1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,320 Speaker 1: To be a journalist. It is like a working class job. 2 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:05,120 Speaker 1: You have to get your fingers dirty. If you really 3 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: do journalism right, you have to be out there with 4 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:08,799 Speaker 1: the people. It shouldn't be reserved just for people who 5 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: have fancy degrees. 6 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 2: You've landed some interviews at drop Site that a lot 7 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 2: of people in the media would be envious though interviewing somebody, 8 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:16,280 Speaker 2: let's say that's. 9 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: Hy uk In Hamas journalists should have an ethical obligation 10 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:22,759 Speaker 1: go and interview those people and to tell their readers 11 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 1: back in their home country what the objective reality looks 12 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: like on the ground. Our job is not to get 13 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: Kamala Harris elected, you know. Our job was not to 14 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:35,239 Speaker 1: get Barack Obama elected. Our job is to hold politicians accountable, 15 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: regardless of which party they're a member of. People are saying, oh, 16 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: what are you doing. You're gonna help Trump. No, we're 17 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: going to help the public to have a real understanding, 18 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 1: and I think we have to. We have an obligation 19 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: to point that out and not just treat it as 20 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: you know, Orange Hitler is coming back into. 21 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:53,240 Speaker 3: Power today on Counterpoints were joined by my colleague at 22 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 3: drop Site News, Jeremy Skhill, which is part of our 23 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 3: kind of ongoing series of getting to know in the 24 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,279 Speaker 3: Pennant journalists better, how they got into journalism, how they 25 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 3: how they approached their craft. If people missed our long 26 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 3: interview with Matt Taibi, that was a fun one. Oh 27 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 3: there were times during that interview where I kind of 28 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 3: forgot the cameras were rolling. 29 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:14,960 Speaker 4: Can be dangerous, but it's good, Like that's what you want. 30 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 4: That's the best interview. 31 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, it is, so, Jeremy. Welcome to Washington, d C. 32 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 3: You don't get here very often, so it's nice to 33 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 3: see you in person. 34 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:23,679 Speaker 5: Try to avoid it at all. 35 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 4: Don't blame you. 36 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:29,040 Speaker 3: So you guys were both just talking about your shared 37 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 3: Wisconsinant upbringings. Shared a lot of similarities, seems like both 38 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 3: both from the Catholic families with any social justice leftyism 39 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 3: in back in your Wisconsin family. 40 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 2: So my dad has is from a Catholic family in Watosa, 41 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 2: and there's seven of them, so in there, I think, 42 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 2: just in the mixt Yeah, absolutely, I didn't grow up Catholic, 43 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 2: but yeah. 44 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 5: I did, but you know, I mean Milwaukee. 45 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: I I grew up in an interesting household because my 46 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: my dad was very nearly a priest, you know, my 47 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: mother prevented that and also the Vietnam War. I mean, 48 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: he he grew up. His parents were Irish immigrants, you know, 49 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 1: came to the US as teenagers, and you know, he 50 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,079 Speaker 1: had two sisters and the he was the only boy, 51 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:14,399 Speaker 1: and it's like, okay, you're going to be a priest. 52 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: So I think for much of his life he thought 53 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: he was going to end up being a Jesuit priest. 54 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: And he got politicized by the Catholic left at the 55 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: you know, sort of at the height of the Vietnam War. 56 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: He he tells the story of seeing Dorothy Day, the 57 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: founder of the Catholic Worker movement, who's up for beatification 58 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: right now and in fact may may become the first 59 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: saint known to have had an abortion. But he was 60 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 1: really you know, because he grew up in this Irish 61 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 1: Catholic family. The kind of weaving in scriptural reference to 62 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:47,839 Speaker 1: opposition against war really you know, took hold of him 63 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: and he sort of altered his path in life. 64 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 5: And he ends up going to New York City and 65 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:53,079 Speaker 5: moving into. 66 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: The Catholic Worker house with Dorothy Day dad this is 67 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: my dad, Yeah, And you know, so he was there 68 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: and actually he when he was there, it was like 69 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 1: about ten years after the Cuban Revolution, and there was 70 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: a very kind of close relationship between the Catholic Worker 71 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: Movement and the Cuban Revolution. Although the Catholic Worker Movement 72 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: was an anarchist pacifist movement. So Dorothy Day had gone 73 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 1: to Cuba many times, was a supporter of the Cuban Revolution, 74 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: but critical of the methods used in the It was 75 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: a violent revolution. And you know, my dad was just 76 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: a kid from the South Side of Chicago, and you know, 77 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: he had never really been anywhere, and Dorothy Day asked 78 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: him if he wanted to go to the harvest of 79 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: ten million tons. In nineteen seventy one, my dad went 80 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: on the second venceer Ramo's brigade to Cuba and he 81 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 1: spent a couple of months cutting sugarcane and he meets 82 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: you know, remember this is you know, the height of 83 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: Vietnam War, civil rights movement, the Black Panther Party, and 84 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: what had happened is that Fidel Castro had issued this 85 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: call to young people and revolutionaries around the world to 86 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: come to Cuba, and my dad took a bus from 87 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: New York City to Mexico City, and you know, he 88 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: was on the bus also with like supporters of the 89 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: Weather Underground and you know, people who were part of 90 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: sort of movements in the US that were on the 91 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: hard left of the movement. So he goes down there 92 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:17,239 Speaker 1: and he ends up writing an article about the Cuban Revolution, 93 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 1: defending the Cuban Revolution. It was called up from Nonviolence, 94 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 1: and it was grappling with how how can you be 95 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 1: an American pacifist, a Catholic and believe that you have 96 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:30,280 Speaker 1: some moral authority to stand in judgment over the people 97 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: who felt that they needed to take up arms to 98 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: confront a dictatorship of Fulgencio Batista and remove it when 99 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:40,280 Speaker 1: Americans had failed to prevent their own government or stop 100 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: their own government from propping up these kinds of dictatorships 101 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 1: and entities. 102 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 5: In Latin America. 103 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 1: And that altered his life, and he ended up deciding 104 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:49,840 Speaker 1: to become a nurse actually because he wanted to work. 105 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:52,279 Speaker 1: There was a big believer in the Sermon on the Mountain, 106 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: you know, and took it very seriously. So he spent 107 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 1: he and my mother both were nurses and spent their 108 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: whole life working, you know, in hospitals and clinics. 109 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 2: And well, it sounds like it actually may have altered 110 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 2: your life as well, huge impact, massively influential, and maybe 111 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:07,280 Speaker 2: a good way to get into that, I don't know 112 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 2: if you have other questions to start, Ryan, is like 113 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 2: the influence of social justice Catholicism on the Democratic Party 114 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 2: is literally waning in the figure of Joe Biden right 115 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 2: now in the White House, somebody who invokes a lot 116 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 2: of those sentiments often but is basically alone in it, 117 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 2: is not entirely serious about it, and the way that 118 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 2: a lot of radicals were during the period of the 119 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 2: Vietnam War. So tell us a little bit about how 120 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 2: that influenced you and where you've kind of seen it 121 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 2: go over the arc of your career. 122 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 5: Yeah. 123 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: You know, one other thing that relates to this about 124 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: Milwaukee is it's also the home of one of the 125 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: most prominent white civil rights priests in the United States 126 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 1: at the time, father James Grappi, who then left the 127 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:47,479 Speaker 1: priesthood and ended up becoming a union organizer with the 128 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: bus drivers, and he actually drove a bus himself in 129 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: the city of Milwaukee. And there, you know, as you know, 130 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 1: also there were there were a string of socialist mayors 131 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,679 Speaker 1: in Milwaukee, Frank Zeidler, you know, perhaps the most famous 132 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:01,160 Speaker 1: among them. And you know, you as a kid, you 133 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: grow up and you aren't you think your parents are boring, 134 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: and you know, it's. 135 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 5: Like I just knew. 136 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 1: In fact, I actually had a lot of interactions with 137 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 1: kids at school who, you know, would make fun of 138 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: the fact when they would say, what do your parents do? 139 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 5: And I would say, my parents were both nurses, your 140 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:15,039 Speaker 5: dad is a nurse. 141 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,040 Speaker 1: You know, is this sort of you know, thing of 142 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 1: having to grapple with the fact that my dad was 143 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: a male and he was I was a nurse. But 144 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: you know, I think it was probably when I was 145 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 1: around maybe like ten or eleven years old, I started 146 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: to realize that there was some you know, my dad 147 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: was telling these stories about another part of his life, 148 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: and I finally stopped being a knucklehead and started saying, like, 149 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: what was that about? And you know, our house was 150 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: filled with all of these books from you know, all 151 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: kinds of revolutionaries, violent, nonviolent social justice writings, and yeah, 152 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: we grew up, but it wasn't so much like my 153 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: parents were not the kind of people who would drill 154 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: these things into your head. It was more watching how 155 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: they treated other people, you know, and you know, there 156 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: was this spirit, you know, it's particularly with my dad, 157 00:06:57,200 --> 00:06:59,839 Speaker 1: of just servitude to others, and you know, and I 158 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: think that when you grow up in a house where 159 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:04,919 Speaker 1: you see your parents treating other people with dignity, and 160 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 1: then you start to put that together with injustice in 161 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: the world, it you know, you get set on a path. 162 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: And so I think it wasn't that my parents like 163 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: trained me to be anything. They just they had an example. 164 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: And then when I expressed interest in it, I started 165 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 1: to realize there's layers behind it that are not just 166 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 1: about personal values, but are political values also. 167 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 4: So what's the path there? Then into journalism? 168 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 2: Oh? 169 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 5: I mean, you know it's funny, is I was. 170 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: I was never a good academic student, but I was 171 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: a voracious reader. And you know, I remember when I 172 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: when I left high school, it was you know, I 173 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: was having trouble getting at any university. I did get 174 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: into a university, but I just I really my guidance 175 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: counselor in school said that I should consider, you know, 176 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: maybe being an electrician or a plumber going to trade school. 177 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: And I found that so offensive at the time, But 178 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 1: I was wrong. And actually the guidance counselor was right. 179 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: I needed to go into a trade. 180 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 5: You know. The university wasn't you know what I didn't. 181 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 5: I didn't feel comfortable there. 182 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: It wasn't because I wasn't thirsty for knowledge. 183 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 5: I was. 184 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: It was that the way that the schools were structured 185 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 1: just didn't speak to me as a person. And you know, 186 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: my dad wrote this letter to me before I went 187 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: to you know, off to college which I would then 188 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: drop out of, that said, don't let school get in 189 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: the way of your education. 190 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 5: And you know, and I I to this day I 191 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 5: think about that. 192 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: But what happened is that so I was at the 193 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:22,679 Speaker 1: University of Wisconsin, I was on academic probation. 194 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 5: I you know, I was. I was certainly not. 195 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 6: Freeing books are having too much fun. 196 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:31,679 Speaker 5: I was a mixture of both. But you know, really 197 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 5: I would, I would. It was funny when I would would, 198 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 5: I would actually do the work, like at a history course. 199 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 5: I would. 200 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: I would get you know, pretty good grades. But it 201 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: was more that I was so I was involved with 202 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 1: everything else. I was involved with the newspaper and activist causes, 203 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: and you know, and in ninety I believe it was 204 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety five, we staged a huge sit in 205 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: at the administrative buildings at the University of Wisconsin. A 206 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: mother Jones named us one of the top activist campuses 207 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: in the country, and I was one of the students. 208 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 5: That coordinated that. 209 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: It had to do with the university's treatment of homeless 210 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: people who were living around the campus and the way 211 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: they wanted to eject them. But also I watched how 212 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: as when students were trying to get their professors to 213 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:09,079 Speaker 1: kind of join them, there was a lot of cowardice, 214 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 1: and the professors would preach a kind of social justice 215 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 1: gospel in this liberal hamlet in medicine. But then when 216 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: students would say, hey, can you join us, you know 217 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: on the line, it was hard to get them to 218 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:20,560 Speaker 1: do it. So, for a combination of reasons, I ended 219 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: up leaving the university and hitchhiped out to Washington, d C. 220 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:28,559 Speaker 1: And I moved into the nation's largest homeless shelter at 221 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: the time, which was the Community for Creative Nonviolence, just 222 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 1: a few blocks from the from the Capitol. And when 223 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 1: I was When I was there, a lot of what 224 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: I was doing was mopping floors, cleaning toilets, taking you know, 225 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: guys to doctor's appointments. You know, the number of veterans 226 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: who were homeless was stunning to me. But I listened 227 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 1: to a lot of talk radio, and you know my 228 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 1: walkman for you know, younger people may not know it, 229 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: but it's sort of like you know when you're listening 230 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: to music or on your on your iPhone. But I 231 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:55,439 Speaker 1: would had this, like, you know, I had my headphones 232 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 1: and my little walkman because I would be just waiting 233 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 1: all day or cleaning. And I heard this woman on 234 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:05,199 Speaker 1: the radio who was confronting then Speaker of the House, 235 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 1: Nute Gingrich, and confronting him over the Contract with America 236 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: and his agenda about women. And if you remember at 237 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 1: the time Gingrich, Gingrich's mother had been interviewed. This is 238 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: in the mid nineteen nineties. Gingrich's mother had been interviewed 239 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: by Connie Chung, who was then one of the most 240 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: famous news people in America, and she had said, Kanyie 241 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 1: Chung had asked her, what did your mother think? What 242 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 1: does your mother think of First Lady Hillary Clinton? And 243 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 1: they talked about it, Well, what does Nut Gingrich, your 244 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: son think of First Lady? Oh, I can't say it. 245 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: You know, she said, I can't say the word, and 246 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: you know, one of them said, does it rhyme with which? 247 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 5: And it's yes. 248 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:44,199 Speaker 1: So I heard this journalist confronting new Gingrich. Remember he 249 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: had the Daily Speakers press briefing, so and so this 250 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: journalist confronts him about it and he gets completely flustered 251 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: and she says, so are you saying. 252 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 5: That your mother is a liar? 253 00:10:57,640 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 6: Qunnie? 254 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,559 Speaker 1: And that was the last Daily Speaker briefing that knew 255 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 1: Gingrid Shid And the journalist who was questioning him was 256 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 1: Amy Goodman, who would you know, would then go on 257 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 1: to become the founding host of Democracy Now. And the 258 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: Washington Post headline at the time was something like Gingrich 259 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 1: can't ditch bitch comment, But it was I had never 260 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: heard someone with that kind of like backbone to merity 261 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: taking on this incredibly powerful person. And then I started 262 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: like seeking out, what is this PACIFICA radio? I started 263 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: listening to it. 264 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 3: And then when at the time, was she like the 265 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 3: congressional correspondent or the was Washington correspondent for PACIFICA or something? 266 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 5: Yeah, she was. She was one of the most important 267 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 5: figures at their news division. 268 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 4: And you know, she was also a foreign correspondent then too. 269 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 1: She had Yeah, i mean, Amy Goodman is her whole 270 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:40,680 Speaker 1: life story is really extraordinary. But she had been Yeah, 271 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 1: she's I mean, she has a really interesting She's also 272 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 1: an extraordinary baker by the way, and she had a 273 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: whole other life too where she was. 274 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 5: Yeah, she worked in a bakery. 275 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: But you know, but Amy Goodman had in the early 276 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: nineteen nineties, she had gone to East Tmoor when it 277 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 1: was still under the control of Indonesia with the journalists 278 00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: that I consider one of the most important mentors in 279 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 1: my life, an investigativejournalist named Alan Nairn. The two of 280 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: them were in East Timor. Pope John Paul the second, 281 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 1: was going to be visiting there largely Catholic population, you know, 282 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 1: in this former territory of Indonesia that was under a 283 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:20,079 Speaker 1: mass extermination campaign from a US armed and funded Indonesian military. 284 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 1: And they went there ahead of the Pope's visit because 285 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 1: the people of East team were felt that if the 286 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 1: Pope comes, their plight was going to be made clear 287 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: to the world, that it would you know, the when 288 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:33,959 Speaker 1: powerful people come somewhere, then the media comes. So the 289 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: way but the way that the Indonesian regime responded to 290 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: local people was to was to commit a horrific series 291 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 1: of massacres, the most famous of which was called the 292 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 1: Dilly Massacre. And Amy and Allen were there and watched 293 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: scores of people being gunned down with USM sixteens and 294 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: they were themselves beaten almost to death. Alan skull was 295 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: cracked open. And both of them believed that they pulled 296 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: out their American passports and we're pleading with there would 297 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: be murderers, assassins to spare them. And and Amy and 298 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 1: Allen both have said that they believe that the Indonesian 299 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: soldiers realized that the guns in their hands were from 300 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 1: the United States and that they there would be a 301 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: consequence for killing people with a passport of the nation 302 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: that is providing them with the support and the guns. 303 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 1: And so they lived, and they survived, and because of 304 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: the two of them and a handful of others, the 305 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: world understood what was happening in East Timoor. And you know, 306 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,560 Speaker 1: when East Timor became an independent country, they were both 307 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 1: given credit by the new leaders of the country for 308 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: for having been crucial to the independence of East Teamoor. 309 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 4: And so you start, you start, so. 310 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: She had to decide whether to get like to let 311 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 1: me volunteer or get a restraining order against me. You know, 312 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: I would actually send her like real letters and I 313 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 1: would go to all of her events, and it's always wild. 314 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 2: They were like magazine cutout letters. 315 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 5: And I sign my actual my actual name. But what 316 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 5: I was also doing at the time, I I I lived. 317 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 1: I moved to this community in Baltimore called Jonah House, 318 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: and I lived with the late father Philip Brigan and 319 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 1: his wife Liz McAllister. And Jonah House was a was 320 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 1: a community of resistance but also of service, rooted in, 321 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 1: you know, in Catholic liberation theology. And for people that 322 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 1: don't know, Philip and Daniel Berrigan were the two organizers 323 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: of an action in nineteen sixty eight known as the 324 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: Catonsville Nine. And they what they did is these were 325 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 1: two Catholic priests at the time, Daniel Bragan. They're both priests, brothers, 326 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: Philip and Daniel. Daniel Berrigan was a well known author 327 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: and poet and a significant voice opposed to the war 328 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 1: in Vietnam. But they didn't want to just be involved 329 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: with kind of you know, abstract theology. They wanted to 330 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: take action, and so they organized a raid on a 331 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 1: draft house in Catonsville, Maryland in May of nineteen sixty 332 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: eight that had hundreds of A one draft files that 333 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: were being used to send Americans young Americans war in Vietnam. 334 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: And so, in the middle of a workday, these two 335 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: Catholic priests and their seven comrades go into this draft 336 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: house in Catonsville, Maryland with little metal garbage bins, and 337 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: they proceed to take out the draft files and right 338 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: in front of the clerks of the of the house 339 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: and put them into this garbage bin. They bring them 340 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: into the parking lot of the Catonsville Draft House and 341 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: they burn them with homemade napalm. And they had made 342 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: the napalm because of the US Army Field Manual that 343 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 1: had been made public. And the opening line of their 344 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 1: you know, just a protest against the war in Vietnam. 345 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 1: The opening line of the statement of the Catonsville Nine 346 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: that Daniel Berrigan wrote was our apologies, good friends, for 347 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: the fracture of good order, the burning of paper instead 348 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: of children, you know. 349 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 5: Like. 350 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: And so so I lived with Phil Brigan, and you know, 351 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: they they said, if you want to follow Jesus, you 352 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: have to look good on wood and so you know, 353 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 1: they both spent considerable amount of time in and out 354 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: of prison. 355 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 6: So you're then you're at Democracy Now well as. 356 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: I was at Jonah House and then, but we would 357 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: listen to the radio every day. Still I was still 358 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: stocking Amy Goodman. I then moved to the Catholic Worker 359 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: in New York, in part because I knew Amy Goodman 360 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 1: was there and Democracy Now was there. And to make 361 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: a very long story short, Amy Goodman made the mistake 362 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: of coming to do a story about an art exhibit 363 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: about the life of Dorothy Day that I had helped 364 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: organize with some friends. 365 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 5: And I went up to it. 366 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm the guy who's been writing you, and 367 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 1: it's like literally like I know this too when I speak. Yeah, 368 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: she was sort of looking like I'd wish I had 369 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: a security guard here, but she actually then agreed and said, Okay, 370 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 1: we can try it for one day, and I went 371 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: into the old studios of WBAI in New York across 372 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: from Madison Square Garden and sort of that was the 373 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 1: beginning of my life as a as a as a journalist, 374 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 1: and Amy taught me how to edit. She was an 375 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: incredible editor of audio tape, like the old reel to 376 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 1: reels where you would cut it with an actual razor blade. 377 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: So she taught me how to do that because she 378 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: was a master at it, and I became pretty proficient 379 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: at editing, and other journalists would ask me to edit 380 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: their stories. And that's so to go back to the 381 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: very beginning of our conversation, my guidance conselor said you 382 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 1: should go into you know, look, look at a trade. 383 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 1: I ended up doing that. The trade was journalism. And 384 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,159 Speaker 1: that's always what I tell young people too. You know, 385 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 1: I'm almost fifty years old, and you know, it's hard 386 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 1: to think of myself as being that old. But like 387 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 1: I often tell young people, it's, you know, to be 388 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 1: a journalist, it's it is like a working class job. 389 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: You have to get your fingers dirty. If you really 390 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 1: do journalism right, you have to be out there with 391 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: the people. And it's not it shouldn't be reserved just 392 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: for people who have fancy degrees. 393 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 2: Journalism as activism and journalism as social justice activism. It 394 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:36,679 Speaker 2: seems to me that a lot of people that go 395 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 2: through that pipeline now are hyper educated. They have master's degrees. 396 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 2: They all live and they come from similar backgrounds. They 397 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:45,400 Speaker 2: actually tend to come from upper middle class backgrounds. 398 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 6: It's not to say. 399 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 2: Everyone, but it's become really different than it was in 400 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 2: the past. And wanted to get your take as somebody 401 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 2: who's been sort of through all these different steps from 402 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,640 Speaker 2: democracy now to the intercept to drop site of how 403 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:00,159 Speaker 2: that has perhaps influenced the way that the media it 404 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 2: talks about social justice. 405 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think and it's a great question and issue. 406 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 1: I also think though that what you know, you can 407 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: come you can come at journalism from a number of 408 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 1: different pathways, and I certainly came at it from you know, 409 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: a kind of social justice activist perspective mixed in with 410 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 1: sort of liberation theology. But you you then there's a 411 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: point at which you have to learn the actual trade 412 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:24,719 Speaker 1: of journalism, and you know and the and and that 413 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:28,159 Speaker 1: facts matter, that context matter, that you know that history 414 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 1: actually matters. So you know that that's really important no 415 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: matter what path you took to it. 416 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 5: It's also like, I think. 417 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 1: That there are really responsible, good journalists who are conservatives 418 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 1: who I don't agree with politically, but I know when 419 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:42,919 Speaker 1: I read them that they're making an effort that that 420 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 1: there is a dedication to facts, and that that's how 421 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: I kind of, you know, draw a line. When I 422 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 1: was doing the work on Obama's drone wars and stuff, 423 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: there were a lot of you know, journalists on a 424 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: totally different political perspective, myself, who I thought did really 425 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: good reporting on it. I think the key is, do you, 426 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,360 Speaker 1: you know, do you keep that same principle when your 427 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: guys are in power? And that's where I think we have, 428 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: you know, sort of main you know, major problems. You 429 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 1: can't be a vegetarian between meals. You can't be like, oh, 430 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: I'm a journalist now that you know Donald Trump is 431 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:15,120 Speaker 1: in power. I mean, this goes to your other question. 432 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: This happened to Ryan too when Trump was president. I mean, clearly, 433 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: Donald Trump is not someone who represents much of my worldview, 434 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 1: but there were elements of Trump's foreign policy were that 435 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: represented a departure from what we saw under the eight 436 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,360 Speaker 1: years of Barack Obama or kind of the elite consensus 437 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: in Washington, d C. And anytime we would point out, 438 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: like I did a story at one point where I 439 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 1: was talking about Trump's kind of stated opposition to Forever Wars, 440 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:44,679 Speaker 1: and I wrote something and did a podcast on it 441 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 1: that said that Trump might be our best bet to 442 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:48,200 Speaker 1: actually get out of some of these And I was 443 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:50,199 Speaker 1: making a complicated argument that had to do with the 444 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 1: nature of this alliance between the neocons and the Democrats 445 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 1: and how Trump, whatever you think of him, represented, you know, 446 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 1: sy Hirsch said at the time, as a circuit breaker, 447 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: this isn't to praise him, it's a state facts. Well, 448 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 1: people went completely nuts. Oh sk Hill is pro Trump. 449 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 1: Oh you called Trump the dove. Never called Trump the dove. 450 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: The guy expanded drone strikes, he used the mother of 451 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: all bombs, He assassinated Costum Sully money I fact. I 452 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: mean Trump was a highly militaristic president, but he had 453 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: certain basic things that he had put on record that 454 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 1: were a departure from the way that Democrats and Republicans talk. 455 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 5: And I think we have. 456 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:21,919 Speaker 1: To we have an obligation to point that out and 457 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,399 Speaker 1: not just treat it as you know, orange orange Hitler 458 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: is coming back into power, like we have our responsibilities 459 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 1: what's true and what's not so and you know, working democracy. 460 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: Now to the intercept to drop site. I think that 461 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: you know, the the spirit that Ryan and I and 462 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: our colleagues are trying to embrace is is one of 463 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 1: we called it non aligned journalism at the beginning. That 464 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:46,439 Speaker 1: doesn't you know, nonpartisan is you know, that's tired, you know, 465 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:48,919 Speaker 1: but I think not online, this this idea that facts 466 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 1: actually matter and that we're not afraid to say, you know, 467 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: that the Democrats are engaged in a genocidal war, and 468 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: that we're not going to pull punches because people are saying, oh, 469 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:02,159 Speaker 1: what are you doing. You're going to help Trump. No, 470 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: we're going to help the public to have a real understanding. 471 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: And people like us who are perceived to be you know, 472 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 1: on the left or you know, sometimes people erroneously call 473 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 1: us liberals. Our job is not to get Kamala Harris elected. 474 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: You know, our job was not to get Barack Obama elected. 475 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,920 Speaker 1: Our job is to hold politicians accountable, regardless of which 476 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: party they're a member of. And I think that on 477 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 1: the right you don't have many people that are willing. 478 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 1: Maybe it increased a bit because of Trump, but in general, 479 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 1: I don't think you see, look our old colleague Glenn Greenwald, 480 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: you know, he went way out on a limb and 481 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:39,919 Speaker 1: he was you know, I think he's right about cancel 482 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 1: culture and speech issues. But he also saw in a 483 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,159 Speaker 1: very real way that some of the people that he 484 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 1: thought were allies in this, all of a sudden when 485 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: it comes to Palestine, they want to shut down that speech. So, 486 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: you know, I think that the people I respect, regardless 487 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,680 Speaker 1: of their political outlook, are people that apply the same 488 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 1: principles regardless of who's in power. 489 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:02,879 Speaker 5: And there are a lot of. 490 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 2: People who in conservative media actually which I'm a pretty 491 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 2: launch defender of, who do unfortunately see their jobs helping 492 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:14,159 Speaker 2: a candidate. And I think journalism is about helping facts 493 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 2: and truth. You just have to If you want to 494 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,199 Speaker 2: be on a team, that's fine, but it's not journalism, right, 495 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 2: go do that. Yeah, if you think that's the just 496 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 2: way to go about your business, fine, but it's not journalism. 497 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: But also, look at look what we're witnessing right now 498 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: with you know, with Liz Cheney and Dick Cheney endorsing 499 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 1: Kamala Harris and not just endorsing Kamala Harris. Kamala Harris 500 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:38,120 Speaker 1: then does an event with Liz Cheney in Wisconsin in 501 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: which she goes out of her way to praise Dick 502 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: Cheney for his service to the country This is one 503 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 1: of the most notorious villains in modern American history. You know, 504 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: I mean people talk about, you know, Henry Kissinger. I mean, 505 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 1: Dick Cheney and Henry Kissinger are on the same level 506 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 1: of the amount of destruction that. 507 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 5: They wrought in the world. 508 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: And to have common Mala Harris, you know, there would 509 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: have been a different way to handle that. But to 510 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 1: actually go out of your way to thank him for 511 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:06,360 Speaker 1: his service. 512 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,640 Speaker 3: This was a what service I mean, if you want 513 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 3: to specify what service. 514 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 5: Dick Cheney was the guy who in Congress. 515 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:16,439 Speaker 1: First of all, you know, these guys thought that, like 516 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 1: the Nixon administration, was a model for how you should 517 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 1: deal with Congress and deal with secrecy. Dick Cheney, when 518 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 1: he was in Congress, wrote the so called Minority Report 519 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 1: for the Iran Contra scandal, saying, not only should no 520 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: one go to jail for this, but this is actually 521 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 1: a model for how he should be doing it. 522 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 3: Right. 523 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 1: They believe that the president, when it comes to quote 524 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: unquote national security policy, should effectively operate a dictatorship of 525 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:42,920 Speaker 1: the executive and that Congress's only function is to fund 526 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: the operations. 527 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 5: But then you talk. 528 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,159 Speaker 1: About when they were actually in power the torture. The 529 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 1: man still defends waterboarding, He still defends torture. These were 530 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,360 Speaker 1: the guys that were big into the warrantless wiretapping, the 531 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: secret prisons, the torture, the wars of aggression, the declaration 532 00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 1: that the world is a battlefield. What is Kamala Hera 533 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,159 Speaker 1: thinking saying she's thanking this person for his service, you know, 534 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,640 Speaker 1: to me, though, it's indicative the Bill Crystal neo con wing, 535 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: you know, of the Republican Party, It's not. This narrative 536 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,439 Speaker 1: that they're just concerned about the fate of American democracy 537 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:17,200 Speaker 1: is complete nonsense, And actually it's an insidious narrative because 538 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 1: the truth is they're totally they totally love what Joe 539 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,439 Speaker 1: Biden and Kamala Harris are doing on a foreign policy 540 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 1: level right now in the Middle East. They're just just 541 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,440 Speaker 1: like Dick Cheney loved the fact that Obama was able 542 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 1: to normalize drone strikes and assassination as a fundamental part 543 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 1: of American policy for liberals, you know. And so you 544 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:37,680 Speaker 1: message that and people say, oh, what are you doing 545 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: trying to help Trump? Well, what is the Democratic Party 546 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:45,479 Speaker 1: doing proactively praising Dick Cheney's record? 547 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:47,359 Speaker 5: You know, it's Kamala Harris. 548 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:49,199 Speaker 1: Can't help it if Dick Cheney says, I'd rather have 549 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 1: Kamala Harris, but then she goes out of her way 550 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: to say this about someone that Democrats used to say 551 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 1: it was one of the most notorious war criminals in 552 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: modern American history. 553 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:58,680 Speaker 2: Joe Biden was on TV in the Bush era saying 554 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 2: that he had shredded the Constitution and he didn't care 555 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 2: about the Constitution. 556 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: So, yeah, one interesting thing about Joe Biden. You know, 557 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 1: early in Joe Biden's career, he focused pretty intensely on 558 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: the War Powers Act, you know, and if you go 559 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 1: back and you look at Joe Biden's career, he actually 560 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: understands these issues of war powers. He was at times 561 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,120 Speaker 1: he dissented within the Obama White House. But what we're 562 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,680 Speaker 1: what we're seeing now, you know, and there's talk of 563 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:28,439 Speaker 1: the United States potentially participating in an offensive attack on 564 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 1: you know, on Iran, which would be a clear violation 565 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,120 Speaker 1: of the of the War Powers Act. Biden's career those 566 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 1: shows that when it actually comes down to when your 567 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: people are in power, those things go out the window. 568 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: And under democratic administrations, Biden made all sorts of excuses 569 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 1: and exceptions under Clinton and certainly under Obama for violating 570 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: the War Powers Act. 571 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 3: And so then in the two thousands, and you know, 572 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 3: twenty tens, you became known for your reporting on mercenaries 573 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 3: and then also drones strike in America's dirty wars. So 574 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 3: as you're at democracy now, late nineties, early two thousands, 575 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,159 Speaker 3: lead up nine to eleven, then the lead up to 576 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 3: the war, how do you go from the editing room 577 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 3: mopping the floors. Yeah too, I presume you continued doing 578 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 3: those things, but then also getting to participate in the 579 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,440 Speaker 3: in the trade craft of producing it then gets added. 580 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:24,119 Speaker 1: What happened was that the in nineteen ninety eight, Amy 581 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:29,399 Speaker 1: Goodman was wanted to go to Nigeria to investigate the 582 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,440 Speaker 1: role of oil companies in that country, and she had 583 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,879 Speaker 1: done one of the only US interviews with the poet 584 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,640 Speaker 1: Ken Sarah Wewa, who was the one of the lead. 585 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,439 Speaker 1: He was a world renowned poet from Nigeria, one of 586 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: the leaders of the Ogoni. 587 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 5: Tribe in the Niger Delta. 588 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: And with the complicity of the Shell Oil Corporation, the 589 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: Nigerian military junta hanged Ken Sara Wewa and eight others 590 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,360 Speaker 1: they were known as the Ogoni Nine. But Amy had 591 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: interviewed Ken Sarah Wewa when he came briefly to the 592 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: United States in the mid nine It was, I think 593 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 1: it was even months before he was he was hanged, 594 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 1: and Amy really cared deeply about She was deeply moved 595 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,960 Speaker 1: by meeting Ken Sara Wewa and started working on investigation. 596 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:14,639 Speaker 1: She actually asked me to go along with her to 597 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,440 Speaker 1: Nigeria and and so I went kind of as her 598 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:21,959 Speaker 1: assistant more or less. So we traveled all around these 599 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,359 Speaker 1: riverine communities of the Niger Delta, and I mean it 600 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: was incredible to watch Amy Goodman work as the most 601 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 1: tireless aggressive journal I've ever met. I mean, she is 602 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 1: she she is a force of nature. I'll just tell 603 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:35,920 Speaker 1: you one story though. 604 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 5: So we go. 605 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:40,159 Speaker 1: We interviewed, we documented this massacre of indigenous villagers who 606 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:44,440 Speaker 1: had protested Chevron, and it was clear that Chevron had 607 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 1: provided them with company helicopters, the paramilitary force with Chevron 608 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,880 Speaker 1: helicopters to go and attack these indigenous villagers that were 609 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: doing a non violent occupation of one of their oil barges. 610 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: So we went and we did the people side of 611 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,719 Speaker 1: the story. We interviewed survived witnesses, et cetera. And then 612 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 1: we went back to Lagos and at the time, the 613 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,400 Speaker 1: dictator Sani Abacha had just died. It was an extremely 614 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 1: dangerous situation in Nigeria. Another military figure had taken control 615 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 1: of the country. And we went to Chevron's headquarters in Legos, 616 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: so we had We were in a car with the drivers, 617 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 1: me and Amy. 618 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 5: We pull up. We had no appointment. 619 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 1: Amy, we had figured out the name of the managing director. 620 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 1: Amy said we're here to see the managing director and 621 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 1: they're like, well, do you have an appointment? And she said, 622 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: we're Americans and he said, okay, yeah, yeah, but do 623 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 1: you have an appointment We are Americans. We need to 624 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 1: see him right now. Chevron's an American oil corporation. And she 625 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 1: talked her way through the security. We go in there 626 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: and within minutes we're sitting face to face with the 627 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: managing director of Chevron in Nigeria, and Amy proceeds to 628 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: get him to admit to the entire thing, just you know, 629 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:48,479 Speaker 1: in the course of this interview, and at one point 630 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: he says to her, she's asking about the helicopters the 631 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: providing helicopter. He says, oh, actually, our head of security 632 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,040 Speaker 1: went with them. Chevron's head of security went. 633 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 5: With this war. Oh yeah, she was recording. Amy was 634 00:28:58,680 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 5: recording the whole thing. 635 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 4: Huh, it's nice to tell. 636 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 1: So Amy's can you talk to him? Oh yeah, we 637 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 1: can get it. So they bring him into the room 638 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: and She's saying out, did they have any weapons? Well, 639 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: they had like voodoo charms. He's saying, you know, they've 640 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 1: made up. They had this whole thing. 641 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 5: The congression. We come back. 642 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 1: Then we do this documentary called Drilling and Killing Chevron 643 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,959 Speaker 1: and Nigeria's oil Dictatorship. It wins the George Polk Award 644 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,719 Speaker 1: that year and the Congressional Black Caucusted Investigation. 645 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 5: And you know, and I learned. 646 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 1: I learned journalism as a trade like you would be 647 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 1: an apprentice. 648 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 5: So I soaked up everything. 649 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 1: I had notebooks filled not just with what we were seeing, 650 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: but what I was witnessing. Amy as someone I considered 651 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: to be my mentor, how she was, how she worked, 652 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 1: the aggressiveness, the temerity, the thoroughness. 653 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 5: I mean, Amy is in a relentless fact checker. I 654 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 5: mean she is incredible. 655 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: To watch a journalist's work like that, and I I 656 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: mean I think about it every day because it's you know, 657 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: I think if you look at how much laziness there 658 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: is in journalism today, also what our devices have created. 659 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: People think you can just source, Oh can you give 660 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 1: me a quote? Everything is now being done remotely. We 661 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 1: lose something when we're not in the field, when we're 662 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 1: not talking face to face with people. 663 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 3: And so then you had an interesting arc in the 664 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 3: sense that after the war breaks out and you've got 665 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 3: these war criminals Bush and Cheney in the office, you've 666 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 3: become kind of like a hero of Democrats because you're 667 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 3: out there criticizing you know, eventually Democrats, no, they support 668 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 3: I mean Democratic voters who are against the war. Democrats themselves, 669 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 3: half of them voted. 670 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 5: For the war. Yeah. 671 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 3: So what's that experience like to go from oh, it's 672 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 3: surreal every you know, MSNBC and. 673 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 6: You know, sort of marginalized leftists, and. 674 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 3: Then everybody's loving what you're saying, and then all of 675 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 3: a sudden, oh, yeah, you're saying the exact same thing. 676 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 4: I mean, so new boss and. 677 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 1: So had I had spent years going in and out 678 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 1: of Iraq, even before nine to eleven, I started going 679 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: to a rock in the late nineteen nineties. Amy, you know, 680 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: Amy supported me going to do that. So I was 681 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 1: doing reporting from Iraq starting in the nineties when Saddam 682 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 1: Husin was in power, and a lot of what I 683 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 1: was one important thing in journalism is to be humble 684 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 1: enough to know what you don't know. And Amy also 685 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:10,959 Speaker 1: told me that too. She said, you don't feel like 686 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 1: you need to tell the whole political story when you 687 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: go somewhere to report. Remember you're just starting doing this. 688 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 1: It's valuable to tell the stories of what you see 689 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 1: around you, and don't don't pretend that you're an expert 690 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 1: on something that you're not. And so a lot of 691 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 1: what I did in my early reporting, I was in 692 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 1: you know, Serbia during. 693 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:27,959 Speaker 5: The nineteen ninety nine NATO bombing. 694 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 1: I was in Iraq under the sanctions and the no 695 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: fly zone bombings of Bill Clinton, and a lot of 696 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: what I did was to go talk to ordinary people 697 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 1: about what happened today in your family, you know, telling 698 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 1: these stories of ordinary people. And in Iraq, I had, 699 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 1: you know, did a lot of stories about the hospitals 700 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,719 Speaker 1: in Iraq. So when when the Iraq War happened, I 701 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: already had spent years going in and out of Iraq, 702 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 1: and I understood the dynamic. I knew that there were 703 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 1: no weapons of mass destruction. I was there when the 704 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: Weapons Inspector stuff happened. And you know, anyway, then, you know, 705 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:02,479 Speaker 1: Democrats largely posed the war, although people like Hillary Clinton 706 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 1: and Joe Biden was a major facilitator of the Iraq War. 707 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 1: No matter how he wants to try to revise history, 708 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 1: he was the chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee 709 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 1: at a time when they should have been, you know, 710 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 1: pointing out all of the problems with the administration narrative. 711 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: And Biden largely was a facilitator of the war. So Democrats, 712 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: as an institutional power entity should not be ever let 713 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 1: off the hook for their role in that. 714 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 5: But the base was opposed to that war. 715 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: So when I then started doing this reporting on Blackwater, 716 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: you know, it tied together so many things have I 717 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 1: first encountered Blackwater in New Orleans actually in the aftermath 718 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 1: of the flooding of the city and Hurricane Katrina. 719 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 5: So it was like. 720 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 1: A surreal experience to see these guys walking the streets 721 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 1: of an American city, you know, with automatic weapons, and 722 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 1: to say that they've been deputized by the governor of 723 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 1: the state of Louisiana to shoot. 724 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 5: Looters and to discover that these forces. 725 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 1: And at the time, nobody really had heard of Blackwater 726 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 1: yet there had been an incident where four Blackwater operatives 727 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: were ambush and killed in the Iraqi city of Falluja, 728 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 1: which then gave the US a excuse to lay siege 729 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 1: to it, and it was one of the most horrifying 730 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 1: episodes of the early stages of the Iraq War. But 731 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 1: in general people didn't know much about them. And then 732 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 1: we did this reporting showing that they were in and 733 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 1: this was for the Nation magazine at the time, that 734 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 1: they were in New Orleans, and I became obsessed with 735 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 1: this company and this kind of shadowy figure, Eric Prince 736 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 1: and his family history, and the fact that they were 737 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 1: some of the premier funders of the radical religious right, and. 738 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:31,959 Speaker 5: They were kind. The Prince family was one of the 739 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 5: main funding engines for the merging that happened in the 740 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 5: Republican Party between what's now known as the religious right 741 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 5: and then the kind of traditional conservatives bringing them together. 742 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 4: People don't know Betsy Deva. 743 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 1: Betsy Devas is Eric Prince's sister and you know, of course, 744 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 1: was a cabinet official in the early days of the 745 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 1: Trump administration. 746 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 4: Fantastically rich. 747 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 1: You know, they were the main funders of like focus 748 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 1: on the family and you know all you know this, 749 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: and Erik Prince's mother continued to be the premier funder 750 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,080 Speaker 1: of defeating ballot initiatives on. 751 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 5: You know, on gay marriage, et cetera. 752 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 1: But so I started writing article after article, and I 753 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,399 Speaker 1: had gotten a fellowship at the Nation magazine. My friend 754 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,399 Speaker 1: Naomi Klein had recommended me for it, which generally means 755 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 1: you get paid a small amount of money to do, 756 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,279 Speaker 1: you know, as much work as you possibly can will 757 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,839 Speaker 1: keeping your head above the water. And I mean, like 758 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 1: the Nation was was so it was, it was so great. 759 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:24,359 Speaker 1: I loved the Nation. I had applied as a young 760 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 1: person for an internship and got rejected, and then years 761 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 1: later I would be hired as their national security correspondent 762 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 1: and I'm doing all this reporting on Blackwater. 763 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 5: And Katrina Van and Hoovil. 764 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,440 Speaker 1: And Betsy Read, the editors at the time, said you know, 765 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 1: we love you, we love the work you're doing, but 766 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,520 Speaker 1: we are a pretty small magazine. We can't publish an 767 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,399 Speaker 1: article every week about the same company, like you either 768 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 1: need to diversify your beat or like write a book. 769 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,880 Speaker 1: So I wrote a book, and you know, my advance 770 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,840 Speaker 1: for that book was thirty thousand dollars, which means that 771 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,320 Speaker 1: you get ten thousand dollars when you sign it. I 772 00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 1: mean I didn't have health insurance or anything at the time, 773 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,799 Speaker 1: or you know, I a small amount of money from 774 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 1: a fellowship and then I get this thirty thousand. I 775 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:05,239 Speaker 1: didn't understand how the book advanced work. 776 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,399 Speaker 5: You know, you get paid a third event. I was like, okay, 777 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 5: I can do that. That should last me for you know months. 778 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 5: I can do this. 779 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:15,959 Speaker 1: And then you get the first check and it's pre TAXI. 780 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 5: Right, and you're like, I didn't even have an agent 781 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,439 Speaker 5: at the time. It just went with the Yeah. 782 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:22,279 Speaker 1: And so I wrote the book, and I thought that 783 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,120 Speaker 1: I was going to be like selling it out of 784 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:24,760 Speaker 1: my backpack. 785 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 5: I really didn't. I really was kind of naive in 786 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 5: that part of life. Like I didn't. I was. 787 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:31,799 Speaker 1: I wasn't doing it because of money. You know, most 788 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,360 Speaker 1: people don't make any money from a book. So so 789 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,239 Speaker 1: I write this thing and it debuts at number nine 790 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:38,879 Speaker 1: on the New York Times bestseller list. 791 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 6: What year is. 792 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,879 Speaker 1: By the way, this was two thousand and seven, and 793 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,239 Speaker 1: so it debuts at number nine. I had and next 794 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 1: thing I know, I'm like, you know, getting interviewed on 795 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,360 Speaker 1: big TV shows. But remember what happened that year in 796 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,880 Speaker 1: two thousand and seven, is in September of two thousand 797 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 1: and seven, Blackwater mercenaries open fire on a crowded circle, 798 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,680 Speaker 1: traffic circle in Baghdad known as Square, and they kill 799 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,759 Speaker 1: more than a dozen Iraqi civilians. And it was an 800 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,720 Speaker 1: enormous story at the time, huge story around the world. 801 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 1: And actually that night I had been out with my 802 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 1: friends in New York and one of the things we 803 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 1: were kind of celebrating is that I was sort of saying, 804 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 1: I'm going to be done with Blackwater now and I 805 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:18,760 Speaker 1: want to move on to try to do other reporting. 806 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 5: And I had gone out with. 807 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:21,719 Speaker 1: A bunch of friends that night until like four in 808 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 1: the morning, and one of the things we were kind 809 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,360 Speaker 1: of jokingly celebrating was that Jeremy's going to find something 810 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:28,400 Speaker 1: else to do with his life. 811 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 5: And then I wake up. 812 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 1: That morning to a series of text messages from Amy 813 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 1: Goodman and other media outlets saying can you come into 814 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 1: the studio, and from that moment. For like months on end, 815 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:44,240 Speaker 1: I was permanently on TV. I was on CNN, NBC, Fox, 816 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,440 Speaker 1: MSNBC regularly on all of these things. Then I ended 817 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,880 Speaker 1: up being a correspondent on the Real Time with Bill Maher. 818 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,160 Speaker 1: You know, like I wasn't a known person at that time. 819 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 1: You know, I was probably considered like an up and 820 00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:01,400 Speaker 1: coming independent lefty journalist or something, but like not, I 821 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:03,439 Speaker 1: wasn't anything mainstream. All of a sudden, I'm on TV 822 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,160 Speaker 1: all the time, and that lasted, you know, for a 823 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 1: sustained period where I would be called to talk about 824 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:11,920 Speaker 1: the Iraq War, about Blackwater, et cetera. And as long 825 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,759 Speaker 1: you know, when Bush and Cheney were in power, Democrats 826 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,280 Speaker 1: were very happy to have me. You know, I testified 827 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 1: in front of Congress multiple times. I had good relationships 828 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 1: with a number of Congress people would be they would 829 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,400 Speaker 1: ask me about legislation that they were going to put in. 830 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:28,080 Speaker 5: On these issues. 831 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 1: And then Obama becomes president and people didn't like it 832 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:36,960 Speaker 1: when I then applied the same standards to what they 833 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,680 Speaker 1: were doing in the realm of assassination and drone strike And. 834 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 3: Was there anything in particular that got you, like an 835 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:45,680 Speaker 3: MSNBC ban or was it just gradual? 836 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:46,839 Speaker 5: Well, there was. 837 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:48,400 Speaker 1: There were two things that I mean, you know, that 838 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,680 Speaker 1: world of being banned at these networks, it's very hard 839 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:55,160 Speaker 1: to like nail it down. I was told by a 840 00:37:55,200 --> 00:38:00,200 Speaker 1: friend within MSNBC that after a particular incident occurred that 841 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,480 Speaker 1: I was that a note book order had been issued 842 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:05,240 Speaker 1: on me, and for a long time after this happened, 843 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 1: I was not allowed on. 844 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:08,120 Speaker 5: What happened is that I was on. 845 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 1: Rachel Maddow's show, and it was when my book Dirty 846 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,759 Speaker 1: Wars and the film Dirty Wars were out, and you know, 847 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,200 Speaker 1: Rachel had had me on a lot, and Keith Oberman 848 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 1: used to have me on like all the time. 849 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:19,719 Speaker 5: So I was on with. 850 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 1: Rachel, who I always had a you know, I don't 851 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:24,640 Speaker 1: know her as a as a person. I know her superficially, 852 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 1: but she's always she always was pretty supportive of my work. 853 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:29,400 Speaker 1: So she has me on and we were talking about 854 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:33,200 Speaker 1: the drone strike that had killed a sixteen year old 855 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 1: American citizen teenager in Yemen named ab the Rochman Alacki. 856 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:39,880 Speaker 1: His father, of course, was anwar a Lacki, who the 857 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,040 Speaker 1: United States openly said was on a kill list. And 858 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 1: then they did in fact kill him in a drone strike, 859 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:45,799 Speaker 1: but then two weeks later they killed his teenage son 860 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 1: of the Rockman. So I was on Rachel's show, and 861 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 1: right before that segment where Rachel interviews me, she had 862 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:58,719 Speaker 1: had Robert gibbson, who at the time was an MSNBC contributor, 863 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 1: and Gibbs had been the campaign spokesperson for Barack Obama's 864 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,480 Speaker 1: re election campaign in addition to having been an official 865 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:06,279 Speaker 1: in the press. 866 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:07,400 Speaker 4: I think I might go ahead. 867 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:09,960 Speaker 5: He was the press secretary, and then he when he 868 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:10,359 Speaker 5: said the. 869 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: Thing that I'm going to tell you, he was the 870 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,399 Speaker 1: campaign spokesperson for the Obama reelection campaign. 871 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,920 Speaker 4: He said it to me. Yeah, okay, my god, that's funny. 872 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:23,800 Speaker 1: So what happened is that Gibbs had been asked about 873 00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:24,920 Speaker 1: the killing. 874 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:26,960 Speaker 4: Of the boy spin room. 875 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,279 Speaker 5: So this was a right good The story's even better. 876 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:33,239 Speaker 3: So the debate, At every debate afterwards, there's the spin room, 877 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 3: and they send a Sturgets out to talk to the reporters, 878 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:40,080 Speaker 3: and the question you're supposed to ask is did Obama 879 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:41,960 Speaker 3: do what he needed to do against Mitt Romney? 880 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,440 Speaker 4: And then you get the spin from Robert Gibbs. 881 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:50,719 Speaker 3: I said Obama just assassinated a sixteen year old boy 882 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:51,240 Speaker 3: in Yemen. 883 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 4: What's your reaction? 884 00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:53,600 Speaker 6: Is going to win the election? 885 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:58,200 Speaker 3: What's your reaction to that? And Gibbs said he should 886 00:39:58,200 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 3: have had a better father, He. 887 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:00,799 Speaker 5: Should have had a more respond father. Yeah. 888 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:06,000 Speaker 3: I sent that comment to the White House, and I 889 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:08,600 Speaker 3: remember they put enormous pressure. 890 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,440 Speaker 6: On me this Politico. You were at Politico. 891 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 3: I was at hof Post at the time, saying he 892 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:16,560 Speaker 3: really regrets having said that. 893 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:19,239 Speaker 4: He shouldn't have said that to you. Can you please 894 00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:19,680 Speaker 4: not really? 895 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:20,600 Speaker 5: I never heard that part of it. 896 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:21,879 Speaker 4: Can you please not publish this? 897 00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:22,280 Speaker 6: Wow? 898 00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:24,920 Speaker 5: So that happened in twenty eleven? 899 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,279 Speaker 3: He said it, yeah, yeah, to the Pound sand then 900 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 3: and I published it. 901 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:30,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, the killing. 902 00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:32,640 Speaker 1: Happened in twenty eleven, so this must have happened like 903 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,319 Speaker 1: twelve or so twelve, Yeah, because it was right, it 904 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:37,120 Speaker 1: was right, Okay, So that makes sense. That was Gibbs, 905 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,040 Speaker 1: So this would have been then twenty thirteen. I guess 906 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,040 Speaker 1: when I was on with Rachel and we were talking 907 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:45,919 Speaker 1: about this episode, but Gibbs had been on talking about 908 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:48,880 Speaker 1: something unrelated before me, because he was an NBC contributor 909 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:49,319 Speaker 1: at the time. 910 00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:53,000 Speaker 5: So then when the interview starts with Rachel. I mentioned 911 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,879 Speaker 5: the fact that you just had Robert gibbson, and one 912 00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:57,520 Speaker 5: of you should ask him about this, because we were 913 00:40:57,520 --> 00:40:58,960 Speaker 5: about to now talk about the killing of this. 914 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,200 Speaker 1: Kid that Ryan had questioned him about. So I said, 915 00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:03,080 Speaker 1: you know, one of you guys should ask him about this. 916 00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:06,800 Speaker 1: You know, now that he's an MSNBC contributor. You know, 917 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,160 Speaker 1: it's shameful to I don't remember my exact words, but 918 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:10,719 Speaker 1: I made the point that it's you know, it's shameful 919 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:14,279 Speaker 1: to imply that this kid deserved to die because you know, 920 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:17,280 Speaker 1: his father wasn't responsible that that. Therefore, it's like okay 921 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,040 Speaker 1: to drone assassinate a kid that no one has ever 922 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,360 Speaker 1: made any allegation he had any connection to terrorism or 923 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:24,239 Speaker 1: anything whatsoever. 924 00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:26,680 Speaker 5: And you know he was also an American citizen. 925 00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, I said to Rachel during it wasn't I wasn't 926 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:30,439 Speaker 1: like attacking Rachel Metow. 927 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:31,920 Speaker 5: I just made made a comment. 928 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,680 Speaker 1: And after the show ended, I don't remember exactly what 929 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:38,520 Speaker 1: Rachel said, but she made a comment to me that 930 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:40,960 Speaker 1: you know, that was not appropriate that I had done 931 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:43,400 Speaker 1: that or something like that, And did. 932 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:44,560 Speaker 2: You get the sense that it was from someone in 933 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:48,280 Speaker 2: her ear? Telling her to say that, or was it anybody. 934 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:50,560 Speaker 1: I don't think she needs anybody to tell her no. 935 00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 1: And I, you know, I mean again, just you know, 936 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,319 Speaker 1: to clarify I I don't know Rachel Mattow. Well, she 937 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,640 Speaker 1: always had been very you know, positive about my work, 938 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:00,680 Speaker 1: and but that was the last time, you know, I 939 00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:03,480 Speaker 1: ever saw her. I was certainly never invited back on again, 940 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:05,719 Speaker 1: and then I wasn't invited on others. And then what 941 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:10,360 Speaker 1: happened with CNN was when Trump authorized the missile strikes 942 00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:14,919 Speaker 1: against Syria early in his administration. I was on Brian 943 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:20,000 Speaker 1: Stelter show, and I was and on his show, I 944 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:25,040 Speaker 1: went after Fared Zakaria. I said that, you know, Fared 945 00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:26,959 Speaker 1: loves these missile strikes and if you could have sex 946 00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:28,719 Speaker 1: with a cruise missile strike, you would, And then I 947 00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:30,120 Speaker 1: started talking about the like. 948 00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 5: He's just like in love with these things. 949 00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:34,840 Speaker 1: It's so but it's creepy when you watch sometimes his 950 00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,719 Speaker 1: reaction to these military actions. It's really I find it 951 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:40,600 Speaker 1: creepy with some of these pundits, how giddy they get. 952 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:42,960 Speaker 1: There was that famous Brian Williams thing about the you know, 953 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:46,480 Speaker 1: the beautiful the beautiful lights and everything, but so I'm 954 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:48,920 Speaker 1: on that show. And then I also called out their generals, 955 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:51,799 Speaker 1: and I named some of their generals and said that 956 00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,240 Speaker 1: you aren't disclosing the fact that they have a profit 957 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,680 Speaker 1: motive for advocating this kind of military action. And after that, 958 00:42:58,000 --> 00:42:59,800 Speaker 1: I was told there was a note book order issued 959 00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:02,040 Speaker 1: out me at CNN after that. 960 00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:04,239 Speaker 3: So I had to give Gibbs this pushback. I just 961 00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:07,719 Speaker 3: found the story from October twenty twelve. He said what 962 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:09,920 Speaker 3: he was trying to say was that he didn't realize 963 00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,280 Speaker 3: that the son was killed two weeks after the father, 964 00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:15,839 Speaker 3: and I guess he thought the kid was just killed 965 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,080 Speaker 3: with his father, So that was his. 966 00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:21,160 Speaker 1: I find that I find that a difficult explanation. You Know, 967 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,400 Speaker 1: what I was told at the time was that Brennan, 968 00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:29,400 Speaker 1: John Brennan, the CIA director, that Obama himself was, was 969 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:31,920 Speaker 1: livid when he heard that the kid had been killed, 970 00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:34,560 Speaker 1: that the sixteen year old had been killed. And you know, 971 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,879 Speaker 1: I tried to trackl justifiable. It's completely unjustifiable. 972 00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,839 Speaker 5: But you know, I had been told at the time 973 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,399 Speaker 5: I had good sources in the in that world, and 974 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:47,000 Speaker 5: I was told that both Obama and Brennan were trying 975 00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:50,840 Speaker 5: to figure out how exactly the kid was killed, because 976 00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:53,640 Speaker 5: there's been a lot of suspicion that they intended to 977 00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:54,120 Speaker 5: kill him. 978 00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:58,640 Speaker 1: No one has ever proven that. What I my best 979 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:00,839 Speaker 1: guess is that part of what is if they were 980 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:05,520 Speaker 1: using There's a whole convoluted story about why that kid 981 00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:07,200 Speaker 1: had run away from home and was looking for his 982 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:09,279 Speaker 1: dad that I won't get into now. 983 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:11,800 Speaker 5: But the short of it is, I think that the 984 00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:14,640 Speaker 5: disposition matrix. We know that the child. 985 00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:17,520 Speaker 1: We know this from leaked documents, whistleblower documents that Abd 986 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:21,480 Speaker 1: Rochman Alacki's sixteen year old American citizen was assigned a 987 00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:25,400 Speaker 1: terrorism tracking number by the United States government, which is 988 00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,600 Speaker 1: not necessarily shocking given that his dad was, you know, 989 00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:30,440 Speaker 1: a wanted figure. He would have been considered like a 990 00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:32,600 Speaker 1: known associat or family member. But he did have a 991 00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:37,160 Speaker 1: terrorist tracking number, and certainly his cell phone and other 992 00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:41,000 Speaker 1: communications would have been monitored, you know, when the US 993 00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:45,240 Speaker 1: was hunting for his dad, and you know, the initial 994 00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:47,120 Speaker 1: reports was that he was killed in an area with 995 00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:50,879 Speaker 1: people who were members of al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. 996 00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:53,680 Speaker 1: What may have happened is that they used these formulas 997 00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:56,000 Speaker 1: where it's like if this SIM card is communicating with 998 00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:58,319 Speaker 1: this sim card, and these five sim cards are now 999 00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:02,120 Speaker 1: together and we're tracking it. We know that that's a personality. 1000 00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:04,680 Speaker 1: You know that it has the sorry, the signature of 1001 00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:07,160 Speaker 1: a group of terrorists rather than it being a personality 1002 00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:09,520 Speaker 1: strike where you know who you're getting. They have enough 1003 00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:12,359 Speaker 1: signatures of being a terror grouping that we bomb them. 1004 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:13,920 Speaker 1: So it could have been that, it could have been 1005 00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:17,160 Speaker 1: that someone signed off on killing him. We don't actually know, 1006 00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:24,680 Speaker 1: but I don't find Gibbs's explanation credible given that I 1007 00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:28,640 Speaker 1: believe that Obama and Brennan at the time were concerned 1008 00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:30,160 Speaker 1: about the fact that kid was killed. 1009 00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:35,319 Speaker 2: So what I find fascinating about all of that is 1010 00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:37,160 Speaker 2: this is sort of the era when I was coming 1011 00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,800 Speaker 2: of age, Dixie Chicks, Culture Wars era, and I remember, 1012 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:42,840 Speaker 2: you know, shows like Real Time with Bill mar I 1013 00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:47,400 Speaker 2: remember outlets like huff Post and The Nation and the 1014 00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:49,480 Speaker 2: early days of the Intercept. I'm curious how you guys 1015 00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,319 Speaker 2: would weigh in on this sort of platforming. I think 1016 00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:55,360 Speaker 2: in a really good way. A lot of this almost 1017 00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,400 Speaker 2: like crunchy leftist kind of social justice. 1018 00:45:59,000 --> 00:45:59,680 Speaker 5: I watch it now. 1019 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:06,919 Speaker 6: If the if the Birkensack fits. But you know, I've 1020 00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:07,719 Speaker 6: I really. 1021 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,960 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah you do like Homemadkeranala, but I really found 1022 00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:15,640 Speaker 2: that stuff to be like actually very compelling, and it 1023 00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:17,839 Speaker 2: just a lot of those institutions. 1024 00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:19,440 Speaker 6: MSNBC is such a good example. 1025 00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:21,600 Speaker 2: Rachel Matta herself is such a good example, and that 1026 00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:23,799 Speaker 2: she used to have conversations with people like you. They 1027 00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:26,360 Speaker 2: seem to have made a business decision that in the 1028 00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:28,920 Speaker 2: Trump era especially, this no longer sold. This was no 1029 00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:31,280 Speaker 2: longer the product that would do best for them. Obviously 1030 00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:36,360 Speaker 2: the politics conveniently underlined or or were conveniently aligned with 1031 00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:38,920 Speaker 2: that as well. But what I'm so curious about is 1032 00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:41,880 Speaker 2: at drop site. Now, I think there is an incredible 1033 00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:45,000 Speaker 2: market for exactly the type of journalism that you do, 1034 00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:48,799 Speaker 2: whether it's pegged as you know, unfairly I mean as 1035 00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:52,959 Speaker 2: like crunchy leftist whatever, or if it's just good journalism 1036 00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:55,120 Speaker 2: that happens to be by people who are on the left. 1037 00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:57,880 Speaker 2: It seems like this is a huge mistake on the 1038 00:46:57,920 --> 00:46:59,920 Speaker 2: part of MSNBC, a huge mistake on the part of 1039 00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:04,440 Speaker 2: places like HuffPo, missing that there's a real audience for this. 1040 00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:07,239 Speaker 2: I remember being in Chicago at the DNC when there. 1041 00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:08,360 Speaker 6: Was a drop Site party. 1042 00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:13,520 Speaker 2: Your guys' turnout was incredible, and also just the enthusiasm 1043 00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:16,040 Speaker 2: for the product, the loyalty to the product. I mean, 1044 00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:19,200 Speaker 2: Drop Site fans love both of you. It's a real 1045 00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:22,560 Speaker 2: like allegiance to your guys's work is it speaks to them. 1046 00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:25,680 Speaker 2: And what I find very interesting is the business decision 1047 00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,160 Speaker 2: that the media made after the Bush era, after the 1048 00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:31,000 Speaker 2: Obama era, to walk away from having some of these 1049 00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:33,759 Speaker 2: much more challenging conversations. Seems to me like what you 1050 00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:35,479 Speaker 2: guys are doing at drop Site proves that. 1051 00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:35,920 Speaker 4: That was wrong. 1052 00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:40,120 Speaker 5: You know, I think I think that era that you're 1053 00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:42,800 Speaker 5: describing too. Let's remember there was a moment where where 1054 00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:46,880 Speaker 5: Chris Hayes was given a weekend spot on MSNBC. They 1055 00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:50,600 Speaker 5: was Up with Chris Hayes was yeah still yeah, still up. 1056 00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:55,279 Speaker 1: And I would go on that show a lot and 1057 00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:59,120 Speaker 1: he would have really interesting, diverse panels of people, and 1058 00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:01,560 Speaker 1: I thought it was really one of the best shows 1059 00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:04,960 Speaker 1: on television at the time because, uh, you know, you 1060 00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:07,520 Speaker 1: had you had people from different you know, he would 1061 00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:10,279 Speaker 1: have Eli lake On debating, you know, someone like me, 1062 00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:13,360 Speaker 1: and you know, there would be there was there was 1063 00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:18,880 Speaker 1: this intellectual opening that was so unusual for MSNBC at 1064 00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:21,200 Speaker 1: that time. I thought it was remarkable with what was 1065 00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:23,959 Speaker 1: happening on that on those weekends with with Chris Hayes, 1066 00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,560 Speaker 1: and of course that was you know, that was short lived. 1067 00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:31,440 Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean they've totally leaned into this identity 1068 00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:34,200 Speaker 1: as they are. They are the kind of media front 1069 00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:37,080 Speaker 1: that's going to prevent Orange Hitler from you know, taking power. 1070 00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:39,960 Speaker 1: And I have deep concerns about Donald Trump. I I 1071 00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:43,160 Speaker 1: I think that man is an utter disaster. I think 1072 00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:46,880 Speaker 1: that the narratives about you know, the narratives about Trump 1073 00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:49,680 Speaker 1: that his supporters and defenders try to offer up to 1074 00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:51,719 Speaker 1: people on the left, like, they just don't they don't 1075 00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:57,920 Speaker 1: hold any weight whatsoever. Did you hear that, Ryan, Well, no, 1076 00:48:58,040 --> 00:48:59,880 Speaker 1: I'm just I'm making it clear that I think that 1077 00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:05,160 Speaker 1: there is a way to to to to approach covering 1078 00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:09,520 Speaker 1: this election that is is not a mirror image of 1079 00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:13,279 Speaker 1: the critique Democrats offer of Fox News. And you know, 1080 00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:17,560 Speaker 1: I find it totally intellectually dishonest, and I think that 1081 00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:19,960 Speaker 1: it's it's not about whether it's fair to to Trump 1082 00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:22,520 Speaker 1: or not. It does a disservice to their own audience 1083 00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:25,279 Speaker 1: on the on the issue of the you know of 1084 00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:29,560 Speaker 1: the Gaza war. Uh, you know there news organization should 1085 00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:33,160 Speaker 1: be aggressively questioning Kamala Harris. She she wants to have 1086 00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:34,920 Speaker 1: it both ways. She is saying, oh, I've been a 1087 00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:38,319 Speaker 1: part of every single decision that's been made. But then 1088 00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:41,240 Speaker 1: you know, her supporters say, yeah, but she's not the president. 1089 00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:44,799 Speaker 1: But then every opportunity she's given to explain what she 1090 00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:48,120 Speaker 1: would do differently, she takes that opportunity to say nothing, nothing, 1091 00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:50,880 Speaker 1: I would I would do nothing differently, maybe the rhetoric 1092 00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:54,640 Speaker 1: would be different. And so, you know, I don't believe 1093 00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:58,279 Speaker 1: in pulling punches because the audience is going to be 1094 00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:01,759 Speaker 1: upset that you've landed them on powerful person. I think, 1095 00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:05,839 Speaker 1: to me, I don't see integrity in that. And so 1096 00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:08,239 Speaker 1: I think the people that are subscribing to drop site, 1097 00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:10,960 Speaker 1: they don't think that Ryan and I are right every 1098 00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:12,200 Speaker 1: single time, but I think they know. 1099 00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:14,600 Speaker 5: I think we've both proven over the course of. 1100 00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:17,880 Speaker 1: Our time in journalism that we are willing to apply 1101 00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:22,560 Speaker 1: the exact same standards of critique, analysis, investigation to democrats 1102 00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:24,600 Speaker 1: as we are to Republicans when they're in power. That 1103 00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:26,920 Speaker 1: should just be basic journalism. Though this isn't this shouldn't 1104 00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:27,800 Speaker 1: be something unusual. 1105 00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:31,000 Speaker 3: And I think even though we clearly have a perspective 1106 00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:34,160 Speaker 3: that we're coming from in our reporting, the fact that 1107 00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:37,799 Speaker 3: the perspective and the principle has stayed the same no 1108 00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:41,240 Speaker 3: matter which party is in power. Lets people who disagree 1109 00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:44,879 Speaker 3: with us read it and be like and let them 1110 00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:45,760 Speaker 3: think think for themselves. 1111 00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:48,960 Speaker 4: It's ironic. The mainstream media says that they're. 1112 00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:51,680 Speaker 3: The kind of you from nowhere, like they're the objective ones, 1113 00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:54,440 Speaker 3: or it's just the facts and we're going to let 1114 00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:59,600 Speaker 3: you decide, but in fact they're actually just They obviously 1115 00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:01,799 Speaker 3: have a person spective, everybody does, but it's very hard 1116 00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:04,680 Speaker 3: to tell what it is, and so people don't know 1117 00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:07,720 Speaker 3: when they're being fed propaganda, whereas with us, they're always 1118 00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:10,560 Speaker 3: getting our perspective and so they can take it or 1119 00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:13,040 Speaker 3: leave it, but they know that the facts are going 1120 00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:13,319 Speaker 3: to be. 1121 00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:15,600 Speaker 5: A look at what we've seen. 1122 00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:19,200 Speaker 1: It highlights Ryan's point, but from a little bit of 1123 00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:22,920 Speaker 1: a different angle when you look at the broader corporate 1124 00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:27,960 Speaker 1: news or mainstream news coverage of Gaza, the view from 1125 00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:30,839 Speaker 1: nowhere is actually, if you drill down and say what's 1126 00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:34,400 Speaker 1: happening here, what's happening is that for the Palestinians of 1127 00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:36,719 Speaker 1: Gaza and increasingly of the West Bank, and certainly now 1128 00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:40,879 Speaker 1: the people of Lebanon. For their plight to be recognized, 1129 00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:44,440 Speaker 1: or for the crimes committed against them to be recognized 1130 00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:49,160 Speaker 1: as crimes, requires so much evidence that it makes it 1131 00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:52,799 Speaker 1: almost impossible for their humanity to be recognized in any. 1132 00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:54,120 Speaker 5: Just objective way. 1133 00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:57,879 Speaker 1: The assertions made by the Israeli state for an entire 1134 00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:01,360 Speaker 1: year straight are often treated as though there are facts, 1135 00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:05,000 Speaker 1: and you know when you look at the narrative around 1136 00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:10,040 Speaker 1: hospitals in Gaza or the number of people killed this administration, 1137 00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:13,000 Speaker 1: the Biden Harris administration, has promoted some of the most 1138 00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:18,560 Speaker 1: nefarious lies and propaganda of the Israeli state from the beginning, 1139 00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:23,080 Speaker 1: and news organizations, the framing of it is often that 1140 00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:27,600 Speaker 1: the you you trust but verify supposedly the Israelis, and 1141 00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:30,600 Speaker 1: with the Palestinians, there is no initial they must be 1142 00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:33,560 Speaker 1: lying and and but that that also if you if 1143 00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:35,920 Speaker 1: you apply it to American politics, there's the same kind 1144 00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:38,960 Speaker 1: of intellectual dishonesty at play there, and deference to the 1145 00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:42,399 Speaker 1: powerful that you see among immediately elite media toward their 1146 00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:43,520 Speaker 1: own preferred candidates. 1147 00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:46,400 Speaker 6: Or you don't trust the powerful, then verify. 1148 00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:50,120 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, I mean, and especially you should assume that 1149 00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:52,680 Speaker 1: the powerful are not telling you the truth. And and 1150 00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:54,560 Speaker 1: but it's your job then to go and you know, 1151 00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:58,239 Speaker 1: verify what the facts are. And that's that's that is 1152 00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:01,200 Speaker 1: the policy towards all Palestinians would have anything to say about. 1153 00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:03,160 Speaker 1: You know, you can have a child, you can have 1154 00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:09,080 Speaker 1: American doctors saying that they saw infants or tiny children 1155 00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:14,200 Speaker 1: shot with sniper bullets in the head in Gaza, and 1156 00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:17,680 Speaker 1: it's like it doesn't even make a dent in the 1157 00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:20,080 Speaker 1: public consciousness. I mean, think think about this. We have 1158 00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:24,480 Speaker 1: multiple doctors who sent this letter recently also to the administration, 1159 00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:27,000 Speaker 1: and they were saying, all of us have seen evidence 1160 00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:31,840 Speaker 1: or treated people where you have younger than teenage children being. 1161 00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:34,759 Speaker 5: Shot with sniper rounds there. And this is almost a 1162 00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:37,479 Speaker 5: non story, you know. I mean, right as we sit here, 1163 00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:41,960 Speaker 5: the Israelis are laying siege to the north of Gaza. 1164 00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:45,920 Speaker 5: They basically issued an order flee immediately or be considered 1165 00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:49,400 Speaker 5: a combatant. It's being done with US weapons, with the 1166 00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:51,719 Speaker 5: support of a president of the United States who goes 1167 00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:53,600 Speaker 5: out of his way constantly to say that he is 1168 00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:59,440 Speaker 5: a Zionist and that he continues to portray Israel's offensive 1169 00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:02,319 Speaker 5: actions as defense. I mean shame on. 1170 00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:05,360 Speaker 1: The broader press Corps for the way in which it 1171 00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:09,000 Speaker 1: has not held this administration accountable. But more than that, 1172 00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:13,160 Speaker 1: one hundred and seventy plus journalists have been killed in Gaza, 1173 00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:15,640 Speaker 1: almost all of them are Palestinians, and almost all of 1174 00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:20,400 Speaker 1: them have been killed by the Israeli government with American weapons. 1175 00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:23,160 Speaker 1: A Fox News reporter recently, I don't have his name, 1176 00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:26,840 Speaker 1: maybe yeah, thanks, their chief foreign correspondent, you know, he 1177 00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:29,759 Speaker 1: posted and I give him total credit for doing this. 1178 00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:32,160 Speaker 1: And actually this wasn't the first time that he made 1179 00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:34,719 Speaker 1: that point. He you know, Trey, through the months, he 1180 00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:37,399 Speaker 1: has consistently raised this issue. It might, you know, people 1181 00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:40,040 Speaker 1: might have criticisms of how he's done it. I give 1182 00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:43,960 Speaker 1: him immense credit because you look at some so called 1183 00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:46,919 Speaker 1: liberal journalists who have never had a word to say 1184 00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:51,000 Speaker 1: about Palestinian journalists being killed. It's also raises a point 1185 00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:53,759 Speaker 1: that goes back to something earlier when James Rosen at 1186 00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:56,400 Speaker 1: Fox News, when there was a you know, an investigation 1187 00:54:56,480 --> 00:54:59,480 Speaker 1: over him, you know, for this North Korea reporting that 1188 00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:01,520 Speaker 1: he had done. And it became clear that the government 1189 00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:05,000 Speaker 1: had been also reading his gmails. 1190 00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:08,839 Speaker 5: And I stood up and defended James Rosen post. 1191 00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:10,759 Speaker 4: We called for airic holder to resign over that. 1192 00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:14,400 Speaker 3: We're going after this Fox News National Security correspondent. 1193 00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:16,160 Speaker 6: I don't think that would happen at half Posts today. 1194 00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:19,480 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, if it happened today at drops, that 1195 00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:21,719 Speaker 1: we absolutely would report on it, you know, And it's 1196 00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:25,200 Speaker 1: you know, I think that a huge mistake is made 1197 00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:28,920 Speaker 1: when there's a core freedom that's being attacked in journalism. 1198 00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:30,920 Speaker 1: And this goes to the earlier question it comments to 1199 00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:32,880 Speaker 1: about cancel culture stuff, and then all of a sudden, 1200 00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:35,600 Speaker 1: the Palestine thing shows that all those people, almost all 1201 00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:38,160 Speaker 1: of them, were total frauds on that issue. But the 1202 00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:40,960 Speaker 1: same is true of media freedom. Like I believe the 1203 00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:45,240 Speaker 1: Russians had no business locking up Evan Gershkeovic in that prison, 1204 00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:48,319 Speaker 1: and I'm happy that the Wall Street Journal reporter was freed. 1205 00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:52,280 Speaker 1: And I saw all of these famous journalists, Jake Tapper 1206 00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:54,760 Speaker 1: and others every day putting up a thing about free Evan. 1207 00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:58,960 Speaker 1: Where are they on the traumatic head injury of a 1208 00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:02,480 Speaker 1: journalist in this week in Darryl al Bala, Where are 1209 00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:05,400 Speaker 1: they on the decapitating of Ismael Alghoul. Where are they 1210 00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:09,360 Speaker 1: on the mass murder of wild Daudoo's family, the former 1211 00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:11,680 Speaker 1: Al Jazeera bureau chief in Gaza. Where are they on 1212 00:56:11,719 --> 00:56:14,400 Speaker 1: the killing of any of these journalists. 1213 00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:16,520 Speaker 4: Who wrote for drops? 1214 00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:21,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, even before the Gaza October seventh justification, an American 1215 00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:26,160 Speaker 1: citizen quite clearly assassinated in the West Bank. 1216 00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:30,000 Speaker 5: You know, the Biden administration. 1217 00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:32,520 Speaker 1: Has uh and the FBI under Biden has not done 1218 00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:35,160 Speaker 1: anywhere near the kind of aggressive investigation that they should 1219 00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:38,040 Speaker 1: be doing about this killing of an American citizen by 1220 00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:40,640 Speaker 1: an American ally when she was doing her job as 1221 00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:44,480 Speaker 1: an award winning journalist. But I say shame on all 1222 00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:46,760 Speaker 1: of these people who have never had a word to say. 1223 00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:49,640 Speaker 1: The fact that a Fox News journalist issued one of 1224 00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:52,680 Speaker 1: the strongest condemnations of the killing of Palestinian journalists by 1225 00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:57,200 Speaker 1: any mainstream American journalists under itself as a damning condemnation 1226 00:56:57,360 --> 00:57:00,520 Speaker 1: of the so called liberal media. 1227 00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:05,319 Speaker 3: To close the arc on consistency too, uh, the Edward 1228 00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:09,040 Speaker 3: Snowden League, YEA, so what what you know? How'd you 1229 00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:10,640 Speaker 3: learn about what was your role with Glenn on that? 1230 00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:12,880 Speaker 3: Because you and Glenn and Laura then go on to 1231 00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:15,960 Speaker 3: found the intercept, So I mean Glen. 1232 00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:19,200 Speaker 1: You know, Glenn and I had known each other for 1233 00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:22,840 Speaker 1: some years, and you know when he started when he 1234 00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:26,800 Speaker 1: started his blog and then he was at Salon. You know, 1235 00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:29,000 Speaker 1: there was a lot of overlap when we got to 1236 00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:32,560 Speaker 1: know each other sort of you know, online, and and 1237 00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:35,200 Speaker 1: had only met a couple of times in person. And 1238 00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:37,880 Speaker 1: I don't remember how far ahead of it was, but 1239 00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:40,360 Speaker 1: like some it could have been days or maybe a 1240 00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:45,000 Speaker 1: couple of weeks before Glenn and Laura flew to Hong 1241 00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:47,439 Speaker 1: Kong to meet Edward Snowden, Glenn had gotten in touch 1242 00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:51,240 Speaker 1: with me and said, uh, I remember I was actually 1243 00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:54,200 Speaker 1: at I was. I was at a restaurant with Michael Rattner, 1244 00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:56,920 Speaker 1: the late head of the Center for Constitutional Rights, who 1245 00:57:56,920 --> 00:57:58,760 Speaker 1: was a dear friend of mine, one of the greatest 1246 00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:00,120 Speaker 1: lawyers in American history. 1247 00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:02,160 Speaker 5: And I see I have this call from Glenn. 1248 00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:03,840 Speaker 1: So I step out and I talked to Glenn, and 1249 00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:06,600 Speaker 1: Glenn says, I can't tell you much about this, but 1250 00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:08,680 Speaker 1: I want, you know, I want I need somebody I 1251 00:58:08,680 --> 00:58:11,080 Speaker 1: trust that can be sort of my contact person for 1252 00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:11,720 Speaker 1: something I'm. 1253 00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:12,280 Speaker 5: Going to be doing. 1254 00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:14,360 Speaker 1: I'm going to be flying, you know, to the other 1255 00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:18,920 Speaker 1: side of the world to meet someone who has information that, 1256 00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:22,360 Speaker 1: if it's true and valid, is is going to be 1257 00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:26,240 Speaker 1: a volcanic explosion to the national security state. That was 1258 00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:28,400 Speaker 1: how Glenn had described it. And he said, you know, 1259 00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:31,400 Speaker 1: can you can you be available? And I said, of 1260 00:58:31,400 --> 00:58:35,800 Speaker 1: course yeah. And you know, so Glenn, they they go 1261 00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:38,120 Speaker 1: and you know, I we had developed a way to 1262 00:58:38,120 --> 00:58:39,920 Speaker 1: be in touch. So Glenn was just sort of you 1263 00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:41,160 Speaker 1: know a lot of journalists do this when you go 1264 00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:43,160 Speaker 1: to a dangerous place. You have somebody that you always 1265 00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:46,520 Speaker 1: touch base with when you're in a place. So so 1266 00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:48,360 Speaker 1: for you know, in a very behind the scenes way, 1267 00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:50,320 Speaker 1: I was. I was honored to, like when I then 1268 00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:52,960 Speaker 1: realized what it was, you know, honored to to have helped. 1269 00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:55,040 Speaker 5: But I wasn't like, you know, in on the snowedn 1270 00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:55,800 Speaker 5: thing it was. 1271 00:58:56,000 --> 00:58:59,000 Speaker 1: You know, I played a very minor role in helping 1272 00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:01,080 Speaker 1: out a friend and a colleague league who you know, 1273 00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:03,240 Speaker 1: I was going into what he described as a potentially 1274 00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:05,880 Speaker 1: dangerous situation and and I knew enough to not ask 1275 00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:08,680 Speaker 1: him any more detail about it. And so you know, 1276 00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:10,560 Speaker 1: there was a battle in The Guardian too that took 1277 00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:12,560 Speaker 1: place at the beginning of this. You know, the god 1278 00:59:12,560 --> 00:59:14,520 Speaker 1: that of course, the you know, the the White House 1279 00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:15,160 Speaker 1: pushes back. 1280 00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:16,040 Speaker 5: Immensely against this. 1281 00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:18,720 Speaker 1: I think they were only just starting to realize the 1282 00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:20,920 Speaker 1: problem and there was some question of whether it was 1283 00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:23,960 Speaker 1: gonna ended up getting published in The Guardian. So Glenn 1284 00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:26,800 Speaker 1: had asked me to work on a backdoor alternative. So 1285 00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:29,560 Speaker 1: we actually started talking to other news outlets about publishing 1286 00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:32,160 Speaker 1: it if The Guardian didn't publish that first story, you know, 1287 00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:34,240 Speaker 1: right out of the Gates, which they ended up doing, 1288 00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:35,640 Speaker 1: and they want to pullet serve for the you know, 1289 00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:38,800 Speaker 1: for the series. But I would imagine the yeah, the 1290 00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:40,680 Speaker 1: pressure that all of them were under. So you know, 1291 00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:44,600 Speaker 1: then then I'm visiting Glenn, you know, after that down 1292 00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:48,680 Speaker 1: in Brazil with his like five bazillion monkey dogs and 1293 00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:50,600 Speaker 1: monkeys and other things in his thing and. 1294 00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:52,080 Speaker 6: Ut the zoo. 1295 00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:54,280 Speaker 5: Yeah, you didn't need to go to Yeah, you'd be there, 1296 00:59:54,320 --> 00:59:54,840 Speaker 5: you know, Glenn. 1297 00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:57,120 Speaker 1: Glenn is sitting there with like you know, he's he's 1298 00:59:57,120 --> 00:59:59,400 Speaker 1: got his laptop, he's wearing his Bermuda shorts and his 1299 00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:03,120 Speaker 1: flip flop and he's sitting there just completely taking on 1300 01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:06,320 Speaker 1: the most powerful government in the world, you know, with 1301 01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:08,280 Speaker 1: with his Bermuda shorts on and it was. I mean, 1302 01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:11,120 Speaker 1: it's it's Glenn is one of the most unusual interesting 1303 01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:14,120 Speaker 1: people that I've i've you know, that I've ever met, 1304 01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:17,440 Speaker 1: and and we ended up starting, uh, you know, starting 1305 01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:20,400 Speaker 1: the Intercept with you know, Glenn and Laura and myself 1306 01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:23,040 Speaker 1: and you know, related to drop site too, Like what 1307 01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:26,360 Speaker 1: remember what the Intercept was actually started to do? You 1308 01:00:26,360 --> 01:00:29,080 Speaker 1: know that the purpose of it was, you know, was 1309 01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:31,600 Speaker 1: to try to publish secrets that the government wanted to 1310 01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:34,880 Speaker 1: you know, want to remain locked up, to provide a 1311 01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:39,360 Speaker 1: platform for whistleblowers and others to to speak out and 1312 01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:44,000 Speaker 1: to do no holds barred journalism without fear or favor, 1313 01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:44,360 Speaker 1: you know. 1314 01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:45,720 Speaker 5: And and I. 1315 01:00:45,640 --> 01:00:48,480 Speaker 1: Think that's you know, we're we're trying to embrace that 1316 01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:52,720 Speaker 1: original ethos of the Intercept at you know, at drop Site. 1317 01:00:53,320 --> 01:00:55,120 Speaker 2: Well, can you guys actually maybe talk about that, because 1318 01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:58,960 Speaker 2: I don't know if you've ever talked publicly together about 1319 01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:01,960 Speaker 2: whether it's been hard to watch what happened to the 1320 01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:04,800 Speaker 2: Intercept when you're on the inside. But also it has 1321 01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:07,120 Speaker 2: created a wonderful new product and drop Site. So what 1322 01:01:07,160 --> 01:01:08,920 Speaker 2: has that just been like for both of you? 1323 01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:11,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm curious for Jeremy say you know, institutions evolved. 1324 01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:16,960 Speaker 3: And also, like two years ago Piero Midyard who was 1325 01:01:17,440 --> 01:01:20,160 Speaker 3: made an initial like two hundred and fifty million dollar 1326 01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:21,040 Speaker 3: pledge I think it was. 1327 01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:23,919 Speaker 5: That wasn't to the Intercept though, it was the whole thing. 1328 01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:25,480 Speaker 4: It's been misreported a little bit. 1329 01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:27,840 Speaker 5: Yeah, people people exaggerate what the Internet was going to 1330 01:01:27,840 --> 01:01:29,720 Speaker 5: do well with their magazine. He wanted to He was 1331 01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:31,800 Speaker 5: considering buying the Washing Post, is what happened, and that's 1332 01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:32,880 Speaker 5: where that number came from. 1333 01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:33,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right. 1334 01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:36,080 Speaker 3: He wanted to buy the washing Post that was going 1335 01:01:36,120 --> 01:01:38,400 Speaker 3: to cost two fifty and he's like, well, why don't 1336 01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:40,440 Speaker 3: I just spend two fifteen build my own? Right, And 1337 01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:43,439 Speaker 3: he was going to do Racket by Matt Taibi, which 1338 01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:46,000 Speaker 3: was going to look at you know, economics and like corruption. 1339 01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:48,680 Speaker 4: Then he was going to do sports and leisure. 1340 01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:51,120 Speaker 1: That was going to be like an omnibus news organization, 1341 01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:54,400 Speaker 1: was my recollection, Yeah, like a good The Intercept was 1342 01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:56,120 Speaker 1: going to be like a vertical basically within it. 1343 01:01:56,200 --> 01:01:57,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, and like a good VC. 1344 01:01:57,360 --> 01:02:00,080 Speaker 3: He was buying at the top, like this was thee 1345 01:02:00,240 --> 01:02:03,400 Speaker 3: of digital media basically, and it collapsed after that. And 1346 01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:05,760 Speaker 3: so the only one that ever got off the ground 1347 01:02:05,960 --> 01:02:08,600 Speaker 3: was the Intercept because he cared about it not as 1348 01:02:08,600 --> 01:02:10,920 Speaker 3: a commercial product. The other ones were supposed to be 1349 01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:13,520 Speaker 3: commercially successful products, and he cared about it, and it 1350 01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:17,959 Speaker 3: very quickly became clear there was no digital like possibility there. 1351 01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:21,160 Speaker 3: But yeah, he cared about the idea of having a 1352 01:02:21,160 --> 01:02:24,240 Speaker 3: well funded news organization that would take on like these 1353 01:02:24,320 --> 01:02:27,920 Speaker 3: national security state projects, and that had a legal defense fund, 1354 01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:31,400 Speaker 3: which is very important. Yeah, because you're constantly getting lawsuit threats. 1355 01:02:31,440 --> 01:02:32,760 Speaker 6: It turned out to be very important. 1356 01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:33,040 Speaker 5: Yeah. 1357 01:02:33,040 --> 01:02:36,640 Speaker 1: One thing that's also incredible, like the Looney Tunes stuff 1358 01:02:36,640 --> 01:02:39,360 Speaker 1: that sometimes gets thrown at us about the Intercept and 1359 01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:42,520 Speaker 1: about Omitir and all of this, is you know that 1360 01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:44,800 Speaker 1: Omiitir was somehow in control and doing all these things. 1361 01:02:46,000 --> 01:02:51,760 Speaker 1: It was remarkable how much freedom pier Omidiar gave to 1362 01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:52,880 Speaker 1: the people that he. 1363 01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:54,960 Speaker 5: Was funding entirely himself. 1364 01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:57,240 Speaker 1: I mean, one of the first stories that we did 1365 01:02:57,280 --> 01:03:01,840 Speaker 1: at the Intercept actually was quite critical of Omitiar himself. 1366 01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:05,840 Speaker 1: And there was never there was never a takedown order, 1367 01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:08,600 Speaker 1: there was never pressure, There was never oh I want 1368 01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:11,280 Speaker 1: you guys to cover this it nothing, never did a 1369 01:03:11,320 --> 01:03:14,480 Speaker 1: single thing like that ever occur, which is you know, 1370 01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:15,800 Speaker 1: which is remarkable all of us. 1371 01:03:15,840 --> 01:03:17,600 Speaker 5: I think we're feeling like a day is going to 1372 01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:18,040 Speaker 5: come when. 1373 01:03:17,960 --> 01:03:19,480 Speaker 1: These guys are going to tell us you can't do 1374 01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:25,280 Speaker 1: this story And to his credit, that never happened with Omidiars. 1375 01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:27,120 Speaker 3: Politics were different than certainly different than Glenn's. He was 1376 01:03:27,160 --> 01:03:28,200 Speaker 3: like a Russia Gate guy. 1377 01:03:29,080 --> 01:03:30,680 Speaker 5: Later, yeah, I mean at the beginning, his whole thing 1378 01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:32,200 Speaker 5: was about you know, he was I think he was 1379 01:03:32,280 --> 01:03:36,800 Speaker 5: really deeply moved by Edward Snowden. He was really concerned. 1380 01:03:36,760 --> 01:03:41,200 Speaker 1: About civil liberties and privacy issues, and I think that 1381 01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:43,760 Speaker 1: was his motivation at the beginning, was that he felt like, 1382 01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:47,480 Speaker 1: this is a crossroads moment in the history of the 1383 01:03:47,520 --> 01:03:52,200 Speaker 1: American Empire, with this epic, courageous whistleblowing moment. 1384 01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:55,439 Speaker 2: What about ahead. I was just saying, like, personally too, 1385 01:03:55,560 --> 01:03:58,000 Speaker 2: what was that like? Not with a minyar, but just 1386 01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:01,000 Speaker 2: you know, there are people's who's added to towards things 1387 01:04:01,040 --> 01:04:04,360 Speaker 2: like surveillance. Really did shift because now there's all this 1388 01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:08,400 Speaker 2: talk of having this vast digital censorship apparatus, and sometimes 1389 01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:10,560 Speaker 2: that's justified by people who would have been on the 1390 01:04:10,560 --> 01:04:13,240 Speaker 2: other side of the Snowden question ten plus years ago. 1391 01:04:13,680 --> 01:04:16,000 Speaker 2: And I imagine personally that's not been super easy. 1392 01:04:16,680 --> 01:04:22,120 Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, politics change, and this is not the 1393 01:04:22,240 --> 01:04:24,760 Speaker 3: Edward Stoden era anymore. It's almost like the NSA one, 1394 01:04:25,560 --> 01:04:28,760 Speaker 3: Like Snowden exposed everything that was going on did lead 1395 01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:31,080 Speaker 3: to you know, did lead to reforms. 1396 01:04:31,560 --> 01:04:33,680 Speaker 4: There are ongoing fights over. 1397 01:04:33,560 --> 01:04:38,920 Speaker 3: FIZA and FISA Court, and it's like we've covered the 1398 01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:42,880 Speaker 3: fights here. There's this kind of transpartisan coalition of like 1399 01:04:42,960 --> 01:04:47,320 Speaker 3: libertarians and progressives who are still taking these issues pretty 1400 01:04:47,360 --> 01:04:51,440 Speaker 3: seriously about mass collection and what you can search through. 1401 01:04:51,360 --> 01:04:51,640 Speaker 5: Some of it. 1402 01:04:51,720 --> 01:04:53,760 Speaker 6: Project twenty twenty five by the way, excellent. 1403 01:04:54,040 --> 01:04:57,360 Speaker 3: But the public is the public is like is extremely 1404 01:04:57,360 --> 01:05:00,440 Speaker 3: cynical about it and just believes that they already have 1405 01:05:00,520 --> 01:05:03,960 Speaker 3: access to everything, and so what's the point in fighting it? 1406 01:05:04,160 --> 01:05:05,960 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's also I mean to one of 1407 01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:10,360 Speaker 1: Emily's earlier points too, you know, uh, when when when 1408 01:05:10,640 --> 01:05:14,000 Speaker 1: when the Obama administration was doing these drone assassinations, and 1409 01:05:14,080 --> 01:05:17,600 Speaker 1: really and and and and the poll support for among 1410 01:05:17,640 --> 01:05:21,280 Speaker 1: liberals for targeted assassination, you know, drone strikes was going 1411 01:05:21,320 --> 01:05:25,840 Speaker 1: you know, was was going up because mister constitutional law scholar, uh, 1412 01:05:26,160 --> 01:05:31,800 Speaker 1: Barack Obama had normalized this for an entire class of voters. 1413 01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:32,680 Speaker 6: Community organizer. 1414 01:05:33,080 --> 01:05:35,040 Speaker 1: But but if you remember, you know, some of the 1415 01:05:35,080 --> 01:05:37,520 Speaker 1: heroes on Capitol Hill of that moment, you know who 1416 01:05:37,560 --> 01:05:40,040 Speaker 1: really did have the courage to speak out at a 1417 01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:40,680 Speaker 1: high level. 1418 01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:42,120 Speaker 5: You know, you had Ron Wyden. 1419 01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:46,880 Speaker 1: You had Rand Paul in fact, right, you know, Rand 1420 01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:50,800 Speaker 1: Paul on multiple occasions participated in kind of disrupting business 1421 01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:53,280 Speaker 1: as usual on the floor of the Senate to speak 1422 01:05:53,320 --> 01:05:57,320 Speaker 1: out about you know, the assassination regime that had been 1423 01:05:57,640 --> 01:05:58,520 Speaker 1: put into place there. 1424 01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:02,320 Speaker 5: I mean, even you know Michael at times, you know, 1425 01:06:02,320 --> 01:06:03,120 Speaker 5: and might Micha Lee. 1426 01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:06,000 Speaker 1: Ran Paul has been very consistent on these issues throughout 1427 01:06:06,160 --> 01:06:08,840 Speaker 1: you know, the aftermath of the launch of the so 1428 01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:11,120 Speaker 1: called war on Terror. But Mike Lee at times too, 1429 01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:15,120 Speaker 1: has actually made really good points about issues that should 1430 01:06:15,160 --> 01:06:18,800 Speaker 1: be bread and butter issues for liberals. One thing I 1431 01:06:18,800 --> 01:06:20,840 Speaker 1: was thinking about last night in anticipation of talking to 1432 01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:24,800 Speaker 1: you guys also was just how utterly militaristic the Democratic 1433 01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:28,200 Speaker 1: Party has become when it's in power, you know, I mean, 1434 01:06:28,280 --> 01:06:32,480 Speaker 1: in the eight years of Obama, you look at the 1435 01:06:32,520 --> 01:06:35,640 Speaker 1: initiation of the air wars in Yemen that then led 1436 01:06:35,680 --> 01:06:38,840 Speaker 1: to a kind of genocidal situation with the Saudi air wars. 1437 01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:42,240 Speaker 1: But you know, Obama, months after taking office in two 1438 01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:47,480 Speaker 1: thousand and nine, authorizes a series of secret air strikes 1439 01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:52,240 Speaker 1: in Yemen. The first one killed dozens of civilians in 1440 01:06:52,280 --> 01:06:55,160 Speaker 1: a cruise missile attack, and they also used cluster you know, 1441 01:06:55,200 --> 01:06:58,080 Speaker 1: cluster bombs, cluster munitions, and they allowed the Yemeni government 1442 01:06:58,120 --> 01:07:01,520 Speaker 1: to take responsibility for it. But had you know, Obama 1443 01:07:01,560 --> 01:07:04,800 Speaker 1: intensifying the war with the war within the war in Afghanistan. 1444 01:07:06,040 --> 01:07:09,760 Speaker 1: You you had the expansion of the drone strikes into 1445 01:07:09,760 --> 01:07:14,720 Speaker 1: Somalia into Yemen, then the support for the Saudi attacks 1446 01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:19,440 Speaker 1: in Yemen itself. This was a very militaristic administration throughout 1447 01:07:19,480 --> 01:07:23,240 Speaker 1: the course of those eight years. And then with Biden, 1448 01:07:24,280 --> 01:07:26,600 Speaker 1: who you know, seldom in his fifty plus years in 1449 01:07:26,640 --> 01:07:29,200 Speaker 1: politics has met a US war. He didn't love support 1450 01:07:29,560 --> 01:07:30,880 Speaker 1: or facilitator. 1451 01:07:30,360 --> 01:07:31,000 Speaker 5: At able in some way. 1452 01:07:31,040 --> 01:07:33,480 Speaker 1: In fact, he made a mistake, you know, in the 1453 01:07:33,560 --> 01:07:36,240 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one you know Gulf War. He he you know, 1454 01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:38,360 Speaker 1: opposed it, but then quickly. 1455 01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:40,360 Speaker 4: Backtracked and the one popular. 1456 01:07:40,040 --> 01:07:42,560 Speaker 5: On oh oops, I made a mistake. 1457 01:07:42,600 --> 01:07:45,040 Speaker 4: Yes, I actually had never against the war again. 1458 01:07:45,440 --> 01:07:48,440 Speaker 1: But we're, I mean, we're we're seeing the face of 1459 01:07:48,480 --> 01:07:51,480 Speaker 1: a powerful part of the Democratic Party in this policy 1460 01:07:51,560 --> 01:07:54,600 Speaker 1: over the past year in Israel. I mean it had 1461 01:07:54,720 --> 01:07:57,440 Speaker 1: had the had this not happened, what would we have 1462 01:07:57,480 --> 01:07:59,560 Speaker 1: talked about on a foreign policy level with Biden when 1463 01:07:59,560 --> 01:08:03,160 Speaker 1: it comes to Pitism. Certainly, the you know, the Ukraine issue, 1464 01:08:03,600 --> 01:08:08,600 Speaker 1: and you know the the aggressive support for Ukraine, the 1465 01:08:08,680 --> 01:08:10,800 Speaker 1: kind of Cold War, the embrace of the Cold War 1466 01:08:10,840 --> 01:08:13,080 Speaker 1: two point zero, that certainly would have been part of 1467 01:08:13,080 --> 01:08:16,240 Speaker 1: what we were talking about with Biden. The Afghanistan withdrawal. Yes, 1468 01:08:16,320 --> 01:08:20,360 Speaker 1: this was a horrifying catastrophe that had occurred. I think 1469 01:08:20,439 --> 01:08:24,400 Speaker 1: there's a legitimate, certainly line of attack and criticism against 1470 01:08:24,439 --> 01:08:28,400 Speaker 1: Biden for how that was handled. But largely speaking, Biden 1471 01:08:28,479 --> 01:08:31,840 Speaker 1: implemented a plan that was on the desk when Trump 1472 01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:34,800 Speaker 1: left office. There was a thwarting of Trump. Trump really 1473 01:08:34,800 --> 01:08:37,880 Speaker 1: did was trying to get this done in his first administration. 1474 01:08:38,240 --> 01:08:40,760 Speaker 1: I think he also deluded himself into assuming he was 1475 01:08:40,800 --> 01:08:42,920 Speaker 1: going to be president for four more years. But also 1476 01:08:43,240 --> 01:08:48,120 Speaker 1: the military industrial political complex did not They did not 1477 01:08:48,200 --> 01:08:50,080 Speaker 1: want this to happen under Trump. So and Biden is 1478 01:08:50,120 --> 01:08:52,080 Speaker 1: the kind of empire politician that could make that happen, 1479 01:08:52,080 --> 01:08:54,160 Speaker 1: and he did make it happen, and at the time. 1480 01:08:54,200 --> 01:08:55,479 Speaker 1: I wrote an op ed in The New York Times 1481 01:08:55,520 --> 01:08:58,120 Speaker 1: giving Biden credit for actually doing it and saying that 1482 01:08:58,160 --> 01:09:01,040 Speaker 1: he shouldn't listen to hawkish voices like Hillary Clinton and 1483 01:09:01,080 --> 01:09:04,000 Speaker 1: others who were agitating against it at the time. But 1484 01:09:04,479 --> 01:09:06,840 Speaker 1: we didn't just see Biden do the typical American we 1485 01:09:06,960 --> 01:09:10,240 Speaker 1: support Israel. He went all in in, you know, over 1486 01:09:10,280 --> 01:09:13,920 Speaker 1: the top way over this past year, and it may 1487 01:09:13,960 --> 01:09:16,200 Speaker 1: well cost Kamala Harris the White House. 1488 01:09:16,840 --> 01:09:19,479 Speaker 2: Well, you've landed some interviews at drop site that a 1489 01:09:19,479 --> 01:09:21,640 Speaker 2: lot of people in the media would be envious of 1490 01:09:21,720 --> 01:09:23,200 Speaker 2: and wish that they would have had. And I know, 1491 01:09:23,320 --> 01:09:24,760 Speaker 2: Ryan and I want to talk a little bit about 1492 01:09:24,960 --> 01:09:29,040 Speaker 2: just process as a journalist, what it's like when you 1493 01:09:29,080 --> 01:09:33,360 Speaker 2: were interviewing somebody, let's say that's high up in Hamas 1494 01:09:33,520 --> 01:09:37,040 Speaker 2: or anybody that actually finds himself in that or that 1495 01:09:37,160 --> 01:09:38,599 Speaker 2: you find yourself in that situation. 1496 01:09:38,680 --> 01:09:39,760 Speaker 6: Do you have anything to add to it? 1497 01:09:41,640 --> 01:09:45,240 Speaker 1: If you go back and think about you, You're Osama 1498 01:09:45,280 --> 01:09:48,840 Speaker 1: bin Laden was interviewed by CNN prior you know, prior 1499 01:09:48,880 --> 01:09:52,880 Speaker 1: to uh to nine to eleven, and uh, you know, 1500 01:09:53,000 --> 01:09:56,600 Speaker 1: and uh there was there used to be an understanding 1501 01:09:57,360 --> 01:09:59,160 Speaker 1: you can go back to World War two, and look 1502 01:09:59,200 --> 01:10:03,439 Speaker 1: at American journal less interviewing Nazi officials and uh, you know, 1503 01:10:03,479 --> 01:10:03,920 Speaker 1: and others. 1504 01:10:03,960 --> 01:10:06,479 Speaker 5: You can go through all all sorts of wars. 1505 01:10:06,680 --> 01:10:10,679 Speaker 1: The people that you're you're told are the enemy, journalists 1506 01:10:10,680 --> 01:10:13,479 Speaker 1: should have an ethical obligation go and interview those people 1507 01:10:14,280 --> 01:10:17,360 Speaker 1: and to tell their readers back in their home country 1508 01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:20,840 Speaker 1: what the objective reality looks. 1509 01:10:20,560 --> 01:10:21,280 Speaker 5: Like on the ground. 1510 01:10:22,320 --> 01:10:25,160 Speaker 1: And you know, I think objectivity as defined in our 1511 01:10:25,680 --> 01:10:29,559 Speaker 1: elite media culture is nonsense, you know, objective. You know, 1512 01:10:30,080 --> 01:10:33,479 Speaker 1: Caesar doesn't always deserve his say, you know, like they're 1513 01:10:34,240 --> 01:10:36,000 Speaker 1: What's what matters is are you being accurate? 1514 01:10:36,080 --> 01:10:36,880 Speaker 5: Are you being fair? 1515 01:10:37,120 --> 01:10:37,200 Speaker 2: Like? 1516 01:10:37,280 --> 01:10:39,840 Speaker 1: Are you characterizing that person's position in a fair way. 1517 01:10:39,960 --> 01:10:42,800 Speaker 1: If you're making a serious allegation about someone, you have 1518 01:10:42,840 --> 01:10:46,160 Speaker 1: an ethical obligation to get their response to it. You 1519 01:10:46,160 --> 01:10:50,679 Speaker 1: you are not obligated to pretend as though person X says, 1520 01:10:50,680 --> 01:10:51,959 Speaker 1: this person X says. 1521 01:10:51,760 --> 01:10:53,479 Speaker 5: Why, well, we just don't know what's true. 1522 01:10:53,520 --> 01:10:56,120 Speaker 1: If you know that person X is largely telling the 1523 01:10:56,120 --> 01:10:58,679 Speaker 1: truth and person why is not, you you also haven't 1524 01:10:58,680 --> 01:11:01,160 Speaker 1: a responsibility to tell your readers that. So, you know, 1525 01:11:01,479 --> 01:11:03,800 Speaker 1: in terms of interviewing, Yeah, we got attacked a lot 1526 01:11:04,680 --> 01:11:06,920 Speaker 1: because I did a series of articles where I interviewed 1527 01:11:06,920 --> 01:11:10,639 Speaker 1: senior officials from Hamas and also the number two figure 1528 01:11:10,720 --> 01:11:12,439 Speaker 1: in Palestinian Islamic Jihad. 1529 01:11:13,240 --> 01:11:15,320 Speaker 5: And we knew we were going to take heat. 1530 01:11:15,120 --> 01:11:17,240 Speaker 1: For this because we didn't just say, you know, we 1531 01:11:17,479 --> 01:11:20,160 Speaker 1: didn't just ask them the kind of three questions that 1532 01:11:20,200 --> 01:11:21,680 Speaker 1: are allowed, you know, that are allowed of any of 1533 01:11:21,720 --> 01:11:22,360 Speaker 1: these officials. 1534 01:11:22,439 --> 01:11:24,519 Speaker 3: I told them he should ask all the Hamas officials 1535 01:11:24,520 --> 01:11:29,400 Speaker 3: if they condemn Hamas, but do you Condemnmas? 1536 01:11:30,120 --> 01:11:31,080 Speaker 5: But what you know? So? 1537 01:11:31,520 --> 01:11:34,200 Speaker 1: And I did ask, you know, I asked the questions 1538 01:11:34,200 --> 01:11:36,360 Speaker 1: that you hear when you do see clips of them, 1539 01:11:36,640 --> 01:11:40,280 Speaker 1: you know, about the killing of civilians on October seventh 1540 01:11:40,280 --> 01:11:42,720 Speaker 1: and other you know, I mean, I of course I 1541 01:11:42,760 --> 01:11:46,200 Speaker 1: did all of that questioning. I don't find some of 1542 01:11:46,240 --> 01:11:48,360 Speaker 1: the answers very satisfying at all, you know that that 1543 01:11:48,400 --> 01:11:48,960 Speaker 1: these guys gave. 1544 01:11:49,240 --> 01:11:51,000 Speaker 4: And I have, you know, I have different answers they 1545 01:11:51,000 --> 01:11:51,800 Speaker 4: haven't eve figured out. 1546 01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:53,439 Speaker 2: Which comes through the interview, by the way, which is 1547 01:11:53,479 --> 01:11:54,720 Speaker 2: why you do the interview, right. 1548 01:11:54,720 --> 01:11:57,320 Speaker 1: But what I think, what I think is is important 1549 01:11:57,439 --> 01:12:01,240 Speaker 1: is if we you know, we're being told that Israel 1550 01:12:01,520 --> 01:12:06,440 Speaker 1: deserves to have an endless supply of weapons produced, manufactured 1551 01:12:06,560 --> 01:12:09,240 Speaker 1: authorized for sale or transfer by the government of the 1552 01:12:09,240 --> 01:12:11,120 Speaker 1: country that we're citizens of and that we live it. 1553 01:12:11,479 --> 01:12:13,560 Speaker 1: That right, there is a starting point for journalists have 1554 01:12:13,600 --> 01:12:14,720 Speaker 1: an obligation to track that. 1555 01:12:15,120 --> 01:12:16,280 Speaker 5: You know, is. 1556 01:12:18,040 --> 01:12:20,519 Speaker 1: This speaking on behalf of the public. Is it being 1557 01:12:20,600 --> 01:12:22,280 Speaker 1: used in a way that's consistent with law, you know, 1558 01:12:22,320 --> 01:12:27,360 Speaker 1: for instance, But also we're being told that Hamas and 1559 01:12:27,400 --> 01:12:31,120 Speaker 1: Palestinian Islamic Jihad are the modern day equivalent of the Nazis. 1560 01:12:31,280 --> 01:12:34,720 Speaker 1: Repeatedly they're compared to the Nazis. You know, there's an 1561 01:12:34,800 --> 01:12:38,320 Speaker 1: upside down world narrative about this, where you know, the 1562 01:12:39,240 --> 01:12:43,000 Speaker 1: roughly one thy one hundred Israelis and foreign workers who 1563 01:12:43,040 --> 01:12:46,960 Speaker 1: died on October seventh, their lives must exist in a 1564 01:12:47,000 --> 01:12:51,800 Speaker 1: realm of importance that is a universe away from the 1565 01:12:51,840 --> 01:12:54,400 Speaker 1: lives of any Palestinians that we have at a minimum 1566 01:12:54,479 --> 01:12:57,920 Speaker 1: forty one thousand Palestinians who have been killed with US, 1567 01:12:58,000 --> 01:13:00,960 Speaker 1: largely with US weapons over the past year. Their humanity 1568 01:13:01,080 --> 01:13:04,160 Speaker 1: is degraded to an almost meaningless piece of dust on 1569 01:13:04,200 --> 01:13:08,120 Speaker 1: the ground in the narrative compared to any Israeli who 1570 01:13:08,120 --> 01:13:10,799 Speaker 1: was killed on October seventh. But if we're being told 1571 01:13:11,080 --> 01:13:13,679 Speaker 1: that this these are the modern equivalents of the Nazi Party, 1572 01:13:13,920 --> 01:13:15,960 Speaker 1: Journalists have an obligation to go, let's talk to them, 1573 01:13:16,080 --> 01:13:18,519 Speaker 1: Let's understand what is their idea. I think it was 1574 01:13:18,800 --> 01:13:21,519 Speaker 1: too great public interest here. What did they think they 1575 01:13:21,520 --> 01:13:25,160 Speaker 1: were doing on October seventh? And then after seeing all 1576 01:13:25,200 --> 01:13:28,800 Speaker 1: of the incredible destruction in Gaza, how they assessed what 1577 01:13:28,960 --> 01:13:32,320 Speaker 1: has happened in the time since then, How they answered 1578 01:13:32,320 --> 01:13:35,320 Speaker 1: to the question that you should have foreseen that Israel 1579 01:13:35,360 --> 01:13:37,759 Speaker 1: would do this. You've endured this for seventy six years, 1580 01:13:37,800 --> 01:13:40,000 Speaker 1: beginning with the Nakba and the creation of the state 1581 01:13:40,040 --> 01:13:43,040 Speaker 1: of Israel. How could you not have assessed that if 1582 01:13:43,080 --> 01:13:46,320 Speaker 1: you were able to get into Israel and take two 1583 01:13:46,439 --> 01:13:50,360 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty people either hostage or prisoner, depending on 1584 01:13:50,400 --> 01:13:53,920 Speaker 1: whether they were civilians or soldiers. I mean, another interesting 1585 01:13:53,960 --> 01:13:56,599 Speaker 1: thing I said to them, to multiple Hamas and Islamic 1586 01:13:56,640 --> 01:14:02,479 Speaker 1: Jiad officials, like taking elderly women, babies, Like what what 1587 01:14:02,520 --> 01:14:05,200 Speaker 1: were you thinking? Like how do you think that's defensible? 1588 01:14:05,760 --> 01:14:08,880 Speaker 1: And none of them tried to defend it. What they 1589 01:14:08,880 --> 01:14:10,960 Speaker 1: told was a different story, which had to do with 1590 01:14:11,080 --> 01:14:13,160 Speaker 1: the fact that there was a second wave of people 1591 01:14:13,200 --> 01:14:16,120 Speaker 1: that had come in. Maybe there were organized criminal gangs 1592 01:14:16,160 --> 01:14:18,320 Speaker 1: maybe you know, but also it's like, this is a 1593 01:14:18,320 --> 01:14:21,600 Speaker 1: population that's lived in a prison camp and you know, 1594 01:14:21,600 --> 01:14:24,559 Speaker 1: and I think we have to. It's that doesn't justify 1595 01:14:24,640 --> 01:14:28,400 Speaker 1: anything you know that that you know is involves taking 1596 01:14:28,439 --> 01:14:30,120 Speaker 1: a multi month old baby. 1597 01:14:30,240 --> 01:14:31,360 Speaker 4: I think a mistake they made. 1598 01:14:31,400 --> 01:14:34,000 Speaker 3: I'm curious if any of this came up was so 1599 01:14:34,280 --> 01:14:36,599 Speaker 3: they they told you, and they've and they've said elsewhere 1600 01:14:36,600 --> 01:14:39,240 Speaker 3: that you know, in the days immediately after they said, 1601 01:14:39,520 --> 01:14:41,720 Speaker 3: we did not mean to take these many people. We 1602 01:14:41,760 --> 01:14:46,599 Speaker 3: will return all the civilian hossages in exchange for netya 1603 01:14:46,640 --> 01:14:49,360 Speaker 3: who committing not to do a ground invasion, bomb the 1604 01:14:49,360 --> 01:14:51,599 Speaker 3: hell out of us, like we'll have and then we'll 1605 01:14:51,640 --> 01:14:54,880 Speaker 3: have negotiations between the prisoners, the idea of soldiers that 1606 01:14:54,920 --> 01:14:58,040 Speaker 3: we have for our own prisoner exchange. 1607 01:14:59,400 --> 01:15:01,200 Speaker 4: Dan Yaho rejects that out of hand. 1608 01:15:01,640 --> 01:15:04,760 Speaker 3: I think at that point they should have just let 1609 01:15:04,800 --> 01:15:07,000 Speaker 3: all of the civilians. 1610 01:15:06,479 --> 01:15:10,000 Speaker 4: Go now they but there's thousands. I understand why they did. 1611 01:15:10,160 --> 01:15:13,439 Speaker 3: There's thousands of civilians held hostage by Israel. 1612 01:15:13,880 --> 01:15:16,360 Speaker 4: But at the same time that it's just the right 1613 01:15:16,400 --> 01:15:16,920 Speaker 4: thing to do. 1614 01:15:17,080 --> 01:15:19,680 Speaker 3: And if you're going to like try to claim the 1615 01:15:19,720 --> 01:15:23,479 Speaker 3: moral high ground, but also like I can. 1616 01:15:23,400 --> 01:15:27,439 Speaker 1: Sit there with you know, with officials from Hamas or 1617 01:15:27,479 --> 01:15:30,880 Speaker 1: Islamic Jihad, and ask them these questions. But if you 1618 01:15:30,960 --> 01:15:34,320 Speaker 1: then ask, if you ask an Israeli official or even 1619 01:15:34,320 --> 01:15:37,519 Speaker 1: an American politician defending israelis about the fact that there 1620 01:15:37,520 --> 01:15:42,160 Speaker 1: are ten thousand, for all practical verbs as political prisoners being. 1621 01:15:41,920 --> 01:15:44,200 Speaker 4: Held administrative detemption, including. 1622 01:15:43,960 --> 01:15:48,240 Speaker 1: Children, including journalists, including people that are being held for 1623 01:15:49,200 --> 01:15:52,240 Speaker 1: six month stretches that can be renewed indefinitely where they 1624 01:15:52,320 --> 01:15:55,599 Speaker 1: have no access to a lawyer or any other kind 1625 01:15:55,640 --> 01:15:59,720 Speaker 1: of visitors or communications, and that so many of them 1626 01:15:59,720 --> 01:16:03,040 Speaker 1: are you know that that is that's a non issue. 1627 01:16:03,080 --> 01:16:05,559 Speaker 1: Those are hostages too when you're taking especially I mean, 1628 01:16:05,640 --> 01:16:08,360 Speaker 1: look at the recent reporting on taking a five year old, 1629 01:16:08,479 --> 01:16:11,559 Speaker 1: seven year olds that they're taking and treating them as adults. 1630 01:16:11,600 --> 01:16:15,519 Speaker 1: It's the only country in that that proclaims itself a 1631 01:16:15,560 --> 01:16:19,559 Speaker 1: democracy that is putting children into military court systems. 1632 01:16:19,680 --> 01:16:22,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, people arms, And that's what drove that's what drove 1633 01:16:22,200 --> 01:16:26,120 Speaker 3: like this hostage crisis, this vicious cycle of the only 1634 01:16:26,160 --> 01:16:28,040 Speaker 3: way to get somebody out of administrative attention is that 1635 01:16:28,120 --> 01:16:30,400 Speaker 3: then kidnap somebody else in exchange them. 1636 01:16:30,240 --> 01:16:31,520 Speaker 6: Which is why the prisoner. 1637 01:16:31,200 --> 01:16:35,720 Speaker 1: Exchanged yeah, and it's you know this, this is such 1638 01:16:35,760 --> 01:16:37,720 Speaker 1: a minefield to walk in because it's been It's a 1639 01:16:37,760 --> 01:16:41,200 Speaker 1: manufactured minefield as part of our political culture. But I'm 1640 01:16:41,240 --> 01:16:43,840 Speaker 1: not afraid to say it. Palestinians have a right to 1641 01:16:43,960 --> 01:16:48,000 Speaker 1: defend themselves, including by taking up arms against a colonial 1642 01:16:48,040 --> 01:16:51,559 Speaker 1: apartheid regime. We can talk about individual war crimes, and 1643 01:16:51,600 --> 01:16:53,840 Speaker 1: we should talk about them, and there should be accountability 1644 01:16:53,880 --> 01:16:57,840 Speaker 1: for them, But the underlying narrative is that they had 1645 01:16:57,920 --> 01:17:01,439 Speaker 1: no right to do anything on October seventh, and I 1646 01:17:01,439 --> 01:17:04,800 Speaker 1: would say that that is inconsistent with international law. It 1647 01:17:04,880 --> 01:17:07,360 Speaker 1: totally rejects the fact that we have a seventy five 1648 01:17:07,439 --> 01:17:10,519 Speaker 1: year history that led up to the events of October seventh, 1649 01:17:10,520 --> 01:17:12,920 Speaker 1: and it erases as though the Palestinians are in a 1650 01:17:12,960 --> 01:17:16,320 Speaker 1: class of their own, their right as a people to 1651 01:17:16,720 --> 01:17:21,559 Speaker 1: rise up against what global law and institutions have clearly 1652 01:17:21,640 --> 01:17:24,760 Speaker 1: defined as an illegal occupation and an apartheid state. 1653 01:17:25,360 --> 01:17:28,400 Speaker 5: And that has to change. We cannot pretend that the 1654 01:17:28,400 --> 01:17:31,519 Speaker 5: Palestinians somehow have no right. They do have a right. 1655 01:17:32,439 --> 01:17:35,160 Speaker 1: You look at the stealing of Palestinian land right now, 1656 01:17:35,320 --> 01:17:39,559 Speaker 1: the expansion of the settlements, which is a US backed 1657 01:17:39,640 --> 01:17:43,120 Speaker 1: Israeli government policy to support this is you know, all 1658 01:17:43,120 --> 01:17:45,439 Speaker 1: the lip service from Harris and Biden on the issue 1659 01:17:45,439 --> 01:17:48,519 Speaker 1: of settlements is worth nothing if the policy just goes 1660 01:17:48,560 --> 01:17:53,439 Speaker 1: forward with no consequence. So the fact that you know, 1661 01:17:54,640 --> 01:17:58,200 Speaker 1: roughly eleven hundred people were killed on October seventh, thousands 1662 01:17:58,240 --> 01:18:02,120 Speaker 1: of other Israelis were We're wounded, that is a is 1663 01:18:02,320 --> 01:18:05,599 Speaker 1: very relevant. We should talk about that the people who died, 1664 01:18:05,640 --> 01:18:08,200 Speaker 1: that they deserve that have their stories told, and they 1665 01:18:08,240 --> 01:18:12,519 Speaker 1: deserve justice. But to pretend as though it existed in 1666 01:18:12,560 --> 01:18:16,800 Speaker 1: a vacuum, that history doesn't matter, that there doesn't have 1667 01:18:16,840 --> 01:18:18,920 Speaker 1: to be a discussion about what rights do the Palestinians have. 1668 01:18:19,520 --> 01:18:23,519 Speaker 1: I think this is an outrageously dishonest framing that we've 1669 01:18:23,600 --> 01:18:24,919 Speaker 1: tolerated for a year. 1670 01:18:25,000 --> 01:18:28,120 Speaker 2: Well so ultimately doesn't leave the Israeli people more safe 1671 01:18:28,160 --> 01:18:30,839 Speaker 2: either to ignore the larger history. 1672 01:18:31,280 --> 01:18:35,599 Speaker 4: Managing the conflict is what the strategy was called. 1673 01:18:36,000 --> 01:18:39,000 Speaker 3: And if you're quote unquote managing the conflict, you're accepting 1674 01:18:39,000 --> 01:18:40,719 Speaker 3: that there's going to be endless conflict. 1675 01:18:41,120 --> 01:18:43,320 Speaker 2: And let's maybe a good place to kind of wind 1676 01:18:43,360 --> 01:18:45,080 Speaker 2: down would be, Jeremy, if you could talk a little 1677 01:18:45,080 --> 01:18:47,320 Speaker 2: bit about now that drop site is up and is 1678 01:18:47,400 --> 01:18:52,280 Speaker 2: doing well. You have this amazing career going from Democracy 1679 01:18:52,320 --> 01:18:54,600 Speaker 2: Now to the Nation, to the Intercept and now to 1680 01:18:54,680 --> 01:18:56,280 Speaker 2: drop site. If you could talk maybe just a little 1681 01:18:56,280 --> 01:18:58,799 Speaker 2: bit about what you've learned in the last few months 1682 01:18:58,840 --> 01:19:02,200 Speaker 2: about media and the future of media potentially as somebody 1683 01:19:02,240 --> 01:19:04,479 Speaker 2: who's seen had a front row seat to so much 1684 01:19:04,479 --> 01:19:08,040 Speaker 2: of this evolution as technology evolved and the business evolved. 1685 01:19:08,439 --> 01:19:09,680 Speaker 6: What are some big lessons? 1686 01:19:10,360 --> 01:19:12,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean one of the things when we decide 1687 01:19:13,240 --> 01:19:15,320 Speaker 1: how we're going to do a story, or like if 1688 01:19:15,320 --> 01:19:18,240 Speaker 1: we're talking to you know, freelancers that we want to 1689 01:19:18,240 --> 01:19:20,600 Speaker 1: work with, or somebody on the ground somewhere. You know, 1690 01:19:20,640 --> 01:19:23,599 Speaker 1: we're we don't want to run like strictly op eds, 1691 01:19:23,880 --> 01:19:26,759 Speaker 1: you know, just telling people our hot take. That doesn't 1692 01:19:26,800 --> 01:19:29,439 Speaker 1: mean that there isn't going to be analysis or opinion 1693 01:19:29,640 --> 01:19:33,200 Speaker 1: in what we do, but we're trying to embrace a 1694 01:19:33,280 --> 01:19:37,120 Speaker 1: kind of hybrid approach. We want every article that we do, 1695 01:19:37,320 --> 01:19:40,200 Speaker 1: we want there to be information or a perspective in 1696 01:19:40,240 --> 01:19:43,559 Speaker 1: it that people wouldn't get but for that reading that article. 1697 01:19:43,720 --> 01:19:45,680 Speaker 1: And I don't just mean like an interesting take. I 1698 01:19:45,720 --> 01:19:47,839 Speaker 1: mean that we've talked to people on the ground somewhere, 1699 01:19:48,600 --> 01:19:52,479 Speaker 1: or that we're presenting information or facts that they wouldn't 1700 01:19:52,520 --> 01:19:55,799 Speaker 1: get elsewhere. An example of that is, you know, Yaniv Kogan, 1701 01:19:55,840 --> 01:19:59,120 Speaker 1: who's one of our contributors. You guys talked about his 1702 01:19:59,120 --> 01:20:02,760 Speaker 1: his reporting, you know, recently has is a phenomenal researcher 1703 01:20:02,800 --> 01:20:04,439 Speaker 1: and is and is in the kind of spirit of 1704 01:20:04,479 --> 01:20:07,560 Speaker 1: if Stone, you know, tries to dig up what is 1705 01:20:07,600 --> 01:20:10,599 Speaker 1: hidden in plain sight in Israel right now. And he's 1706 01:20:10,640 --> 01:20:13,720 Speaker 1: based in Tel Aviv, and you know, and he did 1707 01:20:13,720 --> 01:20:18,240 Speaker 1: this story about the Israeli cabinet officials saying that they're 1708 01:20:18,400 --> 01:20:21,080 Speaker 1: they were under the clear understanding that Anthony Blincoln had 1709 01:20:21,080 --> 01:20:23,080 Speaker 1: signed off on you know, bombing AID trucks if they 1710 01:20:23,080 --> 01:20:26,240 Speaker 1: had been believed to be hijacked by by Hamas. So 1711 01:20:27,080 --> 01:20:28,760 Speaker 1: you know, one thing that I've learned is that, uh, 1712 01:20:29,000 --> 01:20:31,160 Speaker 1: you know, opinions are are very very cheap, and that 1713 01:20:31,240 --> 01:20:33,960 Speaker 1: if you if you take the time to do old 1714 01:20:34,000 --> 01:20:37,479 Speaker 1: school raking of the muck and you work the phones 1715 01:20:37,600 --> 01:20:40,000 Speaker 1: or you go out into the field to do reporting, 1716 01:20:41,080 --> 01:20:42,600 Speaker 1: that people actually do appreciate that. 1717 01:20:43,720 --> 01:20:45,200 Speaker 5: I think social media is incredible. 1718 01:20:45,320 --> 01:20:47,599 Speaker 1: I you know, I'm I'm trying to figure out TikTok, 1719 01:20:48,960 --> 01:20:51,400 Speaker 1: you know, but I you know, I'm obviously, I've I've 1720 01:20:51,840 --> 01:20:53,360 Speaker 1: rekindled my addiction to Twitter. 1721 01:20:53,439 --> 01:20:54,519 Speaker 5: I'm back. I'm back on it. 1722 01:20:54,560 --> 01:20:56,320 Speaker 1: I've been you know, I called used to call myself 1723 01:20:56,320 --> 01:20:59,880 Speaker 1: a recovering Twitter combatant, but you relapsed. 1724 01:21:00,080 --> 01:21:01,760 Speaker 5: I mean I post things on like blue Sky and 1725 01:21:01,800 --> 01:21:05,840 Speaker 5: other things. But you know, I have to say, like I. 1726 01:21:04,600 --> 01:21:06,479 Speaker 1: What I what I think was great about the old 1727 01:21:06,760 --> 01:21:08,600 Speaker 1: Twitter too, is that you could mix it up with 1728 01:21:08,600 --> 01:21:10,760 Speaker 1: people that you disagreed with, and there was a it 1729 01:21:10,800 --> 01:21:13,000 Speaker 1: was much more of a global forum. I'm deeply concerned 1730 01:21:13,000 --> 01:21:16,599 Speaker 1: about what Leon has done with you know, Elon or whatever. 1731 01:21:17,080 --> 01:21:19,240 Speaker 5: What he's doing, I think people do. 1732 01:21:19,280 --> 01:21:20,599 Speaker 1: I think I call it that because I think that's 1733 01:21:20,640 --> 01:21:22,559 Speaker 1: one of the sub things that people call him Leon 1734 01:21:22,640 --> 01:21:24,640 Speaker 1: is a way to like not be tracked by him 1735 01:21:24,720 --> 01:21:26,600 Speaker 1: or something. But I think it's kind of you know, 1736 01:21:26,720 --> 01:21:29,680 Speaker 1: like the what I think what I've learned too is 1737 01:21:29,680 --> 01:21:33,720 Speaker 1: that you know, there's a lot of chatter, but if 1738 01:21:33,760 --> 01:21:37,120 Speaker 1: you if you're presenting facts, enough of the public is 1739 01:21:37,120 --> 01:21:40,080 Speaker 1: intellectually honest and actually is concerned with it. I think 1740 01:21:40,080 --> 01:21:43,479 Speaker 1: that's a narrative that that has been kicked aside in 1741 01:21:43,520 --> 01:21:46,320 Speaker 1: the current political culture. I think a lot of people 1742 01:21:46,320 --> 01:21:49,000 Speaker 1: look my family, working class people I have cousins and 1743 01:21:49,040 --> 01:21:52,000 Speaker 1: others they support Trump. I don't look at them and say, 1744 01:21:52,040 --> 01:21:54,960 Speaker 1: you know, you're bad people. You listen to you listen 1745 01:21:55,000 --> 01:21:57,599 Speaker 1: to the why of it, and it's you know, and 1746 01:21:57,600 --> 01:22:01,280 Speaker 1: and if you're humble enough to actually listen, there's an 1747 01:22:01,280 --> 01:22:04,599 Speaker 1: interesting story about people feeling talked down to, you know, 1748 01:22:04,720 --> 01:22:08,360 Speaker 1: about people struggling about And I think that the Democratic 1749 01:22:08,439 --> 01:22:13,680 Speaker 1: Party has has engaged in really poor messaging, you know, 1750 01:22:13,720 --> 01:22:17,080 Speaker 1: toward people that would be inclined to support them. And 1751 01:22:17,240 --> 01:22:20,160 Speaker 1: then when the actions then show that you don't have much, 1752 01:22:20,640 --> 01:22:23,320 Speaker 1: you know, regard for human life in the case of 1753 01:22:23,360 --> 01:22:26,040 Speaker 1: this war, you know, then then you want to say, oh, 1754 01:22:26,040 --> 01:22:29,120 Speaker 1: you're supposed to vote for US at election time, Well, 1755 01:22:29,160 --> 01:22:32,160 Speaker 1: they might find out, you know, like they they aft 1756 01:22:32,200 --> 01:22:34,880 Speaker 1: around and they might find out with continuing this genocidal war, 1757 01:22:35,080 --> 01:22:37,639 Speaker 1: and you know, they could hand Trump the White House. 1758 01:22:37,840 --> 01:22:39,920 Speaker 1: They want to blame Jill Stein, you know, they want 1759 01:22:39,920 --> 01:22:42,519 Speaker 1: to blame the uncommitted people. They want to blame you know, 1760 01:22:42,600 --> 01:22:45,400 Speaker 1: Muslims or Palestinians in this country, or other people who 1761 01:22:45,439 --> 01:22:47,960 Speaker 1: are opposed to to genocide. When are they When is 1762 01:22:48,000 --> 01:22:50,400 Speaker 1: it ever time for the Democrats to take responsibility This 1763 01:22:50,560 --> 01:22:53,600 Speaker 1: tired old narrab oh Ralph Nader was responsible for for 1764 01:22:53,680 --> 01:22:56,519 Speaker 1: George Bush winning the White House. It's empirically and literally 1765 01:22:56,560 --> 01:22:59,479 Speaker 1: just false. Who was responsible for George Bush winning was 1766 01:22:59,520 --> 01:23:02,360 Speaker 1: a combination of a bad campaign run by the Democrats 1767 01:23:02,400 --> 01:23:05,680 Speaker 1: and chickannery and thievery that went on, and then the 1768 01:23:05,680 --> 01:23:10,840 Speaker 1: Supreme Court. But it's like this narrative that somehow your 1769 01:23:10,880 --> 01:23:13,240 Speaker 1: respect if you don't vote for a party that has 1770 01:23:13,280 --> 01:23:17,120 Speaker 1: not listened to you at all, that continues to facilitate 1771 01:23:17,120 --> 01:23:19,439 Speaker 1: a genocidal war, and that you're somehow it's going to 1772 01:23:19,439 --> 01:23:22,240 Speaker 1: be your fault if they lose. This is the constant 1773 01:23:22,240 --> 01:23:25,280 Speaker 1: cry baby game of the Democrats through all their electoral losses. 1774 01:23:25,280 --> 01:23:27,639 Speaker 1: It's always the fault of someone else except themselves. 1775 01:23:28,720 --> 01:23:31,160 Speaker 6: I could do this all day, all day. 1776 01:23:31,240 --> 01:23:33,600 Speaker 1: I can also talk about Donald Trump and his Charlatanism 1777 01:23:33,600 --> 01:23:36,400 Speaker 1: and the dangers of his administration, but actually, I think 1778 01:23:36,439 --> 01:23:39,280 Speaker 1: people like us I don't want Donald Trump to be 1779 01:23:39,360 --> 01:23:41,880 Speaker 1: in power, but I can't in good faith stand here 1780 01:23:41,880 --> 01:23:44,439 Speaker 1: and say, oh, you have to vote blue no matter who. 1781 01:23:44,520 --> 01:23:47,280 Speaker 1: I think people have a right to make decisions based 1782 01:23:47,320 --> 01:23:49,400 Speaker 1: on their own principles and their own morals, and I 1783 01:23:49,400 --> 01:23:51,840 Speaker 1: think people from the left need to be willing to 1784 01:23:51,880 --> 01:23:54,920 Speaker 1: stand up and be honest about politicians that claim to 1785 01:23:54,920 --> 01:23:55,360 Speaker 1: speak for. 1786 01:23:55,320 --> 01:23:56,120 Speaker 5: All of them. 1787 01:23:56,200 --> 01:23:57,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, and their experiences too. I mean I was in 1788 01:23:57,960 --> 01:24:00,439 Speaker 2: Butler this last weekend covering the Trump real for that. 1789 01:24:00,600 --> 01:24:02,400 Speaker 2: It's amazing how many people you talked to. I mean, 1790 01:24:02,479 --> 01:24:04,880 Speaker 2: it's Taylor as old as twenty sixteen, the same thing 1791 01:24:04,920 --> 01:24:07,519 Speaker 2: over and over again. They feel ignored, they're struggling, and 1792 01:24:07,640 --> 01:24:10,920 Speaker 2: he feels like hope to them. And journalists may lack 1793 01:24:10,960 --> 01:24:13,240 Speaker 2: the humility to see why that makes sense to people, but. 1794 01:24:13,520 --> 01:24:15,200 Speaker 6: It does a lot of people see that. 1795 01:24:16,920 --> 01:24:17,280 Speaker 4: There we go. 1796 01:24:17,400 --> 01:24:19,800 Speaker 2: What a beautiful note to end on Donald Trump, hope 1797 01:24:19,800 --> 01:24:21,800 Speaker 2: and change. Ryan Grimm said it. 1798 01:24:22,080 --> 01:24:24,679 Speaker 4: There you go. Well, Jeremy, thanks so much for joining 1799 01:24:24,760 --> 01:24:25,120 Speaker 4: us here. 1800 01:24:25,200 --> 01:24:28,080 Speaker 3: Welcome to the DC. I hope you enjoy your time here. 1801 01:24:28,320 --> 01:24:30,040 Speaker 3: I doubt you will, but. 1802 01:24:30,000 --> 01:24:32,240 Speaker 5: I like the Imperial bubble. Oh, I appreciate it. Thank 1803 01:24:32,280 --> 01:24:34,080 Speaker 5: you guys for all the work you do. Oh my gosh, 1804 01:24:34,160 --> 01:24:34,880 Speaker 5: go Wisconsin. 1805 01:24:35,120 --> 01:24:37,559 Speaker 2: Yes, that's right, we didn't even We could have debated 1806 01:24:37,640 --> 01:24:41,040 Speaker 2: so much more bitterly next time. Yeah, are you a 1807 01:24:41,080 --> 01:24:42,559 Speaker 2: marquette or a Badger's fan? 1808 01:24:42,640 --> 01:24:43,160 Speaker 6: You're Badgers? 1809 01:24:43,760 --> 01:24:44,800 Speaker 5: I have to be Yeah, I have to be. 1810 01:24:45,400 --> 01:24:47,360 Speaker 1: I would say I was enrolled at UW, I wouldn't 1811 01:24:47,360 --> 01:24:50,559 Speaker 1: say I attended. That's a good way of Yeah, Badger's 1812 01:24:50,560 --> 01:24:51,240 Speaker 1: always in my heart. 1813 01:24:51,439 --> 01:24:53,840 Speaker 6: There we go, all right, well, drop site news. It 1814 01:24:53,960 --> 01:24:54,639 Speaker 6: is wonderful. 1815 01:24:54,720 --> 01:24:56,960 Speaker 2: Subscribe if you haven't already, and we will be back here. 1816 01:24:57,000 --> 01:24:59,760 Speaker 2: Brian will be here with Tagger. I'll be on a 1817 01:24:59,800 --> 01:25:01,560 Speaker 2: work trip, but Ryan will be here with soccer for 1818 01:25:01,640 --> 01:25:03,760 Speaker 2: Bro Show on Wednesday, and we'll see you. 1819 01:25:03,720 --> 01:25:04,720 Speaker 4: Then later 1820 01:25:12,439 --> 01:25:12,479 Speaker 3: H