WEBVTT - Thinking Sideways: The Falling Soldier 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.120 Thinking Sideways is not brought to you by spam emails 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:07.200 about spam protection new Instead, it's brought to you by 0:00:07.440 --> 0:00:10.799 crime Con. That's right. Crime Con is back this year. 0:00:10.800 --> 0:00:13.840 It's going to be in Nashville, Tennessee, on May four 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:16.640 through the sixth. That's the weekend. Thank god. Uh if 0:00:16.720 --> 0:00:18.799 there's gonna be lots of famous people you've heard of 0:00:18.840 --> 0:00:21.320 and seeing on TV. There's gonna be true crime authors, 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:26.800 real police type persons and retired police type persons and 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:29.600 all kinds of stuff like that, plus podcasters. Yeah, we're 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:31.920 gonna be there for one thing. And of course it's 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:34.400 gonna be in Nashville, so that's a cool town. That's 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:36.680 that's gonna be fun right in and of itself. So 0:00:36.840 --> 0:00:39.159 come and see us. We'll probably have a meet up too. 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:42.040 So we go to crime con dot com use supremo 0:00:42.120 --> 0:00:45.000 code sideways and you will get ten percent off your 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:48.600 ticket price. So remember that crime con dot com promo 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:53.760 code sideways. Thinking Sideways podcast is also brought to you 0:00:53.800 --> 0:00:56.639 by the audiobook Condition of the Wife between Us by 0:00:56.680 --> 0:01:00.200 Grea Hendrix and Sarah Peckin. In Yes, you now hear 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:03.760 the story. Listeners are calling wow, just wow, and one 0:01:03.760 --> 0:01:05.960 of the best audio books ever. Here's what the New 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:09.520 York Times book review said, quote A friendlessly smart cat 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:12.520 and masks thriller. Unquote it sounds like something I might 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:14.920 just read myself, or better still, I'll pick up the 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:18.920 audiobook and listen to it. Uh. It is a narrated 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:23.000 by Julia Whalen. It's twisty psychological suspense about a jealous wife. 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:25.759 But it's not what you think it is. So start 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:37.560 listening now. I McMillan audio dot com slash wife between us. 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:52.200 It's quickly start working. Well, hey there, and welcome again 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:56.480 to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I am Steve, joined 0:01:56.520 --> 0:02:02.280 as usual by Devin and Joe were and this week, 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:04.720 once again, we're going to talk about a mystery. But 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:07.600 as I said last week, we are not going to 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:09.680 talk about the same kind of mystery that we've been 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:12.400 talking about for several weeks in a row, which is 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:15.120 the gory grossky. Yeah, we're going to do that thing 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:17.880 that we do because we're a podcast about unsolved mystery 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:20.200 is not true crime, and talk about something that's like 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:22.680 a mystery that is totally not gory. It does involve 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:30.079 somebody getting shot to death. There's no crime. This no mystery. No, 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:33.280 the only thing there is the mystery. Okay, alright, Actually, 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:35.280 if it depends on who you ask. I mean, as 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:37.640 some people consider the entire Spanish Civil War to be 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:40.640 a huge crime, that's true. That's true. Okay, Well listen, 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:45.080 here's here's the deal is. Today's mystery is entirely centered 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:50.120 around the authenticity of a photograph that is commonly known 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:55.239 as the Falling Soldier. And this photo, which you've probably seen, 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:59.960 was taken in ninety six and shows a Republican soldier 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:05.320 during the Spanish Civil War who's in midfall after supposedly 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:08.000 having been shot and killed. And here's the thing is, 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:12.919 I had never ever seen this photo. I don't think 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:15.880 I had supposedly like one of the most famous war 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:19.440 photos ever taken. Great, here's but here's what I'm telling you, 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:23.680 as as a sovereign human, is that I genuinely never 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:25.800 seen this photo before. And if you have not, if 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:29.000 you are like Devin, stop now look up. Go look 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:34.320 up the Falling Soldier by Robert Kappa, or check out 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:37.640 our website Thinking podcast dot com. There will be a 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:41.440 picture right there too. So let's let's give you the 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:45.080 mystery here let's give you a little description. So our soldier. 0:03:45.240 --> 0:03:48.240 He's wearing a white shirt, he's got light colored pants on. 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:52.320 He's got this really distinct set of ammunition bags with 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:57.960 suspenders holding them up on his shoulders, and he's falling 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:03.040 backwards his knees your and his right arm is fully outstretched. 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:06.120 He's got a rifle in his hand, it's almost dropping 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:10.280 or flinging it away from himself, but his body is 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:14.800 twisting to the left, away from where the photographer is. 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:18.560 Did the rifle have a bayonet on it? Okay, no 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:21.080 it did not, But he is turning away. That's not 0:04:21.120 --> 0:04:25.400 a stupid question. Yeah, that was a thing during that time. 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:30.440 It still is. Technically you don't fix for the charge. Yeah, 0:04:30.480 --> 0:04:33.280 but no, he's he's twisting away and his head is 0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:37.760 turned also to the left, away from the photographer. And 0:04:37.960 --> 0:04:40.680 people say that he has just either been shot in 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:43.880 the chest or shot in the head, and that this 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:49.279 photo has literally captured him in the moment that he dies. 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:53.200 So that's that's what really gets everybody up, is like, 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:57.320 this is such an amazingly it's such an amazing capture 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:01.919 my photographer, and captured an extremely random way. Also, yeah, 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:05.000 that you've heard the story about well, yeah, well we'll 0:05:05.040 --> 0:05:07.720 talk about that shortly. Um, I want to tell everybody 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:10.279 who took the photo of first, it was taken by 0:05:10.720 --> 0:05:14.880 a photo actually very very famous now today, well known 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:20.160 photographer and beginning then he was a beginning photo journalists. Yeah, 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:22.560 he just started out. And that's a guy by the 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:28.240 name of Robert Kappa. And to this day, though people say, listen, 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:32.320 Kappa really did take that photo in the conditions he said, 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:37.280 or no, that photo was a fake and it's not real, 0:05:37.800 --> 0:05:40.480 even though as Joe said, it's considered one of the 0:05:40.520 --> 0:05:45.440 best photos from a war. Fake. I know your mind 0:05:45.440 --> 0:05:48.320 are going, I think it's been photoshop. Just this guy 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:51.880 pretended to get shot, right, he would actually get killed 0:05:51.880 --> 0:06:00.320 in the circumstances that are described surrounding this. Yeah, photo shop, 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:04.800 weird ai monster, none of those, none of those two, 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:11.360 none of that maybe but probably Okay, okay, So let's 0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:13.159 start at the beginning here. Let me give you a 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:16.480 little bit about Robert Kappa, and then we'll move into 0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:19.400 the situation that leads him to be where he was 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:24.360 to take the photo. Kappa was originally he was born 0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:28.320 with the name Andre Friedman. He was born in Budapest 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:34.000 nine and he was Jewish, and that would be something 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:37.240 that would push him across Europe and eventually to the 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:42.159 New World, to the America's based on the political climates 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:46.240 in Europe at the time. He left Hungry when he 0:06:46.320 --> 0:06:50.000 was accused of being a Communist sympathizer, which he would 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:51.600 then say, okay, well I gotta get out of here. 0:06:51.600 --> 0:06:54.440 Like literally they said, well, they said, listen, if you 0:06:54.440 --> 0:06:56.279 get out of town in twenty four hours and don't 0:06:56.279 --> 0:06:58.560 come back to the country, we won't do anything to you. 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:03.159 So he had the bad fortunate of choosing Germany. Well, actually, 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:05.080 I wouldn't say, you know, as I say that it's 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:09.200 not bad bad fortune because that is where he was 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:12.160 able to learn and perfect some of his trade, which 0:07:12.200 --> 0:07:14.760 is photography, and it actually is what launched his career. 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:17.239 I mean. The other option there is right that maybe 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:19.920 he like actually was a Nazi and like intentionally moved 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:22.080 to Germany and then like later in life was like 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:25.440 that was a mistake. No, no, no, he was definitely 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:28.440 against what the Nazi stood for, so that is definitely 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:30.800 not great. But I'm not sure how many Jews were 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:36.520 pro Nazis. Nobody's ever heard from them again, but no, 0:07:36.720 --> 0:07:39.760 so he went there. He stayed in Germany for about 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:43.480 two years where he learned his his craft, and then 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:47.000 he left in nineteen thirty three and he moved to Paris, 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:51.320 where the Germans will never never get him. That was 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:53.440 the thing about that war, though, right, is that like 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:57.160 he could pretty much move almost anywhere in your Yeah, 0:07:57.200 --> 0:08:00.840 pretty much. Yeah. So he gets to he to Germany. 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:03.800 He meets a bunch of other immigrants there who are 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:09.480 also become these huge names in photography. But while he's there, 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:12.560 he meets this woman and her name is I listened 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:14.000 to her name so many times and I know I'm 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:18.520 gonna mess it up, and I apologize. It is Gerta pohorl. 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:21.320 I believe that's how you say it. And if I again, 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:23.520 I apologize, if I if I mispronounced that, Like I said, 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:25.720 I listened to it on a documentary a bunch of 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:30.280 times and I couldn't. She can't complain. Well, now, that's 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:33.040 that's kind of that's heartless. But the point is here 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:38.760 she and Andre Friedman meet. They they begin to they're 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:43.280 both photographers. They're trying to sell photos and get jobs, 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:45.600 but they're not really making any money, and she comes 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:49.080 up with this brilliant scheme. She's the one that kind 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:52.640 of makes Robert Kappa because here's what she figures out 0:08:52.720 --> 0:08:55.840 is that as a Jewish man, he is having a 0:08:55.960 --> 0:09:01.000 very hard time because there's there's prejudices and people just 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:03.360 don't want to pay money for photos from this run 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:06.640 of the middle photo guy anyway. But if they say, 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:08.440 and this is what they do, they say, listen, there's 0:09:08.480 --> 0:09:13.160 actually this very famous photographer named Robert Kappa from America, 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:16.640 and he's here and I'm negotiating on his behalf and 0:09:16.760 --> 0:09:19.400 it would be an insult for you to not pay 0:09:19.480 --> 0:09:23.520 him X amount for his photos. Well, his photos were 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:26.360 good enough, and like, well, we'll go ahead, we'll bring us, 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:28.760 bring us to this job. And they got it and 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:31.840 they get paid it. I feel like they pull the 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:36.040 whole thing off. I really feel like this like speaks 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:38.200 so deeply to me because I have this like deep 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:41.160 seated belief that like women by and large are the 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:43.880 ones who like hustle. We are the ones who like 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:47.360 come up with these amazing like business schemes and really 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:51.360 like hustle to make things happen. And oftentimes it's I mean, yeah, 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:53.680 but oftentimes it is to you know, build up somebody 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:55.560 that you care about, often like a man that you 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:58.400 care about. But regardless, I just like that speaks to 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:00.319 me on such a deep level that she was like, no, 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:02.720 you know what we should do is just lie about it. 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:07.920 At the same time, she reinvented herself though. She changed 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:12.640 her name to Gerda Taro at the same time and 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:15.920 started pitching her photos as well, and so she was 0:10:15.960 --> 0:10:18.920 selling stuff. The long story is, or the short version 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:20.960 of this though, is that it works. They start making 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:25.640 money their travels, they start getting commissions. One of the 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:28.840 things that they do is they realize that there's the 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:33.800 civil war starting in Spain and they have this naive 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:37.400 idea of they want to capture war on film and 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:41.320 show the you know, what's happening to the people and 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:44.400 things that you just didn't see because war traditionally was 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:48.079 only pictures snapped of like the general's the big wigs 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:50.520 talking and having the conferences, and not the guy in 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:53.520 the trench bleeding to death. So why do you classify 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:57.200 that as a naive idea because the way I've understood 0:10:57.320 --> 0:10:59.640 is that it's it's that very young idea of we're 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:01.920 going to what it's going to be beautiful and nothing's 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:08.240 going to happen, And yeah, I guess that wasn't that 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:13.280 doesn't work out in the long run to be a wonderful, beautiful, 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:18.480 artistic experience in it becomes very dirty. And that wasn't 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:20.600 necessarily the sense that I had. I mean, they both 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:24.360 came from kind of war torn places, and they they 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:29.000 understood the idea of feeling like it was important to 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:35.959 capture the realities of would be Yeah, I guess it 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:38.719 just it feels to me like they were making very 0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:41.640 conscious decision to go in. I mean, a lot of 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:44.200 journalists do this too right now, where they make this 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:47.160 conscious decision to go in because they think it's important 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:50.040 that it's not just the generals in their pretty uniforms 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:53.280 in their beautiful rooms that they're oak table, right, and 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:56.200 that's that everybody should know what war actually looks like. 0:11:56.440 --> 0:11:59.199 And you know, again, yes, it's maybe a little naive 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:02.400 to assume that bad things won't happen to them, or 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:04.320 that it's going to be fun and beautiful, but I 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:07.160 think they it's my sense that they had at least 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:10.240 a pretty realistic idea of what a war torn place 0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:14.600 looks like. Personality. Yeah, this is also not a new idea. 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:17.840 I mean they've been ever since photography began, people have 0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:21.760 been taking pictures. Yeah, a new idea, absolutely, But I 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:24.160 didn't think that as a as a war correspondent, you 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:26.400 do have the luxury of being able to pop in 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:29.480 and take some pictures, it's interview and then leave, you know, 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:32.080 which is not something the guys in the trenches get 0:12:32.160 --> 0:12:35.080 to do. That's that's the really horrible thing about warrible 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:37.240 besides getting arms and legs blown off, you know, but 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:41.000 it's just living in these awful conditions for weeks months. 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:43.800 But see that was that was eventually that would be 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:47.000 the thing that distinguished Robert Kappa so much is that 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:50.400 he would pop into a trench or a foxhole, sit 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:53.080 there and smoke a cigarette and talk to a guy, 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:56.000 a kid who is freaking the f out because he's 0:12:56.280 --> 0:13:00.360 everything he's called with the day, you know, wwing up 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:03.240 all around. He's just having a conversation kids, able to 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:06.120 kind of focus in. Like I've watched documentaries and people 0:13:06.120 --> 0:13:09.400 like he was amazing, Like this stuff didn't stuff is 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:11.400 not the word I wanted to use, But it didn't 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:14.160 phase him. He just didn't. He just so he had 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:16.520 that kind which is why I kind of had that 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:18.559 sense of like they knew what they were getting into. 0:13:19.000 --> 0:13:22.200 I mean, they hadn't seen a lot of developed nature, 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:24.520 and that could be that could again be like a 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:27.760 impression of them. They could have gone into it totally 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:29.920 blind and it just happened that they were good at it. 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:31.480 They could have been like, this is going to be 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:35.960 beautiful and amazing. It's gonna be like woodstock all over again. Okay, 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:38.200 so there are there's such a thing. Actually, there's some 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:45.120 been some beautiful war photography. It's really huntingly beautiful. So 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:47.240 here's so. Like I said, though, let's get back into 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:48.800 this part of the story. At the beginning of what 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:53.199 leads up to the Falling Soldier is that they get 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:56.800 this commission, and I believe it's View magazine, which is 0:13:56.800 --> 0:13:59.360 a French magazine. They get a commission, they go to 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:02.520 Pain to check out the war, and I'm going to 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:07.720 give you the loosest, loosest basic primer on what the 0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:12.880 Spanish Civil War was. There's tons of information out there, 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:15.920 and if you want to dive deep into this do so. 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:18.880 It's very interesting, but it's not our total focus here. 0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:21.960 But basically the disclaimer here is basically like, this is 0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:26.120 not a podcast about the Spanish. So the simple, simple 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:30.440 version is between the late nineteen teens to the nineteen 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:34.960 thirties in Spain, there's a series of political upheavals. The 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:41.440 monarchy becomes unpopular and unstable, and things like communism and 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:47.600 socialism and right wing fascism start gaining ground. E mentionally, 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:50.880 everybody is piste off at everybody else, like it's just 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:55.040 dirty and not good. And there's some unsuccessful coups in 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:59.400 the early thirties, and then there is one that goes 0:14:59.480 --> 0:15:04.400 off literally with a bang, and everybody is at each 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:08.960 other's throats and they the country divides into two parties. 0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:12.920 There's the Republicans, which are called the Popular Front, and 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:18.320 the Nationals nationalists, who are the anti communists, and they 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:24.760 go at it for I think four yeah, three, about 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:27.440 three years is how long the Spanish Civil War lasted. 0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:31.800 That is the basic, most basic of that's like not 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:37.920 even the Wikipedia intro to the actually the if you 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:41.280 want any any reading on it. George Orwell was took 0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:43.680 part in the war. He was in the trenches. George 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:50.000 or Well, the the film director George Well the the writer. Yes, yes, yeah, 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:52.880 he wrote yeah, yeah, well yeah, but you wrote a 0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:57.320 book about about his experiences called Homage to Catalonia, which 0:15:57.400 --> 0:16:00.360 is a pretty good read. It doesn't and he is 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:03.400 it pains to say. He doesn't talk about it completely. 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:05.760 He talks about his corner of the war, the things 0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:07.680 that he saw, but also tries to explain some of 0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:10.520 the overarching groups and what they were all about and stuff. 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:13.040 And he doesn't claim that he explains the entire thing 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:16.480 in total detail. Yeah, it seems almost impossible to do that. 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:21.520 The Spanish Civil War is extremely complicated anywhere, and well, yeah, 0:16:21.840 --> 0:16:24.160 it's one of the more complicated ones out there because 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:26.440 it's the first one where not only is the country 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:30.200 fighting itself, but this is where the bigger European powers 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:33.840 like the like the uss are, the Communist nation and 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:36.760 the Germans and the Americans, like all these different forces 0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:41.040 are starting to push stuff in. It's it's a testing ground. 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:43.320 It would become World War two. There was. Yeah, there 0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:46.240 was a lot of a lot of international interference. A 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:49.400 lot of people came from far and wide to participate 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:51.840 on both sides of the war. Again like or a well, 0:16:51.880 --> 0:16:54.160 for example, Ernest Hemingway was another one, and there's some 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:56.560 of the famous figures you could name. Tons of people 0:16:56.560 --> 0:17:01.040 fought in that war. And uh, it's also I think unique, 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:04.480 or at least the first war really that is totally 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:07.920 shrouded in clouds of BS. I mean it's a lot 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:11.840 of there's a lot of BS surrounding this war. That's 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:14.199 that really has followed us down to this to the 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:16.919 to the present day. Well, and I can't disagree with 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:19.040 you because I I really what I wanted to have. 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:21.199 As you guys know, I've done this before. I'm going 0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:22.960 to give you a two and a half to three 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:26.640 paragraph description of this war. And as I read it, 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:30.480 it just became more and more convoluted. So that's a 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:34.080 that is a great description of the problems with explaining 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:36.320 this this conflict. Well, yeah, and I don't mean that 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:38.119 the people the war was BS. I just mean a 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:42.119 lot of the commentary afterwards, the interpretations that people that 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:45.159 put on the war and the people fighting it and 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:48.840 everything else are mostly BS. Yeah, and so with that, 0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:51.199 let's let's move forward. Because I think the one the 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:54.880 one pertinent bit of information about the Spanish Civil War 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:59.160 is when it began, because that plays into the date 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:02.120 of the capture of the image of the falling soldier. 0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:07.679 The war began in July ninety six. Okay, we're going 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:12.840 to move in. And supposedly the photo the falling Soldier 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:18.080 was taken in September. We don't know when in September, 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:21.560 but in September of nineteen thirty six. There's some things 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:23.680 that can kind of maybe help us figure that out. 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:26.919 The first of which is when the photo ran, the 0:18:26.960 --> 0:18:29.800 original run date of it. Because if you remember, I said, 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:37.560 there was View magazine back in Paris, not v Iu. Yeah, 0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:39.560 it's not like the View like yeah, no, that's a 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:42.040 different show entirely with four women on it. No, they 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:46.280 were not there. But now this magazine would run the 0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:49.439 image along with several of quite a few other of 0:18:49.560 --> 0:18:54.200 Robert Kappa's images in the September twenty three, nineteen thirty 0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:57.639 six issue lost the word issue. So he took it 0:18:57.640 --> 0:18:59.879 at least no later than that morning then and then 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:04.600 imediately downloaded it to the internet. There is there is 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:08.119 no internet, there's no editing. He had to hand off 0:19:08.240 --> 0:19:11.720 undeveloped natives to a pilot who would then fly them 0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:14.200 back to Paris, where they would go to a dark room, 0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:17.359 get developed, and then get integrated into the magazine and 0:19:17.440 --> 0:19:21.439 not going to be at least days. And that's the 0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:25.720 corroborated that was the process. He didn't ever see his 0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:29.120 own I mean, he didn't develop on site. No, he didn't. 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:31.320 He did have I think back in Paris he had 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:34.040 he did have a dark room, dark room, yeah, but 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:37.680 but he was he was still in Spain when he 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:44.240 probably taking pictures presumably, right. But so, I mean that's 0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:47.240 kind of a frustrating little detail in this, right is that. 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:50.120 I mean, we've all all everybody in this room at 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:55.520 least has shot film with a camera. Film come back well, 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:57.520 and and that you like kind of you stick it 0:19:57.520 --> 0:20:00.199 in your tube and you say, like, I mean, how 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:02.160 much can you say about it? You can't ever go through, 0:20:02.240 --> 0:20:04.359 especially if you don't have a dark room, right, you 0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:06.159 don't have the chance to go through and say like 0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:10.080 frame one, roll one, this is where I took it, 0:20:10.359 --> 0:20:15.280 frame to roll one. Actually, actually a counter to that 0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:18.440 is because as you two know, I'm in a photography 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:20.360 class right now because I shoot all the time and 0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:23.240 one of the things that I don't do because digital 0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:26.919 makes this so much easier. But this instructor is really 0:20:27.080 --> 0:20:30.040 really pressing on us, and he is old school, a 0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:34.320 very old school. Is you have a notebook. You you 0:20:34.400 --> 0:20:38.199 write down your shot numbers and your exposure time and 0:20:38.200 --> 0:20:40.199 your ugh stop and stuff like that. Now, as a 0:20:40.200 --> 0:20:43.720 war photographer, you can't do that because you're just blazing away. 0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:46.800 But you can stop and write roll to one five 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:50.800 to one five, this date, this event, like you can 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:54.919 give the track. It's not like today where you can 0:20:54.960 --> 0:20:56.840 actually just go to the image and look in the 0:20:56.920 --> 0:21:00.800 data in there. It is. You're sure that he there 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:04.360 was some taking place, but you know this image particularly 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:06.840 that we're talking about, and the kind of photography he 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:11.119 was doing, we're talking like actual battlefield like bullets flying 0:21:11.200 --> 0:21:14.960 over your head photography. So I presume that he wasn't 0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:20.960 also like picture snap okay, note book okay, picture snap notebook. No, 0:21:21.080 --> 0:21:22.520 I mean you know, you have to kind of take 0:21:22.560 --> 0:21:24.880 that back. And so that's something else that I would 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:27.600 just add it to the layer layer complexity, like on 0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:32.560 a role basis the role and then make a note word. 0:21:32.760 --> 0:21:35.679 And so that's that added complexity of us not actually 0:21:35.680 --> 0:21:40.560 having him saying to the publisher this is what I got. Well, 0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:44.040 and here's the other problem is there's the influence or 0:21:44.080 --> 0:21:48.760 the input of the publisher of the photos, because at 0:21:48.760 --> 0:21:51.119 the time that it runs into view, they say that 0:21:51.200 --> 0:21:56.080 the photo was taken in Cordeoba, Spain, but other people 0:21:56.280 --> 0:21:59.680 have come along after the fact and said, oh no, 0:22:00.320 --> 0:22:03.719 that was taken in Sarah Mariano, I believe is how 0:22:03.800 --> 0:22:07.520 you pronounced that city's name. Now, that might not sound 0:22:07.520 --> 0:22:10.199 like a big deal because those two cities are about 0:22:10.240 --> 0:22:13.840 eight miles or twelve kilometers apart, but if there's a war, 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:17.160 that could actually be pretty important. And as we'll find 0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:21.000 later on, there's even more locations that are suggested where 0:22:21.040 --> 0:22:23.399 this photo might have been taken. So that draws it 0:22:23.440 --> 0:22:27.080 out to not eight miles and twelve kilometers, but thirty 0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:30.960 miles and what is that like eighty kilometers roughly difference. 0:22:31.000 --> 0:22:33.919 I mean, this can be huge differences and where the 0:22:33.960 --> 0:22:38.800 battlefront is. So that also throws, you know, question of 0:22:39.040 --> 0:22:41.040 was he taking in the serene place or was it 0:22:41.040 --> 0:22:45.120 somewhere where all hell was breaking loose. For his part, 0:22:45.480 --> 0:22:50.720 Robert Kappa never really talked about this photo and what 0:22:50.840 --> 0:22:53.560 the circumstances around it. He's really kind of tight lipped 0:22:53.560 --> 0:22:55.600 around it, which was weird. Because he was such an 0:22:55.600 --> 0:23:00.879 outgoing and and very fun and playful man. And you subscribe, 0:23:00.920 --> 0:23:04.000 I'll talk about all the few different reasons. Yeah I have. 0:23:04.040 --> 0:23:07.879 I have some ideas too. But according to him, in 0:23:08.080 --> 0:23:12.520 one of the few interviews that he did, what he 0:23:12.600 --> 0:23:16.240 said was, actually, Joe, do you mind reading this? It 0:23:16.280 --> 0:23:19.359 seems right up your ally, my friend with the Hungarian accident. No, no, 0:23:19.520 --> 0:23:25.399 just do it, please don't. In fact, quote, I was 0:23:25.440 --> 0:23:28.919 there in the trench with about twenty Melicianos. I just 0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:31.320 kind of put my camera above my head and didn't 0:23:31.359 --> 0:23:33.920 even look and click the picture when they moved over 0:23:33.960 --> 0:23:36.919 the trench, and that was all That camera, which I 0:23:36.960 --> 0:23:39.000