WEBVTT - TikTok's DoorDash Lady Reported Being Flashed — Now She's the One Facing Charges 0:00:04.080 --> 0:00:05.800 There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:13.399 of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Toad and this 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:17.800 is there are No Girls on the Internet. We need 0:00:17.840 --> 0:00:21.360 to have another conversation about door Dash Lady real name 0:00:21.480 --> 0:00:25.040 Olivia Henderson, a twenty three year old door dash delivery 0:00:25.120 --> 0:00:28.120 driver from Oswego, New York, who at the viral back 0:00:28.120 --> 0:00:31.360 in October of twenty twenty five after delivering an order 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:34.400 to a customer that she says she found asleep on 0:00:34.560 --> 0:00:38.280 his couch, pants around his ankles exposed when she dropped 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:42.239 off the order. So Olivia took a video, posted it 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:45.640 to TikTok with the tag me too, and almost thirty 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:50.040 million people watched it. Olivia's story kind of became an 0:00:50.120 --> 0:00:53.040 ink blot test for the Internet. What you saw in 0:00:53.080 --> 0:00:55.760 her story said a lot about what you already believed 0:00:55.840 --> 0:00:59.560 going into it. When I initially covered Olivia's story, I 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:02.160 really tried to lead with empathy, which I would one 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:04.960 hundred percent stand by. But there's also an update. So 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:08.320 here's where things stand now. So this week, Olivia was 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:12.720 indicted on two felony charges for recording that customer inside 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:15.840 his home without its consent and posting it publicly. A 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:19.040 grand jury reviewed the evidence and move forward with the charges. 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:23.000 Olivia pled not guilty and faces up to eight years 0:01:23.040 --> 0:01:26.800 in prison. Her next court date is June fifth, and 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:30.080 I wanted to revisit our initial conversation about what happened 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:32.840 from twenty twenty five because I still feel like it 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:35.720 really matters, but also wanted to make sure that you'll 0:01:35.720 --> 0:01:42.240 have the full picture before we get into it. So 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:45.160 we all know. The Internet loves a viral story. It 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:49.400 loves outrage, suspense, villains, and drama, all of it. But 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:52.480 what happens when the story is about a real woman 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:54.960 who says that she has been the victim of a 0:01:55.000 --> 0:01:58.800 sex crime and the platforms that ostensibly should be protecting 0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:02.120 her punish her instead. That is what happened to this 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:04.800 woman called Livy, a door dash driver in New York 0:02:04.800 --> 0:02:08.200 State whose story recently went viral on TikTok. I wanted 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:11.160 to talk about this on the News Roundup, but honestly, 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:12.679 I had so much to say about it that I 0:02:12.720 --> 0:02:15.840 thought this needs to be its own episode because I 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:18.360 think it shows us so much about where we're at 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:20.919 right now when it comes to the state of women 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:25.440 speaking up online. Mike when we were talking about potentially 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:28.760 doing an episode about this situation. In the beginning, when 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:31.440 I first started researching it, I was just curious about 0:02:31.440 --> 0:02:33.560 this story. I was seeing this story all over my 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:36.360 TikTok feed and I wanted to understand it better. But 0:02:36.440 --> 0:02:39.280 by the end of putting together my research and really 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:41.840 doing a deep dive into what's going on here, I 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:46.440 went from curious to pissed off and also quite worried 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:49.960 about what this situation means for all of us. So 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:52.440 I'm going to get into the logistics of what's going 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:55.040 on here with this viral door dash story on TikTok, 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:58.440 how AI is fueling how we got to this place 0:02:58.560 --> 0:02:59.760 and what it all means. 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:04.160 Because it seems like a complicated story, an interesting one, 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:06.239 I think, a good one for you to tell. 0:03:06.760 --> 0:03:09.320 In some ways it is complicated, but in other ways 0:03:09.360 --> 0:03:13.520 it's very uncomplicated tale as old as time, the most 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:16.959 simple story that we all recognize and understand. It's sort 0:03:16.960 --> 0:03:19.280 of both of those things at once. So here's what's 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:22.640 going on. On October twelfth, a woman called Livy, who 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:25.600 does door dash for a living, made a TikTok explaining 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:27.880 that she got an order on DoorDash from a customer 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:31.120 who asked her to leave the order on the porch outside. 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:33.480 When she got to the customer's home, she says that 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:36.480 she walks up the stairs to the porch and saw 0:03:36.680 --> 0:03:41.080 the door partially open, and inside was the customer laying 0:03:41.120 --> 0:03:45.600 across the sofa, supposedly asleep, laying motionless with his face 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:49.040 covered and his pants and underwear dad about his ankles 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:52.640 exposed from the waist down. I should explain some logistics 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:54.880 here that the way that the door in the couch 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:57.920 is situated, there is no way that anybody walking up 0:03:57.960 --> 0:04:00.240 on this porch, like the door dasher that you sum 0:04:00.320 --> 0:04:03.480 into your home, would not see somebody laying on the 0:04:04.000 --> 0:04:06.840 couch from where the couch is positioned. The couch that 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:09.680 he was on is right across from the door facing it. 0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:11.920 Like if somebody was standing on the porch and the 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:14.680 door was open somebody sitting on the couch, you would 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:17.480 see each other directly. Does that make sense? 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:19.880 It does? Yeah, And we'll link to the video in 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:20.480 the show notes. 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:24.720 Yeah, this episode will include some visual things. I will 0:04:24.760 --> 0:04:26.760 do my best to explain them, but this is not 0:04:26.800 --> 0:04:29.120 a video podcast, so we will put the links to 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:31.160 the things that you need to see, but I'll make 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:34.000 it clear what's going on even if you don't do that. 0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:39.159 So Livy's version of what I just explained is illustrated 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:42.200 in a TikTok that she made and posted that shows 0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:46.000 her standing outside of this porch with the door open, 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:50.040 with this man exposing himself in full view. Here's what 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:51.120 Livy said intor TikTok. 0:04:51.520 --> 0:04:55.720 The customer who committed a crime against me requested. 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:57.520 That their order be left at their front door, and 0:04:57.560 --> 0:05:00.520 when I arrived to their house, their front door was open. 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:03.279 It was fifty nine degrees fahrenheit, all of their lights 0:05:03.279 --> 0:05:06.200 were on, and they were sleeping on the couch within 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:09.240 eyesight of the front door, with their pants and underwear 0:05:09.240 --> 0:05:12.240 pulled down to their ankles. This person's name is Austin 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:14.080 and their last initial is N. 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:17.719 I reported this to DoorDash and the police, and DoorDash 0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:21.240 luckily banned the customer, but the police are doing nothing. 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:23.520 I also posted the video that I have of the 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:26.599 proof to TikTok, and after a day and a half 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:30.120 of it going completely viral, TikTok took down the video 0:05:30.680 --> 0:05:32.640 for suggestive content. 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:35.440 And gave my account a strike they've also. 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:37.560 Denied my appeal to have it reinstated. 0:05:37.800 --> 0:05:40.559 I'm absolutely reposting the video again, but with a little 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:43.600 sensor blur so it can't be removed for the same reason, 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:46.839 because this is literally the only justice I'm getting in 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:49.679 the wake of my victimhood. The police are doing nothing 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:52.239 to prevent or stop this man from doing it again, 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:55.440 and they're not doing anything to punish him for already 0:05:55.440 --> 0:05:58.760 having done it. So if the only justice I'm going 0:05:58.800 --> 0:05:59.320 to get. 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:01.320 Is the fact that he's banned off the platform and 0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:04.039 that video went viral and now he can live with 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:06.039 that shame and embarrassment. 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:07.279 Then that's what it's going to have to be. 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:12.680 So TikTok keep this video up. So Lidy says that 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:15.760 she reported this man to DoorDash, and DoorDash kicks the 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:19.400 man off of the platform, but they also kicked her 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:23.080 off the platform too, essentially blocking her from being able 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:25.320 to make money, and she says that DoorDash is her 0:06:25.320 --> 0:06:26.440 only source of income. 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:30.360 Hey guys, so DoorDash just deactivated me two days after 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:34.559 I reported my sexual assault. Hey guys, I just lost 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:38.960 my job and they won't tell me why. They're supposed 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:41.880 to send an email immediately after deactivation, providing you the 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:46.239 reason why and a link to appeal, and they didn't. 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:48.839 So I contacted support and they made me sit on 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:51.000 the phone with them for fifty minutes just to tell 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:52.560 me that they can't tell me the reason why and 0:06:52.600 --> 0:06:54.880 I have to just go ahead and appeal without knowing why, 0:06:56.720 --> 0:06:58.920 so my chances of getting my account back. They have 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:02.880 my money in that account. I was working, I was 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:05.800 literally working, and they deactivated me. 0:07:06.480 --> 0:07:08.680 This is not this is related. 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:14.080 They just punished me for posting about my sexual assault 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:19.560 while doordashing they just fired me, and the police are 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:20.240 doing nothing. 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:22.960 I lost my job in the pool. 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:25.040 That was my only way to make money to pay 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:25.679 my bills. 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:29.640 Initially, Liddy said that DoorDash never even told her why 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:32.320 they kicked her off the platform, though she does say 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:35.760 that she feels that it's connected to the TikTok that 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:39.000 she made about this man, which yeah it is. Doordasher 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:41.400 put out a statement explaining why they kicked her off 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:44.600 the platform. Livy says they made this statement without ever 0:07:44.720 --> 0:07:48.040 actually talking to her directly about why they deactivated her ACCU. 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:50.560 She says that when the general public found out why 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:54.000 she was deactivated from being on DoorDash is the same 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:56.560 time that she found out why she was deactivated. They 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:58.560 never talked to her this put out this statement. Here's 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:01.640 what DoorDash said. No one should ever have to experience 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:05.720 sexual assault, harassment, or abuse, and DoorDash never deactivates someone 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:08.880 for reporting it, full stop. We take these reports incredibly 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:11.800 seriously and work closely with law enforcement to investigate and 0:08:11.840 --> 0:08:15.560 support those affected. However, posting a video of a customer 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:18.720 in their home and disclosing their personal details publicly is 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:21.720 a clear violation of our policies. That is the sole 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:24.800 reason why this dasher's account was deactivated along with the 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:28.800 customers while we investigated. DoorDash also told Newsweek that they're 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:31.840 investigating to make sure that Livy gets whatever full payments 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:34.480 she's owed from the work she had done from DoorDash, 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:36.880 because she had not been able to cash out before 0:08:36.880 --> 0:08:40.040 her account was deactivated. Though I have no idea if 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:41.400 they're going to make good on this, it's just what 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:44.400 they said in their statement, So DoorDash is basically saying, 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:47.120 you know, hey, we didn't deactivate Livy's account because she 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:50.199 reported a sex crime. We deactivated her account because she 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:53.760 posted a video of a DoorDash customer. I'll say it 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:56.680 would have been nice if DoorDash told Livy this directly 0:08:56.800 --> 0:09:00.360 rather than simply deactivating her account with money in it. 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:02.800 But as we'll talk about in a moment, the whole 0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:06.319 dynamic of gig work is that companies like door dash 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:09.880 don't really have to do shit because they don't have employees, 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:13.000 they have contractors. And so I get where Livy is 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:14.679 coming from, but that is sort of the nature of 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:18.120 the beast here. So a big question that is coming 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:20.800 up online is whether or not Livy should have made 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:23.080 this video in the first place. Livy says that she 0:09:23.080 --> 0:09:26.520 had wanted video evidence of what happened, and I will say, 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:29.719 had she come to the Internet without video evidence of 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:33.000 what she says happened, I'm sure the conversation would have 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:34.559 been entirely different. 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:39.080 Yeah, And you know, there's something about this story that 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:42.680 really makes one want to, like, I don't know, like 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:45.080 like way in or like pulls you in to want 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:48.160 to say, like what she you know, was she and 0:09:48.200 --> 0:09:49.640 the ry? Was she in the wrong? Should she have 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:53.920 done this or that? Or something about the story really 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:57.000 pulls a person in, I think, and I think you're 0:09:57.040 --> 0:09:59.839 totally right that without that video, it's hard to even 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:04.320 that there would even be any story there beyond you know, 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:06.400 just what she's going through. 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:08.560 Exactly, And a lot of people are saying, oh, well, 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:10.400 I wouldn't have an issue with what she did if 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:14.320 she just sent that video directly to DoorDash and left 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:15.920 it at that, Like why did she have to post 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:18.400 as to TikTok and I get that. Livy says that 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:22.080 she called the non emergency police line to report this 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:25.280 to the police. After she reported it to DoorDash, she 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:27.520 says a police officer actually came out to speak with 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:30.080 her about what she wanted to do. She said that 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:32.839 she wanted to press charges if possible, to make sure 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:35.000 that this guy was not able to do this to 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:37.960 another person. In one of her videos, she actually points 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:40.439 out that this guy lives in a duplex, and she says, 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:42.520 what if there had been a kid out on the 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:45.720 porch on the other shared unit, And so she said 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:47.920 that she wanted to report this to the police just 0:10:47.960 --> 0:10:49.440 to make sure that this wasn't going to be a 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:53.280 recurring thing with this guy. But she says the police 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:57.200 told her that she couldn't really press charges in this state. 0:10:57.320 --> 0:10:59.480 Because this man was in his own house and that 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:02.440 it wasn't like he got up to lunge toward her 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:05.040 or anything like that. So Livy says that she posted 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:07.920 it because the police essentially weren't doing anything about it, 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:11.400 weren't taking it seriously. But her posting that video to 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:14.400 TikTok is what DoorDash says is the reason for her 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:18.160 being deactivated from the platform. Honestly, I can't act like 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:20.440 I don't see where DoorDash is coming from here that 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:24.640 they probably can't have door dashers posting videos of their 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:28.360 customers like this on TikTok. Now what I have done 0:11:28.400 --> 0:11:32.199 this if I were Livy, Probably not, because personally, at 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:34.880 this point in my life, I almost never think that 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:36.920 bringing something to the Internet is going to make a 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:40.240 situation better. These days, I have only seen the Internet 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:44.640 getting involved making things worse. But that's just me, and 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:47.400 you know, not for nothing. I also don't think that 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:51.960 anybody should be posting uncensored photos or video of other 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:54.360 people's body without their consent, Like, I want to be 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:56.600 clear that that's not something I think is an okay 0:11:56.640 --> 0:11:59.679 thing to be doing, and yeah, there might be consequences 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:02.360 for it. Again, Livy says that she was doing that 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:05.880 in an attempt to get some kind of recourse using 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:08.760 social media, since she says the police said there was 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:10.360 nothing that could be done because this guy was in 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:13.000 his own home. I get what she's saying, but I 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:15.959 also get what her choice of posting this guy's body 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:19.319 without the black bar over it on TikTok is a 0:12:19.360 --> 0:12:23.280 big source of consternation online. But I also think we 0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:29.280 really crave perfect victims, right, victims who would act and 0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:32.640 behave exactly like we think that we would act and 0:12:32.679 --> 0:12:35.920 behave in whatever situation. So the fact that Livy is 0:12:35.960 --> 0:12:39.160 doing something that I personally would not do doesn't mean anything, right. 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:41.120 I think we really had this idea. When we hear 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:42.960 something like this, we think, well, what would I do? 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:45.760 And if this person didn't do things like I think 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:48.640 I would do things, something must be up. She must 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:51.959 be lying. That's a red flag. I also think the 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:56.720 fact that Livy is on TikTok talking very loudly about 0:12:56.760 --> 0:12:59.560 this thing that happened to her, I just think people 0:12:59.720 --> 0:13:03.439 don't like that. Like, I'm sad to see that people 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:06.920 have taken one specific bit from one of Livy's mini 0:13:07.000 --> 0:13:10.360 videos about this where she's very upset, and they've turned 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:13.920 it into a really hurtful meme on TikTok. 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:19.120 A man's world. I'm the victim, remember. 0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:22.520 So they've taken a screenshot which is a close up 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:26.320 of her face while Livy is pleading with people to 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:28.800 remember that she is the victim in this situation, and 0:13:28.840 --> 0:13:31.280 it's been making the rounds on TikTok. If you check 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:34.960 the comments of Livy's other posts on TikTok, people are 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:38.640 putting that screenshot of that image of her face very 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:42.120 pained while while speaking to you at this situation in 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:44.960 the comments to make fun of her. Her face in 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:49.760 this image is tortured and pained because she is very upset, 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:53.319 and it reminds me if you've seen that image of 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:57.439 it's kind of a if you googled liberal feminist triggered. 0:13:57.840 --> 0:13:59.760 It's a picture that makes her look like she is, 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:02.280 and it's an image that it's become a meme when 0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:07.080 people want to reference sort of triggered angry feminist meltdown. 0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:10.760 But when you actually look at the real full video 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:14.679 that that image was taken from, it's a feminist woman 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:19.720 in a campus debate and she's just having a fairly 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:23.760 normal conversation with somebody. It's a conversation that's like somewhat 0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:27.240 hostile because she's citing rape statistics or something, But she's 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:31.440 not screaming. She barely even raises her voice in that video. 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:35.640 The only issue is is that she has an expressive face, 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:38.800 and so in this image she looks like she is 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:42.640 screaming or having some sort of a triggered feminist meltdown. 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:46.080 But really she's just having a pretty normal conversation with someone, 0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:49.000 I would say, even like a fairly civil conversation with somebody. 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:53.560 And yet online she has become the face of triggered 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:58.600 lying feminists everywhere. Never mind that men like Alex Jones 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:01.720 and Andrew Breitbart, Like, do you remember seeing what they 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:04.560 looked like when they would talk. They would be frothing 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:09.000 at the mouth and screaming and veins popping out of 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:12.880 their necks and foreheads, and fans loved it. So the 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:17.040 rules are simply different for men. You know, Andrew Breitbart 0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:21.120 did not become the face of triggered men everywhere when 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:23.880 he would have legit freakouts on camera. 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:29.400 Yeah, the outrage and the performative like energy I think 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:33.000 was a big part of it for those guys, absolutely so. 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:36.720 I think this image and clip of Livy speaking with 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:40.080 a pained face having a big emotion says a lot 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:43.240 about how we want and expect women to behave after 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:46.520 experiencing something traumatic, and how much stigma there is around 0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:50.040 labeling oneself as a victim. I also think we want 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:53.200 victims who are quiet about what they've experienced. When someone 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:56.440 screaming about it, even if whatever happened to them is 0:15:56.560 --> 0:15:59.120 worth screaming about, I think for a lot of people 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:03.240 they automatically assume that that person screaming is in the wrong, 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:06.200 because what we actually want is a society where women 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:09.200 who are harmed also just shut up about it. So 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:12.280 people are also taking issue with the fact that Livy 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:15.320 says that she was quote sexually assaulted in her TikTok, 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:19.000 saying how could someone sexually assault you if they didn't 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:21.720 touch you, if you'd never had physical contact. This is 0:16:21.720 --> 0:16:23.520 a little bit in the weeds, but according to the 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:27.080 Office on Violence against Women, the term sexual assault means 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:31.280 any non consens sexual act prescribed by federal, tribal, or 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:34.640 state law, including when the victim lacks capacity to consent, 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:38.160 but in a legal sense, state laws can vary, so 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:42.160 can the definitions used for sexual assault. So flashing or 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:46.840 indecent exposure may be a sexual offense and a sex crime, 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:50.760 but it is not always classified legally as sexual assault 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:53.680 in a stripped legal sense, because that depends on the state. 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:56.960 It really strikes me as an odd thing to get 0:16:57.040 --> 0:17:00.320 hung up on this specific legal designation that a lot 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:03.240 of people have on TikTok to call Livy a liar, 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:06.200 But I did want to mention it, and I guess 0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:08.720 I wish that all of this discourse about the technical 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:11.960 definitions of sexual assault versus sexual offense versus sex crime 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:15.640 was happening in an effort to educate people rather than 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:17.879 belittle this woman who says that she was forced to 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:20.240 look at a stranger's penis while just trying to do 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:23.040 her job. But here we are, like I've seen a 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:26.040 lot of people say Livy is lying about saying that 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:30.240 she was sexually assaulted, and that minimizes actual sexual assault 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:33.520 and makes it harder for actual victims. But in decent 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:36.359 exposure is very much a sex crime, even if it 0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:41.040 is not specifically legally categorized as sexual assault. It's very 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:42.840 clear to me that people who are bringing this up, 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:46.280 are trying to use it to parse Livy's words to 0:17:46.440 --> 0:17:50.040 make her look like an unreliable narrator and a liar. 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:53.600 They're not doing it in an effort to actually advocate 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:56.720 for victims of sexualized violence. Because even if this is 0:17:56.760 --> 0:17:59.640 not legally a sexual assault the way that Livy says 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:02.480 it is, it is still a sex crime. Yeah. 0:18:02.520 --> 0:18:04.360 I think a good sort of test for that sort 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:07.639 of thing is like, why don't you try it at work? Like, 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:10.240 if it's not actually any sort of a problem, just 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:12.080 go ahead and do it at work and see what happens. 0:18:12.640 --> 0:18:15.280 Yeah. I want all of these guys who were saying 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:18.400 it's not actually a crime, Yeah, do it to your 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:20.359 hr lady and see what she says. See how it 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:35.840 goes for you. Let's take a quick break at our back. 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:40.600 So Lviy post this video to TikTok and says that 0:18:40.760 --> 0:18:44.639 TikTok took action against her for uploading this video. She 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:47.399 says the app initially removed her video and issued a 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:50.720 strike against her account when she initially posted it with 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:54.320 the man with his pants down visible. She uploaded it again, 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:58.359 obscuring the man's junk from the video, but that video 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:01.560 was also removed and she got a second strike. Now, 0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:05.399 if it sounds like I'm being super careful and specific 0:19:05.480 --> 0:19:08.560 about how I'm describing the situation, it is because the 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:11.560 entire internet, Okay, we'll have the entire Internet, but a 0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:14.520 whole hell of a lot of people have decided that 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:18.520 Livy is lying about what happened, because at first it 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:22.920 seemed like people were supporting Livy, and then something turned 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:26.040 and to me, it seemed like one of the many 0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:29.280 examples that we have of a woman being smeared by 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:33.280 millions of people online for speaking up about something that 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:36.800 she says happened to her. Right, there's a whole shade 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:38.680 of something that we talk about a lot on the podcast, 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:44.040 when people appoint themselves as investigators to litigate the details 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:46.840 of other people's personal lives. I think there's a lot 0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:50.720 of true crime brain rot out there that happens where 0:19:50.760 --> 0:19:54.520 people online decide that they know the real story that 0:19:54.600 --> 0:19:57.240 the rest of us aren't being told about what's happening 0:19:57.240 --> 0:20:00.119 with these strangers. And it's one of the one of 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:02.680 the reasons why when these stories come up, which they 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:07.280 often do online, I am the you know, wet blanket 0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:09.800 voice that says, maybe it's not good to have millions 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:12.440 of people jumping into the business of strangers in this way. 0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:16.640 I totally get that it is exhilarating. Who doesn't love 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:20.080 going down a rabbit hole of somebody else's drama. But 0:20:20.160 --> 0:20:23.400 it's one thing when we're talking about a fictional character. 0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:27.359 It's another thing when we're talking about a real, everyday person. 0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:30.359 We saw it with West Elm Caleb, the guy who 0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:32.760 worked at West Elm who met a bunch of women 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:35.560 on a dating app and was making them all personalized 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:39.040 playlists on Spotify to woo them. We saw it with 0:20:39.080 --> 0:20:43.200 that TikTok woman who surprised visited her long distance boyfriend 0:20:43.200 --> 0:20:45.439 and he gives her kind of a weird chili reception, 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:48.399 and the entire internet decided that he was cheating on 0:20:48.440 --> 0:20:51.280 her because they all became body language experts. We saw 0:20:51.320 --> 0:20:54.919 it with that Coldplay concert couple, you know, that couple 0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:58.920 who made a very weird kind of caught reaction when 0:20:58.920 --> 0:21:01.119 they were on the jumbo t on canoodling at a 0:21:01.119 --> 0:21:05.400 cold Play concert and Coldplay frontman Chris Martin wondered out 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:07.440 loud like, oh, they must be having an affair, which, 0:21:07.520 --> 0:21:09.360 by the way, I have no idea if this is true. 0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:12.720 But after the hubbub died down, I read that at 0:21:12.840 --> 0:21:15.880 least one of the couples in that situation said that, yeah, 0:21:15.880 --> 0:21:18.480 I'm still legally married, but I've been separated from my 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:21.719 spouse for a while when that cold Play concert happened, 0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:25.199 Like my spouse is also dating. We're not together, so 0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:28.280