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Speaker 1: Mother Knows Death Presents External Exams with Nicole and Jimmy.

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Speaker 2: Hi everyone, welcome to this week's External Exam on Mother

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Speaker 2: nos Death. Since we started our podcast, we've had multiple

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Speaker 2: stories in the news relating to skulls being found. And

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Speaker 2: I'm always curious who works on these cases. How when

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Speaker 2: they're found, where does the skull go? Who determines who

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Speaker 2: this person is that has either been missing or is

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Speaker 2: a victim of a crime. And today we are going

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Speaker 2: to talk to a forensic artist. Her name is Lisa Baily,

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Speaker 2: and she's coming out with a new book actually today

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Speaker 2: called Clay and Bones. So welcome to the show. Lisa,

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much.

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Speaker 1: This is the true because I've been following you the

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Speaker 1: moment I got on Instagram. Yeah, Ie, So.

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Speaker 2: That that's awesome because I've been a huge fan of

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Speaker 2: your work as well. So I'm so glad we finally

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Speaker 2: get to meet in person. It's great. Let So, I

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Speaker 2: like to start off my interviews just trying to get

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Speaker 2: a basis of how people got into their field and

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Speaker 2: what their life has been like, their whole entire life,

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Speaker 2: not just their career. So for me, people always think

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Speaker 2: that I was this. They look at me and they

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Speaker 2: think I have tattoos and I was some goth kid

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Speaker 2: that just was obsessed with death and slept in a

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Speaker 2: coffin or something, and I obviously I wasn't. Do you

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Speaker 2: when people find out that that you work with human

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Speaker 2: skulls for a living, do they ever ask you if

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Speaker 2: you were obsessed with death when you were a kid

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Speaker 2: and grown up?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like, well, oh my god, how did you

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Speaker 1: get that job? And yeah, you know were you were?

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Speaker 1: You wearing black all the time and you know all

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Speaker 1: that dothor. I was the absolute opposite. Yeah, I was

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Speaker 1: always drawing as a kid. I loved artwork, but I

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Speaker 1: was painfully shy, Like just everybody ignore me. I would not.

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Speaker 1: I was painfully shy. So and I didn't like anything

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Speaker 1: blood cuts and gore and anything gross. So it was

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Speaker 1: kind of surprising like some of the things that I've

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Speaker 1: seen in my life then, But yeah, I was complete

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Speaker 1: opposite this. Any anybody that knew me as a kid

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Speaker 1: would be like, what it's like, you up. I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: even dissect I couldn't dissect the throb and science class.

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Speaker 1: I have my partner that.

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Speaker 2: It's really interesting though, because I'm starting to ask this

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Speaker 2: question to funeral directors and other people that kind of

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Speaker 2: work in a similar feel to ours, and everyone says

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Speaker 2: the same thing. They they weren't. They weren't into it.

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Speaker 2: There was no there was no indication that this is

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Speaker 2: what they were going to do when they grew up.

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Speaker 2: So you're saying that you were artistic when you were

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Speaker 2: a kid, were you Were you also interested in science?

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Speaker 1: Now, well, I hated science. I did. I did everything

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Speaker 1: to get No.

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Speaker 2: This is great to hear because kids get frustrated in

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Speaker 2: school because they don't they don't understand science, or they're

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Speaker 2: not good at math. And then you look and see

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Speaker 2: these adults became scientists when they got older, So it's.

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Speaker 1: A good stalory. Yeah. I was absolutely anytime I could

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Speaker 1: make a science project into an art project, I would

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Speaker 1: do that. So I was a kid who was building

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Speaker 1: volcanoes with baking soda instead of writing on a report

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Speaker 1: about volcanoes. So yeah, I was completely not interested in science.

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Speaker 1: But well, one thing, if I can say this, I

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Speaker 1: remember when I was about thirteen fourteen, I used to

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Speaker 1: watch all the police shows with my dad and so on.

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Speaker 1: One of them, maybe it was Quincy, they had somebody

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Speaker 1: doing a facial approximation, and I thought that is so cool.

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Speaker 1: I would love to do that. But this was the

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Speaker 1: seventies and nobody knew how you would go about that,

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Speaker 1: and then or would be really cool to be a

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Speaker 1: composite artists. You know, I watched you know, I'm aging

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Speaker 1: myself the WI five things like that, so so that

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Speaker 1: would be the coolest job on earth. But nobody knew.

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Speaker 1: This was way before computers, and even if I had

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Speaker 1: been computers there at that time, there's very little information

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Speaker 1: about how to become a friends of artists. It's a

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Speaker 1: very odd ball, niche field. So it's really kind of

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Speaker 1: odd that all these years later, it's exactly what I

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Speaker 1: ended up doing. I wasn't aiming for it. It was

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Speaker 1: living my life doing you know, joining the Navy, all

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Speaker 1: those things that I guess we'll talk about. I ended

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Speaker 1: up unwittingly being perfectly prepared to be a friends of

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Speaker 1: artist at the FBI. When when I saw the job posting,

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Speaker 1: it was like they had my resume was crazy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was crazy.

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Speaker 2: That's that's awesome. So let's let's first talk about the military,

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Speaker 2: because I want everyone to get an understanding of how

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Speaker 2: you ended up at the FBI as a forensic artist.

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Speaker 2: So you come from a family that is military, correct,

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Speaker 2: And so when you were growing up, was that just

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Speaker 2: like I'll be joining the military when I get older

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Speaker 2: or when did you decide you were going to join

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Speaker 2: the military.

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Speaker 1: I figured when I was about seventeen, that's probably where

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Speaker 1: it's going to go. There were five kids in our family,

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Speaker 1: and college was just never talked about, like there are

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Speaker 1: It was like that was something the officer's kids went

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Speaker 1: to college. Like, you know, my dad was a master

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Speaker 1: sergeant wonderful gem you know dad. So yeah, I have

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Speaker 1: the best father in the world. I have to have

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Speaker 1: the best father anyway. So college just wasn't an option.

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Speaker 1: So it was like there was nothing in Dove I

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Speaker 1: lived in. You know, that's for the Dover Air Force

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Speaker 1: Space in Delaware. That's if people have heard of that.

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Speaker 1: That's when they bring the remains from my proceeds of soldiers.

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Speaker 1: They had the more there out of Dover Air Force Space,

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Speaker 1: and there was just really there were no other There

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Speaker 1: was really nothing there. So the military was really the

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Speaker 1: best option to get out and get the job, be

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Speaker 1: trained in something, get college benefits, and it was the

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Speaker 1: best thing for me. I mean, I stopped being shy.

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Speaker 1: I learned how to stand up for myself because if

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Speaker 1: you don't, you'll get loaded down. And obviously the militarians male,

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Speaker 1: male dominated, you know, And but it was the best

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Speaker 1: thing for me. So best thing for me.

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Speaker 2: And you're so your dad in Air Force twenty six

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Speaker 2: years and and what made you decide that you were

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Speaker 2: going to go into the me.

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Speaker 1: So my dad was in the Air Force, my mother

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Speaker 1: was in the Women's Army Air Corps in the fifties.

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Speaker 1: My oldest brother and my sister were in the Air Force,

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Speaker 1: and another brother was in the Marines. And I thought, well,

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Speaker 1: I have to do the maybe so I can, you know,

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Speaker 1: round it out, And they honestly and please take my

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Speaker 1: agentto account. I was eighteen. They had the cutest uniforms,

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Speaker 1: So that was serious. Serious, that's what eighteen year olds

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Speaker 1: think about. It's like, oh my god, it's uniforms. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: it just appealed to me. It just appealed to me. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So when I don't I'm not one hundred percent familiar.

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Speaker 2: I know, I sound like an idiot to people that

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Speaker 2: are in military families. I just don't. I'm not familiar

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Speaker 2: with how it works really. So you join the Navy

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Speaker 2: and while you're there, what what are you doing as

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Speaker 2: a job?

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Speaker 1: Do you do?

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Speaker 2: They try to find something that you're good at, or

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Speaker 2: they just give you any kind of task and you.

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Speaker 1: Have you, uh, you figure out what you want to

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Speaker 1: be before you join. So you take a test which

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Speaker 1: is a general Placement test kind of you know, sort

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Speaker 1: of an IQ. But so you get a general placement

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Speaker 1: test and then they take out this you know, big book.

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Speaker 1: They're they're the recruiters trying to get you to join

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Speaker 1: something that they need. Like they tried to talk me

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Speaker 1: into becoming going to nukes, and I was like, I don't.

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Speaker 1: I don't do nath, I can't into news. And I

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Speaker 1: guess I scored well enough for the intelligence field. And

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Speaker 1: so one of the recruiters said, wow, I ought to

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Speaker 1: be a linguist and I'd never taken a language before.

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Speaker 1: So eighteen years old, I joined as a Russian linguist

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Speaker 1: and they But so the thing is any military kid

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Speaker 1: noses you do not join the military unless you have

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Speaker 1: a guaranteed school, because otherwise you were at their mercy

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Speaker 1: and they can do whatever they want with you. So

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Speaker 1: when you join, you join you go through your boot

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Speaker 1: camp and then you go to your school. And I

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Speaker 1: was immersed in Russian for eight hours a day, forty

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Speaker 1: five days a week, forty seven weeks. And that was

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Speaker 1: just the one part of school. And there was another

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Speaker 1: section after four more months. But if I had, if

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Speaker 1: I had flunked out of that, then they could have that.

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Speaker 1: I'd be chipping paint. I'd be peeling potatoes. They can

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Speaker 1: do they can do anything they want with you, well,

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Speaker 1: whatever they need. It's true. I mean, it's it's true.

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Speaker 1: And so I joined as a Russian linguist and had

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Speaker 1: no idea, but and I was, you know, they would say,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, you're can have to study four or

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Speaker 1: five hours a night. There's a fifty percent nutrition rate,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know. I took to it like a

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Speaker 1: duck to water. It was no problem. It's I think

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Speaker 1: it's an artist and a visual To me, Russian was

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Speaker 1: a very organized language and it made sense to me.

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Speaker 1: And I could just see the words, so I couldn't

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Speaker 1: think of a word. I would remember seeing it in

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Speaker 1: my textbook and then I would go, oh, okay, I

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Speaker 1: could read it in my mind and answer, so that's it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, My girlfriend, And how long did you do that?

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Speaker 2: How long did you do that?

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Speaker 1: Seven weeks. That was in Monterey, California, a beautiful place

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Speaker 1: to be stationed, by the way, it's gorgeous.

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Speaker 2: So you're in the Navy doing this as a career

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Speaker 2: for her.

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Speaker 1: I ended up doing six years. The typical endlessman is

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Speaker 1: four years, but because my school was basically a year

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Speaker 1: and a half, they wanted you to have It wasn't mandatory,

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Speaker 1: but they all for a bonus if you extended for

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Speaker 1: two years. So that's what I did. So I was

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Speaker 1: in for six years total. That was the perfect time,

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Speaker 1: a correct amount of time because I was ready to

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Speaker 1: get out.

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Speaker 2: And from there, you started working at Johns Hopkins, right,

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Speaker 2: And what did you do there?

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Speaker 1: I did administrative work. I was a contractor there at

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Speaker 1: the Applied Physics Laboratory. Because the one great thing is

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Speaker 1: I had a very high clearance, so I was very

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Speaker 1: marketable in the DC area. Data processing. Hated it to

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Speaker 1: the depth of my soul. I am, I hate it,

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Speaker 1: hate it. But they had a really good education program,

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Speaker 1: so that's when they started. I had gotten some college

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Speaker 1: credits while I was in the Navy, and then I

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Speaker 1: just started going to college part time while work in

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Speaker 1: full time. And I did that for a total of

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Speaker 1: seven years. It took forever. And then a positioned open

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Speaker 1: Nuxbroo graphic artist at Hopkins, and I lied and I

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Speaker 1: got it and it was just a trans So when

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Speaker 1: I was, you know, doing the data processing, yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: so I heard about an opening and that's how I

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Speaker 1: that's how I transition. It's like all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: I was, I was a graphic artist and I loved it.

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Speaker 1: I loved it.

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Speaker 2: So you're working as a graphic artist and you what

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Speaker 2: kind of graphic art were you doing for the for

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Speaker 2: the hospital or the.

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Speaker 1: School since this is for the Applying Physics laboratory, which

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Speaker 1: is ironic because I hated physics in high school. But

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Speaker 1: you know, they were they called them Beltway bandits. But

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Speaker 1: all the contractors that worked for the military, for Washington

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Speaker 1: d C. I mean, they're they're based Hopkins is based

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Speaker 1: in Maryland, but you would have, like I worked in

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Speaker 1: the Submarine Technology department, so some of them would be

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Speaker 1: you know, scenarios of you know, here are you know,

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Speaker 1: planes flying and they're shooting was radar and so or whatever.

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Speaker 1: It's very technical and all I had to do is illustrated.

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Speaker 1: So we're using these three D software and Soto Shop

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Speaker 1: to basically do like the artist depiction of technology that

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Speaker 1: they wanted to get funding for. That was part of it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that was part of it. It might be

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Speaker 1: doing doing an illustration of something that somebody was inventing

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Speaker 1: and the and it wasn't even actually all military because

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Speaker 1: in the sudden wing technology, they were using that technology

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Speaker 1: for for medical for like, uh, heart problems. I won't

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Speaker 1: be able to speak intelligently about it because I'm.

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Speaker 2: No, but the brother laws. It's cool though, because I

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Speaker 2: a lot of people don't think about all those different

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Speaker 2: things that go into college programs and things that there's

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Speaker 2: artists that are helping out with that, and that's really cool.

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Speaker 2: So how did you hear about this job that came

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Speaker 2: up at the FBI? And what was it?

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Speaker 1: As an illustrator? So it was they had what they

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Speaker 1: called GS levels in the federal government. So this was

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Speaker 1: a GS ten, which is a good but you know,

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Speaker 1: a good kind of rank, and it was an illustrator.

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Speaker 1: I was, actually I was. I loved my job at Hopkins.

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Speaker 1: I loved everybody I worked with, but I just happened

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Speaker 1: to be at the dunkin Donuts looking through a Washington

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Speaker 1: Post that somebody had left on the table, and I

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Speaker 1: looked flipped up in the classifieds and I saw an

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Speaker 1: FBI seal and I was like, what's that? And then

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Speaker 1: I read it and I was just like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, oh my god. And this sounds so cool.

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Speaker 1: And there was nothing in that because it was a

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Speaker 1: junior position, nothing about skulls or anything then. But it

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Speaker 1: was doing demonstrative evidence for courtroom trials, you know, things

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Speaker 1: like that and composite sketches that you could work your

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Speaker 1: way into if you got promoted. So I didn't think

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Speaker 1: I would get it. I thought there's going to be

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Speaker 1: hundreds of people applying for this. I don't have a chance.

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Speaker 1: But maybe I'll get to see the inside of the

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Speaker 1: FBI because they'll have to interview me. Because literally they

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Speaker 1: wanted and this actually I want to remember this for

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Speaker 1: for later in the conversation, but they wanted be able

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Speaker 1: to like draw with kencil, no computers, no three D software,

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Speaker 1: no design software, and my degree was in design, so

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Speaker 1: they wanted they wanted everything. And at Hopkins, I did

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Speaker 1: all that. I did design I did three d illustrations

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Speaker 1: and stuff. So I applied and this was before this

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Speaker 1: was nineteen ninety seven, so it was I nailed in

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Speaker 1: my resume, you know paper I sent up FedEx because

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Speaker 1: that was terrified it would get lost. And I heard

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Speaker 1: nothing for like six months or something, and I thought,

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Speaker 1: well they I thought they felt like everybody asked, you know,

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Speaker 1: my sister would ask me was like, I guess somebody

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Speaker 1: else got it. And then one day I was working

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Speaker 1: on a rest job and I got a phone call

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Speaker 1: and somebody said I'm from the FBI, and my heart

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Speaker 1: stopped and he said, we've got trapplication. We'd like to

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Speaker 1: interview you. So, oh my god, I loved I slipped.

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Speaker 1: So we said it's down to you and three other people,

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Speaker 1: and I had a phone interview. A couple of days later.

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Speaker 1: I thought that was the preliminary interview. It wasn't. It

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Speaker 1: was the interview. So a couple of days after the

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Speaker 1: phone interview, he called me back at work and he

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Speaker 1: said the job is yours if you wanted, and lost

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Speaker 1: my mind. I nearly lost my mind. Yeah, that was so.

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Speaker 2: How So, from the time you sent in your resume

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Speaker 2: until the time you got the job. How long was

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Speaker 2: it was.

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Speaker 1: An unusual situation. It was three years, and so it

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Speaker 1: was during Okay, I applied to ninety seven, so they

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Speaker 1: were trying to get me in before a rumored hiring freeze.

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Speaker 1: And you know, September the end of the fiscal year,

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Speaker 1: so September thirtyth yes, hiring freeze. Congress couldn't decide on

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Speaker 1: the budget, so all hiring has stopped. So then for

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Speaker 1: two years sitting around going you know, somebody like approve

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Speaker 1: of the budget. And this was during the Bush and

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Speaker 1: War presidential thing, and nothing could get figured out. So

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Speaker 1: it was finally in. It was September two thousand and one.

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Speaker 1: I remember the day. It was a Friday, and the

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Speaker 1: agent came into the office and said, everything's done. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to the FBI. But I didn't get to. I didn't

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Speaker 1: start till two months later.

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Speaker 2: So you get So you get hired in September of

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Speaker 2: two thousand and one, and then what happens four days

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Speaker 2: after you get hired.

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Speaker 1: I still wasn't in yet. Like I was hired. They

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Speaker 1: I had the offer letter, I had everything, but there

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Speaker 1: was still you know, the wheels of the government most slowly,

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Speaker 1: so of course when nine to eleven happened, I thought

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Speaker 1: I was desperate to get in there because the artists

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Speaker 1: there were working twelve hour shifts, were just working around

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Speaker 1: the clock, and it still took some time. So I

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Speaker 1: wasn't able to actually physically walk in the door until November,

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Speaker 1: until two months later. But still they were back to

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Speaker 1: a normal schedule, and I was still working on everything

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Speaker 1: for you know a lot of things for nine to eleven.

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Speaker 2: So there is this act, So what kind of things,

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Speaker 2: like what kind of things would a person in your

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Speaker 2: position do as it relates to nine to eleven?

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Speaker 1: Okay, what did we do? Oh? So we had to

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Speaker 1: We scanned, you know, all of the Dictum's photos. You

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Speaker 1: would think that they were the most beautiful digital copy somewhere,

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Speaker 1: but again it's two thousand and one. Not everybody had

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Speaker 1: all that stuff. So we were scanning, scanning, cleaning up

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Speaker 1: photos of all the victims. We were making presentations for

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Speaker 1: Director Molar and for the White House of We were

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Speaker 1: doing interactive presentations, like one of the ones I was

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Speaker 1: there was a lead artist because I was brand new,

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Speaker 1: but some of the senior artists would be doing you know,

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Speaker 1: layout diagrams of the planes and where every person was

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Speaker 1: sitting and there would be a link to the voice calls,

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Speaker 1: like some of the phone calls from people. It was

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Speaker 1: it was trust me, it was something to walk into.

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Speaker 1: And actually one of when on a co worker, but

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Speaker 1: a scientist that had worked at Hopkins was actually killed

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Speaker 1: during during that. I found that out the day later,

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Speaker 1: the day after, so when I went, when I was

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Speaker 1: at the bureau, it was just very surreal. It's like

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Speaker 1: un scanning pictures and then there's a picture of the

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Speaker 1: person that I knew, Like I know, many people after

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Speaker 1: nine eleven is like they wanted to do something like

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Speaker 1: what can I do? And at least I felt like, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm here, I'm doing something, you know, helping with the

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Speaker 1: presentations for it because they were gonna, you know, the

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Speaker 1: prosecuting Zacharias Masali. So I worked on some of those

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Speaker 1: presentations of courtroom things. Uh. So it was it was

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Speaker 1: anything related to eleven that took up the bulk of

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Speaker 1: my time the first year.

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Speaker 2: What are some things when you started working there that

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Speaker 2: a regular person would kind of be surprised by because

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Speaker 2: obviously you walked in there and you didn't really know much.

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Speaker 2: You just supplied for some job in the newspaper and

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Speaker 2: you're like, cool, I'll be doing some kind of art

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Speaker 2: for the FBI. And you walk in after one of

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Speaker 2: the biggest investigations in United States history, like what what happened?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 2: What are some things that kind of blew your mind

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Speaker 2: that you didn't really realize happened Behind the scenes?

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Speaker 1: It was on some well, my my supervisor was walking

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Speaker 1: me through the office and he had a he said,

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Speaker 1: this is where we keep all the skulls. And I

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Speaker 1: was like, you have skulls in there. That was because

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Speaker 1: that was not in the job description, which was fine,

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Speaker 1: but that kind of blew me away. Just seeing the

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Speaker 1: real work. You've seen things on TV, you know, you're

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Speaker 1: you're you're watching police shows and everything, and then going

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Speaker 1: inside the FBI and going, oh my god, this is

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Speaker 1: really where it really hap happens. And seeing people working in,

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Speaker 1: you know, scraping clothing for for hairs and fibers and

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Speaker 1: and things like that. It was It was surreal, It

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Speaker 1: is all I can say. It was surreal to be

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Speaker 1: there because everybody's normal people. They're just walking around like,

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Speaker 1: you know, this is their job. But to be on

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Speaker 1: the in, to be on the inside, it was it was, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was surreal, Like I was. I kept pinching myself.

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Speaker 1: I was like, I can't believe them here. It was. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was thrilled. It was absolutely thrilled.

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Speaker 2: Do they have like one central office or are there

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Speaker 2: other branches throughout the country that do this work as

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Speaker 2: well or is it one place?

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Speaker 1: Okay, So the way the FBI is organized, there's the

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Speaker 1: FBI headquarters in Washington, DC, and then they have field offices.

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Speaker 1: So every state has a every state, most every state

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Speaker 1: has a field in field office. So you could say

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Speaker 1: that the most of the case work is done by

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Speaker 1: the agents and the field offices. So even though the

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Speaker 1: Washington even though the FBI headquarters is in Washington, d C,

387
00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:11,959
Speaker 1: there's also WFO, the Washington Field Office. So and then

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Speaker 1: they have legal attaches all over the world. So the

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Speaker 1: but the forensic art we were actually our division was

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Speaker 1: the FBI Laboratory. So you can imagine the organizational tree

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Speaker 1: of the FBI goes on forever. So so I was

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Speaker 1: part of the SBI Laboratory division and we eventually moved

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Speaker 1: down to Quantica. Yeah yeah, oh okay, cool.

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Speaker 2: So when you when you started, you they knew that

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Speaker 2: you had some kind of a background in art, but

396
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Speaker 2: you weren't specifically trained to do what you ended up doing.

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Speaker 2: So when you started working there, did they require you

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Speaker 2: to go to art school or did someone teach you

399
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Speaker 2: like on the job training or was it a combination.

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Speaker 1: It was a little combination. I mean they you know,

401
00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,280
Speaker 1: I said, non of a portfolio, so they saw my

402
00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:04,880
Speaker 1: drawing ability, the and all that. It was basically learning

403
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Speaker 1: how to apply those skills to forensics. So I had

404
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Speaker 1: done plenty of floor plans and diagrams and things at Hopkins,

405
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,520
Speaker 1: but this you had to think of it as it

406
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Speaker 1: going to a courtroom, and so how to make sure

407
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Speaker 1: that this information is presented in a way that the

408
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:24,399
Speaker 1: jury can understand so it's clear and unbiased. So I

409
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Speaker 1: would shadow sometimes, like shadow and other artists, just so

410
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Speaker 1: that they would be working on a case and I

411
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Speaker 1: would see, you know, see what they were doing. That

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Speaker 1: Also they had the big thing was the FBI Forensic

413
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Speaker 1: Facial Imaging class, and that was three weeks long, and

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Speaker 1: that was training in composite drawings and age progressions and

415
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Speaker 1: facial approximation. So that was my first time. That's when

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Speaker 1: I fell in love with skulls. And facial approximations. During

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Speaker 1: that class, I thought, this is this is the best

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Speaker 1: thing ever. And because I was, because I'm still a

419
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Speaker 1: new hire, you know, I wasn't able to do facian

420
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Speaker 1: props right away and then you have to kind of,

421
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Speaker 1: you know, work up to that. But that's when I

422
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,720
Speaker 1: fell in love with it. And from then on I

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Speaker 1: was just I learned. I did everything I could learn anything,

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Speaker 1: everything about facial approximation because I want because I wanted

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Speaker 1: to do it later when I want to go.

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Speaker 2: Isn't it kind of cool when you look back at

427
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Speaker 2: your childhood and you said that you did see an

428
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 2: episode of Quincy and you saw them doing that that

429
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Speaker 2: if the Internet maybe existed, because because think about this,

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Speaker 2: if you were if you were a fourteen year old

431
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,440
Speaker 2: kid and you saw a TV show that did that,

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Speaker 2: all you'd have to do on Google is you know,

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Speaker 2: what job can I get where I do this and

434
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 2: it'll pop up. But when I mean the same thing

435
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 2: happened with me. There was no Internet when I was

436
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:51,119
Speaker 2: trying to figure out what I was doing with my

437
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 2: life either. So it's it's like kind of cool how

438
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 2: people got their story without having that at their fingertips

439
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 2: and got to where they were. Did you when you

440
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,160
Speaker 2: started working at the FBI over twenty years ago, did

441
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 2: you were you one of the only women working there

442
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,159
Speaker 2: or what or do you think that there was a

443
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,400
Speaker 2: lot of women working there at the time or has

444
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 2: that changed over the course.

445
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:17,920
Speaker 1: As far as well, there's as far as the FBI overall,

446
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,680
Speaker 1: it depends between agents and support personnel. So I was

447
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:26,360
Speaker 1: a support personnel. So in our the graphic unit where

448
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 1: I worked, and that it's not the official name. I

449
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 1: don't I'm not getting official names, so that that FBI unit,

450
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,400
Speaker 1: it's just anybody's worried about it. So in the graphic unit,

451
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,399
Speaker 1: they're about have you know, fifty fifty men and women,

452
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 1: and our official title was Visual Information Specialists. But not

453
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 1: everybody in there. Would you composits or age progressions or

454
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,640
Speaker 1: facial approximations. Some did more crime scene like going out

455
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 1: diagramming crime scene is doing video, you know, more of

456
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 1: the more of the technical aspect than others. So every

457
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 1: every artist in there have kind of there's actually we

458
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:04,159
Speaker 1: had to be able to do everything at least at

459
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 1: a base level, but then people kind of fall into

460
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:12,480
Speaker 1: what they're best at. And thankfully the supervisors. Then they

461
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 1: saw that and they're like, Okay, well Lisa love Skalts

462
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,959
Speaker 1: and she's putting in the work. So that's the direction

463
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 1: I went. Others just had very amazingly technical minds and

464
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:28,119
Speaker 1: were able, like especially on for the Masai trial, some

465
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: of the presentations they did were just remarkable, remarkable things

466
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 1: that maybe with the software now might be a town easier,

467
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:39,880
Speaker 1: but in two thousand and one, it's incredible that they did.

468
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,679
Speaker 2: I think it's cool that you're talking about trials that

469
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 2: we're all familiar with hearing in the news and everything.

470
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:53,920
Speaker 2: Working in the hospital, we have to comply with HIPPO regulations,

471
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 2: which is to protect patient privacy. Is there something similar

472
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 2: in the FBI where you're kind of you're allowed to

473
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 2: talk about stuff, but you really can't talk about too

474
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,119
Speaker 2: much so you can't figure out exactly who you're talking about.

475
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 1: Yes, I mean we all have. We have the highest

476
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 1: of the clearance, so top secret. I had what's called

477
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: top secret with the sci special compartmented, so it was

478
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 1: kind of up there. But because I had been in

479
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 1: the military, it was The FBI is not like the military,

480
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 1: but it was the same thing. It's like you're working

481
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 1: in law enforcement, you have a clearance, you keep your

482
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 1: mouth shut. That was just security was drooling a dirt.

483
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,399
Speaker 1: Hence all the time, it's like, keep your mouth shut.

484
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 1: So you don't go out and talk about work out

485
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,439
Speaker 1: in the bar or something. You just you just do it.

486
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 1: And you know, they didn't have a rule against identifying

487
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 1: yourself as an FBI employee online, but I never did.

488
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 1: I mean some people would go, I'm an f be

489
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 1: a friends of artists and have it all over their

490
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 1: social media, and I never did that. I'm hardly on

491
00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 1: social media now and I never put that I was

492
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 1: at the FBI. I just you know, like, why bring attention?

493
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 1: You know, I didn't see anything. Yeah, it was goodly

494
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 1: to of this, so yeah I did.

495
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,679
Speaker 2: So you said that you they've picked up that you

496
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 2: specialized in skulls, So just can you I first I

497
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 2: want to know, like what what's your work schedule? Do

498
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,159
Speaker 2: you go to work just nine to five Monday through Friday?

499
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 2: Is it part time? Are you on call? And then

500
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 2: secondly I want to know when you walk into work

501
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 2: every day and this might change from day to day,

502
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,120
Speaker 2: but like what what do you sit down and do?

503
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:36,679
Speaker 2: Do you sit at a desk, you stand in a lab, like,

504
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 2: give us some explanation of what a typical work.

505
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 1: Day would be. So I would say that, well, the

506
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 1: first half of my career it's basically nine to five.

507
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:47,239
Speaker 1: You can you can slide the schedule a little bit,

508
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,160
Speaker 1: like sixty three thirty. You can slide that a bit,

509
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,879
Speaker 1: but it's very disappointing to anybody that sees all the

510
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 1: awesome sets. Like on cssig and Bones, we do not

511
00:27:55,359 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 1: work in cool offices. They're they're Cuba goles, cubicles, fornchs old.

512
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 1: That's that's just what it's like. So when my career

513
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 1: can basically be divided into nine year blocks, you know,

514
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,239
Speaker 1: the two blocks. So the first half, yeah, you just

515
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 1: you walk in, you sign in, you get coffee, you

516
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 1: check your email, and you just That was before I

517
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 1: was working on skulls and the supervisor has a number

518
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 1: of cases assigned to you and you just sort of

519
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 1: juggle them based on court dates. And then the prosecutor

520
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 1: might call up and say, guess what, we're going to

521
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 1: court a month thoroughly, and then you have to swap

522
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,919
Speaker 1: things around, so sometimes you're juggling. We were not on

523
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 1: call on call employees I don't know a lot about this,

524
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 1: but you know there would be a schedule, so you

525
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: knew when you were on call. And I guess there

526
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 1: was some a different pay, pay structure or something. I'm

527
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 1: not too familiar with it, but I know it exists.

528
00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 1: But you were expected if there was, you weren't. You

529
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 1: didn't want to say no. Guy says, you know, we

530
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: really need you to get on a plane tonight and

531
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 1: go somewhere. You're like, okay, I will, So you're not

532
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 1: you're not technically on a call, but yes you. I mean,

533
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 1: it's just like the military. I was used to that.

534
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: I mean, the military only owns you twenty four to seven.

535
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 1: You might work a five day and we can get

536
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 1: a weekend. But if you get a phone call that

537
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 1: you need to go somewhere, then you go somewhere, Like

538
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 1: do you. I don't know if you remember it was

539
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 1: all the shootings on the East coast with not the

540
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 1: member's name, the sniper shootings, if you remove that vaguely.

541
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, funny because I was just talking. I was just

542
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 2: talking about that today. Actually. It's it's so funny how

543
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 2: you don't talk about things for years and then today

544
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 2: I was just talking to my husband this morning about

545
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 2: the DC sniper and stuff, and now you're talking about it,

546
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 2: which is interesting. So what involvement did you have the kis.

547
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 1: The first night I was thalm and said, somebody, somebody

548
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 1: saw something. There's a presentation in the morning, you have

549
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: to go into work, and so it's ten o'clock that

550
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 1: night and not driving tech borders or I remember. It

551
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 1: was like something some information came in. You need to

552
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 1: do a presentation, you need to whatever. So that yeah,

553
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 1: that was. That was for anybody that worked in the

554
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 1: DC area. It was It was scary because at that time,

555
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 1: you know, I took the bus into DC, so you're

556
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 1: standing in a long bus line and all you can

557
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 1: think of is like, I'm a perfect target because this

558
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 1: guy's still on the loots. You know. Turns out it

559
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 1: was too but you were just it was. It was scary.

560
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 1: It was like, oh my god, I joined the FBI

561
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 1: and now now this now now there's you know, snipers

562
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 1: and everything.

563
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 2: So oh, I yeah, my husband what what? What my

564
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 2: husband and I were talking about this morning actually was

565
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 2: what a crazy time period that was, because it was

566
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 2: like nine to eleven happened and then didn't the sniper

567
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 2: thing happen at the same time time as Hurricane Katrina.

568
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 2: I feel like it was like all within a couple

569
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 2: of months, like just craziness and you're just like and

570
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 2: then an antracks, Yeah, oh, an Anthrax, so of course, yeah,

571
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 2: that was just like a crazy things like that.

572
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 1: Like you know, even with those Anthrex letters, you know,

573
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 1: we would might get those in and scam them and

574
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 1: they would be in part of a presentation. We would

575
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 1: give one fun thing I got to do. I shouldn't

576
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 1: call it fun, but it was kind of cool. So

577
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 1: during the trial for the sniper shooting, the model unit

578
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 1: they took you know, they they would hide in the

579
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 1: trunk and they drilled the hole and they were shooting people.

580
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 1: They were inside the trunk and then shooting with the

581
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 1: rifle out. So, uh, the model shop got a car,

582
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 1: cut it in half and they restructured that to use

583
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,719
Speaker 1: in court so they could show exactly, you know, how

584
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: how they would like fimb into the climb into the trunk.

585
00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 1: And there another coworker and I was the lead artist.

586
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 1: We went over to the driving training that they have

587
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 1: for agents where they get to drive fast and chase

588
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 1: bad guys, and so we were having to measure one

589
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,719
Speaker 1: of the identical cars to use that for the present

590
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 1: for the courtroom h courtroom exhibits. So that was you know,

591
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 1: I've got to work on that a little bit. It

592
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: was interesting.

593
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's us. I know, it doesn't it's it

594
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 2: sounds kind of weird to say it's cool, but scientifically

595
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 2: and just to be involved with a case like that,

596
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 2: I think it's okay to say that it's cool. I would.

597
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: I think I'll Actually I've completely forgotten about that. I

598
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 1: just completely dropped. It's like, oh yeah, it's sometimes I

599
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 1: forget some of the things I've done and I'm like,

600
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 1: oh yeah.

601
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and You're like I've done all this cool stuff

602
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 2: and it just it's every day of your life, right,

603
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 2: So what when you say composits, sketch and all these words,

604
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 2: that's like, did you explain what some of those things are?

605
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 2: What you would actually do sitting there as an artist

606
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 2: to come up with that stuff, Like how do you

607
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 2: do a composite sketch? Do you have to interview people

608
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 2: to get that information? So you personally would interview them?

609
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was okay, And fifty years ago it was

610
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 1: it was different. The FBI agents would do the interview.

611
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: That's a whole other story, but yes, we would. We

612
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 1: would go in, we would have a book of facial references,

613
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 1: so we interview the person. But you're just basically trying

614
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 1: to talk to them and get to relax. We're not

615
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 1: in any uniform, so you're just you know, you're just

616
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: doing get a person, which you know, somebody's been through

617
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 1: something horrible. I mean, I didn't use sexual assault cases,

618
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 1: and it was just it was very hard for me

619
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 1: just I didn't want to say anything. I didn't want

620
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 1: to say anything wrong. And this person's just had the

621
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 1: worst moment of their life, you know. So so it's

622
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: not like a police interview.

623
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you don't want them to be visualizing it

624
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 2: right like you feel bad, but they try trying to

625
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 2: help them. You have to look at it that way.

626
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 1: Then exactly exactly, it's like they're trying to forget that face.

627
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 1: On one hand, they want to forget it. On the

628
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,800
Speaker 1: other hand, they want a representation that it's something you go, see,

629
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 1: this is what that I said. They looks like nat

630
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 1: boat get them. I mean that it was I don't

631
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:16,760
Speaker 1: want to get ahead of myself. So yeah, so we would.

632
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 1: We would just free recollection, like tell me what you remember.

633
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,319
Speaker 1: And it wasn't always just facial features. Sometimes it could

634
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 1: be you know, something they smelled or or anything, because

635
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 1: it can all it can all tie together, and then

636
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,799
Speaker 1: we have sacial records. So they let's say they sit

637
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 1: that's I can't speak. Let's say the witness describes he

638
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 1: had a really long face and a big nose and

639
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 1: big bushy eyebrows. By the way, that would be a

640
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 1: wonderful compassage to do, because average looking people are the

641
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 1: worst to try to draw. If somebody says, well, it's

642
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 1: like then you feel like you're ending up drawing Charlie

643
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 1: Brown because everything is just so nothing. So they said

644
00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 1: a really long face. We had a catalog goes there

645
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: were the rest photos that had been organized, so then

646
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 1: there's you know, headshape, and then what was most similar.

647
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 1: And it's a composite because you're piecing it together. Somebody

648
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 1: called it once like mister potato head, which is friends

649
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 1: of artists hate that, but there is a little bit

650
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 1: of truth into it that you're basically piecing things together.

651
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 1: So we develop we developed a general sketch, just keeping

652
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 1: it rest and then show it to and is this

653
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: on the right track? Do you would you recognize this person? Like,

654
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 1: what do we need to do? So then it's then

655
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 1: it's constant erasing and moving and the eyes need to

656
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: be closer together digit and it's uh yeah it ta.

657
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 1: It's like two to three hours too generally. And when

658
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 1: I started, we were doing a pencil and paper. I

659
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,279
Speaker 1: don't know if they still are, but obviously now with

660
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 1: you know, digital pads and everything. Just my opinion, that

661
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:00,919
Speaker 1: is a way to go. There's no reason I don't

662
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: think to be using pencil on paper in a situation

663
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 1: like that, And you could much more easily draw it

664
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 1: on a pad and then instead of having to erase

665
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:12,720
Speaker 1: an eye and move, it happen and you just set

666
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 1: it up with the cursor, the you know, moss a

667
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:18,240
Speaker 1: layer a little bit. That's my opinion unpopular in some corners.

668
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, and plus you could probably, yeah, like easily show

669
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:25,319
Speaker 2: it on a screen better and everything like that. How

670
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 2: often when you do these kind of drawings, do you

671
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 2: you ever get to see the person that gets arrested?

672
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 2: Are you ever, like Dann I did a good job,

673
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 2: like they they look exactly like the telling. Does that

674
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 2: happen often or not really.

675
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 1: It's it's kind of a crapshoot, and in those instances

676
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 1: you really have to say, and this is not this

677
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:51,400
Speaker 1: is not like oh being humble. But the witness is

678
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 1: the most important person. There's like a train of side

679
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 1: in Friends of Guard that you could have a fabulous

680
00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 1: artist and a bad witness, and a great witness and

681
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 1: a bad artist, and a bad artist will produce a

682
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 1: better drawing because if you have a great witness, the

683
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 1: quality of the drawing is is important as the features

684
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 1: that are being described. So sometimes, like you know, an artist,

685
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:16,320
Speaker 1: you could do portrait level work. It's a terrible listener

686
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 1: and it's not paying attention to what the witness wants.

687
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 1: And they make a beautiful drawing, but it doesn't look

688
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 1: like what was in the witness's head, and that does

689
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 1: nobody any good. So having a good witness is gold.

690
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 1: And a witness says, I don't remember his nose. I

691
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 1: don't remember, I don't remember. It was average. That's like

692
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 1: pulling teeth and it's hard for everybody. It's hard for everybody.

693
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 2: Hey, guys, this episode is brought to you by The

694
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 2: Gross Room. Starting on February ninth to February twenty third,

695
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 2: the Gross Room will be on sale for only twenty dollars.

696
00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:00,200
Speaker 2: For the entire year of Gross You will have access

697
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 2: to celebrity death dissections, high profile death dissections, thousands of videos, photos, articles,

698
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 2: all the way dating back to twenty nineteen. You definitely

699
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 2: need to join this Valentine's Day. Please go to the

700
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 2: grossroom dot com for more info and sign up. So

701
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 2: when you're off work, like I know, for example, for me,

702
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 2: I'll just be it just happened to me a couple

703
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 2: weeks ago. I'm just sitting there with one of my friends,

704
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 2: and I notice pathology on people all the time, and

705
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 2: it's hard for me to like shut that off. I

706
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,359
Speaker 2: feel bad about it because I just can't shut it off.

707
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,400
Speaker 2: If I notice someone has like a weird bomb or

708
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 2: something's going on with them, I can't.

709
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 1: Shut it off.

710
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 2: So the fact that you look at skulls for a living, right,

711
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 2: do you just kind of dissect every single person you

712
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 2: look at and think about like what their skull looks like.

713
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 1: Yes, in a word, yes, that's a joke between me

714
00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:00,879
Speaker 1: and my husband that I'll hee. We'd be sitting there

715
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:05,760
Speaker 1: talking and I he would notice that my gaze was off,

716
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 1: and he was you're looking at my skull, aren't you?

717
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 1: And I was like, I'm sorry, but just trying to

718
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 1: figure things out, you know, trying to figure out like, Okay,

719
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 1: there's a feature, how would it translate in flesh? And

720
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:18,359
Speaker 1: the funniest thing is to get a group of friends

721
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 1: of artists together. What time there was a group of

722
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 1: us at a conference and our waiter just had the

723
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 1: most unusually shaped face and we were all just like,

724
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 1: it's like star starings not staring because we just we

725
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 1: were curious. We're curious that it's one of those things

726
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 1: because it's a fascination. How does the skull translate to

727
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 1: the face, what causes that? It's like a puzzle, and

728
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 1: so that just kind of appealed to me.

729
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 2: It's really cool though, because I don't know if you've

730
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 2: ever been to the Modor Museum in Philly, but they

731
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 2: have a whole wall of skulls and you just look

732
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 2: at them and you're like, oh my god, this this

733
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 2: really could show that how people look so different. But

734
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 2: I think when you're a regular person and you just

735
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,919
Speaker 2: see a skull, like on TV or whatever, you don't

736
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 2: really realize how many differences there are just with the

737
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 2: size and with the orbits and everything, and how it

738
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 2: changes between cultures. Is that something that you had to

739
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 2: learned too about Is this person from European descent or

740
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:20,439
Speaker 2: Asian descent like things like that.

741
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 1: Well, the antipologists would do that because they have an

742
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 1: artist has no way near the training that would take

743
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 1: to be able to determine things like that. So the

744
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 1: antipologist sees it one way. They see it, of course,

745
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 1: in the scientific way, and they will say, you know,

746
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 1: the high Sex age stature ancestry. As an artist, when

747
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:47,439
Speaker 1: I first started, I thoughts looked alike. And of course

748
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 1: as soon as you see two skulls together, you're like,

749
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 1: oh my god, I couldn't have been more raw. And

750
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:53,759
Speaker 1: the first time I went to the body of farm

751
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 1: saw twenty doll in a row, and I also was

752
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 1: like a kidney candy store it was. And I've been

753
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 1: to the mutter and it was just fascinating. And yes,

754
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 1: you're standing there going, okay, I'm putting a face on

755
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 1: in my head, but yeah, it's that's the key to

756
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 1: why we look the way we do is it's all

757
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:16,319
Speaker 1: starts with a skull, and you know people people think, oh,

758
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 1: how can they do that? Like you're just making things up,

759
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 1: and it's like, no, there's a lot of information from

760
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 1: gesture skull. You know, there's there's some things that you

761
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 1: know are more leveled up to artistic interpretation. But I

762
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 1: would say that you have to make you have to

763
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 1: downplay what you don't know and play it when you

764
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 1: do know. So, as the anthropologist says, this person broke

765
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 1: their nose and it didn't heal right, and it was

766
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:44,400
Speaker 1: really crooked. So really emphasized that Orere, I could just

767
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 1: look at the skull and no, it's like, well they

768
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:50,799
Speaker 1: have close set eyes far apartized. So it's it's the

769
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: it's the overall look of the face. It's the head shape,

770
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:57,759
Speaker 1: where the features are. See, we don't know everything. We

771
00:41:57,800 --> 00:41:59,839
Speaker 1: don't know a lot of things with a facial approximation,

772
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 1: but we know where the features are. We can determine

773
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 1: some things like the shape of the nose, the length,

774
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 1: things like that, and you can never get I've had

775
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:13,800
Speaker 1: some that were like scary clothes that were really like wow,

776
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,239
Speaker 1: you know, the anthropologist and I were very happy with.

777
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:21,359
Speaker 1: But you can't get perfection, and that's actually not necessary

778
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: because in a facial approximation, you're looking for recognition from somebody,

779
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,440
Speaker 1: a family member that is looking for that person. You

780
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 1: could do a facial approximation, it's gonna look like fifty people.

781
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,320
Speaker 1: It could be fifty different people. But if a family

782
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 1: member is looking for their missing brother and they see

783
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 1: that sculpture, you just they could key on it and go, Okay,

784
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:45,880
Speaker 1: that looks like my brother or that's familiar. That's what

785
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 1: we're going for.

786
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,359
Speaker 2: It's just so interesting to me. I'm reading a book

787
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 2: with my daughter right now, a National Geographic book about

788
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 2: Mommy's Oh Okay, and they're talking about how they found

789
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 2: this one on Mount Everest. I think he was labeled

790
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:05,319
Speaker 2: the Iceman or something. But they were showing how they

791
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 2: took his skull and they recreated it to what he

792
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 2: would look like. And you know, my daughter's ten, so

793
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 2: she was just like, well.

794
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 1: How did it?

795
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 2: Was cool? They were I think in the book they

796
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 2: said that you couldn't really tell from the nose and

797
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,759
Speaker 2: the ears maybe as much what they would look like,

798
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:26,279
Speaker 2: but the they the guy was from European descent, and

799
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 2: they were able to do the what is it called

800
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 2: the facial approximations or whatever based on that, like how

801
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 2: thick this soft tissue would be in certain areas of

802
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:35,720
Speaker 2: the face and stuff.

803
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so we we generally saw a we have

804
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 1: tissued up tables just as as a guideline. Uh. Ears

805
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:46,879
Speaker 1: ears are just we know where they are, but they

806
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 1: don't really They're not important for identification because if somebody

807
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:53,279
Speaker 1: had big ears, you're not going to know that from

808
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 1: the skull. Things like the nose as long as the skull,

809
00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:59,359
Speaker 1: as long as the nose is fairly intact, we can

810
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:01,240
Speaker 1: tell a lot of it. We could tell if somebody

811
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:04,839
Speaker 1: has a long, crooked nose that points up and goes

812
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 1: to the left. The problem is in the forensic world

813
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 1: is that a lot of them are homesides. So if

814
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 1: they were shot in the face or or beat up,

815
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:16,279
Speaker 1: or you know, the skull has been out in the

816
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:20,879
Speaker 1: elements for how many years, little tiny bones get eaten up.

817
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 1: So the nasal spine, which you know, is one of

818
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 1: one of the features that we look at to determine

819
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:30,360
Speaker 1: the position of the nose, that the direction up or

820
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:34,959
Speaker 1: down or average that is I would say nine times

821
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 1: out of ten that was gone by the time it

822
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 1: got to me. Because you know, skull had been out

823
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:43,240
Speaker 1: there five to ten years and you know, a squirrel

824
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 1: shoot it off or something, or it had been you know,

825
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 1: the person had been you know, do trauma or something.

826
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 1: So the skulls that forensic artists get are they've been

827
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 1: through a lot. They've they've been through a lot by

828
00:44:58,640 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 1: that name.

829
00:44:59,160 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 2: They're not like texts.

830
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 1: Yeah. So yeah, so that was that was part of

831
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 1: the reason why I went to the body flarm. Not

832
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 1: to jump ahead, but that was part of the reasons

833
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 1: to try to learn more about what this nose looks like,

834
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:15,799
Speaker 1: you know, the nasal aperture, and then how might that

835
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 1: look in lives and yeah, so the so that's the

836
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:24,760
Speaker 1: difference between you know, the forensic ones and the historical ones.

837
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 1: You know, sometimes historical ones are in great shape either,

838
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:32,359
Speaker 1: but you're not. You're not looking for an ID. So

839
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 1: it's not like there's anything on the line. It's not

840
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,239
Speaker 1: because they yeah there's yeah, there's there's no it's not

841
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:40,400
Speaker 1: a high stakes thing, and.

842
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 2: It's just it also see what the guy might have

843
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 2: looked like.

844
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 1: But it's it's fascinating.

845
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,799
Speaker 2: It's let's get on to talking about so you your

846
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 2: book it comes out today, which is it's awesome. I

847
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:53,239
Speaker 2: read it and so did my daughter, but loved it.

848
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:55,879
Speaker 2: What made you decide that you were going to write

849
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 2: a book or write a book about this topic? Like,

850
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 2: what is your book about? Is it about your life?

851
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 2: Is it about a combination?

852
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 1: It's it's about my time in the FBI. And I

853
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 1: can honestly say that I was never going to write

854
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 1: a book just I was an artist and was like,

855
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 1: I'm not an author. I am not going to write

856
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:18,879
Speaker 1: a book. However, after what happened to me, there's it's

857
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 1: sort of somebody asked me to describe the book, and

858
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:23,240
Speaker 1: I said, well, it's kind of a cross between Bones

859
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 1: and Aaron Brockovich because it's it's my career. But then it's,

860
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 1: oh my god, the battles that you have to fight

861
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 1: when there's discrimination and harassment, and the crazy links that

862
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 1: can go.

863
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 2: Let's get into talking. Yeah, yeah, let's talk about that.

864
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 2: So you had your career, you obviously have a strong

865
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 2: passion for it, and you decided to create a website.

866
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 2: What exactly did you do on this website? Was it

867
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 2: to kind of teach others about forensic art?

868
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was purely that I'm going to make this

869
00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:59,239
Speaker 1: point because I'm probably a forensic artist that I know.

870
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 1: I was listening to this and make it clear. So

871
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:03,920
Speaker 1: in the FBI you need permission for pretty much everything.

872
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:07,160
Speaker 1: So I had permission to you know, you get permission

873
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 1: to run a website. I chose to keep it anonymous

874
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 1: because I didn't want to have FBI blare it everywhere

875
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:15,880
Speaker 1: and that I don't have that website up anymore. But

876
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:18,120
Speaker 1: it was called asked the Friends of Artists because I

877
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 1: was getting like phone calls and emails from people, you know,

878
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:21,800
Speaker 1: I want to be a friends of artists how to

879
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 1: do it? And there was no source out there, just

880
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:28,279
Speaker 1: like when I was twelve or thirteen and saw there

881
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:31,680
Speaker 1: was no resource. So I wanted to create a resource

882
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:33,720
Speaker 1: for people who wanted to be a friends of artists

883
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:36,919
Speaker 1: to help them get in the field, which is which

884
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 1: is yeah, that was That was my whole thing. So

885
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,479
Speaker 1: I still actually have I could push a button and

886
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:45,400
Speaker 1: make the website lie it again, which I might do.

887
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:51,279
Speaker 1: You know, you should, but it was everything was like,

888
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 1: you know, what what training do I need? Do I

889
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 1: need a degree? You know, where are the jobs handing

890
00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 1: get into it? It was it was purely educated and

891
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 1: I don't know. I just I'm the kind of person

892
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 1: if I find out something cool, I want to like

893
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:08,839
Speaker 1: grab the first person out go this cry I found out,

894
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 1: like you know, I look, you know, did you know

895
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 1: what happens when the skull does this? It's just I

896
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:15,279
Speaker 1: don't know, It's just kind of my nature. I just

897
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 1: I loved it so much that I just kind of

898
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 1: wanted to share it. And like I said, literally I

899
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:25,840
Speaker 1: would get phone calls and emails people not true me,

900
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 1: but my name got my name got associate with the

901
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 1: FBI because sometimes they would happens to interviews and everything.

902
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:36,360
Speaker 1: And then I was getting phone calls and emails like

903
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 1: how can I be a friends of artist at work?

904
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 1: And I was like, I'm sorry, I can't. I can't

905
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 1: sit here and tell you how to be a friends

906
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:45,319
Speaker 1: of artists. So that was part of it too, to

907
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:47,719
Speaker 1: put the information out there.

908
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 2: And what happened. So you have this website and it's

909
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 2: it's awesome for people that want to learn about your

910
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:55,440
Speaker 2: profession and what happened.

911
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 1: Oh, you mean the co plane.

912
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:02,520
Speaker 2: So someone that was an if former FBI employee complained

913
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:02,800
Speaker 2: about it.

914
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 1: No, she had taught we would have guest instructors at

915
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:10,799
Speaker 1: the FBI Academy. So for the facial levaging course, they

916
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:12,919
Speaker 1: would have you know, FBI people teaching, but then also

917
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:15,359
Speaker 1: there would be guest instructors. So she had taught at

918
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:19,800
Speaker 1: the academy. And I got called into my boss's office

919
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,240
Speaker 1: one day and she saw my website and she didn't

920
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 1: like it, and she decided to write a complaint letter

921
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:26,799
Speaker 1: to somebody way up in the FBI. And I got

922
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:30,799
Speaker 1: called on the carpet and I actually didn't get in

923
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 1: trouble for that. I mean, I had to explain myself.

924
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:35,840
Speaker 1: I didn't feel like I was in trouble at the moment.

925
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 1: It turns out I didn't. I didn't know it was coming.

926
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 2: But you had permission to do it, right, Yeah, So

927
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:47,880
Speaker 2: now all of a sudden it was a problem.

928
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:51,800
Speaker 1: It was for me. It was why is this person

929
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 1: doing this? Because what did I induced for her? And

930
00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 1: I am not doing anything wrong. And you know, I

931
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:00,359
Speaker 1: just spoken to my super like they knew I had

932
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 1: a website. I believe I still have the email in

933
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:09,440
Speaker 1: case it's like this is not bad memory. So my

934
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 1: SuperM sent me the email, so it was it was

935
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:16,400
Speaker 1: a complaint letter. I think this is unprofessional. And then

936
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 1: there was a ps the bloggers and FBI employed and

937
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:23,759
Speaker 1: it's like, well, I didn't have that on my website

938
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:26,840
Speaker 1: on purpose, and I guess that was supposed to be

939
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:29,920
Speaker 1: a zinger. And I don't know. I all I can

940
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 1: say is I mean, I was devastated. I was devastated

941
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:37,400
Speaker 1: because it was like, I'm not. All I'm trying to

942
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 1: do is you know, educate bat friends of art. I

943
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:43,799
Speaker 1: guess I only can say is there are you know,

944
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 1: some people women who support other women and others should don't.

945
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:51,239
Speaker 2: And I've had the same exact things happened to me,

946
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 2: trust me, so I one hundred percent understand.

947
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:54,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

948
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:57,239
Speaker 2: Actually, when my daughter read your book, she was like,

949
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 2: this lady has your exact life, Like yeah, she she

950
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:05,239
Speaker 2: just said it was it was crazy and because she

951
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:07,319
Speaker 2: had read it first and she's just like, you just

952
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:09,520
Speaker 2: won't believe it. She just went through the same exact

953
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:13,440
Speaker 2: stuff that you go through, you know. Yeah, And it's

954
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:17,600
Speaker 2: and it's always just I think that people are jealous

955
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 2: because they didn't have the idea first or something. I

956
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 2: don't know, just haters, people that are bored. I don't

957
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 2: know what it is, but there's there's people that will

958
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:29,360
Speaker 2: use all of their energy to try to destroy you.

959
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:32,960
Speaker 2: It's it's it's really it's really crazy what.

960
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:35,880
Speaker 1: You can't do. It is it's it's I don't understand.

961
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:37,720
Speaker 1: It's like you know, the what is it, the crabs

962
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:40,520
Speaker 1: in the barrel, you know that, you know, trying to

963
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:42,880
Speaker 1: drag you in the person down. It's like, I don't

964
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:46,759
Speaker 1: get it. I don't understand. And you know it's like

965
00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 1: I'm no competition. It's like but then people are like,

966
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 1: well you were at the FBI. I was like, well,

967
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:54,480
Speaker 1: she has an awesome career, Like I don't get it.

968
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:58,279
Speaker 2: But you know, how did so did she somehow know

969
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 2: that you were running the site? Because if you were

970
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:05,319
Speaker 2: anonymous on your site, like, how did right? How did she?

971
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:08,160
Speaker 2: How would she know to say, oh, this person's an

972
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 2: employee the FBI. If you never said that you were.

973
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:13,440
Speaker 1: Oh my god. The fact that you asked this, Like

974
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:16,319
Speaker 1: I said, we were friends slash acquaintances, like I met

975
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:19,520
Speaker 1: her in person many times. She wrote to me and

976
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:24,239
Speaker 1: she said, oh is this your is this your website?

977
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 1: I see this new news? Asked a friend saith artist,

978
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:30,799
Speaker 1: is that you? And I went I remember writing back

979
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:33,120
Speaker 1: you Sly Fox you figured it out like thinking it

980
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:35,440
Speaker 1: was fun and guinn It's like, oh, I'm figured out

981
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 1: it was mek God. And then literally like two days

982
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:41,040
Speaker 1: later they called into the office and that is the

983
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:43,560
Speaker 1: hand to got what happened. And that's why I was like,

984
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 1: I was like, damn it, she fooled. Like it's like

985
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:48,360
Speaker 1: I didn't know it was you, but now you just

986
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:52,520
Speaker 1: confirmed it. So yeah, that was yeah, and I just

987
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:54,640
Speaker 1: I've happened anonymous a weirdo.

988
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:59,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was just you know, so after that your

989
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:02,920
Speaker 2: work found doubt about it, things started getting bad for you.

990
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:06,239
Speaker 1: Things things were turning because there was a lot of

991
00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 1: transition during that time. So it was like in the

992
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 1: summer of twenty two thousand and nine, like everything there

993
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 1: was reorganization and new supervisors and so it was kind

994
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:24,800
Speaker 1: of like the perfect storm of things. And my new supervisors,

995
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:29,280
Speaker 1: one in particular just did not like friends of artists,

996
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:33,120
Speaker 1: and you know, he had he was a photographer, he

997
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 1: about hey ran the Puto group, and he had friends

998
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 1: of artists stuffed in his lap and he didn't like it.

999
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:40,839
Speaker 1: And he was very open about the fact that he

1000
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 1: did not like having friends of artists in unit. So

1001
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:49,759
Speaker 1: he had an asta grind, you know, and especially against me.

1002
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:53,240
Speaker 1: I don't know. People asked me, why was he picking

1003
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:55,719
Speaker 1: on you? And I said, maybe sun Redhead in his

1004
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:59,440
Speaker 1: childhood like made him. Man. I don't know, there was

1005
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:02,560
Speaker 1: there was just some people that twins tail of Taylor Smiths.

1006
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:04,880
Speaker 1: Some people are just mean. But yeah, I was like

1007
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:06,960
Speaker 1: I had a I have a target on my back

1008
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 1: and that kind of guy. I think that gave him

1009
00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:12,920
Speaker 1: a foothold because from the moment we were put in

1010
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:15,839
Speaker 1: the unit, he was trying to get us out. I mean,

1011
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:17,880
Speaker 1: that was common up. He told us, he said, I

1012
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:20,719
Speaker 1: don't want you in this. You know, there's myself and

1013
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:24,799
Speaker 1: several other friends of artists, and because he had lost

1014
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:28,480
Speaker 1: several photographers, there was like a swap of personnel, so

1015
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:31,800
Speaker 1: he wanted his photographers back. He didn't want us, and

1016
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:34,680
Speaker 1: that was just the first thing he could latch onto,

1017
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:37,080
Speaker 1: like that letter to upper management, because I didn't go

1018
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:39,800
Speaker 1: to him, and it went like several levels above him,

1019
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 1: and so he got called into somebody's helf as like,

1020
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:45,239
Speaker 1: you know, I guess what this friends of artists did

1021
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:46,680
Speaker 1: even though I was doing nothing wrong.

1022
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 2: But do you think there's a possibility that someone at

1023
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 2: the top was like, we need to get rid of her, like,

1024
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:57,479
Speaker 2: no matter what, this is not good that because she's

1025
00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:00,640
Speaker 2: like willing to talk publicly about No.

1026
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:03,080
Speaker 1: No, I mean the person I knew, the person that

1027
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:05,840
Speaker 1: she sent it to, and actually she wouldn't be surprised

1028
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:07,640
Speaker 1: to know that I was on good terms with him,

1029
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:11,080
Speaker 1: So he didn't have a problem with me. So it

1030
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:16,320
Speaker 1: People complain about the FBI all the time, Like if

1031
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:20,680
Speaker 1: my in my book that I felt my former supervisor Gary,

1032
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:24,040
Speaker 1: if that had happened with Gary, he would have laughed

1033
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:26,640
Speaker 1: his butt off and said, oh my god, you know,

1034
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:28,400
Speaker 1: and he would he would have laughed at all. He

1035
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:33,040
Speaker 1: would have taken it like not seriously at all, because

1036
00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:35,040
Speaker 1: he had the same thing happened to him, you know,

1037
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:37,760
Speaker 1: when he was coming up and everything. Like people, people,

1038
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:42,520
Speaker 1: they try to bring you down. So but this so Gary,

1039
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:46,040
Speaker 1: the previous supervisor, never would have been an issue. It

1040
00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:47,879
Speaker 1: would have been like because he knew her, he knew

1041
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:51,080
Speaker 1: how she was the new supervisor. Because he wanted friends

1042
00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:53,120
Speaker 1: of guardists out of the unit. That was kind of

1043
00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:55,520
Speaker 1: like the first little chip that he could try to

1044
00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:58,680
Speaker 1: get a toe hold on. So it didn't do the

1045
00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 1: trick as far as up upper management, you know, giving

1046
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:05,279
Speaker 1: me the sting guy, but it didn't have my supervisor

1047
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:07,600
Speaker 1: because he thought he had something on me.

1048
00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:12,600
Speaker 2: It was also, yeah, there's always like some man troll

1049
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:15,360
Speaker 2: that's trying to get I had this. I had the

1050
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:19,760
Speaker 2: same thing, just like some what the one female doctor

1051
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 2: at my work used to call them man child like

1052
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:25,000
Speaker 2: just trying to get rid of me and felt so

1053
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:27,240
Speaker 2: threatened by me, even though they were in a higher

1054
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:27,960
Speaker 2: position than me.

1055
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 1: It was so weird.

1056
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:32,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, So when you were working there at the FBI,

1057
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:35,840
Speaker 2: so I a couple of months ago. I don't know

1058
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:38,400
Speaker 2: if you heard my interview with doctor Daniel Wescov, but

1059
00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 2: he is a forensic anthropologist. Yeah, I love him. He

1060
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:45,440
Speaker 2: was awesome. He's a forensic anthropologist that and professor at

1061
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:48,560
Speaker 2: the body Farm at Texas State University. And he talked

1062
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:52,319
Speaker 2: about the body farm. So I was interested to learn

1063
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:54,839
Speaker 2: that you went there as part of your job as

1064
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:57,319
Speaker 2: the FBI. So could you explain to us what you

1065
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:00,240
Speaker 2: were doing there, because this was all around the same time.

1066
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:03,000
Speaker 1: Actually went I went to two different body farms. So

1067
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:05,120
Speaker 1: I went to the first body farm that you know,

1068
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:09,120
Speaker 1: the original at University of Tennessee. I went there six times.

1069
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:12,520
Speaker 1: And so that was a research project that I started because,

1070
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:14,360
Speaker 1: like I said, you know, we were trying to I

1071
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:16,920
Speaker 1: wanted to know, like, what does this not look like

1072
00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:19,840
Speaker 1: give real life and forensic artists. We did not have.

1073
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:23,760
Speaker 1: We didn't have any you know, proof, We didn't have

1074
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:26,160
Speaker 1: a skull. In the perfect world, you would have a

1075
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:27,840
Speaker 1: photo of a skull on a photo of the person

1076
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:30,840
Speaker 1: in life and you go, oh, okay, like start drawing

1077
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:35,680
Speaker 1: some correlations. And we didn't have that. So when I

1078
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:40,320
Speaker 1: read Death's Sake gre throwing a second time, and when

1079
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:43,120
Speaker 1: I found out that they had, I was going to

1080
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:45,520
Speaker 1: donate my body. So this is how it started is

1081
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:48,120
Speaker 1: I saw that they were selecting, and this is how

1082
00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:51,920
Speaker 1: it all began. I saw that on the application they

1083
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:55,040
Speaker 1: were asking for a driver's license photos and then it

1084
00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 1: was like the cartoon light bulb over my head. I

1085
00:57:57,040 --> 00:57:58,640
Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, they have photos and these

1086
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:02,560
Speaker 1: are donors. So the FBI laboratory being a laboratory, they

1087
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:05,360
Speaker 1: do research, and so we were, you know, and this

1088
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:08,320
Speaker 1: is my previous bossons I run up a research project.

1089
00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:10,840
Speaker 1: Let's go to the body farm and get all the

1090
00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:13,240
Speaker 1: donors they have that have life photos and all three

1091
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:16,120
Speaker 1: d scan them and then put together a reference collection

1092
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:19,360
Speaker 1: Sir forensic artists, and so we went there six times.

1093
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:20,400
Speaker 2: So that's so cool.

1094
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:23,080
Speaker 1: It was I just gave myself goose bumps. It was

1095
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:26,160
Speaker 1: was rewarding. It was just like, oh my god. It

1096
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:29,160
Speaker 1: was like I'm starting to sound like a goofball right now.

1097
00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:31,080
Speaker 1: But it was so exciting. It was like we had

1098
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:34,120
Speaker 1: we collected over one hundred skulls. We had their skulls,

1099
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:36,840
Speaker 1: we had their life photos, we had like the basic

1100
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:40,360
Speaker 1: an you know, we had their anthroological information. So you know,

1101
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:43,280
Speaker 1: I started putting together you know, I wanted to put

1102
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:47,360
Speaker 1: together together a reference guide and you know that of course,

1103
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:50,200
Speaker 1: you know obviously need to protect the privacy and the individuals,

1104
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:54,120
Speaker 1: but because they had been donated and they donated themselves,

1105
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:57,040
Speaker 1: it was allowed to be used for law enforcement for research.

1106
00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:00,320
Speaker 1: So my goal with that was to put to gather

1107
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:04,479
Speaker 1: just like the composite catalog has facial references, my goal

1108
00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:08,000
Speaker 1: was to put together a catalog of Stouttal references to

1109
00:59:08,040 --> 00:59:11,160
Speaker 1: have the skull and the face. That was my goal,

1110
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:15,840
Speaker 1: which didn't pan out for you know, reasons that became

1111
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:18,120
Speaker 1: clear later in the book, but that was my goal.

1112
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:21,720
Speaker 1: So then friends of artists could say on this knows

1113
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:23,800
Speaker 1: that I'm working on as similar, you know, they could

1114
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:27,400
Speaker 1: have some sort of guideline to look for. Everything else

1115
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:32,200
Speaker 1: is pretty much anecdotal. And then after that project ended,

1116
00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:37,240
Speaker 1: another there was another research project going on, and so

1117
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:39,960
Speaker 1: it kind of intertwined with ours. So we went to

1118
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:43,000
Speaker 1: the Texas Bodies r and then we scanned a number

1119
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:45,400
Speaker 1: of skulls there too, And I'm pretty sure I met

1120
00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:48,320
Speaker 1: doctor Westcott. He has a really big deer. Now. I

1121
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:52,000
Speaker 1: was there turnament when I was there easily ten years ago,

1122
00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 1: so I'm pretty much I'm pretty sure that's.

1123
00:59:56,400 --> 01:00:00,320
Speaker 2: Because I think he's been there for a while. So yeah, yeah, there,

1124
01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:04,520
Speaker 2: it seems like he's been there. That's so cool. It

1125
01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:07,520
Speaker 2: sounds like you were on the brink of you know,

1126
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:10,240
Speaker 2: because a lot of people don't realize that when you're

1127
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:13,280
Speaker 2: working with skulls, it's it's a face, and a face

1128
01:00:13,360 --> 01:00:17,200
Speaker 2: is considered an identifiable feature, so you would have to

1129
01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:21,360
Speaker 2: get permission. And the problem is is that the person's dead,

1130
01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:25,000
Speaker 2: so you can't really get permission from them anymore. But

1131
01:00:25,160 --> 01:00:28,120
Speaker 2: when they did give permission to donate their body towards

1132
01:00:28,160 --> 01:00:31,120
Speaker 2: these types of things, it sucks that you weren't able

1133
01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:35,720
Speaker 2: to follow through with that. You were talking earlier about

1134
01:00:36,080 --> 01:00:39,480
Speaker 2: you guys used like a sketch pen, and you weren't

1135
01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:42,480
Speaker 2: a patent paper to sketch, and you were talking about

1136
01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:48,800
Speaker 2: technology that exists on with computers and things like that.

1137
01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:51,000
Speaker 2: I guess you could use like a program even on

1138
01:00:51,040 --> 01:00:54,440
Speaker 2: an iPad or something to do drawings at this point,

1139
01:00:54,960 --> 01:01:00,120
Speaker 2: but while you were there, because now, for example, well

1140
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:02,480
Speaker 2: even in this Mommy book that I'm reading with my daughter,

1141
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:05,160
Speaker 2: which is already probably dated at this point a couple

1142
01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:08,160
Speaker 2: of years old, they show that they use AI and

1143
01:01:08,200 --> 01:01:11,520
Speaker 2: they're using scanning of skulls a lot and stuff as

1144
01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:15,840
Speaker 2: opposed to using the typical clay to do a sculpture

1145
01:01:16,040 --> 01:01:19,640
Speaker 2: or to use drawings. Did you see any of that

1146
01:01:19,720 --> 01:01:22,120
Speaker 2: before you had left the FBI, that they were moving

1147
01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:26,560
Speaker 2: over to more advanced technology as far as using those

1148
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:31,800
Speaker 2: identifying features rather than using the traditional art materials.

1149
01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:38,800
Speaker 1: That. Yeah, Actually, I probably six months before I retire,

1150
01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:43,440
Speaker 1: I was going to transition to digital sculpting because it

1151
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:46,520
Speaker 1: was the way things progress. That we always used to

1152
01:01:46,520 --> 01:01:50,920
Speaker 1: do two D approximations in the FBI, and the treaty

1153
01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:54,040
Speaker 1: came along when the group got a scanner, so we

1154
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:57,240
Speaker 1: had never done treaty. This is about a point I

1155
01:01:57,280 --> 01:01:59,520
Speaker 1: need to make as far as working with clay and skulls,

1156
01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:01,240
Speaker 1: as you never put clay on the skull because the

1157
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:04,560
Speaker 1: skull is evidence. Never never, never, So that's why we'd

1158
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:07,240
Speaker 1: scan the skull, make a copy, and put you know,

1159
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:14,160
Speaker 1: sculpt with clay on the replica. And then when we

1160
01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:16,320
Speaker 1: were doing that before they were like off the shelf

1161
01:02:16,480 --> 01:02:18,920
Speaker 1: three D sculpting programs. You know, there were three D

1162
01:02:18,920 --> 01:02:21,600
Speaker 1: sculpting programs out there, but they cost fifty thousand dollars.

1163
01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:24,520
Speaker 1: So that's why we did clay on replicas. And then

1164
01:02:24,800 --> 01:02:27,400
Speaker 1: as I'm not gonna be able to think of the name,

1165
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:29,280
Speaker 1: I think I'm not gonna be able to think of

1166
01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:32,080
Speaker 1: the name of the software. But now there are even

1167
01:02:32,320 --> 01:02:37,160
Speaker 1: five years ago, off the shelf three D sculpting software.

1168
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:41,160
Speaker 1: So I was I had ordered a new computer, so

1169
01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:44,080
Speaker 1: I had a great, big news souped up computer. I

1170
01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:46,920
Speaker 1: had ordered this, I got the software in and I

1171
01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:53,000
Speaker 1: was transitioning to sculpting digitally, which to me, it's it's

1172
01:02:53,240 --> 01:02:55,560
Speaker 1: better on it's it's better all around. I mean, it

1173
01:02:55,560 --> 01:02:57,440
Speaker 1: would be faster. There's no need to print a skull.

1174
01:02:57,640 --> 01:03:02,280
Speaker 1: You can see through the into the skull. So that's

1175
01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:05,600
Speaker 1: where I was going. And just as all that was

1176
01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 1: coming together, I forced the naybe decide to retire or

1177
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:14,080
Speaker 1: I retired. Yeah, that that's kind of explained in the book.

1178
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:17,960
Speaker 1: It was just I guess to be like long, long

1179
01:03:17,960 --> 01:03:20,560
Speaker 1: story short. It was by then I was in a

1180
01:03:20,600 --> 01:03:25,120
Speaker 1: new unit with a fabulous supervisor, and things are really

1181
01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:28,680
Speaker 1: pretty great, and it was just sometimes I never thought

1182
01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:32,280
Speaker 1: I would leave friends of art, but just after a

1183
01:03:32,360 --> 01:03:36,560
Speaker 1: while it was like, I, yeah, some things you just can't.

1184
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:40,080
Speaker 1: There's only so much stress to put up with. Because

1185
01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:43,560
Speaker 1: there was it was never I understand that it was

1186
01:03:43,640 --> 01:03:47,280
Speaker 1: never gone. The threat was always back there, like the

1187
01:03:47,920 --> 01:03:52,040
Speaker 1: threat that the not so's ailed threat was taking my clearance.

1188
01:03:52,920 --> 01:03:55,880
Speaker 1: And without a clearance you're dead meat. You can't work anywhere,

1189
01:03:56,440 --> 01:04:02,880
Speaker 1: and you're your debt. So so when I when I

1190
01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:05,960
Speaker 1: when those storm clouds started, I was like, you know what.

1191
01:04:06,440 --> 01:04:10,080
Speaker 1: And then also you know I had lost the just

1192
01:04:10,920 --> 01:04:12,800
Speaker 1: less than the year before. You know, my mom and

1193
01:04:12,840 --> 01:04:15,320
Speaker 1: my brother died within two months of each other, and

1194
01:04:15,360 --> 01:04:18,600
Speaker 1: that was like, yeah, no, that's that's that's fine. I mean,

1195
01:04:18,760 --> 01:04:22,080
Speaker 1: but you know, things like that, you know, you start

1196
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:24,120
Speaker 1: sessing your life and you look around and you go,

1197
01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:26,400
Speaker 1: why am I, Why am I doing this? Why am

1198
01:04:26,440 --> 01:04:28,640
Speaker 1: I putting up with this? And what else can I do?

1199
01:04:29,200 --> 01:04:32,240
Speaker 1: And you know, after something like that, you know, you

1200
01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:35,360
Speaker 1: start thinking. And that's when that's when I was like,

1201
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:37,600
Speaker 1: you know what I was. I was planning on retiring

1202
01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:40,480
Speaker 1: at sixty two, and when I was fifty eight, it's like,

1203
01:04:40,560 --> 01:04:43,280
Speaker 1: I'm eligible. Let's and my husband and I were like,

1204
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:46,400
Speaker 1: let's just do something completely and utterly different, and that's

1205
01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:48,280
Speaker 1: what we did. We moved to Vegas.

1206
01:04:49,240 --> 01:04:52,000
Speaker 2: He was probably, yeah, I was going to say, like

1207
01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:54,680
Speaker 2: he was probably because when when I was working at

1208
01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:56,600
Speaker 2: the hospital and they were giving me a hard time,

1209
01:04:56,640 --> 01:04:58,160
Speaker 2: there were a few times that I would just come

1210
01:04:58,200 --> 01:05:03,400
Speaker 2: home and cry every day, like over over some bullshit, right,

1211
01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:07,360
Speaker 2: And my husband finally was just like, I can't have

1212
01:05:07,520 --> 01:05:11,479
Speaker 2: you like this anymore, you know, And it sucks because

1213
01:05:11,480 --> 01:05:14,640
Speaker 2: when you love your job so much, and it's not

1214
01:05:14,760 --> 01:05:16,560
Speaker 2: that you don't love your job. You love your job,

1215
01:05:16,600 --> 01:05:19,360
Speaker 2: it's just the people are making it absolutely brutal to

1216
01:05:19,440 --> 01:05:22,720
Speaker 2: work there. Well, so I have kind of like a

1217
01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:27,640
Speaker 2: juicy question. Okay, when I interned at the when I

1218
01:05:27,720 --> 01:05:30,720
Speaker 2: interned at the Philly M's office. I remember one day

1219
01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:33,200
Speaker 2: I was up in the offices and I saw these

1220
01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:35,920
Speaker 2: giant posters that were black and white and it had

1221
01:05:35,960 --> 01:05:39,560
Speaker 2: this really disturbing looking child on it that was dead,

1222
01:05:40,200 --> 01:05:43,000
Speaker 2: like looked like he was around five years old. And

1223
01:05:43,080 --> 01:05:45,400
Speaker 2: I was like, what is this. I said to the

1224
01:05:45,520 --> 01:05:48,120
Speaker 2: medical examiner that I was interning with, what the hell

1225
01:05:48,240 --> 01:05:50,880
Speaker 2: is this thing doing in the closet? And he was like, Oh,

1226
01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:54,040
Speaker 2: that's the boy in the box case, and I was

1227
01:05:54,240 --> 01:05:56,320
Speaker 2: I didn't know anything about it, and when I learned

1228
01:05:56,360 --> 01:05:58,680
Speaker 2: about it, it was crazy. It was a very high

1229
01:05:58,760 --> 01:06:02,840
Speaker 2: profile case that happened in Philadelphia where a young boy

1230
01:06:03,040 --> 01:06:06,400
Speaker 2: was found dead in a box and they recently have

1231
01:06:06,640 --> 01:06:09,920
Speaker 2: just figured out who the kid is, which is crazy.

1232
01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:13,640
Speaker 2: But I thought it was so cool that there was

1233
01:06:13,680 --> 01:06:17,080
Speaker 2: this old It wasn't the actual boy in the box

1234
01:06:17,120 --> 01:06:19,520
Speaker 2: in the closet, It was just these posters that they

1235
01:06:19,560 --> 01:06:22,360
Speaker 2: had made up at the time that said, you know

1236
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:25,400
Speaker 2: who this is because nobody knew who this kid was

1237
01:06:26,080 --> 01:06:29,480
Speaker 2: and nobody had reported that a kid was missing, so like,

1238
01:06:30,080 --> 01:06:33,360
Speaker 2: five year olds don't just appear dead that nobody knows

1239
01:06:33,440 --> 01:06:34,640
Speaker 2: that they were missing.

1240
01:06:34,360 --> 01:06:35,200
Speaker 1: Right right?

1241
01:06:35,440 --> 01:06:38,480
Speaker 2: And I thought that cool piece of Philadelphia forensic history.

1242
01:06:38,560 --> 01:06:40,480
Speaker 2: Was so cool that it was just in the closet

1243
01:06:40,520 --> 01:06:43,680
Speaker 2: there because the office was old. As you were saying

1244
01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:48,640
Speaker 2: with says I and everything. There was a Philadelphia forensic

1245
01:06:48,680 --> 01:06:51,200
Speaker 2: show that was on at some point that would show

1246
01:06:51,280 --> 01:06:54,120
Speaker 2: with the Medical Examiner's office in Philadelphia, and it was

1247
01:06:54,160 --> 01:06:57,600
Speaker 2: all shiny and stainless steel, and I thought, like the

1248
01:06:57,640 --> 01:07:00,840
Speaker 2: Medical Examiner's Office. Well, I think that they move since then,

1249
01:07:00,880 --> 01:07:04,920
Speaker 2: but at the time it was very seventies wood paneling,

1250
01:07:05,600 --> 01:07:10,440
Speaker 2: just old building cubicles, all that fake wood stuff. But anyway,

1251
01:07:10,440 --> 01:07:12,280
Speaker 2: I thought it was really cool that that there was

1252
01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:15,880
Speaker 2: this this old Philadelphia forensic history there at the office

1253
01:07:16,200 --> 01:07:18,360
Speaker 2: when you and you said, when you started working at

1254
01:07:18,360 --> 01:07:21,600
Speaker 2: the FBI, they said, oh, here's our room of skulls

1255
01:07:21,720 --> 01:07:25,480
Speaker 2: or whatever. Were there some cases that were there that

1256
01:07:25,680 --> 01:07:28,960
Speaker 2: you were familiar with that that you couldn't believe you

1257
01:07:29,000 --> 01:07:31,200
Speaker 2: were seeing the actual real evidence in front of your

1258
01:07:31,240 --> 01:07:32,640
Speaker 2: eyes that they still had there.

1259
01:07:33,520 --> 01:07:40,320
Speaker 1: Yes, it was older cases. What was the book? Was it?

1260
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:45,440
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Jeffrey McDonald's. He was a doctor and he was

1261
01:07:45,480 --> 01:07:47,960
Speaker 1: convicted of killing This was like during the sixties and

1262
01:07:48,200 --> 01:07:52,720
Speaker 1: seventies killing his wife. His wife and his kids and

1263
01:07:52,840 --> 01:07:57,800
Speaker 1: he was a military doctor. Fatal Fatal Vision. That was

1264
01:07:57,840 --> 01:08:00,600
Speaker 1: the book I remember reading Sadal Vision before I ever

1265
01:08:00,600 --> 01:08:03,960
Speaker 1: thought of being in the FBI. And then in the

1266
01:08:04,080 --> 01:08:07,480
Speaker 1: archives there were just like these big, you know, gray drawert,

1267
01:08:07,720 --> 01:08:11,440
Speaker 1: gray cabinets that had lots of case work, lots of

1268
01:08:11,600 --> 01:08:16,559
Speaker 1: exhibitits from years before. So I saw, you know, the

1269
01:08:16,600 --> 01:08:19,680
Speaker 1: crime scene photos from that Jeffred McDonald case, and it

1270
01:08:19,800 --> 01:08:22,439
Speaker 1: was like it was just it was I'm glad they

1271
01:08:22,439 --> 01:08:25,120
Speaker 1: were black and white at that, you know. Now, you know,

1272
01:08:25,439 --> 01:08:28,320
Speaker 1: within a few months, I was looking at a lot

1273
01:08:28,360 --> 01:08:33,400
Speaker 1: of gory things. But yeah, I remember seeing the trial

1274
01:08:33,400 --> 01:08:35,800
Speaker 1: work for the Jeffer McDonald case. That was the first

1275
01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:37,519
Speaker 1: thing that stuck in my mind. Was like I know

1276
01:08:37,640 --> 01:08:41,800
Speaker 1: this one. So that was and I kind of feel

1277
01:08:41,880 --> 01:08:45,439
Speaker 1: like an insider, like ooh, I saw this, but you know,

1278
01:08:45,479 --> 01:08:47,840
Speaker 1: it's just kind of like everyday work at the FBI.

1279
01:08:47,920 --> 01:08:49,880
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, you know, yeah, I worked on this.

1280
01:08:50,120 --> 01:08:54,560
Speaker 1: That's not like blase or anything. But me, I was

1281
01:08:54,600 --> 01:08:57,240
Speaker 1: completely new and peeked out, like I'm going through this

1282
01:08:57,360 --> 01:09:00,959
Speaker 1: like it's a treasure trove, like just look throwing the files.

1283
01:09:01,000 --> 01:09:02,479
Speaker 1: And some of the other artists were like why do

1284
01:09:02,560 --> 01:09:05,520
Speaker 1: help it that for It's like because it's very interesting.

1285
01:09:06,520 --> 01:09:10,880
Speaker 2: It's yeah, is it hard when you're sitting around, like

1286
01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:12,840
Speaker 2: especially during the nine to eleven time?

1287
01:09:13,320 --> 01:09:14,080
Speaker 1: It was horrible.

1288
01:09:14,160 --> 01:09:16,280
Speaker 2: I mean I was I was in my early twenties,

1289
01:09:16,280 --> 01:09:18,680
Speaker 2: but I vividly remember everything that was going on at

1290
01:09:18,720 --> 01:09:21,559
Speaker 2: the time. Like you're sitting around at a dinner party

1291
01:09:21,640 --> 01:09:25,519
Speaker 2: or something, and everybody knows you work there, and they're

1292
01:09:25,880 --> 01:09:28,920
Speaker 2: you know, they're people are trying to talk about how

1293
01:09:28,920 --> 01:09:31,320
Speaker 2: are they how they figure out who the hijackers are?

1294
01:09:31,360 --> 01:09:33,720
Speaker 2: How do they figure out this? How where are all

1295
01:09:33,760 --> 01:09:36,400
Speaker 2: these people that are missing? And stuff? People have questions?

1296
01:09:36,439 --> 01:09:39,439
Speaker 2: Did did? How? Is it hard for you to just

1297
01:09:40,720 --> 01:09:44,439
Speaker 2: keep like keep that in, you know, just because you're

1298
01:09:44,479 --> 01:09:47,559
Speaker 2: saying it was very emotional, so you know, sometimes it

1299
01:09:47,560 --> 01:09:49,680
Speaker 2: feels better when you could talk about stuff when it

1300
01:09:49,840 --> 01:09:52,400
Speaker 2: upsets you, but you didn't really have anyone to talk It.

1301
01:09:52,320 --> 01:09:56,760
Speaker 1: Was Yeah, I wouldn't ever and I didn't want to

1302
01:09:56,800 --> 01:09:59,280
Speaker 1: talk about it. Like later, my husband and I weren't

1303
01:09:59,280 --> 01:10:03,360
Speaker 1: married that point, you know, so I would call him

1304
01:10:03,360 --> 01:10:06,120
Speaker 1: and you know, he you know, he noticed that I

1305
01:10:06,200 --> 01:10:08,960
Speaker 1: was down. It was just like at that point that

1306
01:10:09,080 --> 01:10:11,959
Speaker 1: was during you know, scanning all these photos and everything,

1307
01:10:12,280 --> 01:10:15,320
Speaker 1: and but the photos we were scanning, they were all

1308
01:10:15,320 --> 01:10:18,479
Speaker 1: like birthday parties and graduations and all these happy events.

1309
01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:21,920
Speaker 1: And then but you're knowing that this person is gone.

1310
01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:24,120
Speaker 1: So that was you know, you start, you know, you

1311
01:10:24,160 --> 01:10:26,559
Speaker 1: look at pictures of people smiling and happy and you go, oh,

1312
01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:28,839
Speaker 1: that's really nice, and then you go then you remember

1313
01:10:29,240 --> 01:10:32,000
Speaker 1: why you're scanning the picture and this person is gone.

1314
01:10:32,520 --> 01:10:36,040
Speaker 1: So it was yeah, so I didn't want to talk

1315
01:10:36,080 --> 01:10:38,439
Speaker 1: about it. I didn't want to talk about it later.

1316
01:10:38,479 --> 01:10:41,559
Speaker 1: It was like I just tried to, you know, try

1317
01:10:41,600 --> 01:10:45,680
Speaker 1: to try it. Yeah, and you know some of the yeah,

1318
01:10:45,720 --> 01:10:50,160
Speaker 1: I had to had to do some child a ducta

1319
01:10:52,520 --> 01:10:55,400
Speaker 1: Oh my god, some PEDOPHI don't take those. Yeah, those

1320
01:10:56,280 --> 01:11:00,519
Speaker 1: those you have to yeah before yeah, before that. I

1321
01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:04,320
Speaker 1: normally we wouldn't do that. There's like tesks Force, your

1322
01:11:04,400 --> 01:11:07,640
Speaker 1: special team at the FBI and at other agencies like

1323
01:11:07,680 --> 01:11:11,280
Speaker 1: at the National Center Missing Exploited Children that will look

1324
01:11:11,320 --> 01:11:14,160
Speaker 1: at these photos and then they try to sanitize them

1325
01:11:14,240 --> 01:11:17,599
Speaker 1: so they can you know, figure out, can they figure

1326
01:11:17,600 --> 01:11:20,240
Speaker 1: out what motel this is based on the bedspread and

1327
01:11:20,280 --> 01:11:23,800
Speaker 1: the curtains and things like that. So you know, I did.

1328
01:11:23,960 --> 01:11:26,519
Speaker 1: I did a few of those, not many that was enough.

1329
01:11:27,120 --> 01:11:32,559
Speaker 1: So yeah, you just I've actually talked to one of

1330
01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:36,639
Speaker 1: the FBI psychologists. She was a psychologist at the Academy,

1331
01:11:36,680 --> 01:11:40,080
Speaker 1: and just in a discussion, not anything formal, said, Okay,

1332
01:11:40,120 --> 01:11:42,040
Speaker 1: I'm going to have to look at these photos. I

1333
01:11:42,080 --> 01:11:43,559
Speaker 1: know they're coming in and I don't want to look

1334
01:11:43,600 --> 01:11:46,320
Speaker 1: at them, and how do I handle it? And you know,

1335
01:11:46,400 --> 01:11:53,240
Speaker 1: she's like just trying to compartmentalize it, and I just

1336
01:11:53,360 --> 01:11:56,240
Speaker 1: had to kind of disassociate and go, it's pixels out

1337
01:11:56,280 --> 01:11:58,280
Speaker 1: of screen, like zooming way in they would you know

1338
01:11:58,280 --> 01:12:00,320
Speaker 1: that it's just all these little pixels and stuff. Just

1339
01:12:00,360 --> 01:12:05,200
Speaker 1: trying to put it aside, and yeah, I'm I'm very blad.

1340
01:12:05,240 --> 01:12:06,920
Speaker 1: I only had to do a few of those. And

1341
01:12:07,040 --> 01:12:10,360
Speaker 1: actually I found out just by chance it one of

1342
01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:13,960
Speaker 1: one little girl was recover just one of the photos

1343
01:12:14,000 --> 01:12:15,960
Speaker 1: I worked on. And it's a huge team of people

1344
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:19,640
Speaker 1: doing these things. It's not it's not like, oh, you know,

1345
01:12:19,720 --> 01:12:21,600
Speaker 1: I did this photo and she was found, but it

1346
01:12:21,720 --> 01:12:23,879
Speaker 1: was just I was on a tour of the National

1347
01:12:23,960 --> 01:12:27,160
Speaker 1: Center and this image comes up and they said she

1348
01:12:27,240 --> 01:12:29,360
Speaker 1: was recovered. I was like, oh, I know her, that's

1349
01:12:29,640 --> 01:12:31,599
Speaker 1: you know, one of the you know, how you had

1350
01:12:31,600 --> 01:12:34,160
Speaker 1: the boy in the box and this was like, you know,

1351
01:12:34,920 --> 01:12:38,320
Speaker 1: boots are you know she wore cowboy boots or something,

1352
01:12:38,400 --> 01:12:41,280
Speaker 1: So it was just that was nice. It's like, okay,

1353
01:12:41,880 --> 01:12:43,679
Speaker 1: you know I had to see this. But then later

1354
01:12:43,800 --> 01:12:45,600
Speaker 1: yes there was a happy ending. She was found and

1355
01:12:45,640 --> 01:12:46,719
Speaker 1: she's safe and recovered.

1356
01:12:47,960 --> 01:12:52,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, so does that happen that when I guess that's

1357
01:12:52,960 --> 01:12:55,200
Speaker 2: the question, like the follow through do you Cause a

1358
01:12:55,200 --> 01:12:59,240
Speaker 2: lot of times I'll do an autopsy or something. Well,

1359
01:12:59,560 --> 01:13:01,880
Speaker 2: it's it's better now when I was working at the

1360
01:13:01,920 --> 01:13:04,439
Speaker 2: hospital and I was so in depth, But sometimes I

1361
01:13:04,560 --> 01:13:07,479
Speaker 2: do like per dam autopsies, and I'll do it and

1362
01:13:07,520 --> 01:13:09,519
Speaker 2: then I submit the slides and everything, and then I

1363
01:13:09,560 --> 01:13:11,880
Speaker 2: really don't know, Like I kind of think, what I

1364
01:13:11,920 --> 01:13:14,040
Speaker 2: know how the person died, But then I don't really

1365
01:13:14,080 --> 01:13:16,160
Speaker 2: ever hear the follow through of the case, which I

1366
01:13:17,000 --> 01:13:20,400
Speaker 2: love like a full circle thing. So do your bosses

1367
01:13:20,479 --> 01:13:23,920
Speaker 2: sit down with you and say, like, hey, this case

1368
01:13:23,960 --> 01:13:26,240
Speaker 2: we've been working on was solved or is that something

1369
01:13:26,280 --> 01:13:27,240
Speaker 2: like you heard on the news.

1370
01:13:27,439 --> 01:13:29,760
Speaker 1: No, I mean some of the things that wouldn't make

1371
01:13:29,840 --> 01:13:33,120
Speaker 1: the news like we did. Usually the way I found

1372
01:13:33,120 --> 01:13:35,360
Speaker 1: out and you would never you didn't always find out

1373
01:13:35,439 --> 01:13:37,760
Speaker 1: It would basically be if the agent, like if I

1374
01:13:37,800 --> 01:13:40,720
Speaker 1: went out and I remember it did some you know,

1375
01:13:40,840 --> 01:13:43,800
Speaker 1: some cleposit sketches and then you know, the agent emailed me.

1376
01:13:43,920 --> 01:13:45,360
Speaker 1: Was like when we got and we got them, and

1377
01:13:45,360 --> 01:13:47,960
Speaker 1: this was something that didn't go and didn't make the news.

1378
01:13:48,040 --> 01:13:53,679
Speaker 1: It was a different thing. And I would I would

1379
01:13:53,760 --> 01:13:56,360
Speaker 1: have the capability because the FBI has, you know, the

1380
01:13:56,400 --> 01:13:59,720
Speaker 1: whole database that you know, I could probably have gone in,

1381
01:14:00,040 --> 01:14:02,000
Speaker 1: looked up and found out. I mean I could have

1382
01:14:02,080 --> 01:14:04,519
Speaker 1: called the agent after, you know, because I worked with

1383
01:14:04,560 --> 01:14:07,320
Speaker 1: a lot of agents, I could have called the detective

1384
01:14:07,360 --> 01:14:10,320
Speaker 1: to go, hey, what happened, But I guess I didn't

1385
01:14:10,320 --> 01:14:12,120
Speaker 1: want to annoy them. I thought, you know, I did

1386
01:14:12,120 --> 01:14:14,519
Speaker 1: my job. That was a tool for them to do

1387
01:14:14,560 --> 01:14:17,519
Speaker 1: their job, and then now they do their work. And

1388
01:14:18,560 --> 01:14:21,679
Speaker 1: I just was never comfortable calling them back and going like, hey,

1389
01:14:21,680 --> 01:14:25,000
Speaker 1: what happened? Did it work? And you know, lots of

1390
01:14:25,040 --> 01:14:28,000
Speaker 1: times things did, and they might you know, sometimes they

1391
01:14:28,000 --> 01:14:31,040
Speaker 1: would call like really or email like really ecstatic, like

1392
01:14:31,080 --> 01:14:33,559
Speaker 1: you know, oh my god, this is great. And sometimes

1393
01:14:33,560 --> 01:14:35,920
Speaker 1: you'd never hear and then you'd find out later that

1394
01:14:36,880 --> 01:14:40,640
Speaker 1: you know, you'd find out like I saw things. I

1395
01:14:40,640 --> 01:14:42,599
Speaker 1: would see things in the newspaper, like you know, if

1396
01:14:42,600 --> 01:14:44,200
Speaker 1: Pedophile it was a restaurant. I was not. Oh I

1397
01:14:44,240 --> 01:14:47,000
Speaker 1: worked on that, and oh this is funny. Went up

1398
01:14:47,040 --> 01:14:50,519
Speaker 1: my girlfriend Liz Heilinds. She called me one time and

1399
01:14:50,600 --> 01:14:53,800
Speaker 1: she said, oh, I just saw this one approximation and

1400
01:14:53,840 --> 01:14:56,679
Speaker 1: this person was ID and you know, did you work

1401
01:14:56,720 --> 01:14:58,160
Speaker 1: on that? And I was like who what? And she

1402
01:14:58,200 --> 01:15:00,360
Speaker 1: sent me the link and I was like, oh, I, yeah,

1403
01:15:00,360 --> 01:15:02,559
Speaker 1: that is mine. I had no My girlfriend found out

1404
01:15:02,600 --> 01:15:05,120
Speaker 1: she was ID before I did, and I worked at

1405
01:15:05,120 --> 01:15:07,680
Speaker 1: the end of the I Liz thought that was hysterical

1406
01:15:09,080 --> 01:15:13,559
Speaker 1: before I did. Yeah, I just I soon have probably

1407
01:15:13,640 --> 01:15:17,479
Speaker 1: kept track of like everything I did, and I kept

1408
01:15:17,479 --> 01:15:19,680
Speaker 1: good notes and I kept good records and everything. But

1409
01:15:22,160 --> 01:15:23,760
Speaker 1: I don't know. I kind of it's like, Okay, I

1410
01:15:23,800 --> 01:15:25,840
Speaker 1: did the work that and I would put it sign

1411
01:15:25,840 --> 01:15:26,800
Speaker 1: and go on to the next thing.

1412
01:15:28,720 --> 01:15:30,680
Speaker 2: I know I should. I always think about that too.

1413
01:15:30,720 --> 01:15:33,000
Speaker 2: I get so many because people say, like, how many

1414
01:15:33,000 --> 01:15:35,280
Speaker 2: autopsies have you did? Did you do this? And I

1415
01:15:35,320 --> 01:15:37,639
Speaker 2: have a pretty good recollection of like what I've seen,

1416
01:15:38,240 --> 01:15:41,559
Speaker 2: But I really wish that because sometimes it just want

1417
01:15:41,600 --> 01:15:43,200
Speaker 2: to pop in my head and I'll be like, oh

1418
01:15:43,280 --> 01:15:45,519
Speaker 2: I yeah, I did that, like I wish I wrote

1419
01:15:45,560 --> 01:15:48,599
Speaker 2: down more. You know. Yeah, it's just like I feel

1420
01:15:48,600 --> 01:15:50,320
Speaker 2: like you would do that now, But it's just like

1421
01:15:50,400 --> 01:15:52,479
Speaker 2: back then, you just go to work and do your

1422
01:15:52,520 --> 01:15:54,600
Speaker 2: thing and you just you know, I try to just

1423
01:15:54,640 --> 01:15:56,599
Speaker 2: take in as much as I can in my memory,

1424
01:15:56,640 --> 01:16:00,240
Speaker 2: and that's it. But so let's I don't I don't

1425
01:16:00,240 --> 01:16:02,599
Speaker 2: want to get into why exactly you left and everything,

1426
01:16:02,600 --> 01:16:05,040
Speaker 2: because we need to leave some stuff for your book.

1427
01:16:06,600 --> 01:16:09,720
Speaker 2: But since you you did leave now and you're not

1428
01:16:09,800 --> 01:16:14,400
Speaker 2: doing that anymore, so are you still interested in the

1429
01:16:14,920 --> 01:16:16,719
Speaker 2: whole like true crime world?

1430
01:16:16,760 --> 01:16:17,040
Speaker 1: Are you?

1431
01:16:17,120 --> 01:16:21,000
Speaker 2: Do you listen to podcasts and TV shows or things

1432
01:16:21,040 --> 01:16:24,840
Speaker 2: like that, or are you kind of like I'm over

1433
01:16:24,880 --> 01:16:27,599
Speaker 2: that part of my life and I'm just doing something

1434
01:16:27,600 --> 01:16:28,920
Speaker 2: else completely.

1435
01:16:28,479 --> 01:16:30,160
Speaker 1: Now For the most point, I'm over it, But I

1436
01:16:30,160 --> 01:16:34,479
Speaker 1: mean I'm still interested in it and the truth crime

1437
01:16:34,520 --> 01:16:37,120
Speaker 1: things that I'm interested in. I just watched this one.

1438
01:16:37,160 --> 01:16:39,440
Speaker 1: You might have heard of it. They called it mostly Harmless.

1439
01:16:39,479 --> 01:16:42,880
Speaker 1: It's about a hiker. It's on Netflix. It's a great documentary.

1440
01:16:43,320 --> 01:16:47,519
Speaker 1: But that was you know, that was a body that

1441
01:16:47,560 --> 01:16:49,040
Speaker 1: had been out of the woods, and you know, the

1442
01:16:49,080 --> 01:16:54,920
Speaker 1: internet was trying to trying to identify him. So I'm

1443
01:16:54,920 --> 01:16:58,800
Speaker 1: interested in things that are like the investigation part. I

1444
01:16:58,840 --> 01:17:02,519
Speaker 1: don't want to read about or see horrible murders like

1445
01:17:02,560 --> 01:17:06,559
Speaker 1: the This is a joke between me and my husband

1446
01:17:06,920 --> 01:17:10,599
Speaker 1: that the true crime stories out watched are more like

1447
01:17:10,680 --> 01:17:13,880
Speaker 1: the husband wives killing each other short of thing rather

1448
01:17:13,960 --> 01:17:16,240
Speaker 1: than home invasions, because it's like, I know my husband

1449
01:17:16,280 --> 01:17:19,680
Speaker 1: slept and kill me, so I'm safe there. So I

1450
01:17:19,720 --> 01:17:22,320
Speaker 1: know that sounds terrible, but I just you.

1451
01:17:22,280 --> 01:17:26,639
Speaker 2: Know, it's you're just you're like justin. Yeah, it does

1452
01:17:26,680 --> 01:17:29,599
Speaker 2: to me too, because I would be like watching forensic

1453
01:17:29,640 --> 01:17:32,360
Speaker 2: files all the time. My husband's a firefighter and he

1454
01:17:32,360 --> 01:17:34,640
Speaker 2: doesn't sleep at home sometimes, and then I would be

1455
01:17:34,760 --> 01:17:38,160
Speaker 2: so freaking scared at night because I would be like, oh,

1456
01:17:38,160 --> 01:17:40,720
Speaker 2: my god, like I saw this case last week and

1457
01:17:40,760 --> 01:17:43,400
Speaker 2: the guy broke in the house and he didn't even

1458
01:17:43,439 --> 01:17:45,840
Speaker 2: know who she was, like something that I could say, Oh,

1459
01:17:45,880 --> 01:17:49,360
Speaker 2: that could happen to me exactly. And then I wouldn't sleep.

1460
01:17:49,400 --> 01:17:52,080
Speaker 2: I'd be up all night, like scared to death. I

1461
01:17:52,120 --> 01:17:55,040
Speaker 2: had even when they when the girls, my girls were younger,

1462
01:17:55,120 --> 01:17:56,960
Speaker 2: I would have them sleep in bed with me because

1463
01:17:56,960 --> 01:17:59,559
Speaker 2: I was so scared. And then I and then I

1464
01:17:59,600 --> 01:18:02,080
Speaker 2: was like I can't watch this stuff anymore. I just can't.

1465
01:18:02,560 --> 01:18:05,240
Speaker 2: I can't do it until he's retired. Maybe I'll start

1466
01:18:05,240 --> 01:18:05,960
Speaker 2: watching it again.

1467
01:18:06,040 --> 01:18:08,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't either. I'm with you there. It's like,

1468
01:18:08,439 --> 01:18:10,000
Speaker 1: like I said, I know it sounds Terrible's like's if

1469
01:18:10,000 --> 01:18:12,280
Speaker 1: it's a husband wife thing. You know that's you know

1470
01:18:12,520 --> 01:18:15,519
Speaker 1: that I can watch, but you know that I'll be

1471
01:18:15,560 --> 01:18:19,479
Speaker 1: gone in the dark. Do you like? That just terrified me.

1472
01:18:19,600 --> 01:18:23,080
Speaker 1: The the Golden State said, the Golden State Killer, the

1473
01:18:23,080 --> 01:18:24,760
Speaker 1: one that they identified through the genetic geno.

1474
01:18:24,920 --> 01:18:28,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, Michelle, Yeah, that one's really Yeah.

1475
01:18:28,520 --> 01:18:30,240
Speaker 1: That was Yeah, that was brutal.

1476
01:18:30,320 --> 01:18:33,559
Speaker 2: I wonder if it's like because for me and you,

1477
01:18:33,640 --> 01:18:36,639
Speaker 2: like I've been at the Medical Examiner's office and I've

1478
01:18:36,640 --> 01:18:39,719
Speaker 2: seen people, like with my own two eyes, multiple people

1479
01:18:39,720 --> 01:18:41,880
Speaker 2: that have been murdered. It's real for me and the

1480
01:18:41,920 --> 01:18:44,920
Speaker 2: same with you. You've seen all these skulls with people

1481
01:18:44,960 --> 01:18:46,800
Speaker 2: that have been killed. I wonder if it makes it

1482
01:18:46,840 --> 01:18:50,800
Speaker 2: even more scarier for us, because it's not just we're

1483
01:18:50,840 --> 01:18:55,280
Speaker 2: not some girl that works in the office and is

1484
01:18:55,360 --> 01:18:58,240
Speaker 2: watching this on TV and doesn't really know how horrible

1485
01:18:58,280 --> 01:19:00,880
Speaker 2: and gruesome it could be and how scared it is. Right,

1486
01:19:01,520 --> 01:19:03,440
Speaker 2: there's that element of the realness.

1487
01:19:03,479 --> 01:19:06,680
Speaker 1: Maybe I don't know what's really comical. This is this

1488
01:19:06,720 --> 01:19:08,720
Speaker 1: is this is funny? Is that you know I've been

1489
01:19:08,920 --> 01:19:10,679
Speaker 1: I've been to the Body of Barn and I've seen

1490
01:19:10,960 --> 01:19:13,880
Speaker 1: you know, horrible d comp and been right next to it,

1491
01:19:14,000 --> 01:19:18,240
Speaker 1: and you know that I can do it because it's

1492
01:19:18,240 --> 01:19:21,800
Speaker 1: fascinating and it was like it was interesting. But if

1493
01:19:21,840 --> 01:19:24,720
Speaker 1: there's this really bloody movie on TV, I can't watch it,

1494
01:19:25,439 --> 01:19:28,160
Speaker 1: like torture, Like I never watched Dempster and I knew

1495
01:19:28,160 --> 01:19:30,800
Speaker 1: they were bad guys. He's only torturing mad dies. But

1496
01:19:31,560 --> 01:19:34,679
Speaker 1: some stuff just it stays in my brain and I can't,

1497
01:19:35,560 --> 01:19:38,120
Speaker 1: you know, I can't get it out of my brain.

1498
01:19:38,360 --> 01:19:40,360
Speaker 1: I don't want that in my brain. Like at the

1499
01:19:40,439 --> 01:19:41,880
Speaker 1: if I can tell you this real quick, at the

1500
01:19:41,920 --> 01:19:46,360
Speaker 1: FBI Academy, they had in the behavioral Science unit, the

1501
01:19:46,439 --> 01:19:49,200
Speaker 1: one basically for the Silence of the Lands, that was

1502
01:19:49,240 --> 01:19:54,120
Speaker 1: that unit. So yeah, so yeah, so that's they're literally

1503
01:19:54,200 --> 01:19:58,040
Speaker 1: like three or four floors like the third or fourth basement.

1504
01:19:58,080 --> 01:20:03,040
Speaker 1: They're really down there. So they had the psychologists I

1505
01:20:03,080 --> 01:20:06,080
Speaker 1: was telling me about. She had all the drawings and

1506
01:20:06,160 --> 01:20:08,839
Speaker 1: notebooks of like set of sam like all the drawings

1507
01:20:08,880 --> 01:20:11,880
Speaker 1: they did so all these serial killers and all of

1508
01:20:11,920 --> 01:20:15,640
Speaker 1: their artwork, and she, you know, it was like a

1509
01:20:15,720 --> 01:20:17,760
Speaker 1: once in a lifetime thing because these things are not

1510
01:20:17,800 --> 01:20:20,080
Speaker 1: open to the public, and so she had them all

1511
01:20:20,080 --> 01:20:22,839
Speaker 1: out and she's explaining things, and it's like, I can't

1512
01:20:24,040 --> 01:20:27,040
Speaker 1: I can't have these drawings in my head because these

1513
01:20:27,080 --> 01:20:31,120
Speaker 1: men were drawing these things in prison, basically, you know,

1514
01:20:31,280 --> 01:20:34,519
Speaker 1: reliving the murders they had committed. And I don't want

1515
01:20:34,560 --> 01:20:37,320
Speaker 1: what was in their head in my head. I walked

1516
01:20:37,360 --> 01:20:40,800
Speaker 1: down the hallway we had a class. It was one

1517
01:20:40,800 --> 01:20:44,560
Speaker 1: of a facial facial imaging classes, and they were fascinated

1518
01:20:44,640 --> 01:20:48,160
Speaker 1: and I was like, I'm done. I don't don't want

1519
01:20:48,160 --> 01:20:48,639
Speaker 1: it in my head.

1520
01:20:50,680 --> 01:20:54,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I understand that, because I feel the same way

1521
01:20:54,080 --> 01:20:56,960
Speaker 2: about a lot of that. It's scared. Like when when

1522
01:20:56,960 --> 01:21:00,679
Speaker 2: that guy, the guy killed the college student in Idaho.

1523
01:21:00,800 --> 01:21:02,760
Speaker 1: Yes, I don't know if you've heard of it. Oh, yeah,

1524
01:21:02,760 --> 01:21:03,519
Speaker 1: I'm sure you've heard.

1525
01:21:03,400 --> 01:21:06,400
Speaker 2: About that case. It's just like I don't know when,

1526
01:21:06,720 --> 01:21:09,680
Speaker 2: especially it freaked me out when it happened. But then

1527
01:21:09,720 --> 01:21:13,679
Speaker 2: when they released his photo and video of him being arrested,

1528
01:21:13,760 --> 01:21:16,120
Speaker 2: his face like scared the shit out of me, Like

1529
01:21:16,160 --> 01:21:20,479
Speaker 2: his eyes are so creepy, and I just I just

1530
01:21:20,640 --> 01:21:23,799
Speaker 2: it like shook me. You know, I don't know these people,

1531
01:21:23,840 --> 01:21:25,960
Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know anything about it, but

1532
01:21:26,080 --> 01:21:30,720
Speaker 2: something about it I just was like, especially because, like

1533
01:21:30,760 --> 01:21:32,720
Speaker 2: you said, when it's a husband and wife, you could

1534
01:21:32,760 --> 01:21:34,639
Speaker 2: see they get in fights all the time and they

1535
01:21:34,800 --> 01:21:36,880
Speaker 2: and they kill each other in the passion. And but

1536
01:21:36,960 --> 01:21:40,960
Speaker 2: when it's strangers and people don't know that they're being

1537
01:21:41,000 --> 01:21:43,360
Speaker 2: stalked and all this stuff, it's just so scary to me.

1538
01:21:44,240 --> 01:21:49,599
Speaker 2: All Right, sing a little bit more cheery. Let's talk

1539
01:21:49,640 --> 01:21:51,960
Speaker 2: about your personal life. So you talked about your husband

1540
01:21:52,040 --> 01:21:55,360
Speaker 2: a couple of times. When so at what point of

1541
01:21:55,640 --> 01:21:59,840
Speaker 2: your whole career and transition from Navy and to FBI

1542
01:22:00,120 --> 01:22:02,960
Speaker 2: every end? John Hopkins too, when did you meet him?

1543
01:22:02,960 --> 01:22:05,519
Speaker 2: How'd you meet him? And when did you guys get married?

1544
01:22:06,560 --> 01:22:10,120
Speaker 1: Uh So, we met when I was waiting to go

1545
01:22:10,160 --> 01:22:12,720
Speaker 1: into the FBI. So it was a sure thing that

1546
01:22:12,760 --> 01:22:15,599
Speaker 1: I was, well, you know, I was going, I'm sorry,

1547
01:22:15,680 --> 01:22:19,200
Speaker 1: me start that over. We met when I was waiting

1548
01:22:19,200 --> 01:22:24,719
Speaker 1: to go on the FBI. I'm sorry, my brain, and

1549
01:22:24,920 --> 01:22:26,680
Speaker 1: we met and we actually met in person at the

1550
01:22:26,760 --> 01:22:30,400
Speaker 1: lunch and I I was recently divorced and so I

1551
01:22:30,520 --> 01:22:32,519
Speaker 1: was he and it was just like just friends, like

1552
01:22:32,600 --> 01:22:34,679
Speaker 1: I don't I don't want anything to do with men.

1553
01:22:34,720 --> 01:22:37,439
Speaker 1: I'm done, I'm done, i'm done, got my cat and

1554
01:22:37,479 --> 01:22:41,360
Speaker 1: I'm done, and you know, but we just started talking.

1555
01:22:41,520 --> 01:22:45,840
Speaker 1: It was like this guy's really just wonderful and we

1556
01:22:45,840 --> 01:22:48,560
Speaker 1: were we were friends, and then I just fell in

1557
01:22:48,600 --> 01:22:50,719
Speaker 1: love with a guy because he's amazing and he's wonderful

1558
01:22:50,760 --> 01:22:52,200
Speaker 1: and he's going to be embarrassed at this, but I

1559
01:22:52,240 --> 01:22:55,120
Speaker 1: don't care. So yeah, so.

1560
01:22:55,040 --> 01:22:59,360
Speaker 2: He how does he feel about what does he do

1561
01:22:59,479 --> 01:23:00,240
Speaker 2: for a living?

1562
01:23:01,000 --> 01:23:05,840
Speaker 1: Well, he uh, he's a he was ah and he's

1563
01:23:05,880 --> 01:23:10,639
Speaker 1: still doing it. A videographer and producer. So he worked.

1564
01:23:10,640 --> 01:23:13,040
Speaker 1: He also worked for the federal government, so he was

1565
01:23:13,120 --> 01:23:16,840
Speaker 1: he was making kind of like news stories, you know,

1566
01:23:16,920 --> 01:23:20,120
Speaker 1: things they would have a news channel sort of about

1567
01:23:20,120 --> 01:23:23,599
Speaker 1: in some of the the work and events that these

1568
01:23:23,640 --> 01:23:27,679
Speaker 1: military agencies would do. And he would go out. One time,

1569
01:23:27,680 --> 01:23:29,599
Speaker 1: Oh my god, he was on the back of an airplane.

1570
01:23:29,640 --> 01:23:32,519
Speaker 1: It was they had the back open and he was

1571
01:23:32,960 --> 01:23:35,439
Speaker 1: showing me video and he's like, why are the hardest on?

1572
01:23:35,520 --> 01:23:37,960
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm so, I'm so glad you didn't.

1573
01:23:38,200 --> 01:23:39,519
Speaker 1: He was like it was so cool. I missed lying

1574
01:23:39,520 --> 01:23:40,760
Speaker 1: on the back of this and it was open and

1575
01:23:40,800 --> 01:23:42,360
Speaker 1: all I have is a artist. I'm like, thank you

1576
01:23:42,479 --> 01:23:47,200
Speaker 1: very much. But yeah no, so yeah, I was like, oh,

1577
01:23:47,200 --> 01:23:51,400
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you only showed me up after Yeah. Yeah,

1578
01:23:51,640 --> 01:23:52,719
Speaker 1: So he's very creative.

1579
01:23:52,760 --> 01:23:57,080
Speaker 2: What's he think? Yeah, so that's cool to be because

1580
01:23:57,120 --> 01:23:59,880
Speaker 2: my husband's also very creative. It's good to like live

1581
01:24:00,120 --> 01:24:04,160
Speaker 2: a house that because sometimes I have like outrageous ideas,

1582
01:24:04,200 --> 01:24:06,519
Speaker 2: and you know, when you have an artist that's a

1583
01:24:06,600 --> 01:24:10,200
Speaker 2: husband too, then you can express those in your house

1584
01:24:10,320 --> 01:24:13,439
Speaker 2: or any they understand that you say, oh I completely

1585
01:24:13,439 --> 01:24:16,560
Speaker 2: hate this, I need to change it or whatever. He's

1586
01:24:16,600 --> 01:24:20,479
Speaker 2: how's he feel about you? Like knowing that you're you're

1587
01:24:20,680 --> 01:24:23,160
Speaker 2: handling human skulls all day at work and stuff. I

1588
01:24:23,200 --> 01:24:25,720
Speaker 2: mean he was just pretty cool with it obviously.

1589
01:24:26,080 --> 01:24:29,080
Speaker 1: Yeah. He was like, well, sometimes I would come home

1590
01:24:29,080 --> 01:24:30,559
Speaker 1: and say, oh my god, we got this one skull

1591
01:24:30,600 --> 01:24:33,639
Speaker 1: in our own you know, this is this one thing

1592
01:24:33,640 --> 01:24:36,240
Speaker 1: in this decomp by son. He's like, I want to know,

1593
01:24:36,320 --> 01:24:37,439
Speaker 1: Like I don't want to know, and I was like, no,

1594
01:24:37,479 --> 01:24:39,320
Speaker 1: it's really not fun, it's really not that cross and

1595
01:24:39,320 --> 01:24:41,840
Speaker 1: he's like no, no, like, don't tell me, don't topping.

1596
01:24:42,439 --> 01:24:44,800
Speaker 1: So it was funny. I can tell you this was

1597
01:24:44,880 --> 01:24:47,760
Speaker 1: this was funny one time somebody frown. We had one

1598
01:24:47,800 --> 01:24:51,320
Speaker 1: of the anthropologists fround a bodyth arm count and teaching

1599
01:24:51,400 --> 01:24:54,240
Speaker 1: our class and she had to transport some skulls in

1600
01:24:54,760 --> 01:24:56,759
Speaker 1: and she didn't want to leave them an air hotel overnight,

1601
01:24:56,960 --> 01:24:59,519
Speaker 1: so we had a because we had an alarm, So

1602
01:25:00,120 --> 01:25:01,760
Speaker 1: she said, can I store them at your house? I said, well,

1603
01:25:01,840 --> 01:25:03,920
Speaker 1: let me ask my husband. So I was like, how

1604
01:25:04,000 --> 01:25:06,760
Speaker 1: do you feel about having some human skulls in the den?

1605
01:25:07,320 --> 01:25:10,760
Speaker 1: And he was like, let me think about it. And

1606
01:25:10,800 --> 01:25:12,080
Speaker 1: then I was like that okay, and I said it

1607
01:25:12,160 --> 01:25:13,840
Speaker 1: won freeky out and he goes as long as you

1608
01:25:13,920 --> 01:25:16,640
Speaker 1: jump though, like you know, and like scare me with

1609
01:25:16,720 --> 01:25:19,519
Speaker 1: a skull. And after he said it and it's just

1610
01:25:19,720 --> 01:25:25,160
Speaker 1: really like my opening, he said, it's just that's just

1611
01:25:25,280 --> 01:25:27,439
Speaker 1: what you end up as you know. It wasn't spooky,

1612
01:25:27,479 --> 01:25:30,960
Speaker 1: it wasn't scary, it wasn't gross. It was just you're

1613
01:25:31,160 --> 01:25:34,760
Speaker 1: just you're just skulls in a box, you know. That's

1614
01:25:34,800 --> 01:25:38,240
Speaker 1: what we all end up, as you know. So yeah,

1615
01:25:38,360 --> 01:25:40,120
Speaker 1: he's he's had skulls in.

1616
01:25:40,160 --> 01:25:43,040
Speaker 2: His dead so it's like he's he probably has a

1617
01:25:43,120 --> 01:25:47,160
Speaker 2: bunch of like one liners of what husband hears this

1618
01:25:47,360 --> 01:25:51,360
Speaker 2: question from their wife? Can just store these ten skulls

1619
01:25:51,400 --> 01:25:53,720
Speaker 2: in our house overnight? Just cauld we put the alarm on.

1620
01:25:54,080 --> 01:25:57,400
Speaker 2: You don't care that there's like ten dead people downstairs

1621
01:25:57,439 --> 01:26:01,200
Speaker 2: while we're sleeping, right, Yeah, you can't be like that

1622
01:26:01,360 --> 01:26:04,559
Speaker 2: in this field, thinking there's ghosts and stuff. Yeah, exactly,

1623
01:26:04,720 --> 01:26:08,280
Speaker 2: Like what if you had like a reason, like I

1624
01:26:08,320 --> 01:26:09,960
Speaker 2: don't know, if fire or something in the middle of

1625
01:26:09,960 --> 01:26:12,120
Speaker 2: the night and they show up, they'd be like, what's

1626
01:26:12,200 --> 01:26:12,840
Speaker 2: happening here?

1627
01:26:13,240 --> 01:26:15,719
Speaker 1: Said? I promised they were aside from.

1628
01:26:17,320 --> 01:26:20,200
Speaker 2: I know, right, Yeah, so we know that you're not

1629
01:26:20,320 --> 01:26:24,240
Speaker 2: doing the forensic art anymore. But I mean you're an artist,

1630
01:26:24,320 --> 01:26:27,000
Speaker 2: So what are you doing? What are your other interests

1631
01:26:27,080 --> 01:26:30,439
Speaker 2: besides being interested in forensics? Like do you garden?

1632
01:26:30,600 --> 01:26:31,240
Speaker 1: Do you draw?

1633
01:26:31,400 --> 01:26:32,719
Speaker 2: Do you still do art and stuff?

1634
01:26:33,640 --> 01:26:37,480
Speaker 1: I am doing anything that's not a skull so right now, evantually,

1635
01:26:39,080 --> 01:26:41,040
Speaker 1: So don't tell my husband. No, I'm working on a

1636
01:26:41,080 --> 01:26:43,200
Speaker 1: painting right now, which is just new territory for me.

1637
01:26:43,320 --> 01:26:46,639
Speaker 1: I've tried to I just jumped into a big project

1638
01:26:46,840 --> 01:26:48,400
Speaker 1: and I'm not going to say exactly what it is

1639
01:26:48,439 --> 01:26:51,240
Speaker 1: because my husband's going to hear this and like, I

1640
01:26:51,320 --> 01:26:53,519
Speaker 1: want to be able to finish it. But I'm actually

1641
01:26:53,600 --> 01:26:59,080
Speaker 1: working on like a big thing, So I've anything that's

1642
01:26:59,240 --> 01:27:01,680
Speaker 1: I don't see. I don't like creepy stuff. I mean,

1643
01:27:01,720 --> 01:27:05,599
Speaker 1: I like some things in my cop you know there

1644
01:27:05,760 --> 01:27:08,840
Speaker 1: there's there's a there's a level of creepiness that I

1645
01:27:08,960 --> 01:27:13,120
Speaker 1: really like, but it depends. It's like I have to

1646
01:27:13,160 --> 01:27:16,600
Speaker 1: see it. So I like, I like humor and just

1647
01:27:16,720 --> 01:27:20,880
Speaker 1: like a little bit of creepiness. So that's hard to explain,

1648
01:27:21,360 --> 01:27:24,160
Speaker 1: but I like humor and art and I like something

1649
01:27:24,920 --> 01:27:27,439
Speaker 1: things that are surprising. So like you might look at

1650
01:27:27,640 --> 01:27:29,519
Speaker 1: look at a painting and go, oh, that's a really

1651
01:27:29,600 --> 01:27:31,800
Speaker 1: nice painting and you look really close and there's like

1652
01:27:32,280 --> 01:27:35,800
Speaker 1: a cows lying in the background, like obscurely. Just things

1653
01:27:35,840 --> 01:27:40,000
Speaker 1: that are silly or maybe a bit surreal that surrealism.

1654
01:27:40,360 --> 01:27:43,880
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm just I'm trying to figure out

1655
01:27:43,920 --> 01:27:46,680
Speaker 1: when I'm I'm trying to I'm figuring it out. It's

1656
01:27:46,800 --> 01:27:49,400
Speaker 1: this is a time where I get to I get

1657
01:27:49,479 --> 01:27:51,519
Speaker 1: frustrated because I'm like, I can't do this, I can't

1658
01:27:51,560 --> 01:27:54,400
Speaker 1: do that. My husband's like, this is the time where

1659
01:27:54,400 --> 01:27:56,720
Speaker 1: you get to play and do whatever. You want so

1660
01:27:57,120 --> 01:27:59,840
Speaker 1: just play and have fun. And so I'm like, okay,

1661
01:28:01,680 --> 01:28:03,840
Speaker 1: So after being so work boring and for so long

1662
01:28:03,920 --> 01:28:05,680
Speaker 1: where you have a deadline, it has to be done

1663
01:28:05,680 --> 01:28:08,160
Speaker 1: and it has to be right. It's like, this is artwork.

1664
01:28:08,200 --> 01:28:11,040
Speaker 1: You're allowed to god to big mistakes. You're allowed to

1665
01:28:11,360 --> 01:28:14,680
Speaker 1: a couple up faper through away. So that's what I'm

1666
01:28:14,760 --> 01:28:15,200
Speaker 1: learning now.

1667
01:28:17,160 --> 01:28:20,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, that it does seem like a weird transition to

1668
01:28:20,160 --> 01:28:22,360
Speaker 2: just turn it from what you were doing.

1669
01:28:23,200 --> 01:28:23,400
Speaker 1: It is.

1670
01:28:23,479 --> 01:28:25,599
Speaker 2: Well, thanks so much for being here with us today.

1671
01:28:26,080 --> 01:28:28,960
Speaker 2: Everyone needs to get your book. It's called Clay and

1672
01:28:29,040 --> 01:28:32,360
Speaker 2: Bones and it's available now. Do you have while you

1673
01:28:32,520 --> 01:28:35,800
Speaker 2: are going to reactivate your website? I hope, because I

1674
01:28:35,880 --> 01:28:37,960
Speaker 2: bet you a lot of people listening to this today

1675
01:28:38,880 --> 01:28:39,519
Speaker 2: are interested.

1676
01:28:40,479 --> 01:28:44,320
Speaker 1: You know I do. I do have a website. It's

1677
01:28:44,560 --> 01:28:47,960
Speaker 1: for the author website. I actually did rehost Things of Friends.

1678
01:28:48,000 --> 01:28:50,479
Speaker 1: It's a forensic one on one about how to how

1679
01:28:50,560 --> 01:28:52,519
Speaker 1: to become a friends of artist. So I actually did

1680
01:28:52,600 --> 01:28:56,519
Speaker 1: put that on my current site, my author's site. So

1681
01:28:57,000 --> 01:28:58,640
Speaker 1: I will put some things back up. That is the

1682
01:28:58,680 --> 01:29:00,400
Speaker 1: one thing I did put out because some wretch to

1683
01:29:00,400 --> 01:29:02,000
Speaker 1: me on Instagram says they want to be a friends

1684
01:29:02,040 --> 01:29:05,760
Speaker 1: of artists, and you know, she said, oh that in

1685
01:29:05,880 --> 01:29:07,519
Speaker 1: high school, I asked some friends of artists and they

1686
01:29:07,520 --> 01:29:09,240
Speaker 1: wouldn't give me the time of the day. I was like, well,

1687
01:29:09,360 --> 01:29:13,160
Speaker 1: I'm gonna put that on my website, so I did so. Yeah.

1688
01:29:13,920 --> 01:29:16,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, that that kind of stuff makes me mad when

1689
01:29:16,400 --> 01:29:19,200
Speaker 2: people aren't willing to help the next generation of people.

1690
01:29:19,520 --> 01:29:23,320
Speaker 1: My girlfriend here, do they have car? Oh well no,

1691
01:29:23,439 --> 01:29:25,680
Speaker 1: my girlfriend here she puts it. She's like, you know,

1692
01:29:25,840 --> 01:29:28,040
Speaker 1: women need to support women. And she's like, send the

1693
01:29:28,120 --> 01:29:30,519
Speaker 1: elevator back down when you make it to the top,

1694
01:29:31,120 --> 01:29:33,200
Speaker 1: hit the bottom of like help somebody else on their

1695
01:29:33,240 --> 01:29:36,560
Speaker 1: way up, you know. And it's like, yeah, like I

1696
01:29:37,600 --> 01:29:38,839
Speaker 1: don't understand exactly.

1697
01:29:39,040 --> 01:29:44,920
Speaker 2: I don't. Yeah, I don't either. That's it's it's really

1698
01:29:45,000 --> 01:29:47,519
Speaker 2: upsetting when I hear stuff like that. Do you think

1699
01:29:47,840 --> 01:29:50,280
Speaker 2: that there's college I mean, I don't even know anything

1700
01:29:50,320 --> 01:29:53,040
Speaker 2: about this, but I feel like there must be some

1701
01:29:53,200 --> 01:29:56,240
Speaker 2: kind of college programs at this point that are geared

1702
01:29:56,280 --> 01:29:57,600
Speaker 2: towards people that want to do.

1703
01:29:57,680 --> 01:29:59,880
Speaker 1: Stuff like for forensic ard. There really isn't. And let

1704
01:30:00,120 --> 01:30:02,439
Speaker 1: you create your own creat slam And I only know

1705
01:30:02,520 --> 01:30:04,240
Speaker 1: of one artist as far as you did that, and

1706
01:30:04,360 --> 01:30:08,360
Speaker 1: she her name is escaping me because she's wonderful. But

1707
01:30:08,640 --> 01:30:11,360
Speaker 1: she went to the University of Tennessee and so she

1708
01:30:11,600 --> 01:30:14,439
Speaker 1: created because it's the body of our she was able

1709
01:30:14,520 --> 01:30:19,360
Speaker 1: to create a forensic art program. And there's actually Friends

1710
01:30:19,400 --> 01:30:22,799
Speaker 1: of Art master's program, and I think Dundee Scotland or something,

1711
01:30:23,640 --> 01:30:27,040
Speaker 1: which I'm sure was a wonderful program, But there's because

1712
01:30:27,080 --> 01:30:31,320
Speaker 1: of the nature of friends of art, there's no it's

1713
01:30:31,360 --> 01:30:34,880
Speaker 1: not like being a doctor or something where you need

1714
01:30:34,960 --> 01:30:37,160
Speaker 1: to have certain credentials and a piece of paper that

1715
01:30:37,880 --> 01:30:40,040
Speaker 1: you are now you know you are now in friends

1716
01:30:40,080 --> 01:30:43,080
Speaker 1: of artists, that doesn't that doesn't exist in friends of art.

1717
01:30:44,040 --> 01:30:47,679
Speaker 1: It's just one of those jobs that for in most

1718
01:30:47,960 --> 01:30:50,479
Speaker 1: for most friends of artists, most friends of artists work

1719
01:30:50,479 --> 01:30:54,840
Speaker 1: in law enforcement agencies like state sheriff's office, you know,

1720
01:30:55,000 --> 01:30:57,800
Speaker 1: count of city police, things like that, and they're mostly

1721
01:30:57,880 --> 01:31:02,400
Speaker 1: doing composites and it's an adjunct it's a collateral duty.

1722
01:31:02,920 --> 01:31:06,639
Speaker 1: So it would be friends of artist's shonage. It would

1723
01:31:06,680 --> 01:31:13,080
Speaker 1: be just too narrow a pool to have a college program,

1724
01:31:13,360 --> 01:31:15,559
Speaker 1: I believe, And there's just not the jobs.

1725
01:31:16,240 --> 01:31:19,479
Speaker 2: And that's something that's something important to say too, because

1726
01:31:19,479 --> 01:31:21,479
Speaker 2: you were saying you only worked with a few people

1727
01:31:21,640 --> 01:31:22,559
Speaker 2: right that did your job.

1728
01:31:22,720 --> 01:31:25,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the full time positions. And I believe

1729
01:31:26,040 --> 01:31:29,040
Speaker 1: this is on this is in my post on my website,

1730
01:31:29,560 --> 01:31:32,360
Speaker 1: is that the full time friends of artists there are

1731
01:31:32,479 --> 01:31:35,559
Speaker 1: various few, maybe under fifty. Nobody really knows. Not many.

1732
01:31:36,640 --> 01:31:40,559
Speaker 1: We work at the state, et cetera level. So those

1733
01:31:40,600 --> 01:31:42,719
Speaker 1: are like where the full time friends of art positions

1734
01:31:42,760 --> 01:31:46,080
Speaker 1: are the other friends of art positions, Like you said,

1735
01:31:46,120 --> 01:31:50,160
Speaker 1: they're collateral duties. They're done by people in law enforcement, detectives,

1736
01:31:50,240 --> 01:31:53,680
Speaker 1: crime scene texts, whatever. A person in law enforcement who

1737
01:31:53,720 --> 01:31:56,840
Speaker 1: had artistic talent and their boss said, hey, you can draw,

1738
01:31:57,760 --> 01:31:59,720
Speaker 1: You're going to be our friends of artists down or

1739
01:32:00,000 --> 01:32:02,280
Speaker 1: they had the gumption to say, and I want to

1740
01:32:02,320 --> 01:32:06,719
Speaker 1: do composite sketches, and they create the job. It's there's

1741
01:32:06,760 --> 01:32:08,880
Speaker 1: no money in law enforcement. There's no money to hire

1742
01:32:08,960 --> 01:32:11,400
Speaker 1: friends of artists. So it's one of these collateral duties

1743
01:32:11,439 --> 01:32:14,400
Speaker 1: where somebody who is very motivated, and this is usually

1744
01:32:14,400 --> 01:32:16,920
Speaker 1: where it happens. You have a motivated person in law

1745
01:32:16,960 --> 01:32:19,000
Speaker 1: enforcement who can drow that says this is what I

1746
01:32:19,080 --> 01:32:21,760
Speaker 1: want to do, and they volunteer their services as need

1747
01:32:21,840 --> 01:32:26,280
Speaker 1: that they're not get extra. They do it because they have.

1748
01:32:26,520 --> 01:32:32,000
Speaker 2: It's really important to note because it's like, because I

1749
01:32:32,360 --> 01:32:35,680
Speaker 2: feel like I'm an artist too, and it's a scientist too.

1750
01:32:36,200 --> 01:32:38,920
Speaker 2: I feel like I would be actually interested in that

1751
01:32:39,240 --> 01:32:42,519
Speaker 2: to that kind of job and just but people need

1752
01:32:42,600 --> 01:32:46,680
Speaker 2: to understand that you really have to kind of make

1753
01:32:46,760 --> 01:32:49,200
Speaker 2: it happen for yourself in a way. It's not as

1754
01:32:49,320 --> 01:32:51,519
Speaker 2: easy as just going to school to be a nurse,

1755
01:32:51,760 --> 01:32:54,840
Speaker 2: go to school, get a job, get high exactly, although

1756
01:32:54,920 --> 01:32:56,880
Speaker 2: they have to be good too, it's just in a

1757
01:32:56,960 --> 01:32:59,720
Speaker 2: different it's in a different kind of way. And it's

1758
01:33:00,320 --> 01:33:03,320
Speaker 2: it's the same could be said like every every painter

1759
01:33:03,680 --> 01:33:08,160
Speaker 2: isn't going to be Pocrasso, right, Like, yeah, it's just

1760
01:33:08,400 --> 01:33:09,360
Speaker 2: it's just the way it is.

1761
01:33:09,520 --> 01:33:11,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it just it just pains me when

1762
01:33:11,640 --> 01:33:12,720
Speaker 1: you know, I hear people they want to be a

1763
01:33:12,800 --> 01:33:15,120
Speaker 1: friends of artists and you know they're they're taking classes,

1764
01:33:15,200 --> 01:33:17,760
Speaker 1: like you know, there's lots of commercial classes out there.

1765
01:33:17,840 --> 01:33:20,080
Speaker 1: It's like, well, that's great if you want to you know,

1766
01:33:20,120 --> 01:33:21,760
Speaker 1: if you want to learn about it and everything. But

1767
01:33:23,320 --> 01:33:26,639
Speaker 1: it's just there's no jobs. There's very very few jobs,

1768
01:33:27,000 --> 01:33:30,280
Speaker 1: and the vast majority of them are in law enforcement.

1769
01:33:30,400 --> 01:33:34,000
Speaker 1: I've got grief for this, but it's the truth because

1770
01:33:34,880 --> 01:33:37,519
Speaker 1: skulls are evidence of composite drawing is evidence. You're dealing

1771
01:33:37,560 --> 01:33:42,920
Speaker 1: with evidence. So it's only that that's out. It is

1772
01:33:43,000 --> 01:33:47,160
Speaker 1: what it is, you know. It's sorry. Yeah. So, but

1773
01:33:47,920 --> 01:33:50,600
Speaker 1: someone that's motivated, some with artistic skill, they can be

1774
01:33:50,800 --> 01:33:54,360
Speaker 1: in in academia. Is anything that might cross pass this

1775
01:33:54,479 --> 01:33:57,400
Speaker 1: law enforcement, you would have the potential to be able

1776
01:33:57,439 --> 01:34:00,320
Speaker 1: to do like a facial approximation. It's if you work

1777
01:34:00,360 --> 01:34:03,639
Speaker 1: at a university and you're in anatomy or anthropology. Guess

1778
01:34:03,680 --> 01:34:06,400
Speaker 1: what if you put forth the athlete, you could probably

1779
01:34:06,439 --> 01:34:13,760
Speaker 1: do some facial approximations for the medical examiner. It's completely possible. Absolutely. Yeah,

1780
01:34:13,840 --> 01:34:14,679
Speaker 1: that's great advice.

1781
01:34:15,200 --> 01:34:17,600
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Again, it was awesome talking to you.

1782
01:34:18,240 --> 01:34:20,080
Speaker 1: This is a thrill. This is great.

1783
01:34:25,880 --> 01:34:29,679
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to mother nos death. As a reminder,

1784
01:34:29,920 --> 01:34:33,640
Speaker 2: my training is as a pathologist's assistant. I have a

1785
01:34:33,760 --> 01:34:38,080
Speaker 2: master's level education and specialize in anatomy and pathology education.

1786
01:34:39,240 --> 01:34:41,400
Speaker 2: I am not a doctor, and I have not diagnosed

1787
01:34:41,479 --> 01:34:45,080
Speaker 2: or treated anyone dead or alive without the assistance of

1788
01:34:45,160 --> 01:34:50,320
Speaker 2: a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, and social

1789
01:34:50,400 --> 01:34:53,920
Speaker 2: media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based

1790
01:34:53,960 --> 01:34:57,840
Speaker 2: on my experience working in pathology, so they can make

1791
01:34:58,080 --> 01:35:02,719
Speaker 2: healthier decisions regarding their life and well Beeing. Always remember

1792
01:35:02,800 --> 01:35:05,879
Speaker 2: that science is changing every day, and the opinions expressed

1793
01:35:05,920 --> 01:35:08,519
Speaker 2: in this episode are based on my knowledge of those

1794
01:35:08,600 --> 01:35:12,360
Speaker 2: subjects at the time of publication. If you are having

1795
01:35:12,439 --> 01:35:16,360
Speaker 2: a medical problem, have a medical question, or having a

1796
01:35:16,439 --> 01:35:20,760
Speaker 2: medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit an urgent

1797
01:35:20,840 --> 01:35:25,519
Speaker 2: care center, emergency room, or hospital. Please rate, review, and

1798
01:35:25,640 --> 01:35:30,120
Speaker 2: subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or

1799
01:35:30,240 --> 01:35:32,559
Speaker 2: anywhere you get podcasts. Thanks