1 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 1: is Robert Lambin. Today we have a vault episode for you. 3 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: Of course, this is going to be our second episode 4 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: in the four part Life in the Hypogean World series. 5 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: So without further ado, let's dive right. 6 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 2: In Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 7 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 8 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:37,480 Speaker 1: is Robert. 9 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 3: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick. And hey, we are 10 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:44,520 Speaker 3: back with part two of our series on cave ecosystems 11 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:49,959 Speaker 3: and Hypogean biology. Cave biology. In the last episode, we 12 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 3: talked about some of the characteristic features of cave ecosystems 13 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 3: and then we ended up discussing how lightless cave environments 14 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 3: shaped the evolution of a creature called Astianax Mexicanus, or 15 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 3: the blind Mexican cavefish, also known as the Mexican tetra, 16 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:13,320 Speaker 3: of which many populations have adapted to life in subterranean 17 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 3: waterways by losing their eyes and the pigments in their flesh. 18 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 3: We ended up kind of doing a deep dive on 19 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 3: the evolutionary logic of this why an animal population that 20 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:29,399 Speaker 3: once had eyes and skin pigment would adapt over many 21 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:33,119 Speaker 3: generations to lose those traits in a cave. So if 22 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 3: you haven't heard part one yet, you should probably go 23 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 3: back and check that one out first. But we are 24 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 3: back again today to talk about some more elements of 25 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 3: cave biology. Specifically, one of the things I wanted to 26 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:45,960 Speaker 3: get into we didn't really have time for last time, 27 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 3: was something else about blind Mexican cavefish, which is, if 28 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 3: they have no sight, what do they do? How do 29 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 3: they navigate their environment and forage for food? 30 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: And this is key because they've got to eat something. 31 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 1: These are extreme environments that are generally regarded as not 32 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: being the most bountiful places to scrape out a livelihood 33 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: as an organism. 34 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 3: Right, and there might be some advantages to living in 35 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 3: the cave if you are a fish like this, Like 36 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 3: there might be fewer predators than you would encounter in 37 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,239 Speaker 3: the world above, but there are also fewer food resources, 38 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 3: so you know, you have to have to kind of 39 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 3: like shift your specialization. 40 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, if I was to decide, again this is 41 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: a non evolutionary example, but if I was to decide 42 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: I am going to now live in my local Ikea store, well, 43 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 1: you know, I've got to figure out some new things. Right, 44 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 1: It's going to be easy to find a bed when 45 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: the lights go out, but I'm going to have to 46 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 1: deal with the night security. My diet is going to 47 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 1: consist entirely of Ikea food. So if you like Lingenberry, yeah, yeah, 48 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 1: make sure you don't have a Lingenberry allergy for sure. 49 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 3: Yeah. So I wanted to explore this question of how 50 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 3: do blind cavefish since their surroundings, and so I was 51 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 3: looking into this and I discovered that apparently one major 52 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 3: sense mechanism that they rely on is what's known as 53 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 3: the lateral line system. And this is not a sense 54 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 3: that is unique to blind cavefish. The lateral line system 55 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 3: is found in lots of aquatic vertebrates, even those that 56 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 3: can see. Though in blind fish there are usually enhancements 57 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 3: to this system. So it's a sense that they already have, 58 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 3: but it gets stronger in the cave evolved variants. As 59 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 3: a side note, I always really enjoy imagining types of 60 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 3: senses that humans don't have, Like what it would be 61 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 3: like to have a different kind of sense, you know, 62 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 3: like electro reception or magnetic perception or something like that. 63 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 3: And this sense in particular, I'm very excited to try 64 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 3: to imagine because it's very spooky trying to imagine it. 65 00:03:56,480 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 3: It's something about it feels almost kind of Halloween. This 66 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 3: might make more sense once I explain it. So, the 67 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 3: basic function of the lateral line system is to detect 68 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 3: movements in the water surrounding the animal through high sensitivity 69 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 3: to changes in water pressure. This system it runs along 70 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 3: the length of an animal like a fish, so there'll 71 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 3: be sort of canals of the lateral line sensing organs 72 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 3: around the head of the fish and then running lengthwise 73 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 3: along the body. The system uses sensory organs known as 74 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 3: neuro masts, which contain little hairs suspended within a kind 75 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 3: of jelly filled capsule that bends in response to changes 76 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 3: in water pressure and flow. And then these little hairs 77 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 3: are connected to nerve cells that are strung along the 78 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 3: lateral line system like Christmas tree lights. Sometimes the neuromasts 79 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 3: are exposed to the water on the outside of the skin. 80 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 3: They're just right on the outside of the skin, but 81 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 3: other times they are contained within a kind of duct 82 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:10,119 Speaker 3: or canal that is just under the surface of the skin. 83 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 3: And either way, the purpose of the lateral line system 84 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 3: is to detect vibrations, movements, and objects within the water 85 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 3: by sensing these little changes in water pressure and flow. 86 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 3: So with this system, an animal can get feedback about 87 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 3: its own movement through the water, for one thing, but 88 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 3: it can also sense the presence of currents and nearby 89 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 3: solid masses, either moving or stationary, by the way they 90 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:45,280 Speaker 3: displace water as the fish moves through it. And this 91 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 3: is coming back to what I was saying a minute ago, 92 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 3: something about trying to imagine this is. Oh, it's very 93 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 3: evocative and a little bit scary, almost so imagining living 94 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 3: in a place of dark water. But you can sense 95 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:00,280 Speaker 3: objects around you by the way they move the water, 96 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 3: or by the way they change how the water moves 97 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:03,280 Speaker 3: around you. 98 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 1: Wow, I mean, we're getting right back into that Gollumn territory, 99 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: you know. I'm imagining Gollum sensing that that goblin that 100 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: has come down and is washing its hands in the 101 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 1: water and so forth on this lightless underground lake. And 102 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 1: to your point, it is so alien to try and 103 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: imagine this. I'm in the water a fair amount. I 104 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: swim laps most morning, though swimming this morning, and it's 105 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: still you know, it's a very visual exercise. You can 106 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,600 Speaker 1: set you can feel things in the water, obviously you can, 107 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: and Lord knows, there's a lot to see and feel 108 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 1: in a ymca pool. You know, there are people doing 109 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: exercise classes, there are people swimming laps next to you, 110 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: sometimes very often in the same lane with you, and 111 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:52,160 Speaker 1: you pick up on those movements, but nowhere near this 112 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 1: level of detail. You know, this is like compared to 113 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 1: what we have. This is like a second site. 114 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, I kind of ghostly vision through which you can 115 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 3: sense things around you by the way they move the 116 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 3: water against your body. 117 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. 118 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 3: So anyway, the astianax fish, the Mexican blind cavefish apparently 119 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 3: compensate for their lack of vision by having a more 120 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 3: sensitive lateral line system than their surface dwelling cousins, and 121 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 3: this helps them navigate, forage and survive in their lightless environment. 122 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 3: But this way of living depends not just on heightened 123 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 3: sensitivity to water displacement, but also on changes to behavior. 124 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 3: For example, one thing I was reading about is that 125 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 3: when preparing to mate, apparently male and female blind cavefish 126 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 3: engage in this in these patterns of exaggerated movements of 127 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 3: various body parts like the mouth and the gills, and 128 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 3: these movements are thought to perhaps help the mating partners 129 00:07:55,880 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 3: find and identify one another without visual cues, does some sense, 130 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 3: like moving around in the water more so that they 131 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 3: can locate one another. Of course, the fish also have 132 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 3: changes to their metabolism to allow them to survive in 133 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 3: a place where food is less abundant than it is 134 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 3: on the surface, so they are thought to have slower 135 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 3: metabolisms to need less food energy. But also I was 136 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 3: reading about an interesting twenty seventeen study published in PLUS 137 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 3: one by some researchers associated with the University of Cincinnati, 138 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 3: and this was on the role of a symmetry in 139 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 3: blind cavefish evolution. We actually did a whole series on 140 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 3: asymmetry and animals a while back in which we talked 141 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 3: about fiddler crabs and such, you know, fiddler crabs having 142 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 3: one claw much much bigger than the other. But we 143 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:46,679 Speaker 3: talked about a lot of examples in the animal world, 144 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 3: and I remember that being a very interesting series. 145 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a fun one for sure. You know, 146 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: some of the outrageous examples in some of the less 147 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:58,439 Speaker 1: obvious examples of asymmetry. 148 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 3: Apparently there is a bit of hidden asymmetry in the 149 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 3: blind Mexican cavefish as well. So let's see. This study 150 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:08,599 Speaker 3: was by Amandicaate Powers Aeronym Davis, Shane A. Kaplan and 151 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 3: Joshua be Gross, published in Plus one in twenty seventeen, 152 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 3: and it was called Cranial asymmetry arises later in the 153 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 3: Life History of the blind Mexican cavefish Astianax Mexicanus. And 154 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 3: so we were talking in the previous episode about how 155 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 3: in some of these cavefish populations the fish are not 156 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 3: without eyes from the very beginning. Rather, they do grow 157 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 3: eyes initially in embryonic development, but then the eyes go 158 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 3: through what's called regression where they are absorbed and disappear 159 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 3: as the fish grows, and then the bone around the 160 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 3: eye socket collapses in by the time the fish as 161 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 3: an adult. Young cavefish apparently start life with fairly symmetrical bodies, 162 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 3: and the surface variants in the rivers above where there's 163 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 3: plenty of light also have fairly symmetrical bodies even as adults. 164 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 3: But the young cavefish start out fairly symmetrical, and then 165 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 3: as they mature, a mismatch develops in how the bones 166 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 3: on either side of their skull take shape, and this 167 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 3: asymmetry in their cranial bones seems to match a difference 168 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 3: in behavior between the cave variant of the tetras and 169 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 3: the surface variant still has eyes. The surface variant, when 170 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 3: you place it in a fish tank, will swim in 171 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 3: more random patterns or will just kind of float without 172 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 3: moving in the shaded portions of the tank. The cave variant, 173 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 3: on the other hand, will just keep it'll keep swimming 174 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 3: in circles around the edges of its tank, and this 175 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 3: matches with the fact that has been observed in the wild. 176 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 3: In its natural environment, the cave variant will tend to 177 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 3: follow the rocky walls of the pool where it lives, 178 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:57,199 Speaker 3: swimming counterclockwise around these boundaries in an endless loop. And 179 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:00,679 Speaker 3: one of the studies authors, Amanda Powers, was quoted in 180 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 3: a press release about the research, explaining quote, you could 181 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 3: see how asymmetry might be an advantage in navigation. They 182 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 3: tend to swim in a unidirectional circular motion around their 183 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 3: tanks to explore their surroundings. Having asymmetry in their skull, 184 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 3: we think is attributed to handedness. If their skull is 185 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 3: bent to the left, they could be right handed. They're 186 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 3: feeling the wall to the right with their sensory structures. 187 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 3: Oh wow, Yeah, so it seems that the cavefish have 188 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:35,599 Speaker 3: a type of developmental handedness that correlates to a navigation 189 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 3: behavior where they follow the walls of their natural enclosure 190 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 3: in this slow, counterclockwise lapping motion. Though I think it's 191 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 3: still not fully understood how this system emerges, if it 192 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 3: helps them survive how, we don't fully know yet, but 193 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:58,479 Speaker 3: it's interesting to imagine why. Another interesting sort of unrelated 194 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 3: thing that I was just reading in this press release, 195 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 3: also quoting the same author of the paper, I mean powers, 196 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,319 Speaker 3: talking about how she and colleagues went into the caves 197 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 3: to observe these fish, and she says in this article quote, 198 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 3: whenever you would touch the surface of the water with 199 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:16,959 Speaker 3: your finger, a swarm of cavefish would come right up 200 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 3: to it. Not many fish would do that. These cavefish 201 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 3: have zero predators, so they're not afraid. 202 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: Oh wow, that you know. That reminds me of other 203 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: examples we've talked about in the show, like various birds 204 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: of the Galapagos Islands, for example. It reminds me of 205 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: some stuff I was just reading the other day about 206 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 1: the dodo bird. You know, where you have these organisms 207 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:44,439 Speaker 1: that adapt over evolutionary time to an environment where there 208 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: are no predators or there is just an entirely different 209 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: predation situation going on, and yeah, they just lose their fear. 210 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 1: There's no need to engage in that kind of protective 211 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: behavior because those things don't exist for them until they 212 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: show up on a bub Yeah. 213 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, dutch. Okay, So that's lateral line sensations, and then 214 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 3: the asymmetry of the skull, the kind of the circling behavior, 215 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 3: all those differences. But there was one more thing I 216 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 3: wanted to talk about. I mentioned in the previous episode 217 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 3: another sensory enhancement found in some of these cavefish, and 218 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 3: that sensory enhancement was taste. It appeared to be involved 219 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 3: in a pliotropy. Remember that's where a single genetic change 220 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:34,959 Speaker 3: would result in multiple different changes in the phenotype in 221 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 3: the body or the behavior. And in this case, the 222 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 3: idea was that there was a single genetic change that 223 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 3: would result in both regression of the eyes. So this 224 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 3: process we talked about where the eyes are sort of 225 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:50,680 Speaker 3: absorbed and the adult fish doesn't have eyes, and then 226 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 3: along with that development of a greater number of taste buds. Now, 227 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 3: we speculated generally in the last episode that you know, 228 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,679 Speaker 3: having enhanced other senses in a cave would probably be 229 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 3: useful in some way. Taste buds are generally useful. They 230 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 3: are our body's chemistry set to know what we're putting 231 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 3: in the digestive tract. But I was wondering if there 232 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 3: was anything else we could know about that, like how 233 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 3: do these extra taste buds work in these fish? What 234 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 3: kind of benefit do they provide? So this is another 235 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 3: thing where the answer is not fully known yet we 236 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 3: know a few kind of interesting morsels. So I came 237 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 3: across a very recent paper addressing this question. It was 238 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 3: by Daniel Burning and Joshua B. Gross published in Frontiers 239 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 3: and Ecology and Evolution twenty twenty three, called the Constructive 240 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 3: Evolution of Taste in astianax Cavefish or Review. And one 241 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 3: of the things I thought was interesting here, Rob, I've 242 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 3: attached a I've attached a diagram for you to look at. 243 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 3: It seems that mostly what we're talking about are what's 244 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 3: called extra oral taste buds, taste buds that are not 245 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 3: inside the mouth like hours, but outside the mouth and 246 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 3: spread out over the jaws in the front of the face. 247 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 3: So in this diagram, it shows blind cavefish from a 248 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 3: couple of different populations compared to the surface variant with 249 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 3: taste buds filled in as red dots on the illustrations. 250 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 3: And while the surface variant looks like it is wearing lipstick, 251 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 3: you know, the red dots, the taste buds are on 252 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 3: the mouth, the cave fish are wearing clown makeup. The 253 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 3: taste buds are all over the face. 254 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's quite impressive, And again it makes sense for 255 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 1: this kind of an environment, you know, you need to 256 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: lean into a different sense situation. It reminds me a 257 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: bit of our past discussions about catfish being super tasters, 258 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 1: you know, and really when and again it come back 259 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: to that situation where we have our human understanding of 260 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: the senses, but we have a human level understanding of 261 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 1: those senses. And so when you're talking about something like 262 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: this that is enhanced, it's not taste as we know it, 263 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: it's something different. 264 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. So I was wondering, like, what do we 265 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 3: know about what kind of difference this makes? What difference 266 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 3: does it make in the lives of these fish? So 267 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 3: there were a few things mentioned in this review. One 268 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 3: is that multiple studies have found what appears to be 269 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 3: enhanced sensitivity to chemical repellence and taste sources in the 270 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 3: water in the cavefish when compared to the surface fish. 271 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 3: So just one example is a study by Humbach in 272 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 3: nineteen sixty that found in the cave fish compared to 273 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 3: the common minno, that the modality for bitter sensation was 274 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 3: three hundred times more acute roughly, and then the salty 275 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 3: slash acid slash sweet modality difference was about two thousand 276 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 3: to four thousand times more acute in the cavefish, so 277 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 3: much greater, much lower I guess threshold of sensitivity to 278 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 3: these tastes also protus at all. In two thousand and 279 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 3: eight found quote amino acids dissolved in system water were 280 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 3: detected at a much lower concentration in Paschone cavefish. That's 281 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 3: from one particular cave source paschone cavefish, compared to surface fish. 282 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 3: And one possible explanation the authors discuss for this heightened 283 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:29,400 Speaker 3: sensitivity to amino acids could be what they call the 284 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 3: savory taste receptor T one R one. This is the 285 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 3: receptor that binds to glutamate and helps us taste savory 286 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:42,640 Speaker 3: umami flavors. So I wonder if you could really get 287 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 3: these cavefish going bananas over something in the water, a 288 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 3: piece of food or whatever is dispersed in the water 289 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:50,880 Speaker 3: if you hit it with a bit of the good 290 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:51,640 Speaker 3: old MSG. 291 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 1: I bet, or maybe one of those little fish shaped soy. 292 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 3: Sauce. Yeah, we get soy sauce, some parmesan cheese, some tomatoes, 293 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:07,719 Speaker 3: some MSG, all the good savory things. However, the authors 294 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:10,439 Speaker 3: do say that several amino acids were used in the 295 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 3: study that found this, so there could be other explanations, 296 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 3: possibly also involving old faction rather than taste. But anyway, 297 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 3: what difference would these these taste bud arrangements and heightened 298 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 3: sensitivity to flavors make in terms of the behavior of 299 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 3: the fish the author's right quote. One recent study argued 300 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:36,439 Speaker 3: that external taste buds are used for preliminary assessment of 301 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 3: food items during random swimming or targeted searches for food. 302 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 3: Extra oral taste buds thus carry in importance for determining 303 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:50,119 Speaker 3: whether to pursue or avoid a food item. So the 304 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 3: way I understand that is it's heightening the fish's foraging 305 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:00,159 Speaker 3: efficiency basically by saying, before you even get something in 306 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 3: the mouth, you're tasting the water around this thing with 307 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 3: the front of your face, and it helps you zero 308 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 3: in more quickly on something that is good to eat 309 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 3: or is not good to eat. Like you're getting you're 310 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 3: getting an idea about whether you're coming close to a 311 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 3: good piece of food or not earlier. So that would 312 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:19,160 Speaker 3: make your foraging more efficient. 313 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: Okay, that makes sense. 314 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 3: In the end, however, they do say that that this 315 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 3: is just an area that hasn't had enough research yet. 316 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:31,399 Speaker 3: They say that the quote precise function of cavefish extraoral 317 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:35,879 Speaker 3: taste buds remains unclear and largely unexplored, and then they 318 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,639 Speaker 3: also say that future studies need to do things like 319 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 3: excluding the role of oldfaction or smell and isolating the 320 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 3: variable of taste. And there are differences that even remain 321 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:50,359 Speaker 3: that they did examine in the paper that we just 322 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,439 Speaker 3: don't know how to explain yet, but could possibly be 323 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 3: related to taste. One interesting idea they bring up is 324 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:00,920 Speaker 3: the feeding angle, so they you know, if you look 325 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:06,200 Speaker 3: at the cave variants of these fish versus the surface variants. 326 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 3: One thing you will notice is that they both go 327 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 3: along the bottom. Might there might be like a stony 328 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 3: or sandy or pebbly bottom of the water source where 329 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 3: they are, and they'll go along the bottom with their 330 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,160 Speaker 3: mouth down to the bottom, kind of searching for little 331 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,479 Speaker 3: bits of food to eat or you know, prey in 332 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 3: the case of you know, carnivory, or just little bits 333 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 3: of dead organic matter, whatever it is they're coming across 334 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 3: to eat. They're scouring the bottom for it. For some reason, 335 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:39,400 Speaker 3: the surface fish have a steeper angle that they forage 336 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 3: at with their body more it's almost more totally vertical, 337 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 3: whereas the cave fish tend to forage at a more 338 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:50,120 Speaker 3: slanted angle that's closer. It's more like fifty five degrees 339 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 3: from the bottom versus more like eighty degrees in the 340 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 3: surface variant. They say this could be related to the 341 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 3: changes in extraoral taste buds. Maybe it's you know, like 342 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 3: they're tasting things differently, thus they have to orient their 343 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 3: bodies differently. Don't know, but interesting question. 344 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean this this is fascinating to think about, 345 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,639 Speaker 1: Like it makes one wonder if it has something to 346 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: do with their being more predation opportunities for the surface fish, 347 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:23,159 Speaker 1: you know, like you've got to come in at that 348 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:27,919 Speaker 1: steeper angle because there's a greater risk of things, you know, 349 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: on the floor of the of the sea or what 350 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: have you, that might come after them while they're feeding. 351 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 1: And maybe those are absent in these cave environments. Again, 352 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: you know, we're talking about like a lack of just 353 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 1: biodiversity in those environments. You know, there's many fewer predators, 354 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: et cetera. But who knows. That's just me spitballing. 355 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:49,919 Speaker 3: I don't want to act like I'm just look at 356 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,159 Speaker 3: a diagram and a paper and answer the question. But 357 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 3: just one thing I wonder about is looking at the 358 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 3: looking again at the diagram of where these extraoral taste 359 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 3: buds are in the surface fish. Remember they're all like 360 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 3: right at the mouth, but in the in the cave variant, 361 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 3: a lot of them tend to be spread out along 362 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 3: the lower jaw. So I wonder if it can come 363 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 3: in at this shallower angle because it's sort of like 364 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,119 Speaker 3: feeling and tasting more along the bottom without having to 365 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 3: get the front of its mouth in contact with it. 366 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,160 Speaker 3: It can kind of taste with the slope of its 367 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 3: lower jaw. 368 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, that would make a lot of sense. 369 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 3: But yeah, again don't know interesting questions about Usually when 370 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 3: you when you think about fish and taste together, you're 371 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 3: thinking about what a fish tastes like to you, not 372 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:35,679 Speaker 3: what it's like to taste as a fish. 373 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, which again it can put you an entirely different 374 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 1: sense realities, especially considering things like a catfish. But also 375 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,879 Speaker 1: you know, getting into taste and smell. When whenever I 376 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:52,159 Speaker 1: read information about, you know, the distances at which fish 377 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: in the ocean can detect other things going on, say 378 00:22:55,480 --> 00:23:00,479 Speaker 1: blood in the water or some sort of rotting shoe, 379 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:03,919 Speaker 1: I'm always just amazed because again it is an experience 380 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: of the ocean that is just unlike anything we can 381 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 1: experience when we venture into it. And the same holds 382 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,680 Speaker 1: true of the cave. Like when we enter into the cave, 383 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: our experiences are rather different compared to the organisms that 384 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: have evolved to thrive there. Now the place I'd like 385 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,440 Speaker 1: to turn to next. This gets into something that was 386 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:39,120 Speaker 1: probably one of the key reasons I decided this would 387 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 1: be a good series for us to do, you know, 388 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: to return to cave biology. This and the fact that 389 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: I was also inspired by some environment related stuff at 390 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 1: the Bishop Museum on a Wahuo recently when I returned 391 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:55,399 Speaker 1: there and got to take in their natural history section 392 00:23:55,480 --> 00:24:00,200 Speaker 1: in addition to their cultural and historical sections. But yeah, 393 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: this is the revelation that really pushed me over the 394 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: edge that for many cave environments, batguano is sunlight. Ooh, batguano, 395 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: that's bat poop if you will, if you're not familiar 396 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 1: essentially in these environments, yes, this is the light of 397 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: the sun. This plays a vital role in the food 398 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,879 Speaker 1: chain because remember light is the first step in the 399 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: food chain of the Epigean world. Sunlight reaches the surface 400 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:37,920 Speaker 1: where photo autotrophic organisms create food via sunlight, carbon dioxide 401 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 1: and water. These are autotrophs, and we call this the 402 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:43,680 Speaker 1: trophic level of the food chain. 403 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 3: Right, So yeah, this came up in the last episode 404 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 3: that almost all of the food chain where we're really 405 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 3: familiar with is happening where the base layer of the 406 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,880 Speaker 3: food chain is using energy from the sunlight to make 407 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 3: its food and then we of course you know, other 408 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,159 Speaker 3: organisms eat those organisms and on and on it goes. 409 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 3: But if you don't have the sunlight to power the 410 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,160 Speaker 3: food synthesis at the base layer of the food chain, 411 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 3: what do you do. 412 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,400 Speaker 1: That's right, yeah, yeah, most of it depends on sunlight. 413 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 1: Plants are autotropes, as are seaweed phytal blanked in some 414 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 1: kinds of bacteria, including bacteria that produce their own food 415 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 1: vio chemosynthesis around volcanic vents. But most of the producers 416 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 1: are producing their own food via the process of photosynthesis 417 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 1: and therefore require the bounty of sunlight. The next trophic 418 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 1: layer of the food chain is, of course the primary 419 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:43,159 Speaker 1: consumers who eat the producers, the herbivores being chief among them. 420 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,679 Speaker 1: And then the predators compose the third trophic layer, the 421 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 1: secondary consumers, followed by the tertiary consumers and on up 422 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: to the apex predators. And then you have you know, 423 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:56,679 Speaker 1: you also have the other roles in there, the you know, 424 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 1: the scavengers, the decomposers, and so forth. Now, it's pointed 425 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 1: out by sakoy at All in The Life Hidden Inside Caves, 426 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:08,160 Speaker 1: published twenty twenty in the International Journal of Ecology. Cave 427 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 1: ecosystems are intrinsically devoid of primary productivity due to the 428 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 1: absence of light. Again, light may enter the opening of 429 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: a cave to different degrees, and other caves may feature 430 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 1: open areas or areas with sort of like naturally occurring skylights. 431 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,680 Speaker 1: But past those pools of light there is only darkness, 432 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,679 Speaker 1: and that means again no photo autotrophic organisms. 433 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 3: Right, So this raises a question of how could there 434 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 3: really be anything like an ecosystem inside a cave unless 435 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 3: I don't know, it was just like unless things were 436 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 3: coming and going from the outside to the inside constantly 437 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 3: and eating each other in between. You know, how could 438 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 3: there really be anything sustained within the cave purely in 439 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 3: the dark. 440 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,400 Speaker 1: And that's where bats enter the picture. We've of course 441 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,439 Speaker 1: talked about bats before. You have various species of bats 442 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:01,679 Speaker 1: that roost in cave and viral and do so in 443 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:08,159 Speaker 1: vast numbers. So batguano instead offers a major food source, 444 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: a kind of alternate sunshine, brown sunshine if you will, 445 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 1: that falls upon the floor of caverns where insectivore or 446 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 1: frugivorous bats roost. So yeah, batsidiat insects bats that eat fruit. 447 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 1: So we're talking about bat species that are generally nocturnal 448 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,399 Speaker 1: or crepuscular, that go out and feed and then return 449 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: to the seclusion of their caves where they roost on 450 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,159 Speaker 1: the ceiling and when they poop, they poop on the 451 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,919 Speaker 1: floor below them, and that poop brings in quite a 452 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:36,919 Speaker 1: few nutrients. 453 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:42,640 Speaker 3: So it's not like the base the photo autotroflayer outside, 454 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,400 Speaker 3: because in that case it is that would be organisms 455 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 3: that are fundamentally synthesizing chemical food energy out of what 456 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,640 Speaker 3: was originally inorganic sunlight energy. In this case, they are 457 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 3: bringing energy in already in the form of chemical food 458 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,639 Speaker 3: energy pooping it out on the floor, but it becomes 459 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 3: like a new base layer of a food chain within 460 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 3: the cave. 461 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 1: Exactly. Yes, And I will also add it is like 462 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,199 Speaker 1: sunlight in that you can replace the word sun or 463 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 1: sunlight with bat guano in any song lyric and it 464 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 1: will work just as well. So please feel free to 465 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 1: try that on your own time. 466 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 3: I'm walking on guano. 467 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it works. 468 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 3: It works perfectly, don't I feel good? 469 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:33,440 Speaker 1: So this guano often serves as the primary renewable organic 470 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 1: resource of these caves, and a whole food chain extends 471 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 1: from this, supporting various bacteria, fungi, uh protus, and small arthropods. Now, 472 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 1: according to Sokoi, at all, the exact blend of nutrients 473 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 1: is going to vary depending on broad category and specific 474 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: species of bat. But the end result is that the 475 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: fields of poop beneath the bats just become teeming with life, 476 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: life enough to support an ecosystem of organisms, including those 477 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: visiting from the outside, other creatures that spend part of 478 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: their time in the caves, and also of course obligate 479 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: cave dwellers that are there all the time. Also, this 480 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 1: was interesting, the fermentation of the biomass, along with the 481 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: presence of all those warm blooded bat colonies actually heats 482 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 1: up the caves. 483 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 3: Oh that's interesting. You know, that's a difference that is 484 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 3: acknowledged in some of the literature I've looked at, but 485 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 3: we haven't really talked about much. Which is a difference 486 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 3: between cave environments and the surface is not only the 487 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 3: lack of sunlight, but a much more constant temperature than 488 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 3: you get on the surface. Though I guess this could 489 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 3: be changed if yeah, you're bringing in a lot of biomass, 490 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 3: and that's sort of like warming up the cavern. 491 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, like at base level, it's like life in the 492 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: wine cellar. But then if you get enough life in 493 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 1: the wine cellar, well things they can have elevated temperatures, 494 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 1: but still going to be pretty dependable. It sounds like, though, 495 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 1: I guess you do have to factor in that there 496 00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 1: are sometimes fluctuations in these the occupation by bats and 497 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: so forth. 498 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 3: I do have to apologize I'm only half following the 499 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 3: conversation now because my brain is just running through song 500 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 3: lyrics like I've been waiting so long to be where 501 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 3: I'm going in the guano of your love of. 502 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 1: Guano on my shoulder shoulders makes me happy. Yeah, yeah, 503 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 1: I'm want to read a quote here from the sequoiad 504 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 1: All paper that gets into some of the details here 505 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 1: of the guano quote. For example, small metazoins such as mites, pseudoscorpions, beetles, thrips, mites, 506 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: and flies inhabit the guano of insectivorous bats, whereas the 507 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 1: guano of frugivorous vat bats is frequented by spiders, mites, isopods, millipedes, centipedes, waiters, 508 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: bark lice, and insects. Salamander and cavefish populations and invertebrate 509 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,959 Speaker 1: communities also rely heavily on nutrients from the bat guano. 510 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: They also point out that bat guano constitutes a niche 511 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 1: of several varieties of micro organisms. Includeing fungi, protus, lichen viruses, 512 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:04,719 Speaker 1: and bacteria. 513 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 3: I wonder if the bat guano is primarily sweet or savory. 514 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: I guess we'd have to ask those blind cavefish from earlier. 515 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, though, to be fair, in that quote, it just 516 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 3: said that the cavefish populations rely on nutrients from bat guano. 517 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 3: I don't know if that means they eat it directly 518 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 3: or they eat other things that eat it, or what. 519 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 1: True true that that is essential and I believe that 520 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 1: something sakoy at All point out is that it's yeah, 521 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: there aren't necessarily there are organisms that depend on the 522 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 1: guano that are not directly eating the guano, but they 523 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 1: are able to thrive on the things that do consume 524 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: and thrive on the guano directly. Now, it's it's also 525 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 1: worth noting that the presence of the bats themselves also 526 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: produces feeding and opportunities for either scavengers or predators. I'm 527 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: going to probably have more on this particular tidbit in 528 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: the next episode. And yeah, there's another interesting thing that 529 00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: they point out is all of this can potentially change 530 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 1: over time as well, you know, stable environments but not 531 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: necessarily eternal. I was reading a CBC Radio story about 532 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 1: a University of Ottawa study of bat guano in a 533 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 1: specific Jamaican cave or cave system. I believe this cave 534 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 1: is known as Home Away from Home cave. It's very 535 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 1: remote and it has been a subject of some scientific 536 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 1: study and they were looking at it and they were 537 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: able to observe a shift over in the past from 538 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 1: insect eating bats to fruit eating bats, though it was 539 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 1: unclear as of twenty twenty one if this was a 540 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 1: change in diet by a specific species or perhaps more 541 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: likely the influx of a different bat species that had 542 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 1: a different diet. They also found increased guano levels of cadmium, mercury, lead, 543 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: and zinc present during the same time as the Industrial Revolution, 544 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 1: so they were getting into like, you know, we can 545 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 1: see this change, We can see this environmental change brought 546 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: on by the Industrial Revolution in the of these bats 547 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:03,360 Speaker 1: in this remote Jamaican cave. 548 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 3: Heavy metal guano. 549 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. 550 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 1: Now, of course we have various other creatures besides the bat, 551 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 1: but also from the era of bats to consider that 552 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 1: are now extinct that would have entered into caves and 553 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 1: and would have defecated. We have like the cave bear, 554 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 1: that is extinct, the extinct cave hyena copy lights from 555 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 1: both of these species. Fossilized fecal matter has been discovered 556 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 1: in caves. Yeah, now another tidbit, and this is something 557 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: you could definitely go in deeper on. We could come 558 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 1: back to another episode in the future at some point. 559 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 1: Sequoiat All point out that the other thing about bat 560 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,239 Speaker 1: guano is that human beings figured out that, hey, this 561 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 1: stuff has value. So cave environments have also long been 562 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 1: exploited by human beings due to its economic value as 563 00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 1: a fertilizer and also, for at least for a while there, 564 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 1: it was harvested to produce gunpowder. And all of this 565 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 1: can impact these cave environments. Here's another interesting thing. Bats, 566 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: the bats that enter into these caves, these caves, they 567 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,399 Speaker 1: are not set in stone. They are changing. We just 568 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 1: discuss how these caves form over geologic time in the 569 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: first episode. But the bats by roosting in the caves 570 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 1: physically change them roosting on the ceiling with their little claws, 571 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 1: so that physically changes the cave. And then also there's 572 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:38,359 Speaker 1: chemical augmentation of the caves via their urination. Because yeah, 573 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: they're going both number one and number two in that 574 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 1: cave system and it does have an impact. 575 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,279 Speaker 3: Oh do you know if the urination does it primarily 576 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,719 Speaker 3: like build structures or dissolve parts of the cave. 577 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 1: I believe it is more dissolving. Yeah, okay, And again 578 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,480 Speaker 1: we're dealing often with limestone cave systems and so forth. 579 00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,880 Speaker 1: So that's my understanding here, because I know what you're thinking. 580 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 1: We end up with actual like. 581 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 3: Bat piece stalagmites. 582 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, bat piece stalagmites. I do not have an answer 583 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 1: to that, but I think it is more of a 584 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 1: dissolving of the cave system that is in play here. 585 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 3: Wait a minute, hold on, I just googled bat piece 586 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 3: stalagmites with large numbers of bats, thick and hard stalactites 587 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 3: and stalagmites of crystallized bat you'rein occasionally form. 588 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: Well, there you go. Okay, so that is also possible. 589 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 1: It's just a wonderful world down there. It's a whole 590 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 1: new world. 591 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 3: Sorry, I should say, since I read that directly, that 592 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,520 Speaker 3: was from something called the Internet Center for Wildlife Damage Management. 593 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 3: I don't know what that is, but that's what they claim. 594 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, there was another art. I didn't get into this 595 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:45,920 Speaker 1: article a lot. Maybe I could come back more in 596 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 1: the next episode. But there was a twenty twenty one 597 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,319 Speaker 1: article in The New York Times titled how bats and 598 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 1: their poop erase ancient cave art, and that one got 599 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:57,320 Speaker 1: into this issue of it because again they're changing the caves, 600 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: and sometimes that can change things that prehistaric humans did. 601 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 3: Wow. 602 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 1: They point out that large quantities of the urine and 603 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 1: the guano it ferments, it can saturate the air with 604 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 1: quote aerosolized particles of phosphoric acid. So it's a rich 605 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: world down there. Goodbye horsetoodle. Now an interesting and largely 606 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 1: unanswered question for me, they would get some answers on it. 607 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:32,239 Speaker 1: Pertains to the question what might cave environments have been 608 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:36,400 Speaker 1: like before the evolution of cave roosting bats, because again, 609 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,960 Speaker 1: bats are mammals, and mammals have not in their highly 610 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,319 Speaker 1: successful mammals, they've been around for a while, but they 611 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 1: haven't always been around. So what would have potentially pooped 612 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,280 Speaker 1: up these caves and sustained these ecosystems before bats. 613 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,400 Speaker 3: That's a good point. So like the base layer of 614 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:57,400 Speaker 3: the food, the food web within the cave is emerging 615 00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 3: from back guano, and there were at a time, no 616 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,360 Speaker 3: back to bring the guano in. Could there be an 617 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:03,799 Speaker 3: ecosystem in the cave at all? 618 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,440 Speaker 1: Exactly? Yeah, And I think by and large the answer 619 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:08,759 Speaker 1: is yes, there would have been things that have done that. 620 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 1: And we know that in part because even today bats 621 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,320 Speaker 1: are not the only trogs to poop in a cave. 622 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 1: There are considerable factors, but crickets are often brought up 623 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 1: as another major cave pooper that allows the sun to 624 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:30,360 Speaker 1: shine in these lightless places. So it would seem that 625 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,800 Speaker 1: prebat organisms would have taken advantage of the cave niche 626 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 1: to do, you know, to whatever degree they could. One 627 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,319 Speaker 1: of the things about investigations into cave fossils is that 628 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 1: fossils that you find in deep caves aren't necessarily telling 629 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,840 Speaker 1: you about subterranean life. Tracks in the floor or even 630 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:53,320 Speaker 1: ceilings of deep caves may actually be insightful about life 631 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:57,160 Speaker 1: along shorelines of the surface. You know. That's the degree 632 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,759 Speaker 1: of time that we're dealing with, and considering the likes of, 633 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,480 Speaker 1: for instance, a five hundred meter deep that's a third 634 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,279 Speaker 1: of a mile deep cavern in France. I was reading 635 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,839 Speaker 1: about this is and I may be butchering French here, 636 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:13,680 Speaker 1: likely am castle book cave. Here, for instance, you'll find 637 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:17,080 Speaker 1: dino footprints that were first etched in mud or sand 638 00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,439 Speaker 1: on a beach one hundred million years ago, and they've 639 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:23,880 Speaker 1: just been gradually forced underground over time. 640 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:26,560 Speaker 3: So it's not like they were formed in the cave. 641 00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 3: These are rocks that were formed on the surface and 642 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,120 Speaker 3: then they later emerged in a cave. 643 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:35,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, and kind of similar to like, oh, you can't 644 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:36,960 Speaker 1: find a trillobte in a mountain and be like these 645 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 1: were the mountain trilobites. It's not really what's happening. But 646 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:43,279 Speaker 1: of course this doesn't mean we don't have evidence of 647 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 1: dinosaur age cave dwellers. As reported by Nature in twenty twenty, 648 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 1: cockroaches preserved in amber from ninety nine million years ago 649 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:57,160 Speaker 1: are likely the oldest evidence we have of organisms evolved 650 00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:59,000 Speaker 1: for life in a cave environment. 651 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 3: Million year old cave cockroaches. What were they like? 652 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,880 Speaker 1: Oh, they were they were kind of scary. I included 653 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,880 Speaker 1: an image here of one for you, Joe. This is 654 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 1: one of the species that they were looking at, and 655 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:15,640 Speaker 1: you'll see that it has front appendages, these kind of 656 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:19,959 Speaker 1: like raptorial four legs, much like a praying mantis, which 657 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 1: means they were likely a highly predatory species in their 658 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 1: cave environments. MM. So that's that's one of the features 659 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:32,439 Speaker 1: that they found on these these amber preserved specimens. There's 660 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 1: lost coloration, there's reduced wing and eye size, elongated antennae, 661 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:43,480 Speaker 1: and and reduced leg spines for passive defense. So two 662 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,480 Speaker 1: species were discovered in amber in this cave from me 663 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:50,720 Speaker 1: and mar, one of which apparently had these raptorial four legs, 664 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:55,040 Speaker 1: meaning it was it was likely primarily a predator. And 665 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,600 Speaker 1: according to a paper in Cosmos magazine by James Urckhart, 666 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,000 Speaker 1: one of the one of the interesting things about this 667 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:04,719 Speaker 1: find is that the specimens in question would seem to 668 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:09,480 Speaker 1: have mid Cretaceous origins, but all cave animals living today 669 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 1: have a late Sinozoic origin. Now, why these older cave 670 00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:17,200 Speaker 1: organisms died out is apparently a mystery, because it would 671 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:21,200 Speaker 1: seem like an ideal place to shelter and survive surface 672 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:25,160 Speaker 1: world extinction events, but obviously that's not the case. The 673 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:29,080 Speaker 1: article also stresses that it's not impossible that these cockroaches 674 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,239 Speaker 1: may have survived even into modern times in one form 675 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,239 Speaker 1: or another, because our understanding of living insects is of 676 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 1: course incomplete, so it's not impossible even though we're gazing 677 00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:45,560 Speaker 1: backwards through time with this particular specimen, its genetic legacy 678 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:50,000 Speaker 1: could still be alive today. The article here is quite good. 679 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:52,879 Speaker 1: It also stresses some of the larger challenges of understanding 680 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:56,719 Speaker 1: such ancient cave environments in figuring out what they consisted of. 681 00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:03,120 Speaker 1: Other Mesozoic cave organisms, it certainly existed, but either we 682 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:06,760 Speaker 1: get into the same problems we encounter with the inherent 683 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,920 Speaker 1: incompleteness of a fossils in general on the fossil record, 684 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 1: because either a cave system collapsed long ago or key 685 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:20,440 Speaker 1: to this example, didn't allow fossil preservation. This case, amber 686 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:27,160 Speaker 1: containing cave organisms is rather unique because a tree is 687 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:30,359 Speaker 1: not going to grow in said cave. They say this 688 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,120 Speaker 1: is kind of like a one in a million fine 689 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:36,000 Speaker 1: because it probably depended on resin from a tree growing 690 00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:39,360 Speaker 1: directly in the mouth of a cave, like in exactly 691 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:42,319 Speaker 1: the right place, exactly the wrong right time, in order 692 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:46,000 Speaker 1: to capture this creature that otherwise would not be venturing 693 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:48,160 Speaker 1: out of the caves to climb around on trees. 694 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's interesting, and I was wondering I was going 695 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:53,279 Speaker 3: to ask about exactly that like, how does a cave 696 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,240 Speaker 3: cockroach get trapped in amber? So I guess the answer 697 00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:59,480 Speaker 3: is probably very rarely happened. We're incredibly lucky to have 698 00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:00,880 Speaker 3: this unique find. 699 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:03,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it just raises the question, like what else 700 00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,279 Speaker 1: would have been down there that we didn't crawl into 701 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:11,680 Speaker 1: the amber. You know, there's again just so many mysteries 702 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:16,319 Speaker 1: within within the fossil record, and back to the earlier point, 703 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:18,960 Speaker 1: so many mysteries remaining and just sort of the in 704 00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 1: the the existing organic world. You know, we're still making 705 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:30,080 Speaker 1: discoveries regarding insects, cave environments, of cave ecosystems. It's I mean, 706 00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:31,360 Speaker 1: it's really exciting. 707 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:33,360 Speaker 3: No doubt, And you know what, I think we're going 708 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,359 Speaker 3: to have to end today's episode there, but we've got 709 00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:38,320 Speaker 3: more cave stuff to talk about. So we're going to 710 00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:39,920 Speaker 3: be back with part three definitely. 711 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,000 Speaker 1: That's right. We're gonna get into some cave creditors and 712 00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:46,920 Speaker 1: who knows what else. All right, stuff to blow your mind. 713 00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:50,640 Speaker 1: As you know. Core episodes are on Tuesdays and Thursday. 714 00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:55,719 Speaker 1: We're primarily a science and culture podcast, and then on 715 00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,880 Speaker 1: Mondays we do listener mail. On Wednesdays we do a 716 00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:01,120 Speaker 1: short form episode, and then on Fridays we set us 717 00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:03,040 Speaker 1: on most serious concerns to just talk about a weird 718 00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:06,240 Speaker 1: film on Weird House Cinema. We bust out a rerun 719 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:06,960 Speaker 1: on the weekends. 720 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:11,280 Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 721 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:13,120 Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us 722 00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,680 Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 723 00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:17,760 Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 724 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,840 Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 725 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:29,680 Speaker 3: your Mind dot com. 726 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,719 Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 727 00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:35,600 Speaker 2: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 728 00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:52,279 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.