Speaker 1: Airbnb in the past ten years, they have had few
Speaker 1: reservations about giving the hotel industry a run for their money.
Speaker 1: But this company, which started as a way to inflate
Speaker 1: a couple of guys rent money, wasn't always the holiday
Speaker 1: it seems now. In fact, they had multiple failed launches
Speaker 1: and went from broke to broker in the beginning. But
Speaker 1: these founders weren't content just to lie in the bed
Speaker 1: they made. They wanted to jump on it. So let's
Speaker 1: get away and look at how this company went from
Speaker 1: the ground floor to the top bunk. It's Airbnb on
Speaker 1: the brink. So Ariel today we're talking about Airbnb. We are,
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, I'm a traveler. I've used Airbnb before,
Speaker 1: have you once? So we have both used Airbnb. Before
Speaker 1: this episode, I had not actually really looked in to
Speaker 1: the history of Airbnb because it was just it was
Speaker 1: part of the sharing economy. It kind of for me,
Speaker 1: got lumped in with Uber and other things that, to
Speaker 1: some degree or another tend to get lumped in with
Speaker 1: the shared economy. So let's talk about where this company
Speaker 1: came from. Who started Airbnb? Well, it was founded by
Speaker 1: Brian Chesky and Joe Gebbia and eventually another gentleman, Nathan Blackhard.
Speaker 1: I have no idea that's the right way of pronouncing.
Speaker 1: We were butchering his name, but good reliable Nathan Nathan
Speaker 1: back in two thousand and eight. But they actually had
Speaker 1: the idea like a year earlier. So airbnb is only
Speaker 1: about ten years old as of recording this episode. And
Speaker 1: the idea came out of necessity. So you had Joe
Speaker 1: and Brian who were living together an apartment in San Francisco,
Speaker 1: one of the most expensive places to live on the plan, yes,
Speaker 1: and they were struggling to make rent. And I'm sure
Speaker 1: that is a case that a lot of folks out
Speaker 1: there can identify with. So they came up with an
Speaker 1: idea sort of. This wasn't even a permanent solution. This
Speaker 1: was literally an opportunity in front of them. Yeah. In
Speaker 1: September seven, Joe emailed Brian because they're living together, and said, Hey,
Speaker 1: I thought of a way to make a few extra bucks.
Speaker 1: Let's buy some air mattresses and rent out. Are a
Speaker 1: little bit a loft to people who are coming in
Speaker 1: town for designers conference because hotels are getting kind of scarce.
Speaker 1: We can give them breakfast and maybe tore them around
Speaker 1: the city and um, make a few extra bucks for Yeah.
Speaker 1: In fact, that was the U r L airbed and
Speaker 1: breakfast dot com. And how much did it cost to
Speaker 1: stay on a air mattress in these guys apartment with
Speaker 1: breakfast and maybe touring of the city, don't forget a
Speaker 1: cost eighty dollars. Not bad for San Francisco, actually not
Speaker 1: at all. So then they had to go for one
Speaker 1: of the events that has become at least for a while,
Speaker 1: it was really really, really important, especially in the tech space.
Speaker 1: I don't know if I would argue it's just as
Speaker 1: important today as it was maybe a few years ago,
Speaker 1: but that would be south By Southwest, And so they
Speaker 1: decided this was a good spot to give it another shot.
Speaker 1: And how many people did they manage to land at
Speaker 1: that auspicious launch to customers and one of them was
Speaker 1: a founder was they really was kind of only one customer, um,
Speaker 1: but they did get, you know a little bit of
Speaker 1: good out of south By Southwest. They connected with the
Speaker 1: CEO of Justin TV, Michael Siebel, who kind of became
Speaker 1: their friend and helped advise them from that point on.
Speaker 1: Now they were looking at ways to perhaps attract more people.
Speaker 1: One of the things they were concerned with was that
Speaker 1: perhaps they had made the interface a little too complicated.
Speaker 1: And we've seen this over and over with user interfaces
Speaker 1: where it comes pies keep working to try and simplify that,
Speaker 1: to remove as many steps as possible, because the fewer
Speaker 1: steps you have, the more customers you tend to land.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's why Amazon has that buy it with
Speaker 1: one click button. So they did a kind of a
Speaker 1: redesign there, and how many like this, Like they just
Speaker 1: keep asking me all of this trivia about what I've
Speaker 1: written because because you wrote it, because you wrote it,
Speaker 1: how many people per day We're we're visiting the site, um,
Speaker 1: about fifty people a day, and that's not great. It's
Speaker 1: not great. And out of those fifty people, they're only
Speaker 1: getting right. So this is clearly very slow starter. And
Speaker 1: and in fact, I think a lot of people at
Speaker 1: this point probably would say we're gonna pull up stakes
Speaker 1: before it gets we're too deep. But um, these folks didn't.
Speaker 1: They took their tool I was not doing well and
Speaker 1: brought it to fifteen investors and out of those fifteen
Speaker 1: they got eight rejections. Okay, and then the rest just
Speaker 1: didn't respond to them. Yeah. Yeah, And all this time,
Speaker 1: you know, they're trying to keep their business running. They
Speaker 1: really believe in this idea. But now they're in debt
Speaker 1: and they're broke. Yeah. Brian had built up about twenty
Speaker 1: five thousand dollars in credit card debt. Yeah, and I've
Speaker 1: I've read some accounts that said Joe had about the
Speaker 1: same and other accounts where they said they only had
Speaker 1: like thirty candid But it's still a lot of debt
Speaker 1: if you don't have money and you're struggling to make rent.
Speaker 1: They said that they had binders like the kind you
Speaker 1: would collect baseball cards in, except they were filled with
Speaker 1: credit cards. Yeah. Yeah, but they still they still did
Speaker 1: not give up there, like the little engine that could. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So they decide to try for another big event. So
Speaker 1: this particular event that they were looking at was the
Speaker 1: Democratic National Convention, another huge event, and they launched a
Speaker 1: new website in line with the two thousand eight DNC
Speaker 1: and they got eighty bookings out of it, you know,
Speaker 1: is a little bit of an improvement. Yeah. And then
Speaker 1: they had a crazy marketing idea they did. They bought
Speaker 1: a bunch of really cheap Cereal, and they had a
Speaker 1: friend print up a bunch of cereal boxes. And these
Speaker 1: cereal boxes were filled with the really cheap cereal. But
Speaker 1: the boxes themselves said Obamas and Kata McCain's to kind
Speaker 1: of play to the people who are at the d
Speaker 1: n C. And then they put their company info on
Speaker 1: it as well, and then a number. Because these were
Speaker 1: limited edition boxes, they could only afford to make, you know,
Speaker 1: so many of them. Yeah, And they ended up selling
Speaker 1: them for forty dollars each. Yes. And the crazy thing
Speaker 1: is Obama Ow's sold out. It was a prediction, I
Speaker 1: guess for the Yeah. Yeah, kept mckaines didn't sell out,
Speaker 1: which is actually good for them. We'll get to that point. Um.
Speaker 1: But they raced around thirty dollars um and they put
Speaker 1: it back in the company to pay off debt. They
Speaker 1: had only made like five k by this time, like
Speaker 1: five dollars, yes, So they were not making enough money
Speaker 1: to pay their day to day living costs. So so
Speaker 1: Nathan said, buy you guys, peace, he says, And so yeah,
Speaker 1: we're talking. They're still in debt. They had paid off
Speaker 1: some of it, but they were still they still had
Speaker 1: a good amount of debt going. They were not making
Speaker 1: enough revenue to pay their living costs. And remember this
Speaker 1: all started off as a way to try and pay
Speaker 1: off rent. Yes, so they were not even making enough
Speaker 1: to buy food. They were living off of leftover dry
Speaker 1: McCain cereal. They wouldn't even buy milk, Yeah, just just
Speaker 1: crunching on druy crunchy McCain. I did that the other day.
Speaker 1: I made a bowl of Simantos crunch in the morning
Speaker 1: and then found out we didn't have milk. And that
Speaker 1: was a sad, sad experience. It is. That's because you've
Speaker 1: already committed, you've gone from box to bowl and yet yeah,
Speaker 1: and you know, I've been there. I've tried to put
Speaker 1: the cereal back into the box and it never goes well.
Speaker 1: So these guys they had a choice. Did they continue
Speaker 1: forward or did they try to put the cereal in
Speaker 1: the box? Well will? I mean, you already know because
Speaker 1: their B and B still a thing. But we're going
Speaker 1: to explain how that happened in just a moment. But first,
Speaker 1: let's take a quick break to thank our sponsor. Okay,
Speaker 1: so we've got our co founders living off of leftover
Speaker 1: marketing materials and still struggling to make ends meet. What
Speaker 1: comes next? All right, so you know they're they're still
Speaker 1: not giving up. And their friend Michael Siebel, who they
Speaker 1: met at south By Southwest from Justin TV, said, you
Speaker 1: guys should join the Y Combinator. Yeah. That's the incubator
Speaker 1: company that helps startups and it typically connects the entrepreneurs
Speaker 1: who have founded a business with potential investors. Yes and uh.
Speaker 1: He even went as far as to call it Paul Graham,
Speaker 1: the founder of the Y Combinator, to have him extend
Speaker 1: the deadline for them to apply because it had just passed.
Speaker 1: But Brian and Joe didn't really want to because they
Speaker 1: had some customers and they had already launched or five times.
Speaker 1: But they did. They did, and good old reliable Nathan
Speaker 1: comes back out to join them for the big pitch. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and their interview did not go super well. Um and
Speaker 1: and in fact, Joe wanted to pack some of their
Speaker 1: Capta McCain's with him, and the guys are like, no,
Speaker 1: don't do that. You've just got to give your pitch
Speaker 1: at Y Combinator. You just have to give your pitch,
Speaker 1: no presentation. Yeah, you're not supposed to have any other
Speaker 1: materials that could possibly sway somebody, but he snuck it
Speaker 1: in and when their presentation didn't go well, he gave
Speaker 1: the cereal to Paul, and Paul realized that these these
Speaker 1: boys just don't give up, and he said that if
Speaker 1: you can convince somebody to fork over forty dollars for
Speaker 1: some cheap cereal, maybe you can make this work. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So there's another thing about y combinator. Once you're given
Speaker 1: an offer to join, you have to accept it right away. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's no deliberating. And so they're on their way back
Speaker 1: home to San Francisco when they get that call and
Speaker 1: they have to make the decision do they go with
Speaker 1: it or do they decide to try and strike out,
Speaker 1: keep going at it on their own. Yes, And they
Speaker 1: actually lost connection with the call on the way and
Speaker 1: had to get the call back, but they did accept
Speaker 1: and they received twenty dollars seed money for joining, and
Speaker 1: then they got Nathan to rejoin the company. So the
Speaker 1: three amigos are back again. And then uh in two
Speaker 1: thousand nine, they were still working on making, you know,
Speaker 1: adjustments to Airbnb or what would become Airbnb. They had
Speaker 1: that twenty dollars of seed funding, which is really not
Speaker 1: that much when you look at some of the initial
Speaker 1: seed investments in companies. Yeah, but it's more than they
Speaker 1: had been making by a substantial amount. They kept on
Speaker 1: looking for more investors. They kept finding a lot of
Speaker 1: closed doors in the way. Yes, people kept getting hung
Speaker 1: up on the name airbed and Breakfast, which I don't
Speaker 1: blame them. Yeah. They also looked for ways to make
Speaker 1: the service more attractive, like literally look more attractive. Yes. Yes,
Speaker 1: Paul had told them to go and visit their clients.
Speaker 1: So the people who are posting available spaces, available spaces,
Speaker 1: they're known as hosts in the airbnb speak. Yes, and
Speaker 1: he told them to go visit these hosts, take professional
Speaker 1: pictures of their homes. Yeah, not just those little cell
Speaker 1: phone images that were popping up. Remember this is also
Speaker 1: in two thousand nine when the cameras on cell phones
Speaker 1: were not as good as they are today. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: you know, get to know these people one by one,
Speaker 1: make reviews of their home, get feedback from them. So
Speaker 1: they did. They went in and they took quote unquote
Speaker 1: professional pictures of all these homes and rooms and rooms
Speaker 1: and posted them and made everybody's profiles that they could
Speaker 1: look much better now. This actually did have an effect.
Speaker 1: They actually saw an increase in bookings and they doubled
Speaker 1: their revenues, which sounds impressive until you know how much
Speaker 1: they were making to start with four hundred dollars a week. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that was the doubled amount. Previously they had been
Speaker 1: making two hundred dollars a week, so between three people,
Speaker 1: four dollars a week. Not a runaway success yet, but
Speaker 1: they were still determined to give this as hard a
Speaker 1: shot as they could, and it was in March of
Speaker 1: two thousand nine that they finally changed that name of
Speaker 1: air bed and Breakfast to Airbnb, and that helped a
Speaker 1: little bit. And then they also started to include the
Speaker 1: ability to do vacation rentals through Airbnb, yes, whole apartments
Speaker 1: and houses and the like. And then in April two nine,
Speaker 1: these changes really paid off because they got an investor
Speaker 1: in Sequoia Capital, who gave them six hundred thousand dollars
Speaker 1: of startup money, right, and finally they were able to
Speaker 1: really push for a good start up. There was also
Speaker 1: another thing that happened around then. The recession that had hit.
Speaker 1: The economic recession was starting to finally kind of we're
Speaker 1: coming out of that. So that helped them as well.
Speaker 1: You had people who suddenly felt like they could afford
Speaker 1: to go on trips, yes, and they had a cheaper
Speaker 1: way to do so. Yeah. So the thing to remember
Speaker 1: about airbnb the thing that the value proposition right, because
Speaker 1: you sit there and you think about the service that
Speaker 1: Airbnb actually does, because you think, well, the hosts own
Speaker 1: the property, right, they're renting it out. The guests are
Speaker 1: the ones handing over money to rent that property. So
Speaker 1: where does Airbnb come in. Well, they act as the
Speaker 1: platform for the hosts, and they elevate that property so
Speaker 1: that more people can see it. And that's where the
Speaker 1: real value is. Because obviously, if you wanted to just
Speaker 1: put up a room for rent, then you were doing
Speaker 1: it in some either like local papers or Craigslist or
Speaker 1: some other service. It might be hard to discover your property.
Speaker 1: So this was something that once it caught on, people
Speaker 1: really saw the value. So as a host, it was
Speaker 1: valuable because more people saw the potential rental property. As
Speaker 1: a customer, as a traveler, it was valuable because now
Speaker 1: you suddenly saw what your options were in the city
Speaker 1: you were traveling to, and you suddenly could say all right, well,
Speaker 1: we don't have to stay in a hotel. There's house
Speaker 1: and it's really close to the places we want to
Speaker 1: go to, and it's cheaper. Let's stay there instead. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and this is good because it meant that Brian and
Speaker 1: Joe and Nathan could now pay their own living expenses.
Speaker 1: So comes around and the company is on the rise.
Speaker 1: It's it's now getting more widespread adoption, helped in no
Speaker 1: small part by the fact that they were able to
Speaker 1: get an app in the iPhone App Store, which was
Speaker 1: pretty brand new in like that the brand, the app Store,
Speaker 1: I think launched in two thousand eight, late two thousand eight,
Speaker 1: so this was not too long after the apps were
Speaker 1: first available. Yes, And then in two thousand eleven they
Speaker 1: hit one million nights booked. Not bad, No, and they
Speaker 1: were in eighty nine countries, which is also not bad.
Speaker 1: They went back to south By Southwest, Yes, where they
Speaker 1: won the Breakout Mobile App Award, And they also were
Speaker 1: able to land more investment money, and it was this
Speaker 1: time princely sum. Indeed, before it was six dollars, this
Speaker 1: time one million dollars, which bumped their value to one
Speaker 1: billion dollars, approximately a billion dollar company. This to me
Speaker 1: is one of the most phenomenal stories I've heard. You know,
Speaker 1: we talk in business about the concept of the unicorn.
Speaker 1: That's the startup, the billion dollar startup. You know, it
Speaker 1: took a couple of years. But when you again, when
Speaker 1: you go to barely able to stay out of debt
Speaker 1: to a billion dollar company in that short amount of time,
Speaker 1: it is a phenomenal story. Yeah. Yeah, then you're not
Speaker 1: necessarily make believe unicorn, You're in normal Yeah. And and
Speaker 1: in May two thousand eleven, Airbnb got a celebrity investor.
Speaker 1: That's when actor Ashton Kutcher would invest what was called
Speaker 1: a significant amount of money in the company and was
Speaker 1: named a strategic advisor. Um. Not many people realize this,
Speaker 1: but Kutcher is known for his investments in the business world.
Speaker 1: He's actually, from what I understand, not just business savvy,
Speaker 1: but very tech savvy as well. And he saw the
Speaker 1: value in this and he decided to also invest at
Speaker 1: this time. Yes. And then in two thousand twelve, they
Speaker 1: did something really good for the people who host on
Speaker 1: their site. They implemented a host coverage policy called a
Speaker 1: host guarantee. But they did this because the people who
Speaker 1: were releasing their their space. We're having issues. Some of
Speaker 1: the renters were trashing their location. Yeah, they would have
Speaker 1: like they would rent out an Airbnb and then throw
Speaker 1: a wild party in there yeah yeah, or in some
Speaker 1: cases use it for a brothel. Yeah, there were questionable uses,
Speaker 1: and Airbnb, in an effort to try and make sure
Speaker 1: that it was heading off any potential lawsuits or liability issues,
Speaker 1: creates this policy which is now essentially an insurance policy
Speaker 1: of like a million dollar insurance policy to protect the
Speaker 1: property of homeowners and hosts. Although there are a lot
Speaker 1: of qualifiers on that policy, so it's not like it's
Speaker 1: cart blaunch and though it's cash, art and pets are
Speaker 1: not covered, yeah, and and common areas are not covered,
Speaker 1: so it's not like it's, you know, you find a
Speaker 1: scratch on a table and suddenly you get a million
Speaker 1: dollars and normal wearing tear is not covered. And they
Speaker 1: do encourage you to try to work it out with
Speaker 1: the person who leases your space first. Um. But they
Speaker 1: also instituted our support logistic teams, compliance teams, and local
Speaker 1: area teams. And this is because they didn't really have
Speaker 1: a company structure. Yeah, they kind of just did everything
Speaker 1: as they could themselves, and then when they couldn't anymore,
Speaker 1: they'd hire more people in, but there wasn't great communication
Speaker 1: or plans or this is what this is sometimes what
Speaker 1: happens when you've got like a small group of people
Speaker 1: who come up with an idea and then it grows
Speaker 1: exponentially very quickly, like you might have an idea that's
Speaker 1: easy to launch but difficult to maintain once it gets
Speaker 1: up to a certain scale. So they began to invest
Speaker 1: in the business and start to build out teams for
Speaker 1: leadership in order to actually be good stewards of the
Speaker 1: business and help it grow in a way that was sustainable.
Speaker 1: Yes um. And then also in two thousand and twelve,
Speaker 1: they added wish lists for places you want to stay,
Speaker 1: so if you're looking around on Airbnb and popping around,
Speaker 1: you can see, oh, there's this really cool place that
Speaker 1: I want to go and put it on your wish
Speaker 1: list UM to go in the future. And they helped
Speaker 1: with Hurricane Sandy. They worked with the State of New
Speaker 1: York to provide a disaster relief tool where people could
Speaker 1: basically give their space for free to people who are
Speaker 1: escaping the hurricane, saying I have space available if you
Speaker 1: need a place to stay, which happened this year with
Speaker 1: Hurricane Florence as well. Yeah, we got a little bit
Speaker 1: more to talk about with Airbnb, but we'll do that
Speaker 1: right after we come back from this break for our sponsor. Okay.
Speaker 1: So they're starting to come across some problems as their
Speaker 1: business grows, as all businesses do, growing pains, um And
Speaker 1: now they start running into this new problem and it's
Speaker 1: one that they're still struggling with today. They start coming
Speaker 1: against rental regulations cities and states and countries. We're having
Speaker 1: issues with people renting out their personal homes and apartments
Speaker 1: because it was conflicting with rental laws in that area
Speaker 1: and hotel laws, um. And some hosts are even getting
Speaker 1: evicted for using their residences as Airbnb destinations. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: you know, you also had established industries like the hospitality
Speaker 1: industry and various cities can be very very powerful, and
Speaker 1: there are regulations there for a reason. They're there to
Speaker 1: protect people from predatory business practices. It's it's the reason
Speaker 1: that the regulations are there are because without them there,
Speaker 1: people can get harmed in some way, whether it's financially,
Speaker 1: the sly, whatever it may be. And Airbnb was appearing
Speaker 1: to sidestep that, and some people were taking advantage of it. So,
Speaker 1: for example, if I happen to own a building that's
Speaker 1: filled with apartments and I'm collecting two thousand dollars per
Speaker 1: apartment per month, but I could rent out each of
Speaker 1: those rooms for two hundred bucks a night, then suddenly,
Speaker 1: economically it makes way more sense for me to clear
Speaker 1: out that building and operate it as a hotel, essentially
Speaker 1: using Airbnb as my front end, because even after they
Speaker 1: take their cut, I'm still going to make more money
Speaker 1: than I would as a landlord. And that was a
Speaker 1: big fear was that there were landlords who were doing
Speaker 1: something similar. Maybe it's not a full apartment building, maybe
Speaker 1: it's a duplex house that has multiple apartments built into it,
Speaker 1: and that became a big concern, and hotels were saying, hey,
Speaker 1: this isn't fair. They're they're not held to the same
Speaker 1: regulations that we are. They're undercutting our business. We have
Speaker 1: to still adhere to the regulations and they're doing the
Speaker 1: same thing we're doing. It's just that they don't have
Speaker 1: to play by the same rules. And they're also saying, hey,
Speaker 1: they're cutting into your tax money because they're not paying
Speaker 1: taxes on this. Yeah. So this this is also something
Speaker 1: that we see in general in the sharing economy as well,
Speaker 1: Like we've seen this with Uber and lift and taxis yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and limited limousine companies as well. So we're still seeing
Speaker 1: that kind of shake out. And this is a really
Speaker 1: complicated issue. It is because it's not like there's a
Speaker 1: blanket response for every incident. Every city is different, countries
Speaker 1: are different. Yeah, some some city states and countries welcome
Speaker 1: Airbnb and others say, oh, please know you're hurting our economy.
Speaker 1: And I think Airbnb is a very valuable service. I
Speaker 1: can also see the point of view of some of
Speaker 1: the critics. Not all the critics are regulatory agencies. Sometimes
Speaker 1: it's people who live in certain neighborhoods, right, they're saying
Speaker 1: that it's gentrifying their neighborhood or taking up all their parking,
Speaker 1: or is just too loud, yeah, or they don't know
Speaker 1: who's living next to them, and and things are driving
Speaker 1: up the price of living in some areas, and that
Speaker 1: that which goes in with your gentrification that you were saying, like,
Speaker 1: that's you know, we've seen that happen here in Atlanta
Speaker 1: quite a bit, where we've seen whole neighborhoods that get
Speaker 1: transformed to the point where the people who are living
Speaker 1: there can't afford to live there anymore. And uh, and
Speaker 1: while there are benefits to gentrification, you have to look
Speaker 1: at all the consequences, not just the good ones. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they've started some worldwide home sharing clubs so that the
Speaker 1: people who are sharing their homes and the people in
Speaker 1: the community can get involved and help find these solutions.
Speaker 1: They've also put into their company fees to collect hotel
Speaker 1: taxes in the in the cities like San Francisco and
Speaker 1: Portland where that is required. So that's currently where they are.
Speaker 1: Last year, they're up to three million rentals worldwide in
Speaker 1: one countries and thousand cities. So the story I would
Speaker 1: say here is that you had some people who had
Speaker 1: a good idea. They didn't know exactly how to implement
Speaker 1: it so that it would have the most effective impact,
Speaker 1: but they stuck with it even in the face of
Speaker 1: destitution and starvation. Well, I'm glad we were able to
Speaker 1: cover this. I look forward to revisiting it. Perhaps in
Speaker 1: the future, maybe we'll see another Brink moment when the
Speaker 1: company is a couple of years older. I always like to,
Speaker 1: you know, leave our options open, just in case there's
Speaker 1: something that develops after we record this. Sadly, the world
Speaker 1: does not stop after we record an episode. We're gonna
Speaker 1: work on that, but until next time, I have been
Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickling and I've been aerial casting. If you would
Speaker 1: like to learn more about what we've talked about as
Speaker 1: well keep track of all of our episodes, make sure
Speaker 1: you visit our website at the Brink Podcast dot show,
Speaker 1: or you can email us at Feedback at the Brink
Speaker 1: podcast dot show