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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope

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Speaker 1: you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it

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Speaker 1: is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship

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Speaker 1: with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so

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Speaker 1: much for joining me. Possession to fifty four of the

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Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into the

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Speaker 1: conversation after word from our sponsors. Today's episode of the

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Speaker 1: podcast is not only exciting because of the great conversation

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Speaker 1: I'll be sharing. Today's episode also marks five years of

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Speaker 1: the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. On April two thousand seventeen,

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Speaker 1: the first episode of the podcast was released, and we

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Speaker 1: have been sharing weekly episodes ever since. To say that

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Speaker 1: life has changed dramatically since then is an understatement. Back then,

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Speaker 1: it was just me and my husband burning the midnight

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Speaker 1: oil cranking out the episodes, and now we have a

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Speaker 1: team of ten sisters here, three of them dedicated to

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Speaker 1: the podcast. We've released two hundred and sixty five episodes.

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Speaker 1: The podcast has been downloaded more than eighteen million times,

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Speaker 1: and y'all tune in every week from more than one

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Speaker 1: hundred and seventy five countries. We've won a Webby Award,

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Speaker 1: an Ambi Award, and to my Heart Podcast Awards, and

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Speaker 1: I'm currently writing my first book, Sisterhood Heels, in large

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Speaker 1: part because of the amazing ways that y'all have shown

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Speaker 1: up in this community each week. I remain humble and

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Speaker 1: grateful for your continued support, engagement, and willingness to share

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Speaker 1: and be vulnerable in this space. A huge thank you

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Speaker 1: to Fred, to Elise and Cindy for helping to create

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Speaker 1: the podcast each week. Thank you to my husband Dennison

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Speaker 1: for continuing to burn the midnight all with me and

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Speaker 1: for always making us sounds so good. To the team

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Speaker 1: at I Heart for your support, and to all of

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Speaker 1: you for tuning in and sharing. We could not have

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Speaker 1: made it here without you. Thank you. So much of

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Speaker 1: our adult lives are impacted by our work. For some

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Speaker 1: it can determine where we live, where our children go

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Speaker 1: to school, and even what times we eat dinner. A Additionally,

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Speaker 1: the quality of our lives depends largely on who we

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Speaker 1: work with, which is why our work experiences should be

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Speaker 1: improving our lives and not dampening them. In this week's episode,

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Speaker 1: I speak with one of my former professors, Dr Keisha M. Thomas,

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Speaker 1: dean professor and expert in the psychology of workplace diversity.

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Speaker 1: Our conversation explores the complexities of color blindness in the workplace,

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Speaker 1: overt and covert signs of workplace discrimination, and the critical

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Speaker 1: research on diversity resistance in the workplace. If something resonates

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Speaker 1: with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us

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Speaker 1: on social media using the hashtag TVG in Session or

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Speaker 1: join us over in the sister circles To talk more

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Speaker 1: in depth about the episode, You can join us at

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Speaker 1: community that Therapy for Black Girls dot com. Here's our conversation.

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Speaker 1: It's so happy to chat with you, Dr Thomas, Thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for coming on the show. Happy to

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Speaker 1: be here, earned happy to catch up with you, Dr Joy.

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Speaker 1: I know it has been sometimes for those of you

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Speaker 1: who don't know. Dr Thomas was one of our professors

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Speaker 1: at the University of Georgia. So she has known me

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Speaker 1: for a very long time. So it's always such a

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Speaker 1: pleasure to chat with people who have known in other

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Speaker 1: areas of my life and so different times. I would

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Speaker 1: love for you to get us started just by talking

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Speaker 1: about how you came to focus on workplace diversity as

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Speaker 1: your research and why do you feel like the research

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Speaker 1: that you've been doing is necessary. Sure, we spend so

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Speaker 1: much of our adult lives at work talking about we're

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Speaker 1: complaining about work. I learned very early on that my

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Speaker 1: dad's work kind of infiltrated all different aspects of my life,

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Speaker 1: right It determined where we live, where I went to school,

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Speaker 1: even what time I ate dinner because he worked a

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Speaker 1: second shift job. And so I just realized very early

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Speaker 1: on that work was important and I wanted to make

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Speaker 1: sure that people like myself had a better work experience.

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Speaker 1: And so, what has your research found specifically about black

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Speaker 1: women in the workplace. So it's so complicated because as

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Speaker 1: someone who focuses on diversity in the workplace, oftentimes what

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Speaker 1: we will discover when we use a more intersectional analysis

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Speaker 1: of our data is that whatever is going on in

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Speaker 1: the workplace will impact black women the most. Right, So

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Speaker 1: if there is a negative climate for diversity, black women

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Speaker 1: are going to kind of demonstrate those effects or manifestations first.

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Speaker 1: If I'm looking at how to recruit more people of

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Speaker 1: color and women into corporate America, I'm going to find

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Speaker 1: out that black women are the most sensitive detectives when

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Speaker 1: trying to uncover what an organization's culture is really about.

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Speaker 1: And I think in my most recent empirical work around

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Speaker 1: diversity ideologies and organizations such as color blindness and multiculturalism,

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Speaker 1: we found in a field studied that color blindness, white

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Speaker 1: color blindness was a very negative experience for workers of color,

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Speaker 1: to the point that it led to their disengagement. Now,

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Speaker 1: subsequent researchers have also found that color blindness and organizations demonstrates,

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Speaker 1: or it seems to signal like a low value for diversity,

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Speaker 1: that someone's going to feel at risk for discrimination and

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Speaker 1: harassment and they will not feel as though they will

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Speaker 1: perform as well. And for black women in particular, field

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Speaker 1: data has further demonstrated that they don't perform as well

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Speaker 1: in those environments. So we are always one to show

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Speaker 1: the affects the most. So a lot of times when

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Speaker 1: you refer as a color blindness in a workplace, what

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Speaker 1: do you meaning? Yeah, so people of my generation, gen

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Speaker 1: xers and perhaps older grew up in a society that

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Speaker 1: told us that we shouldn't notice difference, right, that we're

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Speaker 1: all the same. It doesn't matter if you're purple, green,

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Speaker 1: or blue, which of course is a problem. You shouldn't,

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Speaker 1: at least ever acknowledge that you notice differences, because if

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Speaker 1: you were to notice them, then that means you can

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Speaker 1: act upon them in a negative way. But the reality is,

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Speaker 1: of course we notice skin color differences and gender. Those

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Speaker 1: are the first things that we noticed, and saying that

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Speaker 1: we don't notice differences doesn't mean that we don't act

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Speaker 1: upon them. If anything, it seems to give people license

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Speaker 1: to engage in discriminatory and harassment behavior without fear of

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Speaker 1: being called out upon it. So that's why mean about

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Speaker 1: color blindness. I think in organizations, those who use color

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Speaker 1: blind systems are ones that attempt to treat all people

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Speaker 1: the same. But we know that treating people equally sometimes

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Speaker 1: reinforces the disparities that they come into the organization with,

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Speaker 1: and higher education workplaces have an opportunity to compensate for

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Speaker 1: some of the historical and structural limitations that some people

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Speaker 1: might have, even though they have tremendous potential. I think

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Speaker 1: something that lots of people are doing now, especially as

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Speaker 1: maybe many are looking for new jobs or new workplaces

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Speaker 1: to answer, is betting these places to kind of see, Okay,

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Speaker 1: what kind of fit is it's gonna be? How are

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Speaker 1: people like me going to be treated in an organization

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Speaker 1: like this? Can you give us any ideas about any

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Speaker 1: overt or covert signs that a workplace might not actually

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Speaker 1: be championing diversity right because everyone knows the rhetoric, Everyone

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Speaker 1: knows to say diversity, equity, inclusion, but you have to

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Speaker 1: listen more carefully to whether or not they are sending

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Speaker 1: these kind of color blind signals that it doesn't matter

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Speaker 1: where you come from once you enter this organization, we're

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Speaker 1: all the same. And I think if you ask people

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Speaker 1: in the organization, they might say different. So I certainly

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Speaker 1: look out for color blind messages. I also look out

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Speaker 1: for what can I find out about the diversity in

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Speaker 1: that organization by gender, by race, by nationality of those

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Speaker 1: data are available, and then I want to know where

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Speaker 1: is the diversity located? Right? So is it only at

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Speaker 1: the lowest levels of the organization. And if there are

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Speaker 1: people of color and leadership, are they people who rose

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Speaker 1: up and the organization who developed and we're able to

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Speaker 1: grow their careers or were they people who were brought

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Speaker 1: in from the outside. Those are two very different messages

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Speaker 1: around how does this organization see leadership, Because if they're

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Speaker 1: not growing people from the inside, it makes you wonder

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Speaker 1: where there's a lack of investment. Mmmmm, great points there. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was gonna ask you, like, what doesn't mean about

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Speaker 1: an organization if you see maybe there are people of color,

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Speaker 1: but they are not people of color who have been

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Speaker 1: with the organization for a long time. So in your

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Speaker 1: mind or at least maybe the research is suggesting that

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Speaker 1: if you see a more homegrown approach so to speak, right,

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Speaker 1: like somebody who maybe started at a lower level in

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Speaker 1: they invested in them, that may signify like a greater investment.

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Speaker 1: I would think so. And it also tells you about

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Speaker 1: people's willingness to stay. People generally don't stay where they

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Speaker 1: don't feel valued or rewarded for their excellence. And if

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Speaker 1: people are willing to stay, that tells you something about

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Speaker 1: the culture that you're walking into. Yeah, so's something else

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Speaker 1: I've been thinking about, Dr Thomas. It does feel like

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Speaker 1: there is a backlash, at least seemingly post and what

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Speaker 1: I call like the Summer of the Black Squay is

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Speaker 1: right when all of these organizations and workplaces were coming

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Speaker 1: down with all of these statements about diversity and their pledges,

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Speaker 1: and it does feel like lots of corporations have walked

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Speaker 1: back on a lot of it. And so now we

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Speaker 1: see black women in particular talking about still having very

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Speaker 1: hostile experiences in the workplace. Have you done any research

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Speaker 1: or seeing any research that is talking about what diversity

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Speaker 1: looks like now in the workplace kind of post twenty twenty.

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Speaker 1: I wish I had the site in front of me,

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Speaker 1: but I know that there has been a recent study

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Speaker 1: that said organizations just have not fulfilled their commitment and

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Speaker 1: what they're doing. I think it's pretty performative. And the

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Speaker 1: second volume of Diversity Resistance and Organizations, we talk about

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Speaker 1: performing diversity as focusing on setting up these d e

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Speaker 1: I offices and putting the most liked person of color

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Speaker 1: and charge without any kind of education, training, or experience

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Speaker 1: to really lead in that area, or putting individuals in

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Speaker 1: these d e I officer roles who don't report directly

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Speaker 1: to the most senior leader, the CEO or the you know,

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Speaker 1: chairman of the board, not giving them the resources financial

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Speaker 1: or human resource to really carry out their message. I

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Speaker 1: think other things that are happening is that unfortunately we

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Speaker 1: focus a lot on training without understanding the climate for

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Speaker 1: training transfer right. So any kind of io psychologists will

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Speaker 1: tell you it's not enough to simply train someone in

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Speaker 1: a new technique or a new piece of equipment. You

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Speaker 1: have to make sure that stay returned back to their

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Speaker 1: workplace or their department, that they actually are rewarded and

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Speaker 1: supported in using what they've been trained on. But oftentimes

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Speaker 1: when we do d e I training, we might be

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Speaker 1: there alone. Our coworkers haven't received the training, no one's

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Speaker 1: holding us accountable to use to training, and no one's

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Speaker 1: really giving us the support of reinforcement to use it.

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Speaker 1: So standing up training as a strategy to be a

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Speaker 1: d EI leader is just simply not enough. And I

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Speaker 1: would say performative. So you use the term that I

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Speaker 1: don't know that I'm familiar with the diversity resistance, and

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Speaker 1: it sounds like it's the name of your book, but

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Speaker 1: it also is a term. Can you say more about

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Speaker 1: what diversity resistance is in the workplace? Sure. My grad

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Speaker 1: students at Georgia and I started doing this work probably

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Speaker 1: in the late nineties, and the first book came out

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Speaker 1: around O eight and so we define diversity resistance as

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Speaker 1: institutional or interpersonal behaviors intentionally or unintentionally interrupt the opportunity

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Speaker 1: for diversity to be an asset to an organization. There

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Speaker 1: are these different justifications for why organizations need to think

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Speaker 1: about d There's a moral social justice justification it's the

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Speaker 1: right thing to do. But then there's also folks in

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Speaker 1: management who do work around. If you're focused on d I,

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Speaker 1: it's going to help you gain a greater market share

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Speaker 1: of consumers or people who will buy your services. If

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Speaker 1: you're recognized as a d e I leader, such as

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Speaker 1: the best place for working Moms, your stock prices can

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Speaker 1: shoot up by being celebrated. Recently, a group of social

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Speaker 1: psychologists stark at All, reveal that when you compare those

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Speaker 1: justifications for diversity, it's really the moral argument that benefits

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Speaker 1: underrepresented groups. So they compare the use of those arguments

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Speaker 1: and higher ed settings and the moral social justice argument universities.

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Speaker 1: You see the achievement gaps between white students and students

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Speaker 1: of color decreasing. But the opposite is true when those

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Speaker 1: higher ed institutions are trying to use an instrumental argument

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Speaker 1: for diversity, like it's going to make us more innovative,

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Speaker 1: it's a compelling interests because it makes us better decision

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Speaker 1: makers and more creative. So we really do need to

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Speaker 1: reinforce the social justice and moral argument for why we

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Speaker 1: attend to these issues and bed to your earlier point

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Speaker 1: around some of these trainings being performative, what approaches have

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Speaker 1: you seen be more effective than like the one off

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Speaker 1: trainings that can sometimes not really be in service of

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Speaker 1: the organization. The first lesson is that it always begins

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Speaker 1: with dership. So the most senior person and power has

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Speaker 1: to make d I a priority and a value of

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Speaker 1: the institution, and then it has this subsequently infiltrate every

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Speaker 1: aspect of their leadership, how they recruit people, how they

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Speaker 1: select them, the criteria that they use to identify people,

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Speaker 1: to develop and to promote. Subsequently, it can't be a

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Speaker 1: standalone conversation. It has to be a part of every

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Speaker 1: conversation that the senior leader and those who follow that

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Speaker 1: person have with their followers. You know, I think about

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Speaker 1: chief financial officers. We talk about money all the time

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Speaker 1: and organizations. You don't have to be in budgets or

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Speaker 1: finance to talk about money. The same has to take

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Speaker 1: place when it comes to issues of d e I.

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Speaker 1: Everyone's respond stable. There may be people who are advisors

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Speaker 1: or who can coach you to be a better d

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Speaker 1: I leader. Ultimately, everyone has to have responsibility and be

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Speaker 1: held accountable. Thank you for that. More from my conversation

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Speaker 1: with Dr Thomas after the break. So, something that we

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Speaker 1: discussed early on in the pandemic and the Therapy for

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Speaker 1: Black Girls community was how many Black women, while anxious

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Speaker 1: about what was happening with the pandemic, how relieved so

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Speaker 1: many black women felt about not having to go into

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Speaker 1: the office and deal with all of the microaggressions and

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Speaker 1: macro aggressions we know that will happen in the workplace.

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Speaker 1: Can you say a little bit about some of these microaggressions?

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Speaker 1: What are those and what do those look like specifically

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Speaker 1: for Black women typically? Yeah, so, you know, the biggest microaggression,

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Speaker 1: Darryl Wing sue, cause a mac grow micro aggression is

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Speaker 1: color blindness to begin with, right, working in an environment

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Speaker 1: where you are rewarded for not noticing difference, that's problematic.

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Speaker 1: But I think those of us, especially in professional environments

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Speaker 1: here micro insults all the time about how articulate we are,

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Speaker 1: how professional we are. But I think there's also micro

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Speaker 1: and validations where people are questioning how we got to

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Speaker 1: where we are, like, oh, so, what school did you

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Speaker 1: go to? Did you really go there? Did you play

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Speaker 1: a sport? I think they're complicated, and we confront them

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Speaker 1: in ways that may seem benign initially, but after you

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Speaker 1: experience them so many times, they really tell you more

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Speaker 1: about the actor and them having low expectations of the

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Speaker 1: women of color, the black women in particular in their

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Speaker 1: work settings. I think there are other cultural aspects of

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Speaker 1: our black womanhood that are still foreign to the people

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Speaker 1: that we work with. Hair, of course, is a big one,

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Speaker 1: and my colleagues Tina Opie and Beth Livingston have done

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Speaker 1: some work on how we evaluate the professionalism of black people,

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Speaker 1: black women in particular because of something like hair, which

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Speaker 1: is not illegally defensible, job characteristic and almost every situation.

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Speaker 1: So besides the microaggressions, are there other discriminatory practices that

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Speaker 1: you've seen that whole black women back from like reaching

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Speaker 1: their highest potential in the work. Please. Oh, there's you know,

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Speaker 1: significant exclusion that black women face across different industries. Lack

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Speaker 1: of access to mentors who provide both psychosocial and instrumental support,

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Speaker 1: lack of a access to networks which provide the informal

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Speaker 1: information you need to really navigate your career in your workplace,

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Speaker 1: and then lack of access to sponsors. So sponsors are

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Speaker 1: those individuals who actually have the positionality the authority to

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Speaker 1: open doors and to point you in the fruitful direction

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Speaker 1: for your career development. In fact, when I was still

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Speaker 1: at Georgia, I was giving presentations to the Atlanta d

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Speaker 1: e I community. I had a senior leader at one

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Speaker 1: of the big utility companies talked to me after one

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Speaker 1: of the presentations and said he wanted to provide a

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Speaker 1: corporate gift to my lab because he had seemed so

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Speaker 1: many really high performing black women get poached from his

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Speaker 1: organization and go to some of their competitors. And so

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Speaker 1: I asked him what he thought was going on, and

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Speaker 1: it was really similar or to what we could imagine

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Speaker 1: was going on based in the literature. And he said

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Speaker 1: they were alone, no one would mentor them. White women

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Speaker 1: wouldn't mentor them. Often they were a source of competition.

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Speaker 1: The black men above them did not mentor them. And

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Speaker 1: I think David Thomas, who is now president at Morehouse,

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Speaker 1: would say that there's likely some taboos there that impeded

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Speaker 1: black men from reaching out to black women to mentor them.

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Speaker 1: So they were almost always on their own, and so

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Speaker 1: they were vulnerable to being recruited by other organizations. And

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Speaker 1: he really wanted help and understanding what they could do

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Speaker 1: as an organization to better retain those women. That's a

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Speaker 1: really interesting point. Dr Thomas, and I wonder if you

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Speaker 1: have some thoughts about what you can do if you

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Speaker 1: find yourself as the only black woman. It feels in

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Speaker 1: some ways, I think, kind of hopeless when you are

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Speaker 1: doing your best to kind of look around it. Who

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Speaker 1: could be a mental or who could be a sponsor,

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Speaker 1: and like all you see are closed doors. Do you

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Speaker 1: have any suggestions for anybody who might find themselves in

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Speaker 1: that place. You know, it's critical to have some kind

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Speaker 1: of connection, and I think if that's your experience in

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Speaker 1: your workplace, you have to take the best out of

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Speaker 1: the situation and understand that you may only have connections

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Speaker 1: with them between nine and five, and during nine to

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Speaker 1: five it may only be around certain task or certain responsibility.

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Speaker 1: So you take what you can get out of that experience.

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Speaker 1: But I think it's also really critical to form more deep, trusting,

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Speaker 1: respectful relationships with people outside of our organizations, perhaps who

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Speaker 1: work in the same industry or who work in a

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Speaker 1: different location of the organization that we're employed at, and

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Speaker 1: find some deeper connections, hopefully with other black women or

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Speaker 1: women of color, but ultimate that lee with people who

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Speaker 1: are invested in your success and in your growth. I

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Speaker 1: think we all need mentors, and my leader says, we

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Speaker 1: need a constellation of mentors, and it's really critical that

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Speaker 1: you have mentors of diverse groups, because I feel as

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Speaker 1: though most black women who are senior, certainly the folks

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Speaker 1: that I collaborate with the most, almost all of us

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Speaker 1: would say that we had white male mentors who helped

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Speaker 1: to elevate us in very unintentional ways. And there's even

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Speaker 1: some research demonstrating that having a white male leader has

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Speaker 1: a financial premium tied to it. And my reasoning about

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Speaker 1: this is that they provide a certain level of acceptability

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Speaker 1: or credibility that unfortunately women and people of color do

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Speaker 1: not yet provide. Is it racist, is it sexist? Absolutely?

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Speaker 1: But the reality of the situation that I think at

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Speaker 1: least women in my peer group have often found that

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Speaker 1: their ascent was in some ways helped by having a

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Speaker 1: white male mentor or advocate. M So, you mentioned Dr

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Speaker 1: Thomas this idea that sometimes black women are not mentored

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Speaker 1: or sponsored because they are seen as a threat. And

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Speaker 1: you have also done an incredible amount of work when

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Speaker 1: this phenomenon called the pets a threat phenomenon. Can you

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Speaker 1: say more about what that is and how that shows

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Speaker 1: up in the workplace? Sure, definitely, And of course I

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Speaker 1: want to acknowledge that team that did that work. So

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Speaker 1: it was myself one Nita Johnson Bailey, your major professor,

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Speaker 1: Rosemary Phelps, and then two of my former students, doctors

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Speaker 1: Lindsay Johnson and me at Tran. And I will tell

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Speaker 1: you how this began is that Dr Phelps and Johnson

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Speaker 1: Bailey and I were participating in HERS, which is the

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Speaker 1: Higher Edge Vucation Resource Service, which is basically a boot

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Speaker 1: camp for women leaders in academics. So we were in

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Speaker 1: this year long program and we would travel up to

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Speaker 1: Wellesley College about once a month with all these high

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Speaker 1: potential women, and we would have conversations during breaks or

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Speaker 1: over meals about our career experiences. And then one night

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Speaker 1: we were kind of debriefing among ourselves and we were

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Speaker 1: hearing some of the same things over and over again.

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Speaker 1: Some of our younger colleagues often talked about feeling belittled,

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Speaker 1: that they were treated sometimes as though they were a

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Speaker 1: daughter of their male colleagues. And I remember one woman

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Speaker 1: she was in physics, and she was the only woman

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Speaker 1: in her department, and she was saying how the men

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Speaker 1: in her department would say, oh, you remind me of

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Speaker 1: my daughter. And a few times we would here that

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Speaker 1: people felt as though they were really being pushed out

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Speaker 1: and kind of celebrated, but not necessarily for the knowledge,

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Speaker 1: skills and abilities that they were bringing, but more because

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Speaker 1: they brought diversity with them, they changed the composition of

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Speaker 1: their work group or their department. And then more senior

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Speaker 1: women we heard that they were also isolated. They were

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Speaker 1: usually the first of their kind or one of the kind,

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Speaker 1: but their experience was a little different in that they

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Speaker 1: felt as though they weren't receiving the same rewards and

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Speaker 1: recognition as their male peers, that some of the accomplishments

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Speaker 1: that they had were not celebrated in the same ways

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Speaker 1: as some of their predecessors, and they were frustrated about this,

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Speaker 1: right because they had done all the things that they

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Speaker 1: were supposed to do and then not getting the same

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Speaker 1: reward and recognition. And furthermore, they started talking about their

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Speaker 1: support systems, eroting family relationships, romantic relations and ships, mentor relationships,

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Speaker 1: and then subsequently feeling like even when they ascended to

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Speaker 1: positions of authority and leadership or even became experts in

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Speaker 1: the particular area that expertise in that leadership was challenged

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Speaker 1: and they talked about being treated as though they were threatening.

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Speaker 1: And so as we were talking about this, I said,

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Speaker 1: it's like you go from pet to threat, And that really,

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Speaker 1: I think describes what the experience is like for being

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Speaker 1: severely underrepresented in your industry or in your workplace and

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Speaker 1: trying to navigate other people's expectations of why you're there,

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Speaker 1: who you're supposed to be, and what the future might

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Speaker 1: look like in that industry or in that workplace. So incredible,

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Speaker 1: I appreciate that bad story. I don't know that I

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Speaker 1: had heard how that term came to be, and you know,

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Speaker 1: as psychologists, right, I think we are both fascinated by

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Speaker 1: the why. And so I'm wondering if you can say

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Speaker 1: a little bit about, like why high achieving black women

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Speaker 1: become threats? What is it that happens in the dynamic

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Speaker 1: in the relationship that causes us to then be seen

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Speaker 1: as threats to people? I think much of the why,

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Speaker 1: and we're starting to see this occurr in other areas,

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Speaker 1: is the challenge we represent to the status quo, right,

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Speaker 1: the challenge we represent to how things have always been,

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Speaker 1: what you could expect in the future, what you could

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Speaker 1: count on. So we physically represent a difference, and then

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Speaker 1: our voice, our perspectives, our priorities, then subsequently might also

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Speaker 1: be different and it becomes too much. I honestly think

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Speaker 1: that's kind of challenging of the status quo. Is a

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Speaker 1: lot of it. And let's not forget that there are

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Speaker 1: still people who hold on to the misspell leef that

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Speaker 1: we have positions and titles because we have benefited from

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Speaker 1: some unfair form of affirmative action or preferential treatment. Is

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Speaker 1: unfortunately so often where people are just blown away that

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Speaker 1: I got a PhD like thirty years ago, and there,

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Speaker 1: you know, just cannot wrap their heads around us as

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Speaker 1: a group engaging in higher ed, getting experiences, traveling internationally,

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Speaker 1: managing large budgets, managing people. It still is unfortunately foreign

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Speaker 1: to them. So I'm wondering, not to timas if you

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Speaker 1: have any quotes from your research that you can share

435
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: about black women's experiences going from being a pit or

436
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 1: a protege at word to turning into a threatening force. Sure,

437
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 1: so I have one pet quote I would like to share.

438
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 1: This is a person who was a clinical faculty, remember,

439
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 1: and she says I was put out front on many issues,

440
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 1: but not given the responsibility what I'd called to be

441
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 1: seen but not heard. I would have my projects or

442
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: contributions given to other faculty as soon as they became successful.

443
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 1: I even had a grant project funded by X written

444
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 1: up in a university newsletter without my name attached. I

445
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: was expected to both support and do whatever as necessary

446
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 1: for minority students in the program, and expected to withdraw

447
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 1: support if majority faculty wanted it. Of course, I would

448
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: always do the former, but not the latter. I have

449
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: had information and support with health for me, even when

450
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 1: i've requested it. I've had faculty want to be seen

451
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 1: with me in order to gain what I call diversity

452
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 1: social capital. This is also something that majority students have done. They,

453
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 1: of course, are not wanting to do the work necessary

454
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 1: to be culturally off again. M Yeah, that feels so exhausting, right,

455
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 1: because you're already doing the work of like, yeah, you're

456
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 1: trying to do your job, but then they're all these

457
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 1: things that you didn't necessarily sign up for that then

458
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: come with the word too, that just leave you I

459
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 1: think fielding drained. Yeah, it's that cognitive demand of trying

460
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 1: to predict how people are going to respond and be

461
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 1: on target with your work responsibilities, but not also have

462
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 1: them derail you're being successful in your work or you're

463
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 1: growing in your career. So I have another example of

464
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 1: a threat that I can share. At my last academic position,

465
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 1: I was the first person in the history of my

466
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 1: entire college to win a competitive early career award. My

467
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 1: end quotes. Female department share did not announce it. Other

468
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 1: department chairs men were the ones who actually made a

469
00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 1: big deal about it. This year, I received a major

470
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: Rea Church Award, but it was not announced to my

471
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 1: current college unlike other grants earned by other people. I

472
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 1: was told it was too small to count, and I

473
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 1: think that's a common experience. Whatever it is we do,

474
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: it's not going to be good enough, even when it

475
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 1: exceeds what others have done. And again when we heard

476
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 1: that not getting the same reward and recognition, I feel

477
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 1: like that quote represents the lack of acknowledgement and reward,

478
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 1: but also demonstrates the lack of ally ship by her

479
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 1: female chair. Yeah. I was gonna ask you, Dr Thomas,

480
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 1: have you seen a gendered peace to this or black

481
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 1: women seen as more of a threat to other non

482
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 1: black women? And I feel like even Black women against

483
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 1: each other, I think is sometimes a dynamic, But I'm

484
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: asking more specifically this time. Is there a piece that

485
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,959
Speaker 1: black women are seen is more threatening to non black women? Well?

486
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 1: I think certainly in a more public the linked in

487
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 1: responses to Twitter responses, seeing a lot of black women

488
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:10,959
Speaker 1: talk about the disappointment of their advisors and mentors who

489
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 1: are women not supporting them, but also the incredible letdown

490
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: when you're black female mentor starts to separate from you

491
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: for whatever reasons. I think my colleagues La Belle and

492
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 1: Stella and Como, who are my heroes, do incredible work

493
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 1: talking about the relationship between black and white women in

494
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 1: the workplace, which is the last taboo, and trying to

495
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 1: understand the experiences of black women. Bell Hooks has this

496
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: wonderful quote about the relationship of white women to Black

497
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 1: women as being the one between the served and the

498
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 1: server and challenging that dynamic in the workplace and expecting

499
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: to be treated as a peer or in many cases

500
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 1: as the super carrier. I think creates really unique and

501
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 1: difficult challenges for African American women because oftentimes there's not

502
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 1: going to be another Black woman that you can go to.

503
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 1: Your inclination is to reach out to other women, But

504
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 1: if those other women are all white, that creates a

505
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:23,839
Speaker 1: whole other historic and social dynamic to try and navigate. Yeah,

506
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: more from my conversation with Dr Thomas after the break, So,

507
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 1: what suggestions would you have for someone a Black woman

508
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 1: in the workplace who recognizes that they may be treated

509
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 1: as either a pit or a threat, Like is this

510
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 1: something that you would call out to somebody, Like what

511
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 1: can you do in this situation? You know, we take

512
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 1: on so much additional labor. I think depending upon how

513
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:02,440
Speaker 1: you feel about that organization, in its location, proximity to

514
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 1: friends and family. You're willing to weigh some of these

515
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:10,840
Speaker 1: things differently. Any kind of leader would always say go

516
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 1: to the source first and have your receipts, have examples

517
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:21,320
Speaker 1: and documentation of ways in which perhaps you were overvalued

518
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:26,360
Speaker 1: for your diversity but underutilized based upon prior work history,

519
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 1: your knowledge, skills, and ability. Be willing to demonstrate what

520
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 1: your salary is or what other rewards people have received

521
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,319
Speaker 1: relative to what you are receiving. There are lots of

522
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,359
Speaker 1: published salary surveys now where you will be able to

523
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 1: acknowledge whether or not you're being undercompensated or not. And

524
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:54,799
Speaker 1: if that isn't helpful, I encourage women, actually every kind

525
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 1: of new professional to think of themselves as a free agent.

526
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:03,320
Speaker 1: I think sometimes we get too locked into a single

527
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: institution and we feel as though we have something to

528
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 1: prove in order to get the fair treatment that we

529
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,439
Speaker 1: deserve to begin with, and so rather on taking on

530
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 1: all that work of a system that is sick, I say,

531
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 1: always have your performance at a level where you are

532
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:29,800
Speaker 1: attractive to lots of different institutions, lots of different organizations

533
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 1: and have a healthy level of distance from your workplace.

534
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 1: Understand that it is work. As we began the conversation,

535
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 1: we spend a lot of time at work with those people.

536
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 1: It provides us money, sometimes it provides us a sense

537
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: of identity. But you also are valuable and you can

538
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 1: be valuable to lots of other places in different industries,

539
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: different locations. Great suggestions there, So as we started talking

540
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 1: about our you in the conversation, like how can you

541
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 1: do some of this vetting of places you may be

542
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,799
Speaker 1: applying to as a candidate, or there specific questions that

543
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 1: we can ask to get a sense of whether a

544
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 1: company is actually committed to diversity. Definitely, we talked about

545
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:20,840
Speaker 1: looking at the diversity rhetoric, looking at the number or

546
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 1: proportions of people of color or non traditional people in

547
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 1: that environment to try and get a sense of where

548
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 1: they are at. But two questions I thought about is

549
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 1: just you know, tell me about a success story in

550
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 1: your organization. Who is the highest rank woman of color

551
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 1: or black woman in your organization and what's her story,

552
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,839
Speaker 1: what were the roles that she had, the mentoring that

553
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: she was provided, And then who do you think would

554
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: be a good mentor for me? How many people. Can

555
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,360
Speaker 1: they come up with what has been their career stories

556
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 1: in that organization? You want to know that the people

557
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 1: who you are going to report to have a level

558
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:09,439
Speaker 1: of investment in those around them, So I think that's

559
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 1: really critical. Yeah, those are great questions that I don't

560
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 1: know that I would have thought. Yes, I appreciate you

561
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 1: sharing those. So what can you share for any like

562
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 1: employeers or leadership team members who may be listening in

563
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:22,319
Speaker 1: terms of what kinds of things can they do to

564
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 1: check their diversity resistance in their organization? Yeah? The first

565
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 1: thing I always think about is who's at the table,

566
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:34,280
Speaker 1: So the weekly leadership meeting, I think if you are

567
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,760
Speaker 1: the most senior person at the table, it's your responsibility

568
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 1: to look around the table and think about who's not

569
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 1: represented and who's over represented, to be honest with you,

570
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:49,280
Speaker 1: And it goes beyond skin color and gender. It also

571
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:55,240
Speaker 1: gets to types of education backgrounds. Are they all financial people?

572
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,839
Speaker 1: Are there no management or HR type people. Are they

573
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 1: all people who have international experience and no one who

574
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 1: perhaps may have been a first gen person who worked

575
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 1: their way up through college. I think that's really critical.

576
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,800
Speaker 1: And then secondly, I would ask myself in what ways.

577
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 1: Am I showing up as a diversity leader? Right? Am

578
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:20,840
Speaker 1: I just delegating this responsibility to someone else and trusting

579
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: them to do their best? Or am I a participant

580
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 1: in a learner in what they are offering to the organization?

581
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:34,760
Speaker 1: And am I facilitating conversations with others who have similar

582
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 1: levels of responsibility and authority? I think one of the

583
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 1: most useful things for me has been to connect with

584
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 1: other deans and talk about ways in which we are

585
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 1: trying to diversify our faculty, to build in more multicultural

586
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 1: competence within the curriculum. We're not islands. Ultimately, we are

587
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: always in some level of community, and I think it's

588
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 1: important because of the work that I do, that I

589
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 1: bring that outside of my organization and talk to my

590
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 1: peers as well. Perfect Thank you so much for all

591
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 1: of that, Dr Thomas. Are there any resources that you

592
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 1: would share for anybody who maybe wants to do more

593
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 1: reading in this area to kind of stay up on

594
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 1: this work, anything that comes to mind? Sure, you know,

595
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:21,760
Speaker 1: I already mentioned the work of Ella Bell and Stella

596
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 1: and Como. They have a wonderful book. Are separate ways.

597
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:30,280
Speaker 1: I think that it's twenty anniversary, so it's been republished.

598
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 1: David Thomas, the president of more House, and Laura Morgan

599
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 1: Roberts and another co author have a book on race,

600
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 1: work and leadership. I have a chapter in that book

601
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,359
Speaker 1: called When Black Leaders Leave, which I think kind of

602
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 1: is summarized by a lot of our conversation today. But

603
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 1: also look in professional society. Society for Human Resource Management,

604
00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 1: for example, does excellent work. The calloust or in Ization,

605
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 1: which is a think tank in New York focused on

606
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 1: women's leadership, has been a really excellent role model when

607
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:11,720
Speaker 1: it comes to thinking about diversity and leadership and women

608
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 1: of color in particular. And then there are leaders around

609
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 1: us in our communities. They may not be corporate types,

610
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 1: they may not be M B A s or j

611
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 1: D s, but there are lots of excellent women leading

612
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 1: in our communities on our school boards that can teach

613
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 1: us many lessons. And where can we stay connected with you?

614
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 1: Dr Thomas? What is your website as well as any

615
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 1: social media handles you'd like to share? My website is

616
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 1: not all that exciting because it's worry about my role

617
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,480
Speaker 1: as Dan at you a B. But I will direct

618
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 1: you to my Twitter handle which is Dr d R

619
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,319
Speaker 1: M m I S s Keisha k e c I

620
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:53,840
Speaker 1: A d R m I S s k c I A.

621
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 1: And you can also find me on LinkedIn Keisha k

622
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 1: e c I A M. Thomas and we will be

623
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 1: sure to include all of that in the show notes.

624
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for sharing with us today, Dr Thomas.

625
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 1: Great to see Dr Joy as always, thank you. I'm

626
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 1: so glad Dr Thomas was able to share her expertise

627
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 1: with us today. To learn more about her and her work,

628
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 1: be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for

629
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 1: Black Girls dot com slash session to and be sure

630
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 1: to text two of your girls and tell them to

631
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 1: check out the episode right now. If you're looking for

632
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 1: a therapist in your area, be sure to check out

633
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 1: our therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com

634
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:38,359
Speaker 1: slash directory. And if you want to continue digging into

635
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 1: this topic or just be in community with other sisters,

636
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 1: come on over and join us in the Sister Circle.

637
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,360
Speaker 1: It's our cozy corner of the Internet design just for

638
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 1: black women. You can join us at community dot Therapy

639
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 1: for Black Girls dot com. This episode was produced by

640
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:58,399
Speaker 1: Freda Lucas and Elie Ellis and editing was done by

641
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 1: Dennis and Bradford. Thank you all so much for joining

642
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 1: me again this week. I look forward to continue in

643
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 1: this conversation with you all real soon. Take it care,