Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2: So we're gonna do something a little different today. I'm
Speaker 2: here with my co host Sarah Holder. Hey, Sarah, Hi, David.
Speaker 2: Sarah doesn't just host the Big Take, She's also someone
Speaker 2: who covers housing for Bloomberg and Sarah, you have written
Speaker 2: a new story for Bloomberg Business Week.
Speaker 3: Yes. Back in July, I took a trip down to Washington,
Speaker 3: d C. To meet Scott Turner, who's the new Secretary
Speaker 3: of the Department of Housing and Urban Development. I met
Speaker 3: him in the agency's nearly sixty year old headquarters, and
Speaker 3: one of the first things he showed me was this
Speaker 3: big white cinder block that was on his office floor.
Speaker 1: That brick right there, y'all see that break That break
Speaker 1: fail right here where my closet is, and hit two
Speaker 1: feet above.
Speaker 3: My head while you were in the office.
Speaker 1: Literally when I was walking out of my office to
Speaker 1: brick fail.
Speaker 2: This is one of the hazards I guess of working
Speaker 2: for HUD.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Turner has a lot of problems with this building.
Speaker 3: It's got dim lighting, elevators that are often out of service,
Speaker 3: bad air quality. Hudstaffers too have complained about this building
Speaker 3: for years. When I visited a sign over one of
Speaker 3: the entrances said welcome to HUD, and it was missing
Speaker 3: the M.
Speaker 2: Well, that is not a good look for the agency
Speaker 2: that's responsible for enforcing housing standards in the US, is it.
Speaker 3: Well, that's what Turner has been arguing. But rather than
Speaker 3: try to fix HUD's existing building, Turner has announced plans
Speaker 3: to move out of the city entirely and into a
Speaker 3: fancier office building in the suburbs of Alexandria, Virginia. It's
Speaker 3: one that's currently occupied by the National Science Foundation, which
Speaker 3: is facing drastic cuts from the Trump administration, and the
Speaker 3: move is still a little bit in flux, but Turner
Speaker 3: sees it as a symbolic win. He wants the new
Speaker 3: building to help usher in a new golden age. As
Speaker 3: he puts it, for the agency.
Speaker 1: It's a culture shift, it's a paradigm shift. And so
Speaker 1: that's what we mean, going from the old to the new,
Speaker 1: gone from mediocre to excellence.
Speaker 3: And David now would be a great time for HUD
Speaker 3: to be excellent because the country is in the midst
Speaker 3: of a historic housing crisis. The US has sky high
Speaker 3: housing costs, record homelessness levels, and a nationwide shortage of
Speaker 3: affordable housing, and HUD has an important role to play
Speaker 3: in solving all that.
Speaker 4: It's most pronounced program is housing Vouchers, which is the
Speaker 4: direct support that HUD pays on behalf of tenants to
Speaker 4: landlords for low income people for millions of households across
Speaker 4: the country.
Speaker 3: This is Bloomberg City Lab reporter Kristen Kapps, who wrote
Speaker 3: and reported the story with me and who's an expert
Speaker 3: on all things HUD.
Speaker 4: It provides the support the financing for the many affordable
Speaker 4: housing developers and the many nonprofits that build affordable housing
Speaker 4: that provide services for homeless people across America. HUT does
Speaker 4: a lot more things than that.
Speaker 3: HUDD also enforces anti discrimination laws and provides mortgage insurance
Speaker 3: for first time home buyers.
Speaker 2: Bly HUT is in charge of making sure Americans have
Speaker 2: a safe, affordable place to live.
Speaker 3: Right but Turner is facing down this housing crisis with
Speaker 3: a HUD that's nearly thirty percent smaller than it was
Speaker 3: before Donald Trump took office, and with a budget that
Speaker 3: the President had proposed cutting by more than forty percent.
Speaker 3: Turner had supported those proposed budget HUTS, and he's also
Speaker 3: pushing other policies that could shrink HUD's programs.
Speaker 1: The budget doesn't have anything to do with the mission.
Speaker 1: The mission remains the same.
Speaker 3: I'm David Gera and I'm Sarah Holder. This is the
Speaker 3: big take from Bloomberg News Today.
Speaker 2: On the show, HUD's Secretary Scott Turner's mission to kick
Speaker 2: off an affordable housing building spree, while he supports policies
Speaker 2: that could kick millions of renters off of government housing aid.
Speaker 2: What Turner's plan could mean for the US housing crisis.
Speaker 2: Like many HUD secretaries before him, Scott Turner didn't come
Speaker 2: into the role with much experience in housing policy, but
Speaker 2: he told my co host Sarah Holder that hutt's mission
Speaker 2: of serving low income communities is personal to him.
Speaker 1: I've always had a heart for the hurting and a
Speaker 1: heart for those who were downtrodden.
Speaker 3: Secretary Turner grew up in the suburbs of Dallas in
Speaker 3: a family that didn't have much money.
Speaker 1: I understand struggle all too well.
Speaker 3: His parents divorced when he was ten years old. He
Speaker 3: talks about this a lot as sort of a pivotal
Speaker 3: moment in his childhood.
Speaker 1: Growing up in the home where your parents are not
Speaker 1: always at peace. When there's confusion and chaos and arguments
Speaker 1: and at times violence, it makes it very hard for
Speaker 1: a child. And so the early years of my life,
Speaker 1: that was what my home was like.
Speaker 3: His parents weren't on any federal housing assistance, but other
Speaker 3: members of his family were. His wife, Robin, was on
Speaker 3: Section eight growing up.
Speaker 2: Turner ended up getting a full ride to play football
Speaker 2: in college and played nine seasons as a cornerback in
Speaker 2: the National Football League. After he retired from the NFL,
Speaker 2: he dabbled in politics, starting in twenty twelve. He served
Speaker 2: two terms in the Texas House of Representatives, and Bloomberg's
Speaker 2: Kristen Capps, who worked on this story with Sarah says
Speaker 2: housing didn't appear to be high on the list of
Speaker 2: Turner's political priorities back then.
Speaker 4: He doesn't have a strong record of passing any kind
Speaker 4: of housing bills.
Speaker 2: But in twenty eighteen, Turner landed a job in the
Speaker 2: first Trump administration.
Speaker 3: He becomes the head of the White House's Council on
Speaker 3: Opportunity Zones under the first Trump administration, and so the
Speaker 3: Opportunity Zone program was basically a tax break for developers
Speaker 3: to develop in distressed neighborhoods in the country, and so
Speaker 3: Scott Turner used his experience in politics as experience in
Speaker 3: public speaking to kind of helm that council, where he
Speaker 3: traveled around the country basically preaching the gospel of opportunity zones,
Speaker 3: talking to low income communities across the country about what
Speaker 3: this sort of tax break for developers program could do
Speaker 3: for them. So that's kind of the first time that
Speaker 3: we see him intersect with the Trump administration.
Speaker 2: The Opportunity Zone program ended up being a controversial one.
Speaker 2: It attracted more than one hundred billion dollars in investment,
Speaker 2: far more than anticipated, but research suggests the program poured
Speaker 2: money into areas already primed for development, and jobs mostly
Speaker 2: went to outside workers. Under President Biden, opportunity zones went
Speaker 2: on the back burner and Turner went back to Texas.
Speaker 2: He became an associate pastor for a Dallas area Baptist
Speaker 2: megachurch and chief visionary officer for a multi family real
Speaker 2: estate developer. Then, when Trump was reelected, he tapped Turner
Speaker 2: to run HUD.
Speaker 5: It's a pleasure to be here today to introduce my
Speaker 5: friend and fellow Texan Scott Turner to be the next
Speaker 5: Secretary of the US Housing Department of Housing and Urban Development,
Speaker 5: Thank you.
Speaker 2: What are his ideas and vision for HUD, What does
Speaker 2: he want to see it turn into under his leadership.
Speaker 3: So one of the big things that housing advocates sort
Speaker 3: of noticed about Scott Turner in his confirmation hearing was
Speaker 3: he really emphasizes the importance of building affordable housing.
Speaker 6: We have a housing crisis in our country. We have
Speaker 6: the American people and families that are struggling every day.
Speaker 3: Which is something a lot of people across the space
Speaker 3: agree on as one of the ways to get America
Speaker 3: out of this housing crisis. We have a housing shortage
Speaker 3: of four point seven million homes, as much as seven
Speaker 3: million affordable ones.
Speaker 6: We need millions of homes, all kinds of home, multifamily,
Speaker 6: single family, duplex, condo, manufacturing, housing, you name it.
Speaker 3: But he's also someone who really distrusts the social safety net,
Speaker 3: And as we mentioned earlier, part of Hudd's main role
Speaker 3: in this country is propping up the social safety net
Speaker 3: with vouchers that they disperse to nine million tenants across
Speaker 3: the country and their landlord. So he's really focused on
Speaker 3: supply and he's really really distrustful of the voucher program.
Speaker 2: In his confirmation hearing, Turner talked about slashing red tape
Speaker 2: and said it's time for the federal government and for
Speaker 2: the Housing Agency to do more with less. Here's a
Speaker 2: telling exchange between Turner and Massachusetts Senator Elizabeth Warren.
Speaker 7: Do you support additional federal investment in programs so that
Speaker 7: we can lower the cost of building affordable housing?
Speaker 1: Thank you, Sanda Wall. What I do support is maximize
Speaker 1: in the budget that we do have and making sure
Speaker 1: that the money.
Speaker 7: So he said, a no to additional investments.
Speaker 1: Is a yes to maximize in the investment that we have.
Speaker 2: After the break, how the Trump administration is shrinking HUD
Speaker 2: and what it means for affordable housing, fair housing protections,
Speaker 2: and homelessness in the US, HUDD started the year with
Speaker 2: over eight thousand staffers, but after a few rounds of
Speaker 2: buyouts led by the Department of Government Efficiency, Bloomberg's Kristen
Speaker 2: Kapp says around twenty three hundred of those staffers left,
Speaker 2: and HUD is now thirty percent smaller.
Speaker 4: There was already within the administration during the election conversations
Speaker 4: about cutting back programs. That's certainly been a talking point
Speaker 4: for Republican administrations before Donald Trump in his first term.
Speaker 4: So I think that HUD expected to see things like
Speaker 4: cuts to voucher programs.
Speaker 2: But Kristin says what they didn't expect was to lose
Speaker 2: so many staff. Turner made it clear to Sarah in
Speaker 2: their interview that he didn't fire all these people.
Speaker 3: When I asked Turner about those numbers, he was very
Speaker 3: very clear that these were people who wanted to leave voluntarily.
Speaker 1: I'll know you all, Bloomberg, You and other media outlets
Speaker 1: have reported about these dark, deep cuts going on at HUT.
Speaker 1: None of that is true. Tell me, we had twenty
Speaker 1: three hundred people who opted to take a different path,
Speaker 1: but we haven't had deep cuts.
Speaker 2: However you describe these departures, Kristen says, they're already taking
Speaker 2: their toll on several of HUD's key offices.
Speaker 4: The office that distributes billions of dollars in community level
Speaker 4: block grants has shed forty percent of its staff. The
Speaker 4: office that oversees the housing vouchers have shed something like
Speaker 4: thirty percent of staff. The Federal Housing Administration, which is
Speaker 4: this agency that backs mortgage insurance for you know, many
Speaker 4: first time home buyers across the country, and this is
Speaker 4: a program that generates billions of dollars for the Treasury,
Speaker 4: and that office has lost something like twenty five percent
Speaker 4: of its staff.
Speaker 2: Turner has said that HUD has enough staff to fulfill
Speaker 2: its mission critical functions, and in a statement, HUD declined
Speaker 2: to comment on specific staffing changes, but current and former staffers,
Speaker 2: along with affordable housing advocates, told Sarah and Kristen that
Speaker 2: the changes at HUD have hurt its ability to carry
Speaker 2: out one of its most important mandates, preventing housing discrimination.
Speaker 4: One of the duties for HUD from when it was
Speaker 4: very first established was to enforce fair housing. To enforce
Speaker 4: the provisions of the Fair Housing Act of nineteen sixty eight.
Speaker 4: You know that meant that a person you know could
Speaker 4: not be refused a home, could not be refused to rent,
Speaker 4: could not be refused the opportunity to buy based on
Speaker 4: their race, based on their religion. HUD has always been
Speaker 4: on the forefront of enforcing these laws.
Speaker 2: According to a HUDD union leader, the number of attorneys
Speaker 2: who now work on fair housing cases at the agency
Speaker 2: is down from around twenty to single digits.
Speaker 3: When I asked Gott Turner about the level of fair
Speaker 3: housing enforcement that's going on country right now. He said
Speaker 3: the law will be followed, discrimination will be rooted out.
Speaker 2: But HUT staffers say the agency is closing major discrimination
Speaker 2: lawsuits and reopening cases where it already secured settlements. HUD
Speaker 2: declined to comment on this. One advocate told Sarah that
Speaker 2: HUDD has stopped pursuing cases involving allegations of discrimination on
Speaker 2: the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity. A HUD
Speaker 2: spokesperson said the agency can't comment on the status of
Speaker 2: specific cases that have not been made public, and said
Speaker 2: that they were upholding the president's executive order. That order
Speaker 2: recognizes only two sexes and refutes the existence of trans people.
Speaker 2: Turner has cut some of the red tape he promised.
Speaker 2: He's pushed lawmakers to remove a federal regulation on manufactured
Speaker 2: housing that could help unlock more factory build homes, and
Speaker 2: he's also pulled back a range of information gathering requirements
Speaker 2: for mortgage lenders in an effort to cut housing costs.
Speaker 2: But Turner has advocated for funding changes that critics say
Speaker 2: threatened to undermine the agency's core mission.
Speaker 3: Trump's proposed budget calls for cutting HUD's overall budget by
Speaker 3: more than forty percent. It also calls for consolidating the
Speaker 3: voucher program we've talked about and moving it to the
Speaker 3: states and cutting its funding significantly as well. It also
Speaker 3: proposed two year time limits on vouchers, which would mean
Speaker 3: that folks who have maybe lived in public housing for
Speaker 3: six years even while working and can't afford a market
Speaker 3: rent would be picked out of the program.
Speaker 2: N YU researchers estimate that nearly one point four million
Speaker 2: households could be impacted by such time limits. But Turner
Speaker 2: has defended the cuts President Trump has proposed.
Speaker 3: He's really re emphasized the idea of being efficient and effective,
Speaker 3: and he said that, you know, we have record numbers
Speaker 3: of people experiencing homelessness, sleeping on the streets, and HUD's
Speaker 3: budget is more than seventy billion dollars, and so his
Speaker 3: logic is that we're spent so much money and not
Speaker 3: seeing results, like we should stop spending money. And members
Speaker 3: of Congress have said they don't understand that logic, that
Speaker 3: if the problem is so grave and so deep, part
Speaker 3: of the issue is that HUD has been underfunded for
Speaker 3: decades and they want to see more targeted investments and
Speaker 3: they don't want to see millions of tenants being evicted
Speaker 3: overnight from their residences because they say that that is
Speaker 3: really the thing that could increase homelessness in this country.
Speaker 2: Lawmakers have since proposed their own more generous spending plans
Speaker 2: for HUD.
Speaker 3: So the House and the Senate have submitted their own
Speaker 3: budgets which restore a lot of that voucher funding, which
Speaker 3: restore a lot of that affordable housing production funding.
Speaker 2: Congress has until September thirtieth to pass a final budget,
Speaker 2: a budget that housing advocates hope won't look much like
Speaker 2: the one the President has proposed, but Sarah says that
Speaker 2: doesn't mean the voucher program is safe. Putting time limits
Speaker 2: on vouchers is still on Turner's priority list, and he's
Speaker 2: also signaled he wants to add more work requirements to
Speaker 2: rental aid.
Speaker 1: Social safety and nets were never meant to be a hammock,
Speaker 1: but instead they should be a trampoline. They were never
Speaker 1: meant to be a resting place, but instead a place
Speaker 1: to where you can get on your feet and then
Speaker 1: to be projected out to live a life of self sustainability.
Speaker 3: And so the concern is even without cutting the budget
Speaker 3: by forty percent, you could still sort of reduce the
Speaker 3: size and the importance and the significance of the voucher
Speaker 3: program through these other sort of legislative changes.
Speaker 2: Instead, Turner wants HUD to focus on getting as many
Speaker 2: new homes built as possible.
Speaker 3: Do you have a number.
Speaker 1: I don't have a number. The number that really sticks
Speaker 1: out of my head every day is seven million, because
Speaker 1: that's the need that we have. But I believe by
Speaker 1: taking down these burdens and regulations, by building public private partnerships,
Speaker 1: by being very active with our state and local partners,
Speaker 1: that we can and the President obviously is very in
Speaker 1: tune to this and has made it a priority that
Speaker 1: we can build many housand units, neighborhoods and projects in
Speaker 1: the years that we have here. But one day at
Speaker 1: a time.
Speaker 2: The problem is building anywhere close to seven million homes
Speaker 2: will take a while.
Speaker 3: There are millions of Americans who need help from HUD
Speaker 3: to pay the rent today, thousands of landlords who rely
Speaker 3: on rental aid to make their mortgages today, and a
Speaker 3: whole network of affordable developers who use HUD money to
Speaker 3: break ground on new projects today.
Speaker 2: Sarah, I want to wrap up by returning to something
Speaker 2: you said, which is Scott Turner, the secretary of HUD,
Speaker 2: is somebody who acknowledges the housing crisis, believes fervently in
Speaker 2: the need to build more housing, and at the same
Speaker 2: time he's very skeptical of a lot of the social
Speaker 2: safety net programs. How hard is it for him to
Speaker 2: hold both of those things at once, hold both of
Speaker 2: those beliefs at once.
Speaker 3: A lot of the people I've spoken to have told
Speaker 3: me it's really hard to do both of those things
Speaker 3: at once, because in its current at least, the affordable
Speaker 3: housing ecosystem in the United States really depends on money
Speaker 3: from HUT. It depends on the voucher program. It depends
Speaker 3: on the work of people who are ensuring that folks
Speaker 3: who can't afford to move when they're being discriminated against,
Speaker 3: have protections. So if cuts to the voucher program go through,
Speaker 3: even in the future, if HUD is no longer able
Speaker 3: to defend tenants' rights in the same way, there could be,
Speaker 3: sources say, even more homelessness, because what happens to folks
Speaker 3: who are evicted from their public housing after two years
Speaker 3: if time limits are to go into effect, what happens
Speaker 3: to people who can't work who are caregivers for their family.
Speaker 3: If work requirements were to go into effect, the market
Speaker 3: rents right now are not affordable for broad swaths of
Speaker 3: this country, and many affordable developers can't afford to build
Speaker 3: affordable housing at a profit without those subsidies from HUT.
Speaker 3: So if they cut these fundamental programs that HUD has
Speaker 3: provided for decades, Turner could make it a lot harder
Speaker 3: to address some of the underlying causes of the housing
Speaker 3: crisis that he says he cares about so deeply.
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