WEBVTT - External Exam - Working as a Forensic Artist with FBI Forensic Sculptor, Lisa Bailey! 0:00:04.720 --> 0:00:12.879 Mother Knows Death Presents External Exams with Nicole and Jimmy. 0:00:16.840 --> 0:00:20.520 Hi everyone, welcome to this week's External Exam on Mother 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:24.400 nos Death. Since we started our podcast, we've had multiple 0:00:24.480 --> 0:00:28.120 stories in the news relating to skulls being found. And 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:32.559 I'm always curious who works on these cases. How when 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:36.480 they're found, where does the skull go? Who determines who 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:39.120 this person is that has either been missing or is 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:42.320 a victim of a crime. And today we are going 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:45.760 to talk to a forensic artist. Her name is Lisa Baily, 0:00:46.360 --> 0:00:49.200 and she's coming out with a new book actually today 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:52.200 called Clay and Bones. So welcome to the show. Lisa, 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:54.520 Thanks so much. 0:00:54.480 --> 0:00:56.560 This is the true because I've been following you the 0:00:56.600 --> 0:00:59.880 moment I got on Instagram. Yeah, Ie, So. 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:02.880 That that's awesome because I've been a huge fan of 0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:05.360 your work as well. So I'm so glad we finally 0:01:05.400 --> 0:01:08.840 get to meet in person. It's great. Let So, I 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:11.160 like to start off my interviews just trying to get 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:14.120 a basis of how people got into their field and 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:16.560 what their life has been like, their whole entire life, 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:21.479 not just their career. So for me, people always think 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:23.680 that I was this. They look at me and they 0:01:23.720 --> 0:01:26.160 think I have tattoos and I was some goth kid 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:29.920 that just was obsessed with death and slept in a 0:01:29.959 --> 0:01:33.880 coffin or something, and I obviously I wasn't. Do you 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:37.119 when people find out that that you work with human 0:01:37.200 --> 0:01:40.759 skulls for a living, do they ever ask you if 0:01:40.800 --> 0:01:42.720 you were obsessed with death when you were a kid 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:43.200 and grown up? 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:45.880 Yeah, it's like, well, oh my god, how did you 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:50.640 get that job? And yeah, you know were you were? 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:53.760 You wearing black all the time and you know all 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:58.480 that dothor. I was the absolute opposite. Yeah, I was 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:02.040 always drawing as a kid. I loved artwork, but I 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:07.240 was painfully shy, Like just everybody ignore me. I would not. 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:11.119 I was painfully shy. So and I didn't like anything 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:16.040 blood cuts and gore and anything gross. So it was 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:18.400 kind of surprising like some of the things that I've 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:22.600 seen in my life then, But yeah, I was complete 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:26.239 opposite this. Any anybody that knew me as a kid 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:30.600 would be like, what it's like, you up. I wouldn't 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:33.520 even dissect I couldn't dissect the throb and science class. 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:35.560 I have my partner that. 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:39.160 It's really interesting though, because I'm starting to ask this 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:41.800 question to funeral directors and other people that kind of 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:44.880 work in a similar feel to ours, and everyone says 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:47.680 the same thing. They they weren't. They weren't into it. 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:50.680 There was no there was no indication that this is 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:52.480 what they were going to do when they grew up. 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:55.320 So you're saying that you were artistic when you were 0:02:55.360 --> 0:02:59.280 a kid, were you Were you also interested in science? 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:03.480 Now, well, I hated science. I did. I did everything 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:04.560 to get No. 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:07.920 This is great to hear because kids get frustrated in 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:11.440 school because they don't they don't understand science, or they're 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:14.000 not good at math. And then you look and see 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:16.840 these adults became scientists when they got older, So it's. 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:20.400 A good stalory. Yeah. I was absolutely anytime I could 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:23.240 make a science project into an art project, I would 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:25.760 do that. So I was a kid who was building 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:28.360 volcanoes with baking soda instead of writing on a report 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:33.520 about volcanoes. So yeah, I was completely not interested in science. 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:38.240 But well, one thing, if I can say this, I 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:42.560 remember when I was about thirteen fourteen, I used to 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:45.760 watch all the police shows with my dad and so on. 0:03:45.760 --> 0:03:48.120 One of them, maybe it was Quincy, they had somebody 0:03:48.120 --> 0:03:50.840 doing a facial approximation, and I thought that is so cool. 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:53.680 I would love to do that. But this was the 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:56.800 seventies and nobody knew how you would go about that, 0:03:57.240 --> 0:03:59.520 and then or would be really cool to be a 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:02.400 composite artists. You know, I watched you know, I'm aging 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:07.160 myself the WI five things like that, so so that 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:09.880 would be the coolest job on earth. But nobody knew. 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:12.880 This was way before computers, and even if I had 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:17.000 been computers there at that time, there's very little information 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:18.919 about how to become a friends of artists. It's a 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:23.360 very odd ball, niche field. So it's really kind of 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:26.800 odd that all these years later, it's exactly what I 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:29.920 ended up doing. I wasn't aiming for it. It was 0:04:30.760 --> 0:04:34.320 living my life doing you know, joining the Navy, all 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:38.560 those things that I guess we'll talk about. I ended 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:41.880 up unwittingly being perfectly prepared to be a friends of 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:45.040 artist at the FBI. When when I saw the job posting, 0:04:45.080 --> 0:04:48.480 it was like they had my resume was crazy. Yeah, 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:49.440 it was crazy. 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:54.760 That's that's awesome. So let's let's first talk about the military, 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:57.919 because I want everyone to get an understanding of how 0:04:58.080 --> 0:05:01.320 you ended up at the FBI as a forensic artist. 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:05.480 So you come from a family that is military, correct, 0:05:05.960 --> 0:05:09.360 And so when you were growing up, was that just 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:12.279 like I'll be joining the military when I get older 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:14.360 or when did you decide you were going to join 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:14.920 the military. 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:17.760 I figured when I was about seventeen, that's probably where 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:21.080 it's going to go. There were five kids in our family, 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:23.520 and college was just never talked about, like there are 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:25.840 It was like that was something the officer's kids went 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:28.119 to college. Like, you know, my dad was a master 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:34.320 sergeant wonderful gem you know dad. So yeah, I have 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:36.400 the best father in the world. I have to have 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:40.360 the best father anyway. So college just wasn't an option. 0:05:40.520 --> 0:05:42.719 So it was like there was nothing in Dove I 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:45.160 lived in. You know, that's for the Dover Air Force 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:48.880 Space in Delaware. That's if people have heard of that. 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:51.480 That's when they bring the remains from my proceeds of soldiers. 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:54.119 They had the more there out of Dover Air Force Space, 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:58.640 and there was just really there were no other There 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:01.320 was really nothing there. So the military was really the 0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:06.400 best option to get out and get the job, be 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:11.960 trained in something, get college benefits, and it was the 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:14.839 best thing for me. I mean, I stopped being shy. 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:18.200 I learned how to stand up for myself because if 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:24.160 you don't, you'll get loaded down. And obviously the militarians male, 0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:28.240 male dominated, you know, And but it was the best 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:30.919 thing for me. So best thing for me. 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:35.560 And you're so your dad in Air Force twenty six 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:40.280 years and and what made you decide that you were 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:41.359 going to go into the me. 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:43.960 So my dad was in the Air Force, my mother 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:46.600 was in the Women's Army Air Corps in the fifties. 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:49.640 My oldest brother and my sister were in the Air Force, 0:06:49.800 --> 0:06:52.160 and another brother was in the Marines. And I thought, well, 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:54.479 I have to do the maybe so I can, you know, 0:06:54.640 --> 0:07:00.360 round it out, And they honestly and please take my 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:03.279 agentto account. I was eighteen. They had the cutest uniforms, 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:06.600 So that was serious. Serious, that's what eighteen year olds 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:10.840 think about. It's like, oh my god, it's uniforms. But yeah, 0:07:10.840 --> 0:07:14.920 it just appealed to me. It just appealed to me. Yeah. 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:17.840 So when I don't I'm not one hundred percent familiar. 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:20.120 I know, I sound like an idiot to people that 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:23.040 are in military families. I just don't. I'm not familiar 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:26.640 with how it works really. So you join the Navy 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:29.760 and while you're there, what what are you doing as 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:30.280 a job? 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:30.760 Do you do? 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:33.080 They try to find something that you're good at, or 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:36.400 they just give you any kind of task and you. 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:39.440 Have you, uh, you figure out what you want to 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:42.240 be before you join. So you take a test which 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:44.240 is a general Placement test kind of you know, sort 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:46.880 of an IQ. But so you get a general placement 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:50.320 test and then they take out this you know, big book. 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:52.600 They're they're the recruiters trying to get you to join 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:55.040 something that they need. Like they tried to talk me 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:59.000 into becoming going to nukes, and I was like, I don't. 0:07:59.080 --> 0:08:02.640 I don't do nath, I can't into news. And I 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:06.760 guess I scored well enough for the intelligence field. And 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:08.400 so one of the recruiters said, wow, I ought to 0:08:08.400 --> 0:08:10.960 be a linguist and I'd never taken a language before. 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:14.160 So eighteen years old, I joined as a Russian linguist 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:18.360 and they But so the thing is any military kid 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:20.760 noses you do not join the military unless you have 0:08:20.760 --> 0:08:23.880 a guaranteed school, because otherwise you were at their mercy 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:26.040 and they can do whatever they want with you. So 0:08:26.480 --> 0:08:29.000 when you join, you join you go through your boot 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:32.640 camp and then you go to your school. And I 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:36.840 was immersed in Russian for eight hours a day, forty 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:39.080 five days a week, forty seven weeks. And that was 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:41.560 just the one part of school. And there was another 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:47.040 section after four more months. But if I had, if 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:49.719 I had flunked out of that, then they could have that. 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:52.280 I'd be chipping paint. I'd be peeling potatoes. They can 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:55.160 do they can do anything they want with you, well, 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:57.720 whatever they need. It's true. I mean, it's it's true. 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:02.120 And so I joined as a Russian linguist and had 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:04.679 no idea, but and I was, you know, they would say, 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:06.040 oh my god, you're can have to study four or 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:08.440 five hours a night. There's a fifty percent nutrition rate, 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:10.640 and I don't know. I took to it like a 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:12.800 duck to water. It was no problem. It's I think 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:17.240 it's an artist and a visual To me, Russian was 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:20.200 a very organized language and it made sense to me. 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:24.400 And I could just see the words, so I couldn't 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:27.000 think of a word. I would remember seeing it in 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:29.240 my textbook and then I would go, oh, okay, I 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:33.880 could read it in my mind and answer, so that's it. 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:36.960 Yeah, My girlfriend, And how long did you do that? 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:38.240 How long did you do that? 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:42.080 Seven weeks. That was in Monterey, California, a beautiful place 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:44.800 to be stationed, by the way, it's gorgeous. 0:09:46.679 --> 0:09:49.280 So you're in the Navy doing this as a career 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:49.600 for her. 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:53.080 I ended up doing six years. The typical endlessman is 0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:55.559 four years, but because my school was basically a year 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:59.360 and a half, they wanted you to have It wasn't mandatory, 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:01.679 but they all for a bonus if you extended for 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:03.400 two years. So that's what I did. So I was 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:06.480 in for six years total. That was the perfect time, 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:09.079 a correct amount of time because I was ready to 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:09.520 get out. 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:15.160 And from there, you started working at Johns Hopkins, right, 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:17.319 And what did you do there? 0:10:17.600 --> 0:10:20.600 I did administrative work. I was a contractor there at 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:24.880 the Applied Physics Laboratory. Because the one great thing is 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:27.760 I had a very high clearance, so I was very 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:33.240 marketable in the DC area. Data processing. Hated it to 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:36.200 the depth of my soul. I am, I hate it, 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:39.520 hate it. But they had a really good education program, 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:42.480 so that's when they started. I had gotten some college 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:44.760 credits while I was in the Navy, and then I 0:10:44.800 --> 0:10:47.000 just started going to college part time while work in 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:50.520 full time. And I did that for a total of 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:54.440 seven years. It took forever. And then a positioned open 0:10:54.480 --> 0:10:57.400 Nuxbroo graphic artist at Hopkins, and I lied and I 0:10:57.440 --> 0:11:00.719 got it and it was just a trans So when 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:04.920 I was, you know, doing the data processing, yeah, you know, 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:08.360 so I heard about an opening and that's how I 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:10.520 that's how I transition. It's like all of a sudden, 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:13.199 I was, I was a graphic artist and I loved it. 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:14.120 I loved it. 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:18.840 So you're working as a graphic artist and you what 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:21.240 kind of graphic art were you doing for the for 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:23.080 the hospital or the. 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:26.920 School since this is for the Applying Physics laboratory, which 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:30.400 is ironic because I hated physics in high school. But 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:34.040 you know, they were they called them Beltway bandits. But 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:38.040 all the contractors that worked for the military, for Washington 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:40.800 d C. I mean, they're they're based Hopkins is based 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:43.839 in Maryland, but you would have, like I worked in 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:47.080 the Submarine Technology department, so some of them would be 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:51.760 you know, scenarios of you know, here are you know, 0:11:52.080 --> 0:11:56.600 planes flying and they're shooting was radar and so or whatever. 0:11:56.679 --> 0:11:58.960 It's very technical and all I had to do is illustrated. 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:02.360 So we're using these three D software and Soto Shop 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:07.480 to basically do like the artist depiction of technology that 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:11.959 they wanted to get funding for. That was part of it. 0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:13.600 I mean, that was part of it. It might be 0:12:13.720 --> 0:12:17.559 doing doing an illustration of something that somebody was inventing 0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:23.120 and the and it wasn't even actually all military because 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:27.719 in the sudden wing technology, they were using that technology 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:33.320 for for medical for like, uh, heart problems. I won't 0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:36.160 be able to speak intelligently about it because I'm. 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:41.680 No, but the brother laws. It's cool though, because I 0:12:42.120 --> 0:12:44.360 a lot of people don't think about all those different 0:12:44.360 --> 0:12:47.680 things that go into college programs and things that there's 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:50.800 artists that are helping out with that, and that's really cool. 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:53.840 So how did you hear about this job that came 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:55.520 up at the FBI? And what was it? 0:12:56.480 --> 0:12:59.600 As an illustrator? So it was they had what they 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:04.200 called GS levels in the federal government. So this was 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:06.840 a GS ten, which is a good but you know, 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:10.280 a good kind of rank, and it was an illustrator. 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:14.280 I was, actually I was. I loved my job at Hopkins. 0:13:14.360 --> 0:13:16.840 I loved everybody I worked with, but I just happened 0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:20.440 to be at the dunkin Donuts looking through a Washington 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:23.320 Post that somebody had left on the table, and I 0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:26.679 looked flipped up in the classifieds and I saw an 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:29.120 FBI seal and I was like, what's that? And then 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:30.600 I read it and I was just like, oh my god, 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:34.040 oh my god, oh my god. And this sounds so cool. 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:35.800 And there was nothing in that because it was a 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:40.800 junior position, nothing about skulls or anything then. But it 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:44.760 was doing demonstrative evidence for courtroom trials, you know, things 0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:48.200 like that and composite sketches that you could work your 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:53.240 way into if you got promoted. So I didn't think 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:55.040 I would get it. I thought there's going to be 0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:57.960 hundreds of people applying for this. I don't have a chance. 0:13:58.200 --> 0:13:59.680 But maybe I'll get to see the inside of the 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:04.880 FBI because they'll have to interview me. Because literally they 0:14:04.920 --> 0:14:09.880 wanted and this actually I want to remember this for 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:13.160 for later in the conversation, but they wanted be able 0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:16.600 to like draw with kencil, no computers, no three D software, 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:19.360 no design software, and my degree was in design, so 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:24.720 they wanted they wanted everything. And at Hopkins, I did 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:28.320 all that. I did design I did three d illustrations 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:34.880 and stuff. So I applied and this was before this 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:39.760 was nineteen ninety seven, so it was I nailed in 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:43.360 my resume, you know paper I sent up FedEx because 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:45.920 that was terrified it would get lost. And I heard 0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:48.800 nothing for like six months or something, and I thought, 0:14:48.880 --> 0:14:52.000 well they I thought they felt like everybody asked, you know, 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:54.640 my sister would ask me was like, I guess somebody 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:57.640 else got it. And then one day I was working 0:14:57.680 --> 0:14:59.400 on a rest job and I got a phone call 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:03.080 and somebody said I'm from the FBI, and my heart 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:06.760 stopped and he said, we've got trapplication. We'd like to 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:12.080 interview you. So, oh my god, I loved I slipped. 0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:15.560 So we said it's down to you and three other people, 0:15:15.840 --> 0:15:18.200 and I had a phone interview. A couple of days later. 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:22.440 I thought that was the preliminary interview. It wasn't. It 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:26.640 was the interview. So a couple of days after the 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:29.160 phone interview, he called me back at work and he 0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:33.680 said the job is yours if you wanted, and lost 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:38.080 my mind. I nearly lost my mind. Yeah, that was so. 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:41.160 How So, from the time you sent in your resume 0:15:41.400 --> 0:15:44.440 until the time you got the job. How long was 0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:44.800 it was. 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:51.800 An unusual situation. It was three years, and so it 0:15:51.880 --> 0:15:55.520 was during Okay, I applied to ninety seven, so they 0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:59.240 were trying to get me in before a rumored hiring freeze. 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:01.320 And you know, September the end of the fiscal year, 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:05.720 so September thirtyth yes, hiring freeze. Congress couldn't decide on 0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:08.520 the budget, so all hiring has stopped. So then for 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:12.360 two years sitting around going you know, somebody like approve 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:14.280 of the budget. And this was during the Bush and 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:19.080 War presidential thing, and nothing could get figured out. So 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:24.400 it was finally in. It was September two thousand and one. 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:27.920 I remember the day. It was a Friday, and the 0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:31.040 agent came into the office and said, everything's done. Welcome 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:34.080 to the FBI. But I didn't get to. I didn't 0:16:34.120 --> 0:16:35.400 start till two months later. 0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:39.680 So you get So you get hired in September of 0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:43.560 two thousand and one, and then what happens four days 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:45.080 after you get hired. 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:48.240 I still wasn't in yet. Like I was hired. They 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:50.720 I had the offer letter, I had everything, but there 0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:53.520 was still you know, the wheels of the government most slowly, 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:56.040 so of course when nine to eleven happened, I thought 0:16:56.240 --> 0:16:58.480 I was desperate to get in there because the artists 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:01.080 there were working twelve hour shifts, were just working around 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:04.439 the clock, and it still took some time. So I 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:08.280 wasn't able to actually physically walk in the door until November, 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:11.639 until two months later. But still they were back to 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:14.159 a normal schedule, and I was still working on everything 0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:16.359 for you know a lot of things for nine to eleven. 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:21.320 So there is this act, So what kind of things, 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:23.760 like what kind of things would a person in your 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:26.040 position do as it relates to nine to eleven? 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:28.960 Okay, what did we do? Oh? So we had to 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:32.240 We scanned, you know, all of the Dictum's photos. You 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:35.080 would think that they were the most beautiful digital copy somewhere, 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:37.480 but again it's two thousand and one. Not everybody had 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:41.000 all that stuff. So we were scanning, scanning, cleaning up 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:43.800 photos of all the victims. We were making presentations for 0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:48.520 Director Molar and for the White House of We were 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:51.840 doing interactive presentations, like one of the ones I was 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:54.760 there was a lead artist because I was brand new, 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:59.000 but some of the senior artists would be doing you know, 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:03.520 layout diagrams of the planes and where every person was 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:07.240 sitting and there would be a link to the voice calls, 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:09.959 like some of the phone calls from people. It was 0:18:10.119 --> 0:18:14.240 it was trust me, it was something to walk into. 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:18.119 And actually one of when on a co worker, but 0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:22.760 a scientist that had worked at Hopkins was actually killed 0:18:22.920 --> 0:18:25.920 during during that. I found that out the day later, 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:30.280 the day after, so when I went, when I was 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:32.439 at the bureau, it was just very surreal. It's like 0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:34.600 un scanning pictures and then there's a picture of the 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:38.320 person that I knew, Like I know, many people after 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:40.439 nine eleven is like they wanted to do something like 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:42.680 what can I do? And at least I felt like, well, 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:46.040 I'm here, I'm doing something, you know, helping with the 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:48.240 presentations for it because they were gonna, you know, the 0:18:48.280 --> 0:18:51.800 prosecuting Zacharias Masali. So I worked on some of those 0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:57.679 presentations of courtroom things. Uh. So it was it was 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:01.639 anything related to eleven that took up the bulk of 0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:03.760 my time the first year. 0:19:04.840 --> 0:19:08.000 What are some things when you started working there that 0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:11.199 a regular person would kind of be surprised by because 0:19:11.240 --> 0:19:13.680 obviously you walked in there and you didn't really know much. 0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:17.439 You just supplied for some job in the newspaper and 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:19.760 you're like, cool, I'll be doing some kind of art 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:22.760 for the FBI. And you walk in after one of 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:27.560 the biggest investigations in United States history, like what what happened? 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:27.959 Like? 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:30.000 What are some things that kind of blew your mind 0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:32.800 that you didn't really realize happened Behind the scenes? 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:38.040 It was on some well, my my supervisor was walking 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:40.320 me through the office and he had a he said, 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:42.040 this is where we keep all the skulls. And I 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:45.160 was like, you have skulls in there. That was because 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:47.240 that was not in the job description, which was fine, 0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:50.719 but that kind of blew me away. Just seeing the 0:19:50.760 --> 0:19:54.000 real work. You've seen things on TV, you know, you're 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:56.800 you're you're watching police shows and everything, and then going 0:19:56.840 --> 0:19:59.040 inside the FBI and going, oh my god, this is 0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:02.040 really where it really hap happens. And seeing people working in, 0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:07.480 you know, scraping clothing for for hairs and fibers and 0:20:07.520 --> 0:20:10.639 and things like that. It was It was surreal, It 0:20:10.720 --> 0:20:12.520 is all I can say. It was surreal to be 0:20:12.640 --> 0:20:15.760 there because everybody's normal people. They're just walking around like, 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:19.359 you know, this is their job. But to be on 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:24.160 the in, to be on the inside, it was it was, Yeah, 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:26.840 it was surreal, Like I was. I kept pinching myself. 0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:28.920 I was like, I can't believe them here. It was. Yeah, 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:30.880 it was thrilled. It was absolutely thrilled. 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:35.640 Do they have like one central office or are there 0:20:35.720 --> 0:20:38.440 other branches throughout the country that do this work as 0:20:38.480 --> 0:20:39.760 well or is it one place? 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:42.159 Okay, So the way the FBI is organized, there's the 0:20:42.200 --> 0:20:45.879 FBI headquarters in Washington, DC, and then they have field offices. 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:49.920 So every state has a every state, most every state 0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:53.760 has a field in field office. So you could say 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:56.920 that the most of the case work is done by 0:20:57.000 --> 0:21:00.520 the agents and the field offices. So even though the 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:04.399 Washington even though the FBI headquarters is in Washington, d C, 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:11.959 there's also WFO, the Washington Field Office. So and then 0:21:12.000 --> 0:21:15.600 they have legal attaches all over the world. So the 0:21:15.800 --> 0:21:19.000 but the forensic art we were actually our division was 0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:23.600 the FBI Laboratory. So you can imagine the organizational tree 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:28.679 of the FBI goes on forever. So so I was 0:21:28.720 --> 0:21:32.040 part of the SBI Laboratory division and we eventually moved 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:36.200 down to Quantica. Yeah yeah, oh okay, cool. 0:21:36.920 --> 0:21:40.480 So when you when you started, you they knew that 0:21:40.560 --> 0:21:42.600 you had some kind of a background in art, but 0:21:42.680 --> 0:21:46.680 you weren't specifically trained to do what you ended up doing. 0:21:46.760 --> 0:21:49.639 So when you started working there, did they require you 0:21:49.680 --> 0:21:52.320 to go to art school or did someone teach you 0:21:52.359 --> 0:21:55.280 like on the job training or was it a combination. 0:21:55.520 --> 0:21:59.320 It was a little combination. I mean they you know, 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:01.280 I said, non of a portfolio, so they saw my 0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:04.880 drawing ability, the and all that. It was basically learning 0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:07.560 how to apply those skills to forensics. So I had 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:11.000 done plenty of floor plans and diagrams and things at Hopkins, 0:22:11.359 --> 0:22:13.520 but this you had to think of it as it 0:22:13.680 --> 0:22:16.040 going to a courtroom, and so how to make sure 0:22:16.040 --> 0:22:18.119 that this information is presented in a way that the 0:22:18.160 --> 0:22:24.399 jury can understand so it's clear and unbiased. So I 0:22:24.400 --> 0:22:27.119 would shadow sometimes, like shadow and other artists, just so 0:22:27.119 --> 0:22:28.520 that they would be working on a case and I 0:22:28.560 --> 0:22:31.200 would see, you know, see what they were doing. That 0:22:31.359 --> 0:22:35.440 Also they had the big thing was the FBI Forensic 0:22:35.480 --> 0:22:38.800 Facial Imaging class, and that was three weeks long, and 0:22:38.840 --> 0:22:41.879 that was training in composite drawings and age progressions and 0:22:41.920 --> 0:22:46.560 facial approximation. So that was my first time. That's when 0:22:46.560 --> 0:22:49.359 I fell in love with skulls. And facial approximations. During 0:22:49.359 --> 0:22:53.600 that class, I thought, this is this is the best 0:22:53.640 --> 0:22:57.359 thing ever. And because I was, because I'm still a 0:22:57.400 --> 0:22:59.600 new hire, you know, I wasn't able to do facian 0:22:59.640 --> 0:23:02.000 props right away and then you have to kind of, 0:23:02.080 --> 0:23:05.560 you know, work up to that. But that's when I 0:23:05.560 --> 0:23:08.720 fell in love with it. And from then on I 0:23:08.920 --> 0:23:14.920 was just I learned. I did everything I could learn anything, 0:23:15.040 --> 0:23:19.000 everything about facial approximation because I want because I wanted 0:23:19.040 --> 0:23:20.280 to do it later when I want to go. 0:23:23.160 --> 0:23:25.240 Isn't it kind of cool when you look back at 0:23:25.240 --> 0:23:27.280 your childhood and you said that you did see an 0:23:27.320 --> 0:23:29.600 episode of Quincy and you saw them doing that that 0:23:30.760 --> 0:23:34.520 if the Internet maybe existed, because because think about this, 0:23:34.680 --> 0:23:36.760 if you were if you were a fourteen year old 0:23:36.840 --> 0:23:39.440 kid and you saw a TV show that did that, 0:23:39.480 --> 0:23:41.800 all you'd have to do on Google is you know, 0:23:41.880 --> 0:23:43.840 what job can I get where I do this and 0:23:44.080 --> 0:23:47.320 it'll pop up. But when I mean the same thing 0:23:47.359 --> 0:23:49.520 happened with me. There was no Internet when I was 0:23:49.560 --> 0:23:51.119 trying to figure out what I was doing with my 0:23:51.200 --> 0:23:54.320 life either. So it's it's like kind of cool how 0:23:54.359 --> 0:23:58.800 people got their story without having that at their fingertips 0:23:58.840 --> 0:24:01.480 and got to where they were. Did you when you 0:24:01.520 --> 0:24:04.160 started working at the FBI over twenty years ago, did 0:24:04.200 --> 0:24:07.080 you were you one of the only women working there 0:24:07.119 --> 0:24:10.159 or what or do you think that there was a 0:24:10.240 --> 0:24:12.400 lot of women working there at the time or has 0:24:12.440 --> 0:24:13.720 that changed over the course. 0:24:14.359 --> 0:24:17.920 As far as well, there's as far as the FBI overall, 0:24:18.880 --> 0:24:21.680 it depends between agents and support personnel. So I was 0:24:21.720 --> 0:24:26.360 a support personnel. So in our the graphic unit where 0:24:26.400 --> 0:24:28.760 I worked, and that it's not the official name. I 0:24:28.800 --> 0:24:31.080 don't I'm not getting official names, so that that FBI unit, 0:24:31.080 --> 0:24:34.400 it's just anybody's worried about it. So in the graphic unit, 0:24:34.400 --> 0:24:37.399 they're about have you know, fifty fifty men and women, 0:24:37.840 --> 0:24:41.520 and our official title was Visual Information Specialists. But not 0:24:41.640 --> 0:24:45.240 everybody in there. Would you composits or age progressions or 0:24:46.040 --> 0:24:49.640 facial approximations. Some did more crime scene like going out 0:24:49.680 --> 0:24:54.639 diagramming crime scene is doing video, you know, more of 0:24:54.640 --> 0:24:58.280 the more of the technical aspect than others. So every 0:24:58.400 --> 0:25:00.639 every artist in there have kind of there's actually we 0:25:00.680 --> 0:25:04.159 had to be able to do everything at least at 0:25:04.200 --> 0:25:08.040 a base level, but then people kind of fall into 0:25:08.080 --> 0:25:12.480 what they're best at. And thankfully the supervisors. Then they 0:25:12.560 --> 0:25:15.520 saw that and they're like, Okay, well Lisa love Skalts 0:25:15.600 --> 0:25:18.959 and she's putting in the work. So that's the direction 0:25:19.080 --> 0:25:23.600 I went. Others just had very amazingly technical minds and 0:25:23.640 --> 0:25:28.119 were able, like especially on for the Masai trial, some 0:25:28.200 --> 0:25:34.080 of the presentations they did were just remarkable, remarkable things 0:25:34.080 --> 0:25:37.040 that maybe with the software now might be a town easier, 0:25:37.119 --> 0:25:39.880 but in two thousand and one, it's incredible that they did. 0:25:42.800 --> 0:25:45.679 I think it's cool that you're talking about trials that 0:25:45.720 --> 0:25:47.960 we're all familiar with hearing in the news and everything. 0:25:48.760 --> 0:25:53.920 Working in the hospital, we have to comply with HIPPO regulations, 0:25:53.960 --> 0:25:59.720 which is to protect patient privacy. Is there something similar 0:25:59.800 --> 0:26:03.800 in the FBI where you're kind of you're allowed to 0:26:03.840 --> 0:26:07.040 talk about stuff, but you really can't talk about too 0:26:07.080 --> 0:26:10.119 much so you can't figure out exactly who you're talking about. 0:26:10.760 --> 0:26:14.080 Yes, I mean we all have. We have the highest 0:26:14.119 --> 0:26:17.240 of the clearance, so top secret. I had what's called 0:26:17.520 --> 0:26:20.560 top secret with the sci special compartmented, so it was 0:26:20.840 --> 0:26:22.800 kind of up there. But because I had been in 0:26:22.840 --> 0:26:26.320 the military, it was The FBI is not like the military, 0:26:26.359 --> 0:26:29.200 but it was the same thing. It's like you're working 0:26:29.200 --> 0:26:31.280 in law enforcement, you have a clearance, you keep your 0:26:31.320 --> 0:26:34.080 mouth shut. That was just security was drooling a dirt. 0:26:34.160 --> 0:26:36.399 Hence all the time, it's like, keep your mouth shut. 0:26:36.600 --> 0:26:38.399 So you don't go out and talk about work out 0:26:38.440 --> 0:26:40.439 in the bar or something. You just you just do it. 0:26:40.880 --> 0:26:45.480 And you know, they didn't have a rule against identifying 0:26:45.520 --> 0:26:50.520 yourself as an FBI employee online, but I never did. 0:26:50.680 --> 0:26:52.320 I mean some people would go, I'm an f be 0:26:52.359 --> 0:26:54.600 a friends of artists and have it all over their 0:26:54.600 --> 0:26:57.639 social media, and I never did that. I'm hardly on 0:26:57.680 --> 0:26:59.920 social media now and I never put that I was 0:27:00.040 --> 0:27:03.280 at the FBI. I just you know, like, why bring attention? 0:27:03.880 --> 0:27:06.680 You know, I didn't see anything. Yeah, it was goodly 0:27:06.720 --> 0:27:09.480 to of this, so yeah I did. 0:27:10.320 --> 0:27:12.679 So you said that you they've picked up that you 0:27:12.800 --> 0:27:16.600 specialized in skulls, So just can you I first I 0:27:16.640 --> 0:27:19.639 want to know, like what what's your work schedule? Do 0:27:19.680 --> 0:27:22.159 you go to work just nine to five Monday through Friday? 0:27:22.200 --> 0:27:25.280 Is it part time? Are you on call? And then 0:27:25.400 --> 0:27:28.200 secondly I want to know when you walk into work 0:27:28.720 --> 0:27:32.000 every day and this might change from day to day, 0:27:32.040 --> 0:27:34.120 but like what what do you sit down and do? 0:27:34.119 --> 0:27:36.679 Do you sit at a desk, you stand in a lab, like, 0:27:36.960 --> 0:27:40.639 give us some explanation of what a typical work. 0:27:40.520 --> 0:27:42.359 Day would be. So I would say that, well, the 0:27:42.359 --> 0:27:45.040 first half of my career it's basically nine to five. 0:27:45.119 --> 0:27:47.239 You can you can slide the schedule a little bit, 0:27:47.280 --> 0:27:49.160 like sixty three thirty. You can slide that a bit, 0:27:49.720 --> 0:27:52.879 but it's very disappointing to anybody that sees all the 0:27:52.880 --> 0:27:55.280 awesome sets. Like on cssig and Bones, we do not 0:27:55.359 --> 0:28:01.359 work in cool offices. They're they're Cuba goles, cubicles, fornchs old. 0:28:02.400 --> 0:28:06.960 That's that's just what it's like. So when my career 0:28:06.960 --> 0:28:10.560 can basically be divided into nine year blocks, you know, 0:28:10.800 --> 0:28:13.239 the two blocks. So the first half, yeah, you just 0:28:13.320 --> 0:28:15.560 you walk in, you sign in, you get coffee, you 0:28:15.640 --> 0:28:18.639 check your email, and you just That was before I 0:28:18.680 --> 0:28:22.480 was working on skulls and the supervisor has a number 0:28:22.480 --> 0:28:25.080 of cases assigned to you and you just sort of 0:28:25.119 --> 0:28:28.359 juggle them based on court dates. And then the prosecutor 0:28:28.440 --> 0:28:30.240 might call up and say, guess what, we're going to 0:28:30.320 --> 0:28:32.560 court a month thoroughly, and then you have to swap 0:28:32.600 --> 0:28:35.919 things around, so sometimes you're juggling. We were not on 0:28:36.160 --> 0:28:41.480 call on call employees I don't know a lot about this, 0:28:41.800 --> 0:28:43.880 but you know there would be a schedule, so you 0:28:43.960 --> 0:28:47.120 knew when you were on call. And I guess there 0:28:47.200 --> 0:28:52.920 was some a different pay, pay structure or something. I'm 0:28:52.960 --> 0:28:54.800 not too familiar with it, but I know it exists. 0:28:56.520 --> 0:29:02.040 But you were expected if there was, you weren't. You 0:29:02.080 --> 0:29:04.800 didn't want to say no. Guy says, you know, we 0:29:04.880 --> 0:29:06.520 really need you to get on a plane tonight and 0:29:06.560 --> 0:29:10.600 go somewhere. You're like, okay, I will, So you're not 0:29:10.680 --> 0:29:13.040 you're not technically on a call, but yes you. I mean, 0:29:13.120 --> 0:29:14.880 it's just like the military. I was used to that. 0:29:15.040 --> 0:29:17.600 I mean, the military only owns you twenty four to seven. 0:29:17.640 --> 0:29:19.560 You might work a five day and we can get 0:29:19.600 --> 0:29:21.400 a weekend. But if you get a phone call that 0:29:21.440 --> 0:29:25.200 you need to go somewhere, then you go somewhere, Like 0:29:25.880 --> 0:29:27.320 do you. I don't know if you remember it was 0:29:28.720 --> 0:29:32.360 all the shootings on the East coast with not the 0:29:32.480 --> 0:29:37.600 member's name, the sniper shootings, if you remove that vaguely. 0:29:37.920 --> 0:29:41.280 Yeah, funny because I was just talking. I was just 0:29:41.360 --> 0:29:44.280 talking about that today. Actually. It's it's so funny how 0:29:44.760 --> 0:29:47.880 you don't talk about things for years and then today 0:29:47.920 --> 0:29:50.320 I was just talking to my husband this morning about 0:29:50.360 --> 0:29:53.360 the DC sniper and stuff, and now you're talking about it, 0:29:53.360 --> 0:29:58.920 which is interesting. So what involvement did you have the kis. 0:30:00.200 --> 0:30:02.640 The first night I was thalm and said, somebody, somebody 0:30:02.640 --> 0:30:05.000 saw something. There's a presentation in the morning, you have 0:30:05.120 --> 0:30:07.040 to go into work, and so it's ten o'clock that 0:30:07.120 --> 0:30:12.080 night and not driving tech borders or I remember. It 0:30:12.120 --> 0:30:15.080 was like something some information came in. You need to 0:30:15.080 --> 0:30:19.400 do a presentation, you need to whatever. So that yeah, 0:30:19.520 --> 0:30:21.960 that was. That was for anybody that worked in the 0:30:22.040 --> 0:30:25.480 DC area. It was It was scary because at that time, 0:30:26.920 --> 0:30:29.840 you know, I took the bus into DC, so you're 0:30:29.920 --> 0:30:31.760 standing in a long bus line and all you can 0:30:31.800 --> 0:30:34.320 think of is like, I'm a perfect target because this 0:30:34.400 --> 0:30:36.760 guy's still on the loots. You know. Turns out it 0:30:36.880 --> 0:30:41.000 was too but you were just it was. It was scary. 0:30:41.000 --> 0:30:42.600 It was like, oh my god, I joined the FBI 0:30:42.720 --> 0:30:46.400 and now now this now now there's you know, snipers 0:30:46.400 --> 0:30:46.840 and everything. 0:30:46.920 --> 0:30:50.320 So oh, I yeah, my husband what what? What my 0:30:50.440 --> 0:30:52.760 husband and I were talking about this morning actually was 0:30:52.760 --> 0:30:55.280 what a crazy time period that was, because it was 0:30:55.320 --> 0:30:58.920 like nine to eleven happened and then didn't the sniper 0:30:58.960 --> 0:31:01.320 thing happen at the same time time as Hurricane Katrina. 0:31:01.480 --> 0:31:04.240 I feel like it was like all within a couple 0:31:04.280 --> 0:31:08.920 of months, like just craziness and you're just like and 0:31:08.920 --> 0:31:13.680 then an antracks, Yeah, oh, an Anthrax, so of course, yeah, 0:31:13.760 --> 0:31:16.320 that was just like a crazy things like that. 0:31:16.280 --> 0:31:19.280 Like you know, even with those Anthrex letters, you know, 0:31:19.360 --> 0:31:21.360 we would might get those in and scam them and 0:31:21.400 --> 0:31:23.520 they would be in part of a presentation. We would 0:31:23.880 --> 0:31:27.640 give one fun thing I got to do. I shouldn't 0:31:27.640 --> 0:31:30.360 call it fun, but it was kind of cool. So 0:31:30.440 --> 0:31:35.360 during the trial for the sniper shooting, the model unit 0:31:35.720 --> 0:31:38.920 they took you know, they they would hide in the 0:31:38.960 --> 0:31:41.320 trunk and they drilled the hole and they were shooting people. 0:31:41.440 --> 0:31:43.000 They were inside the trunk and then shooting with the 0:31:43.080 --> 0:31:46.560 rifle out. So, uh, the model shop got a car, 0:31:46.680 --> 0:31:49.480 cut it in half and they restructured that to use 0:31:49.520 --> 0:31:52.719 in court so they could show exactly, you know, how 0:31:52.920 --> 0:31:56.080 how they would like fimb into the climb into the trunk. 0:31:56.520 --> 0:32:00.920 And there another coworker and I was the lead artist. 0:32:01.000 --> 0:32:06.360 We went over to the driving training that they have 0:32:06.480 --> 0:32:09.720 for agents where they get to drive fast and chase 0:32:09.760 --> 0:32:12.800 bad guys, and so we were having to measure one 0:32:12.800 --> 0:32:15.719 of the identical cars to use that for the present 0:32:15.800 --> 0:32:21.600 for the courtroom h courtroom exhibits. So that was you know, 0:32:21.880 --> 0:32:24.120 I've got to work on that a little bit. It 0:32:24.160 --> 0:32:25.200 was interesting. 0:32:25.280 --> 0:32:27.840 Yeah, that's that's us. I know, it doesn't it's it 0:32:27.960 --> 0:32:31.160 sounds kind of weird to say it's cool, but scientifically 0:32:32.000 --> 0:32:33.800 and just to be involved with a case like that, 0:32:33.880 --> 0:32:36.040 I think it's okay to say that it's cool. I would. 0:32:36.160 --> 0:32:39.440 I think I'll Actually I've completely forgotten about that. I 0:32:39.560 --> 0:32:44.640 just completely dropped. It's like, oh yeah, it's sometimes I 0:32:44.680 --> 0:32:46.480 forget some of the things I've done and I'm like, 0:32:46.560 --> 0:32:47.560 oh yeah. 0:32:47.520 --> 0:32:49.800 Yeah, and You're like I've done all this cool stuff 0:32:49.840 --> 0:32:51.880 and it just it's every day of your life, right, 0:32:52.480 --> 0:32:57.360 So what when you say composits, sketch and all these words, 0:32:57.440 --> 0:33:01.920 that's like, did you explain what some of those things are? 0:33:02.040 --> 0:33:04.640 What you would actually do sitting there as an artist 0:33:04.720 --> 0:33:06.920 to come up with that stuff, Like how do you 0:33:06.960 --> 0:33:09.720 do a composite sketch? Do you have to interview people 0:33:09.800 --> 0:33:13.560 to get that information? So you personally would interview them? 0:33:14.320 --> 0:33:17.720 Yeah, it was okay, And fifty years ago it was 0:33:17.760 --> 0:33:19.840 it was different. The FBI agents would do the interview. 0:33:19.920 --> 0:33:22.600 That's a whole other story, but yes, we would. We 0:33:22.640 --> 0:33:25.760 would go in, we would have a book of facial references, 0:33:26.000 --> 0:33:28.880 so we interview the person. But you're just basically trying 0:33:28.880 --> 0:33:31.400 to talk to them and get to relax. We're not 0:33:31.520 --> 0:33:34.440 in any uniform, so you're just you know, you're just 0:33:34.440 --> 0:33:37.160 doing get a person, which you know, somebody's been through 0:33:37.200 --> 0:33:40.760 something horrible. I mean, I didn't use sexual assault cases, 0:33:40.800 --> 0:33:43.520 and it was just it was very hard for me 0:33:45.320 --> 0:33:47.080 just I didn't want to say anything. I didn't want 0:33:47.080 --> 0:33:49.240 to say anything wrong. And this person's just had the 0:33:49.240 --> 0:33:52.800 worst moment of their life, you know. So so it's 0:33:52.880 --> 0:33:53.920 not like a police interview. 0:33:54.160 --> 0:33:56.440 Yeah, and you don't want them to be visualizing it 0:33:56.520 --> 0:33:58.720 right like you feel bad, but they try trying to 0:33:58.760 --> 0:34:00.640 help them. You have to look at it that way. 0:34:00.560 --> 0:34:03.880 Then exactly exactly, it's like they're trying to forget that face. 0:34:04.040 --> 0:34:05.720 On one hand, they want to forget it. On the 0:34:05.760 --> 0:34:08.800 other hand, they want a representation that it's something you go, see, 0:34:08.800 --> 0:34:10.719 this is what that I said. They looks like nat 0:34:10.760 --> 0:34:14.560 boat get them. I mean that it was I don't 0:34:14.560 --> 0:34:16.760 want to get ahead of myself. So yeah, so we would. 0:34:16.840 --> 0:34:19.560 We would just free recollection, like tell me what you remember. 0:34:19.600 --> 0:34:22.319 And it wasn't always just facial features. Sometimes it could 0:34:22.360 --> 0:34:26.640 be you know, something they smelled or or anything, because 0:34:26.680 --> 0:34:29.680 it can all it can all tie together, and then 0:34:29.719 --> 0:34:32.799 we have sacial records. So they let's say they sit 0:34:33.000 --> 0:34:38.239 that's I can't speak. Let's say the witness describes he 0:34:38.320 --> 0:34:41.400 had a really long face and a big nose and 0:34:41.520 --> 0:34:43.680 big bushy eyebrows. By the way, that would be a 0:34:43.680 --> 0:34:47.080 wonderful compassage to do, because average looking people are the 0:34:47.200 --> 0:34:51.000 worst to try to draw. If somebody says, well, it's 0:34:51.040 --> 0:34:53.080 like then you feel like you're ending up drawing Charlie 0:34:53.080 --> 0:34:56.680 Brown because everything is just so nothing. So they said 0:34:56.680 --> 0:35:01.000 a really long face. We had a catalog goes there 0:35:01.000 --> 0:35:04.200 were the rest photos that had been organized, so then 0:35:04.239 --> 0:35:06.960 there's you know, headshape, and then what was most similar. 0:35:07.280 --> 0:35:11.719 And it's a composite because you're piecing it together. Somebody 0:35:11.719 --> 0:35:17.000 called it once like mister potato head, which is friends 0:35:17.040 --> 0:35:18.680 of artists hate that, but there is a little bit 0:35:18.680 --> 0:35:21.160 of truth into it that you're basically piecing things together. 0:35:22.920 --> 0:35:27.000 So we develop we developed a general sketch, just keeping 0:35:27.040 --> 0:35:30.719 it rest and then show it to and is this 0:35:30.920 --> 0:35:34.040 on the right track? Do you would you recognize this person? Like, 0:35:34.080 --> 0:35:36.560 what do we need to do? So then it's then 0:35:36.600 --> 0:35:40.520 it's constant erasing and moving and the eyes need to 0:35:40.520 --> 0:35:45.640 be closer together digit and it's uh yeah it ta. 0:35:45.640 --> 0:35:49.160 It's like two to three hours too generally. And when 0:35:49.200 --> 0:35:51.319 I started, we were doing a pencil and paper. I 0:35:51.320 --> 0:35:54.279 don't know if they still are, but obviously now with 0:35:54.600 --> 0:35:58.480 you know, digital pads and everything. Just my opinion, that 0:35:58.600 --> 0:36:00.919 is a way to go. There's no reason I don't 0:36:00.920 --> 0:36:05.200 think to be using pencil on paper in a situation 0:36:05.320 --> 0:36:07.680 like that, And you could much more easily draw it 0:36:07.719 --> 0:36:10.120 on a pad and then instead of having to erase 0:36:10.160 --> 0:36:12.720 an eye and move, it happen and you just set 0:36:12.760 --> 0:36:14.520 it up with the cursor, the you know, moss a 0:36:14.600 --> 0:36:18.240 layer a little bit. That's my opinion unpopular in some corners. 0:36:18.440 --> 0:36:21.799 Yeah, and plus you could probably, yeah, like easily show 0:36:21.840 --> 0:36:25.319 it on a screen better and everything like that. How 0:36:25.400 --> 0:36:29.520 often when you do these kind of drawings, do you 0:36:29.520 --> 0:36:31.920 you ever get to see the person that gets arrested? 0:36:31.960 --> 0:36:34.000 Are you ever, like Dann I did a good job, 0:36:34.160 --> 0:36:38.319 like they they look exactly like the telling. Does that 0:36:38.440 --> 0:36:40.040 happen often or not really. 0:36:40.360 --> 0:36:43.799 It's it's kind of a crapshoot, and in those instances 0:36:44.920 --> 0:36:47.080 you really have to say, and this is not this 0:36:47.200 --> 0:36:51.400 is not like oh being humble. But the witness is 0:36:51.400 --> 0:36:54.480 the most important person. There's like a train of side 0:36:54.520 --> 0:36:56.400 in Friends of Guard that you could have a fabulous 0:36:56.480 --> 0:37:00.520 artist and a bad witness, and a great witness and 0:37:00.560 --> 0:37:02.759 a bad artist, and a bad artist will produce a 0:37:02.760 --> 0:37:05.000 better drawing because if you have a great witness, the 0:37:05.080 --> 0:37:09.200 quality of the drawing is is important as the features 0:37:09.200 --> 0:37:13.160 that are being described. So sometimes, like you know, an artist, 0:37:13.239 --> 0:37:16.320 you could do portrait level work. It's a terrible listener 0:37:16.520 --> 0:37:18.680 and it's not paying attention to what the witness wants. 0:37:18.840 --> 0:37:20.960 And they make a beautiful drawing, but it doesn't look 0:37:21.000 --> 0:37:22.719 like what was in the witness's head, and that does 0:37:22.840 --> 0:37:27.480 nobody any good. So having a good witness is gold. 0:37:27.600 --> 0:37:30.759 And a witness says, I don't remember his nose. I 0:37:30.800 --> 0:37:34.040 don't remember, I don't remember. It was average. That's like 0:37:34.120 --> 0:37:44.640 pulling teeth and it's hard for everybody. It's hard for everybody. 0:37:47.239 --> 0:37:49.279 Hey, guys, this episode is brought to you by The 0:37:49.280 --> 0:37:53.360 Gross Room. Starting on February ninth to February twenty third, 0:37:53.640 --> 0:37:56.560 the Gross Room will be on sale for only twenty dollars. 0:37:56.560 --> 0:38:00.200 For the entire year of Gross You will have access 0:38:00.239 --> 0:38:07.600 to celebrity death dissections, high profile death dissections, thousands of videos, photos, articles, 0:38:07.640 --> 0:38:11.120 all the way dating back to twenty nineteen. You definitely 0:38:11.160 --> 0:38:14.560 need to join this Valentine's Day. Please go to the 0:38:14.600 --> 0:38:20.640 grossroom dot com for more info and sign up. So 0:38:20.760 --> 0:38:23.400 when you're off work, like I know, for example, for me, 0:38:24.239 --> 0:38:27.200 I'll just be it just happened to me a couple 0:38:27.440 --> 0:38:29.840 weeks ago. I'm just sitting there with one of my friends, 0:38:29.840 --> 0:38:33.120 and I notice pathology on people all the time, and 0:38:33.239 --> 0:38:36.120 it's hard for me to like shut that off. I 0:38:36.120 --> 0:38:38.359 feel bad about it because I just can't shut it off. 0:38:38.400 --> 0:38:40.400 If I notice someone has like a weird bomb or 0:38:40.440 --> 0:38:42.880 something's going on with them, I can't. 0:38:42.600 --> 0:38:43.160 Shut it off. 0:38:43.480 --> 0:38:47.200 So the fact that you look at skulls for a living, right, 0:38:47.360 --> 0:38:50.719 do you just kind of dissect every single person you 0:38:50.760 --> 0:38:52.960 look at and think about like what their skull looks like. 0:38:53.120 --> 0:38:56.960 Yes, in a word, yes, that's a joke between me 0:38:56.960 --> 0:39:00.879 and my husband that I'll hee. We'd be sitting there 0:39:00.920 --> 0:39:05.760 talking and I he would notice that my gaze was off, 0:39:06.040 --> 0:39:08.080 and he was you're looking at my skull, aren't you? 0:39:08.120 --> 0:39:10.560 And I was like, I'm sorry, but just trying to 0:39:10.560 --> 0:39:13.040 figure things out, you know, trying to figure out like, Okay, 0:39:13.440 --> 0:39:16.360 there's a feature, how would it translate in flesh? And 0:39:16.640 --> 0:39:18.359 the funniest thing is to get a group of friends 0:39:18.360 --> 0:39:20.640 of artists together. What time there was a group of 0:39:20.719 --> 0:39:24.279 us at a conference and our waiter just had the 0:39:24.320 --> 0:39:28.040 most unusually shaped face and we were all just like, 0:39:28.080 --> 0:39:31.160 it's like star starings not staring because we just we 0:39:31.160 --> 0:39:34.600 were curious. We're curious that it's one of those things 0:39:34.640 --> 0:39:38.680 because it's a fascination. How does the skull translate to 0:39:38.680 --> 0:39:42.040 the face, what causes that? It's like a puzzle, and 0:39:42.080 --> 0:39:43.640 so that just kind of appealed to me. 0:39:43.920 --> 0:39:46.680 It's really cool though, because I don't know if you've 0:39:46.719 --> 0:39:49.080 ever been to the Modor Museum in Philly, but they 0:39:49.120 --> 0:39:51.279 have a whole wall of skulls and you just look 0:39:51.320 --> 0:39:53.520 at them and you're like, oh my god, this this 0:39:54.000 --> 0:39:57.759 really could show that how people look so different. But 0:39:57.960 --> 0:40:00.000 I think when you're a regular person and you just 0:40:00.080 --> 0:40:02.919 see a skull, like on TV or whatever, you don't 0:40:02.960 --> 0:40:06.640 really realize how many differences there are just with the 0:40:06.680 --> 0:40:10.080 size and with the orbits and everything, and how it 0:40:10.200 --> 0:40:14.640 changes between cultures. Is that something that you had to 0:40:14.719 --> 0:40:18.600 learned too about Is this person from European descent or 0:40:18.640 --> 0:40:20.439 Asian descent like things like that. 0:40:20.680 --> 0:40:26.239 Well, the antipologists would do that because they have an 0:40:26.320 --> 0:40:29.040 artist has no way near the training that would take 0:40:29.080 --> 0:40:31.000 to be able to determine things like that. So the 0:40:31.040 --> 0:40:33.960 antipologist sees it one way. They see it, of course, 0:40:34.000 --> 0:40:35.920 in the scientific way, and they will say, you know, 0:40:35.960 --> 0:40:42.920 the high Sex age stature ancestry. As an artist, when 0:40:42.960 --> 0:40:47.439 I first started, I thoughts looked alike. And of course 0:40:47.480 --> 0:40:49.520 as soon as you see two skulls together, you're like, 0:40:49.560 --> 0:40:52.239 oh my god, I couldn't have been more raw. And 0:40:52.280 --> 0:40:53.759 the first time I went to the body of farm 0:40:53.960 --> 0:40:56.560 saw twenty doll in a row, and I also was 0:40:56.600 --> 0:40:59.040 like a kidney candy store it was. And I've been 0:40:59.080 --> 0:41:03.000 to the mutter and it was just fascinating. And yes, 0:41:03.040 --> 0:41:05.680 you're standing there going, okay, I'm putting a face on 0:41:06.040 --> 0:41:09.719 in my head, but yeah, it's that's the key to 0:41:09.760 --> 0:41:12.000 why we look the way we do is it's all 0:41:12.040 --> 0:41:16.319 starts with a skull, and you know people people think, oh, 0:41:16.320 --> 0:41:18.560 how can they do that? Like you're just making things up, 0:41:18.560 --> 0:41:20.759 and it's like, no, there's a lot of information from 0:41:20.840 --> 0:41:24.360 gesture skull. You know, there's there's some things that you 0:41:24.400 --> 0:41:28.880 know are more leveled up to artistic interpretation. But I 0:41:28.880 --> 0:41:30.880 would say that you have to make you have to 0:41:30.920 --> 0:41:33.160 downplay what you don't know and play it when you 0:41:33.239 --> 0:41:37.120 do know. So, as the anthropologist says, this person broke 0:41:37.160 --> 0:41:40.080 their nose and it didn't heal right, and it was 0:41:40.200 --> 0:41:44.400 really crooked. So really emphasized that Orere, I could just 0:41:44.440 --> 0:41:46.600 look at the skull and no, it's like, well they 0:41:46.600 --> 0:41:50.799 have close set eyes far apartized. So it's it's the 0:41:52.080 --> 0:41:55.000 it's the overall look of the face. It's the head shape, 0:41:55.040 --> 0:41:57.759 where the features are. See, we don't know everything. We 0:41:57.800 --> 0:41:59.839 don't know a lot of things with a facial approximation, 0:42:00.360 --> 0:42:02.960 but we know where the features are. We can determine 0:42:02.960 --> 0:42:05.200 some things like the shape of the nose, the length, 0:42:05.280 --> 0:42:09.960 things like that, and you can never get I've had 0:42:09.960 --> 0:42:13.800 some that were like scary clothes that were really like wow, 0:42:13.840 --> 0:42:16.239 you know, the anthropologist and I were very happy with. 0:42:17.760 --> 0:42:21.359 But you can't get perfection, and that's actually not necessary 0:42:21.520 --> 0:42:26.000 because in a facial approximation, you're looking for recognition from somebody, 0:42:26.040 --> 0:42:29.440 a family member that is looking for that person. You 0:42:29.440 --> 0:42:32.000 could do a facial approximation, it's gonna look like fifty people. 0:42:32.640 --> 0:42:35.320 It could be fifty different people. But if a family 0:42:35.360 --> 0:42:38.600 member is looking for their missing brother and they see 0:42:38.640 --> 0:42:42.680 that sculpture, you just they could key on it and go, Okay, 0:42:42.680 --> 0:42:45.880 that looks like my brother or that's familiar. That's what 0:42:45.920 --> 0:42:46.640 we're going for. 0:42:49.840 --> 0:42:52.359 It's just so interesting to me. I'm reading a book 0:42:52.360 --> 0:42:55.960 with my daughter right now, a National Geographic book about 0:42:56.120 --> 0:42:59.440 Mommy's Oh Okay, and they're talking about how they found 0:42:59.840 --> 0:43:02.480 this one on Mount Everest. I think he was labeled 0:43:02.480 --> 0:43:05.319 the Iceman or something. But they were showing how they 0:43:05.400 --> 0:43:08.680 took his skull and they recreated it to what he 0:43:08.719 --> 0:43:11.080 would look like. And you know, my daughter's ten, so 0:43:11.160 --> 0:43:12.080 she was just like, well. 0:43:11.920 --> 0:43:13.480 How did it? 0:43:13.520 --> 0:43:16.040 Was cool? They were I think in the book they 0:43:16.080 --> 0:43:19.920 said that you couldn't really tell from the nose and 0:43:19.960 --> 0:43:22.759 the ears maybe as much what they would look like, 0:43:22.880 --> 0:43:26.279 but the they the guy was from European descent, and 0:43:26.320 --> 0:43:29.000 they were able to do the what is it called 0:43:29.000 --> 0:43:32.239 the facial approximations or whatever based on that, like how 0:43:32.280 --> 0:43:34.759 thick this soft tissue would be in certain areas of 0:43:34.800 --> 0:43:35.720 the face and stuff. 0:43:35.920 --> 0:43:39.040 Yeah, yeah, so we we generally saw a we have 0:43:39.280 --> 0:43:44.520 tissued up tables just as as a guideline. Uh. Ears 0:43:44.680 --> 0:43:46.879 ears are just we know where they are, but they 0:43:46.880 --> 0:43:51.560 don't really They're not important for identification because if somebody 0:43:51.640 --> 0:43:53.279 had big ears, you're not going to know that from 0:43:53.280 --> 0:43:56.640 the skull. Things like the nose as long as the skull, 0:43:56.719 --> 0:43:59.359 as long as the nose is fairly intact, we can 0:43:59.360 --> 0:44:01.240 tell a lot of it. We could tell if somebody 0:44:01.239 --> 0:44:04.839 has a long, crooked nose that points up and goes 0:44:04.880 --> 0:44:07.640 to the left. The problem is in the forensic world 0:44:08.080 --> 0:44:11.960 is that a lot of them are homesides. So if 0:44:11.960 --> 0:44:14.160 they were shot in the face or or beat up, 0:44:14.680 --> 0:44:16.279 or you know, the skull has been out in the 0:44:16.320 --> 0:44:20.879 elements for how many years, little tiny bones get eaten up. 0:44:21.040 --> 0:44:24.960 So the nasal spine, which you know, is one of 0:44:25.239 --> 0:44:28.160 one of the features that we look at to determine 0:44:28.160 --> 0:44:30.360 the position of the nose, that the direction up or 0:44:30.440 --> 0:44:34.959 down or average that is I would say nine times 0:44:35.000 --> 0:44:37.040 out of ten that was gone by the time it 0:44:37.160 --> 0:44:39.239 got to me. Because you know, skull had been out 0:44:39.239 --> 0:44:43.240 there five to ten years and you know, a squirrel 0:44:43.320 --> 0:44:46.040 shoot it off or something, or it had been you know, 0:44:47.200 --> 0:44:50.680 the person had been you know, do trauma or something. 0:44:51.280 --> 0:44:56.120 So the skulls that forensic artists get are they've been 0:44:56.160 --> 0:44:58.640 through a lot. They've they've been through a lot by 0:44:58.640 --> 0:44:58.960 that name. 0:44:59.160 --> 0:44:59.880 They're not like texts. 0:45:00.560 --> 0:45:05.080 Yeah. So yeah, so that was that was part of 0:45:05.120 --> 0:45:07.000 the reason why I went to the body flarm. Not 0:45:07.000 --> 0:45:09.000 to jump ahead, but that was part of the reasons 0:45:09.040 --> 0:45:13.040 to try to learn more about what this nose looks like, 0:45:13.360 --> 0:45:15.799 you know, the nasal aperture, and then how might that 0:45:15.920 --> 0:45:21.040 look in lives and yeah, so the so that's the 0:45:21.080 --> 0:45:24.760 difference between you know, the forensic ones and the historical ones. 0:45:24.800 --> 0:45:27.080 You know, sometimes historical ones are in great shape either, 0:45:27.160 --> 0:45:32.359 but you're not. You're not looking for an ID. So 0:45:32.680 --> 0:45:34.920 it's not like there's anything on the line. It's not 0:45:35.400 --> 0:45:38.239 because they yeah there's yeah, there's there's no it's not 0:45:38.280 --> 0:45:40.400 a high stakes thing, and. 0:45:40.600 --> 0:45:42.600 It's just it also see what the guy might have 0:45:42.640 --> 0:45:43.040 looked like. 0:45:43.120 --> 0:45:44.319 But it's it's fascinating. 0:45:44.360 --> 0:45:47.799 It's let's get on to talking about so you your 0:45:47.840 --> 0:45:51.000 book it comes out today, which is it's awesome. I 0:45:51.080 --> 0:45:53.239 read it and so did my daughter, but loved it. 0:45:53.320 --> 0:45:55.879 What made you decide that you were going to write 0:45:55.880 --> 0:45:58.360 a book or write a book about this topic? Like, 0:45:58.400 --> 0:46:00.680 what is your book about? Is it about your life? 0:46:00.760 --> 0:46:01.920 Is it about a combination? 0:46:02.640 --> 0:46:05.719 It's it's about my time in the FBI. And I 0:46:05.719 --> 0:46:08.520 can honestly say that I was never going to write 0:46:08.520 --> 0:46:10.960 a book just I was an artist and was like, 0:46:11.040 --> 0:46:12.640 I'm not an author. I am not going to write 0:46:12.640 --> 0:46:18.879 a book. However, after what happened to me, there's it's 0:46:18.880 --> 0:46:21.000 sort of somebody asked me to describe the book, and 0:46:21.040 --> 0:46:23.240 I said, well, it's kind of a cross between Bones 0:46:23.280 --> 0:46:28.520 and Aaron Brockovich because it's it's my career. But then it's, 0:46:28.960 --> 0:46:31.160 oh my god, the battles that you have to fight 0:46:32.040 --> 0:46:36.520 when there's discrimination and harassment, and the crazy links that 0:46:36.640 --> 0:46:36.960 can go. 0:46:37.080 --> 0:46:40.840 Let's get into talking. Yeah, yeah, let's talk about that. 0:46:41.080 --> 0:46:44.560 So you had your career, you obviously have a strong 0:46:44.600 --> 0:46:47.680 passion for it, and you decided to create a website. 0:46:48.200 --> 0:46:51.480 What exactly did you do on this website? Was it 0:46:51.520 --> 0:46:53.680 to kind of teach others about forensic art? 0:46:53.800 --> 0:46:56.560 Yeah, it was purely that I'm going to make this 0:46:56.640 --> 0:46:59.239 point because I'm probably a forensic artist that I know. 0:46:59.239 --> 0:47:01.440 I was listening to this and make it clear. So 0:47:01.520 --> 0:47:03.920 in the FBI you need permission for pretty much everything. 0:47:04.280 --> 0:47:07.160 So I had permission to you know, you get permission 0:47:07.200 --> 0:47:10.080 to run a website. I chose to keep it anonymous 0:47:10.160 --> 0:47:12.560 because I didn't want to have FBI blare it everywhere 0:47:13.200 --> 0:47:15.880 and that I don't have that website up anymore. But 0:47:15.920 --> 0:47:18.120 it was called asked the Friends of Artists because I 0:47:18.160 --> 0:47:20.400 was getting like phone calls and emails from people, you know, 0:47:20.480 --> 0:47:21.800 I want to be a friends of artists how to 0:47:22.000 --> 0:47:24.560 do it? And there was no source out there, just 0:47:24.600 --> 0:47:28.279 like when I was twelve or thirteen and saw there 0:47:28.320 --> 0:47:31.680 was no resource. So I wanted to create a resource 0:47:31.719 --> 0:47:33.720 for people who wanted to be a friends of artists 0:47:33.719 --> 0:47:36.919 to help them get in the field, which is which 0:47:37.000 --> 0:47:39.200 is yeah, that was That was my whole thing. So 0:47:40.000 --> 0:47:42.479 I still actually have I could push a button and 0:47:42.520 --> 0:47:45.400 make the website lie it again, which I might do. 0:47:47.000 --> 0:47:51.279 You know, you should, but it was everything was like, 0:47:51.360 --> 0:47:53.080 you know, what what training do I need? Do I 0:47:53.120 --> 0:47:56.640 need a degree? You know, where are the jobs handing 0:47:56.640 --> 0:48:00.759 get into it? It was it was purely educated and 0:48:02.000 --> 0:48:04.040 I don't know. I just I'm the kind of person 0:48:04.120 --> 0:48:06.520 if I find out something cool, I want to like 0:48:06.560 --> 0:48:08.839 grab the first person out go this cry I found out, 0:48:08.920 --> 0:48:10.960 like you know, I look, you know, did you know 0:48:11.000 --> 0:48:13.759 what happens when the skull does this? It's just I 0:48:13.760 --> 0:48:15.279 don't know, It's just kind of my nature. I just 0:48:15.320 --> 0:48:17.960 I loved it so much that I just kind of 0:48:18.000 --> 0:48:21.279 wanted to share it. And like I said, literally I 0:48:21.280 --> 0:48:25.840 would get phone calls and emails people not true me, 0:48:26.160 --> 0:48:30.680 but my name got my name got associate with the 0:48:30.719 --> 0:48:33.960 FBI because sometimes they would happens to interviews and everything. 0:48:34.239 --> 0:48:36.360 And then I was getting phone calls and emails like 0:48:36.360 --> 0:48:38.480 how can I be a friends of artist at work? 0:48:38.880 --> 0:48:41.040 And I was like, I'm sorry, I can't. I can't 0:48:41.120 --> 0:48:42.640 sit here and tell you how to be a friends 0:48:42.640 --> 0:48:45.319 of artists. So that was part of it too, to 0:48:46.280 --> 0:48:47.719 put the information out there. 0:48:47.960 --> 0:48:51.640 And what happened. So you have this website and it's 0:48:51.680 --> 0:48:54.120 it's awesome for people that want to learn about your 0:48:54.120 --> 0:48:55.440 profession and what happened. 0:48:56.440 --> 0:48:57.520 Oh, you mean the co plane. 0:48:58.320 --> 0:49:02.520 So someone that was an if former FBI employee complained 0:49:02.560 --> 0:49:02.800 about it. 0:49:02.960 --> 0:49:06.640 No, she had taught we would have guest instructors at 0:49:06.680 --> 0:49:10.799 the FBI Academy. So for the facial levaging course, they 0:49:10.800 --> 0:49:12.919 would have you know, FBI people teaching, but then also 0:49:12.920 --> 0:49:15.359 there would be guest instructors. So she had taught at 0:49:15.360 --> 0:49:19.800 the academy. And I got called into my boss's office 0:49:19.840 --> 0:49:22.240 one day and she saw my website and she didn't 0:49:22.320 --> 0:49:24.759 like it, and she decided to write a complaint letter 0:49:24.840 --> 0:49:26.799 to somebody way up in the FBI. And I got 0:49:26.800 --> 0:49:30.799 called on the carpet and I actually didn't get in 0:49:30.840 --> 0:49:34.000 trouble for that. I mean, I had to explain myself. 0:49:34.000 --> 0:49:35.840 I didn't feel like I was in trouble at the moment. 0:49:36.239 --> 0:49:39.759 It turns out I didn't. I didn't know it was coming. 0:49:40.120 --> 0:49:45.960 But you had permission to do it, right, Yeah, So 0:49:46.080 --> 0:49:47.880 now all of a sudden it was a problem. 0:49:48.320 --> 0:49:51.800 It was for me. It was why is this person 0:49:51.880 --> 0:49:55.200 doing this? Because what did I induced for her? And 0:49:55.640 --> 0:49:58.160 I am not doing anything wrong. And you know, I 0:49:58.200 --> 0:50:00.359 just spoken to my super like they knew I had 0:50:00.360 --> 0:50:06.040 a website. I believe I still have the email in 0:50:06.120 --> 0:50:09.440 case it's like this is not bad memory. So my 0:50:09.480 --> 0:50:12.080 SuperM sent me the email, so it was it was 0:50:12.120 --> 0:50:16.400 a complaint letter. I think this is unprofessional. And then 0:50:16.440 --> 0:50:20.000 there was a ps the bloggers and FBI employed and 0:50:20.000 --> 0:50:23.759 it's like, well, I didn't have that on my website 0:50:23.800 --> 0:50:26.840 on purpose, and I guess that was supposed to be 0:50:26.880 --> 0:50:29.920 a zinger. And I don't know. I all I can 0:50:29.960 --> 0:50:35.080 say is I mean, I was devastated. I was devastated 0:50:35.080 --> 0:50:37.400 because it was like, I'm not. All I'm trying to 0:50:37.400 --> 0:50:41.000 do is you know, educate bat friends of art. I 0:50:41.040 --> 0:50:43.799 guess I only can say is there are you know, 0:50:43.920 --> 0:50:47.680 some people women who support other women and others should don't. 0:50:47.800 --> 0:50:51.239 And I've had the same exact things happened to me, 0:50:51.320 --> 0:50:53.640 trust me, so I one hundred percent understand. 0:50:54.280 --> 0:50:54.520 Yeah. 0:50:54.600 --> 0:50:57.239 Actually, when my daughter read your book, she was like, 0:50:57.440 --> 0:51:01.560 this lady has your exact life, Like yeah, she she 0:51:01.760 --> 0:51:05.239 just said it was it was crazy and because she 0:51:05.320 --> 0:51:07.319 had read it first and she's just like, you just 0:51:07.360 --> 0:51:09.520 won't believe it. She just went through the same exact 0:51:09.520 --> 0:51:13.440 stuff that you go through, you know. Yeah, And it's 0:51:13.560 --> 0:51:17.600 and it's always just I think that people are jealous 0:51:17.640 --> 0:51:20.160 because they didn't have the idea first or something. I 0:51:20.160 --> 0:51:23.080 don't know, just haters, people that are bored. I don't 0:51:23.080 --> 0:51:26.160 know what it is, but there's there's people that will 0:51:26.560 --> 0:51:29.360 use all of their energy to try to destroy you. 0:51:29.480 --> 0:51:32.960 It's it's it's really it's really crazy what. 0:51:33.000 --> 0:51:35.880 You can't do. It is it's it's I don't understand. 0:51:35.920 --> 0:51:37.720 It's like you know, the what is it, the crabs 0:51:37.760 --> 0:51:40.520 in the barrel, you know that, you know, trying to 0:51:40.600 --> 0:51:42.880 drag you in the person down. It's like, I don't 0:51:42.920 --> 0:51:46.759 get it. I don't understand. And you know it's like 0:51:47.080 --> 0:51:49.600 I'm no competition. It's like but then people are like, 0:51:49.600 --> 0:51:51.200 well you were at the FBI. I was like, well, 0:51:51.520 --> 0:51:54.480 she has an awesome career, Like I don't get it. 0:51:54.520 --> 0:51:58.279 But you know, how did so did she somehow know 0:51:58.440 --> 0:52:00.440 that you were running the site? Because if you were 0:52:00.480 --> 0:52:05.319 anonymous on your site, like, how did right? How did she? 0:52:05.520 --> 0:52:08.160 How would she know to say, oh, this person's an 0:52:08.160 --> 0:52:10.680 employee the FBI. If you never said that you were. 0:52:10.600 --> 0:52:13.440 Oh my god. The fact that you asked this, Like 0:52:13.520 --> 0:52:16.319 I said, we were friends slash acquaintances, like I met 0:52:16.320 --> 0:52:19.520 her in person many times. She wrote to me and 0:52:19.600 --> 0:52:24.239 she said, oh is this your is this your website? 0:52:24.880 --> 0:52:27.200 I see this new news? Asked a friend saith artist, 0:52:27.280 --> 0:52:30.799 is that you? And I went I remember writing back 0:52:30.840 --> 0:52:33.120 you Sly Fox you figured it out like thinking it 0:52:33.160 --> 0:52:35.440 was fun and guinn It's like, oh, I'm figured out 0:52:35.440 --> 0:52:38.640 it was mek God. And then literally like two days 0:52:38.719 --> 0:52:41.040 later they called into the office and that is the 0:52:41.080 --> 0:52:43.560 hand to got what happened. And that's why I was like, 0:52:43.760 --> 0:52:46.960 I was like, damn it, she fooled. Like it's like 0:52:47.000 --> 0:52:48.360 I didn't know it was you, but now you just 0:52:48.400 --> 0:52:52.520 confirmed it. So yeah, that was yeah, and I just 0:52:52.600 --> 0:52:54.640 I've happened anonymous a weirdo. 0:52:55.320 --> 0:52:59.480 Yeah, it was just you know, so after that your 0:52:59.520 --> 0:53:02.920 work found doubt about it, things started getting bad for you. 0:53:03.640 --> 0:53:06.239 Things things were turning because there was a lot of 0:53:06.239 --> 0:53:09.600 transition during that time. So it was like in the 0:53:09.640 --> 0:53:13.480 summer of twenty two thousand and nine, like everything there 0:53:13.520 --> 0:53:19.200 was reorganization and new supervisors and so it was kind 0:53:19.239 --> 0:53:24.800 of like the perfect storm of things. And my new supervisors, 0:53:25.040 --> 0:53:29.280 one in particular just did not like friends of artists, 0:53:29.320 --> 0:53:33.120 and you know, he had he was a photographer, he 0:53:33.160 --> 0:53:36.080 about hey ran the Puto group, and he had friends 0:53:36.120 --> 0:53:38.960 of artists stuffed in his lap and he didn't like it. 0:53:39.040 --> 0:53:40.839 And he was very open about the fact that he 0:53:40.880 --> 0:53:44.960 did not like having friends of artists in unit. So 0:53:45.000 --> 0:53:49.759 he had an asta grind, you know, and especially against me. 0:53:49.880 --> 0:53:53.240 I don't know. People asked me, why was he picking 0:53:53.280 --> 0:53:55.719 on you? And I said, maybe sun Redhead in his 0:53:55.840 --> 0:53:59.440 childhood like made him. Man. I don't know, there was 0:53:59.840 --> 0:54:02.560 there was just some people that twins tail of Taylor Smiths. 0:54:02.640 --> 0:54:04.880 Some people are just mean. But yeah, I was like 0:54:04.920 --> 0:54:06.960 I had a I have a target on my back 0:54:07.200 --> 0:54:09.680 and that kind of guy. I think that gave him 0:54:09.719 --> 0:54:12.920 a foothold because from the moment we were put in 0:54:12.960 --> 0:54:15.839 the unit, he was trying to get us out. I mean, 0:54:15.920 --> 0:54:17.880 that was common up. He told us, he said, I 0:54:17.960 --> 0:54:20.719 don't want you in this. You know, there's myself and 0:54:20.760 --> 0:54:24.799 several other friends of artists, and because he had lost 0:54:24.840 --> 0:54:28.480 several photographers, there was like a swap of personnel, so 0:54:28.520 --> 0:54:31.800 he wanted his photographers back. He didn't want us, and 0:54:32.280 --> 0:54:34.680 that was just the first thing he could latch onto, 0:54:34.760 --> 0:54:37.080 like that letter to upper management, because I didn't go 0:54:37.080 --> 0:54:39.800 to him, and it went like several levels above him, 0:54:40.000 --> 0:54:42.440 and so he got called into somebody's helf as like, 0:54:42.920 --> 0:54:45.239 you know, I guess what this friends of artists did 0:54:45.400 --> 0:54:46.680 even though I was doing nothing wrong. 0:54:46.760 --> 0:54:50.440 But do you think there's a possibility that someone at 0:54:50.480 --> 0:54:54.680 the top was like, we need to get rid of her, like, 0:54:54.880 --> 0:54:57.479 no matter what, this is not good that because she's 0:54:57.560 --> 0:55:00.640 like willing to talk publicly about No. 0:55:00.880 --> 0:55:03.080 No, I mean the person I knew, the person that 0:55:03.120 --> 0:55:05.840 she sent it to, and actually she wouldn't be surprised 0:55:05.840 --> 0:55:07.640 to know that I was on good terms with him, 0:55:08.640 --> 0:55:11.080 So he didn't have a problem with me. So it 0:55:13.719 --> 0:55:16.320 People complain about the FBI all the time, Like if 0:55:16.440 --> 0:55:20.680 my in my book that I felt my former supervisor Gary, 0:55:20.800 --> 0:55:24.040 if that had happened with Gary, he would have laughed 0:55:24.080 --> 0:55:26.640 his butt off and said, oh my god, you know, 0:55:26.840 --> 0:55:28.400 and he would he would have laughed at all. He 0:55:29.040 --> 0:55:33.040 would have taken it like not seriously at all, because 0:55:33.080 --> 0:55:35.040 he had the same thing happened to him, you know, 0:55:35.080 --> 0:55:37.760 when he was coming up and everything. Like people, people, 0:55:38.440 --> 0:55:42.520 they try to bring you down. So but this so Gary, 0:55:42.760 --> 0:55:46.040 the previous supervisor, never would have been an issue. It 0:55:46.080 --> 0:55:47.879 would have been like because he knew her, he knew 0:55:47.880 --> 0:55:51.080 how she was the new supervisor. Because he wanted friends 0:55:51.080 --> 0:55:53.120 of guardists out of the unit. That was kind of 0:55:53.160 --> 0:55:55.520 like the first little chip that he could try to 0:55:55.560 --> 0:55:58.680 get a toe hold on. So it didn't do the 0:55:58.680 --> 0:56:03.160 trick as far as up upper management, you know, giving 0:56:03.160 --> 0:56:05.279 me the sting guy, but it didn't have my supervisor 0:56:05.880 --> 0:56:07.600 because he thought he had something on me. 0:56:09.040 --> 0:56:12.600 It was also, yeah, there's always like some man troll 0:56:12.680 --> 0:56:15.360 that's trying to get I had this. I had the 0:56:15.400 --> 0:56:19.760 same thing, just like some what the one female doctor 0:56:19.800 --> 0:56:22.000 at my work used to call them man child like 0:56:22.920 --> 0:56:25.000 just trying to get rid of me and felt so 0:56:25.120 --> 0:56:27.240 threatened by me, even though they were in a higher 0:56:27.280 --> 0:56:27.960 position than me. 0:56:28.000 --> 0:56:29.000 It was so weird. 0:56:29.440 --> 0:56:32.880 Yeah, So when you were working there at the FBI, 0:56:33.640 --> 0:56:35.840 so I a couple of months ago. I don't know 0:56:35.840 --> 0:56:38.400 if you heard my interview with doctor Daniel Wescov, but 0:56:38.560 --> 0:56:41.520 he is a forensic anthropologist. Yeah, I love him. He 0:56:41.640 --> 0:56:45.440 was awesome. He's a forensic anthropologist that and professor at 0:56:45.440 --> 0:56:48.560 the body Farm at Texas State University. And he talked 0:56:48.560 --> 0:56:52.319 about the body farm. So I was interested to learn 0:56:52.440 --> 0:56:54.839 that you went there as part of your job as 0:56:54.880 --> 0:56:57.319 the FBI. So could you explain to us what you 0:56:57.400 --> 0:57:00.240 were doing there, because this was all around the same time. 0:57:00.800 --> 0:57:03.000 Actually went I went to two different body farms. So 0:57:03.040 --> 0:57:05.120 I went to the first body farm that you know, 0:57:05.160 --> 0:57:09.120 the original at University of Tennessee. I went there six times. 0:57:10.200 --> 0:57:12.520 And so that was a research project that I started because, 0:57:12.520 --> 0:57:14.360 like I said, you know, we were trying to I 0:57:14.400 --> 0:57:16.920 wanted to know, like, what does this not look like 0:57:16.920 --> 0:57:19.840 give real life and forensic artists. We did not have. 0:57:21.080 --> 0:57:23.760 We didn't have any you know, proof, We didn't have 0:57:23.800 --> 0:57:26.160 a skull. In the perfect world, you would have a 0:57:26.160 --> 0:57:27.840 photo of a skull on a photo of the person 0:57:27.920 --> 0:57:30.840 in life and you go, oh, okay, like start drawing 0:57:30.880 --> 0:57:35.680 some correlations. And we didn't have that. So when I 0:57:36.240 --> 0:57:40.320 read Death's Sake gre throwing a second time, and when 0:57:40.320 --> 0:57:43.120 I found out that they had, I was going to 0:57:43.160 --> 0:57:45.520 donate my body. So this is how it started is 0:57:45.880 --> 0:57:48.120 I saw that they were selecting, and this is how 0:57:48.160 --> 0:57:51.920 it all began. I saw that on the application they 0:57:51.920 --> 0:57:55.040 were asking for a driver's license photos and then it 0:57:55.080 --> 0:57:57.000 was like the cartoon light bulb over my head. I 0:57:57.040 --> 0:57:58.640 was like, oh my god, they have photos and these 0:57:58.640 --> 0:58:02.560 are donors. So the FBI laboratory being a laboratory, they 0:58:02.560 --> 0:58:05.360 do research, and so we were, you know, and this 0:58:05.400 --> 0:58:08.320 is my previous bossons I run up a research project. 0:58:08.400 --> 0:58:10.840 Let's go to the body farm and get all the 0:58:10.880 --> 0:58:13.240 donors they have that have life photos and all three 0:58:13.280 --> 0:58:16.120 d scan them and then put together a reference collection 0:58:16.160 --> 0:58:19.360 Sir forensic artists, and so we went there six times. 0:58:19.400 --> 0:58:20.400 So that's so cool. 0:58:20.880 --> 0:58:23.080 It was I just gave myself goose bumps. It was 0:58:24.080 --> 0:58:26.160 was rewarding. It was just like, oh my god. It 0:58:26.240 --> 0:58:29.160 was like I'm starting to sound like a goofball right now. 0:58:29.160 --> 0:58:31.080 But it was so exciting. It was like we had 0:58:31.600 --> 0:58:34.120 we collected over one hundred skulls. We had their skulls, 0:58:34.160 --> 0:58:36.840 we had their life photos, we had like the basic 0:58:37.000 --> 0:58:40.360 an you know, we had their anthroological information. So you know, 0:58:40.440 --> 0:58:43.280 I started putting together you know, I wanted to put 0:58:43.360 --> 0:58:47.360 together together a reference guide and you know that of course, 0:58:47.680 --> 0:58:50.200 you know obviously need to protect the privacy and the individuals, 0:58:50.240 --> 0:58:54.120 but because they had been donated and they donated themselves, 0:58:54.560 --> 0:58:57.040 it was allowed to be used for law enforcement for research. 0:58:57.280 --> 0:59:00.320 So my goal with that was to put to gather 0:59:00.840 --> 0:59:04.479 just like the composite catalog has facial references, my goal 0:59:04.560 --> 0:59:08.000 was to put together a catalog of Stouttal references to 0:59:08.040 --> 0:59:11.160 have the skull and the face. That was my goal, 0:59:11.560 --> 0:59:15.840 which didn't pan out for you know, reasons that became 0:59:15.920 --> 0:59:18.120 clear later in the book, but that was my goal. 0:59:18.360 --> 0:59:21.720 So then friends of artists could say on this knows 0:59:21.800 --> 0:59:23.800 that I'm working on as similar, you know, they could 0:59:24.000 --> 0:59:27.400 have some sort of guideline to look for. Everything else 0:59:27.480 --> 0:59:32.200 is pretty much anecdotal. And then after that project ended, 0:59:33.040 --> 0:59:37.240 another there was another research project going on, and so 0:59:37.720 --> 0:59:39.960 it kind of intertwined with ours. So we went to 0:59:40.000 --> 0:59:43.000 the Texas Bodies r and then we scanned a number 0:59:43.000 --> 0:59:45.400 of skulls there too, And I'm pretty sure I met 0:59:45.560 --> 0:59:48.320 doctor Westcott. He has a really big deer. Now. I 0:59:48.400 --> 0:59:52.000 was there turnament when I was there easily ten years ago, 0:59:52.600 --> 0:59:56.120 so I'm pretty much I'm pretty sure that's. 0:59:56.400 --> 1:00:00.320 Because I think he's been there for a while. So yeah, yeah, there, 1:00:00.400 --> 1:00:04.520 it seems like he's been there. That's so cool. It 1:00:05.360 --> 1:00:07.520 sounds like you were on the brink of you know, 1:00:07.600 --> 1:00:10.240 because a lot of people don't realize that when you're 1:00:10.240 --> 1:00:13.280 working with skulls, it's it's a face, and a face 1:00:13.360 --> 1:00:17.200 is considered an identifiable feature, so you would have to 1:00:17.240 --> 1:00:21.360 get permission. And the problem is is that the person's dead, 1:00:22.240 --> 1:00:25.000 so you can't really get permission from them anymore. But 1:00:25.160 --> 1:00:28.120 when they did give permission to donate their body towards 1:00:28.160 --> 1:00:31.120 these types of things, it sucks that you weren't able 1:00:31.160 --> 1:00:35.720 to follow through with that. You were talking earlier about 1:00:36.080 --> 1:00:39.480 you guys used like a sketch pen, and you weren't 1:00:39.800 --> 1:00:42.480 a patent paper to sketch, and you were talking about 1:00:43.120 --> 1:00:48.800 technology that exists on with computers and things like that. 1:00:49.040 --> 1:00:51.000 I guess you could use like a program even on 1:00:51.040 --> 1:00:54.440 an iPad or something to do drawings at this point, 1:00:54.960 --> 1:01:00.120 but while you were there, because now, for example, well 1:01:00.200 --> 1:01:02.480 even in this Mommy book that I'm reading with my daughter, 1:01:02.520 --> 1:01:05.160 which is already probably dated at this point a couple 1:01:05.160 --> 1:01:08.160 of years old, they show that they use AI and 1:01:08.200 --> 1:01:11.520 they're using scanning of skulls a lot and stuff as 1:01:11.520 --> 1:01:15.840 opposed to using the typical clay to do a sculpture 1:01:16.040 --> 1:01:19.640 or to use drawings. Did you see any of that 1:01:19.720 --> 1:01:22.120 before you had left the FBI, that they were moving 1:01:22.200 --> 1:01:26.560 over to more advanced technology as far as using those 1:01:26.800 --> 1:01:31.800 identifying features rather than using the traditional art materials. 1:01:31.800 --> 1:01:38.800 That. Yeah, Actually, I probably six months before I retire, 1:01:39.360 --> 1:01:43.440 I was going to transition to digital sculpting because it 1:01:43.600 --> 1:01:46.520 was the way things progress. That we always used to 1:01:46.520 --> 1:01:50.920 do two D approximations in the FBI, and the treaty 1:01:51.040 --> 1:01:54.040 came along when the group got a scanner, so we 1:01:54.080 --> 1:01:57.240 had never done treaty. This is about a point I 1:01:57.280 --> 1:01:59.520 need to make as far as working with clay and skulls, 1:01:59.520 --> 1:02:01.240 as you never put clay on the skull because the 1:02:01.280 --> 1:02:04.560 skull is evidence. Never never, never, So that's why we'd 1:02:04.600 --> 1:02:07.240 scan the skull, make a copy, and put you know, 1:02:07.400 --> 1:02:14.160 sculpt with clay on the replica. And then when we 1:02:14.160 --> 1:02:16.320 were doing that before they were like off the shelf 1:02:16.480 --> 1:02:18.920 three D sculpting programs. You know, there were three D 1:02:18.920 --> 1:02:21.600 sculpting programs out there, but they cost fifty thousand dollars. 1:02:21.800 --> 1:02:24.520 So that's why we did clay on replicas. And then 1:02:24.800 --> 1:02:27.400 as I'm not gonna be able to think of the name, 1:02:27.440 --> 1:02:29.280 I think I'm not gonna be able to think of 1:02:29.280 --> 1:02:32.080 the name of the software. But now there are even 1:02:32.320 --> 1:02:37.160 five years ago, off the shelf three D sculpting software. 1:02:37.280 --> 1:02:41.160 So I was I had ordered a new computer, so 1:02:41.200 --> 1:02:44.080 I had a great, big news souped up computer. I 1:02:44.120 --> 1:02:46.920 had ordered this, I got the software in and I 1:02:47.040 --> 1:02:53.000 was transitioning to sculpting digitally, which to me, it's it's 1:02:53.240 --> 1:02:55.560 better on it's it's better all around. I mean, it 1:02:55.560 --> 1:02:57.440 would be faster. There's no need to print a skull. 1:02:57.640 --> 1:03:02.280 You can see through the into the skull. So that's 1:03:02.280 --> 1:03:05.600 where I was going. And just as all that was 1:03:05.640 --> 1:03:11.120 coming together, I forced the naybe decide to retire or 1:03:11.120 --> 1:03:14.080 I retired. Yeah, that that's kind of explained in the book. 1:03:14.120 --> 1:03:17.960 It was just I guess to be like long, long 1:03:17.960 --> 1:03:20.560 story short. It was by then I was in a 1:03:20.600 --> 1:03:25.120 new unit with a fabulous supervisor, and things are really 1:03:25.120 --> 1:03:28.680 pretty great, and it was just sometimes I never thought 1:03:28.680 --> 1:03:32.280 I would leave friends of art, but just after a 1:03:32.360 --> 1:03:36.560 while it was like, I, yeah, some things you just can't. 1:03:37.800 --> 1:03:40.080 There's only so much stress to put up with. Because 1:03:40.600 --> 1:03:43.560 there was it was never I understand that it was 1:03:43.640 --> 1:03:47.280 never gone. The threat was always back there, like the 1:03:47.920 --> 1:03:52.040 threat that the not so's ailed threat was taking my clearance. 1:03:52.920 --> 1:03:55.880 And without a clearance you're dead meat. You can't work anywhere, 1:03:56.440 --> 1:04:02.880 and you're your debt. So so when I when I 1:04:02.920 --> 1:04:05.960 when those storm clouds started, I was like, you know what. 1:04:06.440 --> 1:04:10.080 And then also you know I had lost the just 1:04:10.920 --> 1:04:12.800 less than the year before. You know, my mom and 1:04:12.840 --> 1:04:15.320 my brother died within two months of each other, and 1:04:15.360 --> 1:04:18.600 that was like, yeah, no, that's that's that's fine. I mean, 1:04:18.760 --> 1:04:22.080 but you know, things like that, you know, you start 1:04:22.200 --> 1:04:24.120 sessing your life and you look around and you go, 1:04:24.280 --> 1:04:26.400 why am I, Why am I doing this? Why am 1:04:26.440 --> 1:04:28.640 I putting up with this? And what else can I do? 1:04:29.200 --> 1:04:32.240 And you know, after something like that, you know, you 1:04:32.320 --> 1:04:35.360 start thinking. And that's when that's when I was like, 1:04:35.400 --> 1:04:37.600 you know what I was. I was planning on retiring 1:04:37.600 --> 1:04:40.480 at sixty two, and when I was fifty eight, it's like, 1:04:40.560 --> 1:04:43.280 I'm eligible. Let's and my husband and I were like, 1:04:43.400 --> 1:04:46.400 let's just do something completely and utterly different, and that's 1:04:46.400 --> 1:04:48.280 what we did. We moved to Vegas. 1:04:49.240 --> 1:04:52.000 He was probably, yeah, I was going to say, like 1:04:52.080 --> 1:04:54.680 he was probably because when when I was working at 1:04:54.680 --> 1:04:56.600 the hospital and they were giving me a hard time, 1:04:56.640 --> 1:04:58.160 there were a few times that I would just come 1:04:58.200 --> 1:05:03.400 home and cry every day, like over over some bullshit, right, 1:05:03.480 --> 1:05:07.360 And my husband finally was just like, I can't have 1:05:07.520 --> 1:05:11.479 you like this anymore, you know, And it sucks because 1:05:11.480 --> 1:05:14.640 when you love your job so much, and it's not 1:05:14.760 --> 1:05:16.560 that you don't love your job. You love your job, 1:05:16.600 --> 1:05:19.360 it's just the people are making it absolutely brutal to 1:05:19.440 --> 1:05:22.720 work there. Well, so I have kind of like a 1:05:22.840 --> 1:05:27.640 juicy question. Okay, when I interned at the when I 1:05:27.720 --> 1:05:30.720 interned at the Philly M's office. I remember one day 1:05:30.760 --> 1:05:33.200 I was up in the offices and I saw these 1:05:33.280 --> 1:05:35.920 giant posters that were black and white and it had 1:05:35.960 --> 1:05:39.560 this really disturbing looking child on it that was dead, 1:05:40.200 --> 1:05:43.000 like looked like he was around five years old. And 1:05:43.080 --> 1:05:45.400 I was like, what is this. I said to the 1:05:45.520 --> 1:05:48.120 medical examiner that I was interning with, what the hell 1:05:48.240 --> 1:05:50.880 is this thing doing in the closet? And he was like, Oh, 1:05:50.920 --> 1:05:54.040 that's the boy in the box case, and I was 1:05:54.240 --> 1:05:56.320 I didn't know anything about it, and when I learned 1:05:56.360 --> 1:05:58.680 about it, it was crazy. It was a very high 1:05:58.760 --> 1:06:02.840 profile case that happened in Philadelphia where a young boy 1:06:03.040 --> 1:06:06.400 was found dead in a box and they recently have 1:06:06.640 --> 1:06:09.920 just figured out who the kid is, which is crazy. 1:06:10.400 --> 1:06:13.640 But I thought it was so cool that there was 1:06:13.680 --> 1:06:17.080 this old It wasn't the actual boy in the box 1:06:17.120 --> 1:06:19.520 in the closet, It was just these posters that they 1:06:19.560 --> 1:06:22.360 had made up at the time that said, you know 1:06:22.760 --> 1:06:25.400 who this is because nobody knew who this kid was 1:06:26.080 --> 1:06:29.480 and nobody had reported that a kid was missing, so like, 1:06:30.080 --> 1:06:33.360 five year olds don't just appear dead that nobody knows 1:06:33.440 --> 1:06:34.640 that they were missing. 1:06:34.360 --> 1:06:35.200 Right right? 1:06:35.440 --> 1:06:38.480 And I thought that cool piece of Philadelphia forensic history. 1:06:38.560 --> 1:06:40.480 Was so cool that it was just in the closet 1:06:40.520 --> 1:06:43.680 there because the office was old. As you were saying 1:06:44.240 --> 1:06:48.640 with says I and everything. There was a Philadelphia forensic 1:06:48.680 --> 1:06:51.200 show that was on at some point that would show 1:06:51.280 --> 1:06:54.120 with the Medical Examiner's office in Philadelphia, and it was 1:06:54.160 --> 1:06:57.600 all shiny and stainless steel, and I thought, like the 1:06:57.640 --> 1:07:00.840 Medical Examiner's Office. Well, I think that they move since then, 1:07:00.880 --> 1:07:04.920 but at the time it was very seventies wood paneling, 1:07:05.600 --> 1:07:10.440 just old building cubicles, all that fake wood stuff. But anyway, 1:07:10.440 --> 1:07:12.280 I thought it was really cool that that there was 1:07:12.320 --> 1:07:15.880 this this old Philadelphia forensic history there at the office 1:07:16.200 --> 1:07:18.360 when you and you said, when you started working at 1:07:18.360 --> 1:07:21.600 the FBI, they said, oh, here's our room of skulls 1:07:21.720 --> 1:07:25.480 or whatever. Were there some cases that were there that 1:07:25.680 --> 1:07:28.960 you were familiar with that that you couldn't believe you 1:07:29.000 --> 1:07:31.200 were seeing the actual real evidence in front of your 1:07:31.240 --> 1:07:32.640 eyes that they still had there. 1:07:33.520 --> 1:07:40.320 Yes, it was older cases. What was the book? Was it? 1:07:40.400 --> 1:07:45.440 Jeffrey Jeffrey McDonald's. He was a doctor and he was 1:07:45.480 --> 1:07:47.960 convicted of killing This was like during the sixties and 1:07:48.200 --> 1:07:52.720 seventies killing his wife. His wife and his kids and 1:07:52.840 --> 1:07:57.800 he was a military doctor. Fatal Fatal Vision. That was 1:07:57.840 --> 1:08:00.600 the book I remember reading Sadal Vision before I ever 1:08:00.600 --> 1:08:03.960 thought of being in the FBI. And then in the 1:08:04.080 --> 1:08:07.480 archives there were just like these big, you know, gray drawert, 1:08:07.720 --> 1:08:11.440 gray cabinets that had lots of case work, lots of 1:08:11.600 --> 1:08:16.559 exhibitits from years before. So I saw, you know, the 1:08:16.600 --> 1:08:19.680 crime scene photos from that Jeffred McDonald case, and it 1:08:19.800 --> 1:08:22.439 was like it was just it was I'm glad they 1:08:22.439 --> 1:08:25.120 were black and white at that, you know. Now, you know, 1:08:25.439 --> 1:08:28.320 within a few months, I was looking at a lot 1:08:28.360 --> 1:08:33.400 of gory things. But yeah, I remember seeing the trial 1:08:33.400 --> 1:08:35.800 work for the Jeffer McDonald case. That was the first 1:08:35.800 --> 1:08:37.519 thing that stuck in my mind. Was like I know 1:08:37.640 --> 1:08:41.800 this one. So that was and I kind of feel 1:08:41.880 --> 1:08:45.439 like an insider, like ooh, I saw this, but you know, 1:08:45.479 --> 1:08:47.840 it's just kind of like everyday work at the FBI. 1:08:47.920 --> 1:08:49.880 It's like, yeah, you know, yeah, I worked on this. 1:08:50.120 --> 1:08:54.560 That's not like blase or anything. But me, I was 1:08:54.600 --> 1:08:57.240 completely new and peeked out, like I'm going through this 1:08:57.360 --> 1:09:00.959 like it's a treasure trove, like just look throwing the files. 1:09:01.000 --> 1:09:02.479 And some of the other artists were like why do 1:09:02.560 --> 1:09:05.520 help it that for It's like because it's very interesting. 1:09:06.520 --> 1:09:10.880 It's yeah, is it hard when you're sitting around, like 1:09:11.000 --> 1:09:12.840 especially during the nine to eleven time? 1:09:13.320 --> 1:09:14.080 It was horrible. 1:09:14.160 --> 1:09:16.280 I mean I was I was in my early twenties, 1:09:16.280 --> 1:09:18.680 but I vividly remember everything that was going on at 1:09:18.720 --> 1:09:21.559 the time. Like you're sitting around at a dinner party 1:09:21.640 --> 1:09:25.519 or something, and everybody knows you work there, and they're 1:09:25.880 --> 1:09:28.920 you know, they're people are trying to talk about how 1:09:28.920 --> 1:09:31.320 are they how they figure out who the hijackers are? 1:09:31.360 --> 1:09:33.720 How do they figure out this? How where are all 1:09:33.760 --> 1:09:36.400 these people that are missing? And stuff? People have questions? 1:09:36.439 --> 1:09:39.439 Did did? How? Is it hard for you to just 1:09:40.720 --> 1:09:44.439 keep like keep that in, you know, just because you're 1:09:44.479 --> 1:09:47.559 saying it was very emotional, so you know, sometimes it 1:09:47.560 --> 1:09:49.680 feels better when you could talk about stuff when it 1:09:49.840 --> 1:09:52.400 upsets you, but you didn't really have anyone to talk It. 1:09:52.320 --> 1:09:56.760 Was Yeah, I wouldn't ever and I didn't want to 1:09:56.800 --> 1:09:59.280 talk about it. Like later, my husband and I weren't 1:09:59.280 --> 1:10:03.360 married that point, you know, so I would call him 1:10:03.360 --> 1:10:06.120 and you know, he you know, he noticed that I 1:10:06.200 --> 1:10:08.960 was down. It was just like at that point that 1:10:09.080 --> 1:10:11.959 was during you know, scanning all these photos and everything, 1:10:12.280 --> 1:10:15.320 and but the photos we were scanning, they were all 1:10:15.320 --> 1:10:18.479 like birthday parties and graduations and all these happy events. 1:10:18.800 --> 1:10:21.920 And then but you're knowing that this person is gone. 1:10:22.000 --> 1:10:24.120 So that was you know, you start, you know, you 1:10:24.160 --> 1:10:26.559 look at pictures of people smiling and happy and you go, oh, 1:10:26.600 --> 1:10:28.839 that's really nice, and then you go then you remember 1:10:29.240 --> 1:10:32.000 why you're scanning the picture and this person is gone. 1:10:32.520 --> 1:10:36.040 So it was yeah, so I didn't want to talk 1:10:36.080 --> 1:10:38.439 about it. I didn't want to talk about it later. 1:10:38.479 --> 1:10:41.559 It was like I just tried to, you know, try 1:10:41.600 --> 1:10:45.680 to try it. Yeah, and you know some of the yeah, 1:10:45.720 --> 1:10:50.160 I had to had to do some child a ducta 1:10:52.520 --> 1:10:55.400 Oh my god, some PEDOPHI don't take those. Yeah, those 1:10:56.280 --> 1:11:00.519 those you have to yeah before yeah, before that. I 1:11:00.800 --> 1:11:04.320 normally we wouldn't do that. There's like tesks Force, your 1:11:04.400 --> 1:11:07.640 special team at the FBI and at other agencies like 1:11:07.680 --> 1:11:11.280 at the National Center Missing Exploited Children that will look 1:11:11.320 --> 1:11:14.160 at these photos and then they try to sanitize them 1:11:14.240 --> 1:11:17.599 so they can you know, figure out, can they figure 1:11:17.600 --> 1:11:20.240 out what motel this is based on the bedspread and 1:11:20.280 --> 1:11:23.800 the curtains and things like that. So you know, I did. 1:11:23.960 --> 1:11:26.519 I did a few of those, not many that was enough. 1:11:27.120 --> 1:11:32.559 So yeah, you just I've actually talked to one of 1:11:32.560 --> 1:11:36.639 the FBI psychologists. She was a psychologist at the Academy, 1:11:36.680 --> 1:11:40.080 and just in a discussion, not anything formal, said, Okay, 1:11:40.120 --> 1:11:42.040 I'm going to have to look at these photos. I 1:11:42.080 --> 1:11:43.559 know they're coming in and I don't want to look 1:11:43.600 --> 1:11:46.320 at them, and how do I handle it? And you know, 1:11:46.400 --> 1:11:53.240 she's like just trying to compartmentalize it, and I just 1:11:53.360 --> 1:11:56.240 had to kind of disassociate and go, it's pixels out 1:11:56.280 --> 1:11:58.280 of screen, like zooming way in they would you know 1:11:58.280 --> 1:12:00.320 that it's just all these little pixels and stuff. Just 1:12:00.360 --> 1:12:05.200 trying to put it aside, and yeah, I'm I'm very blad. 1:12:05.240 --> 1:12:06.920 I only had to do a few of those. And 1:12:07.040 --> 1:12:10.360 actually I found out just by chance it one of 1:12:10.800 --> 1:12:13.960 one little girl was recover just one of the photos 1:12:14.000 --> 1:12:15.960 I worked on. And it's a huge team of people 1:12:16.000 --> 1:12:19.640 doing these things. It's not it's not like, oh, you know, 1:12:19.720 --> 1:12:21.600 I did this photo and she was found, but it 1:12:21.720 --> 1:12:23.879 was just I was on a tour of the National 1:12:23.960 --> 1:12:27.160 Center and this image comes up and they said she 1:12:27.240 --> 1:12:29.360 was recovered. I was like, oh, I know her, that's 1:12:29.640 --> 1:12:31.599 you know, one of the you know, how you had 1:12:31.600 --> 1:12:34.160 the boy in the box and this was like, you know, 1:12:34.920 --> 1:12:38.320 boots are you know she wore cowboy boots or something, 1:12:38.400 --> 1:12:41.280 So it was just that was nice. It's like, okay, 1:12:41.880 --> 1:12:43.679 you know I had to see this. But then later 1:12:43.800 --> 1:12:45.600 yes there was a happy ending. She was found and 1:12:45.640 --> 1:12:46.719 she's safe and recovered. 1:12:47.960 --> 1:12:52.920 Yeah, so does that happen that when I guess that's 1:12:52.960 --> 1:12:55.200 the question, like the follow through do you Cause a 1:12:55.200 --> 1:12:59.240 lot of times I'll do an autopsy or something. Well, 1:12:59.560 --> 1:13:01.880 it's it's better now when I was working at the 1:13:01.920 --> 1:13:04.439 hospital and I was so in depth, But sometimes I 1:13:04.560 --> 1:13:07.479 do like per dam autopsies, and I'll do it and 1:13:07.520 --> 1:13:09.519 then I submit the slides and everything, and then I 1:13:09.560 --> 1:13:11.880 really don't know, Like I kind of think, what I 1:13:11.920 --> 1:13:14.040 know how the person died, But then I don't really 1:13:14.080 --> 1:13:16.160 ever hear the follow through of the case, which I 1:13:17.000 --> 1:13:20.400 love like a full circle thing. So do your bosses 1:13:20.479 --> 1:13:23.920 sit down with you and say, like, hey, this case 1:13:23.960 --> 1:13:26.240 we've been working on was solved or is that something 1:13:26.280 --> 1:13:27.240 like you heard on the news. 1:13:27.439 --> 1:13:29.760 No, I mean some of the things that wouldn't make 1:13:29.840 --> 1:13:33.120 the news like we did. Usually the way I found 1:13:33.120 --> 1:13:35.360 out and you would never you didn't always find out 1:13:35.439 --> 1:13:37.760 It would basically be if the agent, like if I 1:13:37.800 --> 1:13:40.720 went out and I remember it did some you know, 1:13:40.840 --> 1:13:43.800 some cleposit sketches and then you know, the agent emailed me. 1:13:43.920 --> 1:13:45.360 Was like when we got and we got them, and 1:13:45.360 --> 1:13:47.960 this was something that didn't go and didn't make the news. 1:13:48.040 --> 1:13:53.679 It was a different thing. And I would I would 1:13:53.760 --> 1:13:56.360 have the capability because the FBI has, you know, the 1:13:56.400 --> 1:13:59.720 whole database that you know, I could probably have gone in, 1:14:00.040 --> 1:14:02.000 looked up and found out. I mean I could have 1:14:02.080 --> 1:14:04.519 called the agent after, you know, because I worked with 1:14:04.560 --> 1:14:07.320 a lot of agents, I could have called the detective 1:14:07.360 --> 1:14:10.320 to go, hey, what happened, But I guess I didn't 1:14:10.320 --> 1:14:12.120 want to annoy them. I thought, you know, I did 1:14:12.120 --> 1:14:14.519 my job. That was a tool for them to do 1:14:14.560 --> 1:14:17.519 their job, and then now they do their work. And 1:14:18.560 --> 1:14:21.679 I just was never comfortable calling them back and going like, hey, 1:14:21.680 --> 1:14:25.000 what happened? Did it work? And you know, lots of 1:14:25.040 --> 1:14:28.000 times things did, and they might you know, sometimes they 1:14:28.000 --> 1:14:31.040 would call like really or email like really ecstatic, like 1:14:31.080 --> 1:14:33.559 you know, oh my god, this is great. And sometimes 1:14:33.560 --> 1:14:35.920 you'd never hear and then you'd find out later that 1:14:36.880 --> 1:14:40.640 you know, you'd find out like I saw things. I 1:14:40.640 --> 1:14:42.599 would see things in the newspaper, like you know, if 1:14:42.600 --> 1:14:44.200 Pedophile it was a restaurant. I was not. Oh I 1:14:44.240 --> 1:14:47.000 worked on that, and oh this is funny. Went up 1:14:47.040 --> 1:14:50.519 my girlfriend Liz Heilinds. She called me one time and 1:14:50.600 --> 1:14:53.800 she said, oh, I just saw this one approximation and 1:14:53.840 --> 1:14:56.679 this person was ID and you know, did you work 1:14:56.720 --> 1:14:58.160 on that? And I was like who what? And she 1:14:58.200 --> 1:15:00.360 sent me the link and I was like, oh, I, yeah, 1:15:00.360 --> 1:15:02.559 that is mine. I had no My girlfriend found out 1:15:02.600 --> 1:15:05.120 she was ID before I did, and I worked at 1:15:05.120 --> 1:15:07.680 the end of the I Liz thought that was hysterical 1:15:09.080 --> 1:15:13.559 before I did. Yeah, I just I soon have probably 1:15:13.640 --> 1:15:17.479 kept track of like everything I did, and I kept 1:15:17.479 --> 1:15:19.680 good notes and I kept good records and everything. But 1:15:22.160 --> 1:15:23.760 I don't know. I kind of it's like, Okay, I 1:15:23.800 --> 1:15:25.840 did the work that and I would put it sign 1:15:25.840 --> 1:15:26.800 and go on to the next thing. 1:15:28.720 --> 1:15:30.680 I know I should. I always think about that too. 1:15:30.720 --> 1:15:33.000 I get so many because people say, like, how many 1:15:33.000 --> 1:15:35.280 autopsies have you did? Did you do this? And I 1:15:35.320 --> 1:15:37.639 have a pretty good recollection of like what I've seen, 1:15:38.240 --> 1:15:41.559 But I really wish that because sometimes it just want 1:15:41.600 --> 1:15:43.200 to pop in my head and I'll be like, oh 1:15:43.280 --> 1:15:45.519 I yeah, I did that, like I wish I wrote 1:15:45.560 --> 1:15:48.599 down more. You know. Yeah, it's just like I feel 1:15:48.600 --> 1:15:50.320 like you would do that now, But it's just like 1:15:50.400 --> 1:15:52.479 back then, you just go to work and do your 1:15:52.520 --> 1:15:54.600 thing and you just you know, I try to just 1:15:54.640 --> 1:15:56.599 take in as much as I can in my memory, 1:15:56.640 --> 1:16:00.240 and that's it. But so let's I don't I don't 1:16:00.240 --> 1:16:02.599 want to get into why exactly you left and everything, 1:16:02.600 --> 1:16:05.040 because we need to leave some stuff for your book. 1:16:06.600 --> 1:16:09.720 But since you you did leave now and you're not 1:16:09.800 --> 1:16:14.400 doing that anymore, so are you still interested in the 1:16:14.920 --> 1:16:16.719 whole like true crime world? 1:16:16.760 --> 1:16:17.040 Are you? 1:16:17.120 --> 1:16:21.000 Do you listen to podcasts and TV shows or things 1:16:21.040 --> 1:16:24.840 like that, or are you kind of like I'm over 1:16:24.880 --> 1:16:27.599 that part of my life and I'm just doing something 1:16:27.600 --> 1:16:28.920 else completely. 1:16:28.479 --> 1:16:30.160 Now For the most point, I'm over it, But I 1:16:30.160 --> 1:16:34.479 mean I'm still interested in it and the truth crime 1:16:34.520 --> 1:16:37.120 things that I'm interested in. I just watched this one. 1:16:37.160 --> 1:16:39.440 You might have heard of it. They called it mostly Harmless. 1:16:39.479 --> 1:16:42.880 It's about a hiker. It's on Netflix. It's a great documentary. 1:16:43.320 --> 1:16:47.519 But that was you know, that was a body that 1:16:47.560 --> 1:16:49.040 had been out of the woods, and you know, the 1:16:49.080 --> 1:16:54.920 internet was trying to trying to identify him. So I'm 1:16:54.920 --> 1:16:58.800 interested in things that are like the investigation part. I 1:16:58.840 --> 1:17:02.519 don't want to read about or see horrible murders like 1:17:02.560 --> 1:17:06.559 the This is a joke between me and my husband 1:17:06.920 --> 1:17:10.599 that the true crime stories out watched are more like 1:17:10.680 --> 1:17:13.880 the husband wives killing each other short of thing rather 1:17:13.960 --> 1:17:16.240 than home invasions, because it's like, I know my husband 1:17:16.280 --> 1:17:19.680 slept and kill me, so I'm safe there. So I 1:17:19.720 --> 1:17:22.320 know that sounds terrible, but I just you. 1:17:22.280 --> 1:17:26.639 Know, it's you're just you're like justin. Yeah, it does 1:17:26.680 --> 1:17:29.599 to me too, because I would be like watching forensic 1:17:29.640 --> 1:17:32.360 files all the time. My husband's a firefighter and he 1:17:32.360 --> 1:17:34.640 doesn't sleep at home sometimes, and then I would be 1:17:34.760 --> 1:17:38.160 so freaking scared at night because I would be like, oh, 1:17:38.160 --> 1:17:40.720 my god, like I saw this case last week and 1:17:40.760 --> 1:17:43.400 the guy broke in the house and he didn't even 1:17:43.439 --> 1:17:45.840 know who she was, like something that I could say, Oh, 1:17:45.880 --> 1:17:49.360 that could happen to me exactly. And then I wouldn't sleep. 1:17:49.400 --> 1:17:52.080 I'd be up all night, like scared to death. I 1:17:52.120 --> 1:17:55.040 had even when they when the girls, my girls were younger, 1:17:55.120 --> 1:17:56.960 I would have them sleep in bed with me because 1:17:56.960 --> 1:17:59.559 I was so scared. And then I and then I 1:17:59.600 --> 1:18:02.080 was like I can't watch this stuff anymore. I just can't. 1:18:02.560 --> 1:18:05.240 I can't do it until he's retired. Maybe I'll start 1:18:05.240 --> 1:18:05.960 watching it again. 1:18:06.040 --> 1:18:08.439 Yeah, I can't either. I'm with you there. It's like, 1:18:08.439 --> 1:18:10.000 like I said, I know it sounds Terrible's like's if 1:18:10.000 --> 1:18:12.280 it's a husband wife thing. You know that's you know 1:18:12.520 --> 1:18:15.519 that I can watch, but you know that I'll be 1:18:15.560 --> 1:18:19.479 gone in the dark. Do you like? That just terrified me. 1:18:19.600 --> 1:18:23.080 The the Golden State said, the Golden State Killer, the 1:18:23.080 --> 1:18:24.760 one that they identified through the genetic geno. 1:18:24.920 --> 1:18:28.439 Yeah, Michelle, Yeah, that one's really Yeah. 1:18:28.520 --> 1:18:30.240 That was Yeah, that was brutal. 1:18:30.320 --> 1:18:33.559 I wonder if it's like because for me and you, 1:18:33.640 --> 1:18:36.639 like I've been at the Medical Examiner's office and I've 1:18:36.640 --> 1:18:39.719 seen people, like with my own two eyes, multiple people 1:18:39.720 --> 1:18:41.880 that have been murdered. It's real for me and the 1:18:41.920 --> 1:18:44.920 same with you. You've seen all these skulls with people 1:18:44.960 --> 1:18:46.800 that have been killed. I wonder if it makes it 1:18:46.840 --> 1:18:50.800 even more scarier for us, because it's not just we're 1:18:50.840 --> 1:18:55.280 not some girl that works in the office and is 1:18:55.360 --> 1:18:58.240 watching this on TV and doesn't really know how horrible 1:18:58.280 --> 1:19:00.880 and gruesome it could be and how scared it is. Right, 1:19:01.520 --> 1:19:03.440 there's that element of the realness. 1:19:03.479 --> 1:19:06.680 Maybe I don't know what's really comical. This is this 1:19:06.720 --> 1:19:08.720 is this is funny? Is that you know I've been 1:19:08.920 --> 1:19:10.679 I've been to the Body of Barn and I've seen 1:19:10.960 --> 1:19:13.880 you know, horrible d comp and been right next to it, 1:19:14.000 --> 1:19:18.240 and you know that I can do it because it's 1:19:18.240 --> 1:19:21.800 fascinating and it was like it was interesting. But if 1:19:21.840 --> 1:19:24.720 there's this really bloody movie on TV, I can't watch it, 1:19:25.439 --> 1:19:28.160 like torture, Like I never watched Dempster and I knew 1:19:28.160 --> 1:19:30.800 they were bad guys. He's only torturing mad dies. But 1:19:31.560 --> 1:19:34.679 some stuff just it stays in my brain and I can't, 1:19:35.560 --> 1:19:38.120 you know, I can't get it out of my brain. 1:19:38.360 --> 1:19:40.360 I don't want that in my brain. Like at the 1:19:40.439 --> 1:19:41.880 if I can tell you this real quick, at the 1:19:41.920 --> 1:19:46.360 FBI Academy, they had in the behavioral Science unit, the 1:19:46.439 --> 1:19:49.200 one basically for the Silence of the Lands, that was 1:19:49.240 --> 1:19:54.120 that unit. So yeah, so yeah, so that's they're literally 1:19:54.200 --> 1:19:58.040 like three or four floors like the third or fourth basement. 1:19:58.080 --> 1:20:03.040 They're really down there. So they had the psychologists I 1:20:03.080 --> 1:20:06.080 was telling me about. She had all the drawings and 1:20:06.160 --> 1:20:08.839 notebooks of like set of sam like all the drawings 1:20:08.880 --> 1:20:11.880 they did so all these serial killers and all of 1:20:11.920 --> 1:20:15.640 their artwork, and she, you know, it was like a 1:20:15.720 --> 1:20:17.760 once in a lifetime thing because these things are not 1:20:17.800 --> 1:20:20.080 open to the public, and so she had them all 1:20:20.080 --> 1:20:22.839 out and she's explaining things, and it's like, I can't 1:20:24.040 --> 1:20:27.040 I can't have these drawings in my head because these 1:20:27.080 --> 1:20:31.120 men were drawing these things in prison, basically, you know, 1:20:31.280 --> 1:20:34.519 reliving the murders they had committed. And I don't want 1:20:34.560 --> 1:20:37.320 what was in their head in my head. I walked 1:20:37.360 --> 1:20:40.800 down the hallway we had a class. It was one 1:20:40.800 --> 1:20:44.560 of a facial facial imaging classes, and they were fascinated 1:20:44.640 --> 1:20:48.160 and I was like, I'm done. I don't don't want 1:20:48.160 --> 1:20:48.639 it in my head. 1:20:50.680 --> 1:20:54.000 Yeah, I understand that, because I feel the same way 1:20:54.080 --> 1:20:56.960 about a lot of that. It's scared. Like when when 1:20:56.960 --> 1:21:00.679 that guy, the guy killed the college student in Idaho. 1:21:00.800 --> 1:21:02.760 Yes, I don't know if you've heard of it. Oh, yeah, 1:21:02.760 --> 1:21:03.519 I'm sure you've heard. 1:21:03.400 --> 1:21:06.400 About that case. It's just like I don't know when, 1:21:06.720 --> 1:21:09.680 especially it freaked me out when it happened. But then 1:21:09.720 --> 1:21:13.679 when they released his photo and video of him being arrested, 1:21:13.760 --> 1:21:16.120 his face like scared the shit out of me, Like 1:21:16.160 --> 1:21:20.479 his eyes are so creepy, and I just I just 1:21:20.640 --> 1:21:23.799 it like shook me. You know, I don't know these people, 1:21:23.840 --> 1:21:25.960 I don't know, I don't know anything about it, but 1:21:26.080 --> 1:21:30.720 something about it I just was like, especially because, like 1:21:30.760 --> 1:21:32.720 you said, when it's a husband and wife, you could 1:21:32.760 --> 1:21:34.639 see they get in fights all the time and they 1:21:34.800 --> 1:21:36.880 and they kill each other in the passion. And but 1:21:36.960 --> 1:21:40.960 when it's strangers and people don't know that they're being 1:21:41.000 --> 1:21:43.360 stalked and all this stuff, it's just so scary to me. 1:21:44.240 --> 1:21:49.599 All Right, sing a little bit more cheery. Let's talk 1:21:49.640 --> 1:21:51.960 about your personal life. So you talked about your husband 1:21:52.040 --> 1:21:55.360 a couple of times. When so at what point of 1:21:55.640 --> 1:21:59.840 your whole career and transition from Navy and to FBI 1:22:00.120 --> 1:22:02.960 every end? John Hopkins too, when did you meet him? 1:22:02.960 --> 1:22:05.519 How'd you meet him? And when did you guys get married? 1:22:06.560 --> 1:22:10.120 Uh So, we met when I was waiting to go 1:22:10.160 --> 1:22:12.720 into the FBI. So it was a sure thing that 1:22:12.760 --> 1:22:15.599 I was, well, you know, I was going, I'm sorry, 1:22:15.680 --> 1:22:19.200 me start that over. We met when I was waiting 1:22:19.200 --> 1:22:24.719 to go on the FBI. I'm sorry, my brain, and 1:22:24.920 --> 1:22:26.680 we met and we actually met in person at the 1:22:26.760 --> 1:22:30.400 lunch and I I was recently divorced and so I 1:22:30.520 --> 1:22:32.519 was he and it was just like just friends, like 1:22:32.600 --> 1:22:34.679 I don't I don't want anything to do with men. 1:22:34.720 --> 1:22:37.439 I'm done, I'm done, i'm done, got my cat and 1:22:37.479 --> 1:22:41.360 I'm done, and you know, but we just started talking. 1:22:41.520 --> 1:22:45.840 It was like this guy's really just wonderful and we 1:22:45.840 --> 1:22:48.560 were we were friends, and then I just fell in 1:22:48.600 --> 1:22:50.719 love with a guy because he's amazing and he's wonderful 1:22:50.760 --> 1:22:52.200 and he's going to be embarrassed at this, but I 1:22:52.240 --> 1:22:55.120 don't care. So yeah, so. 1:22:55.040 --> 1:22:59.360 He how does he feel about what does he do 1:22:59.479 --> 1:23:00.240 for a living? 1:23:01.000 --> 1:23:05.840 Well, he uh, he's a he was ah and he's 1:23:05.880 --> 1:23:10.639 still doing it. A videographer and producer. So he worked. 1:23:10.640 --> 1:23:13.040 He also worked for the federal government, so he was 1:23:13.120 --> 1:23:16.840 he was making kind of like news stories, you know, 1:23:16.920 --> 1:23:20.120 things they would have a news channel sort of about 1:23:20.120 --> 1:23:23.599 in some of the the work and events that these 1:23:23.640 --> 1:23:27.679 military agencies would do. And he would go out. One time, 1:23:27.680 --> 1:23:29.599 Oh my god, he was on the back of an airplane. 1:23:29.640 --> 1:23:32.519 It was they had the back open and he was 1:23:32.960 --> 1:23:35.439 showing me video and he's like, why are the hardest on? 1:23:35.520 --> 1:23:37.960 I was like, I'm so, I'm so glad you didn't. 1:23:38.200 --> 1:23:39.519 He was like it was so cool. I missed lying 1:23:39.520 --> 1:23:40.760 on the back of this and it was open and 1:23:40.800 --> 1:23:42.360 all I have is a artist. I'm like, thank you 1:23:42.479 --> 1:23:47.200 very much. But yeah no, so yeah, I was like, oh, 1:23:47.200 --> 1:23:51.400 I'm so glad you only showed me up after Yeah. Yeah, 1:23:51.640 --> 1:23:52.719 So he's very creative. 1:23:52.760 --> 1:23:57.080 What's he think? Yeah, so that's cool to be because 1:23:57.120 --> 1:23:59.880 my husband's also very creative. It's good to like live 1:24:00.120 --> 1:24:04.160 a house that because sometimes I have like outrageous ideas, 1:24:04.200 --> 1:24:06.519 and you know, when you have an artist that's a 1:24:06.600 --> 1:24:10.200 husband too, then you can express those in your house 1:24:10.320 --> 1:24:13.439 or any they understand that you say, oh I completely 1:24:13.439 --> 1:24:16.560 hate this, I need to change it or whatever. He's 1:24:16.600 --> 1:24:20.479 how's he feel about you? Like knowing that you're you're 1:24:20.680 --> 1:24:23.160 handling human skulls all day at work and stuff. I 1:24:23.200 --> 1:24:25.720 mean he was just pretty cool with it obviously. 1:24:26.080 --> 1:24:29.080 Yeah. He was like, well, sometimes I would come home 1:24:29.080 --> 1:24:30.559 and say, oh my god, we got this one skull 1:24:30.600 --> 1:24:33.639 in our own you know, this is this one thing 1:24:33.640 --> 1:24:36.240 in this decomp by son. He's like, I want to know, 1:24:36.320 --> 1:24:37.439 Like I don't want to know, and I was like, no, 1:24:37.479 --> 1:24:39.320 it's really not fun, it's really not that cross and 1:24:39.320 --> 1:24:41.840 he's like no, no, like, don't tell me, don't topping. 1:24:42.439 --> 1:24:44.800 So it was funny. I can tell you this was 1:24:44.880 --> 1:24:47.760 this was funny one time somebody frown. We had one 1:24:47.800 --> 1:24:51.320 of the anthropologists fround a bodyth arm count and teaching 1:24:51.400 --> 1:24:54.240 our class and she had to transport some skulls in 1:24:54.760 --> 1:24:56.759 and she didn't want to leave them an air hotel overnight, 1:24:56.960 --> 1:24:59.519 so we had a because we had an alarm, So 1:25:00.120 --> 1:25:01.760 she said, can I store them at your house? I said, well, 1:25:01.840 --> 1:25:03.920 let me ask my husband. So I was like, how 1:25:04.000 --> 1:25:06.760 do you feel about having some human skulls in the den? 1:25:07.320 --> 1:25:10.760 And he was like, let me think about it. And 1:25:10.800 --> 1:25:12.080 then I was like that okay, and I said it 1:25:12.160 --> 1:25:13.840 won freeky out and he goes as long as you 1:25:13.920 --> 1:25:16.640 jump though, like you know, and like scare me with 1:25:16.720 --> 1:25:19.519 a skull. And after he said it and it's just 1:25:19.720 --> 1:25:25.160 really like my opening, he said, it's just that's just 1:25:25.280 --> 1:25:27.439 what you end up as you know. It wasn't spooky, 1:25:27.479 --> 1:25:30.960 it wasn't scary, it wasn't gross. It was just you're 1:25:31.160 --> 1:25:34.760 just you're just skulls in a box, you know. That's 1:25:34.800 --> 1:25:38.240 what we all end up, as you know. So yeah, 1:25:38.360 --> 1:25:40.120 he's he's had skulls in. 1:25:40.160 --> 1:25:43.040 His dead so it's like he's he probably has a 1:25:43.120 --> 1:25:47.160 bunch of like one liners of what husband hears this 1:25:47.360 --> 1:25:51.360 question from their wife? Can just store these ten skulls 1:25:51.400 --> 1:25:53.720 in our house overnight? Just cauld we put the alarm on. 1:25:54.080 --> 1:25:57.400 You don't care that there's like ten dead people downstairs 1:25:57.439 --> 1:26:01.200 while we're sleeping, right, Yeah, you can't be like that 1:26:01.360 --> 1:26:04.559 in this field, thinking there's ghosts and stuff. Yeah, exactly, 1:26:04.720 --> 1:26:08.280 Like what if you had like a reason, like I 1:26:08.320 --> 1:26:09.960 don't know, if fire or something in the middle of 1:26:09.960 --> 1:26:12.120 the night and they show up, they'd be like, what's 1:26:12.200 --> 1:26:12.840 happening here? 1:26:13.240 --> 1:26:15.719 Said? I promised they were aside from. 1:26:17.320 --> 1:26:20.200 I know, right, Yeah, so we know that you're not 1:26:20.320 --> 1:26:24.240 doing the forensic art anymore. But I mean you're an artist, 1:26:24.320 --> 1:26:27.000 So what are you doing? What are your other interests 1:26:27.080 --> 1:26:30.439 besides being interested in forensics? Like do you garden? 1:26:30.600 --> 1:26:31.240 Do you draw? 1:26:31.400 --> 1:26:32.719 Do you still do art and stuff? 1:26:33.640 --> 1:26:37.480 I am doing anything that's not a skull so right now, evantually, 1:26:39.080 --> 1:26:41.040 So don't tell my husband. No, I'm working on a 1:26:41.080 --> 1:26:43.200 painting right now, which is just new territory for me. 1:26:43.320 --> 1:26:46.639 I've tried to I just jumped into a big project 1:26:46.840 --> 1:26:48.400 and I'm not going to say exactly what it is 1:26:48.439 --> 1:26:51.240 because my husband's going to hear this and like, I 1:26:51.320 --> 1:26:53.519 want to be able to finish it. But I'm actually 1:26:53.600 --> 1:26:59.080 working on like a big thing, So I've anything that's 1:26:59.240 --> 1:27:01.680 I don't see. I don't like creepy stuff. I mean, 1:27:01.720 --> 1:27:05.599 I like some things in my cop you know there 1:27:05.760 --> 1:27:08.840 there's there's a there's a level of creepiness that I 1:27:08.960 --> 1:27:13.120 really like, but it depends. It's like I have to 1:27:13.160 --> 1:27:16.600 see it. So I like, I like humor and just 1:27:16.720 --> 1:27:20.880 like a little bit of creepiness. So that's hard to explain, 1:27:21.360 --> 1:27:24.160 but I like humor and art and I like something 1:27:24.920 --> 1:27:27.439 things that are surprising. So like you might look at 1:27:27.640 --> 1:27:29.519 look at a painting and go, oh, that's a really 1:27:29.600 --> 1:27:31.800 nice painting and you look really close and there's like 1:27:32.280 --> 1:27:35.800 a cows lying in the background, like obscurely. Just things 1:27:35.840 --> 1:27:40.000 that are silly or maybe a bit surreal that surrealism. 1:27:40.360 --> 1:27:43.880 I don't know. I'm just I'm trying to figure out 1:27:43.920 --> 1:27:46.680 when I'm I'm trying to I'm figuring it out. It's 1:27:46.800 --> 1:27:49.400 this is a time where I get to I get 1:27:49.479 --> 1:27:51.519 frustrated because I'm like, I can't do this, I can't 1:27:51.560 --> 1:27:54.400 do that. My husband's like, this is the time where 1:27:54.400 --> 1:27:56.720 you get to play and do whatever. You want so 1:27:57.120 --> 1:27:59.840 just play and have fun. And so I'm like, okay, 1:28:01.680 --> 1:28:03.840 So after being so work boring and for so long 1:28:03.920 --> 1:28:05.680 where you have a deadline, it has to be done 1:28:05.680 --> 1:28:08.160 and it has to be right. It's like, this is artwork. 1:28:08.200 --> 1:28:11.040 You're allowed to god to big mistakes. You're allowed to 1:28:11.360 --> 1:28:14.680 a couple up faper through away. So that's what I'm 1:28:14.760 --> 1:28:15.200 learning now. 1:28:17.160 --> 1:28:20.000 Yeah, that it does seem like a weird transition to 1:28:20.160 --> 1:28:22.360 just turn it from what you were doing. 1:28:23.200 --> 1:28:23.400 It is. 1:28:23.479 --> 1:28:25.599 Well, thanks so much for being here with us today. 1:28:26.080 --> 1:28:28.960 Everyone needs to get your book. It's called Clay and 1:28:29.040 --> 1:28:32.360 Bones and it's available now. Do you have while you 1:28:32.520 --> 1:28:35.800 are going to reactivate your website? I hope, because I 1:28:35.880 --> 1:28:37.960 bet you a lot of people listening to this today 1:28:38.880 --> 1:28:39.519 are interested. 1:28:40.479 --> 1:28:44.320 You know I do. I do have a website. It's 1:28:44.560 --> 1:28:47.960 for the author website. I actually did rehost Things of Friends. 1:28:48.000 --> 1:28:50.479 It's a forensic one on one about how to how 1:28:50.560 --> 1:28:52.519 to become a friends of artist. So I actually did 1:28:52.600 --> 1:28:56.519 put that on my current site, my author's site. So 1:28:57.000 --> 1:28:58.640 I will put some things back up. That is the 1:28:58.680 --> 1:29:00.400 one thing I did put out because some wretch to 1:29:00.400 --> 1:29:02.000 me on Instagram says they want to be a friends 1:29:02.040 --> 1:29:05.760 of artists, and you know, she said, oh that in 1:29:05.880 --> 1:29:07.519 high school, I asked some friends of artists and they 1:29:07.520 --> 1:29:09.240 wouldn't give me the time of the day. I was like, well, 1:29:09.360 --> 1:29:13.160 I'm gonna put that on my website, so I did so. Yeah. 1:29:13.920 --> 1:29:16.360 Yeah, that that kind of stuff makes me mad when 1:29:16.400 --> 1:29:19.200 people aren't willing to help the next generation of people. 1:29:19.520 --> 1:29:23.320 My girlfriend here, do they have car? Oh well no, 1:29:23.439 --> 1:29:25.680 my girlfriend here she puts it. She's like, you know, 1:29:25.840 --> 1:29:28.040 women need to support women. And she's like, send the 1:29:28.120 --> 1:29:30.519 elevator back down when you make it to the top, 1:29:31.120 --> 1:29:33.200 hit the bottom of like help somebody else on their 1:29:33.240 --> 1:29:36.560 way up, you know. And it's like, yeah, like I 1:29:37.600 --> 1:29:38.839 don't understand exactly. 1:29:39.040 --> 1:29:44.920 I don't. Yeah, I don't either. That's it's it's really 1:29:45.000 --> 1:29:47.519 upsetting when I hear stuff like that. Do you think 1:29:47.840 --> 1:29:50.280 that there's college I mean, I don't even know anything 1:29:50.320 --> 1:29:53.040 about this, but I feel like there must be some 1:29:53.200 --> 1:29:56.240 kind of college programs at this point that are geared 1:29:56.280 --> 1:29:57.600 towards people that want to do. 1:29:57.680 --> 1:29:59.880 Stuff like for forensic ard. There really isn't. And let 1:30:00.120 --> 1:30:02.439 you create your own creat slam And I only know 1:30:02.520 --> 1:30:04.240 of one artist as far as you did that, and 1:30:04.360 --> 1:30:08.360 she her name is escaping me because she's wonderful. But 1:30:08.640 --> 1:30:11.360 she went to the University of Tennessee and so she 1:30:11.600 --> 1:30:14.439 created because it's the body of our she was able 1:30:14.520 --> 1:30:19.360 to create a forensic art program. And there's actually Friends 1:30:19.400 --> 1:30:22.799 of Art master's program, and I think Dundee Scotland or something, 1:30:23.640 --> 1:30:27.040 which I'm sure was a wonderful program, But there's because 1:30:27.080 --> 1:30:31.320 of the nature of friends of art, there's no it's 1:30:31.360 --> 1:30:34.880 not like being a doctor or something where you need 1:30:34.960 --> 1:30:37.160 to have certain credentials and a piece of paper that 1:30:37.880 --> 1:30:40.040 you are now you know you are now in friends 1:30:40.080 --> 1:30:43.080 of artists, that doesn't that doesn't exist in friends of art. 1:30:44.040 --> 1:30:47.679 It's just one of those jobs that for in most 1:30:47.960 --> 1:30:50.479 for most friends of artists, most friends of artists work 1:30:50.479 --> 1:30:54.840 in law enforcement agencies like state sheriff's office, you know, 1:30:55.000 --> 1:30:57.800 count of city police, things like that, and they're mostly 1:30:57.880 --> 1:31:02.400 doing composites and it's an adjunct it's a collateral duty. 1:31:02.920 --> 1:31:06.639 So it would be friends of artist's shonage. It would 1:31:06.680 --> 1:31:13.080 be just too narrow a pool to have a college program, 1:31:13.360 --> 1:31:15.559 I believe, And there's just not the jobs. 1:31:16.240 --> 1:31:19.479 And that's something that's something important to say too, because 1:31:19.479 --> 1:31:21.479 you were saying you only worked with a few people 1:31:21.640 --> 1:31:22.559 right that did your job. 1:31:22.720 --> 1:31:25.960 Yeah, I mean the full time positions. And I believe 1:31:26.040 --> 1:31:29.040 this is on this is in my post on my website, 1:31:29.560 --> 1:31:32.360 is that the full time friends of artists there are 1:31:32.479 --> 1:31:35.559 various few, maybe under fifty. Nobody really knows. Not many. 1:31:36.640 --> 1:31:40.559 We work at the state, et cetera level. So those 1:31:40.600 --> 1:31:42.719 are like where the full time friends of art positions 1:31:42.760 --> 1:31:46.080 are the other friends of art positions, Like you said, 1:31:46.120 --> 1:31:50.160 they're collateral duties. They're done by people in law enforcement, detectives, 1:31:50.240 --> 1:31:53.680 crime scene texts, whatever. A person in law enforcement who 1:31:53.720 --> 1:31:56.840 had artistic talent and their boss said, hey, you can draw, 1:31:57.760 --> 1:31:59.720 You're going to be our friends of artists down or 1:32:00.000 --> 1:32:02.280 they had the gumption to say, and I want to 1:32:02.320 --> 1:32:06.719 do composite sketches, and they create the job. It's there's 1:32:06.760 --> 1:32:08.880 no money in law enforcement. There's no money to hire 1:32:08.960 --> 1:32:11.400 friends of artists. So it's one of these collateral duties 1:32:11.439 --> 1:32:14.400 where somebody who is very motivated, and this is usually 1:32:14.400 --> 1:32:16.920 where it happens. You have a motivated person in law 1:32:16.960 --> 1:32:19.000 enforcement who can drow that says this is what I 1:32:19.080 --> 1:32:21.760 want to do, and they volunteer their services as need 1:32:21.840 --> 1:32:26.280 that they're not get extra. They do it because they have. 1:32:26.520 --> 1:32:32.000 It's really important to note because it's like, because I 1:32:32.360 --> 1:32:35.680 feel like I'm an artist too, and it's a scientist too. 1:32:36.200 --> 1:32:38.920 I feel like I would be actually interested in that 1:32:39.240 --> 1:32:42.519 to that kind of job and just but people need 1:32:42.600 --> 1:32:46.680 to understand that you really have to kind of make 1:32:46.760 --> 1:32:49.200 it happen for yourself in a way. It's not as 1:32:49.320 --> 1:32:51.519 easy as just going to school to be a nurse, 1:32:51.760 --> 1:32:54.840 go to school, get a job, get high exactly, although 1:32:54.920 --> 1:32:56.880 they have to be good too, it's just in a 1:32:56.960 --> 1:32:59.720 different it's in a different kind of way. And it's 1:33:00.320 --> 1:33:03.320 it's the same could be said like every every painter 1:33:03.680 --> 1:33:08.160 isn't going to be Pocrasso, right, Like, yeah, it's just 1:33:08.400 --> 1:33:09.360 it's just the way it is. 1:33:09.520 --> 1:33:11.599 Yeah, I mean, it just it just pains me when 1:33:11.640 --> 1:33:12.720 you know, I hear people they want to be a 1:33:12.800 --> 1:33:15.120 friends of artists and you know they're they're taking classes, 1:33:15.200 --> 1:33:17.760 like you know, there's lots of commercial classes out there. 1:33:17.840 --> 1:33:20.080 It's like, well, that's great if you want to you know, 1:33:20.120 --> 1:33:21.760 if you want to learn about it and everything. But 1:33:23.320 --> 1:33:26.639 it's just there's no jobs. There's very very few jobs, 1:33:27.000 --> 1:33:30.280 and the vast majority of them are in law enforcement. 1:33:30.400 --> 1:33:34.000 I've got grief for this, but it's the truth because 1:33:34.880 --> 1:33:37.519 skulls are evidence of composite drawing is evidence. You're dealing 1:33:37.560 --> 1:33:42.920 with evidence. So it's only that that's out. It is 1:33:43.000 --> 1:33:47.160 what it is, you know. It's sorry. Yeah. So, but 1:33:47.920 --> 1:33:50.600 someone that's motivated, some with artistic skill, they can be 1:33:50.800 --> 1:33:54.360 in in academia. Is anything that might cross pass this 1:33:54.479 --> 1:33:57.400 law enforcement, you would have the potential to be able 1:33:57.439 --> 1:34:00.320 to do like a facial approximation. It's if you work 1:34:00.360 --> 1:34:03.639 at a university and you're in anatomy or anthropology. Guess 1:34:03.680 --> 1:34:06.400 what if you put forth the athlete, you could probably 1:34:06.439 --> 1:34:13.760 do some facial approximations for the medical examiner. It's completely possible. Absolutely. Yeah, 1:34:13.840 --> 1:34:14.679 that's great advice. 1:34:15.200 --> 1:34:17.600 Thank you so much. Again, it was awesome talking to you. 1:34:18.240 --> 1:34:20.080 This is a thrill. This is great. 1:34:25.880 --> 1:34:29.679 Thank you for listening to mother nos death. As a reminder, 1:34:29.920 --> 1:34:33.640 my training is as a pathologist's assistant. I have a 1:34:33.760 --> 1:34:38.080 master's level education and specialize in anatomy and pathology education. 1:34:39.240 --> 1:34:41.400 I am not a doctor, and I have not diagnosed 1:34:41.479 --> 1:34:45.080 or treated anyone dead or alive without the assistance of 1:34:45.160 --> 1:34:50.320 a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, and social 1:34:50.400 --> 1:34:53.920 media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based 1:34:53.960 --> 1:34:57.840 on my experience working in pathology, so they can make 1:34:58.080 --> 1:35:02.719 healthier decisions regarding their life and well Beeing. Always remember 1:35:02.800 --> 1:35:05.879 that science is changing every day, and the opinions expressed 1:35:05.920 --> 1:35:08.519 in this episode are based on my knowledge of those 1:35:08.600 --> 1:35:12.360 subjects at the time of publication. If you are having 1:35:12.439 --> 1:35:16.360 a medical problem, have a medical question, or having a 1:35:16.439 --> 1:35:20.760 medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit an urgent 1:35:20.840 --> 1:35:25.519 care center, emergency room, or hospital. Please rate, review, and 1:35:25.640 --> 1:35:30.120 subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or 1:35:30.240 --> 1:35:32.559 anywhere you get podcasts. Thanks