WEBVTT - Troy Carter 0:00:04.480 --> 0:00:07.240 Hey, This week we have a very special episode my 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:10.960 interview with Troy Carter at the Music Media Summit in 0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:16.000 Santa Barbara, California. Yes, today, Troy is director of Creative 0:00:16.040 --> 0:00:20.320 Services that Spotify, really spearheading change in the music business. 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:25.040 But before that he was a manager. He managed Lady Gaga, 0:00:25.120 --> 0:00:29.400 Broke Lady Gaga. What John legend Back has done so 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:32.160 many things with acts. You're gonna hear about his ops 0:00:32.280 --> 0:00:35.840 and his downs. Troy is completely honest. I know you'll 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:46.440 love this. So, Troy, how did you get into this 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:51.279 crazy business? I started off just as a kid in 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:55.560 West Billy. Uh grew up loving hip hop music and 0:00:55.640 --> 0:01:00.280 hip hop culture. Um. I wanted to be a rapper. 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:03.120 I wanted to write graffiti. I wanted to be a breakdancer. 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:07.560 So anything that was immersive and hip hop culture, you know, 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:10.240 I just wanted to be around it. So you're not 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:11.880 a woman, I can ask this question. How old are 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:16.440 you today? Forty five? So when you get into it, 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:21.720 MTV ruled okay, But Philadelphia always had a heavy soul culture. 0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:24.760 So how did you first get infected by music? But 0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:28.479 we didn't we didn't have cable. We only had the 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:33.800 five channels and um, and we have Friday Night videos 0:01:34.520 --> 0:01:38.360 and the USA Networkers on NBC. It was I forget 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:41.400 which network it was. It might have been NBC. David 0:01:41.440 --> 0:01:44.360 Benjamin ran that I remember, but it was like, um, 0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:46.400 you know, it would come on late at night, and 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:50.360 it was before music was segregated, so you would watch 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:54.600 run Dy m C. You would watch Blondie, Michael Jackson, 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:57.960 Prince you know. So it was all types of music there. 0:01:58.040 --> 0:02:01.639 So it kind of exposed me to pop music, rock music. 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:04.360 But and you know, and and like I said, and 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:06.760 I love hip hop. So but it made me well 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:08.920 round it from from a music Was there music in 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:11.040 your house growing up? It's a ton of music in 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:14.000 my house growing up. So. Um. It was a station 0:02:14.040 --> 0:02:17.720 in Philly called w d A S and UM, which 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:19.920 it was a local station. A guy named butter Ball 0:02:20.040 --> 0:02:22.600 ran the station and um, but it was a lot 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:28.400 of the Philly International records, UM, a lot everything from Uh, 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:30.840 Marvin Gaye was big in our house. Earth Wind and 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:36.240 Fire was big. Um she Stevie Wonder. So I grew 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:37.720 up on a lot of souls. Did you play an 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:41.639 instrument growing up? Nope, didn't play an didn't play an instrument. Okay, 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:45.440 so you're listening to music and you're watching Friday Night videos. 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:47.760 At what point do you say I can do that? 0:02:48.320 --> 0:02:50.600 You know what? My my, my brother and my cousin 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:54.640 they used to DJ and. Um, so I tried DJ 0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:57.720 and I was terrible. And then I said, um, well, 0:02:57.760 --> 0:02:59.520 maybe you know I'm gonna try to be a rapper. 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:03.320 So I so I started rapping. And in ninth grade, 0:03:03.440 --> 0:03:06.280 me and my best friend had this idea. We met 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:08.840 in English class and we said, you know, if if 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:11.800 we ever meet Jazzy Jeff and Fresh Prince, they're gonna 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:14.200 give us a record deal. So we used to go 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:17.280 and and try to hang out at Jazzy Jeff's studio, 0:03:17.720 --> 0:03:21.320 go down there almost every single day. Um, Jeff never 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:24.000 would let us into the studio. How many other people 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:25.519 were hanging out other than the two of you? It 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:27.360 just it was three. It was three of us. The 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:30.640 group was called too too many, and um we called 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:33.320 ourselves too too many because we only used to have 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:38.400 enough money for one of us. So so it was 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:40.040 three of us that used to hang out in front 0:03:40.080 --> 0:03:42.440 of But when you were hanging out, uh where, there 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:44.520 are also a lot of other people want to be 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:46.960 hanging out at the studio. No, so they were all 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:49.480 inside the studio, so we were trying to get in, 0:03:49.680 --> 0:03:53.000 so we would only want to bees and um so so, 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:56.120 and we sincerely had this idea like we were that 0:03:56.360 --> 0:03:59.440 naive that we were gonna meet Jazzy Jeff and Fresh 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:01.320 Prince and they are going to give us a record deal. 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:04.560 And my best friend, he used to always say, thoughts 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:07.760 become things. You gotta think positive, you gotta think positive. 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:10.040 And one day they let us in and we auditioned 0:04:10.120 --> 0:04:12.960 for him, and what happened. They gave us a record 0:04:12.960 --> 0:04:19.120 deal with a lot of experience under your belt. This 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:22.200 is not the way the story usually goes. Do you 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:24.840 think you were deserving of a record deal? Yes, but 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:27.560 you know what, what we found out though that we sucked, 0:04:27.720 --> 0:04:30.400 you know, so I think you know Will what Will? 0:04:30.720 --> 0:04:36.160 We met Will Uh DJ, Jazzy Jeff and his manager 0:04:36.240 --> 0:04:38.479 James Lasseter. It was like a whole crew of guys 0:04:38.480 --> 0:04:40.440 hanging out in the studio and we popped in our 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:43.800 demo and you know, um and Will said, how are 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:45.600 you guys getting home? And we said we don't know. 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:48.080 So he said, okay, I'll give you guys a ride home, 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:49.960 and he drove drove us home that night, and he 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:52.680 told our families, you know, dropped us off, and he said, 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:56.719 you know I got them, and um, but we I 0:04:56.760 --> 0:04:59.599 think more than anything else, more than even the music. 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:02.760 He was expected our hustle and you know, we were 0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:06.240 silly kids, and you know so I think he liked us. 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:09.280 So what happened? Maybe you gave you a record deal? Yes, 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:11.880 and we signed. We signed the Jive Records through Will's 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:15.600 production company, and we put out a record and got dropped. 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:20.440 It was like all within like all within like a 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:22.520 year and a half is like the super this kind 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:25.960 of whirl and uh, oh my god, our dreams came 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:28.600 true to oh my god, this is the biggest disaster. 0:05:28.839 --> 0:05:31.120 My life is over. Did you get an advance? Did 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:33.440 you get any money? Got in advance? I think we 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:36.200 we got in advance of about I think it was 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:40.240 like thirty five thousand dollars, which might have been thirty 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:43.160 five million dollars and um, you know, because we had 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:46.280 never gotten any money like you know before and um, 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:49.280 and we divided it up amongst the three of us. 0:05:49.600 --> 0:05:51.920 And what did you do with your twelve grand I 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:57.840 went straight to the car dealership like every rapper and uh, 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:02.479 and I bought a used OUTI five thousand. That was 0:06:02.520 --> 0:06:04.920 a stick shift and I had never driven a stick 0:06:05.000 --> 0:06:08.440 shift before, but I wanted that car. And I think 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:10.800 I burned out the clutch by the time I got home. 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:14.640 So I burned through the money in the clutch within 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:17.200 like weeks, just because you told me the story, and 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:19.279 I don't want to forget it. You do tell a 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:23.359 story of buying a Lexus use Lexus and getting stopped 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:27.599 for driving while black. How long after this was? That? 0:06:27.600 --> 0:06:31.160 That was? That was after? That was? That was years later? 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:35.760 And um, I started promoting shows in Philadelphia, so I 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:39.640 would promote these concerts. Um so like Notorious b I, G. 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:43.400 Jay Z, Foxy Brown, a bunch of the New Woutang clan, 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:46.040 a bunch of the New York rappers, and um and 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:50.120 I bought a car off of Foxy Brown's manager, a 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:53.360 guy named Don Poo and UM and you know, I 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:56.279 drove the car back to Philly and that next week, No, 0:06:56.440 --> 0:07:00.320 with no exaggeration, within one week, I had gotten holed 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:04.800 over by the police six times within one week. But 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:07.000 you know it was one time. You know, it was 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:11.080 a Saturday afternoon, and um, I had bags like luggage 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:14.040 and the trunk and I pull up and up, um 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:16.000 and up at Derby and I get pulled over by 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:18.920 the police and they make me get out of the 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:21.520 car sit on the side of the curb while they 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:24.440 throw all of my stuff out on the street. And 0:07:24.480 --> 0:07:26.960 so where I was at it was like a shopping district. 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:30.280 So it's a Saturday afternoon in front of the movie theater, 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:34.200 hundreds of people. You know, it was it was the 0:07:34.240 --> 0:07:36.960 most it was probably one of the most belittling things. 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:39.920 And then once everything checked out, you know, the cops said, 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:42.000 you know, put your ship back in the car, and 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:44.200 just you know, they put they pull off and I'm 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:47.560 left putting my underwear and everything else back into the 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:51.200 you know, into into the into into my car. So 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:54.320 you know, it's so you have an experience like that 0:07:55.160 --> 0:07:59.280 where many experiences like and that's right, was going but 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:01.480 that was a experienced before I was gonna ask you 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:04.240 about previous growing up. How does that what where does 0:08:04.240 --> 0:08:09.160 that leave your viewpoint in terms of race relations. Um, 0:08:09.200 --> 0:08:12.080 you know it's complicated, right, because I think you know, 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:17.040 I think you got so it was more police relations 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:20.080 than race relations, where where where I grew up because 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:23.360 it was only black people who where where I grew up. 0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:27.200 So it wasn't really any real racial issues. But we're 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:31.320 the cops black or white both, so blue is what 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:35.560 they were, right and um and and so we were 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:41.360 harassed and and and profiled and we didn't have It 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:45.000 wasn't a thing where when things happened in your neighborhood 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:48.240 you called the police, you know, so um and that 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:51.480 and that was the that was the relationship and um 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:56.480 so So I didn't really learn about race relations until 0:08:56.480 --> 0:08:59.520 I really started traveling to a lot of places, you know, 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:03.080 through through out throughout the country, and um and then 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:07.320 that that's when I really started, you know, seeing Philly 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:11.040 is very segregated, but it was very segregated, gated by 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:14.080 the way. So Italians lived in a certain area, Blacks 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:16.320 lived in a certain area, Puerto Ricans lived in a 0:09:16.360 --> 0:09:19.800 certain area, Jews lived in a certain area, and it 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:24.079 wasn't a thing where it was any real I never 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:29.160 felt that sort of tension because everybody stayed in their 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:32.280 own pockets for the most part, almost kind of like 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:35.360 l a Alas racially segregated too. But when you were 0:09:35.400 --> 0:09:39.880 making the deal with dj Jazzy Jeff and Will Smith. 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:43.000 Are you still in high school? Yeah? I dropped out 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:45.960 of high school and then, um, I dropped out in 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:50.800 eleventh grade and my mom she put me in a 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:55.880 program called job Corps, which is like jail meets college 0:09:56.160 --> 0:09:59.959 and uh and it's and it was important to posit 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:02.880 in Maryland. So basically she said, if you want to 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:05.240 do this music thing, you better come home with a 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:08.280 piece of paper. And you know, because I just wanted 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:11.160 to pursue music. And at eleventh grade, I quit school. 0:10:11.679 --> 0:10:14.040 Just stopping there for a second. You quit school because 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:16.520 you were that excited about music, or you're also a 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:19.200 poor student or an attentive student. It was I just 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:23.600 was bored, Like I would I would go to school, 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:26.559 check in with my advisor, hang out with my friends, 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:29.400 and then we would go on these adventures you know, 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:33.160 sometimes like for me is crazy. I would end up. 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:36.040 I would end up at a library some days and 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:39.959 just studying subjects that I wanted to study. We would 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:42.920 have or we would have hooky parties, you know until 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:45.120 my mom got home from work and then we would 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:48.600 clear the house out and um, but we every day 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:52.959 was this sort of adventure. But school I just I 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:56.640 was curious about learning, but not what they would teach 0:10:56.679 --> 0:10:58.400 me in school. So how long did the job Corps 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:01.800 program last? I stayed in AP Corps for a little. 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:04.959 I got my I got my g D and record time. 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:06.560 It was like I was trying to get out of 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:09.480 this place as fast as you could. How fast did 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:12.840 you get the GD? Probably? I think a little under 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:15.760 a year maybe, And it was like, because it's the worst, 0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:22.040 this is where the courts a point juvenile delinquents, so Virginia, 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:25.280 New York, d C. You know, so they just put 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:28.960 you all in one place essentially, and um, and you 0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:31.160 want to get out as fast as you can. But 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:34.280 isn't that the place that would tend you know, their 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:36.319 theory on jail is you got to jail you to 0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:39.120 learn how to become a criminal. When you're in this program, 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:41.719 did you learn how to act bad? Yes? So so 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:47.480 job Corps it was, um, it was. It was definitely 0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:50.960 a place where you had it was many sort of 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:55.599 many criminal imprise enterprises and clicks built around and it. 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:58.920 You know, you had gang members on campus from different gangs, 0:11:59.000 --> 0:12:02.679 you know, through throughout uh, you know, the Northeast corridor 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:07.000 and I think because I was always small, you know, 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:10.559 and and you know, and I didn't get caught up 0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:13.400 and being just with the guys from Philly. So I 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:15.680 would hang out with the New York guys, the Virginia 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:21.320 guys and kind of stay away from any sort of 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:25.440 the the the warring factions with with within within within 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:27.719 job corps. And so how long were you in job 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:30.360 Corps overall? For for almost a year? Okay, So when 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:32.080 you got your g D you were out. I was out. 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:34.520 And the deal, the record deal was after you. That 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:38.240 was after Okay, So the act fails, you've blown the money, 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:42.680 then what? UM? You know, I remember being at my 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:45.320 grandmother's house when I got the call that they were 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:50.120 dropping us from from the record label and UM and 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:52.760 I and I was in her in my grandmother's room, 0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:55.280 and because I was on the phone, I got the 0:12:55.320 --> 0:12:59.080 call and it broke my heart because, you know, it 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:02.720 was something I felt like we worked really hard for. UM. 0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:04.960 I really didn't have a plan B of what I 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:07.720 was gonna do. I was embarrassed that, you know, we 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:10.640 had gotten this far and and and now you know, 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:16.520 how do we tell people this? UM? And from there, 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:20.040 I just I started I learned a lot about the 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:25.400 business from that from that experience, and UM, and I 0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:29.160 asked James Lasseter, who was Will Smith's manager, UM, could 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:31.920 I start working with him? And I started working at 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:34.520 the recording studio and I was his assistant. Was it 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:39.079 pretty much just that fast? It was probably over, if 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:41.920 I had to guess, maybe over a six month time 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:46.560 period where I sort of transitioned into more of the business, 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:50.000 because we ever have a straight job working at the supermarket? 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:53.080 Any of that? Did I while I was a kid? No, 0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:56.839 while in this interim between h getting dropped from the 0:13:56.880 --> 0:13:58.920 label and going to work for the management, I had 0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:03.440 one period where I couldn't find It was that sort 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:06.560 of And I don't know if I even if I 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:10.479 ever told this this story before, but UM, I remember 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:14.600 I couldn't find a job, and I didn't have any money. 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:17.520 I had kind of given up on on the on 0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:22.720 the record business. And at one point I've filed for 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:27.520 UH for for welfare and I got I had gotten 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:31.440 one check, and I remember giving the money from my 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:34.120 check to my aunt because my younger cousin had just 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:36.520 gotten killed, and you know, they were doing this funeral 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:40.200 or whatever. And then I'm like, it's just uh that 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:42.400 was It was just like a low point and I'm like, 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:44.840 this isn't what I want my my life to be. 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:48.520 And um, but as a kid, I worked at McDonald's, 0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:52.000 I worked at Burger King, I worked at um uh 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:55.320 Olga's kitchen, which was like a restaurant, and so I 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:58.120 had all types of odd jobs here, here and there. 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:00.200 And so you go to work in the record eating 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:03.320 studio and for your the manager lasseter, what are you doing? 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:07.760 Um everything car getting car wash, booking sessions for DJ 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:11.960 Jazz Jeff, carrying records for Jazz Jeff. Um. But you know, 0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:15.120 with James, when I was James's assistant, the best part 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:17.520 of it was I used to have to run his 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:20.480 phone calls. So I had to listen in on every 0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:23.360 phone call that he did by rolling his calls. So 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:26.440 it kind of taught me the sort of vernacular and 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:29.520 and sort of cadence how people talk to each other 0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:32.960 on on the phone, you know. And I think one 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:36.400 of the biggest things was, you know, I thought everything 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:39.400 was all business with people, but you know, just hearing 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:42.240 them talk about people's families and kids and you know, 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:45.840 people they would talk for ten fifteen minutes about everything 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:48.160 else before they kind of got into this. I think 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:50.320 people you're so hungry when you get into the business, 0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:53.040 you have meetings, immediately started the sales pitch. They don't 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:55.160 really people want to know who are you, what's going on? 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:57.920 You are reasonable person. So so that that was good 0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:01.600 for me to learn very lead because um and and 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:04.560 James and he and are still really really close to 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:08.920 this day. But he he was a guy who we 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:12.080 grew up eight blocks away from each other, like and 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:14.680 what we didn't know My mom and his mom used 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:17.120 to catch the bus together, and you know, he had 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:20.880 become Jazzy Jeff and Fresh Prince's manager because he was 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:23.360 the only guy in the neighborhood with a car, like 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:25.920 you know, because because back back then you used to 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:29.200 have to put you know, turntables and everything and load 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:31.320 the cars up or whatever. He was the only guy 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:34.960 with a car. So um So seeing a guy who 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:38.040 grew up, you know, right in our neighborhood, it kind 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:41.760 of showed me like, okay, if James can do it 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:45.320 and talk to like studio executives and record company heads, 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:48.160 and it just made it less than a little less 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:50.440 in timidity and for for me, And so what was 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:56.200 your breakthrough from being assistent gopher to the next level. Um, James, 0:16:56.760 --> 0:17:00.320 uh So, so like in between that time, you know, 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:04.000 I was promoting these shows and and Philly and okay, 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:06.320 just a little bit slow. You're promoting him yourself or 0:17:06.359 --> 0:17:09.720 with James. So so James h ended up moving to 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:12.040 l A and he was doing he started doing Fresh 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:14.720 Prince of bel Air. I had come out to l 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:17.359 A for a little bit. I went back to Philly 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:20.919 and I was from promoting. I started off promoting like clubs, 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:23.600 and then I would get acts to performing in the 0:17:23.680 --> 0:17:27.880 clubs and um, and I would collect money from guys 0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:32.760 and my neighborhood essentially, so it would be guys who 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:34.520 have money. I said, you know, at that time, I 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:37.040 didn't know it was called money laundering because guys would 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:40.359 give me money like hey, this is great. And so 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:43.280 in reality you were money laundering. You were just unaware. 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:46.600 I just was unaware. Now, no statue and all those 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:51.240 guys are probably in jail. Um. But I would do 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:54.760 these do these shows with all of the rappers. And 0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:58.800 this is before it was Live Nation and all of 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:01.200 the big conglomerate it's and it was a local guy 0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:04.159 in Philly. Named Larry Maggott who used to promote the 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:08.320 concerts in Philly if their spectrum where the roof blew exactly, 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:11.520 and but they didn't do hip hop because hip hop shows, 0:18:11.720 --> 0:18:14.400 you know, and then fights and shootings and couldn't get 0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:18.359 insured and um, and I was one of the crazy 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:21.400 guys who would do it. And I've started meeting all 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:26.240 of these people through these relationships, and I met Puffy 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:30.280 through promoteing a notorious b I bit slower. Being a 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:34.000 promoter is a license to go out of business. Okay, 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:37.080 people usually like even Leor, he had one successful gig 0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:38.760 and then he lost all that money and more on 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:41.800 the next gig. So in your a particular case, every 0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:44.040 gig I didn't think would be in the black. No, 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:49.000 it's you know, you had really really really great nights 0:18:49.520 --> 0:18:52.760 and you had some really really really bad nights, and 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:54.919 you know it was it was. I remember it was 0:18:54.960 --> 0:18:58.520 a rap group on Jive called foos Chnickens and um 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:00.520 and I used to love their music, and I think 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:02.320 I might have been the only person that loved the 0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:06.639 music because literally, no exaggeration, I had five people show up, 0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:09.720 but I still paid him a hundred percent of the 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:15.880 money built the relationship. It was bad shows where we 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:20.399 were down, but every single act got paid. So but 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:23.359 wasn't it the money of the so called criminals that 0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:26.520 was paying them? Yeah, and what of the criminals? What 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:29.080 are the criminals say when they were losing money? They 0:19:29.080 --> 0:19:31.280 were happy to be there. It's like you're hanging out 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:38.440 with Biggie, Okay. So it's like hanging you're hanging out. 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:42.640 So so everybody, everybody, and and was funny about hip 0:19:42.640 --> 0:19:48.680 hop as the streets and music. We were all contemporaries, 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:52.960 So j and Dame and their whole crew. They were 0:19:53.000 --> 0:19:56.320 street guys from New York coming to hang out with 0:19:56.400 --> 0:20:00.200 us Big and Don Poo and Mark Pitts and all 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:02.760 of those guys. They were street guys coming out to 0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:06.640 hang with us. Wu Tang from Staten Island. So it 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:10.800 was it was a thing where everybody felt it was 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:15.679 everybody was really respectful of of of each other in 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:19.000 that way because we knew what it took to get there. 0:20:19.200 --> 0:20:22.400 And and it was almost a thing where you couldn't 0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:25.080 go out the back door. It's just, you know, just 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:28.080 from a street code perspective, you can't leave out of 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:31.080 the back door. So you got these guys to come. 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:34.439 And this is before it was like bank wiring and 0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:36.919 all of that stuff. So you would pay them that 0:20:37.160 --> 0:20:40.360 money up front, the front up front, but when they 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:43.080 showed up, you better have you know, you had to 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:45.840 have the rest of that. You're talking about the street 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:49.200 you know, cred and the similarity. But getting people from 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:53.240 different communities, was there also friction? Never mind the money, 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:55.560 you know what, most of the most of the friction 0:20:55.720 --> 0:20:58.600 sort of came from just the nature of the beast 0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:04.760 of doing these type of shows and these type of neighborhoods. Right, 0:21:04.840 --> 0:21:08.000 so it's you got rival factions that are gonna are 0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:11.800 gonna show up, and um, it could be a bad 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:16.879 night when somebody steps on somebody's shoe and they don't say, 0:21:17.280 --> 0:21:19.560 you know, excuse me or I'm sorry, and that could 0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:22.080 end up in something or it might have been something 0:21:22.119 --> 0:21:26.439 that happened weeks before that. You know, people just happened 0:21:26.440 --> 0:21:30.320 to to to see each other, so you and um, 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:34.760 it's par for the course. Okay, So we didn't know, 0:21:34.920 --> 0:21:39.479 to be honest though, we didn't know any different. So 0:21:39.520 --> 0:21:42.400 it wasn't you know, sort of and it wasn't strange. 0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:44.600 It wasn't like it's kind of like that movie Hoop 0:21:44.680 --> 0:21:48.640 Dreams when they celebrate the kids sixteenth birthday and they said, 0:21:48.680 --> 0:21:52.640 we're thrilled he just made it to sixteen. And when 0:21:52.680 --> 0:21:55.719 when I said, it took to me eighteen and twenty 0:21:55.760 --> 0:21:58.439 one in my mind with what were the ages in 0:21:58.480 --> 0:22:00.240 my mind that that I made it to eight teen, 0:22:00.320 --> 0:22:02.600 and that that I made it the one and my 0:22:02.720 --> 0:22:05.439 closest cousin. He and I grew up together and we 0:22:05.440 --> 0:22:08.359 were like this. Um, he got killed when he was 0:22:08.440 --> 0:22:11.920 when he was seventeen years seventeen. What was what precipitated 0:22:12.000 --> 0:22:16.600 his death? He was out at the Chinese restaurant, Chinese Takeout, 0:22:16.680 --> 0:22:20.439 getting chicken wings, and somebody decided that they were going 0:22:20.480 --> 0:22:23.239 to rob the restaurant, drobed the guys who were at 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:25.760 the restaurant that night, and I ended up The guy 0:22:25.880 --> 0:22:28.919 who killed them was a guy who I grew up 0:22:28.960 --> 0:22:31.800 with and we went to school with and everything else. 0:22:31.840 --> 0:22:34.440 He didn't even know it was my cousin. So um 0:22:34.520 --> 0:22:37.359 and yeah, ended up killing him. Did that guy go 0:22:37.400 --> 0:22:39.760 to jail? Yeah, they went to jail. Okay, So in 0:22:39.840 --> 0:22:45.719 your pursuits you meet Puffy and how do you maximize 0:22:45.760 --> 0:22:49.560 that relationship? Well, Puff, um, it was. It was a 0:22:49.600 --> 0:22:52.560 concert that I was throwing with Notorious b I g 0:22:53.240 --> 0:22:55.959 Um and Wootang and a few other acts on Penn's 0:22:56.040 --> 0:22:59.600 campus and um, and I got a call that Notoria, 0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:04.159 Notorious b I g was Um, he wasn't gonna make 0:23:04.200 --> 0:23:05.879 it down in time for the show because he was 0:23:05.880 --> 0:23:09.240 shooting the video for Big Papa at that time. And 0:23:09.359 --> 0:23:12.159 I get into an argument with Mark Pitts on the 0:23:12.160 --> 0:23:15.119 phone that turns into an argument with Puffy on the 0:23:15.160 --> 0:23:19.040 phone and um, and but yet they still came down. 0:23:19.320 --> 0:23:22.000 The show was over. You know, we had the refund 0:23:22.000 --> 0:23:24.679 a few people, but he didn't make it and um, 0:23:25.359 --> 0:23:29.879 but they told Biggs manager make sure Troy gets his 0:23:29.960 --> 0:23:33.320 money back. Um, we'll give you another show. And we 0:23:33.320 --> 0:23:35.720 were hanging out that night. I was having an after 0:23:35.800 --> 0:23:39.000 party and Puff was holding court and you know, v 0:23:39.119 --> 0:23:42.080 I p section and you know, I'm talking and I said, 0:23:42.119 --> 0:23:43.720 you know what, you know, I want to come work 0:23:43.800 --> 0:23:46.280 for you, And he said, all right, well your first 0:23:46.320 --> 0:23:48.320 job is get me that girl from behind the bar. 0:23:51.280 --> 0:23:53.600 And um, and I got puffed the girl from behind 0:23:53.600 --> 0:23:55.919 the bar. And then a couple of weeks later, I 0:23:55.960 --> 0:23:59.600 was interning that bad boy. Then you moved to New York. No, 0:23:59.760 --> 0:24:02.840 I commute three days a week. I would commute on 0:24:03.000 --> 0:24:08.320 peter Pan trailways, um seven I think it was seven 0:24:08.320 --> 0:24:13.000 dollars each way peter Pan Trailways from Philly to uh 0:24:13.040 --> 0:24:17.120 to uh To to New York. And so you're interning, 0:24:17.440 --> 0:24:19.520 you're obviously, you know, doing your best to do a 0:24:19.520 --> 0:24:22.840 good job. What's your break a bad Boy? You know, 0:24:23.720 --> 0:24:26.520 I didn't get a break at Bad Boy, um, you know, 0:24:26.680 --> 0:24:30.399 but what I did get was an education you know 0:24:30.680 --> 0:24:33.159 Puff and even still to this day, you get a 0:24:33.240 --> 0:24:36.679 sort of master class and hustle and just seeing this 0:24:36.840 --> 0:24:42.760 guy operate that company just off of like I would 0:24:42.760 --> 0:24:47.720 see Puff at the club at night, and then I 0:24:47.720 --> 0:24:51.199 would see Puff in the office in the morning, and 0:24:51.240 --> 0:24:54.680 then at he had his recording studio called Daddy's House 0:24:54.720 --> 0:24:56.920 where he you know, would be where he would make records. 0:24:57.320 --> 0:24:59.920 So you know, it just it was this sort of 0:25:00.160 --> 0:25:05.720 NonStop thing, but this sort of masterful dance of being 0:25:05.760 --> 0:25:09.560 able to navigate sort of hip hop culture in the 0:25:09.640 --> 0:25:13.919 streets with corporate America and uh so that it just 0:25:14.000 --> 0:25:16.200 was that master class. So I didn't get a break 0:25:16.240 --> 0:25:20.280 in terms of uh, you know, I made it. It 0:25:20.359 --> 0:25:27.320 was you got cursed out. You got um worked to 0:25:27.520 --> 0:25:30.679 death and you just wanted more of it, like you know, 0:25:30.760 --> 0:25:33.880 I just I couldn't get enough of it? And what 0:25:33.960 --> 0:25:39.040 was your next journey after that? Um? Afterwards, I started, UM. 0:25:39.080 --> 0:25:42.080 I went back to work for James Lasseter in in 0:25:42.280 --> 0:25:45.280 l A. And UM, he and Will started a movie 0:25:45.280 --> 0:25:48.639 production company called Overbrook Entertainment and UM, so I was 0:25:48.800 --> 0:25:53.080 James's assistant and I did that and UM and James 0:25:53.240 --> 0:25:55.520 ended up firing me. I think after like a year 0:25:55.560 --> 0:25:58.560 and a half, he ended up firing me and UM 0:25:58.560 --> 0:26:01.199 sending me back to Philly. And then that's when that 0:26:01.280 --> 0:26:04.080 was my big break. When he fired you because you've 0:26:04.160 --> 0:26:06.080 done a good job. I didn't he do or he said, 0:26:06.200 --> 0:26:09.720 I'm colding you back, keeping you here. Um, I wish 0:26:09.880 --> 0:26:11.840 I wish he was holding me back, keeping me here. 0:26:12.359 --> 0:26:15.640 I was arrogant as you can you could get. UM. 0:26:15.680 --> 0:26:20.080 I thought I knew everything and James like it was 0:26:20.160 --> 0:26:23.639 no humility. And I remember, you know, I didn't have 0:26:23.680 --> 0:26:25.639 a I didn't have a car when I living in 0:26:25.800 --> 0:26:27.479 l A. And if you live in l A, you 0:26:27.480 --> 0:26:29.160 know how hard it is not to have a car. 0:26:29.880 --> 0:26:31.800 And UM, and at one point I was dating this 0:26:31.960 --> 0:26:35.520 girl and Um and I would take the car service 0:26:35.960 --> 0:26:38.439 to go visit this girl. But and at the end 0:26:38.480 --> 0:26:41.480 of the week, I would just pay the general manager 0:26:41.480 --> 0:26:44.040 of the company when I got my check, here's the 0:26:44.119 --> 0:26:46.360 car service, you know, here's the money for the car service. 0:26:46.720 --> 0:26:50.800 And for some reason she told James Troy's been using 0:26:50.840 --> 0:26:54.240 the car service. And he came in the office and 0:26:56.280 --> 0:26:58.840 aired me out and you know, in front of everybody, 0:26:59.400 --> 0:27:02.960 and told me, you know, he kicked me out of California. 0:27:03.080 --> 0:27:05.280 And he said, you know, he fired me on the spot, 0:27:05.720 --> 0:27:08.040 kicked me out of California. Me and him get into 0:27:08.080 --> 0:27:11.560 this huge shouting match in his office, and Will and 0:27:11.640 --> 0:27:16.119 Jada actually walked in like right after and Um and 0:27:16.280 --> 0:27:20.159 Will said, you know what, go back to Philly. You know, 0:27:20.280 --> 0:27:23.760 we'll give you a severance, but go back to Philly 0:27:23.880 --> 0:27:26.400 and you know, get get yourself together. And I went 0:27:26.440 --> 0:27:29.520 back to Philly with my tail between my legs. And 0:27:29.560 --> 0:27:32.520 what would would you start up in Philly? UM? I 0:27:33.000 --> 0:27:35.800 started up UM. It was. It was a company called 0:27:35.800 --> 0:27:39.600 Black Friday that guys from my neighborhood that I knew. 0:27:39.800 --> 0:27:46.119 They basically UM started this management company. It was like 0:27:46.160 --> 0:27:50.320 a management production company. And they asked if I would 0:27:50.400 --> 0:27:53.240 come and basically run the company for him. Can I could? 0:27:53.240 --> 0:27:55.639 I could? I build it and started up for him, 0:27:55.760 --> 0:28:00.400 and Eve was even Beanie Seagull where the client there. 0:28:01.080 --> 0:28:07.600 And it was a hot mess, and I ended up, 0:28:07.800 --> 0:28:09.919 you know, after a while, I'm like, I can't do 0:28:09.960 --> 0:28:15.040 this anymore. It was a lot of disorganization. One one client, 0:28:15.359 --> 0:28:17.960 UM came into the office. One day. I got a 0:28:18.080 --> 0:28:21.560 call that the client got into an argument with one 0:28:21.560 --> 0:28:24.760 of the guys who owned the company and start shooting 0:28:24.760 --> 0:28:27.480 at him in the office. And that was it for 0:28:27.600 --> 0:28:30.600 me and I and I ended up that and I 0:28:30.680 --> 0:28:33.679 left at that point, and Eve was leaving and she 0:28:33.760 --> 0:28:36.239 had enough, and she asked if I would help her 0:28:36.280 --> 0:28:38.960 find the manager. I took her to meet with Chris 0:28:39.040 --> 0:28:41.880 Lighty a few other managers, and then she asked if 0:28:41.880 --> 0:28:45.880 I would do it. Okay, so you do it and 0:28:46.560 --> 0:28:48.520 tell me how you ultimately get to there to making 0:28:48.520 --> 0:28:52.800 your deal with Sanctuary. So I started managing Eve UM. 0:28:53.800 --> 0:28:56.440 I ended up signing a few other clients. Me m 0:28:56.520 --> 0:28:59.920 up my partner at that time, Jay Irving. We built 0:29:00.160 --> 0:29:03.040 company called Irving Wonder in Philadelphia, which was like you know, 0:29:03.120 --> 0:29:07.280 boutique management company and UM and we got a call 0:29:07.360 --> 0:29:11.320 from Matthew Knowles one day and Matthew asked if we 0:29:11.360 --> 0:29:14.480 would I want to sell our company to Sanctuary. He 0:29:14.520 --> 0:29:17.280 had just sold this company to Sanctuary. They were looking 0:29:17.280 --> 0:29:23.959 to build their urban music division and U and he 0:29:24.000 --> 0:29:26.880 basically told me how much money? And I said, when 0:29:26.960 --> 0:29:30.719 where do I sign? Because I never, like, I had 0:29:30.760 --> 0:29:32.680 never seen that type of money in my life. So, 0:29:33.240 --> 0:29:35.360 you know, without asking, I'm like, let's go, let's get 0:29:35.400 --> 0:29:38.320 this done. And how did it end with Sanctuary? Terrible? 0:29:39.320 --> 0:29:41.200 But you kept on money, right, Yeah? But you know 0:29:41.280 --> 0:29:43.600 the thing is what I what I learned about Sanctuary, 0:29:43.640 --> 0:29:47.680 Like with the Sanctuary situation, I was so focused on 0:29:48.000 --> 0:29:51.440 the exit and the money that I was that it 0:29:51.600 --> 0:29:55.520 blinded me from all of the red flags that I 0:29:55.560 --> 0:29:59.080 should have noticed as they were doing their diligence on us. 0:29:59.400 --> 0:30:01.960 We should have been on our diligence on them, on 0:30:02.080 --> 0:30:06.640 them and um and it just wasn't that. We went 0:30:06.640 --> 0:30:10.040 from a really cool culture at our company, like actually 0:30:10.160 --> 0:30:13.320 Jay Irvan and and his wife, Um, that's who I'm 0:30:13.360 --> 0:30:15.640 up here in Santa Barbara with this weekend. You know, 0:30:15.720 --> 0:30:19.360 it was me and my best friend we built this company. 0:30:19.400 --> 0:30:22.400 We hung out every day. We hung out with our employees, 0:30:22.440 --> 0:30:24.640 we hung out with our artists, and then we sold 0:30:24.680 --> 0:30:28.920 this company the Sanctuary and the culture it just with. 0:30:29.080 --> 0:30:33.640 The culture was terrible and um, and the leadership wasn't great. 0:30:34.360 --> 0:30:38.480 Um and I'm just being honesty. They were terrible people. 0:30:39.080 --> 0:30:41.040 The you know, the guy running the company was a 0:30:41.120 --> 0:30:45.400 terrible person, and he ended up we you know, we 0:30:45.400 --> 0:30:49.920 were trying to buy our company back. And because you know, I, 0:30:50.200 --> 0:30:52.440 like I said, I grew up like I love the 0:30:52.520 --> 0:30:55.560 music business. I love what I do. Um, I grew 0:30:55.640 --> 0:30:57.960 up loving this business. I grew up loving the music. 0:30:58.440 --> 0:31:00.720 And then it felt like I didn't want to go 0:31:00.760 --> 0:31:02.520 to work in the morning. I didn't want to go 0:31:02.560 --> 0:31:05.560 into the office, and I wanted to buy the company back. 0:31:06.000 --> 0:31:09.320 And so I started this negotiation to buy the company back, 0:31:10.000 --> 0:31:14.239 and we couldn't reach a deal. And then somebody told me, 0:31:14.320 --> 0:31:18.920 who works in finance, They said, hold out for a 0:31:18.960 --> 0:31:21.760 little bit longer, because if you hold out, I don't 0:31:21.800 --> 0:31:24.320 even think they're gonna be able to make salary. They're 0:31:24.320 --> 0:31:27.680 not even gonna make your your your uh your paycheck. 0:31:28.480 --> 0:31:32.320 So I'm walking into a restaurant and I never forget 0:31:32.680 --> 0:31:36.680 it's on my birthday. I'm walking into a restaurant and 0:31:36.800 --> 0:31:39.720 my attorney at that time, David Landy, calls me up 0:31:39.760 --> 0:31:41.680 and he said, you know, are you by yourself? I 0:31:41.680 --> 0:31:44.120 said no, but I can walk out. I said, what's up? 0:31:44.440 --> 0:31:47.760 He said, Sanctuary. I just got a facts from Sanctuary 0:31:48.040 --> 0:31:52.680 and they're suing you and Jay for calls. I said, 0:31:52.680 --> 0:31:55.040 what's the cause? He said, they don't have a cause. 0:31:56.640 --> 0:31:58.840 And what we found out was the cause was they 0:31:58.840 --> 0:32:01.360 couldn't make our page checks and they didn't want to 0:32:01.400 --> 0:32:04.920 pay us out. And and you know, our business is 0:32:05.040 --> 0:32:09.040 very rare when anybody in our business gets suit for calls. 0:32:09.920 --> 0:32:16.320 And to have that on the front cover of a variety, 0:32:16.720 --> 0:32:21.080 you know, magazine or whatever, and to know that like 0:32:21.160 --> 0:32:24.080 it just was they just with terrible people, and we 0:32:24.200 --> 0:32:27.080 ended up being able to you know, they ended up 0:32:27.080 --> 0:32:29.800 having to pay us out, and you know, I you know, 0:32:29.840 --> 0:32:32.040 I ended up starting a new company. But it was 0:32:32.080 --> 0:32:38.280 a valuable lesson and culture and people and that the 0:32:38.320 --> 0:32:41.959 new company is atom Factory, right, Adom Factory until the audience, 0:32:41.960 --> 0:32:44.840 Why you named it atom factory? Um? The idea where 0:32:44.840 --> 0:32:47.959 Adam Factory was you know thinking about it was something 0:32:48.080 --> 0:32:51.840 I wanted to do, something small but yet powerful. And 0:32:51.880 --> 0:32:54.080 you know, and and and the name Adam just kind 0:32:54.080 --> 0:32:57.360 of some summarized it for me, like you know, um, 0:32:57.400 --> 0:33:01.280 you know, because I never wanted, you know, talent roster 0:33:01.440 --> 0:33:04.240 with a hundred people on the roster. But how can 0:33:04.320 --> 0:33:08.200 I build a small company but that still has some 0:33:08.280 --> 0:33:12.920 gravitizing importance? So how do you sign leading gaga? UM? 0:33:13.240 --> 0:33:15.920 Got guy I met got got through a guy named 0:33:16.000 --> 0:33:19.520 Vincent Herbert. And Vincent Um I had known since I 0:33:19.600 --> 0:33:21.840 was coming up in the business. And he caught me 0:33:21.920 --> 0:33:24.160 up one day and he said, I got this girl 0:33:24.320 --> 0:33:27.680 who you have to meet. Um, I'm flying her from 0:33:27.680 --> 0:33:31.760 New York tomorrow and I'm gonna bring aodbye. And you know, 0:33:31.840 --> 0:33:34.720 he showed up and she walked in with you know, 0:33:34.800 --> 0:33:38.440 these big sunglasses on and you know, no pants and 0:33:38.680 --> 0:33:45.880 fishnet stockings and played hit after hit. Um it was 0:33:46.800 --> 0:33:50.360 what what I loved. What I loved was it looked 0:33:50.360 --> 0:33:54.440 like she landed from another planet, but she owned it. 0:33:55.360 --> 0:33:59.240 And I told Vince, I said, you gotta bring her back, Like, 0:33:59.360 --> 0:34:01.880 just promise me you'll you'll bring her back. And a 0:34:01.920 --> 0:34:04.760 few months later he he actually he lived up to 0:34:04.800 --> 0:34:07.280 that promise and he bought her back. Now, when you 0:34:07.360 --> 0:34:10.400 signed or did anybody else want her? No, she had 0:34:10.480 --> 0:34:15.320 she had just gotten dropped from deaf Jam. Um, probably 0:34:15.320 --> 0:34:17.880 a few months prior toized meeting, she had gotten dropped 0:34:17.880 --> 0:34:21.040 from deaf Jam. And UM, you know she kind of 0:34:21.920 --> 0:34:24.400 I went to West Virginia for a while and like 0:34:24.800 --> 0:34:28.680 spent some time with a grandmother and um. And so 0:34:28.800 --> 0:34:30.600 she was like, you know, it was one of those 0:34:30.640 --> 0:34:33.799 things with where you had nothing to lose, like you 0:34:33.840 --> 0:34:37.399 know I had. I was going through a terrible time financially. 0:34:37.920 --> 0:34:40.680 You know, this was like two thousand and seven when 0:34:40.680 --> 0:34:43.719 we met, going like so right, you know, I had 0:34:43.760 --> 0:34:48.040 invested everything into this new company, even fired me right 0:34:48.080 --> 0:34:52.319 before that. And um, and you know my wife and I, 0:34:52.520 --> 0:34:54.719 you know, we were losing our house. You know, her 0:34:54.719 --> 0:34:57.520 and my mother in law literally pawned their wedding rings 0:34:58.200 --> 0:35:01.880 to save our house. They Um, you know, our kids 0:35:01.920 --> 0:35:04.320 were getting kicked, you know, like we couldn't pay school 0:35:04.320 --> 0:35:09.760 tuition or anything like that. So financially I was completely wiped. 0:35:10.360 --> 0:35:15.600 Um and when Gaga came, that was like the only 0:35:15.640 --> 0:35:20.239 thing I had to work on essentially, And she had 0:35:20.280 --> 0:35:22.880 just gotten dropped. And I think it was one of 0:35:22.920 --> 0:35:26.120 those things where is you have nothing to lose and 0:35:26.200 --> 0:35:30.320 like you gotta make it work. And we both really 0:35:30.400 --> 0:35:32.319 really had to make it work. And what did you 0:35:32.400 --> 0:35:34.480 tell her to get her to sign with you? You know, 0:35:34.560 --> 0:35:39.360 I took her to a fancy restaurant called Spaghetti Warehouse. 0:35:42.760 --> 0:35:49.759 We went to Spaghetti Warehouse, I swear to you, and 0:35:49.920 --> 0:35:53.360 um and uh, and we just talked. I think we 0:35:53.440 --> 0:35:56.600 spent like a couple of hours together. And then I 0:35:56.680 --> 0:36:01.680 remember I think it was I think it was. Wasn't 0:36:01.719 --> 0:36:05.600 it Layla's birthday? Baby? Yeah, and because I remember it 0:36:05.640 --> 0:36:09.719 was my daughter's birthday and um, and it's and I 0:36:09.760 --> 0:36:13.120 had to stop for cupcakes on the way home. So 0:36:13.160 --> 0:36:17.680 it's literally me and Gaga standing on um little Santa 0:36:17.719 --> 0:36:20.480 Monica at like Sprinkles cupcakes. Remember it used to be 0:36:20.520 --> 0:36:23.239 like a line outside the door, and like you know, 0:36:23.440 --> 0:36:28.279 she's you know, looking like Gaga on like in front 0:36:28.360 --> 0:36:33.400 at Sprinkles and we're but we hit it off right away, 0:36:33.760 --> 0:36:37.960 like we like it was we got each other right away. 0:36:38.200 --> 0:36:43.200 And um, I believed in in her vision and she 0:36:43.719 --> 0:36:47.640 trusted me with everything and we we you know, and 0:36:47.640 --> 0:36:52.160 and but a few things like this is what's interesting, 0:36:55.640 --> 0:36:59.320 Like like a lot of times, you know, you you 0:36:59.320 --> 0:37:02.440 you hear, you know, the sort of romantic stories about 0:37:02.480 --> 0:37:05.480 you know, how everything happened or whatever. But you know, 0:37:06.880 --> 0:37:11.480 Vincent Herbert had just walked away from his record label 0:37:12.200 --> 0:37:15.319 UM that he had with a guy, Barry Hankerson. So 0:37:15.400 --> 0:37:17.839 Vincent kind of left his record label behind. So this 0:37:17.920 --> 0:37:20.680 was his new thing and Goga was the only thing 0:37:20.719 --> 0:37:24.520 he had. Jimmy was in the middle of his divorce 0:37:24.600 --> 0:37:30.440 at that time, UM, and you know, Interscope was probably 0:37:30.520 --> 0:37:33.279 this was probably one of Interscope's tough as years, you know, 0:37:33.360 --> 0:37:38.680 during during that time period or whatever, and so Jimmy 0:37:38.760 --> 0:37:42.080 was kind of doing his thing and left us alone 0:37:42.120 --> 0:37:45.080 on the guy got projects, so basically kind of gave 0:37:45.160 --> 0:37:48.200 us carte blanche. So we were kind of running doing 0:37:48.239 --> 0:37:51.640 our own thing. So she was making these records and 0:37:51.680 --> 0:37:55.239 he was focused on Pussycat Dolls. So every record that 0:37:55.280 --> 0:37:58.960 she would make, Jimmy was taking the records, like you know, 0:37:59.120 --> 0:38:03.400 and she would give records to Pussycat Dolls or Rodney Jerkins. 0:38:03.520 --> 0:38:07.040 I remember one record that you know, uh, she had 0:38:07.040 --> 0:38:10.320 written with Rodney Jerkins and she wanted it for herself 0:38:10.680 --> 0:38:13.239 and Rodney's like, no, she's a new artist, I'm not 0:38:13.280 --> 0:38:15.439 giving her this record. I need to get this record 0:38:15.520 --> 0:38:18.600 to Britney Spears. Brittany is you know, she's a superstar. 0:38:18.640 --> 0:38:22.600 We're giving this record the Britney Spears and Goga was pissed. 0:38:23.280 --> 0:38:29.719 Um the record was called Telephone, so of course, you know, 0:38:29.800 --> 0:38:33.040 Gaga becomes gay gay and Brittney recorded the record as 0:38:33.040 --> 0:38:36.680 a demo and she's like, nope, get that record back. 0:38:36.840 --> 0:38:39.560 And she put Beyonce on that record, and that record became, 0:38:39.960 --> 0:38:42.279 you know, a number one hit. But she couldn't keep 0:38:42.280 --> 0:38:44.839 a record because everybody would take it because she wasn't 0:38:44.840 --> 0:38:47.880 a big star. But I started keeping making sure we 0:38:47.920 --> 0:38:51.879 could keep those records. So just Dance we kept, which 0:38:51.960 --> 0:38:55.200 became a number one record. Um, Love Game we kept, 0:38:55.200 --> 0:38:58.000 became a number one run record. Poker Face we kept 0:38:58.040 --> 0:39:01.160 that one became a number one record, and um so 0:39:01.239 --> 0:39:04.280 it just was really fighting and so did a block 0:39:04.360 --> 0:39:10.960 in and tackling. We'll take a quick break and come 0:39:11.000 --> 0:39:13.800 back with more of my conversation with Director of Creative 0:39:13.840 --> 0:39:18.080 Services and Spotify, Troy Carter, recorded live at the Music 0:39:18.160 --> 0:39:23.440 Media Summit in Santa Barbara, California. This week. I'm speaking 0:39:23.480 --> 0:39:27.680 with Troy Carter. Recently, I interviewed Brian Fogel, who created 0:39:27.680 --> 0:39:31.680 Oscar winning documentary Chous. Be the first to hear next 0:39:31.719 --> 0:39:35.319 week's episode by subscribing to the podcast I'm tuned in 0:39:35.560 --> 0:39:39.319 Apple Podcast or your podcast Apple Troice. While you're there, 0:39:39.840 --> 0:39:43.239 be sure to rate and review the podcast. Okay, let's 0:39:43.280 --> 0:39:47.239 get back to my conversation with Troy Carter. Now. The 0:39:47.320 --> 0:39:50.439 story is she was making dance music at a time 0:39:50.520 --> 0:39:53.480 dance music was not on the chart or on the radio, 0:39:53.880 --> 0:39:56.719 and the interscope went to the wall for you. Is 0:39:56.760 --> 0:39:59.600 that true? Yeah, it was. We were getting a lot 0:39:59.600 --> 0:40:02.520 of push back from Top forty radio because they thought 0:40:02.600 --> 0:40:05.200 that it was too electronic because it was sort of 0:40:05.200 --> 0:40:07.600 four on the floor and read one who was the 0:40:07.680 --> 0:40:11.160 music producer was just um, you know, he came out 0:40:11.160 --> 0:40:13.560 of Sweden, so it was you know, sort of Swedish 0:40:13.560 --> 0:40:17.759 sound at that time. And we didn't take no for 0:40:17.800 --> 0:40:21.520 an answer, but neither did Brenda Romano, who was working 0:40:21.560 --> 0:40:24.799 Top forty radio at that time, and so she just 0:40:24.880 --> 0:40:29.640 kept knocking on those doors. And but the Internet and 0:40:29.719 --> 0:40:32.200 being able to kind of build that story and come 0:40:32.239 --> 0:40:35.880 back to radio was really important. So we were building 0:40:35.960 --> 0:40:40.520 audiences um on YouTube and you know, and building this 0:40:40.640 --> 0:40:44.120 sort of international following on YouTube. We were doing the 0:40:44.160 --> 0:40:46.560 same thing on Twitter, We were doing the same thing, 0:40:46.880 --> 0:40:50.360 um on a couple other platforms. And then NAT started 0:40:50.400 --> 0:40:53.480 translating into call out at radio, so they would put 0:40:53.480 --> 0:40:55.960 the record on and kids already knew the record. You know, 0:40:56.000 --> 0:40:58.879 the radio was late at that time because kids were 0:40:58.880 --> 0:41:02.160 already familiar with the sort of what's happening with Spotify now. 0:41:02.239 --> 0:41:06.000 But saving that for a little bit later. Okay, Gaga 0:41:06.080 --> 0:41:12.120 blows up. It must be an amazing learning experience for you. Yeah, 0:41:12.160 --> 0:41:15.000 you know, it's It's what I realized was, you know, 0:41:15.120 --> 0:41:19.200 it's levels you know, and the business and its levels 0:41:19.200 --> 0:41:22.879 in life. You know, um, because with Eve, Eve had 0:41:22.920 --> 0:41:28.920 a wildly successful career for hip hop artists, you know, 0:41:29.040 --> 0:41:31.600 and and even you know, we did her TV show 0:41:31.600 --> 0:41:34.120 and it lasted for you know, a few years, but 0:41:34.239 --> 0:41:37.040 you know that was primarily you know, it was African 0:41:37.040 --> 0:41:42.280 American audiences that was consuming you know, the the TV show. 0:41:42.840 --> 0:41:45.520 So we weren't we didn't have that level of pop 0:41:45.600 --> 0:41:49.560 exposure at at at that time. So and I had 0:41:49.600 --> 0:41:53.239 glimpses of it through Sanctuary because Destiny's Child was you know, 0:41:53.360 --> 0:41:56.319 managed by Sanctuary and a few other pop acts. But 0:41:56.400 --> 0:42:00.480 I wasn't personally exposed to it. So with Gaga, only 0:42:00.560 --> 0:42:04.120 had experience as a hip hop manager, so I kind 0:42:04.120 --> 0:42:06.560 of managed her like a hip hop act. So we 0:42:06.560 --> 0:42:09.920 were doing three shows a night. Um, you know, the 0:42:10.000 --> 0:42:13.320 sound was terrible half the time. You know, you know rappers, 0:42:13.360 --> 0:42:15.320 you know they're holding the micro like this or whatever, 0:42:15.880 --> 0:42:18.880 and um, so we didn't know sound, and um, you know, 0:42:19.239 --> 0:42:22.920 Jimmy Iveen. She was opening for New Kids on the Block. 0:42:23.320 --> 0:42:25.680 And I remember Jimmy pulling me to the side after 0:42:25.920 --> 0:42:29.239 the first show at Staples Center and he said, the 0:42:29.360 --> 0:42:32.640 show was great, sound was terrible. This is what you 0:42:32.680 --> 0:42:34.960 need to do to fix the sound. You know, this 0:42:35.040 --> 0:42:37.120 is the guy you need to call to fix the sound. 0:42:37.520 --> 0:42:41.359 And he taught me, you know, sort of sonically with 0:42:41.400 --> 0:42:43.920 pop acts as supposed to sound like. And then I 0:42:44.000 --> 0:42:48.120 met Arthur Fogel and Michael Rapino and they taught me 0:42:48.239 --> 0:42:51.279 what pop acts as supposed to tour like. You know, 0:42:51.360 --> 0:42:53.680 So it was it was I was I felt like 0:42:53.760 --> 0:42:56.600 I was in school learning a lot of this stuff. 0:42:56.840 --> 0:43:01.799 So where I knew this sort of basic um fundamentals 0:43:01.840 --> 0:43:06.919 of protect your client with everything you have, and so 0:43:07.000 --> 0:43:11.359 my instincts were worked, you know, in terms of of 0:43:11.400 --> 0:43:16.200 protecting a client, but in terms of global touring and 0:43:16.320 --> 0:43:20.320 making and building a global superstar. I've gone to countries 0:43:20.400 --> 0:43:23.000 I had never gone to, and you know, it just 0:43:23.080 --> 0:43:26.319 was a whole new experience. And at any time in 0:43:26.360 --> 0:43:28.799 the height of her career did another manager try to 0:43:28.800 --> 0:43:31.640 steal your act all the time? You know, I remember 0:43:31.640 --> 0:43:35.080 I remember getting a call from um just this is 0:43:35.160 --> 0:43:38.440 as she was really this is as the first single 0:43:38.560 --> 0:43:43.120 was taken off, and her lawyer, Um, her first lawyer, 0:43:43.239 --> 0:43:50.879 called up and and said, um, uh, I'm not even 0:43:50.880 --> 0:43:55.200 gonna mention him. Uh. Big, big, big manager calls calls 0:43:55.320 --> 0:43:58.520 up and he wants to take a meeting uh with 0:43:58.520 --> 0:44:01.239 with with Uh. This is why I love her. By 0:44:01.239 --> 0:44:06.239 the way, big manager called up the lawyer tried to 0:44:06.280 --> 0:44:12.560 set the meeting up and and like around me and 0:44:12.640 --> 0:44:20.160 she called me. She called me and she said fire 0:44:20.239 --> 0:44:25.640 him the lawyer. Yeah, that's great. But eventually it does 0:44:25.800 --> 0:44:28.960 end with Stephanie. Now we've talked about that. But for 0:44:29.040 --> 0:44:32.279 people who don't know the story in retrospect, I know 0:44:32.360 --> 0:44:34.640 there was an issue she had to do boyfriend, etcetera. 0:44:34.880 --> 0:44:37.719 Did you see it coming? No, you know, I don't 0:44:37.760 --> 0:44:41.360 think you ever see that ce ce ce that type 0:44:41.360 --> 0:44:44.799 of thing coming and um and you know, and and 0:44:44.880 --> 0:44:47.520 of course you know I can't get into any of 0:44:47.560 --> 0:44:51.239 the specifics or anything like that, you know, Um, but 0:44:51.520 --> 0:44:54.319 and I and I don't want to sit here and 0:44:54.400 --> 0:44:57.759 bullsit you and and and you know, say any sort 0:44:57.760 --> 0:45:01.080 of fake story. But you know the reality is, you know, 0:45:01.200 --> 0:45:06.080 she and I had an incredible relationship, like and even 0:45:06.120 --> 0:45:08.520 to this day, I still I still love her despite 0:45:08.560 --> 0:45:11.640 anything that's happened with her. Uh No, we don't we 0:45:11.880 --> 0:45:14.920 know contact with her right now. And um, but you know, 0:45:15.040 --> 0:45:20.799 I think it's hard to go through that sort of 0:45:21.000 --> 0:45:24.560 period of time and and where you're pretty much living 0:45:24.600 --> 0:45:27.720 on a bus together. You know, you're traveling the world together, 0:45:28.400 --> 0:45:32.480 you know, um, just down to like you know, birth 0:45:32.520 --> 0:45:38.759 of kids and you know everything. So where and and 0:45:38.880 --> 0:45:40.920 it's not like I had a big roster, you know, 0:45:41.000 --> 0:45:43.839 for the first when I was managing Goga, I think 0:45:43.880 --> 0:45:46.080 for the at least for the first couple of years, 0:45:46.640 --> 0:45:48.680 she was really the only client that I was that 0:45:48.760 --> 0:45:51.000 I was focused on. So she and I were really tight, 0:45:51.520 --> 0:45:57.880 So I wouldn't so when when it when it comes, 0:45:58.400 --> 0:46:00.759 I don't think you ever prepared for word, you know, 0:46:00.840 --> 0:46:04.840 so and and it's emotional. You go through the sort 0:46:04.840 --> 0:46:09.120 of the emotions of hurt and anger, and and and 0:46:09.120 --> 0:46:12.680 and everything else or whatever. But the reality is, you know, 0:46:12.760 --> 0:46:15.440 I wouldn't I wouldn't give it back for the world 0:46:15.520 --> 0:46:19.360 because I think it was an incredible experience. She helped 0:46:19.360 --> 0:46:21.600 my career just as much as I helped her career. 0:46:21.920 --> 0:46:24.240 We both came up in and and and the business 0:46:24.280 --> 0:46:29.600 together and m and life happens, man like you know, 0:46:29.680 --> 0:46:33.440 life life happening. Now since you've managed her, stop manager, 0:46:33.719 --> 0:46:36.919 she has not had a hit. She's had very successful 0:46:37.080 --> 0:46:40.560 road business. First with Tony Bennet, she's brought If you 0:46:40.600 --> 0:46:43.759 were to manage her again, what do you think she 0:46:43.800 --> 0:46:48.040 should do to sustain and build her career. The The 0:46:48.120 --> 0:46:51.279 good thing is, you know we're talking about and I'm 0:46:51.320 --> 0:46:56.640 not just saying this, she's probably one of the most 0:46:57.320 --> 0:46:58.920 and when I say one of the most, I'm not 0:46:59.000 --> 0:47:03.080 even saying broadly. I'm talking, you know, top five most 0:47:03.239 --> 0:47:10.720 talented artists and in the business. And it's very hard, 0:47:12.480 --> 0:47:15.520 you know, probably you know, when you look at her 0:47:15.680 --> 0:47:20.640 live show, it's probably only a couple of artists you 0:47:20.680 --> 0:47:23.319 know that that is up on that level in terms 0:47:23.360 --> 0:47:29.960 of live live concert performances, playing like piano is you know, 0:47:30.040 --> 0:47:34.680 it's vocalists like you know, performance artists, top top top, top, 0:47:34.719 --> 0:47:40.680 top level find it's just getting the records. That's all 0:47:40.719 --> 0:47:43.160 it boils down to. It's like you know, if, if, 0:47:43.840 --> 0:47:47.480 who who are you collaborating with and and the reality 0:47:47.680 --> 0:47:57.360 is finding making making great records with superstars is hard 0:47:58.760 --> 0:48:05.400 and it's a villain because you have to have incredibly 0:48:05.640 --> 0:48:12.120 strong producers in the room who can push back. You 0:48:12.200 --> 0:48:16.959 have to have an incredibly strong person at the top 0:48:16.960 --> 0:48:20.600 of that record label because Jimmy, basically Jimmy was tough, 0:48:21.239 --> 0:48:24.520 Like you know, you bring records in. Jimmy's a record producer, 0:48:24.880 --> 0:48:27.720 so Jimmy's gonna tell you how that record sounds or whatever. 0:48:28.200 --> 0:48:30.919 Vincent was a record producer and a songwriter, so Vince 0:48:31.040 --> 0:48:33.320 is gonna tell you how to how that record sounds 0:48:33.400 --> 0:48:36.919 or whatever. And so it's a filter that it goes through. 0:48:37.040 --> 0:48:38.799 So it's not just the people in the room that 0:48:38.840 --> 0:48:41.680 are that are collaborating and you put the record out, 0:48:41.960 --> 0:48:44.200 you gotta beat you gotta beat that record up, and 0:48:44.200 --> 0:48:46.719 you gotta be tough on tough on that record. But 0:48:46.840 --> 0:48:49.759 I think she I'm not worried about her. To be 0:48:49.800 --> 0:48:53.520 honest with you, it's like, you know, artists like she 0:48:53.520 --> 0:48:55.960 She's just one of those artists. She's gonna be around 0:48:56.040 --> 0:49:01.280 for fifty years. Certainly. See was like that. So while 0:49:01.320 --> 0:49:04.160 she's at the peak of her success, you meet a 0:49:04.200 --> 0:49:09.279 guy who guides you into the investment tech world. Can 0:49:09.280 --> 0:49:13.000 you tell the simple multitude about that? Yeah, it was um. 0:49:13.080 --> 0:49:14.640 You know, we were doing we were doing a lot 0:49:14.680 --> 0:49:18.560 of experimenting, um with social media and I and I've 0:49:18.600 --> 0:49:23.680 always been curious around other businesses, you know, so that's 0:49:23.680 --> 0:49:26.280 been a thing where I just want to learn everything 0:49:26.360 --> 0:49:29.239 I can about what you do. Like so if I'm curious, 0:49:29.560 --> 0:49:34.160 I'm going down the rabbit hole. And um, and we started. 0:49:34.560 --> 0:49:38.320 I remember I got invited to do a day trip 0:49:38.920 --> 0:49:42.080 to Silicon Valley and I never gone to the valley before, 0:49:42.080 --> 0:49:45.480 and never gone to Palo Altoo before. And um, and 0:49:45.680 --> 0:49:48.440 I flew in in the morning and my first meeting 0:49:48.560 --> 0:49:51.959 was with I think it was David simmon off from Yahoo, 0:49:52.400 --> 0:49:55.000 a like at a coffee shop at like eight o'clock 0:49:55.040 --> 0:49:58.000 in the morning, and you know, and just he's telling 0:49:58.040 --> 0:50:01.080 me about the valley and you know, and just his 0:50:01.080 --> 0:50:05.120 history and everything and very very interesting. And then my 0:50:05.280 --> 0:50:09.880 second meeting was at Palentteer and UM and if you 0:50:10.040 --> 0:50:17.720 if if Palanteer is probably the most sophisticated technology company 0:50:17.719 --> 0:50:21.680 in Silicon Valley and it was founded by a guy 0:50:21.760 --> 0:50:27.239 named Joe Lonsdale who was Peter Tiels like you know protege, 0:50:27.320 --> 0:50:30.200 you know, as Peter was coming out of PayPal, and 0:50:30.440 --> 0:50:33.120 you know, I go into their offices and it's like 0:50:33.160 --> 0:50:37.800 the TV show twenty four And what Palentteer basically does 0:50:37.960 --> 0:50:44.480 is they track um, terroristic algorithms on the internet. So 0:50:44.760 --> 0:50:49.480 and so when after nine eleven, when the FBI was 0:50:49.560 --> 0:50:52.520 building air thing and c i A was building an 0:50:52.560 --> 0:50:55.479 air thing, the d A was building air thing, none 0:50:55.480 --> 0:50:59.080 of the technology talked to each other and you know, 0:50:59.200 --> 0:51:02.680 and really worked in a way, and Palatiner figured it out. 0:51:03.360 --> 0:51:06.879 So I'm seeing this with my own I'm like, am 0:51:06.880 --> 0:51:09.440 I even you know, it's like, you know, some serious stuff. 0:51:09.960 --> 0:51:12.080 And then we went to Facebook and all of these 0:51:12.120 --> 0:51:14.440 companies and then and that night they threw me a 0:51:14.480 --> 0:51:19.520 barbecue at Joe Linsdale's house and UM, and I'm talking 0:51:19.560 --> 0:51:22.359 to all of these guys and you know, people could 0:51:22.400 --> 0:51:24.800 barely look you in the face and you know, there's 0:51:24.840 --> 0:51:31.239 like as Berger's Convention. I told my wife, I'm like, 0:51:31.320 --> 0:51:33.880 I'm doing this wrong in l A right now, and 0:51:34.040 --> 0:51:37.200 like it's like everybody's driving I'm driving a Rolls Royce 0:51:37.320 --> 0:51:40.640 and these billionaires are driving prius Is and uh and 0:51:40.719 --> 0:51:43.479 this is revenge in the nerds and the nerds one 0:51:43.680 --> 0:51:49.080 big and um. And then they started inviting me into 0:51:49.200 --> 0:51:52.200 into deals and said, you know, you want to invest here, 0:51:52.239 --> 0:51:59.920 And I started investing here and then investing there. Look 0:52:00.000 --> 0:52:03.440 it into my conversation with director of Creative Services at Spotify, 0:52:03.840 --> 0:52:06.840 Troy Carter, recorded live at the Music Media Summit in 0:52:06.880 --> 0:52:12.160 Santa Barbara, California. I hope you're enjoying listening to this 0:52:12.200 --> 0:52:15.160 episode of the Bob Left Sets podcast. If you want 0:52:15.200 --> 0:52:17.479 to listen to sound bites from the interviews and see 0:52:17.520 --> 0:52:20.080 some of my guests, check it out. It at tuned 0:52:20.120 --> 0:52:23.440 in on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Now we're of my 0:52:23.520 --> 0:52:27.560 conversation with the director of Creative Services at Spotify, Troy Carter, 0:52:27.840 --> 0:52:30.719 on The Bob Left Sets Podcast. You were pretty much 0:52:30.719 --> 0:52:33.000 the first person, certainly in the music business who was 0:52:33.040 --> 0:52:38.000 investing you know what, because I went in and I 0:52:38.000 --> 0:52:42.800 would probably go to the valley at least twice a week. 0:52:43.520 --> 0:52:47.080 So I would be in l A three days a week, 0:52:47.520 --> 0:52:49.920 and I'd be in San Francisco and Palo Alto two 0:52:49.960 --> 0:52:53.520 days a week, and I would start parking myself and 0:52:53.680 --> 0:52:56.719 people's offices and setting up shop in their offices during 0:52:56.760 --> 0:53:00.279 the day. And um, and then when I remembered it 0:53:00.360 --> 0:53:02.880 was um. One of the guys I met was it 0:53:02.920 --> 0:53:08.160 was a guy named Shervin Pishevar and Shervin Um. He 0:53:08.200 --> 0:53:11.480 had just sold his business and he started um investing 0:53:11.520 --> 0:53:14.120 at a firm called Menlo. And he caught me up 0:53:14.160 --> 0:53:16.200 and he said, I want to do this thing like 0:53:16.280 --> 0:53:18.759 this sort of uh, we're gonna be like this, this 0:53:18.880 --> 0:53:21.320 sort of Jedi investment group, and I just want you 0:53:21.400 --> 0:53:24.719 to be one of the Jedies. And um, and he 0:53:24.840 --> 0:53:28.120 caught me up about I think Warby Parker was one 0:53:28.120 --> 0:53:30.560 of the Was it the first deal that Shervin Um 0:53:30.640 --> 0:53:35.160 asked me about? And then um the second deal was 0:53:35.160 --> 0:53:37.759 was uber. But then he said, well, you know I 0:53:37.800 --> 0:53:39.600 want to do. I want to start putting l A 0:53:39.760 --> 0:53:43.319 people into into the deals. Can you help introduce me 0:53:43.360 --> 0:53:46.080 to some people in in l A? And UM, so 0:53:46.120 --> 0:53:49.120 I started introducing them to to some people in l A. 0:53:49.280 --> 0:53:51.280 And we put some l A people into the Uber 0:53:51.320 --> 0:53:53.960 deal and then kind of started building this thing that 0:53:54.080 --> 0:53:58.440 sort of bridge between San Francisco and and in l A. 0:53:58.560 --> 0:54:02.520 Did you get compensated were establishing those relationships? Uh, just 0:54:02.560 --> 0:54:06.759 as an investor. So so just for my my my 0:54:06.880 --> 0:54:13.279 compensation was Shervan would put me into people would put 0:54:13.280 --> 0:54:16.600 me into more deals, and then the way. And this 0:54:16.680 --> 0:54:18.759 is the other thing I loved about the valley that 0:54:18.880 --> 0:54:22.560 was so different from the music business. The music business 0:54:22.719 --> 0:54:26.200 is zero sum. It's like some in order for you 0:54:26.239 --> 0:54:30.040 to win, somebody has to lose. And then when and 0:54:30.040 --> 0:54:34.680 then the structure of a record label, um, whenever there's 0:54:34.719 --> 0:54:37.640 sort of a windfall, only the people at the very 0:54:37.760 --> 0:54:41.840 very top of the pyramid get get wealthy and nobody 0:54:41.880 --> 0:54:46.480 else gets gets wealthy essentially, and um and in technology 0:54:46.600 --> 0:54:49.799 and an investment, the way it works is the opposite, 0:54:49.880 --> 0:54:54.120 because you you you want the healthiest syndicate around the 0:54:54.160 --> 0:54:57.600 deal so that the entrepreneur and the company has the 0:54:57.960 --> 0:55:04.480 best chance of success. So if I know that this 0:55:04.760 --> 0:55:07.239 person here and this person here and this person here 0:55:07.280 --> 0:55:10.000 could be very helpful, I want them, then I want 0:55:10.040 --> 0:55:13.000 them in the deal because I'm gonna do better. And 0:55:13.080 --> 0:55:15.480 so that's how that's how this sort of is a 0:55:15.560 --> 0:55:19.319 network effect. So like you know, Rocking, I would put 0:55:19.400 --> 0:55:23.680 rock Nation into deals, then they would put me into deals. Um, 0:55:23.719 --> 0:55:26.720 you know, Scooter and I start putting each other into deals. Gayo, 0:55:26.840 --> 0:55:29.680 Siri and I started putting each other into deals. Um, 0:55:30.000 --> 0:55:33.400 you know. I remember is funny enough one of our companies, 0:55:33.440 --> 0:55:36.440 one of the first companies I invested in UM. It 0:55:36.520 --> 0:55:38.759 was a company called zim Ride that came to my 0:55:38.920 --> 0:55:43.359 office and we invested and they would calm work out 0:55:43.360 --> 0:55:47.640 of our offices in l A and then UM after 0:55:47.800 --> 0:55:50.400 Uber launch, the founder caught me up and he's and 0:55:51.040 --> 0:55:53.400 he said, I want to see can you connect me 0:55:53.440 --> 0:55:56.680 with Live Nation because they have these festivals and we 0:55:56.719 --> 0:55:58.839 have this our car pooling business. I want to see 0:55:58.840 --> 0:56:01.759 if we can car pool people back and forth. So 0:56:01.800 --> 0:56:05.560 I called up microL Rapino. UM, Michael was great. He 0:56:05.640 --> 0:56:08.120 did the deal, and Michael put you know, put some 0:56:08.160 --> 0:56:11.319 money into the company. And fast forward, that company went 0:56:11.320 --> 0:56:14.120 from zim Ride to become in Lift. So you know, 0:56:14.160 --> 0:56:17.040 and this is eight years ago. So in terms of 0:56:17.080 --> 0:56:21.280 that that sort of value at that particular time, seven 0:56:21.360 --> 0:56:24.839 or eight years ago and when it becomes now that's 0:56:24.840 --> 0:56:27.719 how you That's so when you say the compensation, is 0:56:27.760 --> 0:56:30.440 that sort of flow that that that that happens. But 0:56:30.480 --> 0:56:33.440 I'm not asking anybody for money or anything in return. 0:56:33.800 --> 0:56:36.319 In your office, you have a whole wall of the 0:56:36.360 --> 0:56:39.200 companies you've invested in at this point in time. How 0:56:39.200 --> 0:56:41.600 many companies do you think you've invested in? Um is 0:56:41.800 --> 0:56:45.400 probably about a hundred and twenty. And of a hundred 0:56:45.400 --> 0:56:50.640 and twenty, how many went completely bust? Uh, completely bust? 0:56:50.800 --> 0:56:56.640 Probably thirty or forty? Probably third about thirty I would say, 0:56:56.640 --> 0:57:04.959 are completely bust? How many winners? Probably forty? I would 0:57:04.960 --> 0:57:07.759 put him in in and a third, a third and 0:57:07.760 --> 0:57:11.960 a third. You got you got winner, you got winners, 0:57:12.719 --> 0:57:18.040 neutral and and dogs. Okay, so you're doing this. You're 0:57:18.080 --> 0:57:20.680 done with Gaga and then he's like record label. I 0:57:20.760 --> 0:57:23.600 might just have a record label, right, and then you 0:57:23.680 --> 0:57:27.560 have Making Trainer. Okay. The interesting thing from the outside observer, 0:57:27.960 --> 0:57:31.960 when you're involved with Making Trainer, she's everywhere and successful, 0:57:32.080 --> 0:57:35.080 and since you've been gone, she has not achieved that 0:57:35.160 --> 0:57:38.480 level of success, showing that your ability. But at what 0:57:38.600 --> 0:57:41.360 point do you you were an investor in Spotify, At 0:57:41.400 --> 0:57:43.640 what point do you wake up and say I'm gonna 0:57:43.680 --> 0:57:47.640 cross the street from being a manager to working for Spotify. 0:57:47.760 --> 0:57:51.480 So I invested in Spotify, and I think it was 0:57:51.520 --> 0:57:55.200 like two thousand and eleven, two thousand eleven, and UM 0:57:55.280 --> 0:58:01.200 and Daniel and I we we ended up. We we 0:58:01.280 --> 0:58:04.919 didn't initially meet when I invested, and then I think 0:58:04.960 --> 0:58:07.760 it had to be about six or seven months later. 0:58:08.640 --> 0:58:11.560 UM as a group called called Charity Water out of 0:58:11.600 --> 0:58:14.800 New York, a guy named Scott Harrison. He put together 0:58:14.840 --> 0:58:18.960 a group of probably fifteen or twenty founders to go 0:58:19.120 --> 0:58:22.600 to spend a week and a half in Ethiopia and 0:58:22.720 --> 0:58:28.080 UM and basically you build UM wells and different villages 0:58:28.120 --> 0:58:32.440 through throughout Ethiopia. And Daniel was on that trip. And 0:58:34.400 --> 0:58:40.760 when you when you're in uh and and suv for 0:58:40.840 --> 0:58:44.920 four hours with somebody going through villages and you know 0:58:45.040 --> 0:58:49.360 you're you're seeing you know some you know, it's it's 0:58:49.440 --> 0:58:53.200 it's incredible. It is very emotional, you know, kind of 0:58:53.280 --> 0:58:57.440 visiting these different places like just in but like if 0:58:58.040 --> 0:59:02.680 not even in a sad way, it's like the people 0:59:02.720 --> 0:59:06.600 they are fantastic. But he and I didn't meet. Sitting 0:59:06.640 --> 0:59:10.240 across the desk from each other. And I think that 0:59:10.440 --> 0:59:12.760 connected us in a way where we got to know 0:59:12.840 --> 0:59:17.040 each other personally before we did any sort of business together. 0:59:17.800 --> 0:59:21.960 And so when Spotify was, you know, had come to America, 0:59:22.760 --> 0:59:25.080 I would, you know, he and I would talk strategy, 0:59:25.240 --> 0:59:28.880 whether it was people who were holding back albums from 0:59:28.960 --> 0:59:31.640 you know, from the from the service, you know, some 0:59:31.760 --> 0:59:35.960 communication strategy, you know, some introductions to managers and things 0:59:36.000 --> 0:59:38.480 like that. But every time he would come to l A, 0:59:38.640 --> 0:59:40.440 he and I would spend a bunch of time together. 0:59:40.640 --> 0:59:43.040 And he had just become one of my favorite, my 0:59:43.080 --> 0:59:46.160 favorite people. And then you know, a couple of years ago, 0:59:46.680 --> 0:59:50.520 you know, I was, I was so burned out from 0:59:50.560 --> 0:59:53.360 being a manager. And I've done it. I've done it 0:59:53.360 --> 0:59:56.760 for seventeen years and um and like you said, you know, 0:59:57.120 --> 1:00:00.120 Megan Trainer, Charlie Pooth and a few other clients you 1:00:00.120 --> 1:00:03.240 know where like my my the last clients on the roster. 1:00:04.120 --> 1:00:07.320 And I saw, you know, I get I get signs 1:00:07.320 --> 1:00:10.240 in my life. It's almost like gott to pull the 1:00:10.320 --> 1:00:13.120 rug up from under me sometimes, like you know, but 1:00:13.200 --> 1:00:14.760 you know, if if I don't want to make the 1:00:14.840 --> 1:00:19.280 decision myself, and I saw I started to see some 1:00:19.360 --> 1:00:23.360 of the cracks and Adam Factory's business. UM I started 1:00:23.400 --> 1:00:26.600 to look at the future of like the management business 1:00:26.680 --> 1:00:29.760 for myself. And I I wasn't getting up in the 1:00:29.760 --> 1:00:37.320 morning excited. Um and you know, to to the amount 1:00:37.360 --> 1:00:42.680 of I don't I don't phone it in, Like I 1:00:42.720 --> 1:00:44.720 just don't have the thing where I can phone it in. 1:00:44.960 --> 1:00:49.080 And if I'm working for a client, I'm putting my 1:00:49.320 --> 1:00:53.280 soul into it. And when you put your soul into something, 1:00:53.520 --> 1:00:56.400 and you know, you get punched in the gut and 1:00:56.440 --> 1:00:59.680 it's like, you know, you're not appreciated, and you know, 1:00:59.760 --> 1:01:03.440 it's like you know sometimes you know some clients, you 1:01:03.440 --> 1:01:05.920 know you you you got to drag them across the 1:01:05.960 --> 1:01:09.400 finish line and you gotta explain to him why should 1:01:09.520 --> 1:01:12.720 you shouldn't cancel a show, or you should you should 1:01:12.720 --> 1:01:15.200 show up one time, or you should do that. I 1:01:15.240 --> 1:01:18.440 just was ready to do something different. And Daniel and 1:01:18.480 --> 1:01:21.880 I started having these conversations. And I remember I was 1:01:21.920 --> 1:01:24.360 sitting at the Soho house. He and I were working 1:01:24.360 --> 1:01:27.880 on a project together. Um I was. I was testing 1:01:27.960 --> 1:01:31.160 something out for him on on the Spotify platform, and 1:01:31.200 --> 1:01:35.920 we were at the Soho house and we started talking 1:01:35.960 --> 1:01:39.680 about what this sort of creator services thing would look 1:01:39.800 --> 1:01:42.800 would look like, you know, sort of from the outside end. 1:01:43.600 --> 1:01:47.040 And um, and we started having one of those what 1:01:47.200 --> 1:01:53.400 ifs conversations and I remember, you know, I talked to 1:01:53.440 --> 1:01:55.880 my wife about it. I got cold feet. Like I 1:01:55.920 --> 1:01:58.120 had agreed to it, then I got cold feet and 1:01:58.160 --> 1:01:59.640 I told him, you know, I don't think I'm gonna 1:01:59.720 --> 1:02:01.920 do it. And you know, we went back and forth 1:02:02.400 --> 1:02:07.360 and no exaggeration. Within a six week period, I had 1:02:07.520 --> 1:02:13.240 wound you know, I wound down Atom Factory and was 1:02:13.280 --> 1:02:16.400 in Spotify about six six I've lived with you through 1:02:16.440 --> 1:02:19.760 a lot of challenges is Spotify, but now streaming is one. 1:02:19.960 --> 1:02:23.680 Revenues are up. What you are the major challenges you're 1:02:23.680 --> 1:02:28.320 facing now? Um. You know, I think so you know 1:02:28.480 --> 1:02:31.360 this the streaming business. I think we're still in its 1:02:31.400 --> 1:02:34.200 infancy right now. So you know, I think you have 1:02:34.960 --> 1:02:38.520 some markets that are mature, like Sweden's very like a 1:02:38.600 --> 1:02:43.040 very mature market. Um. America to me is still a 1:02:43.440 --> 1:02:47.560 young streaming market. UM. You look at places like India 1:02:47.680 --> 1:02:50.640 that's still you know, young, and what's gonna happen in 1:02:50.800 --> 1:02:53.680 and so to Africa. UM, and you know some of 1:02:53.680 --> 1:02:58.240 the other markets as well. I think it's I think 1:02:58.440 --> 1:03:01.080 in terms, I think what we this is more of 1:03:01.080 --> 1:03:10.080 an industry thing. It's sort of defining as companies what 1:03:10.160 --> 1:03:13.920 our relationship is with the rest of the with with 1:03:14.000 --> 1:03:16.600 the rest of the industry, because I, you know, I 1:03:16.720 --> 1:03:22.200 definitely foresee you know what, what what all of our 1:03:22.280 --> 1:03:26.480 roles are right now are gonna look much much different 1:03:26.760 --> 1:03:30.320 over the next ten years, meaning what it is to 1:03:30.360 --> 1:03:32.920 be a record label, what it is to be a 1:03:32.960 --> 1:03:36.600 talent manager, what it means to be a promoter, you know, 1:03:36.720 --> 1:03:39.440 and what it means to be an artist by the way, 1:03:39.480 --> 1:03:41.920 so all of this is gonna look different. So I 1:03:42.040 --> 1:03:48.720 think just the thing is being able to um get 1:03:48.880 --> 1:03:50.920 who gets to the future, Who gets to the future 1:03:51.120 --> 1:03:56.640 the fastest? Okay, um I got a number of questions. 1:03:56.720 --> 1:03:59.040 Let me think of the one. Let's go to the 1:03:59.080 --> 1:04:02.880 one that everybody is concerned about. Playlists. What are we 1:04:02.960 --> 1:04:06.280 here on the street. We hear the individual playlist or 1:04:06.440 --> 1:04:10.000 is being squeezed out by the major labels. We hear that, 1:04:10.120 --> 1:04:11.480 what do you mean by that when you say that 1:04:11.920 --> 1:04:14.560 they were saying that, you know that it's the major 1:04:14.640 --> 1:04:18.680 label playlists who are major labels playlists and the Spotify 1:04:18.720 --> 1:04:22.640 playlists are getting most of the streams, and that the 1:04:22.640 --> 1:04:27.320 the major labels have power on Spotify akin to their 1:04:27.400 --> 1:04:31.600 power at radio with their promotion teams. I don't, I don't. 1:04:31.680 --> 1:04:34.000 I don't agree at all, because you know, I think 1:04:34.400 --> 1:04:36.120 I'm not saying that this is my point. That is 1:04:36.120 --> 1:04:38.800 what people say, yeah, yeah, and which I which I don't, 1:04:38.920 --> 1:04:41.200 I don't agree, And um, you know, and I talked 1:04:41.240 --> 1:04:44.400 to the indie labels all the time, and you know, 1:04:44.440 --> 1:04:47.920 it's it's funny because you know, the indies like people 1:04:47.960 --> 1:04:51.600 that have this sort of big narrative out there. And 1:04:51.640 --> 1:04:54.840 then you know, and then I asked him a simple question, 1:04:55.200 --> 1:04:57.760 are the indie labels doing better, you know now that 1:04:57.880 --> 1:05:00.320 that Spotify is here? And then they were but four 1:05:00.680 --> 1:05:04.560 and and uh unanimously the answers, yes, you know, because 1:05:04.560 --> 1:05:08.000 the Indians are doing are doing much better now, Um, 1:05:08.080 --> 1:05:11.040 I think. And as as far as playlists are concerned, 1:05:12.720 --> 1:05:18.440 so just we we have forty playlists owned and operated 1:05:18.440 --> 1:05:24.680 by Spotify, all different types of niche like niche playlists 1:05:24.680 --> 1:05:28.240 as well, So we do have the sort of flagships 1:05:28.280 --> 1:05:32.680 to you know, today's top pits, Hot Country, Viva Latino, Rap, 1:05:32.760 --> 1:05:36.560 Caviare R and B like all of those flagships, But 1:05:36.600 --> 1:05:39.160 then you've got a ton of other sort of mid 1:05:39.240 --> 1:05:45.800 tier and feeder playlists that kind of feed up into them. 1:05:45.920 --> 1:05:49.040 For most of the artists that that that we're talking about, 1:05:49.800 --> 1:05:52.920 we're talking about artists who will who would never get 1:05:52.960 --> 1:05:55.640 on radio. By the way, like we know how top 1:05:55.680 --> 1:05:58.920 forty works, You better have a huge budget if you 1:05:58.920 --> 1:06:00.600 want to get if you want to a can record 1:06:00.640 --> 1:06:03.760 all formats, be prepared to have a half a half 1:06:03.760 --> 1:06:06.440 a million dollars to to go all formats to get 1:06:06.440 --> 1:06:10.240 a top ten record at radio UM and so, and 1:06:10.320 --> 1:06:12.360 you need you need a real system to be to 1:06:12.520 --> 1:06:14.840 be able to be able to to to to do that, 1:06:15.520 --> 1:06:17.240 and then you have to have a certain type of 1:06:17.280 --> 1:06:20.040 record with a certain type of sound. And so if 1:06:20.040 --> 1:06:26.560 you're looking at top forties specifically, you figure it's let's 1:06:26.600 --> 1:06:30.280 call it twenty five slots, and then let's call it 1:06:30.440 --> 1:06:34.000 twenty artists that are gonna fulfill those those twenty those 1:06:34.000 --> 1:06:36.600 twenty slots. And you know, because of the artists who 1:06:36.600 --> 1:06:39.840 are gonna have multiple songs and those slots, so you 1:06:39.960 --> 1:06:45.200 got uh uh one tenth of a percent, and then 1:06:45.240 --> 1:06:47.680 you got the one percent, and you know then then 1:06:47.720 --> 1:06:50.200 then it kind of breaks down from there. So I 1:06:50.240 --> 1:06:54.440 think the sort of ecosystem of our playlist gives a 1:06:54.520 --> 1:06:58.680 fair shot to the entire industry at that at that point. 1:06:58.920 --> 1:07:01.520 And what what The one thing I like, what I 1:07:01.560 --> 1:07:06.760 love about you know, Spotify is that people can't figure 1:07:06.800 --> 1:07:11.400 it out. You can't. It's no, it's no hype. So 1:07:11.440 --> 1:07:14.360 it's not you can't come in there and and and 1:07:14.400 --> 1:07:17.720 sort of hype your record to get us to put 1:07:17.720 --> 1:07:21.520 it on on on on a playlist. The data doesn't lie, 1:07:22.120 --> 1:07:24.400 So it's like, you know, okay, but if you talk 1:07:24.480 --> 1:07:26.080 to like Daniel Glass, he comes to l A, you'll 1:07:26.080 --> 1:07:28.360 hang out at Apple Music, it'll go to Spotify. To 1:07:28.480 --> 1:07:33.120 what degree is the personal relationship important? Per Personal relationships 1:07:33.160 --> 1:07:35.680 are always going to be important, right, but they're only 1:07:35.720 --> 1:07:40.120 gonna be important to a certain extent because as much 1:07:40.160 --> 1:07:43.640 as I love Daniel, and if Daniel doesn't walk in 1:07:43.680 --> 1:07:46.280 the door with a great record, Daniel's record is gonna 1:07:46.280 --> 1:07:50.320 be treated like everybody else's record essentially lucky enough, you know, 1:07:50.520 --> 1:07:53.480 Daniel walks in with Jade Bird and she becomes one 1:07:53.520 --> 1:07:56.640 of my favorite artists and we're carrying a jay Bird 1:07:56.640 --> 1:07:59.600 flag throughout throughout the building or whatever. But would that 1:07:59.640 --> 1:08:04.320 being said, a lot of the stuff that major labels 1:08:04.320 --> 1:08:08.600 are signing right now aren't coming through any label. They're 1:08:08.600 --> 1:08:13.560 coming through Spotify. So it's we were it's between our editors, 1:08:14.160 --> 1:08:18.760 um sort of looking at blogs, living on SoundCloud, you know, 1:08:18.920 --> 1:08:21.240 sort of digging in the crates, kind of finding new 1:08:21.280 --> 1:08:24.439 stuff because they want to discover things. I get calls 1:08:24.439 --> 1:08:28.640 from our editors basically saying, um, hey, hey, Troy, I 1:08:28.680 --> 1:08:31.960 found this record. Um, we gotta they gotta figure out 1:08:32.000 --> 1:08:34.799 to aggregator to put it through because there's no record label, 1:08:35.120 --> 1:08:38.160 and then this act will end up with fifty million 1:08:38.280 --> 1:08:40.559 streams and they'll end up with a record deal and 1:08:40.600 --> 1:08:42.760 then the labels that you know are are signing them. 1:08:43.120 --> 1:08:46.719 So that's not a lot of the rap caviare stuff 1:08:46.840 --> 1:08:49.720 is with stuff that our editors found. Even on the 1:08:49.760 --> 1:08:54.600 pop side, Mike Mike Baggage finds things and then he 1:08:54.680 --> 1:08:57.200 puts it into the pop playlist and then they end 1:08:57.280 --> 1:09:01.720 up getting signed. So if we what do you see 1:09:01.760 --> 1:09:04.599 the future? Because we can go on Spotify right now, 1:09:04.680 --> 1:09:07.439 we can see the Spotify Top fifty changes every day. 1:09:07.479 --> 1:09:09.880 We can see the number of streams and except for 1:09:09.960 --> 1:09:14.040 the Superstar of Superstars with one single radio is way behind. 1:09:14.600 --> 1:09:17.639 They won't add multiple tracks, they're off the months behind. 1:09:17.880 --> 1:09:20.600 What do you foresee the future there? You know, I 1:09:20.640 --> 1:09:23.599 think I think radio's in trouble, you know readio radio 1:09:23.680 --> 1:09:25.880 as we know, it's in trouble, and I think it's 1:09:25.920 --> 1:09:30.960 inevitable because the only way from radio that you make 1:09:31.000 --> 1:09:37.000 your business better is to build the uh an experience. 1:09:37.120 --> 1:09:40.800 That's worse for the consumer, meaning you know, you gotta 1:09:41.280 --> 1:09:45.240 put more ads into and into into the product. So 1:09:45.400 --> 1:09:47.120 you know, I even know when if I go and 1:09:47.160 --> 1:09:50.320 out and I turn on radio, is a high probability 1:09:50.360 --> 1:09:52.360 that is going to be commercials on so soon as 1:09:52.360 --> 1:09:54.719 soon as I turn it on. So that's one sort 1:09:54.720 --> 1:09:57.200 of friction point, you know, out of the gate. Then 1:09:57.240 --> 1:10:01.640 the second friction point is radio relies so much on 1:10:01.800 --> 1:10:04.200 research because they want to do they need to de 1:10:04.320 --> 1:10:07.200 risk it or whatever. So you know, it's not like 1:10:07.439 --> 1:10:12.960 when uh DJs and programmers could make independent decisions before 1:10:13.400 --> 1:10:15.360 and they felt something and they could put it in, 1:10:15.439 --> 1:10:17.840 they could put it in right away. A lot of 1:10:17.840 --> 1:10:20.880 the radio stations are looking at Spotify data and kind 1:10:20.880 --> 1:10:23.720 of using that to decide which which records they're they're 1:10:23.720 --> 1:10:27.759 gonna put in. So by the time they hear that 1:10:27.760 --> 1:10:30.800 that record is old on Spotify. So you know, So 1:10:30.920 --> 1:10:34.160 for my kids who get in the car and they're 1:10:34.200 --> 1:10:36.680 you know, going on Spotify and YouTube to kind of 1:10:36.680 --> 1:10:39.679 consume their music, if they turn on Top forty radio, 1:10:39.800 --> 1:10:42.400 whatever they're hearing is already months old by that time. 1:10:42.800 --> 1:10:45.599 So I think you lose a consumer at that point, 1:10:45.960 --> 1:10:49.839 or it starts feeling like, um, almost like an adult 1:10:49.880 --> 1:10:52.799 Top forty because you know, you're you're planning old music. 1:10:53.160 --> 1:10:55.240 So I think that's a big I think this is 1:10:55.240 --> 1:10:59.920 a gap. And for us, we can't you know, and 1:11:00.080 --> 1:11:02.120 think this is a big you know sort of gap 1:11:02.160 --> 1:11:05.400 and friction point where you know, Spotify and and and 1:11:06.080 --> 1:11:10.559 frontline record labels, we can't keep your record in while 1:11:10.600 --> 1:11:13.720 you're going for your radio plan because our consumer has 1:11:13.760 --> 1:11:17.840 already moved on to your second or third single by 1:11:17.880 --> 1:11:20.519 the time you know you're getting added at at radio. 1:11:20.760 --> 1:11:23.240 So you know. So I think that's the part that 1:11:24.080 --> 1:11:27.240 from an industry perspective, I think on the label side, 1:11:27.439 --> 1:11:30.120 they have to figure out what's what's gonna be, what's 1:11:30.160 --> 1:11:34.360 important to you, you know, being current with the consumers 1:11:34.400 --> 1:11:36.720 and being able to have you know, songs within the 1:11:36.880 --> 1:11:41.120 within these playlists or you know, getting added at top forty. 1:11:41.280 --> 1:11:43.360 So we'll see how to and if we go on 1:11:43.400 --> 1:11:47.120 the US Top fifty, it is very much urban slash 1:11:47.160 --> 1:11:51.559 hip hop. So the question that's obviously illustrating demand, but 1:11:51.680 --> 1:11:57.639 to what degree does Spotify have a responsibility to give 1:11:57.680 --> 1:12:00.479 attention to other formats? Let me just say for myself, 1:12:00.560 --> 1:12:02.439 let me give an experience. I want to know what's 1:12:02.439 --> 1:12:04.559 going on, So I'll go to the Spotify Top fifty. 1:12:04.560 --> 1:12:08.360 I'll listen. Then if I think of all the other genres, country, electronic, 1:12:08.479 --> 1:12:10.320 it's a lot of work and there are a lot 1:12:10.320 --> 1:12:13.120 of acts today forget that you people don't teem to 1:12:13.200 --> 1:12:15.800 understand that you get paid based on whether people stream 1:12:15.840 --> 1:12:19.520 you or not. But is is are we purely speaking 1:12:19.760 --> 1:12:23.080 to the public's demand or is there any way or 1:12:23.160 --> 1:12:28.080 is there responsibility for Spotify to boost other formats? So so, 1:12:28.200 --> 1:12:31.639 and as a really really really good question, so where 1:12:32.520 --> 1:12:34.920 um so, But so we'll separate it for a second. 1:12:35.000 --> 1:12:38.559 So when you look at the top fifty, that's just demand, right, 1:12:38.640 --> 1:12:43.880 So that is that is the pulse of what people 1:12:43.960 --> 1:12:47.200 on our platform are are actually listening to. Because the 1:12:47.200 --> 1:12:51.320 difference with radio is push, the difference with Spotify is 1:12:51.400 --> 1:12:55.280 poll So that is consumers actually listening to that to 1:12:55.400 --> 1:12:57.960 that music because they can easily skip through it, right, 1:12:58.280 --> 1:13:01.120 So this is what this is. He so urban hip 1:13:01.120 --> 1:13:05.040 hop is really top forty right now in terms is 1:13:05.080 --> 1:13:09.240 pop music in terms of popularity UM if you look 1:13:09.280 --> 1:13:12.560 at you know, we talked last week we announced UM 1:13:12.720 --> 1:13:16.400 the new the new free app on on Spotify, and 1:13:16.479 --> 1:13:20.120 a lot of what we talked about was personalization because 1:13:20.200 --> 1:13:24.160 when the beauty of the beauty of of of data 1:13:24.360 --> 1:13:27.000 is being able to give everybody in this room or 1:13:27.120 --> 1:13:31.800 personalized experience. So and and that's that that was a 1:13:31.960 --> 1:13:34.759 that's a big friction point because if you're a country 1:13:34.840 --> 1:13:38.080 music fan and you show up and the first thing 1:13:38.160 --> 1:13:40.559 you see is is me goes, you know, and in 1:13:40.600 --> 1:13:43.519 the platform, you might churn out at that point, or 1:13:43.600 --> 1:13:46.920 if you can't, or if you feel sort of it's 1:13:46.960 --> 1:13:50.080 almost like you're walking into a room and not feeling welcome, 1:13:50.320 --> 1:13:53.080 you know, So how do you make people feel welcome 1:13:53.120 --> 1:13:55.200 when they walk into that room. So a lot of 1:13:55.200 --> 1:13:57.360 the stuff that we're working on right now is built 1:13:57.400 --> 1:14:01.280 around personalization. So I think what what what people see 1:14:01.400 --> 1:14:04.400 in the in the new free app from the onboarding 1:14:04.400 --> 1:14:06.720 we're gonna, we're gonna, you know, allow you to tell 1:14:06.800 --> 1:14:10.640 us about yourself and and so when you come to Spotify, 1:14:10.760 --> 1:14:14.639 how do we give you a personalized experience? And then um, 1:14:14.680 --> 1:14:18.960 but you know, it's almost like the personalized experience would 1:14:19.000 --> 1:14:22.120 be to a the A story and the B story 1:14:22.280 --> 1:14:24.599 is more to shared experience, you know. And I think 1:14:24.720 --> 1:14:27.519 right now it's a little bit of the opposite where 1:14:27.920 --> 1:14:30.120 it was in the past. It was the opposite where 1:14:30.120 --> 1:14:33.840 it was the shared story was for was out in front, 1:14:34.280 --> 1:14:38.320 and then the personalization was more in to discover weekly 1:14:38.400 --> 1:14:45.680 product and and things like that. We'll plause here for 1:14:45.720 --> 1:14:48.559 a brief moment and get right back to the Director 1:14:48.560 --> 1:14:54.559 of Creative Services and Spotify, Troy Carter. As you probably know, 1:14:55.240 --> 1:14:57.120 I'm mainly a writer and you can read my work 1:14:57.120 --> 1:14:59.920 at left sets dot com. If you sign up for 1:15:00.040 --> 1:15:02.679 the newsletter, not only will you get my commentary on music, 1:15:02.760 --> 1:15:06.200 tech and my life in general, you'll be the first 1:15:06.240 --> 1:15:09.240 to find out when we publish a new conversation. Go 1:15:09.320 --> 1:15:13.080 to left steps dot com and sign up now more 1:15:13.080 --> 1:15:16.000 were the director of Creative Services, that's Spotify, Troy Carter, 1:15:16.520 --> 1:15:21.240 recorded live at the Music Media Summit in Santa Barbara, California. Okay, 1:15:21.600 --> 1:15:24.280 we're gonna open up the questions now. Two things, One 1:15:24.320 --> 1:15:29.200 wait for a mic, and to please ask a question 1:15:29.200 --> 1:15:31.400 as opposed to giving your opinion. We're certainly interested in 1:15:31.400 --> 1:15:34.200 your opinion, but everybody may not. It's certainly for dinner 1:15:34.479 --> 1:15:38.000 or other times. So I have Troy here, please make 1:15:38.040 --> 1:15:44.599 it a question. Since you're talking about personalization, so you're 1:15:44.640 --> 1:15:50.520 saying that you're getting receiving enough qualitative data to give somebody, 1:15:50.640 --> 1:15:54.680 uh human behavior personalization. That's that's how much data you 1:15:54.720 --> 1:15:59.439 guys are receiving too, to personalize your face for that person, 1:16:00.040 --> 1:16:04.800 exactly exactly. So just understanding how people listening to, how 1:16:04.920 --> 1:16:09.080 how people listen to music and um, what types of 1:16:09.120 --> 1:16:13.599 people are listening to what types of music allows us 1:16:13.640 --> 1:16:19.200 to give a better listening experience. So in terms and 1:16:19.240 --> 1:16:25.160 in that you know, it's funny because when when you 1:16:25.240 --> 1:16:28.040 talk about data now because of the Facebook thing, you know, 1:16:28.320 --> 1:16:32.439 it kind of freaks people out right. Um, but data 1:16:32.680 --> 1:16:36.120 used in the right way can give you an incredible experience. 1:16:36.240 --> 1:16:43.160 So if you look at ten years of understanding the 1:16:43.240 --> 1:16:48.479 way tens and tens of millions, over a hundred million 1:16:48.520 --> 1:16:52.240 people listening listen to music. You really understand how to 1:16:52.320 --> 1:16:55.200 personalize and experience and that's how that's why I discover 1:16:55.320 --> 1:16:59.519 Weekly worked really well, Release Radar worked really well, and 1:16:59.560 --> 1:17:04.120 then um daily Mix worked really well. And now UM, 1:17:04.160 --> 1:17:06.720 I think we're we're we're we're able to dial it 1:17:06.760 --> 1:17:13.280 in even even better. Next question, Jim, we have to Mike, 1:17:13.439 --> 1:17:17.720 So if someone else get a Mike Jake. UM, I 1:17:17.720 --> 1:17:20.120 have a question, if you guys have ever looked at 1:17:20.400 --> 1:17:25.160 the genre of music against the free service versus the 1:17:25.160 --> 1:17:28.960 paid service? Can you? I think what he means is 1:17:29.160 --> 1:17:32.519 do people listen who are paying listen to different stuff 1:17:32.560 --> 1:17:36.400 from the people who are not paying? Yeah, and and 1:17:36.400 --> 1:17:39.200 and do you have data on that? So the answer 1:17:39.240 --> 1:17:42.080 would be, I'm a pent sure we have data data 1:17:42.120 --> 1:17:47.760 on that. Um. I wouldn't be able to break down specifically. 1:17:49.240 --> 1:17:51.760 I could say it broadly, you know, in terms of 1:17:51.840 --> 1:17:55.559 like sort of premium premium versus free, but um not 1:17:55.680 --> 1:18:00.479 really specifically right right now, okay, general and right here, 1:18:00.560 --> 1:18:02.920 Hey Trow, I'm here from Sweden. There's a lot of 1:18:02.960 --> 1:18:06.639 debate um back where I'm from about the sort of 1:18:06.760 --> 1:18:09.639 payment models from Spotify little bit a little bit louder 1:18:09.640 --> 1:18:13.280 places the payment models from Spotify to the labels, and 1:18:13.439 --> 1:18:15.960 from the labels to the artists and the sort of 1:18:16.040 --> 1:18:19.360 royalty pool that's being built up. Do you know if 1:18:19.360 --> 1:18:22.240 Spotify is planning to change anything in the model in 1:18:22.280 --> 1:18:25.360 the nearest future or instead of discussion that happens in 1:18:25.400 --> 1:18:30.840 the office. Well, um, and this is is a is 1:18:30.840 --> 1:18:34.240 a good question. You know. The reality is, you know, 1:18:34.640 --> 1:18:39.160 you kind of we I think we've gone through the 1:18:39.320 --> 1:18:45.080 sort of in a very very beginning of Spotify when 1:18:45.120 --> 1:18:49.280 when people said Spotify doesn't pay pay out, they were 1:18:49.360 --> 1:18:52.280 right because it was no scale, right, So it's just, 1:18:52.439 --> 1:18:56.840 you know, it's only a certain amount of paying customers 1:18:56.920 --> 1:19:00.599 on the platform, So the royalty payments were We're smaller 1:19:00.640 --> 1:19:04.439 in the beginning. You fast forward, now we we paid 1:19:04.479 --> 1:19:08.240 out over eight billion euros you know, to to to 1:19:08.280 --> 1:19:14.320 the music industry, and but how that's distributed to artists 1:19:14.320 --> 1:19:19.080 and creators is based off of individual deals. So at 1:19:19.080 --> 1:19:23.040 that point, you know, it's we can't make um, rights 1:19:23.080 --> 1:19:27.400 holders pay out any specific way, you know, is their 1:19:27.479 --> 1:19:31.720 individual deals with individual artists. Um. But the reality is, 1:19:32.360 --> 1:19:37.599 I think quite naturally, UM, just what what I see 1:19:37.640 --> 1:19:42.000 happening generally in the industry the next ten years are 1:19:42.000 --> 1:19:45.439 gonna look a lot different because you have a lot 1:19:45.479 --> 1:19:51.080 of are you got. I'm seeing artists that are um 1:19:51.120 --> 1:19:54.040 and I'm just gonna speak very candidly. I'm seeing a 1:19:54.040 --> 1:19:57.240 lot of artists that are opting to stay independent because 1:19:57.280 --> 1:20:00.519 they're seeing how much, you know, you can really make, 1:20:00.880 --> 1:20:02.640 you can really make a living and you get you 1:20:02.680 --> 1:20:05.880 get real cash flow in terms of not having to wait, 1:20:06.080 --> 1:20:08.599 you know, along along if you are independent, how often 1:20:08.680 --> 1:20:11.000 you get paid from Spotify, um you get. It depends 1:20:11.000 --> 1:20:13.679 on your aggregator and how your aggregator works. But let's 1:20:13.680 --> 1:20:16.559 say on average you get a monthly payment that trails. Right, 1:20:16.920 --> 1:20:19.040 So if I didn't mean to interrupt, do you get 1:20:19.040 --> 1:20:21.760 a monthly payment that that trails. But let's just talk 1:20:21.760 --> 1:20:23.920 about the future of the business. Right If we look 1:20:23.920 --> 1:20:26.240 at the future of the business, and we look at 1:20:26.240 --> 1:20:29.720 a cross and this isn't me predicting Spotify, I'm just 1:20:29.760 --> 1:20:32.840 talking specifically for the industry and looking at other types 1:20:32.880 --> 1:20:37.280 of industry, why shouldn't artists get paid If uber drivers 1:20:37.280 --> 1:20:41.280 and lift drivers now can say cash out after their 1:20:41.400 --> 1:20:44.200 drive and that and it goes directly into their bank 1:20:44.240 --> 1:20:48.000 account of PayPal account, my guess is artists in the future, 1:20:48.040 --> 1:20:50.479 are gonna be able to cash out after a day 1:20:50.520 --> 1:20:53.479 of streams, how whenever they meet, whenever they need that money. 1:20:53.880 --> 1:20:56.519 And cash flow is a big problem with artists. We 1:20:56.600 --> 1:20:58.880 know you might need to pay rent, you might need 1:20:58.920 --> 1:21:01.400 to buy gear, you might be going on tour, whatever, 1:21:01.439 --> 1:21:03.439 you might need to buy a car, whatever you need 1:21:03.479 --> 1:21:08.760 to do. Cash flows an issue. So when historically you 1:21:08.800 --> 1:21:12.120 know record labels have taken care of a cash flow problem, 1:21:12.160 --> 1:21:17.360 But in so I think UM, the question, the bigger 1:21:17.439 --> 1:21:25.240 question becomes value proposition. Well, the value proposition UM for 1:21:26.240 --> 1:21:29.879 of giving up eighty five of your of your revenue 1:21:30.080 --> 1:21:37.400 in exchange for marketing, promotion, cash advance, whatever is it 1:21:37.439 --> 1:21:41.479 gonna be worth it? And that's I think that's gonna 1:21:41.520 --> 1:21:44.120 be That's gonna be the biggest trick. But I think 1:21:44.479 --> 1:21:46.840 I don't think deals are gonna stay the same. I 1:21:46.880 --> 1:21:50.559 think that the whole value chain is gonna change. I 1:21:50.600 --> 1:21:55.960 think record labels are gonna um evolve their their value proposition. 1:21:56.360 --> 1:21:59.720 I think managers are gonna evolve their value proposition. I 1:21:59.800 --> 1:22:03.720 think UM those services are gonna start looking like each other. 1:22:03.880 --> 1:22:06.600 Management companies will look like labels, labels will look like 1:22:06.640 --> 1:22:10.000 management companies, and UM and then, But from there, I 1:22:10.000 --> 1:22:12.760 think it's going to be about the value that the 1:22:12.880 --> 1:22:16.080 artists feel like they can capture in the end. Does 1:22:16.080 --> 1:22:18.920 that answer? Does that help well? The other the other? 1:22:19.280 --> 1:22:21.519 But the other thing about I think you're addressing is 1:22:21.520 --> 1:22:23.680 at this point in time, is it's sixty seven or 1:22:23.680 --> 1:22:26.799 sixty eight percent of every dollar goes to right soldiers 1:22:27.520 --> 1:22:30.720 um from from Spotify. Yes, some somewhere in the area. Right, 1:22:30.760 --> 1:22:33.640 So what happened if you to deal with an aggregator 1:22:33.640 --> 1:22:35.479 like tune in, you pay, I mean the tune cord 1:22:35.560 --> 1:22:37.800 you paid once a year, all that money will be yours, 1:22:37.800 --> 1:22:40.400 assuming you both write the song and record the song. 1:22:40.640 --> 1:22:43.320 But if there's someone in between, like a label, assuming 1:22:43.360 --> 1:22:46.639 they're paying you at all, your deal maybe fifteen cents 1:22:46.720 --> 1:22:50.000 on the dollar that they get. But the issue this 1:22:50.080 --> 1:22:53.160 is also an interesting issue because they don't really want 1:22:53.439 --> 1:22:56.759 Spotify if they really start talking about this and pointing 1:22:56.760 --> 1:22:59.280 at the labels, their partners. The labels don't like it 1:22:59.320 --> 1:23:01.519 to be talked about. And we don't have to point 1:23:01.760 --> 1:23:03.840 like it, I think, And that's the whole thing, Like 1:23:04.120 --> 1:23:07.479 it's you know where where it's it's we We are 1:23:07.520 --> 1:23:11.720 a very transparent company and you know we don't. We 1:23:11.760 --> 1:23:14.519 don't play hide the ball with with with record labels. 1:23:14.560 --> 1:23:19.479 We talked very openly about the about our business to them. Um. 1:23:19.520 --> 1:23:22.200 We also talked to to to the record labels about 1:23:22.240 --> 1:23:24.800 what the future the business is gonna look like. And 1:23:26.160 --> 1:23:29.840 Daniels a guy who he lives ten years in the 1:23:29.960 --> 1:23:33.799 in in the future, like that's that's how he he thinks. 1:23:34.520 --> 1:23:37.200 And you know, my and you know and I laugh 1:23:37.320 --> 1:23:39.519 because at times I say, hold on you your ten 1:23:39.600 --> 1:23:42.439 years in the future. Sometimes I'm dealing with people who 1:23:42.439 --> 1:23:45.240 are ten years in the past. I gotta client of clothes. 1:23:45.320 --> 1:23:53.680 I gotta close the gap a little because mine very quickly. Okay, No, 1:23:53.840 --> 1:23:55.800 So I think Spotify is great, and I think that 1:23:55.880 --> 1:24:01.240 the okay and the payout is to rear to all distributions. 1:24:01.240 --> 1:24:04.439 So that's all great. I'm what part of my question 1:24:04.520 --> 1:24:07.160 was relating to the sort of pool what happens if 1:24:07.200 --> 1:24:12.519 I pay my I don't know what it's here not so, 1:24:12.560 --> 1:24:15.320 But what you're addressing is if I pay ten dollars 1:24:15.360 --> 1:24:18.320 and only listen to bandex, should be index get all 1:24:18.320 --> 1:24:21.120 of my ten dollars. About five years ago, somebody ran 1:24:21.200 --> 1:24:24.080 the numbers and they found that people were actually going 1:24:24.120 --> 1:24:26.760 to make less under that basis. I haven't seen the 1:24:26.840 --> 1:24:30.080 numbers run recently, but I would just go to the 1:24:30.120 --> 1:24:32.679 bottom line is but it goes to the pool, right Yeah. 1:24:32.760 --> 1:24:37.200 Spotify pays based on the listens, and every at least 1:24:37.200 --> 1:24:39.519 once a week somebody emails being something that's got fifty 1:24:39.520 --> 1:24:41.800 million streams that I have never heard of. It's not 1:24:41.880 --> 1:24:44.920 on a label. So people email me all the time 1:24:44.960 --> 1:24:47.120 that they're getting not even a million streams. Why are 1:24:47.160 --> 1:24:50.280 they not making money? The demand is not that high, 1:24:50.400 --> 1:24:53.759 but interesting topics just want to gainst other people a chance. Gentlemen, 1:24:53.880 --> 1:24:56.160 when Lady back there in a million, a million streams 1:24:56.240 --> 1:25:01.440 isn't a lot on our platform, I'm gonna switch topics 1:25:01.479 --> 1:25:04.559 just very quickly. I've loved this so much. Thank you. 1:25:04.720 --> 1:25:08.040 My background, I'm a Silicon Valley nerd and worked in 1:25:08.080 --> 1:25:11.800 digital audio forever, started off at digit Design and I 1:25:11.920 --> 1:25:15.240 have to hear, uh, what the tip was that Jimmy 1:25:15.280 --> 1:25:18.800 Ivan gave you to make Lady Gagas sound better on tour. 1:25:19.160 --> 1:25:22.639 I've just been dying to know what that was. That 1:25:22.720 --> 1:25:28.520 was what we we fired our front of house guy. 1:25:28.560 --> 1:25:30.920 I worked with a lot of sound engineers, so I 1:25:31.200 --> 1:25:33.720 know Horace, so hopefully it wasn't well. By the way, 1:25:33.720 --> 1:25:36.240 I love Horrors. By the way Hars we were Horrors 1:25:36.320 --> 1:25:38.400 was out with us for a long time. He's great. 1:25:38.400 --> 1:25:41.880 By the way, he did some of our best tours. Okay, 1:25:42.000 --> 1:25:44.439 we probably got hard right over here on the left, 1:25:44.479 --> 1:25:46.920 just to show we have interest over here. While he's standing, 1:25:46.960 --> 1:25:50.400 he can get it. We'll get next. Hi. Try great. 1:25:50.840 --> 1:25:53.760 This was a great discussion, moderation aside. I thought it 1:25:53.800 --> 1:25:59.800 was fantastic. Um. I mean talking ten years down down 1:25:59.800 --> 1:26:02.519 the road, the way Daniel seems to look at things. Um, 1:26:02.640 --> 1:26:05.439 some of us also try to look that way in 1:26:05.840 --> 1:26:07.720 terms of you know, you you mentioned a lot of 1:26:07.720 --> 1:26:10.759 strategic partnerships that you've had in your other business dealings. 1:26:11.600 --> 1:26:15.679 What about in terms of touring. Has Spotify looked towards 1:26:16.520 --> 1:26:20.599 strategic partnerships in that respect? You know, I talked we 1:26:20.800 --> 1:26:23.240 we talked about touring a lot, just because you know, 1:26:23.400 --> 1:26:29.799 it's it's an industry that we feel is it's it's broken, 1:26:30.640 --> 1:26:34.519 you know. Um. I was talking to one of our 1:26:34.600 --> 1:26:38.480 engineers about you know, product, and I was telling them 1:26:38.520 --> 1:26:43.080 it was I think it was with Gaga we sold out. 1:26:43.920 --> 1:26:46.040 We would put a tour up and I got a 1:26:46.080 --> 1:26:49.360 call from the promoter and they said, hey, we sold 1:26:49.400 --> 1:26:53.200 out four gardens and X amount of time, and you 1:26:53.240 --> 1:26:55.559 know we had we we had another two or three 1:26:55.560 --> 1:26:59.840 in the queue. I'm thinking, I'm like, that's not good news. 1:27:00.240 --> 1:27:03.639 Somebody should have known that it was you know, enough, 1:27:03.720 --> 1:27:07.120 we could have done three more gardens instead of us 1:27:07.160 --> 1:27:11.320 having to go to fucking Jersey after New York. Because 1:27:12.200 --> 1:27:16.040 to be able to monetize not have to pack up 1:27:16.080 --> 1:27:20.400 and move your show, not have to be hard on 1:27:20.400 --> 1:27:23.879 the artist's physical body by having to move them around 1:27:24.360 --> 1:27:28.040 is so many inefficiencies and in touring, and so the 1:27:28.040 --> 1:27:31.280 way towards around it right now is not through data, 1:27:31.760 --> 1:27:34.920 is basically through guys who have been out on the road, 1:27:34.960 --> 1:27:40.759 through booking agents, um, through hey, uh, this pop act 1:27:40.880 --> 1:27:43.600 did this amount of O two so you should be 1:27:43.640 --> 1:27:45.599 able to do this amount of O twos or whatever. 1:27:45.880 --> 1:27:50.280 There's no data. The merchandise business is the same exact thing. 1:27:50.320 --> 1:27:53.720 It's no it's no data. So we feel like, you know, 1:27:53.840 --> 1:27:57.080 there's enough data at least that we have where we 1:27:57.160 --> 1:28:01.400 can identify super fans on on the platform and specific markets, 1:28:01.920 --> 1:28:05.880 and if with access to other types of data be 1:28:06.000 --> 1:28:10.559 at venue data pollstar data, you know, the artists, you know, UM, 1:28:10.640 --> 1:28:14.519 their their fan site data, some other things. You can 1:28:14.720 --> 1:28:20.400 really make well informed decisions on touring, but not even 1:28:20.640 --> 1:28:31.960 the getta getta my. But I think even the product 1:28:32.080 --> 1:28:36.840 now though, to me, is remedial in terms of what's available. 1:28:36.960 --> 1:28:39.920 Like to be honest with you, I like routing the 1:28:40.040 --> 1:28:46.559 tour is the easiest part, right, but understanding who is 1:28:56.360 --> 1:29:00.760 I'm doing that now? I'm doing it now. I did 1:29:00.880 --> 1:29:04.640 three hundred of them last year probably, so we you know, 1:29:04.680 --> 1:29:07.280 we probably sold close to a hundred million and tickets 1:29:07.280 --> 1:29:11.200 for people, so we we Well, so it's supposed to 1:29:11.200 --> 1:29:13.439 be clear. I get that email who's playing in my 1:29:13.439 --> 1:29:18.240 neighborhood from Spotify, but not not that okay, so I'm 1:29:18.320 --> 1:29:20.839 aware of that. Tell me about selling the super fans. 1:29:20.960 --> 1:29:25.960 So so basically yes, So basically what happens is UM 1:29:26.240 --> 1:29:29.360 booking agents come to us or managers that come to us, 1:29:29.720 --> 1:29:33.000 and we do two things. So we either can help 1:29:33.800 --> 1:29:37.080 UM a lot of like superstars that come to us, 1:29:37.160 --> 1:29:41.160 and they'll say, we only want our super fans and 1:29:41.920 --> 1:29:45.479 x amount in the first few rows throughout the entire tour. 1:29:45.960 --> 1:29:49.160 So can you market the show with this? With the 1:29:49.360 --> 1:29:52.840 with this ticket allocation to our super fans. So that's 1:29:53.000 --> 1:29:55.400 one one part of it, so where we'll market the 1:29:55.400 --> 1:29:58.240 show to the super fans on our through our platform 1:29:58.360 --> 1:30:01.040 essentially through our data. And then the other piece of 1:30:01.040 --> 1:30:04.599 it is distressed inventory, So for shows that aren't selling, 1:30:05.040 --> 1:30:09.120 being able to identify those super fans and those markets 1:30:09.120 --> 1:30:12.240 who may not know that the show's coming through and 1:30:12.320 --> 1:30:15.400 being able to to sell the distressed inventory as well. 1:30:15.920 --> 1:30:18.439 So what you'll see and by the way, even with 1:30:18.600 --> 1:30:21.719 the amount of tickets that we sold through there, um, 1:30:21.760 --> 1:30:25.760 we still think it's remedial. So the products that you 1:30:25.800 --> 1:30:27.840 know we're working on right now, we feel like it's 1:30:27.840 --> 1:30:30.200 gonna get better and better. So one like one of 1:30:30.240 --> 1:30:34.680 the things Daniel talked about on our investor relations day, um, 1:30:34.720 --> 1:30:37.360 you know a couple of months ago, was this idea 1:30:37.400 --> 1:30:41.600 about a mark building out a marketplace. So essentially spotify 1:30:41.920 --> 1:30:45.840 is is will evolve into a marketplace where artists don't 1:30:45.880 --> 1:30:47.920 need us to do it. They'll be able to come 1:30:47.960 --> 1:30:50.880 on there and reach their fans directly, sell their tickets 1:30:50.920 --> 1:30:54.760 to their fans, directly merchandise message their fans, and to 1:30:54.880 --> 1:30:57.840 kind of build this relationship. Okay, who has the mic 1:30:57.960 --> 1:30:59.720 right now, I got I got one over here. I 1:30:59.800 --> 1:31:04.960 just round it. Thank you, thank you. UM. You brought 1:31:05.040 --> 1:31:08.720 up India verses or artists wanting to stay indy. I 1:31:08.760 --> 1:31:11.160 think one of the biggest points of that is to 1:31:11.240 --> 1:31:14.559 have control. How many artists have recorded records and are 1:31:14.600 --> 1:31:16.800 just sitting there. So I think the biggest factor and 1:31:16.840 --> 1:31:20.120 staying independent is to have that control of of doing 1:31:20.160 --> 1:31:23.160 your career the way you wanted to. UM. I've been 1:31:23.200 --> 1:31:25.960 on both sides of the majors in the Indies. I 1:31:26.000 --> 1:31:29.719 spent my first fifty or sixty decades at a major 1:31:29.920 --> 1:31:33.160 and my last sixty decades on the indie side. UM. 1:31:33.200 --> 1:31:35.960 I think right now, you know the answer is. I 1:31:36.000 --> 1:31:40.560 don't think it's radio or Spotify or TV or festivals 1:31:40.640 --> 1:31:43.240 or it's almost like what you did with Gaga is 1:31:43.240 --> 1:31:45.840 you ran around and did everything. You know. I think 1:31:45.880 --> 1:31:48.919 the future kind of is the past. I was preceded 1:31:48.920 --> 1:31:52.360 by a guy named Juggie Gayles, and Juggie was like 1:31:52.400 --> 1:31:54.679 a song he was. He was a plugger. They called 1:31:54.720 --> 1:31:57.640 him song Fluggers, and they just went everywhere they went, 1:31:57.760 --> 1:31:59.920 you know, and you go everywhere. You have this intuition 1:32:00.280 --> 1:32:02.880 and you navigate it and try to you know fan 1:32:03.000 --> 1:32:05.479 the flames. I I think you know you brought up 1:32:05.520 --> 1:32:09.400 research and radio's research. I don't think the concept of 1:32:09.400 --> 1:32:13.080 research isn't incorrect. Like I look at the research on Spotify, 1:32:13.280 --> 1:32:15.760 you look at what people are really doing. I think 1:32:15.880 --> 1:32:20.200 radio built this archaic, um call out research paradigm where 1:32:20.240 --> 1:32:22.880 they feel they can look in the rear view mirror 1:32:23.000 --> 1:32:24.640 or as those are the people who are listening to 1:32:24.680 --> 1:32:27.439 their stations. And that's that's what the problem is. It's 1:32:27.720 --> 1:32:31.599 it's they're so entrenched in that system and that's what's 1:32:31.640 --> 1:32:35.560 hurting them to, you know, to move to towards the future. Um. 1:32:35.640 --> 1:32:40.360 I was um thinking about Spotify. I was thinking about consumption. 1:32:40.479 --> 1:32:42.920 Everything is about you know you when you look at 1:32:42.920 --> 1:32:45.439 the numbers on wrap or Wrap Cavy or a hip hop, 1:32:45.720 --> 1:32:49.280 there tend to one right oh and yet where you 1:32:49.280 --> 1:32:51.800 may tend to one in terms of like I look 1:32:51.840 --> 1:32:54.880 at the amount of followers, the amount of listeners, the 1:32:54.880 --> 1:32:58.479 amount how how huge hip hop is right now? And 1:32:58.960 --> 1:33:02.400 I was thinking about the live business, about about these 1:33:02.439 --> 1:33:06.559 festivals where I'm getting to the question, um, when when 1:33:06.600 --> 1:33:10.680 you're looking at these festivals now Lallapalooza, bonar ruays here 1:33:10.760 --> 1:33:13.680 every day, there's more and more festivals and what's driving them, 1:33:13.960 --> 1:33:17.240 and it's it's um. The irony is that it's a 1:33:17.400 --> 1:33:19.720 time when people can be alone, they can sit in 1:33:19.800 --> 1:33:22.920 their house and be on the internet. They're all going 1:33:22.960 --> 1:33:26.200 out to these festivals and all you know, it's it's 1:33:26.320 --> 1:33:29.679 it's fascinating to me. And when I look at these 1:33:29.840 --> 1:33:31.720 festivals and I look at again, I'm not in the 1:33:31.800 --> 1:33:34.000 touring side. I'm on the record of music side, but 1:33:35.280 --> 1:33:38.559 that that's being driven a lot by alternative and rock 1:33:38.680 --> 1:33:40.519 more than I think, you know, on the hip hop side. 1:33:40.960 --> 1:33:43.040 And my question to you is, why do you think 1:33:43.080 --> 1:33:47.719 there's such a disparity between you know, the recorded music side, 1:33:47.760 --> 1:33:50.080 the hip hop and the wrap and the live business 1:33:50.240 --> 1:33:52.760 where these people are coming out in droves. Why is 1:33:52.800 --> 1:33:56.360 the recorded music and have such a higher demand, you know, 1:33:56.439 --> 1:33:59.400 on the hip hop side compared to I don't think 1:33:59.439 --> 1:34:02.599 it's a already at all. Like you know, you see 1:34:04.360 --> 1:34:07.599 hip hop acts that are selling you know, arenas out 1:34:07.800 --> 1:34:10.240 every every single night of a week, So I like, 1:34:10.400 --> 1:34:12.360 I don't think it's I don't think it's a disparity. 1:34:12.800 --> 1:34:14.920 And then when you look at you know, I think 1:34:15.000 --> 1:34:18.959 they're especially with the younger consumer like a Cachella consumer 1:34:19.280 --> 1:34:22.559 or or lollapalooza. You know, you look at the festival 1:34:22.680 --> 1:34:26.800 lineups and is diverse, you know, and I think the diversity, Yeah, 1:34:26.840 --> 1:34:30.040 I think the diversity and and um, even with this 1:34:30.160 --> 1:34:34.120 past Catchella is a reflection of the way you know, 1:34:34.439 --> 1:34:36.840 kids are listening to music, so where they are listening 1:34:36.920 --> 1:34:41.000 to all different all different types. Huh it was Mike 1:34:41.160 --> 1:34:43.080 right here. I don't, I don't. It's not that it's 1:34:43.080 --> 1:34:46.519 catching up. I don't think it was ever behind. Actually 1:34:46.520 --> 1:34:47.880 I think it was behind. I think a lot of 1:34:47.960 --> 1:34:50.920 the festivals were booked by old white guys. But but 1:34:51.240 --> 1:34:54.240 when you say live, live and festivals are two different things. 1:34:54.400 --> 1:34:56.880 The lot, the lot, the live business has never been, 1:34:57.360 --> 1:35:01.040 never been behind. But like I think festival realized they 1:35:01.120 --> 1:35:03.240 had to wake up and diversify the business if they 1:35:03.280 --> 1:35:19.800 wanted to keep with the with the consumer. Okay, gentlemen here, Okay, yeah, um, 1:35:20.000 --> 1:35:22.240 going back, I think Bob, you're you actually asked a 1:35:22.320 --> 1:35:26.479 question about uh, possibly labels controlling too much of what 1:35:26.680 --> 1:35:31.200 gets to the list. Um, you made a comment about hype. 1:35:31.280 --> 1:35:33.439 Is you know there's no hype, it's the numbers don't lie, 1:35:35.120 --> 1:35:40.320 which list though well, because it's paylists right, right, So 1:35:40.400 --> 1:35:44.080 here's my question is of those how many how many 1:35:44.240 --> 1:35:46.920 editors are there? And then sort of the part two is, 1:35:47.600 --> 1:35:50.200 let's take an act that has no touring base, right, 1:35:50.520 --> 1:35:53.040 and I'm gonna use some old terms, but you can 1:35:53.080 --> 1:35:55.599 never get to call out without having the ad, right, 1:35:55.680 --> 1:35:57.519 So you've got to have that initial ad before you 1:35:57.520 --> 1:36:00.720 can get the call out. So before you can get 1:36:00.760 --> 1:36:02.800 to numbers, there have to be some amount of hype 1:36:02.880 --> 1:36:05.400 or some amount of connection to those editors, right, No, 1:36:05.720 --> 1:36:07.720 not at all, like it's it's just a it's a 1:36:07.880 --> 1:36:12.320 handful like so to answer, I'll answer if you your questions. 1:36:12.400 --> 1:36:17.240 So is is a few hundred editors globally at Spotify, 1:36:17.479 --> 1:36:23.720 across the across the different genres. Our editors especially and 1:36:24.120 --> 1:36:28.800 in certain specific genres, they pride like part of their 1:36:29.600 --> 1:36:33.720 culture is you got to find stuff before everybody else 1:36:33.880 --> 1:36:36.200 finds it. That's like that's part of hip hop culture, 1:36:36.240 --> 1:36:39.240 by the way, and part of Latin culture is as well. 1:36:39.760 --> 1:36:42.479 You want to get there early before anybody gets it. 1:36:43.000 --> 1:36:46.480 So they're looking for and they're competing with other services 1:36:46.600 --> 1:36:49.080 as well trying to find stuff. So a lot of 1:36:49.120 --> 1:36:54.320 the stuff that um our editors are finding like record 1:36:54.400 --> 1:36:58.719 companies call me every single day of the week trying 1:36:58.760 --> 1:37:02.479 to sign acts that are independent on on on Spotify. 1:37:02.640 --> 1:37:04.960 They're trying to sign these records that are that that 1:37:05.080 --> 1:37:08.160 are doing well. And then you know, in the reality 1:37:08.439 --> 1:37:11.840 and just when we look at some of the big categories, 1:37:13.080 --> 1:37:16.800 major labels are over index and a hit records you got, 1:37:17.000 --> 1:37:18.920 you know, so you know, when we talk about you know, 1:37:19.040 --> 1:37:25.760 certain name like certain categories that people come to me 1:37:25.920 --> 1:37:29.240 sort of complaining about, they can't name me any big 1:37:29.320 --> 1:37:31.639 acts in that in that category in the first place. 1:37:32.120 --> 1:37:34.680 So it's like, you know, I think major labels do 1:37:34.800 --> 1:37:39.080 an incredible job at making big top forty records, so 1:37:39.200 --> 1:37:43.400 that quite naturally they're gonna control a big portion of 1:37:44.040 --> 1:37:47.840 big top forty playlists. You know. When it comes to 1:37:48.520 --> 1:37:51.760 jazz music, maybe not so much. It comes to some 1:37:51.920 --> 1:37:54.920 of the categories, maybe maybe not so much. But I 1:37:55.040 --> 1:37:57.920 think it's um I think it's one of those things 1:37:58.000 --> 1:38:02.360 that people have started talking about so much that people 1:38:02.479 --> 1:38:05.640 start believing that that that's actually the case. And I 1:38:05.840 --> 1:38:11.200 just come from I come from a school of hit 1:38:11.320 --> 1:38:18.080 records work, hit records work. Doug Morris, I remember going 1:38:18.160 --> 1:38:21.559 into Doug Morris's office after he left Universal and right 1:38:21.600 --> 1:38:24.760 before he went into Sony and UM, and he was 1:38:24.840 --> 1:38:29.000 asking me about, um, what a record that that we 1:38:29.280 --> 1:38:31.639 that that I put out on one of our acts, 1:38:32.200 --> 1:38:33.800 and you know, and I said, you know what, the 1:38:33.920 --> 1:38:36.519 video was too dark? You know, I kind of saw this, 1:38:36.720 --> 1:38:38.920 you know, just change with the consumer. And you know 1:38:39.040 --> 1:38:42.040 it wasn't popping up. He said, no, it wasn't a hit. 1:38:44.840 --> 1:38:48.040 He said, it wasn't a hit. And that's the reality. 1:38:49.240 --> 1:38:52.800 Nobody wants to admit when their records aren't hits. So 1:38:52.960 --> 1:38:55.479 most of the complaints I get from people don't they 1:38:55.520 --> 1:39:04.000 don't have hit records over here. You mentioned that streaming 1:39:04.080 --> 1:39:06.120 is in its infancy. What does it look like when 1:39:06.200 --> 1:39:09.719 it's matured? And also based on the data, what emerging 1:39:09.760 --> 1:39:12.400 genres are there that you guys are seeing. Well, you know, 1:39:12.479 --> 1:39:14.439 I think you know when you talk about when when 1:39:14.479 --> 1:39:16.840 it's matured, you know, and this is where I think 1:39:17.600 --> 1:39:21.720 we underestimate, you know, the size of of what the 1:39:21.800 --> 1:39:25.840 global recorded music market is going to be. So everybody 1:39:25.960 --> 1:39:30.000 talks about the sort of heyday of the record business 1:39:30.120 --> 1:39:32.280 at its height, and you know, when we were selling 1:39:32.439 --> 1:39:35.400 selling a lot of C D s more people are 1:39:35.520 --> 1:39:38.360 on on this planet are gonna have mobile phones than 1:39:38.439 --> 1:39:41.479 they had CD players. So and when you look at 1:39:42.160 --> 1:39:48.240 the amount of youth, the youth population that's rising in 1:39:48.400 --> 1:39:52.439 Africa and in India, you look at China that you 1:39:52.520 --> 1:39:55.920 know that's never been a factor. And how and the 1:39:56.120 --> 1:40:00.519 and the paid music market I think is gonna. I 1:40:01.360 --> 1:40:05.040 think the music industry is gonna undergo exponential growth like 1:40:05.200 --> 1:40:08.080 we've never seen before. I think what we have to 1:40:08.160 --> 1:40:14.000 adjust to, you know, we are I think as and 1:40:14.080 --> 1:40:18.439 I'm just saying is just generally speaking the music industry 1:40:18.560 --> 1:40:22.679 we operate as elite like, as elitists. So where we're 1:40:22.760 --> 1:40:26.520 under this impression that everybody is gonna buy a subscription 1:40:27.040 --> 1:40:30.640 and everybody in the world can afford. And if you 1:40:30.720 --> 1:40:34.280 look at the price of gas this week, people can't 1:40:34.320 --> 1:40:37.080 afford to put gas in their tank. People are barely 1:40:37.160 --> 1:40:41.800 making it in this country. People are struggling. And I 1:40:41.920 --> 1:40:46.840 think it's finding ways where Okay, whether it's through uh, 1:40:47.280 --> 1:40:50.760 you know, advertising subsidies or whatever. I think there's ways 1:40:50.840 --> 1:40:56.080 to monetize you know, a billion plus consumer base across 1:40:56.280 --> 1:40:59.640 you know, the the entire music industry. Um, I think 1:40:59.760 --> 1:41:02.000 day the plans you know, and that's one of the 1:41:02.080 --> 1:41:04.120 things we talked about last week with the new free 1:41:04.200 --> 1:41:06.880 tier was being able to you know, we built you know, 1:41:07.040 --> 1:41:10.000 lighter data plans because you know, so on on your phone, 1:41:10.120 --> 1:41:12.599 it's not eating up your data plan. So I think 1:41:12.960 --> 1:41:17.400 what's ahead of us is gonna is it's gonna. I 1:41:17.479 --> 1:41:20.160 think we're gonna see something like we we've never seen before. 1:41:20.439 --> 1:41:26.560 But but the market is UM. I don't want to 1:41:26.600 --> 1:41:28.639 say a number, but I think it's way, way bigger 1:41:28.680 --> 1:41:31.120 than what we've ever seen. Young lady right here, you've 1:41:31.120 --> 1:41:35.920 been waiting. I UM. What about the role um of 1:41:36.080 --> 1:41:40.599 curators on the platform and independent curators. Is Spotify developing 1:41:40.600 --> 1:41:44.760 a program even for example radio stations, blogs, um, just 1:41:44.920 --> 1:41:47.840 independent curators. What I don't see anything being done for 1:41:48.000 --> 1:41:52.520 profiles for those entities and people. You you have independent 1:41:52.600 --> 1:41:56.360 curators that um, that are on the platform where you 1:41:56.439 --> 1:41:59.320 know where they and some people do a really good 1:41:59.400 --> 1:42:01.360 job at promo in their playlists and they you know, 1:42:01.520 --> 1:42:05.439 built followers. UM. You know, for us, our priority had 1:42:05.520 --> 1:42:09.080 to be our own and operated playlists, you know, because 1:42:09.120 --> 1:42:12.160 I think we were able to control the integrity of 1:42:12.560 --> 1:42:15.120 those playlists. And what I mean by that is just 1:42:15.240 --> 1:42:18.960 making sure it doesn't turn to a place where people 1:42:19.080 --> 1:42:22.200 can pay people to get on playlist and you know 1:42:22.320 --> 1:42:25.640 so and I think you know, when that ecosystem was 1:42:25.720 --> 1:42:28.280 open in the in the beginning, a lot of you know, 1:42:28.360 --> 1:42:31.040 we had to change the terms of services because you 1:42:31.160 --> 1:42:34.160 had a lot of people paying to get on playlists 1:42:34.880 --> 1:42:37.840 or you know, exchanging favors to get on to get 1:42:37.880 --> 1:42:40.840 on playlists. And the only thing that does is makes 1:42:40.960 --> 1:42:47.559 for uh a terrible consumer experience versus best song wins. 1:42:47.960 --> 1:42:51.080 So essentially, if we can program in a way where 1:42:51.240 --> 1:42:54.519 where best song wins is a better experience for the 1:42:54.640 --> 1:42:57.920 for the consumer. But we're not like there are a 1:42:58.000 --> 1:43:00.320 lot of brands and people who are built than their 1:43:00.400 --> 1:43:04.280 their profiles. But our priority is is owned and operated. 1:43:05.120 --> 1:43:08.599 Who has the mic? Now? Yeah, right here, I try 1:43:08.920 --> 1:43:12.560 just going back to the future of streaming, UM, we 1:43:12.680 --> 1:43:17.120 see pricing differentiation for hires players like COB's entitle UM. 1:43:17.280 --> 1:43:19.720 Do you think that's sustainable? And my second question is, 1:43:20.439 --> 1:43:24.760 UM there's new UM streaming platforms like prime Phonic, which 1:43:24.800 --> 1:43:27.240 are focused on classical music. Do you think the future 1:43:27.280 --> 1:43:30.040 will be sort of based on differentiation by genre or 1:43:30.520 --> 1:43:33.360 do you think the hardware ecosystem will dominate. You know, 1:43:33.520 --> 1:43:36.519 I think, you know, just in my my opinion, I 1:43:36.640 --> 1:43:41.120 think UM, having a niche UM a knee service is 1:43:41.600 --> 1:43:44.360 deaf is difficult, right, you know, because when you can 1:43:44.439 --> 1:43:49.920 get and and everything essentially that you pretty much want 1:43:49.960 --> 1:43:53.400 to listen to and in one place, UM, you gotta 1:43:53.439 --> 1:43:57.400 have a compelling value proposition to drive somebody to pay 1:43:57.479 --> 1:44:01.360 specifically for that niche service and in UM this sort 1:44:01.400 --> 1:44:04.360 of financial models to operate as a business around that, 1:44:04.560 --> 1:44:07.080 and my I just think would be and it would 1:44:07.080 --> 1:44:10.600 be challenging, you know, especially as you're competing against you know, 1:44:10.840 --> 1:44:13.280 some some of the some of the larger players UM 1:44:13.320 --> 1:44:18.120 in terms of you know, fidelity you know you got 1:44:18.400 --> 1:44:21.639 I'm one of the the niche consumers that cares about 1:44:22.000 --> 1:44:25.600 you know, sound and and for me, its specifically for 1:44:26.000 --> 1:44:29.120 jazz music, Like when I listen to jazz and UM, 1:44:29.439 --> 1:44:31.760 you know, I got high fidelity speakers. I want to 1:44:31.840 --> 1:44:34.880 listen to it and and and and high fidelity UM. 1:44:35.760 --> 1:44:38.160 But for a lot of the other records, is like 1:44:40.040 --> 1:44:42.200 you don't need to listen to it in high fidelity, right, 1:44:42.560 --> 1:44:45.000 but you got to find a big enough audience that's 1:44:45.080 --> 1:44:49.080 willing to pay for it. Um, I'd love to get 1:44:49.120 --> 1:44:52.120 to a place where everybody cares about how how records 1:44:52.280 --> 1:44:55.160 you know, were intended to sound. But you know, I 1:44:55.240 --> 1:44:58.640 don't know if the general population, uh if that if 1:44:58.720 --> 1:45:02.479 that's something that they really genuinely care about, and I 1:45:02.560 --> 1:45:09.840 don't think we've been able to, um how like, so 1:45:09.960 --> 1:45:14.640 when the jump from cassette to c D was so 1:45:14.880 --> 1:45:19.120 exponential in terms of sound, and the jump from VHS too, 1:45:19.400 --> 1:45:23.400 you know, DVD was so was was exponential in terms 1:45:23.439 --> 1:45:27.120 of you know, a visual and sound, we haven't been 1:45:27.160 --> 1:45:30.759 able to kind of give any sort of exponential jump 1:45:30.920 --> 1:45:33.400 yet to make people want to leap from from this 1:45:33.600 --> 1:45:49.559 to that. Ye just talking about Yeah, I don't okay, Jamie, Jamie, 1:45:49.600 --> 1:45:55.760 you have a question. I probably good to see. Yeah, Um, 1:45:56.160 --> 1:45:57.760 I have two questions and I want to I'll cut 1:45:57.840 --> 1:46:01.280 it down to one. And so I'm Lars Maria used 1:46:01.280 --> 1:46:03.240 to be at Pandora. The question that I have that 1:46:03.360 --> 1:46:05.799 I don't think anybody's asked you, what is the lowest 1:46:05.880 --> 1:46:09.519 hanging fruit that you think people are not picking off 1:46:09.560 --> 1:46:11.880 of Spotify right now? Used to drive me crazy that 1:46:12.160 --> 1:46:14.800 there were things I couldn't explain or I could explain, 1:46:14.880 --> 1:46:16.680 and people just wouldn't do it, Like, what are they 1:46:16.760 --> 1:46:18.439 not doing? I mean, I think going back to what 1:46:18.600 --> 1:46:20.960 market you say, people, and it's just I'm talking about 1:46:21.120 --> 1:46:24.080 the the industry, you know. Um, you know, Mark was 1:46:24.120 --> 1:46:25.720 talking about how are you selling tickets? And you're like, 1:46:26.240 --> 1:46:28.200 we just sold a hundred million dollars worth of tickets? 1:46:28.280 --> 1:46:31.200 Like what what across the board is the thing that 1:46:31.280 --> 1:46:34.840 people should be thinking about that they're not. I don't know, 1:46:35.080 --> 1:46:38.840 you know, um, I think I don't know if I 1:46:38.960 --> 1:46:41.240 have an answer for the low hanging fruit, but I 1:46:41.400 --> 1:46:46.280 do think the industry one of the biggest problems that 1:46:46.400 --> 1:46:51.960 I see is this sort of people haven't been able 1:46:52.040 --> 1:46:56.320 to differentiate. People haven't been able to fully move into 1:46:56.360 --> 1:46:59.360 a new model yet because people still think we're a 1:46:59.439 --> 1:47:04.040 retail were not a retailer. Um, people still think we're 1:47:04.160 --> 1:47:07.599 like radio, where we're not radio like. So even down 1:47:07.680 --> 1:47:11.000 to the point where the people still haven't figured out 1:47:11.200 --> 1:47:13.800 who at the company should really interface with us yet. 1:47:13.880 --> 1:47:16.679 Should it be a promo guy? Is that the sales team? 1:47:16.840 --> 1:47:19.479 Is it marketing? Like? So I think it's kind of 1:47:19.920 --> 1:47:26.120 understanding that this is a totally new system. The way 1:47:26.200 --> 1:47:29.200 the old system work doesn't work with with with with this, 1:47:29.439 --> 1:47:32.760 with this new system, and then so so and even 1:47:32.880 --> 1:47:36.000 down to going back to I get so many calls 1:47:36.120 --> 1:47:39.640 from people that say, I'm at a million streams and 1:47:39.680 --> 1:47:42.840 I'm like, a million streams is nothing, Like it's not 1:47:43.040 --> 1:47:45.760 there yet. You gotta get there, like it's um but 1:47:46.200 --> 1:47:48.879 because people in the record business think a million records 1:47:49.120 --> 1:47:53.360 your platinum, a million streams isn't platinum, you know. So 1:47:53.479 --> 1:47:56.960 it's like, so it's this sort of uh chasm you 1:47:57.040 --> 1:47:59.040 got that that hasn't been crossed yet. So if I 1:47:59.080 --> 1:48:01.760 can steal a quick follow up on that, cycles, how 1:48:01.800 --> 1:48:06.479 do you do you have insight to tell everybody about cycles? 1:48:06.520 --> 1:48:09.320 And how I mean cycles are different now in a stream? 1:48:09.520 --> 1:48:14.240 What types of cycles? Song cycles? Uh, career cycles, album cycles, 1:48:14.320 --> 1:48:17.160 all of that. Who's doing it? Right? So? So the 1:48:17.240 --> 1:48:20.080 way so I look at it as perpetual cycles, right, 1:48:20.200 --> 1:48:22.880 So it's not it's no more on on on and off. 1:48:23.640 --> 1:48:27.400 And you know what what we see now is you 1:48:27.520 --> 1:48:31.720 know you look at um you know two good examples 1:48:31.760 --> 1:48:35.599 of like a Bruno Mars or at Sharon where their 1:48:35.880 --> 1:48:40.560 former albums just continue to kind of perform well. And 1:48:43.960 --> 1:48:47.080 chain Smokers there, you know, I think Adam and and 1:48:47.280 --> 1:48:50.320 and those guys are are really brilliant in terms of 1:48:50.680 --> 1:48:53.040 how they they're They're just innovative in their approach to 1:48:53.400 --> 1:48:56.759 to release the music, the hip hop game in general. 1:48:57.320 --> 1:49:00.720 I would just say, you know, they win loose. You know, 1:49:00.840 --> 1:49:04.479 they went gold star in terms of being able to um, 1:49:05.280 --> 1:49:09.200 to cater to new conc to the way consumers consume 1:49:09.920 --> 1:49:14.080 and um. And it's just it bugs me out because 1:49:14.120 --> 1:49:18.560 the record business we used to be so forward and 1:49:20.800 --> 1:49:26.120 how like when we we turned Tuesdays into events right 1:49:26.280 --> 1:49:30.200 where it was, you know, when we put out albums, 1:49:30.320 --> 1:49:33.880 the way we set up set up albums, film studios 1:49:33.920 --> 1:49:36.400 were envied away. You know that that that we did it, 1:49:37.040 --> 1:49:43.840 and but yet Netflix is kicking our ass and innovation 1:49:44.280 --> 1:49:50.840 of releases. You know, so when you released you know, 1:49:51.920 --> 1:49:54.120 I was telling I was at one of the record 1:49:54.200 --> 1:49:57.040 labels and they were talking about all of their new 1:49:57.160 --> 1:50:00.280 acts that broke on you know, because I I was 1:50:00.360 --> 1:50:04.719 complaining about artists development, and I'm like, you gotta build stars, 1:50:04.960 --> 1:50:08.000 Like just because they're getting streams don't mean that their stars. 1:50:08.439 --> 1:50:10.720 And they're telling me what we broke this act this year, 1:50:10.840 --> 1:50:12.720 this act, this year, this act this year, and this 1:50:12.880 --> 1:50:16.280 act this year. I said I'll tell you what if 1:50:17.439 --> 1:50:20.800 you took those four artists right now and they got 1:50:20.840 --> 1:50:22.960 out of their car in front of the school that's 1:50:23.000 --> 1:50:26.559 across the street, and you took the kids from Stranger 1:50:26.680 --> 1:50:30.519 Things and they got out of the car, every kid's 1:50:30.560 --> 1:50:34.320 gonna run to the kids from Stranger Things. Like that's 1:50:34.479 --> 1:50:37.799 this year's one direction. We don't have a one direction 1:50:37.920 --> 1:50:41.120 right now. That's one direction right now. You look at 1:50:41.200 --> 1:50:47.519 how we're still releasing single single, single album. You're releasing 1:50:47.680 --> 1:50:51.400 three singles before album, and Netflix is dropping the whole 1:50:51.560 --> 1:50:55.800 season on you day day one because everybody wants it there. 1:50:56.080 --> 1:50:58.040 And I asked the record I asked the record label, 1:50:58.040 --> 1:50:59.439 I said, why are you still doing it like that? 1:50:59.760 --> 1:51:03.080 But as a radio you want to build up a 1:51:03.160 --> 1:51:07.639 certain audience first, because the first week, first week means zero, 1:51:08.600 --> 1:51:12.000 first week means nothing anymore. So, so it's kind of 1:51:12.080 --> 1:51:14.439 just getting people to cross over to the new world. 1:51:14.920 --> 1:51:18.519 And and and I'm seeing some younger labels and some 1:51:18.720 --> 1:51:22.599 younger artists right now, and that has no historical baggage. 1:51:23.080 --> 1:51:26.200 That are, you know, plowing their way into into into 1:51:26.240 --> 1:51:31.439 the new world very quickly. Single album. If you're a 1:51:31.520 --> 1:51:34.200 new artist, should people even bother to make albums or 1:51:34.200 --> 1:51:36.680 continue to put out a continuous dreament product. If if 1:51:36.760 --> 1:51:39.160 you can make a great album, make an album. The 1:51:39.280 --> 1:51:43.400 problem is, you know, making a great album. That's a 1:51:43.439 --> 1:51:49.240 big challenge. Jamie, you said something, uh that really kind 1:51:49.280 --> 1:51:54.519 of perked my ears up a bit. Um. You said 1:51:54.560 --> 1:51:57.960 that radio is in trouble, and I absolutely agree. And 1:51:58.080 --> 1:52:02.160 I think that you're that Spotify as integration into automobiles 1:52:02.479 --> 1:52:05.040 is going to even put another nail in that coffin. 1:52:05.760 --> 1:52:08.519 But we aren't there yet. We aren't. Radio is not 1:52:08.680 --> 1:52:12.760 dead yet. So you had said something that you did 1:52:12.800 --> 1:52:18.200 with Gaga where it was um social media and YouTube 1:52:18.439 --> 1:52:20.400 and getting the music out there so that by the 1:52:20.479 --> 1:52:23.759 time it went to radio and they were doing their testing, 1:52:24.320 --> 1:52:27.040 that everybody was already familiar with it, so it tested 1:52:27.080 --> 1:52:32.000 really well. Later you said that labels kind of have 1:52:32.200 --> 1:52:35.599 to pick. Are you going to go the radio route 1:52:35.640 --> 1:52:37.719 where you put a half million dollars behind a track 1:52:38.479 --> 1:52:42.560 or are you going to go the Spotify route? And like, 1:52:43.160 --> 1:52:46.679 I does a label really have to choose or should 1:52:46.720 --> 1:52:48.760 they just be working it back? So let me let 1:52:48.800 --> 1:52:51.160 me clarify it. So so I don't think you have 1:52:51.280 --> 1:52:54.080 to choose between going to Spotify or going to radio. 1:52:55.080 --> 1:52:58.000 Um So, I was talking specifically around if you have 1:52:58.080 --> 1:53:04.440 a single and you start the single off on Spotify, 1:53:05.400 --> 1:53:08.519 by the time you build up that big enough story 1:53:08.640 --> 1:53:11.640 for radio, chances are it is gonna be Oh, that 1:53:11.800 --> 1:53:15.720 single is gonna be over on our platform. Yes, so so, 1:53:15.880 --> 1:53:19.240 but what we get a lot is complaints that we're 1:53:19.280 --> 1:53:22.360 not hanging in there long enough on the single because 1:53:22.400 --> 1:53:25.880 it's not building, it's not uh linking in uh, it's 1:53:25.920 --> 1:53:29.800 not fused with their radio stories essentially, And I think 1:53:29.880 --> 1:53:33.559 for us it's not our that that's just not our 1:53:33.720 --> 1:53:38.200 problem because because only we gotta we gotta do. We 1:53:38.439 --> 1:53:41.720 have to build the great experience for the consumer. That's 1:53:41.760 --> 1:53:43.880 the like, that's our number one thing. It has to 1:53:43.960 --> 1:53:47.000 be a great experience for the consumer. And um so, 1:53:47.280 --> 1:53:49.599 so that's where that's the sort of catch twenty two 1:53:50.080 --> 1:53:53.519 that we're finding, you know, some some of the labels 1:53:53.560 --> 1:53:56.400 in Okay, this gentleman, this is the last question for now, 1:53:57.960 --> 1:54:02.120 my Troy um bit of a tech nerd question, because 1:54:02.400 --> 1:54:05.800 you were saying you're building out a marketplace and then 1:54:05.960 --> 1:54:10.560 Daniel living ten years ahead of us, how much is 1:54:10.680 --> 1:54:18.960 which extent is AI and blockchain part of the discussion. UM. 1:54:19.280 --> 1:54:22.360 You know, UM, some I can comment on, some I 1:54:22.439 --> 1:54:25.639 can't comment on. UM. I think it's just AI in general. 1:54:26.640 --> 1:54:32.600 You know, it's the future, you know. I think, you know, 1:54:32.720 --> 1:54:34.920 machine learning as part of what we already do in 1:54:35.120 --> 1:54:37.680 terms off you look at Discover weekly, Discover weekly as 1:54:37.760 --> 1:54:43.800 machine learning and UM and I think the more data 1:54:43.880 --> 1:54:46.640 that you get, the better than machines get. Right. So 1:54:46.800 --> 1:54:50.360 I think it's gonna play a huge role. And I 1:54:50.440 --> 1:54:52.840 don't think it necessarily has as much to do with 1:54:53.120 --> 1:54:56.400 marketplace as much as it has to do with the 1:54:56.520 --> 1:54:59.840 personalization that that that that we're talking about, and just 1:55:00.080 --> 1:55:02.600 being able to make the experience better for you when 1:55:02.640 --> 1:55:05.080 you when you come up come on the platform. But 1:55:05.200 --> 1:55:07.880 I just don't think, you know, when we kind of 1:55:07.960 --> 1:55:10.080 got a sense of where machine learning is gonna gonna 1:55:10.160 --> 1:55:13.920 take us, the marketplace was more directed towards the block chain. 1:55:14.640 --> 1:55:17.920 I can't calm it. Thank you, But you've been very 1:55:18.120 --> 1:55:20.560 open and honest. We've put you through the rigger for 1:55:20.640 --> 1:55:30.520 two hours. And by the way, I love Bob and 1:55:30.600 --> 1:55:34.040 Aga had these conversations. I got so many questions in 1:55:34.120 --> 1:55:36.400 my head, and I mean, we're off the audience. But 1:55:36.680 --> 1:55:38.960 when I say on some level, we only scratched the surface. 1:55:39.240 --> 1:55:41.720 That's supposed to Howard Stern saying you said everything, You've 1:55:41.760 --> 1:55:45.240 only said a little bit. But it's been so wonderful 1:55:45.280 --> 1:55:48.800 that you've come here and uh endured this for two hours. Troy, 1:55:48.880 --> 1:56:01.960 thanks again, thank you, thank you. Hey. This week we 1:56:02.040 --> 1:56:05.480 have a very special episode my interview with Troy Carter 1:56:05.880 --> 1:56:10.959 at the Music Media Summit in Santa Barbara, California. Yes. Today, 1:56:11.240 --> 1:56:15.480 Troy is director of Creative Services that Spotify really spearheading 1:56:15.640 --> 1:56:19.080 change in the music business. But before that he was 1:56:19.160 --> 1:56:23.640 a manager. He managed Lady Gaga, Broke Lady Gaga what 1:56:23.880 --> 1:56:27.280 John legend Back has done so many things with acts. 1:56:27.560 --> 1:56:30.880 You're gonna hear about his ups and his downs. Troy 1:56:31.000 --> 1:56:42.000 is completely honest. I know you'll love this. So, Troy, 1:56:42.440 --> 1:56:46.520 how'd you get into this crazy business? I started off 1:56:46.960 --> 1:56:50.760 just as a kid in West Philly. Uh grew up 1:56:50.840 --> 1:56:55.040 loving hip hop music and hip hop culture. Um. I 1:56:55.160 --> 1:56:58.320 wanted to be a rapper. I wanted to write graffiti. 1:56:58.400 --> 1:57:01.480 I wanted to be a breakdancer. So anything that was 1:57:02.040 --> 1:57:04.880 immersive and hip hop culture, you know, I just wanted 1:57:04.920 --> 1:57:07.440 to be around it. So you're not a woman, I 1:57:07.480 --> 1:57:10.400 can ask this question, how old are you today? Forty five? 1:57:11.760 --> 1:57:16.040 So when you get into it, MTV ruled, okay, but 1:57:16.160 --> 1:57:19.600 Philadelphia always had a heavy soul culture. So how did 1:57:19.680 --> 1:57:22.440 you first get infected by music? We didn't we didn't 1:57:22.480 --> 1:57:27.360 have cable. We only had the five channels and um 1:57:28.800 --> 1:57:32.920 and we have Friday Night videos and the USA Networkers 1:57:33.080 --> 1:57:36.280 on NBC. It was I forget which network it was. 1:57:36.520 --> 1:57:39.600 It might have been NBC. David Benjamin ran that I remember, 1:57:39.800 --> 1:57:42.000 but it was like, um, you know, it would come 1:57:42.040 --> 1:57:45.760 on late at night, and it was before music was segregated, 1:57:46.200 --> 1:57:49.760 so you would watch Rundy m C. You would watch Blondie, 1:57:50.400 --> 1:57:53.880 Michael Jackson, Prince, you know, so it was all types 1:57:53.960 --> 1:57:56.240 of music there. So it kind of exposed me to 1:57:56.920 --> 1:57:59.560 pop music, rock music. But and you know, and and 1:58:00.600 --> 1:58:02.600 like I said, and I love hip hop. So but 1:58:02.720 --> 1:58:04.760 it made me well round it from from a music 1:58:05.000 --> 1:58:06.800 was there music in your house growing up? It's a 1:58:07.000 --> 1:58:09.640 ton of music in my house growing up. So um. 1:58:10.000 --> 1:58:12.200 It was a station in Philly called w d A 1:58:12.520 --> 1:58:15.720 S and UM, which it was a local station. A 1:58:15.760 --> 1:58:18.760 guy named butter Ball ran the station and um, but 1:58:18.880 --> 1:58:22.080 it was a lot of the Philly International records, Um 1:58:22.440 --> 1:58:26.360 a lot, everything from Uh, Marvin Gaye was big in 1:58:26.440 --> 1:58:30.240 our house. Earth Wind and Fire was big. Um she 1:58:30.880 --> 1:58:33.880 Stevie Wonder. So I grew up on a lot of souls. 1:58:33.920 --> 1:58:36.600 Did you play an instrument growing up? Nope, didn't play 1:58:36.600 --> 1:58:39.400 an didn't play an instrument. Okay, so you're listening to 1:58:39.560 --> 1:58:43.000 music and you're watching Friday Night videos. At what point 1:58:43.040 --> 1:58:45.360 do you say I can do that? You know what? 1:58:45.520 --> 1:58:47.960 My my, my brother and my cousin they used to 1:58:48.200 --> 1:58:51.840 DJ and UM. So I tried DJ and and I 1:58:51.960 --> 1:58:54.840 was terrible. And then I said, um, well, maybe you 1:58:54.880 --> 1:58:57.120 know I'm gonna try to be a rapper. So I 1:58:57.360 --> 1:59:00.400 so I started rapping. And in ninth grade, me and 1:59:00.480 --> 1:59:03.640 my best friend had this idea. We met in English 1:59:03.720 --> 1:59:05.920 class and we said, you know, if if we ever 1:59:06.040 --> 1:59:08.880 meet Jazzy Jeff and Fresh Prince, they're gonna give us 1:59:08.880 --> 1:59:11.720 a record deal. So we used to go and and 1:59:11.920 --> 1:59:14.800 try to hang out at Jazzy Jeff's studio, go down 1:59:14.840 --> 1:59:18.520 there almost every single day. Um, Jeff never would let 1:59:18.600 --> 1:59:21.080 us into the studio. How many other people are hanging 1:59:21.120 --> 1:59:22.600 out other than the two of you? It just it 1:59:22.720 --> 1:59:24.520 was three. It was three of us. The group was 1:59:24.560 --> 1:59:27.960 called too too many, and um we called ourselves to 1:59:28.120 --> 1:59:30.760 too many because we only used to have enough money 1:59:31.040 --> 1:59:35.520 for one of us. So so it was three of 1:59:35.600 --> 1:59:36.920 us that used to hang out in front of it. 1:59:36.920 --> 1:59:39.320 But when you were hanging out, uh where there are 1:59:39.360 --> 1:59:41.800 also a lot of other people want to be hanging 1:59:41.840 --> 1:59:44.280 out at the studio. No, so they were all inside 1:59:44.360 --> 1:59:46.320 the studio, So we were trying to get in, and 1:59:46.440 --> 1:59:49.680 so we would only want to bees and um so so, 1:59:49.880 --> 1:59:52.880 and we sincerely had this idea like we were that 1:59:53.120 --> 1:59:56.200 naive that we were gonna meet Jazzy Jeff and Fresh 1:59:56.240 --> 1:59:58.040 Prince and they were going to give us a record deal. 1:59:58.360 --> 2:00:00.360 And my best friend he used to always he say, 2:00:00.960 --> 2:00:04.520 thoughts become things. You gotta think positive, you gotta think positive. 2:00:04.880 --> 2:00:06.800 And one day they let us in and we auditioned 2:00:06.880 --> 2:00:09.680 for him, and what happened. They gave us a record 2:00:09.760 --> 2:00:15.840 deal with a lot of experience under your belt. This 2:00:16.000 --> 2:00:18.920 is not the way the story usually goes. Do you 2:00:19.040 --> 2:00:21.600 think you were deserving of a record deal? Yes? But 2:00:21.800 --> 2:00:24.280 you know what what we found out though that we sucked, 2:00:24.480 --> 2:00:27.160 you know, so I think you know will what will 2:00:27.480 --> 2:00:32.879 we met will uh DJ Jazzy Jeff and his manager 2:00:33.000 --> 2:00:35.200 James Lasseter. It was like a whole crew of guys 2:00:35.240 --> 2:00:37.160 hanging out in the studio and we popped in our 2:00:37.240 --> 2:00:40.520 demo and you know, um and Will said, how are 2:00:40.560 --> 2:00:42.280 you guys getting home? And we said we don't know. 2:00:42.920 --> 2:00:44.600 So he said, okay, I'll give you guys a ride 2:00:44.680 --> 2:00:46.600 home and he drove drove us home that night, and 2:00:46.680 --> 2:00:49.040 he told our families, you know, dropped us off, and 2:00:49.120 --> 2:00:51.640 he said, you know, I got them and um, but 2:00:52.280 --> 2:00:55.840 we I think more than anything else, more than even 2:00:55.880 --> 2:00:59.200 the music. He respected our hustle and you know, we 2:00:59.320 --> 2:01:01.800 were silly kids and you know, so I think he 2:01:02.480 --> 2:01:05.000 liked us. So what happened? Maybe you gave you a 2:01:05.080 --> 2:01:07.640 record deal? Yes, and we signed. We signed the Jive 2:01:07.720 --> 2:01:11.200 Records through Will's production company, and we put out a 2:01:11.280 --> 2:01:13.400 record and got dropped. It was like all within, like 2:01:16.400 --> 2:01:18.240 all within like a year and a half is like 2:01:18.360 --> 2:01:21.640 the super this kind of whirl and uh, oh my god, 2:01:21.800 --> 2:01:24.320 our dreams came true to oh my god, this is 2:01:24.360 --> 2:01:26.960 the biggest disaster. My life is over. Did you get 2:01:27.000 --> 2:01:29.720 an advance? Did you get any money? Got in advance? 2:01:29.800 --> 2:01:32.520 I think we we got in advance of about I 2:01:32.600 --> 2:01:36.120 think it was like thirty five thousand dollars, which might 2:01:36.160 --> 2:01:39.240 have been thirty five million dollars. And um, you know, 2:01:39.400 --> 2:01:42.000 because we had never gotten any money like you know before, 2:01:42.640 --> 2:01:45.640 and um, and we divided it up amongst the three 2:01:45.680 --> 2:01:48.160 of us. And what did you do with your twelve 2:01:48.280 --> 2:01:52.960 grand I went straight to the car dealership like every 2:01:53.080 --> 2:01:57.960 rapper and uh and I bought a used Autie five 2:01:58.080 --> 2:02:00.760 thousand that was a stick ship if and I had 2:02:00.800 --> 2:02:04.480 never driven a stick shift before, but I wanted that car. 2:02:04.720 --> 2:02:06.600 And I think I burned out the clutch by the 2:02:06.680 --> 2:02:10.160 time I got home. So I burned through the money 2:02:10.280 --> 2:02:13.480 in the clutch within like weeks, just because you told 2:02:13.480 --> 2:02:14.880 me the story, and I don't want to forget it. 2:02:15.320 --> 2:02:18.280 You do tell a story of buying a Lexus use 2:02:18.400 --> 2:02:22.720 Lexus and getting stopped for driving while black. How long 2:02:22.920 --> 2:02:26.520 after this was? That? That was? That was after? That was? 2:02:26.920 --> 2:02:31.560 That was years later? And Um, I started promoting shows 2:02:31.640 --> 2:02:35.040 in Philadelphia, so I would promote these concerts. Um so 2:02:35.200 --> 2:02:38.720 like Notorious b I, G. Jay Z, Foxy Brown, a 2:02:38.800 --> 2:02:40.680 bunch of the New Woutang clan, a bunch of the 2:02:40.720 --> 2:02:44.320 New York rappers, and um and I bought a car 2:02:44.720 --> 2:02:47.880 off of Foxy Brown's manager, a guy named Don Poo, 2:02:48.680 --> 2:02:51.080 and um, and you know I drove the car back 2:02:51.160 --> 2:02:54.320 to Philly and that next week, no, with no exaggeration, 2:02:54.880 --> 2:02:57.600 within one week, I had gotten pulled over by the 2:02:57.680 --> 2:03:02.080 police six times within one week. But you know it 2:03:02.240 --> 2:03:04.920 was one time. You know, it was a Saturday afternoon 2:03:05.360 --> 2:03:08.680 and um, I had bags like luggage and the trunk 2:03:09.280 --> 2:03:11.600 and I pull up and up and up at Derby 2:03:11.680 --> 2:03:14.720 and I get pulled over by the police and they 2:03:14.800 --> 2:03:16.720 make me get out of the car sit on the 2:03:16.800 --> 2:03:19.280 side of the curb while they throw all of my 2:03:19.400 --> 2:03:21.840 stuff out on the street. And so where I was 2:03:21.880 --> 2:03:24.760 at it was like a shopping district. So it's a 2:03:24.840 --> 2:03:29.400 Saturday afternoon in front of the movie theater, hundreds of people. 2:03:29.720 --> 2:03:31.520 You know, it was it was the most it was 2:03:31.560 --> 2:03:34.280 probably one of the most belittling things. And then once 2:03:34.360 --> 2:03:37.000 everything checked out, you know, the cops said, you know, 2:03:37.240 --> 2:03:39.160 put your ship back in the car, and just you know, 2:03:39.280 --> 2:03:42.600 they they pull off and I'm left putting my underwear 2:03:42.800 --> 2:03:45.640 and everything else back into the you know, into into 2:03:45.720 --> 2:03:49.280 the into into my car. So you know, it's so 2:03:49.400 --> 2:03:52.920 you have an experience like that, where does that many 2:03:53.040 --> 2:03:56.200 experiences like And that's where I was going. But that 2:03:56.400 --> 2:03:58.240 was a peak experience before I was gonna ask you 2:03:58.280 --> 2:04:00.960 about previous growing up. How does that what where does 2:04:01.000 --> 2:04:04.800 that leave your viewpoint in terms of race relations? Um, 2:04:05.960 --> 2:04:08.800 you know it's complicated, right because I think you know, 2:04:09.040 --> 2:04:13.760 I think you got so it was more police relations 2:04:13.920 --> 2:04:16.840 than race relations where where where I grew up, because 2:04:16.880 --> 2:04:20.120 it was only black people where where I grew up, 2:04:20.160 --> 2:04:23.760 So it wasn't really any real racial issues. But there 2:04:23.800 --> 2:04:27.120 were the cops black or white both, so blue is 2:04:27.960 --> 2:04:31.920 what they were, right and um and and so we 2:04:32.080 --> 2:04:37.800 were harassed and and and profiled and we didn't have 2:04:37.960 --> 2:04:41.160 It wasn't a thing where when things happened in your 2:04:41.160 --> 2:04:44.840 neighborhood you called the police, you know. So, um and 2:04:44.920 --> 2:04:47.680 that and that was the that was the relationship and 2:04:47.920 --> 2:04:52.800 um so So I didn't really learn about race relations 2:04:52.960 --> 2:04:55.720 until I really started traveling to a lot of places, 2:04:56.120 --> 2:04:59.560 you know, through throughout throughout the country. And um and 2:04:59.640 --> 2:05:04.040 then that's when I really started, you know, seeing Philly 2:05:04.160 --> 2:05:07.800 is very segregated, but it was very segregated, gated by 2:05:07.840 --> 2:05:10.839 the way. So Italians lived in a certain area, Blacks 2:05:10.920 --> 2:05:12.960 lived in a certain area. Of Puerto Ricans lived in 2:05:13.000 --> 2:05:16.400 a certain area Jews lived in a certain area and 2:05:16.480 --> 2:05:20.440 it wasn't a thing where it was any real I 2:05:20.560 --> 2:05:25.600 never felt that sort of tension because everybody stayed in 2:05:25.680 --> 2:05:28.880 their own pockets for the most part, almost kind of 2:05:28.960 --> 2:05:31.960 like l a Alas racially segregated too. But when you 2:05:32.000 --> 2:05:36.640 were making the deal with DJ Jazzy Jeff and Will Smith, 2:05:37.200 --> 2:05:39.760 are you still in high school? Yeah? I dropped out 2:05:39.800 --> 2:05:42.720 of high school and then um, I dropped out in 2:05:42.760 --> 2:05:47.520 eleventh grade and my mom she put me in a 2:05:47.640 --> 2:05:52.640 program called job Corps, which is like jail meets college 2:05:52.920 --> 2:05:57.320 and um and it's and it was Import Deposit Maryland. 2:05:57.800 --> 2:05:59.840 So basically she said, if you want to do this 2:06:00.120 --> 2:06:02.680 music thing, you better come home with a piece of paper. 2:06:03.200 --> 2:06:05.920 And you know, because I just wanted to pursue music. 2:06:06.040 --> 2:06:09.000 And at eleventh grade, I quit school. Just stopping there 2:06:09.000 --> 2:06:11.120 for a second. You quit school because you were that 2:06:11.240 --> 2:06:14.080 excited about music, or you're also a poor student or 2:06:14.200 --> 2:06:18.560 an attentive student. It was I just was bored. Like 2:06:18.720 --> 2:06:21.120 I would I would go to school, check in with 2:06:21.280 --> 2:06:23.680 my advisor, hang out with my friends, and then we 2:06:24.040 --> 2:06:27.400 would go on these adventures, you know, sometimes like for 2:06:27.560 --> 2:06:30.920 me is crazy. I would end up I would end 2:06:31.000 --> 2:06:34.680 up at a library some days and just studying subjects 2:06:34.720 --> 2:06:37.480 that I wanted to study. We would have or we 2:06:37.520 --> 2:06:40.400 would have hooky parties, you know, until my mom got 2:06:40.480 --> 2:06:42.520 home from work and then we would clear the house 2:06:42.600 --> 2:06:46.080 out and um, but we every day was this sort 2:06:46.120 --> 2:06:52.000 of adventure. But school, I just I was curious about learning, 2:06:52.120 --> 2:06:54.000 but not what they would teach me in school. So 2:06:54.040 --> 2:06:56.480 how long did the job Corps program last? I stayed 2:06:56.480 --> 2:06:59.720 in job Corps for a little. I got my I 2:06:59.800 --> 2:07:02.200 got my g D and record time. It was like 2:07:02.320 --> 2:07:04.160 I was trying to get out of this place as 2:07:04.320 --> 2:07:06.560 fast as you could. How fast did you get the 2:07:07.000 --> 2:07:10.960 probably I think a little under a year maybe, And 2:07:11.040 --> 2:07:14.160 it was like, because it's the worst. This is where 2:07:14.240 --> 2:07:20.120 the courts appoint juvenile delinquents, so Virginia, New York, d C. 2:07:20.960 --> 2:07:23.120 You know, so they just put you all in one 2:07:23.200 --> 2:07:26.320 place essentially, and um, and you want to get out 2:07:26.360 --> 2:07:29.840 as fast as you can. But isn't that the place 2:07:29.960 --> 2:07:32.040 that would tend you know? Their theory on jail is 2:07:32.360 --> 2:07:34.320 you got to jail, you learn how to become a criminal. 2:07:34.760 --> 2:07:36.600 When you were in this program, did you learn how 2:07:36.640 --> 2:07:41.440 to act bad? Yes? So so job Corps it was Um, 2:07:42.800 --> 2:07:46.240 it was. It was definitely a place where you had 2:07:46.360 --> 2:07:50.360 it was many sort of many criminal imprise enterprises and 2:07:50.560 --> 2:07:53.920 clicks built around and you know, you had gang members 2:07:54.000 --> 2:07:57.400 on campus from different gangs, you know, through throughout you know, 2:07:57.520 --> 2:08:02.920 the Northeast corridor. And I think because I was always small, 2:08:03.520 --> 2:08:06.720 you know, and and you know, and I didn't get 2:08:06.840 --> 2:08:09.840 caught up and being just with the guys from Philly. 2:08:10.000 --> 2:08:11.720 So I would hang out with the New York guys, 2:08:11.800 --> 2:08:17.640 the Virginia guys and kind of stay away from any 2:08:17.760 --> 2:08:21.320 sort of the the the warring factions with with within 2:08:21.480 --> 2:08:24.160 within within job Corps. And so how long were you 2:08:24.200 --> 2:08:26.840 in job Corps overall? For for almost a year? Okay, 2:08:26.880 --> 2:08:28.240 So when you got your g D you were out. 2:08:28.400 --> 2:08:30.400 I was out. And the deal, the record deal was 2:08:30.480 --> 2:08:33.360 after you. That was after okay. So the act fails, 2:08:34.080 --> 2:08:38.080 you've blown the money, then what? Um. You know, I 2:08:38.240 --> 2:08:41.280 remember being at my grandmother's house when I got the 2:08:41.360 --> 2:08:44.120 call that they were dropping us from from the record label. 2:08:44.760 --> 2:08:48.240 And um, and I and I was in her in 2:08:48.400 --> 2:08:51.520 my grandmother's room and because I was on the phone, 2:08:51.640 --> 2:08:55.320 I got the call and it broke my heart because 2:08:55.520 --> 2:08:57.400 you know, it was something I felt like we worked 2:08:57.440 --> 2:09:00.600 really hard for UM. I really we didn't have a 2:09:00.680 --> 2:09:02.760 plan B of what I was gonna do. I was 2:09:02.880 --> 2:09:05.960 embarrassed that, you know, we had gotten this far and 2:09:06.160 --> 2:09:10.200 and and now you know, how do we tell people this? UM? 2:09:10.520 --> 2:09:16.080 And from there, I just I started. I learned a 2:09:16.160 --> 2:09:21.320 lot about the business from that. From that experience and 2:09:21.560 --> 2:09:24.800 UM and I asked James Lasseter, who was Will Smith's manager, 2:09:25.240 --> 2:09:28.240 UM could I start working with him? And I started 2:09:28.280 --> 2:09:31.040 working at the recording studio and I was his assistant. 2:09:31.120 --> 2:09:35.160 Was it pretty much just that fast? It was probably over, 2:09:35.680 --> 2:09:38.080 if I had to guess, maybe over a six month 2:09:38.280 --> 2:09:42.640 time period where I sort of transitioned into more of 2:09:42.720 --> 2:09:45.840 the business, because we ever have a straight job working 2:09:45.880 --> 2:09:48.920 at the supermarket? Any of that? Did I while I 2:09:49.040 --> 2:09:52.720 was a kid? No, While in this interim between UH 2:09:52.840 --> 2:09:54.400 getting dropped from the label and going to work for 2:09:54.440 --> 2:09:58.839 the management, I had one period where I couldn't find 2:09:59.440 --> 2:10:02.560 It was as sort of and I don't know if 2:10:02.600 --> 2:10:05.160 I even if I ever told this this story before, 2:10:05.560 --> 2:10:09.760 but UM, I remember I couldn't find a job, and 2:10:10.160 --> 2:10:12.920 I didn't have any money. I had kind of given 2:10:13.040 --> 2:10:17.040 up on on the on the record business. And at 2:10:17.120 --> 2:10:21.400 one point I've I've filed for uh for for welfare 2:10:21.640 --> 2:10:26.000 and I got I had gotten one check, and I 2:10:26.120 --> 2:10:29.280 remember giving the money from my check to my aunt 2:10:29.360 --> 2:10:32.200 because my younger cousin had just gotten killed and you know, 2:10:32.280 --> 2:10:34.720 they were doing this funeral or whatever. And then I'm like, 2:10:34.880 --> 2:10:37.880 it's just, uh that was it was just like a 2:10:38.040 --> 2:10:40.320 low point and I'm like, this isn't what I want 2:10:40.360 --> 2:10:43.960 my my life to be. And um, but as a kid, 2:10:44.040 --> 2:10:46.560 I worked at McDonald's, I worked at Burger King. I 2:10:46.680 --> 2:10:51.240 worked at um uh Olga's Kitchen, which was like a restaurant, 2:10:51.480 --> 2:10:54.280 and so I had all types of ide jobs here 2:10:54.360 --> 2:10:56.360 here and there. And so you go to work in 2:10:56.400 --> 2:10:59.440 the recording studio and for your the manager lasseter or 2:10:59.480 --> 2:11:02.960 what do you do, Um everything car getting car wash, 2:11:03.160 --> 2:11:07.920 booking sessions for DJ Jazz Jeff, carrying records for Jazz Jeff. Um. 2:11:08.320 --> 2:11:10.960 But you know, with James, when I was James's assistant, 2:11:11.120 --> 2:11:13.520 the best part of it was I used to have 2:11:13.640 --> 2:11:16.240 to run his phone calls, So I had to listen 2:11:16.320 --> 2:11:18.920 in on every phone call that he did by rolling 2:11:19.000 --> 2:11:21.760 his calls. So it kind of taught me the sort 2:11:21.800 --> 2:11:25.600 of vernacular and and sort of cadence how people talk 2:11:25.680 --> 2:11:28.760 to each other on on the phone, you know. And 2:11:29.200 --> 2:11:32.240 I think one of the biggest things was, you know, 2:11:32.360 --> 2:11:35.560 I thought everything was all business with people, but you know, 2:11:35.720 --> 2:11:38.680 just hearing them talk about people's families and kids and 2:11:38.800 --> 2:11:41.320 you know, people they would talk for ten fifteen minutes 2:11:41.400 --> 2:11:44.080 about everything else before they kind of got into this. 2:11:44.480 --> 2:11:46.680 I know, people, you're so hungry when you get into 2:11:46.680 --> 2:11:49.200 the business. You have meetings, immediately started the sales pitch. 2:11:49.440 --> 2:11:51.040 They don't really people want to know who are you, 2:11:51.480 --> 2:11:53.720 what's going on? You are a reasonable person. So so 2:11:53.880 --> 2:11:56.840 that that was good for me to learn very early 2:11:57.080 --> 2:11:59.680 because um and and James and he and I are 2:11:59.680 --> 2:12:03.400 still really really close to this day. But he he 2:12:03.600 --> 2:12:07.320 was a guy who we grew up eight blocks away 2:12:07.360 --> 2:12:09.960 from each other, like and what we didn't know My 2:12:10.120 --> 2:12:12.520 mom and his mom used to catch the bus together. 2:12:13.080 --> 2:12:16.040 And you know, he had become Jazzy Jeff and Fresh 2:12:16.120 --> 2:12:18.520 Prince's manager because he was the only guy in the 2:12:18.520 --> 2:12:21.920 neighborhood with a car, like you know, because back back 2:12:22.000 --> 2:12:24.880 then you used to have to put you know, turntables 2:12:24.960 --> 2:12:27.200 and everything and load the cars up or whatever. He 2:12:27.520 --> 2:12:30.120 was the only guy with a car, so um so 2:12:30.600 --> 2:12:33.120 seeing a guy who grew up, you know, right in 2:12:33.160 --> 2:12:37.240 our neighborhood. It kind of showed me like, okay, if 2:12:37.400 --> 2:12:40.760 James can do it and talk to like studio executives 2:12:40.800 --> 2:12:43.920 and record company heads, and it just made it less 2:12:43.960 --> 2:12:46.600 than a little less in timidity and for me. And 2:12:46.720 --> 2:12:50.160 so what was your breakthrough from being consistent gopher to 2:12:50.240 --> 2:12:55.080 the next level? Um, James? Uh So, So like in 2:12:55.200 --> 2:12:58.440 between that time, you know, I was promoting these shows 2:12:58.720 --> 2:13:01.760 and Philly and okay, just a little bit slow. You're 2:13:01.800 --> 2:13:05.560 promoting him yourself or with James. So so James h 2:13:05.720 --> 2:13:07.800 ended up moving to l A and he was doing 2:13:07.880 --> 2:13:10.720 he started during Fresh Prince of bel Air. I had 2:13:10.800 --> 2:13:12.480 come out to l A for a little bit. I 2:13:12.560 --> 2:13:15.680 went back to Philly and I was from promoting. I 2:13:15.760 --> 2:13:19.000 started off promoting like clubs, and then I would get 2:13:19.040 --> 2:13:22.000 acts to perform in the in the clubs and um, 2:13:22.520 --> 2:13:26.160 and I would collect money from guys in my neighborhood essentially, 2:13:26.320 --> 2:13:30.240 so it would be guys who have money. I said, 2:13:30.400 --> 2:13:31.880 you know, at that time, I didn't know it was 2:13:31.920 --> 2:13:35.160 called money laundering, because guys would give me money like hey, 2:13:35.240 --> 2:13:39.280 this is great. And so in reality you were money laundering. 2:13:39.320 --> 2:13:41.240 You were just unaware. I just was unaware. Now, no 2:13:41.360 --> 2:13:45.440 statue and all those guys are probably in jail. Um. 2:13:46.080 --> 2:13:50.320 But I would do these do these shows with all 2:13:50.400 --> 2:13:54.360 of the rappers. And this is before it was Live 2:13:54.520 --> 2:13:57.240 Nation and all of the big conglomerates. And it was 2:13:57.320 --> 2:14:00.320 a local guy in Philly named Larry Maggott. We used 2:14:00.320 --> 2:14:03.320 to promote the concerts in Philly if the Spectrum where 2:14:03.320 --> 2:14:06.520 the roof blew exactly and um, but they didn't do 2:14:06.640 --> 2:14:09.160 hip hop because hip hop shows, you know, and then 2:14:09.280 --> 2:14:14.120 fights and shootings and couldn't get insured. And and I 2:14:14.240 --> 2:14:16.000 was one of the crazy guys who would do it. 2:14:16.600 --> 2:14:21.800 And I've started meeting all of these people through these relationships. 2:14:21.840 --> 2:14:25.040 And I met Puffy through promoteing a notorious b I 2:14:25.320 --> 2:14:28.600 bit slower. Being a promoter is a license to go 2:14:28.680 --> 2:14:32.240 out of business, Okay, people usually like even Lior, he 2:14:32.280 --> 2:14:34.840 had one successful gig and then he lost all that 2:14:34.920 --> 2:14:36.680 money and more on the next gig. So in your 2:14:36.680 --> 2:14:39.680 a particular case, every gig I didn't think would be 2:14:39.760 --> 2:14:44.240 in the black. No, it's you know, you had really 2:14:44.400 --> 2:14:47.680 really really great nights and you had some really really 2:14:47.760 --> 2:14:50.840 really bad nights, and you know it was it was 2:14:51.040 --> 2:14:53.160 I remember It was a rap group on Jive called 2:14:53.200 --> 2:14:56.640 Foosh Nickens and Um and I used to love their music, 2:14:56.880 --> 2:14:58.520 and I think I might have been the only person 2:14:58.640 --> 2:15:02.040 that loved the music because literally, no exaggeration, I had 2:15:02.240 --> 2:15:05.560 five people show up, but I still paid him a 2:15:05.640 --> 2:15:09.960 hundred percent of the money built the relationship. It was 2:15:10.200 --> 2:15:15.360 bad shows where we were down, but every single act 2:15:15.440 --> 2:15:18.640 got paid. So but wasn't it the money of the 2:15:18.840 --> 2:15:22.120 so called criminals that was paying them? Yeah, and what 2:15:22.240 --> 2:15:24.600 of the criminals? What are the criminals say when they 2:15:24.680 --> 2:15:27.160 were losing money? They were happy to be there. It's 2:15:27.240 --> 2:15:30.720 like you're hanging out with Biggie, Okay, So it's like 2:15:34.240 --> 2:15:37.640 hanging your hanging out. So so everybody everybody and and 2:15:38.320 --> 2:15:43.800 was funny about hip hop as the streets and music. 2:15:44.000 --> 2:15:48.440 We were all contemporaries, So J and Dame and their 2:15:48.520 --> 2:15:52.400 whole crew. They were street guys from New York coming 2:15:52.440 --> 2:15:55.960 to hang out with us Big and Don Poo and 2:15:56.080 --> 2:15:58.640 Mark Pitts and all of those guys. They were street 2:15:58.680 --> 2:16:02.360 guys coming out the with us Wu Tang from Staten Island. 2:16:02.480 --> 2:16:06.040 So it was it was a thing where everybody felt 2:16:07.280 --> 2:16:12.000 it was. Everybody was really respectful of of of each 2:16:12.040 --> 2:16:15.080 other in that way because we knew what it took 2:16:15.160 --> 2:16:17.480 to get there, and and it was almost a thing 2:16:17.640 --> 2:16:21.280 where you couldn't go out the back door. It's just 2:16:21.440 --> 2:16:24.320 you know, just from a street code perspective, you can't 2:16:24.400 --> 2:16:27.000 leave out of the back door. So you got these 2:16:27.080 --> 2:16:29.880 guys to come, and this is before it was like 2:16:30.120 --> 2:16:33.199 bank wiring and all of that stuff. So you would 2:16:33.240 --> 2:16:36.320 pay them that money up front, the first pent up front, 2:16:36.680 --> 2:16:38.760 but when they showed up, you better have you know, 2:16:39.040 --> 2:16:41.959 you had to have the rest of that. You're talking 2:16:42.000 --> 2:16:44.520 about the street you know, cred and the similarity, but 2:16:44.640 --> 2:16:49.320 getting people from different communities was there also friction. Never 2:16:49.400 --> 2:16:51.600 mind the money, you know what, most of the most 2:16:51.640 --> 2:16:54.760 of the friction sort of came from just the nature 2:16:54.800 --> 2:16:58.000 of the beast of doing these type of shows and 2:16:59.360 --> 2:17:02.720 the these type of neighborhoods. Right, so it's you got 2:17:02.879 --> 2:17:07.039 rival factions that are gonna are gonna show up, and um, 2:17:07.760 --> 2:17:10.360 it could be a bad night when somebody steps on 2:17:10.520 --> 2:17:15.080 somebody's shoe and they don't say, you know, excuse me 2:17:15.200 --> 2:17:17.200 or I'm sorry, and that could end up in something 2:17:17.760 --> 2:17:21.360 or it might have been something that happened weeks before that. 2:17:21.600 --> 2:17:24.480 You know, people just happened to to to see each other. 2:17:25.080 --> 2:17:30.560 So you and um, it's par for the course. Okay. 2:17:30.600 --> 2:17:34.240 So we didn't know, to be honest though, we didn't 2:17:34.280 --> 2:17:37.760 know any different. So it wasn't you know, sort of 2:17:37.920 --> 2:17:40.440 and it wasn't strange. It wasn't like it's kind of 2:17:40.520 --> 2:17:43.840 like that movie Hoop Dreams when they celebrate the kids 2:17:43.879 --> 2:17:46.760 sixteenth birthday and they said, we're thrilled he just made 2:17:46.800 --> 2:17:50.560 it to sixty and when when I said, it took 2:17:50.600 --> 2:17:53.520 to me eighteen and twenty one in my mind with 2:17:53.720 --> 2:17:56.120 what were the ages in my mind that that I 2:17:56.200 --> 2:17:58.080 made it to eighteen and that that I made it 2:17:58.160 --> 2:18:01.440 to one And my closest cousin, he and I grew 2:18:01.520 --> 2:18:04.480 up together and we were like this. Um, he got 2:18:04.600 --> 2:18:06.800 killed when he was when he was seventeen years seventeen. 2:18:07.160 --> 2:18:11.040 What was what precipitated his death? He was out at 2:18:11.120 --> 2:18:15.840 the Chinese restaurant, Chinese Takeout, getting chicken wings, and somebody 2:18:16.000 --> 2:18:18.840 decided that they were going to rob the restaurant, drobed 2:18:19.120 --> 2:18:21.440 the guys who were at the restaurant that night, and 2:18:21.520 --> 2:18:24.240 I ended up The guy who killed them was a 2:18:24.320 --> 2:18:26.760 guy who I grew up with, and we went to 2:18:26.800 --> 2:18:29.280 school with and everything else. He didn't even know it 2:18:29.400 --> 2:18:32.960 was my cousin. So um and yeah, ended up killing him. 2:18:33.560 --> 2:18:36.120 Did that guy go to jail? Yeah, they went to jail. Okay, 2:18:36.200 --> 2:18:41.560 So in your pursuits you meet Puffy and how do 2:18:41.600 --> 2:18:45.840 you maximize that relationship? Well, Puff, Um, it was. It 2:18:45.959 --> 2:18:48.960 was a concert that I was throwing with Notorious b 2:18:49.080 --> 2:18:52.000 I g Um and Wootang and a few other acts 2:18:52.120 --> 2:18:55.240 on Penn's campus and um, and I got a call 2:18:55.480 --> 2:19:00.520 that Notorious Notorious b I g was Um, he wasn't 2:19:00.520 --> 2:19:02.440 gonna make it down in time for the show because 2:19:02.440 --> 2:19:05.119 he was shooting the video for Big Papa at that time. 2:19:05.840 --> 2:19:08.760 And I get into an argument with Mark Pitts on 2:19:08.800 --> 2:19:11.720 the phone, that turns into an argument with Puffy on 2:19:11.800 --> 2:19:15.720 the phone and m and but yet they still came down. 2:19:16.080 --> 2:19:18.720 The show was over. You know, we had to refund 2:19:18.800 --> 2:19:22.200 a few people, but he didn't make it. And but 2:19:22.320 --> 2:19:26.640 they told Biggs manager and make sure Troy gets his 2:19:26.720 --> 2:19:30.000 money back. Um, we'll give you another show. And we 2:19:30.080 --> 2:19:32.480 were hanging out that night. I was having an after 2:19:32.600 --> 2:19:35.760 party and Puff was holding court and you know, v 2:19:35.879 --> 2:19:38.800 I p section and you know I'm talking and I said, 2:19:38.879 --> 2:19:40.480 you know what you know, I want to come work 2:19:40.560 --> 2:19:43.000 for you. And he said, all right, well your first 2:19:43.120 --> 2:19:45.039 job is get me that girl from behind the bar 2:19:48.080 --> 2:19:50.320 and um, and I got puffed the girl from behind 2:19:50.360 --> 2:19:52.600 the bar. And then a couple of weeks later I 2:19:52.720 --> 2:19:56.360 was interning that bad Boy. Then he moved to New York. No, 2:19:56.560 --> 2:19:59.400 I would commute three days a week. I would commute 2:19:59.480 --> 2:20:04.520 on p there Pan trailways. Um seven do I think 2:20:04.560 --> 2:20:08.320 it was seven dollars each way Peter Pan trailways from 2:20:08.440 --> 2:20:12.080 Philly to uh to uh To to New York. And 2:20:12.280 --> 2:20:15.959 so you're interning, you're obviously, you know, doing your best 2:20:16.000 --> 2:20:18.880 to do a good job. What's your break a bad boy? 2:20:19.400 --> 2:20:22.879 You know. I didn't get a break at Bad Boy, Um, 2:20:23.040 --> 2:20:26.360 you know, but what I did get was an education, 2:20:26.959 --> 2:20:29.480 you know Puff and even still to this day, you 2:20:29.600 --> 2:20:32.640 get a sort of master class and hustle and just 2:20:32.879 --> 2:20:39.040 seeing this guy operate that company just off of like 2:20:39.160 --> 2:20:44.080 I would see Puff at the club at night, and 2:20:44.200 --> 2:20:47.360 then I would see Puff in the office in the morning, 2:20:47.879 --> 2:20:51.400 and then at he had his recording studio called Daddy's House, 2:20:51.480 --> 2:20:53.640 where he you know, would be where he would make records. 2:20:54.080 --> 2:20:56.760 So you know, it just it was this sort of 2:20:56.920 --> 2:21:02.160 NonStop thing, but this sort of of masterful dance of 2:21:02.280 --> 2:21:06.160 being able to navigate sort of hip hop culture in 2:21:06.240 --> 2:21:10.440 the streets with corporate America and uh so that it 2:21:10.560 --> 2:21:12.560 just was that master class. So I didn't get a 2:21:12.680 --> 2:21:16.600 break in terms of uh, you know, I made it. 2:21:16.840 --> 2:21:23.440 It was you got cursed out, you got um worked 2:21:24.000 --> 2:21:27.040 to death, and you just wanted more of it, like 2:21:27.280 --> 2:21:28.960 you know, I just I couldn't get enough of it? 2:21:29.760 --> 2:21:34.720 And what was your next journey after that? Um? Afterwards, 2:21:34.800 --> 2:21:37.440 I started, UM. I went back to work for James 2:21:37.560 --> 2:21:41.160 Lasseter in in l a And UM, he and Will 2:21:41.240 --> 2:21:45.000 started a movie production company called Overbrook Entertainment, and UM 2:21:45.040 --> 2:21:48.600 so I was James's assistant and I did that and 2:21:48.800 --> 2:21:51.640 UM and James ended up firing me. I think after 2:21:51.760 --> 2:21:53.720 like a year and a half he ended up firing 2:21:53.800 --> 2:21:57.039 me and um sending me back to Philly. And then 2:21:57.120 --> 2:21:59.440 that's when my that was my big break when he 2:21:59.600 --> 2:22:01.640 fired did you because you've done a good job? I 2:22:01.680 --> 2:22:04.000 didn't you do? Or he said I'm colding you back, 2:22:04.120 --> 2:22:07.240 keeping you here. Um I wish I wish he was 2:22:07.320 --> 2:22:10.280 holding me back, keeping me there. I was arrogant as 2:22:10.360 --> 2:22:13.760 you can you could get. UM, I thought I knew everything, 2:22:14.640 --> 2:22:19.320 and James like it was no humility. And I remember, 2:22:19.640 --> 2:22:21.120 you know, I didn't have a I didn't have a 2:22:21.240 --> 2:22:23.400 car when I living in l A. And if you 2:22:23.520 --> 2:22:25.040 live in l A, you know how hard it is 2:22:25.120 --> 2:22:27.600 not to have a car. And um, and at one 2:22:27.640 --> 2:22:30.200 point I was dating this girl and um, and I 2:22:30.240 --> 2:22:33.959 would take the car service to go visit this girl. 2:22:34.440 --> 2:22:36.400 But and at the end of the week, I would 2:22:36.440 --> 2:22:39.160 just pay the general manager of the company when I 2:22:39.240 --> 2:22:41.920 got my check, here's the car service, you know, here's 2:22:41.920 --> 2:22:44.440 the money for the car service. And for some reason, 2:22:44.680 --> 2:22:48.440 she told James Troy has been using the car service. 2:22:49.320 --> 2:22:53.760 And he came in the office and aired me out 2:22:53.959 --> 2:22:56.960 and you know, in front of everybody, and told me, 2:22:57.520 --> 2:23:00.480 you know, he kicked me out of California. And he said, 2:23:00.480 --> 2:23:02.800 you know, he fired me on the spot, kicked me 2:23:02.879 --> 2:23:05.280 out of California. Me and him get into this huge 2:23:05.280 --> 2:23:09.240 shouting match in his office, and Will and Jada actually 2:23:09.360 --> 2:23:13.640 walked in like right after, and um, and Will said, 2:23:13.720 --> 2:23:17.080 you know what, go back to Philly. You know, we 2:23:17.280 --> 2:23:20.000 we'll give you a severance, but go back to Philly, 2:23:20.640 --> 2:23:23.119 and you know, get get yourself together. And I went 2:23:23.200 --> 2:23:26.200 back to Philly with my tail between my legs and 2:23:26.320 --> 2:23:29.320 what would would you start up in Philly? UM? I 2:23:29.800 --> 2:23:32.520 started up UM. It was it was a company called 2:23:32.600 --> 2:23:36.320 Black Friday that guys from my neighborhood that I knew. 2:23:36.560 --> 2:23:42.880 They basically UM started this management company. It was like 2:23:42.920 --> 2:23:47.039 a management production company. And they asked if I would 2:23:47.160 --> 2:23:50.000 come and basically run the company for him? Can I could? 2:23:50.000 --> 2:23:51.959 I could? I build it and started up for him 2:23:52.520 --> 2:23:57.080 and Eve was even Beanie Seagull where the clients there. 2:23:57.840 --> 2:24:04.320 And it was a hot mess and I ended up. 2:24:04.560 --> 2:24:06.600 You know, after a while, I'm like, I can't do 2:24:06.720 --> 2:24:11.320 this anymore. It was a lot of disorganization. One one 2:24:11.440 --> 2:24:14.600 client UM came into the office. One day, I got 2:24:14.720 --> 2:24:17.880 a call that the client got into an argument with 2:24:18.160 --> 2:24:21.039 one of the guys who owned the company and start 2:24:21.120 --> 2:24:24.000 shooting at him in the office. And that was it 2:24:24.160 --> 2:24:26.600 for me and I and I ended up that and 2:24:27.240 --> 2:24:30.200 I left at that point, and Eve was leaving and 2:24:30.360 --> 2:24:32.840 she had enough and she asked if I would help 2:24:32.879 --> 2:24:34.840 her find the manager. I took her to meet with 2:24:35.440 --> 2:24:38.480 Chris Lighty a few other managers, and then she asked 2:24:38.520 --> 2:24:41.280 if I would do it. Okay, so you do it 2:24:42.200 --> 2:24:44.960 and tell me how you ultimately get to there to 2:24:45.040 --> 2:24:49.520 making your deal with Sanctuary. So I started managing eve UM. 2:24:50.560 --> 2:24:53.080 I ended up signing a few other clients, me and 2:24:53.280 --> 2:24:56.680 up my partner at that time, Jay Irving. We built 2:24:56.720 --> 2:24:59.480 this company called Irving Wonder in Philadelphia, which was like 2:24:59.600 --> 2:25:03.600 you know, utique management company and UM. And we got 2:25:03.720 --> 2:25:07.279 a call from Matthew Knowles one day and Matthew asked 2:25:07.440 --> 2:25:11.120 if we would I want to sell our company to Sanctuary. 2:25:11.200 --> 2:25:13.760 He had just sold this company to Sanctuary. They were 2:25:13.800 --> 2:25:18.640 looking to build their urban music division and and he 2:25:20.760 --> 2:25:23.600 basically told me how much money? And I said, when 2:25:23.720 --> 2:25:27.480 where do I sign? Because I never, like, I had 2:25:27.520 --> 2:25:29.360 never seen that type of money in my life. So 2:25:30.000 --> 2:25:32.119 you know, without asking, I'm like, let's go, let's get 2:25:32.160 --> 2:25:35.039 this done. And how did it end with Sanctuary? Terrible? 2:25:36.080 --> 2:25:37.920 But you kept the money right? Yeah? But you know 2:25:38.040 --> 2:25:40.320 the thing is what I what I learned about Sanctuary. 2:25:40.400 --> 2:25:44.200 Like with the Sanctuary situation, I was so focused on 2:25:44.760 --> 2:25:48.160 the exit and the money that I was that it 2:25:48.360 --> 2:25:52.240 blinded me from all of the red flags that I 2:25:52.320 --> 2:25:55.800 should have noticed as they were doing their diligence on us. 2:25:56.200 --> 2:25:58.240 We should have been doing there our diligence on them, 2:25:58.640 --> 2:26:03.040 on them and um. And it just wasn't that. We 2:26:03.160 --> 2:26:06.160 went from a really cool culture at our company, like 2:26:06.320 --> 2:26:09.880 actually Jay Irvan and and his wife. UM, that's who 2:26:09.920 --> 2:26:12.320 I'm up here in Santa Barbara with this weekend. You know. 2:26:12.480 --> 2:26:16.080 It was me and my best friend. We built this company. 2:26:16.200 --> 2:26:19.160 We hung out every day, We hung out with our employees, 2:26:19.200 --> 2:26:21.360 we hung out with our artists. And then we sold 2:26:21.440 --> 2:26:25.640 this company the Sanctuary and the culture it just with 2:26:25.840 --> 2:26:30.360 the culture was terrible and um and the leadership wasn't great. 2:26:31.120 --> 2:26:35.200 Um and I'm just being honesty. They were terrible people. 2:26:35.840 --> 2:26:37.760 The you know, the guy running the company was a 2:26:37.879 --> 2:26:42.000 terrible person and he ended up we you know, we 2:26:42.160 --> 2:26:46.680 were trying to buy our company back. And because you know, I, 2:26:46.959 --> 2:26:49.160 like I said, I grew up like I love the 2:26:49.280 --> 2:26:52.280 music business. I love what I do. Um, I grew 2:26:52.400 --> 2:26:54.680 up loving this business. I grew up loving the music. 2:26:55.200 --> 2:26:57.440 And then it felt like I didn't want to go 2:26:57.520 --> 2:26:59.240 to work in the morning. I didn't want to go 2:26:59.320 --> 2:27:01.520 into the office is and I wanted to buy the 2:27:01.600 --> 2:27:05.200 company back. And so I started this negotiation to buy 2:27:05.280 --> 2:27:09.680 the company back, and we couldn't reach a deal. And 2:27:09.800 --> 2:27:12.720 then somebody told me, who works in finance. They said, 2:27:14.800 --> 2:27:17.360 hold out for a little bit longer, because if you 2:27:17.520 --> 2:27:19.560 hold out, I don't even think they're gonna be able 2:27:19.600 --> 2:27:22.280 to make salary. They're not even gonna make your your 2:27:22.440 --> 2:27:27.960 your uh, your paycheck. So I'm walking into a restaurant 2:27:28.000 --> 2:27:31.600 and I never forget it's on my birthday. I'm walking 2:27:31.640 --> 2:27:35.760 into a restaurant, and my attorney at that time, David Landy, 2:27:35.840 --> 2:27:37.520 calls me up and he said, you know, are you 2:27:37.640 --> 2:27:39.760 by yourself? I said no, but I can walk out. 2:27:40.040 --> 2:27:42.760 I said, what's up? He said, Sanctuary. I just got 2:27:42.879 --> 2:27:46.600 a fact from Sanctuary and they're suing you and Jay 2:27:47.080 --> 2:27:50.720 for calls. I said, what's the calls? He said, they 2:27:50.760 --> 2:27:54.480 don't have a cause. And what we found out was 2:27:54.600 --> 2:27:57.640 the cause was they couldn't make our paychecks and they 2:27:57.680 --> 2:28:00.680 didn't want to pay us out. And and you know, 2:28:00.800 --> 2:28:04.640 our business is very rare when anybody in our business 2:28:04.680 --> 2:28:11.000 gets suit for calls. And to have that on the 2:28:11.240 --> 2:28:14.880 front cover of a variety, you know, magazine or whatever, 2:28:15.640 --> 2:28:19.080 and to know that, like it just was they just 2:28:19.200 --> 2:28:22.480 with terrible people, and we ended up being able to 2:28:23.040 --> 2:28:24.720 you know, they ended up having to pay us out. 2:28:25.440 --> 2:28:27.720 And you know, I, you know, I ended up starting 2:28:27.760 --> 2:28:30.400 a new company, but it was a valuable lesson and 2:28:31.200 --> 2:28:36.760 culture and people and that the new company is atom Factory. 2:28:36.840 --> 2:28:39.360 Was Adom Factory until the audience Why you named it 2:28:39.440 --> 2:28:43.080 atom Factory? Um? The idea what Adom Factory was? You know? 2:28:43.360 --> 2:28:46.080 Thinking about it was something I wanted to do, something 2:28:46.320 --> 2:28:49.400 small but yet powerful, and you know, and and and 2:28:49.480 --> 2:28:52.440 the name Adam just kind of some summarized it for me, 2:28:52.600 --> 2:28:56.360 like you know, um, you know, because I never wanted, 2:28:56.520 --> 2:28:59.360 you know, a talent roster with a hundred people on 2:28:59.440 --> 2:29:03.119 the roster. But how can I build a small company 2:29:03.200 --> 2:29:07.680 but that still has some gravitizing importance? So how do 2:29:07.760 --> 2:29:11.560 you sign Leady Gaga? Um? Got guy I met Gay 2:29:11.640 --> 2:29:14.879 got through a guy named Vincent Herbert and Vincent Um 2:29:14.959 --> 2:29:17.520 I had known since I was coming up in the business. 2:29:18.000 --> 2:29:19.800 And he caught me up one day and he said, 2:29:19.959 --> 2:29:23.200 I got this girl who you have to meet. Um, 2:29:23.480 --> 2:29:26.119 I'm flying her from New York tomorrow and I'm gonna 2:29:26.160 --> 2:29:29.520 bring her by. And you know, he showed up and 2:29:30.280 --> 2:29:32.960 she walked in with you know, these big sunglasses on 2:29:33.200 --> 2:29:38.040 and you know, no pants and fishnet stockings and played 2:29:39.480 --> 2:29:44.280 hit after hit. Um, it was what what I loved. 2:29:44.320 --> 2:29:48.080 What I loved was it looked like she landed from 2:29:48.120 --> 2:29:54.280 another planet. But she owned it. And I told Vince, 2:29:54.280 --> 2:29:56.800 I said, you gotta bring her back, like just promised 2:29:56.840 --> 2:29:59.160 me you'll you'll bring her back. And a few months 2:29:59.240 --> 2:30:02.080 later he he actually he lived up to that promise 2:30:02.120 --> 2:30:04.600 and he bought her back. Now, when you signed or 2:30:04.680 --> 2:30:07.520 did anybody else want her? No, she had she had 2:30:07.600 --> 2:30:12.360 just gotten dropped from deaf Jam. Um, probably a few 2:30:12.400 --> 2:30:15.400 months prioritized meeting, she had gotten dropped from deaf Jam 2:30:16.160 --> 2:30:19.200 and um, you know she kind of I went to 2:30:19.280 --> 2:30:22.200 West Virginia for a while and like spent some time 2:30:22.240 --> 2:30:26.280 with a grandmother and um, and so she was like, 2:30:26.440 --> 2:30:28.720 you know, it was one of those things with where 2:30:28.760 --> 2:30:31.040 you had nothing to lose, like you know I had. 2:30:31.120 --> 2:30:34.840 I was going through a terrible time financially. You know, 2:30:34.959 --> 2:30:37.800 this was like two thousand and seven when we met, 2:30:38.000 --> 2:30:41.520 going like so right, you know, I had invested everything 2:30:41.600 --> 2:30:45.320 into this new company, even fired me right before that, 2:30:45.760 --> 2:30:49.400 and um, and you know my wife and I, you know, 2:30:49.480 --> 2:30:51.640 we were losing our house. You know, her and my 2:30:51.760 --> 2:30:55.000 mother in law literally pawned their wedding rings that to 2:30:55.120 --> 2:30:59.480 save our house. They you know, our kids were getting kicked. 2:30:59.520 --> 2:31:02.440 You know, we couldn't pay school tuition or anything like that, 2:31:03.160 --> 2:31:09.920 so financially I was completely wiped. Um and when Gaga came, 2:31:10.160 --> 2:31:13.280 that was like the only thing I had to work 2:31:13.360 --> 2:31:18.840 on essentially, and she had just gotten dropped. And I 2:31:18.920 --> 2:31:21.200 think it was one of those things where is you 2:31:21.360 --> 2:31:24.880 have nothing to lose, and like you gotta make it work. 2:31:25.440 --> 2:31:28.360 And we both really really had to make it work. 2:31:28.560 --> 2:31:30.080 And what did you tell her to get her to 2:31:30.160 --> 2:31:33.440 sign with you? You know, I took her to a 2:31:33.560 --> 2:31:41.000 fancy restaurant called Spaghetti Warehouse. We went to Spaghetti Warehouse, 2:31:44.400 --> 2:31:48.640 I swear to you, and um and uh, and we 2:31:48.800 --> 2:31:51.120 just talked. I think we spent like a couple of 2:31:51.200 --> 2:31:56.360 hours together. And then I remember I think it was 2:31:57.440 --> 2:32:00.560 I think it was. Wasn't it Layla's birthday? Baby? Yeah, 2:32:00.959 --> 2:32:04.920 and because I remember it was my daughter's birthday and um, 2:32:05.320 --> 2:32:08.560 and it's and I had to stop for cupcakes on 2:32:08.680 --> 2:32:12.400 the way home. So it's literally me and Gaga standing 2:32:12.480 --> 2:32:16.800 on um little Santa monicat like sprinkles cupcakes. Remember it 2:32:16.879 --> 2:32:19.600 used to be like a line outside the door, and like, 2:32:19.800 --> 2:32:24.040 you know, she's you know, looking like Gaga on like 2:32:24.480 --> 2:32:29.160 in front at Sprinkles and we're but we hit it 2:32:29.240 --> 2:32:33.080 off right away, like we like it was. We got 2:32:33.160 --> 2:32:37.200 each other right away. And um, I believed in in 2:32:37.360 --> 2:32:42.520 her vision and she trusted me with everything, and we 2:32:42.920 --> 2:32:46.680 we you know, and and but a few things like 2:32:47.840 --> 2:32:54.800 this is what's interesting, Like like a lot of times, 2:32:54.879 --> 2:32:57.800 you know, you you you hear, you know, the sort 2:32:57.840 --> 2:33:00.840 of romantic stories about you know, how every thing happened 2:33:00.920 --> 2:33:06.440 or whatever. But you know, Vincent Herbert had just walked 2:33:06.480 --> 2:33:10.640 away from his record label, UM that he had with 2:33:10.720 --> 2:33:13.160 a guy Barry Hankerson. So Vincent kind of left his 2:33:13.240 --> 2:33:16.320 record label behind. So this was his new thing and 2:33:16.400 --> 2:33:20.040 Goga was the only thing he had. Jimmy was in 2:33:20.120 --> 2:33:23.960 the middle of his divorce at that time, UM, and 2:33:24.560 --> 2:33:28.160 you know, Interscope was probably this was probably one of 2:33:28.240 --> 2:33:31.080 Interscope's tough as years, you know, during during that time 2:33:31.160 --> 2:33:36.160 period or whatever. And so Jimmy was kind of doing 2:33:36.280 --> 2:33:40.160 his thing and left us alone on the guy got projects, 2:33:40.320 --> 2:33:43.840 so basically kind of gave us carte blanche. So we 2:33:43.959 --> 2:33:46.800 were kind of running doing our own thing. So she 2:33:47.000 --> 2:33:50.320 was making these records and he was focused on Pussycat Dolls. 2:33:50.800 --> 2:33:54.560 So every record that she would make Jimmy was taking 2:33:54.600 --> 2:33:57.080 the records like you know, and she would give records 2:33:57.120 --> 2:34:01.000 to Pussycat Dolls or Rodney jerk And I remember one 2:34:01.120 --> 2:34:04.720 record that you know, uh, she had written with Rodney 2:34:04.800 --> 2:34:08.520 Jerkins and she wanted it for herself and Rodney's like, no, 2:34:08.840 --> 2:34:11.000 she's a new artist. I'm not giving her this record. 2:34:11.120 --> 2:34:13.960 I need to get this record to Britney Spears. Brittany 2:34:14.080 --> 2:34:16.199 is you know, she's a superstar. We're giving this record 2:34:16.280 --> 2:34:20.920 the Britney Spears and Goga was pissed. Um. The record 2:34:21.040 --> 2:34:27.360 was called Telephone, so of course, you know, Gaga becomes 2:34:27.440 --> 2:34:29.840 gay guy. And Brittany had recorded the record as a 2:34:29.920 --> 2:34:33.640 demo and she's like, nope, get that record back. And 2:34:33.800 --> 2:34:36.280 she put Beyonce on that record, and that record became, 2:34:36.720 --> 2:34:39.039 you know, a number one hit. But she couldn't keep 2:34:39.040 --> 2:34:41.600 a record because everybody would take it because she wasn't 2:34:41.640 --> 2:34:44.640 a big star. But I started keeping making sure we 2:34:44.680 --> 2:34:48.600 could keep those records. So just Dance we kept, which 2:34:48.720 --> 2:34:51.920 became a number one record. Um, Love Game we kept 2:34:52.000 --> 2:34:54.760 became a number one run record. Poker Face we kept 2:34:54.840 --> 2:34:57.800 that one became a number one record, and um so 2:34:58.000 --> 2:35:00.640 it just was really fighting and and sort of a 2:35:00.760 --> 2:35:07.720 blocking and tackling. We'll take a quick break and come 2:35:07.760 --> 2:35:10.560 back with more of my conversation with director of Creative 2:35:10.600 --> 2:35:14.800 Services that Spotify, Troy Carter, recorded live at the Music 2:35:14.920 --> 2:35:20.160 Media Summit in Santa Barbara, California. This week, I'm speaking 2:35:20.240 --> 2:35:24.400 with Troy Carter. Recently I interviewed Brian Fogel, who created 2:35:24.480 --> 2:35:28.440 Oscar winning documentary LUs. Be the first to hear next 2:35:28.480 --> 2:35:31.960 week's episode by subscribing to the podcast I'm tuned in 2:35:32.320 --> 2:35:36.080 Apple Podcast or your podcast Apple Troys. While you're there, 2:35:36.600 --> 2:35:40.000 be sure to rate and review the podcast. Okay, let's 2:35:40.040 --> 2:35:43.960 get back to my conversation with Troy Carter. Now. The 2:35:44.080 --> 2:35:47.200 story is she was making dance music at a time 2:35:47.280 --> 2:35:50.200 dance music was not on the chart or on the radio, 2:35:50.640 --> 2:35:53.440 and the interscope went to the wall for you. Is 2:35:53.520 --> 2:35:56.320 that true? Yeah, it was. We were getting a lot 2:35:56.400 --> 2:35:59.400 of pushback from Top forty radio because they thought that 2:35:59.520 --> 2:36:02.119 it was to electronic because it was sort of four 2:36:02.160 --> 2:36:04.680 on the floor and read one who was the music 2:36:04.760 --> 2:36:08.480 producer was just um, you know, he came out of Sweden, 2:36:08.640 --> 2:36:10.840 so it was you know, sort of Swedish sound at 2:36:10.879 --> 2:36:15.240 that time, and we didn't take no fin answer, but 2:36:15.440 --> 2:36:19.160 neither did Brenda Romano, who was working Top forty radio 2:36:19.240 --> 2:36:22.360 at that time, and so she just kept knocking on 2:36:22.480 --> 2:36:27.040 those doors. And but the Internet and being able to 2:36:27.200 --> 2:36:29.760 kind of build that story and come back to radio 2:36:30.440 --> 2:36:34.720 was really important. So we were building audiences um on 2:36:35.080 --> 2:36:38.279 YouTube and you know, and building this sort of international 2:36:38.400 --> 2:36:41.879 following on YouTube. We were doing the same thing on Twitter, 2:36:42.080 --> 2:36:44.880 We were doing the same thing um on a couple 2:36:45.000 --> 2:36:48.560 other platforms. And then NAT started translating into call out 2:36:48.640 --> 2:36:51.000 at radio so they would put the record on and 2:36:51.080 --> 2:36:53.440 kids already knew the record. You know, the radio was 2:36:53.600 --> 2:36:56.480 late at that time because kids were already familiar with 2:36:56.560 --> 2:36:59.040 the record. Sort of what's happening with Spotify now, but 2:36:59.400 --> 2:37:03.440 saving that for a little bit later. Okay, Gaga blows up. 2:37:04.920 --> 2:37:08.760 It must be an amazing learning experience for you. Yeah, 2:37:08.959 --> 2:37:11.680 you know, it's It's what I realized was, you know, 2:37:11.879 --> 2:37:15.920 it's levels you know, and the business and its levels 2:37:15.959 --> 2:37:19.640 in life, you know, um, because with Eve, Eve had 2:37:19.680 --> 2:37:25.640 a wildly successful career for hip hop artists, you know, 2:37:25.800 --> 2:37:28.320 and and even you know, we did her TV show 2:37:28.360 --> 2:37:30.840 and it lasted for you know a few years, but 2:37:31.000 --> 2:37:33.760 you know, that was primarily you know, it was African 2:37:33.840 --> 2:37:39.000 American audiences that was consuming you know, the the TV show, 2:37:39.600 --> 2:37:42.280 So we weren't We didn't have that level of pop 2:37:42.360 --> 2:37:46.280 exposure at at at that time. So and I had 2:37:46.360 --> 2:37:49.960 glimpses of it through Sanctuary because Destiny's Child was you know, 2:37:50.120 --> 2:37:53.040 managed by Sanctuary and a few other pop acts, but 2:37:53.160 --> 2:37:57.199 I wasn't personally exposed to it. So with Gaga, only 2:37:57.320 --> 2:38:00.879 had experience as a hip hop manager, so I kind 2:38:00.920 --> 2:38:03.200 of managed her like a hip hop act. So we 2:38:03.320 --> 2:38:06.640 were doing three shows a night. Um, you know, the 2:38:06.760 --> 2:38:10.040 sound was terrible half the time. You know, you know rappers, 2:38:10.120 --> 2:38:12.039 you know they're holding the micro like this or whatever, 2:38:12.640 --> 2:38:15.440 and um, so we didn't know sound. And um, you 2:38:15.520 --> 2:38:19.160 know Jimmy Iveen. She was opening for New Kids on 2:38:19.240 --> 2:38:21.680 the Block. And I remember Jimmy pulling me to the 2:38:21.800 --> 2:38:25.120 side after the first show at Staples Center and he said, 2:38:25.959 --> 2:38:29.160 the show was great, sound was terrible. This is what 2:38:29.280 --> 2:38:31.360 you need to do to fix the sound. You know, 2:38:31.560 --> 2:38:33.280 this is the guy you need to call to fix 2:38:33.360 --> 2:38:36.760 the sound. And he taught me, you know, sort of 2:38:37.320 --> 2:38:40.320 sonically with pop acts as supposed to sound like. And 2:38:40.400 --> 2:38:44.320 then I met Arthur Fogel and Michael Rapino, and they 2:38:44.440 --> 2:38:47.160 taught me what pop acts as supposed to tour like, 2:38:47.840 --> 2:38:49.880 you know, So it was it was I was I 2:38:49.959 --> 2:38:52.760 felt like I was in school learning a lot of 2:38:52.800 --> 2:38:56.160 this stuff. So where I knew this sort of basic 2:38:56.800 --> 2:39:01.960 um fundamentals of protect your client with everything you have. 2:39:03.000 --> 2:39:07.480 And so my instincts were worked, you know, in terms 2:39:07.600 --> 2:39:12.039 of of protecting a client, but in terms of global 2:39:12.200 --> 2:39:16.400 touring and making and building a global superstar. I've gone 2:39:16.440 --> 2:39:19.280 to countries I had never gone to, and you know, 2:39:19.440 --> 2:39:22.560 it just was a whole new experience. And at any 2:39:22.640 --> 2:39:25.240 time in the height of her career did another manager 2:39:25.280 --> 2:39:27.640 try to steal your act all the time? You know. 2:39:27.720 --> 2:39:31.240 I remember I remember getting a call from UM just 2:39:31.480 --> 2:39:34.520 this is as she was really this is as the 2:39:34.600 --> 2:39:39.160 first single was taken off, and her lawyer, Um, her 2:39:39.240 --> 2:39:47.320 first lawyer called up and and said, um, uh, I'm 2:39:47.360 --> 2:39:50.960 not even gonna mention him. Uh big, big, big manager 2:39:51.120 --> 2:39:53.720 calls calls up and he wants to take a meeting 2:39:54.520 --> 2:39:57.280 uh with with with uh And this is why I 2:39:57.400 --> 2:40:01.680 love her. By the way, big manager called up the 2:40:01.840 --> 2:40:06.680 lawyer tried to set the meeting up and and like 2:40:06.840 --> 2:40:12.480 around me and she called me, Wow, she called me, 2:40:13.480 --> 2:40:20.320 and um, she said fire him the lawyer. Yeah, that's great, 2:40:20.600 --> 2:40:24.920 But eventually it does end with Stephanie. Now we've talked 2:40:24.959 --> 2:40:26.560 about that. But for the people who don't know the 2:40:26.640 --> 2:40:29.800 story in retrospect, I know there was an issue she 2:40:29.879 --> 2:40:33.680 had to do boyfriend, etcetera. Did you see it coming? No, 2:40:33.920 --> 2:40:36.160 you know, I don't think you ever see that ce 2:40:36.480 --> 2:40:40.640 C C that type of thing coming. And um, and 2:40:40.760 --> 2:40:43.160 you know, and and of course you know I can't 2:40:43.200 --> 2:40:46.040 get into any of the specifics or anything like that, 2:40:46.360 --> 2:40:49.400 you know, Um, but and I and I don't want 2:40:49.440 --> 2:40:53.480 to sit here and bullsit you and and and you know, 2:40:53.840 --> 2:40:56.520 say any sort of fake story. But you know, the 2:40:56.640 --> 2:41:01.439 reality is, you know, she and I had a credible relationship, 2:41:01.640 --> 2:41:04.320 like and even to this day, I still I still 2:41:04.440 --> 2:41:07.760 love her despite anything that's happened with her. H No, 2:41:08.000 --> 2:41:10.920 we don't we know contact with her right now. And um, 2:41:11.080 --> 2:41:16.119 but you know, I think it's hard to go through 2:41:16.879 --> 2:41:20.119 that sort of period of time and and where you're 2:41:20.440 --> 2:41:23.160 pretty much living on a bus together. You know, you're 2:41:23.200 --> 2:41:28.040 traveling the world together. You know, UM, just down to 2:41:28.440 --> 2:41:31.760 like you know, birth of kids and you know everything, 2:41:32.600 --> 2:41:36.600 so where and and it's not like I had a 2:41:36.680 --> 2:41:39.520 big roster, you know, for the first when I was 2:41:39.600 --> 2:41:41.760 managing GOG. I think for the at least for the 2:41:41.800 --> 2:41:44.800 first couple of years, she was really the only client 2:41:44.920 --> 2:41:46.560 that I was that I was focused on, So she 2:41:46.640 --> 2:41:52.560 and I were really tight. So I wouldn't yet So 2:41:53.120 --> 2:41:55.840 when when it when it comes, I don't think you've 2:41:55.840 --> 2:41:59.680 ever prepared for it, you know, so and and it's emotional. 2:42:00.440 --> 2:42:04.240 You go through the sort of the motions of hurt 2:42:04.360 --> 2:42:07.280 and anger, and and and and everything else or whatever. 2:42:07.720 --> 2:42:10.680 But the reality is, you know, I wouldn't. I wouldn't 2:42:11.040 --> 2:42:12.960 give it back for the world because I think it 2:42:13.040 --> 2:42:17.000 was an incredible experience. She helped my career just as 2:42:17.080 --> 2:42:19.520 much as I helped her career. We both came up 2:42:19.560 --> 2:42:25.280 and in the business together, and um, and life happens, 2:42:25.400 --> 2:42:28.200 man like you know, life, life happened. Now, since you've 2:42:28.280 --> 2:42:31.440 managed her, stop manager, she has not had a hit. 2:42:32.080 --> 2:42:36.000 She's had very successful road business. First with Tony Bennet, 2:42:36.360 --> 2:42:39.720 she's brought If you were to manager again, what do 2:42:39.800 --> 2:42:43.640 you think she should do to sustain and build her career. 2:42:44.440 --> 2:42:47.800 The good thing is, you know we're talking about and 2:42:47.879 --> 2:42:53.360 I'm not just saying this. She's probably one of the most. 2:42:54.080 --> 2:42:55.680 And when I say one of the most, I'm not 2:42:55.760 --> 2:42:59.760 even saying broadly. I'm talking, you know, top five most 2:43:00.080 --> 2:43:07.440 talented artists and in the business. And it's very hard. 2:43:09.280 --> 2:43:12.280 You know, probably you know when you look at her 2:43:12.440 --> 2:43:17.360 live show, it's probably only a couple of artists you 2:43:17.440 --> 2:43:20.080 know that that is up on that level in terms 2:43:20.120 --> 2:43:26.680 of live live concert performances, playing like piano is you know, 2:43:26.800 --> 2:43:31.360 it's vocalists, like you know, performance artists, top top top, top, 2:43:31.480 --> 2:43:37.440 top level. Find it's just getting the records. That's all 2:43:37.480 --> 2:43:40.760 it boils down to. It's like you know, if if, who, 2:43:40.879 --> 2:43:44.480 who are you collaborating with? And and the reality is 2:43:45.840 --> 2:43:55.560 finding making making great records with superstars is hard and 2:43:56.080 --> 2:44:02.120 it's a village because you got have to have incredibly 2:44:02.400 --> 2:44:08.800 strong producers in the room who can push back. You 2:44:08.959 --> 2:44:13.680 have to have an incredibly strong person at the top 2:44:13.720 --> 2:44:17.320 of that record label because Jimmy, basically Jimmy was tough. 2:44:18.000 --> 2:44:21.240 Like you know, you bring records in. Jimmy's a record producer, 2:44:21.640 --> 2:44:24.400 so Jimmy's gonna tell you how that record sounds or whatever. 2:44:24.959 --> 2:44:27.640 Vincent was a record producer and a songwriter, so Vince 2:44:27.800 --> 2:44:29.680 is going to tell you how to how that record 2:44:29.760 --> 2:44:33.080 sounds or whatever. And so it's a filter that it 2:44:33.160 --> 2:44:35.160 goes through, so it's not just the people in the 2:44:35.280 --> 2:44:37.840 room that are that are collaborating. And you put the 2:44:37.879 --> 2:44:40.880 record out, you gotta beat you gotta beat that record up, 2:44:40.920 --> 2:44:43.080 and you gotta be tough on tough on that record. 2:44:43.400 --> 2:44:46.400 But I think she I'm not worried about her, to 2:44:46.440 --> 2:44:49.440 be honest with you. It's like, you know, artists like she, 2:44:50.280 --> 2:44:52.680 She's just one of those artists. She's gonna be around 2:44:52.840 --> 2:44:58.000 for fifty years. It certainly seems like that. So while 2:44:58.120 --> 2:45:00.840 she's at the peak of her success, you meet a 2:45:00.959 --> 2:45:06.000 guy who guide you into the investment tech world. Can 2:45:06.080 --> 2:45:09.680 you tell the simple multitude about that? Yeah, it was um. 2:45:09.840 --> 2:45:11.360 You know, we were doing we were doing a lot 2:45:11.440 --> 2:45:15.280 of experimenting, UM with social media and I and I've 2:45:15.360 --> 2:45:20.400 always been curious around other businesses, you know, so that's 2:45:20.440 --> 2:45:23.000 been a thing where I just want to learn everything 2:45:23.120 --> 2:45:25.920 I can about what you do. Like so if I'm curious, 2:45:26.320 --> 2:45:30.920 I'm going down the rabbit hole. And UM, and we started. 2:45:31.280 --> 2:45:35.039 I remember I got invited to do a day trip 2:45:35.720 --> 2:45:38.520 to Silicon Valley and I never gone to the valley 2:45:38.600 --> 2:45:41.879 before and never gone to Palo altoo before and UM 2:45:42.160 --> 2:45:44.760 and I flew in in the morning and my first 2:45:44.840 --> 2:45:47.400 meeting was with I think it was David simmon off 2:45:47.600 --> 2:45:51.360 from Yahoo, like at a coffee shop at like eight 2:45:51.400 --> 2:45:54.400 o'clock in the morning and you know, and just he's 2:45:54.480 --> 2:45:57.360 telling me about the valley and you know, and just 2:45:57.640 --> 2:46:01.720 his history and everything and very very interesting. And then 2:46:01.800 --> 2:46:06.520 my second meeting was at Palentteer and UM and if 2:46:06.560 --> 2:46:14.000 you if if Palentteer is probably the most sophisticated technology 2:46:14.120 --> 2:46:18.200 company in Silicon Valley. And it was founded by a 2:46:18.240 --> 2:46:23.519 guy named Joe Lonsdale who was Peter Tiel's like you know, protege, 2:46:24.080 --> 2:46:26.680 you know, as Peter was coming out of PayPal, and 2:46:27.200 --> 2:46:29.800 you know, I go into their offices and it's like 2:46:29.920 --> 2:46:34.520 the TV show twenty four And what Palentteer basically does 2:46:34.720 --> 2:46:41.000 is they track um, terroristic algorithms on the Internet. So 2:46:41.520 --> 2:46:46.200 and so when after nine eleven, when the FBI was 2:46:46.320 --> 2:46:49.840 building air thing and CIA was building air thing, the 2:46:50.000 --> 2:46:53.240 d A was building air thing, none of the technology 2:46:53.640 --> 2:46:57.360 talked to each other and you know, and really worked 2:46:57.400 --> 2:47:00.200 in a way to and Palenteer figured it out. So 2:47:01.959 --> 2:47:03.720 I'm seeing this with my own I'm like, am I 2:47:03.760 --> 2:47:06.160 even you know, it's like, you know, some serious stuff. 2:47:06.720 --> 2:47:09.400 And then we went to Facebook and all of these companies, 2:47:09.600 --> 2:47:11.760 and then and that night they threw me a barbecue 2:47:11.800 --> 2:47:16.560 at Joe Linsdale's house and and I'm talking to all 2:47:16.600 --> 2:47:19.680 of these guys and you know, people could barely look 2:47:19.720 --> 2:47:22.080 you in the face. And you know, there's like as 2:47:22.240 --> 2:47:28.520 Berger's Convention. I told my wife, I'm like, I'm doing 2:47:28.600 --> 2:47:31.240 this wrong in l A right now. Like it's like 2:47:31.400 --> 2:47:35.080 everybody's driving I'm driving a Rolls Royce and these billionaires 2:47:35.080 --> 2:47:38.400 are driving prius Is and uh and this is revenge 2:47:38.440 --> 2:47:43.360 in the nerds and the nerds one big and um. 2:47:44.000 --> 2:47:47.440 And then they started inviting me into into deals and said, 2:47:47.480 --> 2:47:49.640 you know, you want to invest here. And I started 2:47:49.720 --> 2:47:57.000 investing here and then invest in there. You're listening to 2:47:57.080 --> 2:48:00.240 my conversation with Director of Creative Services and spot By 2:48:00.600 --> 2:48:03.600 Troy Carter, recorded live at the Music Media Summit in 2:48:03.640 --> 2:48:08.840 Santa Barbara, California. I hope you're enjoying listening to this 2:48:09.000 --> 2:48:11.920 episode of the Bob Left Sets podcast. If you want 2:48:11.959 --> 2:48:14.200 to listen to sound bites from the interviews and see 2:48:14.280 --> 2:48:16.840 some of my guests, check it out it at tuned 2:48:16.879 --> 2:48:20.160 in on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Now we're of my 2:48:20.280 --> 2:48:23.920 conversation with the director of Creative Services at Spotify, Troy 2:48:24.040 --> 2:48:27.240 Carter on the Bob Left Sets podcast. You were pretty 2:48:27.320 --> 2:48:29.520 much the first person, certainly in the music business who 2:48:29.680 --> 2:48:33.120 was investing. You know what, because I went in and 2:48:34.680 --> 2:48:39.160 I would probably go to the valley at least twice 2:48:39.200 --> 2:48:43.160 a week, so I would be in l A three 2:48:43.240 --> 2:48:45.800 days a week, and i'd be in San Francisco and 2:48:45.840 --> 2:48:48.760 Palo Alto two days a week, and I would start 2:48:48.840 --> 2:48:52.480 parking myself and people's offices and setting up shop in 2:48:52.520 --> 2:48:55.400 their offices during the day and um. And then when 2:48:55.440 --> 2:48:58.840 I remembered it was one of the guys I met 2:48:59.080 --> 2:49:02.680 was it was a guy named Shervin Pishavar and Shervin 2:49:03.240 --> 2:49:06.879 Um he had just sold his business and he started 2:49:07.520 --> 2:49:10.560 um investing at a firm called Menlo. And he caught 2:49:10.600 --> 2:49:12.160 me up and he said, I want to do this 2:49:12.360 --> 2:49:15.240 thing like this sort of uh, we're gonna be like this, 2:49:15.480 --> 2:49:18.000 this sort of Jedi investment group, and I just want 2:49:18.040 --> 2:49:21.280 you to be one of the Jedis and um, and 2:49:21.400 --> 2:49:24.640 he caught me up about I think Warby Parker was 2:49:24.720 --> 2:49:26.840 one of the was it the first deal that Shervin 2:49:27.160 --> 2:49:30.800 Um asked me about and then um the second deal 2:49:31.240 --> 2:49:34.360 was was Uber. But then he said, well, you know 2:49:34.440 --> 2:49:36.200 I want to do I want to start putting l 2:49:36.280 --> 2:49:39.880 A people into into the deals. Can you help introduce 2:49:40.000 --> 2:49:42.600 me to some people in in l A. And Um, 2:49:42.720 --> 2:49:45.440 so I started introducing them to to some people in 2:49:45.680 --> 2:49:47.560 l A. And we put some l A people into 2:49:47.640 --> 2:49:50.120 the Uber deal and then kind of started building this 2:49:50.280 --> 2:49:54.560 thing that sort of bridge between San Francisco and and 2:49:54.760 --> 2:49:58.760 in l A. Did you get compensated for establishing those relationships? Uh, 2:49:59.160 --> 2:50:02.360 just as an invest or, so so just from my 2:50:02.640 --> 2:50:08.800 my my compensation was Shervan would put me into he 2:50:09.400 --> 2:50:12.520 people would put me into more deals, and then the 2:50:12.640 --> 2:50:14.840 way And this is the other thing I loved about 2:50:14.879 --> 2:50:17.720 the valley that was so different from the music business. 2:50:18.320 --> 2:50:22.200 The music business is zero sum. It's like some in 2:50:22.400 --> 2:50:25.360 order for you to win, somebody has to lose. And 2:50:25.480 --> 2:50:30.160 then when and then the structure of a record label, um, 2:50:30.400 --> 2:50:33.880 whenever there's sort of a windfall, only the people at 2:50:33.920 --> 2:50:37.160 the very very top of the pyramid get get wealthy 2:50:37.760 --> 2:50:42.160 and nobody else gets gets wealthy essentially, and um and 2:50:42.280 --> 2:50:45.760 in technology and an investment. The way it works is 2:50:45.840 --> 2:50:50.199 the opposite, because you you you want the healthiest syndicate 2:50:50.360 --> 2:50:53.920 around the deal so that the entrepreneur and the company 2:50:54.000 --> 2:50:58.640 has the best chance of success. So if I know 2:50:58.959 --> 2:51:03.360 that this person here and this person here and this 2:51:03.520 --> 2:51:06.280 person here could be very helpful, I want them, then 2:51:06.400 --> 2:51:09.199 I want them in the deal because I'm gonna do better. 2:51:09.640 --> 2:51:12.160 And so that's how that's how this sort of is 2:51:12.160 --> 2:51:15.879 a network effect. So like you know, Rocking, I would 2:51:15.920 --> 2:51:18.800 put rock Nation into deals, then they would put me 2:51:18.840 --> 2:51:22.080 into deals. Um you know, Scooter and I start putting 2:51:22.240 --> 2:51:24.760 each other into deals. Gayo, Siri and I started putting 2:51:24.800 --> 2:51:27.720 each other into deals. Um you know, I remember it 2:51:27.800 --> 2:51:30.480 is funny enough. One of our companies, one of the 2:51:30.560 --> 2:51:33.760 first companies I invested in um it was a company 2:51:33.840 --> 2:51:37.440 called zim Ride that came to my office and we 2:51:37.640 --> 2:51:40.920 invested and they would calm work out of our offices 2:51:41.080 --> 2:51:45.480 in l A and then um after Uber launch, the 2:51:45.600 --> 2:51:48.440 founder caught me up and he's and he said, I 2:51:48.560 --> 2:51:51.080 want to see can you connect me with Live Nation 2:51:51.640 --> 2:51:54.040 because they have these festivals and we have this our 2:51:54.120 --> 2:51:55.920 car pooling business. I want to see if we can 2:51:56.000 --> 2:51:59.080 car pool people back and forth so I called up 2:51:59.120 --> 2:52:02.960 micro Rapino UM. Michael was great, he did the deal 2:52:03.440 --> 2:52:05.880 and Michael put you know, put some money into the company. 2:52:06.360 --> 2:52:08.960 And fast forward, that company went from zim Ride to 2:52:09.000 --> 2:52:11.879 become in Lift. So you know, and this is eight 2:52:12.000 --> 2:52:14.520 years ago. So in terms of that that sort of 2:52:14.680 --> 2:52:18.920 value at that particular time seven or eight years ago 2:52:19.520 --> 2:52:22.320 and when it becomes now, that's how you That's so 2:52:22.400 --> 2:52:25.400 when you say the compensation, is that sort of flow 2:52:25.600 --> 2:52:28.520 that that that that happens. But I'm not asking anybody 2:52:28.640 --> 2:52:32.080 for money or anything in return. In your office, you 2:52:32.160 --> 2:52:34.360 have a whole wall of the companies you've invested in 2:52:34.760 --> 2:52:36.640 at this point in time. How many companies do you 2:52:36.680 --> 2:52:40.240 think you've invested in? UM is probably about a hundred 2:52:40.320 --> 2:52:43.400 and twenty. And if a hundred and twenty, how many 2:52:43.480 --> 2:52:51.240 went completely bust? Uh, completely bust? Probably thirty or forty? 2:52:51.400 --> 2:52:54.480 Probably third about thirty I would say, are completely bust, 2:52:57.280 --> 2:53:03.600 probably forty. I would put him in in and a 2:53:03.760 --> 2:53:07.320 third a third and a third. You got you got winner, 2:53:07.400 --> 2:53:13.800 you got winners, neutral and and dogs. Okay, so you're 2:53:13.840 --> 2:53:16.720 doing this, You're done with Gaga, and then you'd like 2:53:16.800 --> 2:53:19.240 record label. I might just have a record label, right, 2:53:19.760 --> 2:53:23.200 and then you have Making Trainer. Okay, the interesting thing 2:53:23.280 --> 2:53:26.199 from the outside observer, when you're involved with Making Trainer, 2:53:26.680 --> 2:53:30.680 she's everywhere and successful, and since you've been gone, she 2:53:30.800 --> 2:53:34.400 has not achieved that level of success, showing that your ability. 2:53:34.720 --> 2:53:36.879 But at what point do you you were an investor 2:53:37.000 --> 2:53:39.600 in Spotify, at what point do you wake up and say, 2:53:40.000 --> 2:53:42.840 I'm gonna cross the street from being a manager to 2:53:42.959 --> 2:53:47.840 working for Spotify. So I invested in Spotify, and I 2:53:47.879 --> 2:53:50.600 think it was like two thousand and eleven, two thousand eleven, 2:53:51.280 --> 2:53:55.320 and UM and Daniel and I we we ended up. 2:53:57.640 --> 2:54:01.080 We we didn't initially meet when I'm used it and 2:54:01.160 --> 2:54:03.320 then I think it had to be about six or 2:54:03.400 --> 2:54:07.600 seven months later. UM as a group called called Charity 2:54:07.640 --> 2:54:10.600 Water out of New York, a guy named Scott Harrison. 2:54:10.800 --> 2:54:14.160 He put together a group of probably fifteen or twenty 2:54:14.240 --> 2:54:17.400 founders to go to spend a week and a half 2:54:17.520 --> 2:54:22.879 in Ethiopia and UM and basically you you build um 2:54:23.280 --> 2:54:27.560 wells and different villages through throughout Ethiopia. And Daniel was 2:54:27.640 --> 2:54:35.040 on that trip. And when you when you're in uh 2:54:35.160 --> 2:54:39.680 and and suv for four hours with somebody going through 2:54:39.800 --> 2:54:43.760 villages and you know, you're you're seeing you know some 2:54:45.400 --> 2:54:48.720 you know, it's it's it's incredible. It is very emotional, 2:54:49.440 --> 2:54:52.040 you know, kind of visiting these different places like just 2:54:52.440 --> 2:54:56.480 in but like if not even in a sad way, 2:54:56.640 --> 2:55:00.640 but it's like the people they are fa tastic. But 2:55:02.080 --> 2:55:04.320 he and I didn't meet sitting across the desk from 2:55:04.360 --> 2:55:08.080 each other, and I think that connected us in a 2:55:08.160 --> 2:55:11.720 way where we got to know each other personally before 2:55:11.800 --> 2:55:15.640 we did any sort of business together. And so when 2:55:16.480 --> 2:55:19.840 Spotify was, you know, had come to America, I would, 2:55:20.000 --> 2:55:22.400 you know, he and I would talk strategy, whether it 2:55:22.680 --> 2:55:25.880 was people who were holding back albums from you know, 2:55:26.200 --> 2:55:29.959 from the from the service, you know, some communication strategy, 2:55:30.240 --> 2:55:33.000 you know, some introductions to managers and things like that. 2:55:33.560 --> 2:55:35.440 But every time he would come to l A, he 2:55:35.520 --> 2:55:37.440 and I would spend a bunch of time together. And 2:55:38.120 --> 2:55:40.560 he had just become one of my favorite, my favorite people. 2:55:41.160 --> 2:55:43.600 And then, you know, a couple of years ago, you know, 2:55:44.080 --> 2:55:48.119 I was, I was so burned out from being a manager. 2:55:48.520 --> 2:55:51.200 And I've done it. I've done it for seventeen years 2:55:52.000 --> 2:55:54.720 and um and like you said, you know, Megan Trainer, 2:55:54.840 --> 2:55:57.280 Charlie Pooth and a few other clients you know where 2:55:57.440 --> 2:56:00.160 like my my the last clients on the roster or 2:56:00.920 --> 2:56:04.040 and I saw, you know, I get I get signs 2:56:04.080 --> 2:56:06.960 in my life. It's almost like gott to pull the 2:56:07.080 --> 2:56:09.840 rug up from under me sometimes, like you know, but 2:56:09.959 --> 2:56:11.520 you know, if if I don't want to make the 2:56:11.600 --> 2:56:15.960 decision myself, and I saw I started to see some 2:56:16.120 --> 2:56:20.120 of the cracks and Adam Factory's business. Um, I started 2:56:20.160 --> 2:56:23.360 to look at the future of like the management business 2:56:23.440 --> 2:56:26.440 for myself. And I I wasn't getting up in the 2:56:26.560 --> 2:56:34.000 morning excited. Um and you know, to to the amount 2:56:34.120 --> 2:56:39.360 of I don't I don't phone it in, Like I 2:56:39.520 --> 2:56:41.360 just don't have the thing where I can phone it in. 2:56:41.720 --> 2:56:45.640 And if I'm working for a client, I'm putting my 2:56:46.080 --> 2:56:50.000 soul into it. And when you put your soul into something, 2:56:50.280 --> 2:56:53.080 and you know, you get punched in the gut and 2:56:53.200 --> 2:56:56.400 it's like you know, you're not appreciated, and you know 2:56:56.560 --> 2:57:00.080 it's like you know, sometimes you know, some clients to 2:57:00.160 --> 2:57:02.560 you know, you you you got to drag them across 2:57:02.600 --> 2:57:05.680 the finish line and you gotta explain to him why 2:57:05.879 --> 2:57:09.080 should you shouldn't cancel a show, or you should you 2:57:09.160 --> 2:57:11.200 should show up one time, or you should do that 2:57:11.840 --> 2:57:15.080 I just was ready to do something different. And Daniel 2:57:15.120 --> 2:57:18.600 and I started having these conversations. And I remember I 2:57:18.600 --> 2:57:20.800 was sitting at the Soho house. He and I were 2:57:20.840 --> 2:57:24.160 working on a project together. Um I was. I was 2:57:24.240 --> 2:57:27.120 testing something out for him on on the Spotify platform. 2:57:27.840 --> 2:57:32.280 And we were at the Soho house and we started 2:57:32.360 --> 2:57:36.199 talking about what this sort of creator services thing would 2:57:36.240 --> 2:57:38.720 look would look like, you know, sort of from the 2:57:38.760 --> 2:57:43.480 outside end, and um, and we started having one of 2:57:43.560 --> 2:57:49.120 those what ifs conversations, and I remember, you know, I 2:57:49.840 --> 2:57:52.320 talked to my wife about it. I got cold feet. 2:57:52.400 --> 2:57:54.480 Like I had agreed to it, then I got cold 2:57:54.520 --> 2:57:56.039 feet and I told him, you know, I don't think 2:57:56.040 --> 2:57:58.119 I'm gonna do it, And you know, we went back 2:57:58.200 --> 2:58:03.000 and forth and no saggeration. Within a six week period, 2:58:03.760 --> 2:58:07.840 I had wound you know, I had wound down Atom 2:58:07.920 --> 2:58:12.760 Factory and was in Spotify about six six I've lived 2:58:12.760 --> 2:58:14.880 with you through a lot of challenges of Spotify, but 2:58:15.000 --> 2:58:19.000 now streaming is one. Revenues are up. What you are 2:58:19.040 --> 2:58:24.000 the major challenges you're facing now. Um, you know, I 2:58:24.120 --> 2:58:27.360 think so you know this the streaming business. I think 2:58:27.400 --> 2:58:30.160 we're still in its infancy right now. So you know, 2:58:30.240 --> 2:58:33.920 I think you have some markets that are mature, like 2:58:34.080 --> 2:58:39.040 Sweden's very like a very mature market. Um. America to 2:58:39.160 --> 2:58:42.640 me is still a young streaming market. Um. You look 2:58:42.720 --> 2:58:46.160 at places like India that's still you know, young, and 2:58:46.440 --> 2:58:49.760 what's gonna happen in and sort of Africa, um, and 2:58:49.920 --> 2:58:52.400 you know some of the other markets as well. I 2:58:52.560 --> 2:58:56.640 think it's I think in terms, I think what we 2:58:56.760 --> 2:58:59.800 had this is more of an industry thing. It's so 2:59:00.000 --> 2:59:08.800 out of defining as companies what our relationship is with 2:59:09.720 --> 2:59:11.880 the rest of the with with the rest of the industry, 2:59:12.400 --> 2:59:16.920 because you know, I definitely foresee you know what, what 2:59:18.240 --> 2:59:21.560 what all of our roles are right now are gonna 2:59:21.600 --> 2:59:25.800 look much much different over the next ten years, meaning 2:59:26.480 --> 2:59:28.840 what it is to be a record label, what it 2:59:28.959 --> 2:59:31.880 is to be a talent manager, what it means to 2:59:31.920 --> 2:59:34.440 be a promoter, you know, and what it means to 2:59:34.480 --> 2:59:36.800 be an artist by the way, so all of this 2:59:37.000 --> 2:59:40.160 is gonna look different. So I think just the thing 2:59:40.360 --> 2:59:46.680 is being able to um get who gets to the future, 2:59:46.720 --> 2:59:52.200 Who gets to the future the fastest? Okay, um, I 2:59:52.280 --> 2:59:54.879 got a number of questions. Let me think of the one. 2:59:55.280 --> 2:59:58.840 Let's go to the one that everybody is concerned about playlists. 2:59:59.240 --> 3:00:01.360 What are we here in the street. We hear the 3:00:01.440 --> 3:00:05.359 individual playlist or is being squeezed out by the major labels. 3:00:05.840 --> 3:00:07.840 We hear that what do you mean by that when 3:00:07.840 --> 3:00:10.560 you say that? They were saying that, you know that 3:00:10.680 --> 3:00:14.760 it's the major label playlists who are major labels playlists, 3:00:14.800 --> 3:00:18.080 and the Spotify playlists are getting most of the streams, 3:00:18.600 --> 3:00:22.760 and that the the major labels have power on Spotify 3:00:23.080 --> 3:00:26.959 akin to their power at radio with their promotion teams. 3:00:27.520 --> 3:00:30.000 I don't, I don't. I don't agree at all, because 3:00:30.080 --> 3:00:32.080 you know, I think I'm not saying that. This is 3:00:32.160 --> 3:00:34.400 my point. That was what people say, yeah, yeah, and 3:00:34.560 --> 3:00:37.039 which I which I don't, I don't agree, And um, 3:00:37.240 --> 3:00:39.200 you know, and I talked to the indie labels all 3:00:39.240 --> 3:00:42.720 the time, and you know, it's it's funny because you know, 3:00:43.200 --> 3:00:46.760 the indies like people that have this sort of big 3:00:46.920 --> 3:00:49.760 narrative out there. And then you know, and then I 3:00:49.840 --> 3:00:53.280 asked him a simple question, are the indie labels doing 3:00:53.360 --> 3:00:55.920 better you know now that that Spotify is here than 3:00:56.080 --> 3:00:59.840 than they were before? And and uh, unanimously to answers, 3:01:00.240 --> 3:01:03.160 s you know, because the indies are doing are doing 3:01:03.280 --> 3:01:06.360 much better now. Um, I think, and as as far 3:01:06.440 --> 3:01:11.959 as playlists are concerned, So just we we have forty 3:01:12.680 --> 3:01:19.560 playlists owned and operated by Spotify, all different types of 3:01:19.879 --> 3:01:23.560 niche like niche playlists as well. So we do have 3:01:23.760 --> 3:01:27.279 the sort of flagships to you know, Today's top Pits, 3:01:27.400 --> 3:01:31.400 Hot Country, Viva Latino, Rap, Caviare, R and B like 3:01:31.560 --> 3:01:34.360 all of those flagships, but then you've got a ton 3:01:34.520 --> 3:01:37.640 of other sort of mid tier and feeder playlists that 3:01:37.720 --> 3:01:43.320 kind of feed up into them for most of the 3:01:43.520 --> 3:01:47.240 artists that that that we're talking about, we're talking about 3:01:47.360 --> 3:01:50.400 artists who will who would never get on radio. By 3:01:50.440 --> 3:01:53.520 the way, like we know how Top forty works, you 3:01:53.640 --> 3:01:56.119 better have a huge budget if you want to get 3:01:56.160 --> 3:01:58.720 if you want to take a record all formats, be 3:01:58.879 --> 3:02:01.720 prepared to have a half a million dollars to to 3:02:01.840 --> 3:02:04.640 go all formats to get a top ten record at 3:02:04.760 --> 3:02:07.720 radio um and so, and you need you need a 3:02:07.800 --> 3:02:10.120 real system to be to be able to be able 3:02:10.160 --> 3:02:12.760 to to to to do that. And then you have 3:02:12.879 --> 3:02:14.960 to have a certain type of record with a certain 3:02:15.040 --> 3:02:19.119 type of sound. And so if you're looking at Top 3:02:19.240 --> 3:02:24.440 forties specifically, you figure it's let's call it twenty five 3:02:24.560 --> 3:02:28.720 slots and then let's call it twenty artists that are 3:02:28.720 --> 3:02:32.400 gonna fulfill those those twenty those twenty slots, and you know, 3:02:32.480 --> 3:02:34.640 because of the artists who are gonna have multiple songs 3:02:34.800 --> 3:02:40.560 and in those slots. So you got uh one tenth 3:02:40.680 --> 3:02:43.320 of a percent, and then you got the one percent, 3:02:43.480 --> 3:02:45.560 and you know, then then then it kind of breaks 3:02:45.600 --> 3:02:49.120 down from there. So I think the sort of ecosystem 3:02:49.200 --> 3:02:53.680 of our playlist gives a fair shot to the entire 3:02:53.800 --> 3:02:56.280 industry at that at that point. And what what I 3:02:56.400 --> 3:02:58.800 the the one thing I like what I love about 3:02:59.280 --> 3:03:03.480 you know, spot if I is that people can't figure 3:03:03.560 --> 3:03:08.080 it out. You can't. There's no it's no hype. So 3:03:08.200 --> 3:03:11.000 it's not you can't come in there and and and 3:03:11.200 --> 3:03:14.440 sort of hype your record to get us to put 3:03:14.520 --> 3:03:18.240 it on on on on a playlist. The data doesn't lie. 3:03:18.879 --> 3:03:21.160 So it's like, you know, okay, but if you talk 3:03:21.240 --> 3:03:22.840 to like Daniel Glass, he comes to l A, you'll 3:03:22.840 --> 3:03:25.120 hang out at Apple Music, will go to Spotify. To 3:03:25.240 --> 3:03:29.880 what degree is the personal relationship important? Per Personal relationships 3:03:29.920 --> 3:03:32.480 are always going to be important, right, but they're only 3:03:32.520 --> 3:03:36.879 gonna be important to a certain extent. Because as much 3:03:36.920 --> 3:03:40.400 as I love Daniel and if Daniel doesn't walk in 3:03:40.440 --> 3:03:43.039 the door with a great record, Daniel's record is gonna 3:03:43.040 --> 3:03:47.000 be treated like everybody else's record. Essentially lucky enough, you know, 3:03:47.280 --> 3:03:50.240 Daniel walks in with Jade Bird and she becomes one 3:03:50.280 --> 3:03:53.360 of my favorite artists and we're carrying a jay Bird 3:03:53.400 --> 3:03:56.320 flag throughout throughout the building or whatever. But with that 3:03:56.440 --> 3:04:01.039 being said, a lot of the stuff that major labels 3:04:01.080 --> 3:04:05.320 are signing right now aren't coming through any label. They're 3:04:05.360 --> 3:04:10.160 coming through Spotify. So it's we were it's between our editors, 3:04:10.920 --> 3:04:15.440 um sort of looking at blogs, living on SoundCloud, you know, 3:04:15.680 --> 3:04:17.959 sort of digging in the crates, kind of finding new 3:04:18.040 --> 3:04:21.160 stuff because they want to discover things. I get calls 3:04:21.240 --> 3:04:25.360 from our editors basically saying, um, hey hey, Troy, I 3:04:25.440 --> 3:04:28.720 found this record. Um, we gotta they gotta figure out 3:04:28.760 --> 3:04:31.560 to aggregator to put it through because there's no record label, 3:04:31.879 --> 3:04:34.959 and then this act will end up with fifty million 3:04:35.040 --> 3:04:37.280 streams and they'll end up with a record deal and 3:04:37.400 --> 3:04:39.920 then the labels you know, are are signing them. So 3:04:40.640 --> 3:04:43.640 that's not a lot of the rap caviare stuff is 3:04:43.800 --> 3:04:47.120 with stuff that our editors found. Even on the pop side. 3:04:47.520 --> 3:04:51.800 Mike Mike baggage finds things and then he puts it 3:04:51.879 --> 3:04:54.760 into the pop playlist and then they end up getting signed. 3:04:55.480 --> 3:04:59.840 So if we what do you see the future, Because 3:05:00.000 --> 3:05:01.800 we can go on Spotify right now, we can see 3:05:01.840 --> 3:05:04.640 the Spotify Top fifty changes every day. We can see 3:05:04.640 --> 3:05:07.560 the number of streams and except for the Superstar of 3:05:07.600 --> 3:05:11.720 superstars with one single, radio is way behind. They won't 3:05:11.760 --> 3:05:14.840 add multiple tracks, they're off the months. Find what do 3:05:14.920 --> 3:05:17.680 you foresee the future? There? You know, I think I 3:05:17.800 --> 3:05:20.800 think radio's in trouble, you know readio radio as we know, 3:05:20.920 --> 3:05:24.400 it's in trouble, and I think it's inevitable because the 3:05:24.560 --> 3:05:28.720 only way from radio that you make your business better 3:05:29.680 --> 3:05:34.720 is to build the uh an experience that's worse for 3:05:34.800 --> 3:05:38.959 the consumer, meaning you know, you gotta put more ads 3:05:39.480 --> 3:05:42.440 into and into into the product. So you know, I 3:05:42.560 --> 3:05:44.320 even know when if I go and out and I 3:05:44.440 --> 3:05:47.520 turn on radio, is a high probability that is going 3:05:47.560 --> 3:05:49.520 to be commercials on so soon as soon as I 3:05:49.640 --> 3:05:52.280 turn it on. So that's one sort of friction point, 3:05:52.440 --> 3:05:54.920 you know, out of the gate. Then the second friction 3:05:55.040 --> 3:05:59.520 point is radio relies so much on research because they 3:05:59.600 --> 3:06:02.040 want to do they need to de risk it or whatever. 3:06:02.560 --> 3:06:06.520 So you know, it's not like when uh DJs and 3:06:06.600 --> 3:06:11.200 programmers could make independent decisions before, and they felt something 3:06:11.240 --> 3:06:12.760 and they could put it in, they could put it 3:06:12.840 --> 3:06:15.720 in right away. A lot of the radio stations are 3:06:15.720 --> 3:06:18.360 looking at Spotify data and kind of using that to 3:06:18.520 --> 3:06:21.600 decide which which records they're they're gonna put in, So 3:06:21.760 --> 3:06:25.400 by the time they hear that, that record is old 3:06:25.480 --> 3:06:29.360 on Spotify. So, you know, so for my kids who 3:06:29.560 --> 3:06:31.720 get in the car and they're you know, going on 3:06:31.840 --> 3:06:34.840 Spotify and YouTube to kind of consume their music, if 3:06:34.879 --> 3:06:37.560 they turn on Top forty radio, whatever they're hearing is 3:06:37.560 --> 3:06:40.200 already months old by that time. So I think you 3:06:40.440 --> 3:06:44.520 lose a consumer at that point or it starts feeling like, um, 3:06:45.080 --> 3:06:48.200 almost like an adult Top forty because you know, you're 3:06:48.360 --> 3:06:51.080 you're playing old music. So I think that's a big 3:06:51.240 --> 3:06:55.320 I think this is a gap and for us, we 3:06:55.560 --> 3:06:57.720 can't you know, and I think this is a big, 3:06:57.959 --> 3:07:00.600 you know, sort of gap and friction point it you know, 3:07:00.680 --> 3:07:06.080 Spotify and and and frontline record labels, we can't keep 3:07:06.200 --> 3:07:08.720 your record in while you're going for your radio plan 3:07:09.160 --> 3:07:13.000 because our consumer has already moved on to your second 3:07:13.080 --> 3:07:16.040 or third single. By the time you know, you're getting 3:07:16.080 --> 3:07:18.920 added at at radio, so you know, so I think 3:07:19.000 --> 3:07:22.879 that's the part that from an industry perspective, I think 3:07:23.040 --> 3:07:25.800 on the label side, they have to figure out what's 3:07:25.800 --> 3:07:30.080 gonna be what's important to you, you know, being current 3:07:30.160 --> 3:07:32.400 with the consumers and being able to have you know, 3:07:32.560 --> 3:07:36.720 songs within the within these playlists, or you know, getting 3:07:36.760 --> 3:07:39.480 added at top forty. So we'll see how to and 3:07:39.560 --> 3:07:42.280 if we go on the US Top fifty, it is 3:07:42.520 --> 3:07:45.760 very much urban slash hip hop. So the question that's 3:07:45.800 --> 3:07:52.760 obviously illustrating demand, but to what degree does Spotify have 3:07:52.840 --> 3:07:56.440 a responsibility to give attention to other formats? Let me 3:07:56.520 --> 3:07:58.520 just say for myself, let me give an experience. I 3:07:58.600 --> 3:07:59.920 want to know what's going on, So I'll go to 3:08:00.080 --> 3:08:02.760 Spotify Top fifty. I'll listen. Then if I think of 3:08:02.800 --> 3:08:05.840 all the other genres, country, electronic, it's a lot of 3:08:05.959 --> 3:08:08.600 work and there are a lot of acts today forget that. 3:08:08.959 --> 3:08:11.040 You know, people don't seem to understand that you get 3:08:11.080 --> 3:08:13.640 paid based on whether people stream you or not. But 3:08:13.920 --> 3:08:17.720 is is are we purely speaking to the public's demand, 3:08:18.280 --> 3:08:21.600 or is there any way or is there responsibility for 3:08:21.840 --> 3:08:25.480 Spotify to boost other formats. So so and as a 3:08:25.800 --> 3:08:29.760 really really really good question, so where um so, But 3:08:29.959 --> 3:08:32.240 so we'll separate it for a second. So when you 3:08:32.280 --> 3:08:35.440 look at the top fifty, that's just demand, right, So 3:08:36.320 --> 3:08:40.760 that is that is the pulse of what people on 3:08:40.879 --> 3:08:44.320 our platform are are actually listening to. Because the difference 3:08:44.360 --> 3:08:48.440 with radio is push, the difference with Spotify is pull. 3:08:48.840 --> 3:08:52.200 So that is consumers actually listening to that to that 3:08:52.360 --> 3:08:55.080 music because they can easily skip through it. Right, So 3:08:55.240 --> 3:08:58.080 this is what this is urban. So urban hip hop 3:08:58.720 --> 3:09:02.080 is lead top forty right now in terms is pop 3:09:02.200 --> 3:09:06.160 music in terms of popularity UM if you look at 3:09:06.240 --> 3:09:09.520 you know, we talked last week we announced UM the 3:09:10.280 --> 3:09:13.280 new the new free app on on Spotify, and a 3:09:13.360 --> 3:09:17.200 lot of what we talked about was personalization because when 3:09:18.480 --> 3:09:21.160 the beauty of the beauty of of of data is 3:09:21.240 --> 3:09:25.400 being able to give everybody in this room a personalized experience. 3:09:25.520 --> 3:09:28.960 So and and that's that that was a that's a 3:09:29.040 --> 3:09:32.240 big friction point because if you're a country music fan 3:09:32.920 --> 3:09:35.280 and you show up and the first thing you see 3:09:35.480 --> 3:09:38.640 is is me goes you know in the platform, you 3:09:38.760 --> 3:09:40.959 might churn out at that point, or if you can't, 3:09:41.560 --> 3:09:44.480 or if you feel sort of it's almost like you're 3:09:44.520 --> 3:09:47.280 walking into a room and not feeling welcome, you know, 3:09:47.520 --> 3:09:50.160 So how do you make people feel welcome when they 3:09:50.240 --> 3:09:52.320 walk into that room. So a lot of the stuff 3:09:52.360 --> 3:09:55.440 that we're working on right now is built around personalization. 3:09:56.000 --> 3:09:58.200 So I think, what you what what people see in 3:09:58.280 --> 3:10:01.520 the in the new free app from the onboarding, we're gonna, 3:10:01.560 --> 3:10:03.960 we're gonna, you know, allow you to tell us about 3:10:04.000 --> 3:10:07.680 yourself and and so when you come to Spotify, how 3:10:07.720 --> 3:10:11.240 do we give you a personalized experience? And then um, 3:10:11.440 --> 3:10:15.760 but you know, it's almost like the personalized experience would 3:10:15.760 --> 3:10:18.840 be to a the A story and the B story 3:10:19.040 --> 3:10:21.320 is more to shared experience, you know. And I think 3:10:21.480 --> 3:10:24.240 right now it's a little bit of the opposite where 3:10:24.680 --> 3:10:26.880 it was in the past. It was the opposite where 3:10:26.879 --> 3:10:30.600 it was the shared story was for was out in front, 3:10:31.040 --> 3:10:35.039 and then the personalization was more in to discover weekly 3:10:35.160 --> 3:10:42.400 product and and things like that. We'll pause here for 3:10:42.520 --> 3:10:45.320 a brief moment and get right back to the director 3:10:45.320 --> 3:10:51.280 of Creative Services and Spotify, Troy Carter. As you probably know, 3:10:52.000 --> 3:10:53.840 I'm mainly a writer and you can read my work 3:10:53.920 --> 3:10:56.720 at left sets dot com if you sign up for 3:10:56.760 --> 3:10:59.440 the newsletter not only will you get my commentary, i'm music, 3:10:59.520 --> 3:11:02.959 tech and my life in general. You'll be the first 3:11:03.000 --> 3:11:05.960 to find out when we publish a new conversation. Go 3:11:06.080 --> 3:11:09.800 to left steps dot com and sign up now more. 3:11:09.879 --> 3:11:12.760 Were the director of creative services that Spotify. Troy Carter 3:11:13.280 --> 3:11:17.959 recorded live at the Music Media Summit in Santa Barbara, California. Okay, 3:11:18.360 --> 3:11:21.000 we're gonna open up to questions. Now. Two things, One 3:11:21.120 --> 3:11:25.920 wait for a mic, and to please ask a question 3:11:26.000 --> 3:11:28.120 as opposed to giving your opinion. We're certainly interested in 3:11:28.160 --> 3:11:30.920 your opinion, but everybody may not. It's certainly for dinner 3:11:31.240 --> 3:11:34.720 or other times. So I have Troy here, please make 3:11:34.800 --> 3:11:41.360 it a question. Since you're talking about personalization, so you're 3:11:41.400 --> 3:11:46.760 saying that you're getting receiving enough qualitative data to give somebody, 3:11:47.400 --> 3:11:51.440 uh human behavior personalization. That's that's how much data you 3:11:51.480 --> 3:11:55.640 guys are receiving too, to personalize get your face for 3:11:55.800 --> 3:12:01.000 that person exactly, exactly. So just understanding how people listening to, 3:12:01.360 --> 3:12:05.680 how how people listen to music, and um, what types 3:12:05.720 --> 3:12:10.080 of people are listening to, what types of music allows 3:12:10.240 --> 3:12:15.680 us to give a better listening experience. So in terms 3:12:15.760 --> 3:12:21.760 and in that you know it's funny because when when 3:12:21.840 --> 3:12:24.320 you talk about data now because of the Facebook thing, 3:12:24.640 --> 3:12:27.840 you know, it kind of freaks people out right. Um, 3:12:28.360 --> 3:12:31.360 but data used in the right way can give you 3:12:31.480 --> 3:12:37.320 an incredible experience. So if you look at ten years 3:12:37.879 --> 3:12:44.360 of understanding the way tens and tens of millions over 3:12:44.360 --> 3:12:48.160 a hundred million people listening listen to music, you really 3:12:48.280 --> 3:12:51.280 understand how to personalize and experience. And that's how That's 3:12:51.320 --> 3:12:55.160 why I discover Weekly worked really well, release Radar worked 3:12:55.200 --> 3:12:58.960 really well, and then um daily Mix worked really well. 3:12:59.440 --> 3:13:02.400 And now know, UM, I think we're we're we're we're 3:13:02.480 --> 3:13:07.200 able to dial it in even even better. Next question, Jim, 3:13:09.280 --> 3:13:11.640 we have to Mike, So if someone else get a 3:13:11.720 --> 3:13:15.800 Mike Jake. UM, I have a question, if you guys 3:13:15.879 --> 3:13:19.760 have ever looked at the genre of music against the 3:13:19.920 --> 3:13:24.920 free service versus the paid service? Can you I think 3:13:24.959 --> 3:13:27.879 what he means is do people listen who are paying 3:13:28.280 --> 3:13:31.640 listen to different stuff from the people who are not paying? Yeah, 3:13:32.680 --> 3:13:35.400 and and and do you have data on that? So 3:13:35.560 --> 3:13:38.040 the answer would be I'm add percent sure we have 3:13:38.200 --> 3:13:41.560 data data on that. UM. I wouldn't be able to 3:13:41.800 --> 3:13:47.600 break down specifically, I could say it broadly, you know, 3:13:47.840 --> 3:13:50.640 in terms of like sort of premium premium versus free, 3:13:51.080 --> 3:13:56.840 but um, not really specifically right right now, okay, gentlemen, 3:13:56.959 --> 3:13:59.360 right here, hey Troy, I'm here from Sweden. There's a 3:13:59.400 --> 3:14:02.680 lot of debate eight um back where I'm from about 3:14:02.840 --> 3:14:05.760 the sort of payment models from Spotify little bit a 3:14:05.800 --> 3:14:09.080 little bit louder place, the payment models from Spotify to 3:14:09.360 --> 3:14:12.120 the labels and from the labels to the artists, and 3:14:12.240 --> 3:14:15.280 the sort of royalty pool that's being built up. Do 3:14:15.520 --> 3:14:18.360 you know if Spotify is planning to change anything in 3:14:18.400 --> 3:14:21.560 the model in the nearest future or instead of discussion 3:14:21.600 --> 3:14:26.680 that happens in the office. Well, well, um, and this 3:14:26.920 --> 3:14:28.840 is is a is a good question. You know. The 3:14:29.240 --> 3:14:32.879 reality is, you know you kind of we I think 3:14:32.920 --> 3:14:37.880 we've gone through this sort of in a very very 3:14:37.959 --> 3:14:44.080 beginning of Spotify, when when people said Spotify doesn't pay 3:14:44.240 --> 3:14:48.320 pay out, they were right because it was no scale, right, 3:14:48.480 --> 3:14:51.840 So it's just you know, it's only a certain amount 3:14:51.920 --> 3:14:56.560 of paying customers on the platform, So the royalty payments 3:14:56.600 --> 3:15:00.200 were smaller in the beginning. You fast forward and out 3:15:00.440 --> 3:15:04.480 we paid out over eight billion euros, you know, to 3:15:04.680 --> 3:15:09.599 to to the music industry. And but how that's distributed 3:15:10.000 --> 3:15:14.800 to artists and creators is based off of individual deals. 3:15:15.480 --> 3:15:18.240 So at that point, you know, it's we can't make 3:15:19.040 --> 3:15:23.240 UM rights holders pay out any specific way you know 3:15:23.360 --> 3:15:27.520 is their individual deals with individual artists. UM. But the 3:15:27.640 --> 3:15:33.280 reality is, I think quite naturally, UM, just what what 3:15:33.959 --> 3:15:38.360 I see happening generally in the industry. The next ten 3:15:38.440 --> 3:15:40.680 years are gonna look a lot different because you have 3:15:41.879 --> 3:15:45.080 a lot of are you got I'm seeing artists that 3:15:45.440 --> 3:15:50.440 are UM and I'm just gonna speak very candidly, I'm 3:15:50.440 --> 3:15:52.480 seeing a lot of artists that are opting to stay 3:15:52.520 --> 3:15:56.640 independent because they're seeing how much, you know, you can 3:15:56.720 --> 3:15:58.960 really make, you can really make a living and you 3:15:59.040 --> 3:16:01.680 get you get real hash flow in terms of not 3:16:01.879 --> 3:16:04.959 having to wait you know, along along if you are independent, 3:16:05.000 --> 3:16:07.240 how often you get paid from Spotify um you get 3:16:07.280 --> 3:16:10.080 It depends on your aggregator and how your aggregator works. 3:16:10.120 --> 3:16:12.240 But let's say on average you get a monthly payment 3:16:12.360 --> 3:16:15.600 that trails. Right, So if I didn't interrupt, do you 3:16:15.640 --> 3:16:18.280 get a monthly payment that that trails. But let's just 3:16:18.320 --> 3:16:20.440 talk about the future of the business. Right, If we 3:16:20.520 --> 3:16:22.760 look at the future of the business, and we look 3:16:22.840 --> 3:16:26.360 at a cross and this isn't me predicting Spotify. I'm 3:16:26.440 --> 3:16:29.240 just talking specifically for the industry and looking at other 3:16:29.320 --> 3:16:33.480 types of industry. Why shouldn't artists get paid If uber 3:16:33.600 --> 3:16:37.720 drivers and lift drivers now can say cash out after 3:16:37.840 --> 3:16:40.760 their drive and that and it goes directly into their 3:16:40.760 --> 3:16:44.360 bank account of PayPal account, my guess is artists in 3:16:44.400 --> 3:16:46.560 the future are gonna be able to cash out after 3:16:46.840 --> 3:16:49.480 a day of streams how whenever they need, whenever they 3:16:49.560 --> 3:16:52.400 need that money. And cash flow is a big problem 3:16:52.440 --> 3:16:55.039 with artists. We know you might need to pay rent, 3:16:55.160 --> 3:16:56.959 you might need to buy gear, you might be going 3:16:57.000 --> 3:16:59.200 on tour, whatever, you might need to buy a car, 3:16:59.360 --> 3:17:02.520 whatever you need to do. Cash flows an issue. So 3:17:02.760 --> 3:17:07.320 when historically you know, record labels have taken care of 3:17:07.360 --> 3:17:11.920 a cash flow problem. But in so I think, um, 3:17:12.760 --> 3:17:18.160 the question, the bigger question becomes value proposition. Well, the 3:17:18.320 --> 3:17:25.200 value proposition um for of giving up eighty five of 3:17:25.440 --> 3:17:32.439 your of your revenue and exchange for marketing promotion, cash advanced, 3:17:32.480 --> 3:17:37.480 whatever is it gonna be worth it? And that's I 3:17:37.560 --> 3:17:39.959 think that's gonna be That's gonna be the biggest trick. 3:17:40.280 --> 3:17:42.920 But I think I don't think deals are gonna stay 3:17:42.959 --> 3:17:46.000 the same I think that the whole value chain is 3:17:46.040 --> 3:17:50.760 gonna change. I think record labels are gonna um evolve 3:17:50.840 --> 3:17:54.680 their their value proposition. I think managers are gonna evolve 3:17:54.760 --> 3:17:58.840 their value proposition. I think UM those services are gonna 3:17:58.879 --> 3:18:01.920 start looking very like each other. Management companies will look 3:18:01.959 --> 3:18:05.320 like labels, labels will look like management companies and UM 3:18:05.680 --> 3:18:07.280 and then but from there, I think it's going to 3:18:07.360 --> 3:18:10.560 be about the value that the artists feel like they 3:18:10.600 --> 3:18:14.840 can capture. In the end, does that answer? Does that help? Well? 3:18:14.879 --> 3:18:16.960 The other? The other? But the other thing about I 3:18:17.000 --> 3:18:19.400 think you're addressing is at this point in time, is 3:18:19.440 --> 3:18:22.199 it's sixty seven or sixty eight percent of every dollar 3:18:22.400 --> 3:18:26.280 goes to right soldiers, UM from from Spotify, Yes, some 3:18:26.440 --> 3:18:29.039 somewhere in the area. Right, So what happened If you've 3:18:29.040 --> 3:18:31.200 had to deal with an aggregator like tune in you pay, 3:18:31.400 --> 3:18:33.039 I mean the tune corret you paid once a year. 3:18:33.240 --> 3:18:35.560 All that money will be yours, assuming you both write 3:18:35.600 --> 3:18:38.120 the song and record the song. But if there's someone 3:18:38.160 --> 3:18:41.119 in between, like a label, assuming they're paying you at all, 3:18:41.720 --> 3:18:44.680 your deal maybe fifteen cents on the dollar that they get. 3:18:45.400 --> 3:18:48.480 But the issue this is also an interesting issue because 3:18:48.920 --> 3:18:52.640 they don't really want Spotify if they really start talking 3:18:52.680 --> 3:18:55.280 about this and pointing at the labels their partners, the 3:18:55.360 --> 3:18:57.360 labels don't like it to be talked about. And we 3:18:57.440 --> 3:18:59.720 don't have to point like it, I think. And that's 3:18:59.760 --> 3:19:03.119 the thing, like it's you know where we're it's it's 3:19:03.640 --> 3:19:07.840 we We are a very transparent company and you know 3:19:07.959 --> 3:19:10.000 we don't we don't play hide the ball with with 3:19:10.320 --> 3:19:13.920 with record labels. We talked very openly about the about 3:19:14.320 --> 3:19:17.440 our business to them. Um. We also talked to to 3:19:17.680 --> 3:19:20.080 to the record labels about what the future the business 3:19:20.200 --> 3:19:25.120 is gonna look like. And Daniels a guy who he 3:19:25.320 --> 3:19:28.280 lives ten years in the in in the future, like 3:19:28.440 --> 3:19:32.040 that's that's how he he thinks. And you know, my 3:19:32.280 --> 3:19:35.200 and you know and I laugh because at times I say, 3:19:35.280 --> 3:19:38.039 hold on you your ten years in the future. Sometimes 3:19:38.080 --> 3:19:40.400 I'm dealing with people who are ten years in the past. 3:19:40.840 --> 3:19:43.200 I gotta client of clothes. I gotta close the gap 3:19:43.280 --> 3:19:50.880 a little because mine very quickly. Okay, No, So I 3:19:50.959 --> 3:19:55.199 think Spotify is great, and I think that the okay 3:19:55.520 --> 3:19:58.360 and the payout is similar to own distributions. So that's 3:19:58.440 --> 3:20:01.800 all great. I'm what part of my question was relating 3:20:01.840 --> 3:20:04.360 to the sort of pool. What happens if I pay 3:20:04.600 --> 3:20:09.360 my I don't know what it's here not. So what 3:20:09.680 --> 3:20:12.440 you're addressing is if I pay ten dollars and only 3:20:12.480 --> 3:20:15.240 listen to bandex, should be index get all of my 3:20:15.360 --> 3:20:18.840 ten dollars. About five years ago somebody ran the numbers 3:20:19.040 --> 3:20:21.160 and they found that people were actually going to make 3:20:21.280 --> 3:20:24.680 less under that basis. I haven't seen the numbers run recently, 3:20:25.280 --> 3:20:27.680 but I would just go to the bottom line is 3:20:27.840 --> 3:20:30.680 but it goes to the pool, right Yeah. Spotify pays 3:20:31.280 --> 3:20:34.200 based on the listens, and every at least once a 3:20:34.240 --> 3:20:37.000 week somebody emails being something that's got fifty million streams 3:20:37.200 --> 3:20:39.200 that I've never heard of. It's not on a label. 3:20:39.560 --> 3:20:42.280 So people email me all the time that they're getting 3:20:42.520 --> 3:20:44.760 not even a million streams. Why are they not making money? 3:20:45.600 --> 3:20:48.440 The demand is not that high, but interesting topics just 3:20:48.480 --> 3:20:51.320 want to gainst other people a chance. Gentlemen, lady back 3:20:51.320 --> 3:20:53.520 there in a million. A million streams isn't a lot 3:20:53.640 --> 3:20:59.199 on our platform. I'm gonna switch topics just very quickly. 3:20:59.480 --> 3:21:02.119 I've loved to this so much. Thank you. My background 3:21:02.200 --> 3:21:05.560 I'm a Silicon Valley nerd and worked in digital audio 3:21:05.640 --> 3:21:09.360 forever started off at digit Design, and I have to hear, 3:21:09.760 --> 3:21:12.960 uh what the tip was that Jimmy Ivan gave you 3:21:13.240 --> 3:21:16.200 to make Lady Gagas sound better on tour. I've just 3:21:16.320 --> 3:21:20.280 been dying to know what that was. That was what 3:21:20.480 --> 3:21:25.480 we fired. We fired our front of house guy. I've 3:21:25.520 --> 3:21:28.560 worked with a lot of sound engineers, so I know Horace. 3:21:28.920 --> 3:21:31.119 So hopefully it wasn't well. By the way, I love Horrors. 3:21:31.200 --> 3:21:33.400 By the way Harors we were. Horrors was out with 3:21:33.520 --> 3:21:35.600 us for a long time. He's great. By the way, 3:21:35.680 --> 3:21:39.200 he did some of our best tours. Okay, we probably 3:21:39.240 --> 3:21:41.400 got hard right over here on the left, just to 3:21:41.400 --> 3:21:43.760 show we have interest over here while he's standing, he 3:21:43.800 --> 3:21:47.640 can get it. We'll get next. Hi. Try great. This 3:21:47.840 --> 3:21:52.000 was a great discussion, moderation aside. I thought it was fantastic. Um, 3:21:54.400 --> 3:21:57.120 I mean talking ten years down down the road, the 3:21:57.200 --> 3:21:59.640 way Daniel seems to look at things. Um, some of 3:21:59.760 --> 3:22:02.920 us also try to look that way. In terms of 3:22:03.240 --> 3:22:05.680 you know you, you mentioned a lot of strategic partnerships 3:22:05.760 --> 3:22:08.800 that you've had in your other business dealings. What about 3:22:08.879 --> 3:22:14.519 in terms of touring. Has Spotify looked towards strategic partnerships 3:22:15.400 --> 3:22:17.959 in that respect? You know, I talked, we we talked 3:22:17.959 --> 3:22:20.760 about touring a lot just because you know, it's it's 3:22:20.800 --> 3:22:28.040 an industry that we feel is it's it's broken, you know. Um. 3:22:29.920 --> 3:22:33.360 I was talking to one of our engineers about you know, product, 3:22:33.840 --> 3:22:36.480 and I was telling them it was I think it 3:22:36.640 --> 3:22:41.320 was with Gaga, we sold out we would put a 3:22:41.400 --> 3:22:44.440 tour up. And I got a call from the promoter 3:22:44.720 --> 3:22:48.080 and they said, hey, we sold out for gardens and 3:22:48.680 --> 3:22:50.520 X amount of time and you know we had we 3:22:50.959 --> 3:22:54.280 we had another two or three in the queue. Said 3:22:54.760 --> 3:22:57.640 I'm thinking, I'm like, that's not good news. Somebody should 3:22:57.640 --> 3:23:00.879 have known that it was you know enough, we could 3:23:00.920 --> 3:23:04.200 have done three more gardens instead of us having to 3:23:04.280 --> 3:23:09.440 go to fucking Jersey after New York. Because to be 3:23:09.560 --> 3:23:13.160 able to monetize not have to pack up and move 3:23:13.280 --> 3:23:17.840 your show, not have to be hard on the artist's 3:23:18.120 --> 3:23:21.440 physical body by having to move them around is so 3:23:21.640 --> 3:23:25.400 many inefficiencies and in touring, and so the way towards 3:23:25.400 --> 3:23:29.119 around it right now is not through data. Is basically 3:23:29.280 --> 3:23:31.879 through guys who have been out on the road, through 3:23:31.920 --> 3:23:37.840 booking agents. UM, through hey, uh this pop act did 3:23:38.080 --> 3:23:40.600 this amount of O two so you should be able 3:23:40.600 --> 3:23:42.840 to do this amount of O twos or whatever. There's 3:23:42.920 --> 3:23:47.000 no data. The merchandise business is the same exact thing. 3:23:47.080 --> 3:23:50.440 It's no, it's no data. So we feel like, you know, 3:23:50.600 --> 3:23:53.800 there's enough data at least that we have where we 3:23:53.920 --> 3:23:58.119 can identify super fans on on the platform and specific markets. 3:23:58.680 --> 3:24:02.640 And if with access to other types of data be 3:24:02.800 --> 3:24:06.400 at venue data, poll Star data, you know, the artists 3:24:06.480 --> 3:24:10.320 you know, um, their their fan site data some other things, 3:24:10.920 --> 3:24:16.600 you can really make well informed decisions on touring. But 3:24:16.760 --> 3:24:28.240 not even the Getta Getta. But I think even the 3:24:28.360 --> 3:24:31.600 product now though to me, is remedial in terms of 3:24:32.600 --> 3:24:35.480 what's available. Like, to be honest with you, I like 3:24:36.240 --> 3:24:42.720 routing the tour is the easiest part, right, but understanding 3:24:42.840 --> 3:24:56.640 who is I'm doing that now? I'm doing it now. 3:24:56.879 --> 3:25:00.760 I did three hundred of them last year probably, so 3:25:00.959 --> 3:25:03.200 we you know, we probably sold close to a hundred 3:25:03.240 --> 3:25:07.120 million and tickets for people, so we we Well, so 3:25:07.400 --> 3:25:09.720 it's supposed to be clear. I get that email who's 3:25:09.760 --> 3:25:14.240 playing in my neighborhood from Spotify, but not not that okay, 3:25:14.400 --> 3:25:16.440 so but I'm aware of that, tell me about the 3:25:16.840 --> 3:25:20.840 super fans. So so basically, yes, so basically what happens 3:25:20.959 --> 3:25:25.400 is UM booking agents come to us or managers that 3:25:25.520 --> 3:25:28.680 come to us, and we do two things. So we 3:25:28.879 --> 3:25:33.160 either can help UM a lot of like superstars that 3:25:33.280 --> 3:25:36.200 come to us and they'll say, we only want our 3:25:36.320 --> 3:25:40.640 super fans and x amount in the first few rows 3:25:40.959 --> 3:25:44.160 throughout the entire tour, So can you market the show 3:25:44.800 --> 3:25:47.760 with this with the with this ticket allocation to our 3:25:47.840 --> 3:25:51.240 super fans. So that's one one part of it, so 3:25:51.360 --> 3:25:53.560 where we'll market the show to the super fans on 3:25:53.680 --> 3:25:56.960 our through our platform essentially through our data. And then 3:25:57.000 --> 3:26:00.120 the other piece of it is distressed inventory, So for 3:26:00.200 --> 3:26:04.720 shows that aren't selling, being able to identify those super 3:26:04.800 --> 3:26:06.960 fans and those markets who may not know that the 3:26:07.000 --> 3:26:10.440 show's coming through and being able to to sell the 3:26:10.560 --> 3:26:14.320 distressed inventory as well. So what you'll see and by 3:26:14.360 --> 3:26:16.520 the way, even with the amount of tickets that we 3:26:16.640 --> 3:26:21.400 sold through their UM, we still think it's remedial. So 3:26:21.600 --> 3:26:23.760 the products that you know we're working on right now, 3:26:23.879 --> 3:26:26.120 we feel like it's gonna get better and better. So 3:26:26.240 --> 3:26:28.640 one like one of the things Daniel talked about on 3:26:28.720 --> 3:26:32.120 our investor relations day UM you know a couple of 3:26:32.160 --> 3:26:35.960 months ago, was this idea about a building out a marketplace. 3:26:36.400 --> 3:26:41.599 So essentially Spotify is is will evolve into a marketplace 3:26:41.680 --> 3:26:44.080 where artists don't need us to do it. They'll be 3:26:44.160 --> 3:26:46.359 able to come on there and reach their fans directly, 3:26:46.840 --> 3:26:51.000 sell their tickets to their fans, directly, merchandise, message their fans, 3:26:51.240 --> 3:26:54.240 and to kind of build this relationship. Okay, who has 3:26:54.320 --> 3:26:56.400 the mic right now? I got I got one over here. 3:26:56.440 --> 3:27:01.280 I just found it. Thank you, thank you. UM. You 3:27:01.480 --> 3:27:05.200 brought up India verses or artists wanting to stay Indy. 3:27:05.400 --> 3:27:07.760 I think one of the biggest points of that is 3:27:07.840 --> 3:27:11.120 to have control. How many artists have recorded records and 3:27:11.160 --> 3:27:13.440 they're just sitting there. So I think the biggest factor 3:27:13.520 --> 3:27:16.280 and staying independent is to have that control of of 3:27:16.680 --> 3:27:19.760 doing your career the way you wanted to. UM. I've 3:27:19.800 --> 3:27:22.600 been on both sides of the majors in the Indies. 3:27:22.640 --> 3:27:25.920 I spent my first fifty or sixty decades at a 3:27:26.040 --> 3:27:29.880 major and my last sixty decades on the indie side. UM. 3:27:29.959 --> 3:27:32.680 I think right now you know the answer is. I 3:27:32.760 --> 3:27:37.320 don't think it's radio or Spotify or TV or festivals 3:27:37.400 --> 3:27:39.960 or it's almost like what you did with Gaga is 3:27:40.000 --> 3:27:42.600 you ran around and did everything you know, I think 3:27:42.640 --> 3:27:45.680 the future kind of is the past. I was preceded 3:27:45.720 --> 3:27:49.040 by a guy named Juggie Gayles, and Juggie was like 3:27:49.160 --> 3:27:51.440 a song he was he was a plugger. They called 3:27:51.480 --> 3:27:54.400 him song Fluggers and they just went everywhere they went, 3:27:54.520 --> 3:27:56.720 you know, and you go everywhere. You have this intuition 3:27:57.040 --> 3:27:59.640 and you navigate it and try to you know, fan 3:27:59.720 --> 3:28:02.240 the aims. I I think, you know, you brought up 3:28:02.280 --> 3:28:06.120 research and radio's research. I don't think the concept of 3:28:06.200 --> 3:28:09.840 research isn't incorrect. Like I look at the research on Spotify. 3:28:10.000 --> 3:28:12.480 You're looking at what people are really doing. I think 3:28:12.640 --> 3:28:17.080 radio buildings archaic um call out research paradigm where they 3:28:17.200 --> 3:28:19.840 feel they can look in the rear view mirror or 3:28:19.840 --> 3:28:22.120 as those are the people who are listening to their stations. 3:28:22.360 --> 3:28:25.199 And that's that's what the problem is. It's it's they're 3:28:25.280 --> 3:28:29.040 so entrenched in that system and that's what's hurting them to, 3:28:29.320 --> 3:28:32.440 you know, to move to towards the future. Um. I 3:28:32.680 --> 3:28:37.160 was um thinking about Spotify. I was thinking about consumption. 3:28:37.240 --> 3:28:39.640 Everything is about you know, you when you look at 3:28:39.680 --> 3:28:42.160 the numbers on wrap or Wrap Cavy or a hip hop, 3:28:42.480 --> 3:28:45.960 there tend to one right. Oh and yet where you 3:28:46.040 --> 3:28:48.560 may tend to one in terms of like I look 3:28:48.640 --> 3:28:51.959 at the amount of followers, the amount of listeners, the amount, 3:28:52.240 --> 3:28:55.760 how how huge hip hop is right now, And I 3:28:55.920 --> 3:28:59.760 was thinking about the live business, about about these festivals. 3:29:00.520 --> 3:29:03.800 I'm getting to the question, um, when when you're looking 3:29:03.840 --> 3:29:08.240 at these festivals now, Lallapalooza, bonar Ruaisia. Every day there's 3:29:08.280 --> 3:29:12.039 more and more festivals and what's driving them and it's it's, Um, 3:29:12.640 --> 3:29:15.040 the irony is that it's a time when people can 3:29:15.080 --> 3:29:17.640 be alone, they can sit in their house and be 3:29:17.840 --> 3:29:20.840 on the internet. They're all going out to these festivals 3:29:20.920 --> 3:29:24.640 and all you know, it's it's it's fascinating to me. 3:29:25.320 --> 3:29:27.560 And when I look at these festivals and I look 3:29:27.600 --> 3:29:29.240 at again, I'm not in the touring side. I'm on 3:29:29.280 --> 3:29:33.320 the recorded music side, but that that's being driven a 3:29:33.360 --> 3:29:36.320 lot by alternative and rock more than I think, you know, 3:29:36.400 --> 3:29:39.200 on the hip hop side. And my question to you is, 3:29:39.240 --> 3:29:42.920 why do you think there's such a disparity between you know, 3:29:43.160 --> 3:29:45.480 the recorded music side, the hip hop and the wrap 3:29:45.800 --> 3:29:48.160 and the live business where these people are coming out 3:29:48.200 --> 3:29:51.760 in droves. Why is the recorded music and have such 3:29:51.800 --> 3:29:54.200 a higher demand, you know, on the hip hop side 3:29:54.600 --> 3:29:58.080 compared to I don't think it's a disparity at all. Like, 3:29:58.640 --> 3:30:02.680 you know, you see hip hop acts that are selling 3:30:03.040 --> 3:30:06.240 you know, arenas out every every single night of the week. 3:30:06.400 --> 3:30:08.280 So I like, I don't think it's I don't think 3:30:08.280 --> 3:30:11.280 it's a disparity. And then when you look at you know, 3:30:11.360 --> 3:30:14.680 I think they're especially with the younger consumer like a 3:30:14.720 --> 3:30:18.680 Cachella consumer or or Lollapalooza. You know, you look at 3:30:18.760 --> 3:30:21.640 the festival lineups and its diverse, you know, and I 3:30:21.720 --> 3:30:25.640 think the diversity, yeah, I think the diversity and and um, 3:30:26.360 --> 3:30:29.480 even with this past Catchella is a reflection of the 3:30:29.640 --> 3:30:32.960 way you know, kids are listening to music, so where 3:30:33.000 --> 3:30:37.120 they are listening to all different all different types. Huh, 3:30:37.280 --> 3:30:39.360 it was Mike right here. I don't, I don't. It's 3:30:39.400 --> 3:30:41.200 not that it's catching up. I don't think it was 3:30:41.320 --> 3:30:44.360 ever behind. Actually I think it was behind. I think 3:30:44.360 --> 3:30:47.160 a lot of the festivals were booked by old white guys. 3:30:47.360 --> 3:30:50.200 But but when you say live, live and festivals are 3:30:50.240 --> 3:30:53.000 two different things. The lot, the lot, the live business 3:30:53.080 --> 3:30:56.080 has never been, never been behind. But like I think 3:30:56.200 --> 3:30:59.680 festivals realized they had to wake up and diversify the business. 3:30:59.720 --> 3:31:12.400 If they wanted to keep with the with the consumer. Okay, 3:31:12.440 --> 3:31:17.879 gentlemen here, Okay, yeah, um, going back, I think Bob, 3:31:17.959 --> 3:31:22.160 you're you actually asked a question about uh, possibly labels 3:31:22.200 --> 3:31:25.039 controlling too much of what gets to the list. Um 3:31:25.120 --> 3:31:28.360 you made a comment about the hype. Is you know 3:31:28.480 --> 3:31:32.120 there's no hype, it's the numbers don't lie? Um which 3:31:32.240 --> 3:31:37.360 list though? Well, because it's fortylists right, right, So here's 3:31:37.400 --> 3:31:41.320 my question is of those how many? How many editors 3:31:41.360 --> 3:31:43.720 are there? And then sort of the part two is, 3:31:44.360 --> 3:31:46.959 let's take an act that has no touring base, right, 3:31:47.280 --> 3:31:49.800 and I'm gonna use some old terms, but you can 3:31:49.840 --> 3:31:52.360 never get to call out without having the ad, right, 3:31:52.440 --> 3:31:54.280 So you've got to have that initial ad before you 3:31:54.280 --> 3:31:57.480 can get to call out. So before you can get 3:31:57.520 --> 3:31:59.560 the numbers, there has to be some amount of hype 3:31:59.640 --> 3:32:02.160 or some amount of connection to those editors, right, No, 3:32:02.480 --> 3:32:04.480 not at all, Like it's it's just a it's a 3:32:04.640 --> 3:32:09.080 handful like So to answer, I'll answer if you your questions. 3:32:09.160 --> 3:32:14.040 So is is a few hundred editors globally at Spotify, 3:32:14.280 --> 3:32:20.240 across the across the different genres. Our editors especially and 3:32:20.480 --> 3:32:25.560 in certain specific genres, they pride like part of their 3:32:26.360 --> 3:32:30.520 culture is you got to find stuff before everybody else 3:32:30.640 --> 3:32:32.959 finds it. That's like that's part of hip hop culture, 3:32:33.000 --> 3:32:36.000 by the way, and part of Latin culture is as well. 3:32:36.520 --> 3:32:39.280 You want to get there early before anybody gets it. 3:32:39.760 --> 3:32:43.240 So they're looking for and they're competing with other services 3:32:43.360 --> 3:32:45.840 as well trying to find stuff. So a lot of 3:32:45.879 --> 3:32:51.119 the stuff that um Our editors are finding, like record 3:32:51.160 --> 3:32:55.480 companies call me every single day of the week trying 3:32:55.520 --> 3:32:59.280 to sign acts that are independent on on on Spotify. 3:32:59.400 --> 3:33:01.720 They're trying to nine these records that are that that 3:33:01.840 --> 3:33:04.920 are doing well. And then you know, in the reality 3:33:05.200 --> 3:33:08.599 and just when we look at some of the big categories, 3:33:09.840 --> 3:33:13.560 major labels are over index and all hit records you got, 3:33:13.800 --> 3:33:15.680 you know, so you know, when we talk about you know, 3:33:15.800 --> 3:33:22.520 certain name like certain categories that people come to me 3:33:22.680 --> 3:33:26.000 sort of complaining about, they can't name me any big 3:33:26.080 --> 3:33:28.440 acts in that in that category in the first place. 3:33:28.879 --> 3:33:31.440 So it's like, you know, I think major labels do 3:33:31.560 --> 3:33:35.840 an incredible job at making big top forty records, so 3:33:35.959 --> 3:33:40.200 that quite naturally they're gonna control a big portion of 3:33:40.800 --> 3:33:44.600 big top forty playlists. You know, when it comes to 3:33:45.280 --> 3:33:48.520 jazz music, maybe not so much. It comes to some 3:33:48.680 --> 3:33:52.040 other categories maybe maybe not so much, but I think 3:33:52.160 --> 3:33:54.800 it's um. I think it's one of those things that 3:33:54.959 --> 3:33:59.480 people have started talking about so much that people start 3:33:59.560 --> 3:34:02.640 believing that that that's actually the case. And I just 3:34:02.840 --> 3:34:08.840 come from I come from a school of hit records work, 3:34:10.320 --> 3:34:15.360 hit records work, Doug Morris. I remember going into Doug 3:34:15.440 --> 3:34:18.680 Morris's office after he left Universal and right before he 3:34:18.720 --> 3:34:23.920 went into Sony and UM, and he was asking me about, UM, 3:34:24.480 --> 3:34:27.160 what a record that that we that that I put 3:34:27.200 --> 3:34:29.440 out on one of our acts, and you know, and 3:34:29.480 --> 3:34:31.800 I said, you know what, the video was too dark? 3:34:32.200 --> 3:34:33.760 You know, I kind of saw this, you know, just 3:34:34.000 --> 3:34:37.240 change with the consumer, and you know it wasn't popping up. 3:34:37.480 --> 3:34:42.440 He said, no, it wasn't a hit. He said, it 3:34:42.600 --> 3:34:46.880 wasn't a hit. And that's the reality. Nobody wants to 3:34:46.959 --> 3:34:50.120 admit when their records aren't hits. So most of the 3:34:50.200 --> 3:34:53.439 complaints I get from people they don't have hit records. 3:34:58.280 --> 3:35:01.879 Over here. You mentioned that streaming is in its infancy. 3:35:02.080 --> 3:35:04.039 What does it look like when it's matured? And also 3:35:04.080 --> 3:35:07.440 based on the data, what emerging genres are there that 3:35:07.520 --> 3:35:09.880 you guys are seeing, Well, you know, I think you know, 3:35:09.959 --> 3:35:12.320 when you talk about when when it's mature, you know, 3:35:12.520 --> 3:35:16.200 and this is where I think we underestimate, you know, 3:35:16.840 --> 3:35:20.800 the size of of what the global recorded music market 3:35:20.920 --> 3:35:23.840 is going to be. So everybody talks about the sort 3:35:23.879 --> 3:35:28.000 of heyday of the record business at its height. And 3:35:28.120 --> 3:35:30.439 you know when we were selling selling a lot of CDs. 3:35:31.240 --> 3:35:33.880 More people are on on this planet are gonna have 3:35:34.120 --> 3:35:37.560 mobile phones than they had CD players. So and when 3:35:37.600 --> 3:35:43.199 you look at the amount of youth, the youth population 3:35:43.959 --> 3:35:48.120 that's rising in Africa and in India, you look at 3:35:48.240 --> 3:35:51.520 China that you know that's never been a factor, and 3:35:51.920 --> 3:35:56.680 how and the and the paid music market, I think 3:35:56.720 --> 3:36:00.120 it's gonna I think the music industry is gonna to 3:36:00.240 --> 3:36:04.000 go exponential growth like we've never seen before. I think 3:36:04.080 --> 3:36:07.160 what we have to adjust to, you know, we are 3:36:07.640 --> 3:36:12.120 I think as and I'm just saying is and just 3:36:12.320 --> 3:36:17.200 generally speaking the music industry we operate as elite like 3:36:17.360 --> 3:36:21.480 as elitists. So where we're under this impression that everybody 3:36:21.800 --> 3:36:24.960 is gonna buy a subscription, and everybody in the world 3:36:25.040 --> 3:36:28.240 in a ford. And if you look at the price 3:36:28.320 --> 3:36:32.040 of gas this week, people can't afford to put gas 3:36:32.120 --> 3:36:35.080 in their tank. People are barely making it in this country. 3:36:35.160 --> 3:36:41.080 People are struggling, and I think it's finding ways where Okay, 3:36:41.920 --> 3:36:46.240 whether it's through uh, you know, advertising subsidies or whatever. 3:36:46.640 --> 3:36:51.240 I think there's ways to monetize you know, a billion 3:36:51.320 --> 3:36:55.760 plus consumer base across you know, the the entire music industry. UM. 3:36:56.160 --> 3:36:58.640 I think data plans, you know, And that's one of 3:36:58.720 --> 3:37:00.600 the things we talked about last week with the new 3:37:00.720 --> 3:37:03.440 free tier was being able to you know, we built 3:37:03.520 --> 3:37:05.920 you know, lighter data plans because you know, so on 3:37:06.120 --> 3:37:08.480 on your phone, it's not eating up your data plan. 3:37:08.879 --> 3:37:12.280 So I think what's ahead of us is gonna is 3:37:13.560 --> 3:37:15.680 it's gonna. I think we're gonna see something like we 3:37:15.879 --> 3:37:19.560 we've never seen before. But but the market is um. 3:37:22.840 --> 3:37:24.360 I don't want to say a number, but I think 3:37:24.400 --> 3:37:27.119 it's way, way bigger than what we've ever seen. Young lady, 3:37:27.320 --> 3:37:31.000 right here, have you been waiting? I? UM? What about 3:37:31.040 --> 3:37:35.920 the role um of curators on the platform and independent curators. 3:37:36.320 --> 3:37:41.119 Is Spotify developing a program even for example radio stations, blogs, um, 3:37:41.520 --> 3:37:44.400 just independent curators. What I don't see anything being done 3:37:44.600 --> 3:37:48.560 for profiles for those entities and people. You you have 3:37:48.760 --> 3:37:53.000 independent curators that um, that are on the platform where 3:37:53.080 --> 3:37:55.879 you know where they and some people do a really 3:37:55.920 --> 3:37:58.160 good job at promoting their playlists and they you know, 3:37:58.280 --> 3:38:01.880 built followers. Uh um. You know, for us, our priority 3:38:02.000 --> 3:38:05.440 had to be our own and operated playlists, you know, 3:38:05.560 --> 3:38:08.680 because I think we were able to control the integrity 3:38:08.879 --> 3:38:11.760 of those playlists. And what I mean by that is 3:38:11.840 --> 3:38:15.320 just making sure it doesn't turn to a place where 3:38:15.480 --> 3:38:18.840 people can pay people to get on playlist and you 3:38:18.920 --> 3:38:22.279 know so and I think you know, when that ecosystem 3:38:22.360 --> 3:38:24.760 was open in the in the beginning, a lot of 3:38:24.879 --> 3:38:27.039 you know, we had to change the terms of services 3:38:27.440 --> 3:38:30.200 because you had a lot of people paying to get 3:38:30.240 --> 3:38:33.960 on playlists or you know, exchanging favors to get on 3:38:34.360 --> 3:38:37.040 to get on playlists. And the only thing that does 3:38:37.200 --> 3:38:43.600 is makes for uh a terrible consumer experience versus best 3:38:43.640 --> 3:38:47.200 song wins. So essentially, if we can program in a 3:38:47.320 --> 3:38:51.040 way where where best song wins is a better experience 3:38:51.080 --> 3:38:54.400 for the for the consumer. But we're not like there 3:38:54.480 --> 3:38:56.879 are a lot of brands and people who are building 3:38:56.920 --> 3:39:00.360 their their profiles. But our priority is is is owned 3:39:00.360 --> 3:39:04.080 and operated. Who has the mic? Now? Ye right here? 3:39:04.959 --> 3:39:08.280 I try just going back to the future of streaming UM, 3:39:09.280 --> 3:39:13.080 we see pricing differentiation for hires players like COB's entitle. 3:39:13.760 --> 3:39:17.320 UM do you think that's sustainable? And my second question is, UM, 3:39:17.680 --> 3:39:21.680 there's new UM streaming platforms like Prime Phonic, which are 3:39:21.680 --> 3:39:24.200 focused on classical music. Do you think the future will 3:39:24.240 --> 3:39:27.320 be sort of based on differentiation by genre or do 3:39:27.360 --> 3:39:30.320 you think the hardware ecosystem will dominate? You know, I 3:39:30.400 --> 3:39:34.000 think you know, just in my my opinion, I think UM, 3:39:34.160 --> 3:39:39.720 having a niche UM a knee service is deaf is difficult, right, 3:39:39.879 --> 3:39:44.160 you know, because when you can get and and everything 3:39:44.440 --> 3:39:47.480 essentially that you pretty much want to listen to him 3:39:47.760 --> 3:39:51.760 in one place, UM, you gotta have a compelling value 3:39:51.840 --> 3:39:55.520 proposition to drive somebody to pay specifically for that niche 3:39:55.560 --> 3:39:59.400 service and then UM this sort of financial models to 3:39:59.520 --> 3:40:01.920 operate as a business around that. And my I just 3:40:02.080 --> 3:40:05.000 think would be and it would be challenging, you know, 3:40:05.240 --> 3:40:08.040 especially as you're competing against you know, some some of 3:40:08.120 --> 3:40:10.720 the some of the larger players UM in terms of 3:40:10.920 --> 3:40:15.680 you know, fidelity you know you got I'm one of 3:40:15.760 --> 3:40:19.560 the the niche consumers that cares about you know, sound 3:40:20.040 --> 3:40:23.760 and and for me it's specifically for jazz music. Like 3:40:23.879 --> 3:40:26.520 when I listen to jazz and um, you know, I 3:40:26.600 --> 3:40:29.080 got high fidelity speakers. I want to listen to it 3:40:29.160 --> 3:40:33.240 and and and high fidelity. Um. But for a lot 3:40:33.360 --> 3:40:37.360 of the other records, is like, you don't need to 3:40:37.400 --> 3:40:39.760 listen to it in high fidelity, right, but you got 3:40:39.920 --> 3:40:43.680 to find a big enough audience that's willing to pay 3:40:43.800 --> 3:40:46.360 for it. Um. I'd love to get to a place 3:40:46.400 --> 3:40:49.400 where everybody cares about how how records you know, were 3:40:49.760 --> 3:40:52.600 intended to sound. But you know, I don't know if 3:40:52.640 --> 3:40:56.200 the general population, uh if that if that's something that 3:40:56.520 --> 3:41:00.160 they really genuinely care about. And I don't think you've 3:41:00.200 --> 3:41:08.240 been able to, um, how like, so when the jump 3:41:08.440 --> 3:41:13.320 from cassette to CD was so exponential in terms of sound, 3:41:13.879 --> 3:41:17.800 and the jump from vhs too, you know, DVD was 3:41:17.920 --> 3:41:21.000 so was was exponential in terms of you know, a 3:41:21.200 --> 3:41:24.840 visual and sound, we haven't been able to kind of 3:41:24.920 --> 3:41:28.520 give any sort of exponential jump yet to make people 3:41:28.640 --> 3:41:38.080 want to leap from from this to that. Ye just 3:41:38.240 --> 3:41:46.879 talk Yeah, I don't okay, Jamie, Jamie, you have a question. 3:41:50.080 --> 3:41:53.320 I probably good to see. Yeah, Um, I have two 3:41:53.400 --> 3:41:55.320 questions and I want to I'll cut it down to one. 3:41:55.560 --> 3:41:58.680 And so I'm large. Maria used to be at Pandora. 3:41:58.959 --> 3:42:01.279 The question that I have that I don't think anybody's 3:42:01.280 --> 3:42:04.160 asked you, what is the lowest hanging fruit that you 3:42:04.600 --> 3:42:07.280 think people are not picking off of Spotify right now? 3:42:07.440 --> 3:42:09.480 Used to drive me crazy that there were things I 3:42:09.520 --> 3:42:12.520 couldn't explain or I could explain, and people just wouldn't 3:42:12.600 --> 3:42:14.160 do it, Like what are they not doing? I mean, 3:42:14.200 --> 3:42:16.440 I think going back to what you say, People and 3:42:16.560 --> 3:42:20.040 lois just I'm talking about the the industry, you know, Um, 3:42:20.320 --> 3:42:22.200 you know, Mark was talking about how are you selling tickets? 3:42:22.240 --> 3:42:24.480 You're like, we just sold a hundred million dollars worth 3:42:24.480 --> 3:42:27.640 of tickets? Like what what across the board is the 3:42:27.720 --> 3:42:29.560 thing that people should be thinking about that they're not. 3:42:31.200 --> 3:42:34.920 I don't know, you know, Um, I think I don't 3:42:34.959 --> 3:42:37.600 know if I have an answer for the low hanging fruit, 3:42:37.760 --> 3:42:42.480 but I do think the industry one of the biggest 3:42:42.560 --> 3:42:48.279 problems that I see is this sort of people haven't 3:42:48.320 --> 3:42:52.280 been able to differentiate. People haven't been able to fully 3:42:52.400 --> 3:42:55.840 move into a new model yet because people still think 3:42:55.879 --> 3:43:00.080 we're a retailer. We're not a retailer. Um. People's to 3:43:00.280 --> 3:43:03.760 think we're like radio, where we're not radio like so 3:43:03.920 --> 3:43:07.160 even down to the point where the people still haven't 3:43:07.200 --> 3:43:10.080 figured out who at the company should really interface with 3:43:10.240 --> 3:43:12.480 us yet. Should it be a promo guy, is that 3:43:12.600 --> 3:43:15.680 the sales team? Is it marketing? Like? So, I think 3:43:15.760 --> 3:43:21.520 it's kind of understanding that this is a totally new system. 3:43:22.600 --> 3:43:25.200 The way the old system work doesn't work with with 3:43:25.400 --> 3:43:28.160 with with this, with this new system. And then so 3:43:28.720 --> 3:43:31.840 so and even down to going back to I get 3:43:31.959 --> 3:43:34.880 so many calls from people that say, I'm at a 3:43:34.959 --> 3:43:39.240 million streams and I'm like, a million streams is nothing, Like, 3:43:39.360 --> 3:43:42.000 it's not there yet. You gotta get there, like it's 3:43:42.200 --> 3:43:44.760 um but because people in the record business think a 3:43:44.840 --> 3:43:49.920 million records your platinum, a million streams isn't platinum, you know. 3:43:50.080 --> 3:43:53.560 So it's like, so it's this sort of uh chasm 3:43:53.680 --> 3:43:55.760 you got that that hasn't been crossed yet. So if 3:43:55.760 --> 3:43:58.160 I can steal a quick follow up on that. Cycles, 3:43:58.400 --> 3:44:02.480 how do you do you have insight to tell everybody 3:44:02.520 --> 3:44:05.600 about cycles? And how I mean cycles are different now 3:44:05.680 --> 3:44:09.000 in a streaming with types of cycles, song cycles, uh, 3:44:09.280 --> 3:44:13.400 career cycles, album cycles, all of that, who's doing it? Right? So? 3:44:13.680 --> 3:44:16.840 So the way so I look at it as perpetual cycles, right, 3:44:16.959 --> 3:44:19.640 so it's not there's no more on on on and off. 3:44:20.400 --> 3:44:24.320 And you know what what we see now is, you know, 3:44:24.640 --> 3:44:28.560 you look at Um you know, two good examples of 3:44:28.680 --> 3:44:33.000 like a Bruno Mars or at Sharon where their former 3:44:33.080 --> 3:44:40.960 albums just continue to kind of perform well. And Chain 3:44:41.040 --> 3:44:44.080 Smokers there. You know, I think Adam and And and 3:44:44.200 --> 3:44:47.600 those guys are are really brilliant in terms of how 3:44:47.680 --> 3:44:50.200 they they're They're just innovative in their approach to to 3:44:50.560 --> 3:44:54.120 release the music, the hip hop game in general. I 3:44:54.160 --> 3:44:57.480 would just say, you know, they win blue you know, 3:44:57.640 --> 3:45:01.280 they win gold Star in terms of being able to um, 3:45:02.040 --> 3:45:05.959 to cater to new concert to the way consumers consume 3:45:06.680 --> 3:45:10.840 and um. And it's just it bugs me out because 3:45:10.879 --> 3:45:15.320 the record business we used to be so forward and 3:45:17.560 --> 3:45:22.879 how like when we we turned Tuesdays into events right 3:45:23.040 --> 3:45:27.000 where it was, you know, when we put out albums, 3:45:27.080 --> 3:45:30.640 the way we set up set up albums, film studios 3:45:30.680 --> 3:45:33.160 were envied away. You know that that that we did it. 3:45:33.800 --> 3:45:40.600 And but yet Netflix is kicking our ass and innovation 3:45:41.040 --> 3:45:47.600 of releases. You know, so when you released you know, 3:45:48.680 --> 3:45:50.880 I was telling I was at one of the record 3:45:50.959 --> 3:45:53.840 labels and they were talking about all of their new 3:45:53.920 --> 3:45:57.640 acts that broke on, you know, because I was complaining 3:45:57.720 --> 3:46:01.480 about artists development, and I'm like, you gotta build stars, 3:46:01.720 --> 3:46:04.760 Like just because they're getting streams don't mean that their stars. 3:46:05.200 --> 3:46:07.520 And they're telling me what we broke this act this year, 3:46:07.640 --> 3:46:09.480 this act, this year, this act this year, and this 3:46:09.640 --> 3:46:13.080 act this year. I said, I'll tell you what if 3:46:14.200 --> 3:46:17.560 you took those four artists right now and they got 3:46:17.600 --> 3:46:19.720 out of their car in front of the school that's 3:46:19.760 --> 3:46:23.320 across the street, and you took the kids from Stranger 3:46:23.440 --> 3:46:27.320 Things and they got out of the car, every kid's 3:46:27.320 --> 3:46:31.080 gonna run to the kids from Stranger things. Like that's 3:46:31.240 --> 3:46:34.560 this year's one direction. We don't have a one direction 3:46:34.720 --> 3:46:37.880 right now. That's one direction right now. You look at 3:46:37.959 --> 3:46:44.279 how we're still releasing single single, single album. You're releasing 3:46:44.440 --> 3:46:48.199 three singles before album, and Netflix is dropping the whole 3:46:48.320 --> 3:46:52.560 season on you day day one because everybody wants it there. 3:46:52.840 --> 3:46:54.800 And I asked the record I asked the record label, 3:46:54.800 --> 3:46:56.240 I said, why are you still doing it like that? 3:46:56.560 --> 3:47:00.240 Because the radio, you want to build up a an 3:47:00.240 --> 3:47:04.400 audience first, because the first week, first week means zero, 3:47:05.400 --> 3:47:08.760 first week means nothing anymore. So, so it's kind of 3:47:08.840 --> 3:47:11.199 just getting people to cross over to the new world. 3:47:11.680 --> 3:47:15.320 And and and I'm seeing some younger labels and some 3:47:15.480 --> 3:47:19.359 younger artists right now and that has no historical baggage. 3:47:19.840 --> 3:47:22.959 That are you know, plowing their way into into into 3:47:23.040 --> 3:47:28.200 the new world very quickly. Single album? If you're a 3:47:28.280 --> 3:47:30.920 new artist, should people even bother to make albums or 3:47:30.959 --> 3:47:33.480 continue to put out a continuous dreament product? If if 3:47:33.520 --> 3:47:35.960 you can make a great album, make an album. The 3:47:36.040 --> 3:47:40.160 problem is, you know, making a great album. That's a 3:47:40.240 --> 3:47:46.000 big challenge. Jamie. You said something, uh that really kind 3:47:46.080 --> 3:47:51.280 of perked my ears up a bit. Um. You said 3:47:51.360 --> 3:47:54.760 that radio is in trouble, and I absolutely agree. And 3:47:54.840 --> 3:47:59.280 I think that you're that Spotify's integration into automobiles is 3:47:59.480 --> 3:48:02.560 going to even put another nail in that coffin. But 3:48:02.760 --> 3:48:05.959 we aren't there yet. We aren't. Radio is not dead yet. 3:48:06.600 --> 3:48:10.119 So you had said something that you did with Gaga 3:48:10.320 --> 3:48:15.760 where it was um social media and YouTube and getting 3:48:15.800 --> 3:48:17.520 the music out there so that by the time it 3:48:17.600 --> 3:48:21.120 went to radio and they were doing their testing, that 3:48:21.560 --> 3:48:24.280 everybody was already familiar with it, so it tested really well. 3:48:25.560 --> 3:48:29.280 Later you said that labels kind of have to pick. 3:48:29.840 --> 3:48:32.640 Are you going to go the radio route where you 3:48:32.720 --> 3:48:35.800 put a half million dollars behind a track, or are 3:48:35.920 --> 3:48:39.960 you going to go the Spotify route? And like, I 3:48:40.920 --> 3:48:43.600 does a label really have to choose or should they 3:48:43.760 --> 3:48:45.640 just be working it back? So let me let me 3:48:45.680 --> 3:48:48.120 clarify it. So so I don't think you have to 3:48:48.200 --> 3:48:52.040 choose between going to Spotify or going to radio. So 3:48:52.160 --> 3:48:55.320 I was talking specifically around if you have a single 3:48:56.280 --> 3:49:02.400 and you start the single off and Spotify, by the 3:49:02.600 --> 3:49:05.920 time you build up that big enough story for radio, 3:49:06.600 --> 3:49:09.200 chances are it's gonna be old. That single is gonna 3:49:09.240 --> 3:49:12.880 be over on our platform. Yes, so so, but what 3:49:13.000 --> 3:49:16.560 we get a lot is complaints that we're not hanging 3:49:16.600 --> 3:49:19.840 in there long enough on the single because it's not building, 3:49:19.920 --> 3:49:23.280 it's not uh linking in uh, it's not fused with 3:49:23.320 --> 3:49:28.400 their radio stories essentially. And I think for us, it's 3:49:28.440 --> 3:49:32.160 not our that that's just not our problem because because 3:49:32.240 --> 3:49:36.120 only we gotta we gotta do we have to build 3:49:36.160 --> 3:49:39.040 the great experience for the consumer. That's the like, that's 3:49:39.080 --> 3:49:41.120 our number one thing. It has to be a great 3:49:41.160 --> 3:49:44.640 experience for the consumer. And um so so that's where 3:49:44.800 --> 3:49:47.600 that's the sort of catch twenty two that we're finding. 3:49:48.360 --> 3:49:51.880 You know, some some of the labels in Okay, this gentleman, 3:49:51.880 --> 3:49:56.000 this is the last question for now, my Troy. UM 3:49:56.680 --> 3:49:59.400 a bit of a tech nerd question because you were 3:49:59.440 --> 3:50:04.080 saying you've building out a marketplace and then Daniel living 3:50:04.400 --> 3:50:08.160 ten years ahead of us. How much is which extent 3:50:08.680 --> 3:50:16.760 is AI and blockchain part of the discussion? UM? You know, UM, 3:50:17.880 --> 3:50:20.320 some I can comment on, some I can't comment on. UM. 3:50:20.480 --> 3:50:24.320 I think it's just AI in general. You know, it's 3:50:27.160 --> 3:50:30.200 the future, you know, I think, you know, machine learning 3:50:30.240 --> 3:50:32.240 as part of what we already do in terms if 3:50:32.280 --> 3:50:35.280 you look at Discover weekly, Discover weekly as machine learning 3:50:35.880 --> 3:50:40.840 and UM, and I think the more data that you 3:50:40.960 --> 3:50:43.840 get the better than machines get. Right, So I think 3:50:43.880 --> 3:50:47.560 it's gonna play a huge role. And I don't think 3:50:47.600 --> 3:50:51.320 it necessarily has as much to do with marketplace as 3:50:51.440 --> 3:50:54.360 much as it has to do with the personalization that 3:50:54.560 --> 3:50:57.240 that that that we're talking about and just being able 3:50:57.280 --> 3:50:59.720 to make the experience better for you when you when 3:50:59.720 --> 3:51:02.680 you up come on the platform. But I just don't think, 3:51:02.760 --> 3:51:05.320 you know, we we kind of got a sense that 3:51:05.360 --> 3:51:07.920 where machine learning is gonna gonna take us, the marketplace 3:51:08.120 --> 3:51:12.120 was more directed towards the block chain. I can't comment, 3:51:13.280 --> 3:51:16.240 thank you, but you've been very open and honest. We've 3:51:16.280 --> 3:51:26.280 put you through the rigger for two hours. And by 3:51:26.320 --> 3:51:29.360 the way, I love Bob and Aga Hattie's conversations. I say, 3:51:29.640 --> 3:51:31.480 I got so many questions in my head, and I mean, 3:51:31.560 --> 3:51:34.440 we're off the audience. But when I say, on some level, 3:51:34.480 --> 3:51:37.160 we only scratched the surface. That's supposed to Howard Stern 3:51:37.240 --> 3:51:39.640 saying you said everything, You've only said a little bit. 3:51:40.360 --> 3:51:42.760 But it's been so wonderful that you've come here and 3:51:43.120 --> 3:51:46.560 uh endured this for two hours. Troy, thanks again, thank you, 3:51:46.720 --> 3:51:56.840 thank you. I'm sure you dug that I loved. Troy 3:51:56.920 --> 3:52:00.800 is such an animated character, whether he's telling stories working 3:52:00.840 --> 3:52:04.000 in Spotify now, are hustling back in the early days 3:52:04.320 --> 3:52:10.520 in Philadelphia and in California. So once again you're listening 3:52:10.600 --> 3:52:14.640 to the Bob left Sex Podcast Troy Carter, recorded live 3:52:15.000 --> 3:52:18.720 at the Music Media Summit in Santa Barbara, California. I 3:52:18.920 --> 3:52:22.240 hope you enjoyed this conversation. I know you love Troy 3:52:22.440 --> 3:52:25.880 just like me. Until next time, I'm Bob left Sez 3:52:30.880 --> 3:52:36.240 Meta