WEBVTT - What’s Next in Golf Course Architecture? 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.480 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. 0:00:02.640 --> 0:00:04.920 When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:06.320 And when I find my ball. 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:09.319 In a bride Egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg Friday, 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:12.040 Frida Egg, Brian Egg, Frida Egg, Bride Egg Lie. 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:14.080 I'm about ready to run off of the hump course. 0:00:35.360 --> 0:00:38.159 Welcome to the Frida Egg Podcast. My name is Garrett Morrison, 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:42.680 and today we're talking about what's next in golf course architecture. 0:00:43.280 --> 0:00:46.040 We came up with a few things each that we 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:48.960 hope or expect to see out of golf architecture in 0:00:49.000 --> 0:00:52.200 the next I don't know, call it ten or twenty years, 0:00:52.600 --> 0:00:55.800 maybe even longer term if we really want to engage 0:00:55.800 --> 0:00:58.440 in some science fiction here. But basically we're just trying 0:00:58.480 --> 0:00:59.040 to read the tea. 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:01.520 We're burning this topic. 0:01:01.840 --> 0:01:04.280 You know, if you're saying ten to twenty years, we 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:08.800 can't days for ten to twenty years, so we gotta 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:10.720 be careful, so to ye. 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:13.600 But I like the time. The time frames for golf 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:16.360 architecture are pretty long, like this stuff. It's not like 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:18.560 you know, making an album. And by the way, that 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:21.600 voice you heard is Andy Johnson. I'm Garrett Morrison. I 0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:24.760 don't think I introduced myself. I'm just all discombobulated here. 0:01:25.120 --> 0:01:26.160 Andy Johnson, how you. 0:01:26.080 --> 0:01:28.920 Doing, I'm doing great, doing great. I'm excited to talk 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:33.160 about golf architecture and Trent. I think that this is 0:01:34.480 --> 0:01:37.119 we're at this spot right now where there's never been 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:40.959 more work going on since pre economic collapse in the 0:01:41.000 --> 0:01:45.600 mid two thousands or late two thousands. So at this 0:01:45.800 --> 0:01:49.160 point we're at the stage of golf architecture where there's 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:51.640 a lot happening. There's a lot of courses being planned, 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:54.080 there's a lot of development, there's a lot of work 0:01:54.120 --> 0:01:57.279 that are being that's being done at existing courses because 0:01:57.560 --> 0:02:01.680 clubs are full and flushed with cash. Obviously, with what's 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:06.080 going on in the Karri It'll be interesting to see. 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:07.080 How long this lasts. 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:10.840 But for the time being, there is a lot of 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:13.880 work and a lot of enthusiasm for new work in 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:16.120 golf and new development in golf. So I think this 0:02:16.200 --> 0:02:20.160 is a timely time to have this conversation. 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:23.840 There are a lot more new course projects going on 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:26.920 right now in North America than there have been for 0:02:26.960 --> 0:02:30.480 a long time. Now, we're nowhere near the heights of 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:35.560 like the nineties or the sixties. Obviously, I don't think 0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:38.400 we're ever going to see something like that again unless 0:02:38.600 --> 0:02:42.840 something huge changes in the world. But we are seeing 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:46.000 a major uptech in new development, and of course the 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:49.360 restoration and renovation market is pretty active as well. But 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:52.000 there's also some uncertainty when it comes to the economy, 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:54.680 so we'll see what happens with that. Now. Another factor 0:02:54.720 --> 0:02:58.160 that I think makes this sort of a hinge moment 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:03.040 in golf course architecture is a lot of the highest 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:08.320 profile golf architects are getting on in years, right. Bill 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:10.840 Corr and Ben Crenshaw are both in their seventies now. 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:15.640 They're both really you know, they're going hard still, Like 0:03:16.360 --> 0:03:18.440 if you see Bill Corr, it's not like he's slowing 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:21.200 down when he's walking around courses, but just you know, 0:03:21.280 --> 0:03:24.280 facts are facts. They're in their seventies. Tom Doak is 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:27.959 sixty one, Gil Hans is fifty nine. David McLay kidd 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:30.680 is in his early fifties. These are not old guys, 0:03:31.040 --> 0:03:34.640 but they're also not super young guys anymore. Now. You 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:37.920 also think of Jack Nicholas, you think of Tom Fazio. 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:41.360 I think we're at a moment when the architects who 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:46.040 have really been the leading figures for the past even 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:49.680 forty years are now starting to get to the tail 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:52.760 end of their careers. And one thing that I'm looking 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:57.480 for is who's going to emerge as the next big architects. 0:03:57.520 --> 0:04:00.000 I think that's a question on a lot of people's minds. 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:01.960 That's not one of my things, by the way, that 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:04.880 I'm hoping or expecting. I think that's just something that 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:07.119 makes this moment interesting. 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:08.720 Yeah, I agree. 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:13.600 I think like besides just age, I think the influx 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:18.880 of work has booked these architects out also, so you 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:22.080 know the capacity issue. You know, Bill, Bill Core and 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:25.760 Ben Crenshaw aren't going to do you know, ten courses 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:29.039 in a year. That's just not how they operate, right, 0:04:29.440 --> 0:04:32.560 So you know they have they have they are booked 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:34.839 out and they can't. You know, there's only so much 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:37.719 work they can accept. Same with Tom Doak, same with 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:41.720 Gil Hands and uh, these these people, these. 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:43.680 Architects are busier than they've ever been. 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:47.080 With that that means that there's more overflow and that 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:51.320 is where young people, younger architects are going to get 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:55.440 their chances. And that's what is very exciting about the 0:04:55.480 --> 0:05:00.839 next five, six, seven years, Like you said, the one 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:03.560 of the things with architecture, and I think this is, 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:07.120 you know, it's an important lesson, and I think this 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:09.880 is not meant as a shot at David Kidd's career, 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:12.479 but if you look at you know, the way a 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:17.520 golf architects legacy like career works. David McClay Kidd built 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:22.680 Banded Dunes and it was obviously deservingly so celebrated. It 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:27.080 was a tremendous golf course, a huge golf course, and 0:05:27.120 --> 0:05:30.760 as David Kidd said, he lost his way. Then after that, 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:33.000 for a little while he built some courses that he 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:36.599 himself would say are not great golf courses, are not 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:40.200 fun golf courses to play. Now, the thing about that 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:42.960 is he was riding the high of abandoned dudes, got 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:47.000 hired for many, many jobs and built some mediocre golf 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:50.600 courses and by the time people realize this, he has 0:05:50.640 --> 0:05:54.360 been hired for numerous jobs. Like because of the time 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:58.480 span of a golf course being built, right, it takes 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:01.599 really end to end. You're talking about on the very 0:06:01.640 --> 0:06:05.240 fast end, maybe two years, on the slower end, three 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:08.280 to five years, and these developments take a lot of time, 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:10.839 so you could get hired for a lot of jobs 0:06:10.880 --> 0:06:14.599 in that interm mediary area where we haven't even seen 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:17.840 somebody's second work or first work. So it's going to 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:21.039 be I mean, that's what's so compelling to me about 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:24.000 it is that we're going to see architects who who 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:27.200 might build one great golf course, get an influx of 0:06:27.240 --> 0:06:30.200 work and then you know, how do they follow that up. 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:32.640 It's just like a band, how you know, the iconic 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:36.719 bands come up with albums flashing, the pan bands come 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:40.719 up with an album and in building that that legacy 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:43.279 that you know we talk of Bill Korer, Ben Crunch 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:47.040 or Tom Doak, like where you have a effective roster 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:51.120 of great golf courses is so difficult to do, and 0:06:51.279 --> 0:06:54.240 that it's not about the one course, it's about the 0:06:54.240 --> 0:06:57.960 collection of courses. Because you know, what I think is 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:00.640 amazing is how some of these archet and I think 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:04.719 Tom Doak is probably at the forefront of this, continues 0:07:04.760 --> 0:07:10.080 to push new ideas right like he seems almost restless 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:14.040 with building a course that's anything like another golf course. 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:17.520 And some might quibble with, hey, this golf course isn't 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:20.120 my cup of tea, but it's always different. And I 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:24.000 think that's the thing, is that building lots of great 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:28.000 courses is way way more difficult than building one course. 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:30.800 And we're just hoping to see some of these young 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:33.360 guys get a chance to build one great golf course. 0:07:33.400 --> 0:07:34.760 But then it's building off that. 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:37.880 Yeah, And as you say, it takes a while right 0:07:38.040 --> 0:07:41.760 for the shape of an architect's career to become clear. 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:45.840 You really only see it in retrospect, and by that 0:07:46.000 --> 0:07:49.440 point the architect is already pretty deep into his or 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:53.920 her career. So you know, think about how Corn Crenshaw emerged. Essentially, 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:57.600 Bill Korrer had been working in the golf architecture industry 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:02.040 since the seventies, right the late seventies, at least with. 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:06.080 With Pete Dye Dolphins era, was there you go to 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:07.240 start with Pete's good. 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:08.520 That's a good reference point. 0:08:08.680 --> 0:08:12.000 Yeah, because he that's how he met Pete Die. You know, 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:15.280 Pete Die came into his hotel room to watch the dolphin. 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:17.120 To just watch the dolphins. Wait, was that a Tom 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:18.880 Doak story or is that a Bill Cory story, a 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:23.000 Bill co story? Okay, that's yeah, that's that's a really 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:23.360 good one. 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:24.160 I love that. 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:28.000 The pee Die was like mainly interested in saying the 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:30.920 Dolphins game, you know. That's that's the main thing that 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:33.239 he was doing there. He's like getting away from somewhere 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:35.320 so that he could go like just sit and watch 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:39.080 the Dolphins game for a while. That's that's hilarious. So yeah, 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:43.319 So Corr was grinding away for years and then finally 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:47.680 broke out with Kapalua Sand Hills and other projects in 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:50.920 the mid to late nineties. Tom Doak, I think you 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:54.200 see much the same trajectory. And so these architects who 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:56.760 have just sort of come on our radar within the 0:08:56.800 --> 0:09:00.400 past ten years, it might take a little while longer 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:04.200 for us to understand who they are and what they're 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:07.319 going to contribute to the discipline, to the art form. 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:10.720 And so I'm really looking forward to seeing some some 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:14.160 course openings within the next few years by architects who 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:17.040 haven't gotten big new build jobs before. That's going to 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:20.960 be exciting to me to see what what new is 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:23.520 going to be contributed. But that said, we're trying to 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:27.000 read the tea leaves a bit here, spot some trends 0:09:27.160 --> 0:09:29.440 and talk about some things that we hope or expect 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:32.840 to see in the near future. So what's the first 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:34.920 thing that you came up with. Why don't we start there? 0:09:35.720 --> 0:09:38.280 Yeah, So, I think one of the things that I'm 0:09:38.360 --> 0:09:45.880 craving is developers and developments that might inhabit less spectacular sites. 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:49.520 I think the dominant trend in golf architecture has been 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:53.559 these far away lands of swaths of sand and and 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:56.720 this is great. I'm not saying I'm not advocating for 0:09:56.880 --> 0:10:00.720 less of these. What I'm advocating for is more balance 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:04.440 where we do have some less spectacular sites. Not every 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:07.640 site has to be crazy in order for you to 0:10:07.679 --> 0:10:09.920 have a really good golf course. And one of the 0:10:09.920 --> 0:10:13.840 things with that is that less spectacular sites are usually 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:18.800 closer to large centers of population. So you know, to me, 0:10:19.280 --> 0:10:21.600 one of the things that I got thinking about a 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:25.200 lot at Frisco at PGA Frisco was how nice it 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:29.400 was that a development was actually like near a city. 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:33.200 And obviously that was a unique case, and there are 0:10:33.200 --> 0:10:36.000 going to be lots of unique cases. But the idea 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:38.600 that the golf course can only be built on sand 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:42.559 and in a spectacular place it has to be this remote, 0:10:42.720 --> 0:10:46.120 far off destination golf course is a bit silly to 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:49.360 me because if you go through the you know, the 0:10:49.360 --> 0:10:52.640 best course in the world, A lot of the best architecture, 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:54.680 a lot of the architecture that you really want to 0:10:54.679 --> 0:10:58.520 talk about, you know, is on less spectacular sites. It 0:10:58.600 --> 0:11:01.760 allows architects to do a little bit more with their 0:11:01.840 --> 0:11:05.760 greens and create a little bit more big features and such. 0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:09.520 So I would love to start to see, you know, 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:11.840 a trend of like not everything has to be built 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:17.080 on huge, massive piece of swaths of sand. Like we 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:19.400 can build a golf course and it can be a 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:23.920 very very good golf course on a less interesting piece 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:27.400 of land because we have you know, I believe that 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:31.839 this era architects could build more interesting stuff, the most 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:35.080 interesting stuff ever. You know, it seems like they have 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:38.480 the education levels. What it requires. One of the things 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:41.160 that would require is developers to allow them to do that. 0:11:41.480 --> 0:11:46.160 And I think actually to push architecture more forward. Less 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:49.640 interesting land could do it because we get funkier architecture. 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:52.600 Yeah. No, I was just gonna ask, what kind of 0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:56.199 architecture do you think we would see on poor sites? 0:11:56.240 --> 0:11:59.880 Would there be a move toward something different than what 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:03.720 we have seen on ideally suited sites for the past 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:06.280 twenty years or so those have been the highest profile courses, 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:10.400 courses that are subtly created on great sites for golf. 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:13.280 What do you think architects need to change about the 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:15.880 way they think about how they do their work if 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:19.160 they're building on sites that are not well suited to golf. 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:22.040 I think one thing we've talked about on this podcast 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:25.480 is like above ground features ramping, like where you have 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:28.920 like just quirky stuff, you know, you can get a 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:32.240 little bit more aggressive with greens. I think, like you know, 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:35.800 and I think there's some pushback with greens and people, oh, 0:12:35.920 --> 0:12:38.160 it's not fair, like if they hit a green and 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:41.720 it's really hard to put that's not fair. But really, 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:45.479 I think like from a day to day playability standpoint, 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:49.080 you want greens that have a lot of different spot 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:54.800 different pockets, and that drive strategy back When it's just 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:59.000 a simple flat tilting green, you know, it kind of 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:01.679 plays the same every day and you have to be 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:05.560 precise in everything, but you know, the more dependent you 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:10.080 are on natural features such as topography and things to 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:13.000 take over. I think the other thing about it is 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:16.320 everybody is like obsessed with these big dramatic sites, right, 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:20.680 more subtle sites lend itself to being more walkable, more 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:24.040 easier to get around, like just they don't sap as 0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:25.400 much energy from you. 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:28.840 You can play quicker, you can play more golf potentially. 0:13:29.360 --> 0:13:32.800 And the one of the big things I noticed is 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:36.640 a lot of the greatest courses in the world really 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:41.880 are centered around like one or two key geographic features. 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:46.199 And almost every plot of land has those types of features, right, 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:49.679 Like Chicago golf is a good piece of land, is 0:13:49.720 --> 0:13:53.120 not a sublime piece of land, but it really just 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:55.839 you know, if you drive around that area, you see 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:58.560 that type of land in prairies all over the place, 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:02.920 and it's like there's a central knoll that a lot 0:14:02.920 --> 0:14:06.080 of the holes play through, there's another ridge that you 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:09.000 play off of, and that's really it. And then it 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:12.720 leans more on golf architecture, and I think there's a 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:16.040 huge talent in routing a golf course on a dramatic, 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:19.920 spectacular site and getting the most out of spectacular site. 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:23.800 That's one facet of architecture. There's another facet and skill 0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:26.920 of architecture to be able to, you know, ring out 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:31.960 every ounce of interesting architecture from a less spectacular site. 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:35.720 And like these sites are usually a little bit more 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:40.240 available closer to population centers, which I that's my big 0:14:40.280 --> 0:14:43.440 thing that I would like to see. Destination golf's great, 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:46.520 but can we get stuff that's like within an hour 0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:47.560 of places? 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:50.280 So this is something that you hope to see but 0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:54.960 maybe don't necessarily expect. Yeah, because I'm not sure I 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:58.520 see that trend emerging right now. I would love for 0:14:58.600 --> 0:15:02.240 that to happen. My concern is that a lot of 0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:06.480 golf development right now is targeted at the very high 0:15:06.600 --> 0:15:09.760 end of the market. We have these small clubs and 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:13.320 these premium resorts. That's where a lot of action is 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:17.160 happening right now. To my mind, I'm not seeing enough 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:22.680 activity at the local level city courses, you know, even 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:26.360 middle class kind of public courses. I would love to 0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:31.920 see more being done in those areas, but that portion 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:34.760 of the market right now seems to be a little 0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:36.840 bit quiet. Would you agree with that or do I 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:37.720 have the wrong impression? 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:38.040 No? 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:38.640 I think so. 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:41.720 I think there's there's stuff that could be coming that 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:44.800 might be a little bit closer, but almost everything's always 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:47.560 driven around private model unfortunately. 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:50.120 Yeah, and that's I mean, this is the world we 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:55.040 live in where you know, income inequality is ramping up 0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:58.360 right that money is being more and more concentrated in 0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:00.800 the hands of a few people. And so I don't 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:02.560 want to be labor that point because it's not that 0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:04.760 kind of podcast. But I think what we're seeing in 0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:09.160 golf is reflective of what's happening more broadly in the world. Now. 0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:13.280 This sort of my first thing. This is both something 0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:15.840 that I hope for and something that I sort of 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:20.240 expect to see happen within, you know, in this next 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:22.880 wave of golf architecture, and it kind of aligns with 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:27.280 what you're talking about building courses on more subtle sites. 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:31.160 What I'd like to see is more experimentation with what 0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:35.200 I've heard you call in the past Golden Age maximalism. 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:39.280 And what you mean by Golden Age maximalism is basically 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:44.640 a lot of aggressive shaping around certain features on the course, 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:48.360 mostly the greens, but also you know, some bunkers in 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:51.320 the fairways here and there, where the architects really go 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:54.440 to work and build something bold, build something that is 0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:58.840 sculpted and that doesn't necessarily blend into the natural environment. 0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:03.560 But then the move elsewhere is to keep things natural right, 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:09.080 to maintain the natural terrain aside from those concentrated spots 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:12.680 where you do a lot of artistic work. I would 0:17:12.720 --> 0:17:15.199 like to see more of that, because I think that 0:17:15.280 --> 0:17:20.040 the trend recently has been toward making everything blend, making 0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:23.120 the greens blend, making the bunkers blend, making it all 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:26.000 seem like it belongs. Now, some architects are better at 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:28.680 that than others. Core and Crenshaw are the gold standard. 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:31.760 Not all architects are as good as they are at 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:35.320 making everything look like it belongs. But I would like 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:38.160 to see more architects, and I expect to see more 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:43.480 architects start to do some more aggressive shaping around greens 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:46.360 and un bunkers. Build these vertical features that you were 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:49.600 talking about, you know, whether they're little kind of berms 0:17:49.720 --> 0:17:52.800 or you know, edges to the bunkers or built up 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:56.600 edges of the greens like we see it Walter Travis courses. 0:17:57.320 --> 0:17:59.760 That kind of stuff is really cool. But I think 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:02.480 that the way to make it really work, and to 0:18:02.560 --> 0:18:06.000 make it different from the overshaped stuff that we saw 0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:08.880 come out of big firms in the eighties and nineties 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:13.800 is to leave the rest of the landscape undisturbed. Okay, 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:16.160 and this is what you know, you've called this golden 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:19.439 age maximalism before. This is essentially what Langford and Moreau 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:21.560 did it a lot of their courses, right, the fair 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:25.800 ways were often very natural, sat naturally on the land, 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:29.560 but the greens and bunkers were super boldly shaped. This 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:32.400 is what Seth Rayner did it a lot of his courses. 0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:34.959 This is what Walter Travis did at the courses that 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:38.240 we saw on the East Coast when we were last there. 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:41.880 I would like to see more, you know, work inspired 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:45.119 by that, and I see some architects moving in that direction. 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:45.880 Yeah. 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:49.280 I think that this is kind of a best of 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:53.040 both world situation in a way. I think I love 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:57.080 natural golf design where it's really you know, everything ties in. 0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:01.399 I'm not saying, but different forms of the art of 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:05.240 golf architecture are essential for things to push forward. And 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:11.040 I think why this works so well is because when 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:15.080 you're being very natural with the land, that's going to 0:19:15.240 --> 0:19:18.679 require and I think where a lot of maximalist projects 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:22.480 fall short is the routings end up being very clunky. 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:23.800 They don't work with. 0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:26.960 The land right, and they're they're moving earth to fix 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:30.919 problems rather than solving the problems with the routing. 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:34.360 And they grade too much. They flatten too much out 0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:37.600 in the fair ways. Everything is shaped. I'm talking about 0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:40.199 just shaping in particular places and leaving a lot of 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:42.919 stuff alone. My problem with the course is that the 0:19:42.960 --> 0:19:46.320 maximus truly maximalst courses you're talking about, is that once 0:19:46.359 --> 0:19:49.680 you're in a completely created environment, then you really start 0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:51.240 to feel alienated from the land. 0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:51.840 Well. 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:55.000 I think the other thing is that the routing. There's 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:58.800 no routing exercise because you can build whatever you want 0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:02.919 and the idea of finding the best golf holes doesn't 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:06.159 exist because it's we can go create the best golf holes. 0:20:06.520 --> 0:20:10.520 And what happens is that that disrupts the way that 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:13.199 you go on, Like I think the walk and the 0:20:13.280 --> 0:20:16.280 journey of a golf course is the most important part 0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:18.639 of it. And when you're not even concerned with that, 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:21.879 because you can just bulldoze your way too a routing 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:26.520 that you like, rather than hey, you know, I'd like 0:20:26.600 --> 0:20:28.720 to go over here, but it's kind of like I 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:30.480 don't know how we're going to get out of there. 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:35.439 And it's that work and that effort that goes into 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:38.320 figuring out how to get in and out of places. 0:20:38.840 --> 0:20:42.280 I think that truly makes you know the great courses 0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:43.720 greater than you know it. 0:20:44.359 --> 0:20:47.600 There are little corners. 0:20:47.119 --> 0:20:49.120 That they get into, a nook that they get into, 0:20:49.160 --> 0:20:50.680 and you wonder, how am I going to get out 0:20:50.680 --> 0:20:50.920 of there? 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:51.560 And it's the. 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:55.600 Creativity and ingenuity to get out of there. When you 0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:58.760 just bulldoze your way around there, you lose that journey 0:20:58.800 --> 0:21:01.560 a little bit because every thing, as you said, is 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:05.680 kind of a made believe environment. And I think that 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:10.159 is a that's a essential thing. That's why I like 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:15.720 about it is go crazy everywhere else, but build the 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:18.560 golf course. Let the land be the land, because that's 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:20.320 what makes the place special. 0:21:21.000 --> 0:21:24.760 Yeah, And I think that architects can free themselves from 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:28.280 the notion that they have to tie everything in. Right, 0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:30.720 Do you have to tie every green in or tie 0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:33.480 every bunker in make it look like it flows into 0:21:33.520 --> 0:21:36.720 the natural landscape. No, I don't think so. Like I 0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:39.919 think that sometimes you can do something that is really 0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:45.040 audacious and sculptural with a golf course design, but there 0:21:45.080 --> 0:21:48.200 needs to be enough of the natural landscape left intact 0:21:48.680 --> 0:21:52.920 so that you allow the golfer to connect with the 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:56.120 natural terrain. I think, in my opinion, now your point 0:21:56.119 --> 0:21:58.959 about routing makes me think of you know something that 0:21:59.200 --> 0:22:02.639 I I often like to say about Golden Age architects, 0:22:02.680 --> 0:22:05.879 and that's that, you know, why is it that so 0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:09.040 many Golden Age architects from the tens, twenties, and thirties 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:13.200 were so good at routing. It wasn't because they're smarter 0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:17.120 than today's architects. It wasn't because they're smarter than Tom 0:22:17.160 --> 0:22:20.240 Fazio or Jack Nicholas. It was because they had to 0:22:20.240 --> 0:22:23.400 be good at routing right to make the courses work 0:22:23.440 --> 0:22:26.240 at all. They couldn't move stuff around that much, so 0:22:26.320 --> 0:22:28.800 they had to figure out how to make their courses 0:22:29.400 --> 0:22:32.600 linked together, and in order to do that, they had 0:22:32.640 --> 0:22:35.119 to be really good at routing, had to work a 0:22:35.160 --> 0:22:38.359