

984
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:21,240
Speaker 1: that any of us do so well in the nineteen thirties.

985
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:21,879
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying.

986
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:24,560
Speaker 2: None of us were made for the nineteen thirties, and

987
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:25,800
Speaker 2: that's why we're here today.

988
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:30,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, but after four days of picketing by these Italian

989
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:34,080
Speaker 1: American groups. The main sponsor of the show, Ellen m Cigarettes,

990
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 1: said all right, we're going to drop our sponsorship. We

991
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:39,880
Speaker 1: hear you. You know, we're going to change our Facebook

992
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 1: Facebook profile picture to an Italian flag. You know, we're

993
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:46,960
Speaker 1: all going to be seen eating stromboli out in public.

994
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:51,839
Speaker 1: You know, we're doing our part sponsorship. But this did

995
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:55,080
Speaker 1: work because after this, Desi Arnez and ABC announced a

996
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 1: three point manifesto for the show moving forward and for

997
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:00,719
Speaker 1: I think all ABC shows. The first was that there

998
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:03,799
Speaker 1: would be no more fictional hoodlums with Italian names in

999
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:08,319
Speaker 1: future productions, no more PiZZ Lasagna breaking the jobs. Right,

1000
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 1: if it wasn't a real historical person, they weren't going

1001
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 1: to make one.

1002
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 2: Up, okay.

1003
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 1: Number two was that more attention would be paid to

1004
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:18,759
Speaker 1: the character of Rico Rossi, who was elliot Ness's right

1005
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 1: hand man, so he was one of the law enforcers,

1006
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 1: and they were like, let's make him more of a hero.

1007
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 2: Because I'm assuming he's Italian. Yeah, yeah, it makes sense.

1008
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:29,360
Speaker 1: And number three, an emphasis would be given to the

1009
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 1: quote formidable influence of Italian American officials in reducing crime

1010
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 1: and focus on the quote great contributions made to American

1011
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:42,359
Speaker 1: culture by Americans of Italian descent. So it was very

1012
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 1: much like that sort of I don't know, I feel

1013
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 1: like we've seen it in recent years in media with

1014
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:51,400
Speaker 1: black culture, especially where they're like, okay, all right, we

1015
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 1: have been super racist. We're going to try and do

1016
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 1: better and focus on a few things, and you know,

1017
00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:56,920
Speaker 1: some progress.

1018
00:51:57,080 --> 00:51:59,600
Speaker 2: I'm a little jealous that only took four days of picketing.

1019
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 2: I mean, you know that wouldn't work well.

1020
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 1: Back then. The corporations had not yet learned how to

1021
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:07,320
Speaker 1: dodge that kind of stuff, so they had to be

1022
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:10,399
Speaker 1: a little more responsive to protests because you know, they

1023
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 1: hadn't completely rewritten the laws in their favor yet. Right,

1024
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:15,839
Speaker 1: But that this is probably what made him start working

1025
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:16,440
Speaker 1: on Oh.

1026
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 2: Surely, I guess maybe some pencil necks in here.

1027
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1028
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:22,640
Speaker 2: Now, overall, as other women of her era were stepping

1029
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:26,800
Speaker 2: up and being more vocal, May was looking for anonymity

1030
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:30,680
Speaker 2: in the fight against prohibition. She aggressively stayed out of it,

1031
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:34,319
Speaker 2: probably because her husband had profited from the laws of right.

1032
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:36,160
Speaker 2: Had he to say, and I don't really want you

1033
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:39,000
Speaker 2: to stop prohibition because it's been really a.

1034
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:41,879
Speaker 1: Boon for me, or even if she did, she might

1035
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:45,000
Speaker 1: get some side eyes like, oh, yeah, you always had

1036
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:47,080
Speaker 1: a real problem with illegal booze, didn't she?

1037
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:49,400
Speaker 2: Sure, although that I feel like that would make it

1038
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 2: more credible. Even though I have profited off the prohibition law,

1039
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:54,680
Speaker 2: I think we should all get rid of it.

1040
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:57,320
Speaker 1: I have all the money I need, so let's stop.

1041
00:52:57,280 --> 00:52:59,959
Speaker 2: Now that I'm done making money. But it was report

1042
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 2: that she did want the law repealed because many mothers

1043
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:05,400
Speaker 2: of the time did not want their sons growing up

1044
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:09,719
Speaker 2: quote in the hip flask speakeasy atmosphere that polluted their

1045
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:10,360
Speaker 2: own youth.

1046
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:11,520
Speaker 1: Sure that makes sense.

1047
00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 2: So yeah, she reportedly was like, I'm good with it

1048
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:16,720
Speaker 2: going away. But she just never took a public stance

1049
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,920
Speaker 2: on the matter. And while other mob wives had written

1050
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:22,279
Speaker 2: books about their wild lives, you know, getting on that

1051
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 2: memoir train, may never wrote or published anything. She allegedly

1052
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:30,440
Speaker 2: even burned all of her diaries and the love letters

1053
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:32,799
Speaker 2: al sent her from prison so that no one could

1054
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:33,839
Speaker 2: read them after her death.

1055
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:36,879
Speaker 1: Wow, that's that takes. That takes something I don't have

1056
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:40,360
Speaker 1: because I'm sentimental, you know, I know, I agree, I

1057
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:44,600
Speaker 1: got these love letters. These will outlast me. Seriously, what

1058
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:46,120
Speaker 1: if I need to read them when I'm lonely in

1059
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:48,000
Speaker 1: eighty six years old? Yact what I.

1060
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:49,799
Speaker 2: Was about to say, It seems like something you would

1061
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:52,319
Speaker 2: more have put in your will, like, Sonny, make sure

1062
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:54,719
Speaker 2: you burn all my shit after I've bead But she's like,

1063
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 2: I'm gonna do it so that I see that it

1064
00:53:56,640 --> 00:53:59,480
Speaker 2: was done. Yeah, Like that's kind of a sacrifice.

1065
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:02,640
Speaker 1: Well, also, you look at someone who grew up in

1066
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:06,080
Speaker 1: the early twentieth century America, she's probably not very sentimental.

1067
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:09,239
Speaker 1: It's probably used to things like being like, oh, this

1068
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:12,279
Speaker 1: journal my great great grandfather wrote, but I can't start

1069
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:15,360
Speaker 1: a fire for the soup tonight, so here it's kindling.

1070
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:17,760
Speaker 1: Now you know that's so true.

1071
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 2: I got there. I was thinking about that because there

1072
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 2: so many of our stories are about letters getting lost

1073
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:25,680
Speaker 2: or aren't around anymore. They got burned or destroyed or whatever.

1074
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:28,160
Speaker 2: And I'm like, well, how could you you know? In

1075
00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:30,279
Speaker 2: my mind, I'm like, how could you destroy a walk

1076
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:33,680
Speaker 2: Wootman letter to about or whatever. But at the time,

1077
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:36,880
Speaker 2: of course, you're cleaning out, you know, your grandma's apartment

1078
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:39,600
Speaker 2: or whatever, and it's stacked full of letters because there's

1079
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:41,759
Speaker 2: no phone calls, so you're just like, obviously, I'm gonna

1080
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:43,879
Speaker 2: burn this happy. These things are just like, hey bitch,

1081
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 2: where's my shit?

1082
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:46,759
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter for real.

1083
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:50,560
Speaker 2: So yeah, anyway, so she burned all that shit, and

1084
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:53,400
Speaker 2: then she eventually sold the mansion. She moved to a

1085
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:57,120
Speaker 2: retirement home in Hollywood, Florida, where she lived until nineteen

1086
00:54:57,160 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 2: eighty six, when she passed at eighty nine years old.

1087
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:04,320
Speaker 1: Well now, Sonny ended up changing his name to Albert

1088
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:08,239
Speaker 1: Francis Brown because, according to his lawyer, quote, he was

1089
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:10,160
Speaker 1: just sick and tired of fighting the name.

1090
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:11,160
Speaker 2: Can't believe.

1091
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:14,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's true. I mean, he mostly was fine. He

1092
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:18,719
Speaker 1: did get arrested once for like really petty shoplifting, like

1093
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,319
Speaker 1: a pack of cigarettes or something, and they arrested him

1094
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 1: and he was like, everybody steals a little something now,

1095
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 1: and then I just yeah, right. But he did live

1096
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:32,239
Speaker 1: a quiet, law abiding life. He married three times, and

1097
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:35,279
Speaker 1: when he died in July of two thousand and four,

1098
00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:39,680
Speaker 1: his wife America told a reporter quote, al Capone has

1099
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:43,080
Speaker 1: been dead a long long time. His son had nothing

1100
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:45,279
Speaker 1: to do with him. Let him rest in peace. For

1101
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:47,759
Speaker 1: crying out loud. He suffered enough in his life for

1102
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:50,480
Speaker 1: being who he was, So we can imagine that things

1103
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:53,640
Speaker 1: were kind of tough for Albert Francis Brown. You know,

1104
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:57,640
Speaker 1: how do you escape the shadow of al Capone?

1105
00:55:57,719 --> 00:55:57,959
Speaker 3: Right?

1106
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:03,520
Speaker 1: I mean this guy was, first of all, like Laurence Bergreen,

1107
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:05,239
Speaker 1: who wrote the book that we've been quoting for the

1108
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:09,480
Speaker 1: most part, said al Capone was quote the best known,

1109
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:13,319
Speaker 1: least understood gangster of all And that's got for someone

1110
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:15,520
Speaker 1: who's close to him. That's got to be so hard

1111
00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:20,560
Speaker 1: because we probably understand this better today. The image of

1112
00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:24,200
Speaker 1: you in the press is nothing like what you're like

1113
00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:26,839
Speaker 1: to the people who know and love you. Right, And

1114
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 1: that's not to say al Capone was not a monster.

1115
00:56:29,719 --> 00:56:33,560
Speaker 1: He absolutely murdered a bunch of people, committed a bunch

1116
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:36,440
Speaker 1: of crimes drugs. You know, he was out there pushing

1117
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:38,920
Speaker 1: drugs on the street, like a lot of bad stuff

1118
00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:40,320
Speaker 1: and a lot of bad things to happen to a

1119
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:43,680
Speaker 1: lot of you know, otherwise probably good people because of him.

1120
00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:44,040
Speaker 2: Right.

1121
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:49,360
Speaker 1: But also the picture they paint, the idea that everyone

1122
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:51,520
Speaker 1: who ever would come up and try to talk to

1123
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:56,120
Speaker 1: this kid about his dad is probably also totally inaccurate

1124
00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:59,520
Speaker 1: or fictitious or you know, blown out of proportion.

1125
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:02,960
Speaker 2: Well, and Sonny doesn't know that. Al, he knows a

1126
00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:05,239
Speaker 2: different al right. Like That's the other thing that I

1127
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:08,480
Speaker 2: find fascinating about our show sometimes is that when you're

1128
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:12,960
Speaker 2: focusing on these intimate lives and the internal feelings and

1129
00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:17,520
Speaker 2: emotions of somebody, that's that multitude bring Walt Whitman again, right,

1130
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:20,720
Speaker 2: that's those multitudes where you're like, there's a soft person

1131
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:22,720
Speaker 2: in here. This is a guy who loved his kid,

1132
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:24,520
Speaker 2: and he probably played catch with him, and he was

1133
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:26,920
Speaker 2: super nice to his wife, and you know what I mean.

1134
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:29,720
Speaker 2: At home, right, he's a great guy. Right, and then

1135
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:32,840
Speaker 2: outside of the home, he's something else. But Sonny only

1136
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:36,720
Speaker 2: knew one side of him. He probably didn't want to

1137
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:40,400
Speaker 2: hear about the other sides at all, so he could

1138
00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:44,320
Speaker 2: maintain his own memories and the person he respected and loved.

1139
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:46,720
Speaker 2: I mean, that's really difficult, I think for anyone with

1140
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:51,040
Speaker 2: a very infamous or famous relative, you know what I mean.

1141
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:54,120
Speaker 1: It's yeah, and it's so it's tough. We go back

1142
00:57:54,160 --> 00:57:55,919
Speaker 1: to part one, We look at how tod al get

1143
00:57:55,920 --> 00:57:57,680
Speaker 1: into this, because sometimes I'm like, Al, you could have

1144
00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:01,680
Speaker 1: been a very successful businessman. He was really good at accounting,

1145
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:03,960
Speaker 1: He had like a legit job at a construction firm.

1146
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:06,640
Speaker 1: You know, he was raising his family. Everything was fine,

1147
00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:09,880
Speaker 1: and then his dad died. He got depressed and Johnny

1148
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:12,040
Speaker 1: Torreo showed up and said, how'd you like to be

1149
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:16,880
Speaker 1: one of the richest people in the world. And money corrupts,

1150
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:21,920
Speaker 1: you know, and also, like, you know, his situation, while fine,

1151
00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:24,600
Speaker 1: was probably not great, and he was depressed because his

1152
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:27,160
Speaker 1: dad died, and he was also taking care of his

1153
00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:29,800
Speaker 1: mother because his older brothers weren't doing very well financially.

1154
00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:34,400
Speaker 1: So all these factors come together and al Capone's like, okay,

1155
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:39,439
Speaker 1: I'll get into organized crime. Then undiagnosed syphilis case makes

1156
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:43,360
Speaker 1: him crazy and he turns into this violent monster. He

1157
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:46,120
Speaker 1: was a pretty violent guy to begin with, not saying

1158
00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:50,200
Speaker 1: he wasn't, but they a lot of these scholars are

1159
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:52,920
Speaker 1: saying syphilis was a big part of why al Capone

1160
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:56,720
Speaker 1: was so brutal. Yeah, and so it's just this perfect

1161
00:58:56,800 --> 00:59:00,200
Speaker 1: storm that creates this horrible person who probably otherwise to have

1162
00:59:00,200 --> 00:59:02,920
Speaker 1: been a perfectly good person. And that's kind of sad.

1163
00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:06,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, true, we just can't divorce people from their circumstance rights.

1164
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:09,480
Speaker 2: Because he came up in a violent world, right, So

1165
00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:12,000
Speaker 2: that's another thing that makes it hard sometimes. Go again

1166
00:59:12,040 --> 00:59:14,800
Speaker 2: with the prison conversation. Yeah, where you're like, obviously you're

1167
00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:17,800
Speaker 2: hurting people, you're doing crazy things, you need to be

1168
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:20,520
Speaker 2: removed from society, Like you have proven that you're not

1169
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:24,280
Speaker 2: a reliable roommate for the rest of us. But there's

1170
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:26,919
Speaker 2: also so much to be said about if you grow

1171
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:29,479
Speaker 2: up in a violent place where that's your only chance

1172
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:33,000
Speaker 2: of surviving, you're stupid to not be a brutal person, right, Like,

1173
00:59:33,080 --> 00:59:36,520
Speaker 2: it's not smart. Yeah, it's not a survival instinct. We

1174
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:40,040
Speaker 2: as humans are trying to survive. So anyway, it's just

1175
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:42,440
Speaker 2: one of those things that makes it hard to Yeah,

1176
00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:45,720
Speaker 2: because humans are very complicated. We don't have one thing.

1177
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:48,280
Speaker 2: We're not all malice, we're not all good, you know.

1178
00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:53,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you look at another very common denominator in

1179
00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:55,960
Speaker 1: most crime activity in this country. He grew up in

1180
00:59:56,000 --> 01:00:01,000
Speaker 1: a very poor neighborhood, but an under certain neighborhood at least,

1181
01:00:01,120 --> 01:00:02,920
Speaker 1: you know, or is full of Italian Americans who are

1182
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:04,680
Speaker 1: very looked down on. They probably had a hard time

1183
01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:07,280
Speaker 1: getting out of that neighborhood, didn't have a lot of

1184
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:12,400
Speaker 1: opportunities because of racism and what happens then a group

1185
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:15,400
Speaker 1: of people go to all the teenagers and say, hey,

1186
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:16,920
Speaker 1: why don't you come work for me. You can make

1187
01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:18,680
Speaker 1: some money, Yeah, have some fun and you can go

1188
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:20,600
Speaker 1: spend it down at the five and dime, but you

1189
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:22,240
Speaker 1: can give your mom some of it and she can

1190
01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:26,440
Speaker 1: make a good dinner tonight. Like what attempting opportunity that

1191
01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:30,480
Speaker 1: grown ass criminals are making to young men, you know,

1192
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:34,160
Speaker 1: who are not only impressionable, but kind of desperate for

1193
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:36,800
Speaker 1: a something to do and be something to make their

1194
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:40,040
Speaker 1: lives better. Yeah, So, like you said, of course he

1195
01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:43,120
Speaker 1: grew up ready to be a criminal. That was normal

1196
01:00:43,560 --> 01:00:48,000
Speaker 1: to him. So not to say that plenty of kids

1197
01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:50,360
Speaker 1: in that neighborhood didn't grow up to be criminals. And

1198
01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:52,840
Speaker 1: there's not a choice at a certain point you make

1199
01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:57,080
Speaker 1: that you're responsible for, because there is. But I don't know,

1200
01:00:57,120 --> 01:00:58,840
Speaker 1: we just we have such a hard time looking at

1201
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:01,200
Speaker 1: the circumstances that you enterate crime in here. We're so

1202
01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:06,040
Speaker 1: focused on what we do after Yeah, crime that uh

1203
01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:09,080
Speaker 1: that we were not We're really not good at preventing it.

1204
01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:12,320
Speaker 1: We really think that oh, if we scare people with

1205
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:16,760
Speaker 1: the punishments enough, they just won't do it. Like people

1206
01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:19,600
Speaker 1: aren't doing it because they think they can get away

1207
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:21,200
Speaker 1: with it, or they just want to because it's fun.

1208
01:01:21,240 --> 01:01:23,320
Speaker 1: They're doing it because they kind of have to, or

1209
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:24,840
Speaker 1: they see it as their only opportunity.

1210
01:01:25,040 --> 01:01:28,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, And like well even experts like recently, not

1211
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:33,200
Speaker 2: that recently even came out and said, yeah, crime does pay,

1212
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:36,000
Speaker 2: but like, oh fucking does, and a lot of people

1213
01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:39,320
Speaker 2: don't get caught, you know, or especially if you're freaking

1214
01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 2: al Capone and you got all the cops on in

1215
01:01:42,040 --> 01:01:45,120
Speaker 2: politicians and you locket, how can you ever feel fear

1216
01:01:45,360 --> 01:01:49,160
Speaker 2: of that retribution? You know, like there's nothing anyway, We're

1217
01:01:49,160 --> 01:01:53,720
Speaker 2: bad at prevention because it's not sexy. But but it

1218
01:01:54,120 --> 01:01:57,600
Speaker 2: is annoying the conversation because you're like, I'd rather know

1219
01:01:57,720 --> 01:02:01,240
Speaker 2: that you tried really hard to keep someone from becoming

1220
01:02:01,240 --> 01:02:03,680
Speaker 2: a criminal and then say, well, they chose it anyway,

1221
01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:07,200
Speaker 2: and now we can react to that that choice. But

1222
01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:09,920
Speaker 2: if I know, wow, you came from a place where

1223
01:02:09,920 --> 01:02:12,000
Speaker 2: like literally no one gave a shit about you, so

1224
01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:15,120
Speaker 2: you started doing bad things. It's like, well, what did

1225
01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:15,760
Speaker 2: you expect?

1226
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:15,920
Speaker 1: Ye?

1227
01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:19,400
Speaker 2: Anyway, But I do feel sorry for Sonny that he was,

1228
01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:21,760
Speaker 2: you know, having he was trying so hard not to

1229
01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:25,960
Speaker 2: be his father, and he is still associated that he

1230
01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:28,320
Speaker 2: had to change his name. That kind of sucks.

1231
01:02:29,120 --> 01:02:32,080
Speaker 1: There are a lot of Capone descendants out there somewhere,

1232
01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:34,160
Speaker 1: but again probably last name Brown.

1233
01:02:35,160 --> 01:02:37,640
Speaker 2: Oh wait a minute, could it be?

1234
01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:41,480
Speaker 1: Could it be you're the descendant of the Earl of

1235
01:02:41,600 --> 01:02:44,520
Speaker 1: Rochester and al Capone Dudley?

1236
01:02:44,520 --> 01:02:50,440
Speaker 2: Than it could be. Maybe that's it. On one side,

1237
01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:55,240
Speaker 2: we got Dudley maybe sleeping with the Queen, the Virgin

1238
01:02:55,320 --> 01:02:58,840
Speaker 2: Queen Man. So you're on the other side we got

1239
01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:01,040
Speaker 2: Copones speculation station.

1240
01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:04,600
Speaker 1: The blood in your veins is the air to the

1241
01:03:04,600 --> 01:03:07,000
Speaker 1: throne of England and also the air to the Chicago

1242
01:03:07,040 --> 01:03:07,640
Speaker 1: crime outfit.

1243
01:03:07,880 --> 01:03:09,400
Speaker 2: All right, either one of y'all that want to get

1244
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:14,960
Speaker 2: in touch with my just Desserts.

1245
01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:15,960
Speaker 1: You would be either very good or very bad at

1246
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:18,200
Speaker 1: both of those jobs, because part of me thinks you

1247
01:03:18,240 --> 01:03:23,280
Speaker 1: would bring an organizational mindset, an administrative mindset that they've

1248
01:03:23,320 --> 01:03:26,320
Speaker 1: probably been lacking for a long time, and a humility

1249
01:03:26,360 --> 01:03:27,880
Speaker 1: that they could probably stand.

1250
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:31,520
Speaker 2: To have to the crime to.

1251
01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:34,880
Speaker 1: The Royal family and the Chicago crime outfit. I see,

1252
01:03:35,040 --> 01:03:39,000
Speaker 1: And part of me thinks you would just hate it

1253
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:41,720
Speaker 1: so much. Oh, you'd be too nice. You'd be too sweet.

1254
01:03:42,560 --> 01:03:44,400
Speaker 2: I would not like it. I would not like it.

1255
01:03:44,680 --> 01:03:46,480
Speaker 2: It would have to be a sitcom situation where I

1256
01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:48,960
Speaker 2: come in and I'm really sweet and it changes everyone's

1257
01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:51,200
Speaker 2: entire personalities, which is not realistic.

1258
01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:55,520
Speaker 1: So HBO, Apple TV. If you want the next Ted

1259
01:03:55,600 --> 01:03:59,160
Speaker 1: Lasso on your hands, right here, it's where a podcaster

1260
01:03:59,240 --> 01:04:06,160
Speaker 1: from America ends up the Queen of England and head

1261
01:04:06,160 --> 01:04:10,480
Speaker 1: of the Chicago crime outfit. Look, I'll watch it. I'm

1262
01:04:10,480 --> 01:04:11,520
Speaker 1: gonna watch every episode.

1263
01:04:11,560 --> 01:04:13,080
Speaker 2: I'll tell you right now to go to that blue

1264
01:04:13,080 --> 01:04:15,600
Speaker 2: grotto my Euros.

1265
01:04:16,080 --> 01:04:19,000
Speaker 1: Look, let's do it. I'm ready. I'm ready. Call us up.

1266
01:04:19,040 --> 01:04:20,760
Speaker 1: All right, don't know how to get in touch with us?

1267
01:04:20,800 --> 01:04:23,600
Speaker 2: Right and whatever you're called? Now, get on, get on

1268
01:04:23,600 --> 01:04:23,960
Speaker 2: the horn.

1269
01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:24,560
Speaker 1: It's time.

1270
01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:25,800
Speaker 2: We'll write this one on spec.

1271
01:04:26,040 --> 01:04:27,880
Speaker 1: You can reach out to us and tell us that

1272
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:30,360
Speaker 1: you're ready to sign us for a TV show by

1273
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:32,680
Speaker 1: writing the ridict Romance at gmail dot com.

1274
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:36,240
Speaker 2: That's right, or reach out on Instagram. I'm at Dianamite Booth.

1275
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:38,280
Speaker 1: And I'm at Oh great, It's Eli.

1276
01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:39,840
Speaker 2: And the show is at ridict Romance.

1277
01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:42,800
Speaker 1: Thanks y'all so much for sticking with us during this

1278
01:04:42,840 --> 01:04:45,400
Speaker 1: busy time of the year. We should be all back

1279
01:04:45,440 --> 01:04:48,520
Speaker 1: to it now and we're so excited to be back

1280
01:04:48,560 --> 01:04:49,360
Speaker 1: in your ears again.

1281
01:04:49,600 --> 01:04:52,960
Speaker 2: And we will see you soon for another great episode

1282
01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:54,400
Speaker 2: of Adigulous one.

1283
01:04:54,440 --> 01:04:58,480
Speaker 3: Now we'll see then, Love you bye solo friends, just

1284
01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:02,760
Speaker 3: time to go. Thanks for listening to our show. Tell

1285
01:05:02,840 --> 01:05:05,920
Speaker 3: your friends, neighbors, uncles, and dance to listen to our

1286
01:05:05,920 --> 01:05:07,560
Speaker 3: show Ridiculous Well Dance

1287
01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:09,760
Speaker 1: M