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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways is not brought to you by spam emails

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Speaker 1: code sideways. Thinking Sideways podcast is also brought to you

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Speaker 1: by the audiobook Condition of the Wife between Us by

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Speaker 1: It's quickly start working. Well, hey there, and welcome again

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Speaker 1: to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I am Steve, joined

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Speaker 1: as usual by Devin and Joe were and this week,

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Speaker 1: once again, we're going to talk about a mystery. But

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Speaker 1: as I said last week, we are not going to

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Speaker 1: talk about the same kind of mystery that we've been

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Speaker 1: talking about for several weeks in a row, which is

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Speaker 1: the gory grossky. Yeah, we're going to do that thing

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Speaker 1: that we do because we're a podcast about unsolved mystery

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Speaker 1: is not true crime, and talk about something that's like

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Speaker 1: a mystery that is totally not gory. It does involve

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Speaker 1: somebody getting shot to death. There's no crime. This no mystery. No,

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Speaker 1: the only thing there is the mystery. Okay, alright, Actually,

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Speaker 1: if it depends on who you ask. I mean, as

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Speaker 1: some people consider the entire Spanish Civil War to be

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Speaker 1: a huge crime, that's true. That's true. Okay, Well listen,

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Speaker 1: here's here's the deal is. Today's mystery is entirely centered

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Speaker 1: around the authenticity of a photograph that is commonly known

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Speaker 1: as the Falling Soldier. And this photo, which you've probably seen,

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Speaker 1: was taken in ninety six and shows a Republican soldier

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Speaker 1: during the Spanish Civil War who's in midfall after supposedly

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Speaker 1: having been shot and killed. And here's the thing is,

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Speaker 1: I had never ever seen this photo. I don't think

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Speaker 1: I had supposedly like one of the most famous war

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Speaker 1: photos ever taken. Great, here's but here's what I'm telling you,

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Speaker 1: as as a sovereign human, is that I genuinely never

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Speaker 1: seen this photo before. And if you have not, if

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Speaker 1: you are like Devin, stop now look up. Go look

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Speaker 1: up the Falling Soldier by Robert Kappa, or check out

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Speaker 1: our website Thinking podcast dot com. There will be a

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Speaker 1: picture right there too. So let's let's give you the

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Speaker 1: mystery here let's give you a little description. So our soldier.

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Speaker 1: He's wearing a white shirt, he's got light colored pants on.

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Speaker 1: He's got this really distinct set of ammunition bags with

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Speaker 1: suspenders holding them up on his shoulders, and he's falling

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Speaker 1: backwards his knees your and his right arm is fully outstretched.

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Speaker 1: He's got a rifle in his hand, it's almost dropping

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Speaker 1: or flinging it away from himself, but his body is

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Speaker 1: twisting to the left, away from where the photographer is.

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Speaker 1: Did the rifle have a bayonet on it? Okay, no

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Speaker 1: it did not, But he is turning away. That's not

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Speaker 1: a stupid question. Yeah, that was a thing during that time.

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Speaker 1: It still is. Technically you don't fix for the charge. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but no, he's he's twisting away and his head is

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Speaker 1: turned also to the left, away from the photographer. And

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Speaker 1: people say that he has just either been shot in

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Speaker 1: the chest or shot in the head, and that this

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Speaker 1: photo has literally captured him in the moment that he dies.

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Speaker 1: So that's that's what really gets everybody up, is like,

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Speaker 1: this is such an amazingly it's such an amazing capture

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Speaker 1: my photographer, and captured an extremely random way. Also, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that you've heard the story about well, yeah, well we'll

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Speaker 1: talk about that shortly. Um, I want to tell everybody

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Speaker 1: who took the photo of first, it was taken by

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Speaker 1: a photo actually very very famous now today, well known

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Speaker 1: photographer and beginning then he was a beginning photo journalists. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he just started out. And that's a guy by the

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Speaker 1: name of Robert Kappa. And to this day, though people say, listen,

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Speaker 1: Kappa really did take that photo in the conditions he said,

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Speaker 1: or no, that photo was a fake and it's not real,

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Speaker 1: even though as Joe said, it's considered one of the

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Speaker 1: best photos from a war. Fake. I know your mind

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Speaker 1: are going, I think it's been photoshop. Just this guy

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Speaker 1: pretended to get shot, right, he would actually get killed

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Speaker 1: in the circumstances that are described surrounding this. Yeah, photo shop,

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Speaker 1: weird ai monster, none of those, none of those two,

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Speaker 1: none of that maybe but probably Okay, okay, So let's

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Speaker 1: start at the beginning here. Let me give you a

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Speaker 1: little bit about Robert Kappa, and then we'll move into

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Speaker 1: the situation that leads him to be where he was

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Speaker 1: to take the photo. Kappa was originally he was born

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Speaker 1: with the name Andre Friedman. He was born in Budapest

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Speaker 1: nine and he was Jewish, and that would be something

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Speaker 1: that would push him across Europe and eventually to the

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Speaker 1: New World, to the America's based on the political climates

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Speaker 1: in Europe at the time. He left Hungry when he

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Speaker 1: was accused of being a Communist sympathizer, which he would

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Speaker 1: then say, okay, well I gotta get out of here.

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Speaker 1: Like literally they said, well, they said, listen, if you

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Speaker 1: get out of town in twenty four hours and don't

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Speaker 1: come back to the country, we won't do anything to you.

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Speaker 1: So he had the bad fortunate of choosing Germany. Well, actually,

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't say, you know, as I say that it's

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Speaker 1: not bad bad fortune because that is where he was

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Speaker 1: able to learn and perfect some of his trade, which

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Speaker 1: is photography, and it actually is what launched his career.

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Speaker 1: I mean. The other option there is right that maybe

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Speaker 1: he like actually was a Nazi and like intentionally moved

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Speaker 1: to Germany and then like later in life was like

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Speaker 1: that was a mistake. No, no, no, he was definitely

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Speaker 1: against what the Nazi stood for, so that is definitely

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Speaker 1: not great. But I'm not sure how many Jews were

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Speaker 1: pro Nazis. Nobody's ever heard from them again, but no,

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Speaker 1: so he went there. He stayed in Germany for about

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Speaker 1: two years where he learned his his craft, and then

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Speaker 1: he left in nineteen thirty three and he moved to Paris,

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Speaker 1: where the Germans will never never get him. That was

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Speaker 1: the thing about that war, though, right, is that like

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Speaker 1: he could pretty much move almost anywhere in your Yeah,

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Speaker 1: pretty much. Yeah. So he gets to he to Germany.

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Speaker 1: He meets a bunch of other immigrants there who are

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Speaker 1: also become these huge names in photography. But while he's there,

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Speaker 1: he meets this woman and her name is I listened

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Speaker 1: to her name so many times and I know I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna mess it up, and I apologize. It is Gerta pohorl.

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Speaker 1: I believe that's how you say it. And if I again,

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Speaker 1: I apologize, if I if I mispronounced that, Like I said,

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Speaker 1: I listened to it on a documentary a bunch of

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Speaker 1: times and I couldn't. She can't complain. Well, now, that's

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Speaker 1: that's kind of that's heartless. But the point is here

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Speaker 1: she and Andre Friedman meet. They they begin to they're

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Speaker 1: both photographers. They're trying to sell photos and get jobs,

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Speaker 1: but they're not really making any money, and she comes

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Speaker 1: up with this brilliant scheme. She's the one that kind

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Speaker 1: of makes Robert Kappa because here's what she figures out

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Speaker 1: is that as a Jewish man, he is having a

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Speaker 1: very hard time because there's there's prejudices and people just

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Speaker 1: don't want to pay money for photos from this run

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Speaker 1: of the middle photo guy anyway. But if they say,

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Speaker 1: and this is what they do, they say, listen, there's

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Speaker 1: actually this very famous photographer named Robert Kappa from America,

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Speaker 1: and he's here and I'm negotiating on his behalf and

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Speaker 1: it would be an insult for you to not pay

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Speaker 1: him X amount for his photos. Well, his photos were

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Speaker 1: good enough, and like, well, we'll go ahead, we'll bring us,

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Speaker 1: bring us to this job. And they got it and

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Speaker 1: they get paid it. I feel like they pull the

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Speaker 1: whole thing off. I really feel like this like speaks

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Speaker 1: so deeply to me because I have this like deep

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Speaker 1: seated belief that like women by and large are the

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Speaker 1: ones who like hustle. We are the ones who like

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Speaker 1: come up with these amazing like business schemes and really

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Speaker 1: like hustle to make things happen. And oftentimes it's I mean, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but oftentimes it is to you know, build up somebody

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Speaker 1: that you care about, often like a man that you

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Speaker 1: care about. But regardless, I just like that speaks to

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Speaker 1: me on such a deep level that she was like, no,

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Speaker 1: you know what we should do is just lie about it.

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Speaker 1: At the same time, she reinvented herself though. She changed

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Speaker 1: her name to Gerda Taro at the same time and

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Speaker 1: started pitching her photos as well, and so she was

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Speaker 1: selling stuff. The long story is, or the short version

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Speaker 1: of this though, is that it works. They start making

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Speaker 1: money their travels, they start getting commissions. One of the

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Speaker 1: things that they do is they realize that there's the

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Speaker 1: civil war starting in Spain and they have this naive

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Speaker 1: idea of they want to capture war on film and

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Speaker 1: show the you know, what's happening to the people and

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Speaker 1: things that you just didn't see because war traditionally was

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Speaker 1: only pictures snapped of like the general's the big wigs

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Speaker 1: talking and having the conferences, and not the guy in

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Speaker 1: the trench bleeding to death. So why do you classify

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Speaker 1: that as a naive idea because the way I've understood

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Speaker 1: is that it's it's that very young idea of we're

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Speaker 1: going to what it's going to be beautiful and nothing's

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Speaker 1: going to happen, And yeah, I guess that wasn't that

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Speaker 1: doesn't work out in the long run to be a wonderful, beautiful,

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Speaker 1: artistic experience in it becomes very dirty. And that wasn't

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Speaker 1: necessarily the sense that I had. I mean, they both

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Speaker 1: came from kind of war torn places, and they they

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Speaker 1: understood the idea of feeling like it was important to

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Speaker 1: capture the realities of would be Yeah, I guess it

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Speaker 1: just it feels to me like they were making very

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Speaker 1: conscious decision to go in. I mean, a lot of

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Speaker 1: journalists do this too right now, where they make this

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Speaker 1: conscious decision to go in because they think it's important

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Speaker 1: that it's not just the generals in their pretty uniforms

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Speaker 1: in their beautiful rooms that they're oak table, right, and

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Speaker 1: that's that everybody should know what war actually looks like.

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Speaker 1: And you know, again, yes, it's maybe a little naive

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Speaker 1: to assume that bad things won't happen to them, or

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Speaker 1: that it's going to be fun and beautiful, but I

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Speaker 1: think they it's my sense that they had at least

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Speaker 1: a pretty realistic idea of what a war torn place

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Speaker 1: looks like. Personality. Yeah, this is also not a new idea.

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Speaker 1: I mean they've been ever since photography began, people have

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Speaker 1: been taking pictures. Yeah, a new idea, absolutely, But I

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Speaker 1: didn't think that as a as a war correspondent, you

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Speaker 1: do have the luxury of being able to pop in

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Speaker 1: and take some pictures, it's interview and then leave, you know,

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Speaker 1: which is not something the guys in the trenches get

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Speaker 1: to do. That's that's the really horrible thing about warrible

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Speaker 1: besides getting arms and legs blown off, you know, but

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Speaker 1: it's just living in these awful conditions for weeks months.

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Speaker 1: But see that was that was eventually that would be

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Speaker 1: the thing that distinguished Robert Kappa so much is that

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Speaker 1: he would pop into a trench or a foxhole, sit

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Speaker 1: there and smoke a cigarette and talk to a guy,

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Speaker 1: a kid who is freaking the f out because he's

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Speaker 1: everything he's called with the day, you know, wwing up

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Speaker 1: all around. He's just having a conversation kids, able to

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Speaker 1: kind of focus in. Like I've watched documentaries and people

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Speaker 1: like he was amazing, Like this stuff didn't stuff is

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Speaker 1: not the word I wanted to use, But it didn't

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Speaker 1: phase him. He just didn't. He just so he had

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Speaker 1: that kind which is why I kind of had that

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Speaker 1: sense of like they knew what they were getting into.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they hadn't seen a lot of developed nature,

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Speaker 1: and that could be that could again be like a

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Speaker 1: impression of them. They could have gone into it totally

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Speaker 1: blind and it just happened that they were good at it.

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Speaker 1: They could have been like, this is going to be

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Speaker 1: beautiful and amazing. It's gonna be like woodstock all over again. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so there are there's such a thing. Actually, there's some

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Speaker 1: been some beautiful war photography. It's really huntingly beautiful. So

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Speaker 1: here's so. Like I said, though, let's get back into

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Speaker 1: this part of the story. At the beginning of what

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Speaker 1: leads up to the Falling Soldier is that they get

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Speaker 1: this commission, and I believe it's View magazine, which is

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Speaker 1: a French magazine. They get a commission, they go to

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Speaker 1: Pain to check out the war, and I'm going to

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Speaker 1: give you the loosest, loosest basic primer on what the

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Speaker 1: Spanish Civil War was. There's tons of information out there,

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Speaker 1: and if you want to dive deep into this do so.

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Speaker 1: It's very interesting, but it's not our total focus here.

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Speaker 1: But basically the disclaimer here is basically like, this is

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Speaker 1: not a podcast about the Spanish. So the simple, simple

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Speaker 1: version is between the late nineteen teens to the nineteen

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Speaker 1: thirties in Spain, there's a series of political upheavals. The

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Speaker 1: monarchy becomes unpopular and unstable, and things like communism and

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Speaker 1: socialism and right wing fascism start gaining ground. E mentionally,

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Speaker 1: everybody is piste off at everybody else, like it's just

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Speaker 1: dirty and not good. And there's some unsuccessful coups in

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Speaker 1: the early thirties, and then there is one that goes

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Speaker 1: off literally with a bang, and everybody is at each

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Speaker 1: other's throats and they the country divides into two parties.

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Speaker 1: There's the Republicans, which are called the Popular Front, and

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Speaker 1: the Nationals nationalists, who are the anti communists, and they

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Speaker 1: go at it for I think four yeah, three, about

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Speaker 1: three years is how long the Spanish Civil War lasted.

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Speaker 1: That is the basic, most basic of that's like not

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Speaker 1: even the Wikipedia intro to the actually the if you

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Speaker 1: want any any reading on it. George Orwell was took

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Speaker 1: part in the war. He was in the trenches. George

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Speaker 1: or Well, the the film director George Well the the writer. Yes, yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he wrote yeah, yeah, well yeah, but you wrote a

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Speaker 1: book about about his experiences called Homage to Catalonia, which

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Speaker 1: is a pretty good read. It doesn't and he is

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Speaker 1: it pains to say. He doesn't talk about it completely.

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Speaker 1: He talks about his corner of the war, the things

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Speaker 1: that he saw, but also tries to explain some of

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Speaker 1: the overarching groups and what they were all about and stuff.

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Speaker 1: And he doesn't claim that he explains the entire thing

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Speaker 1: in total detail. Yeah, it seems almost impossible to do that.

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Speaker 1: The Spanish Civil War is extremely complicated anywhere, and well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's one of the more complicated ones out there because

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Speaker 1: it's the first one where not only is the country

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Speaker 1: fighting itself, but this is where the bigger European powers

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Speaker 1: like the like the uss are, the Communist nation and

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Speaker 1: the Germans and the Americans, like all these different forces

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Speaker 1: are starting to push stuff in. It's it's a testing ground.

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Speaker 1: It would become World War two. There was. Yeah, there

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Speaker 1: was a lot of a lot of international interference. A

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Speaker 1: lot of people came from far and wide to participate

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Speaker 1: on both sides of the war. Again like or a well,

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Speaker 1: for example, Ernest Hemingway was another one, and there's some

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Speaker 1: of the famous figures you could name. Tons of people

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Speaker 1: fought in that war. And uh, it's also I think unique,

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Speaker 1: or at least the first war really that is totally

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Speaker 1: shrouded in clouds of BS. I mean it's a lot

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Speaker 1: of there's a lot of BS surrounding this war. That's

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Speaker 1: that really has followed us down to this to the

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Speaker 1: to the present day. Well, and I can't disagree with

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Speaker 1: you because I I really what I wanted to have.

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Speaker 1: As you guys know, I've done this before. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to give you a two and a half to three

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Speaker 1: paragraph description of this war. And as I read it,

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Speaker 1: it just became more and more convoluted. So that's a

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Speaker 1: that is a great description of the problems with explaining

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Speaker 1: this this conflict. Well, yeah, and I don't mean that

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Speaker 1: the people the war was BS. I just mean a

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Speaker 1: lot of the commentary afterwards, the interpretations that people that

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Speaker 1: put on the war and the people fighting it and

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Speaker 1: everything else are mostly BS. Yeah, and so with that,

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Speaker 1: let's let's move forward. Because I think the one the

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Speaker 1: one pertinent bit of information about the Spanish Civil War

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Speaker 1: is when it began, because that plays into the date

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Speaker 1: of the capture of the image of the falling soldier.

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Speaker 1: The war began in July ninety six. Okay, we're going

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Speaker 1: to move in. And supposedly the photo the falling Soldier

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Speaker 1: was taken in September. We don't know when in September,

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Speaker 1: but in September of nineteen thirty six. There's some things

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Speaker 1: that can kind of maybe help us figure that out.

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Speaker 1: The first of which is when the photo ran, the

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Speaker 1: original run date of it. Because if you remember, I said,

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Speaker 1: there was View magazine back in Paris, not v Iu. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's not like the View like yeah, no, that's a

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Speaker 1: different show entirely with four women on it. No, they

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Speaker 1: were not there. But now this magazine would run the

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Speaker 1: image along with several of quite a few other of

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Speaker 1: Robert Kappa's images in the September twenty three, nineteen thirty

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Speaker 1: six issue lost the word issue. So he took it

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Speaker 1: at least no later than that morning then and then

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Speaker 1: imediately downloaded it to the internet. There is there is

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Speaker 1: no internet, there's no editing. He had to hand off

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Speaker 1: undeveloped natives to a pilot who would then fly them

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Speaker 1: back to Paris, where they would go to a dark room,

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Speaker 1: get developed, and then get integrated into the magazine and

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Speaker 1: not going to be at least days. And that's the

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Speaker 1: corroborated that was the process. He didn't ever see his

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Speaker 1: own I mean, he didn't develop on site. No, he didn't.

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Speaker 1: He did have I think back in Paris he had

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Speaker 1: he did have a dark room, dark room, yeah, but

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Speaker 1: but he was he was still in Spain when he

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Speaker 1: probably taking pictures presumably, right. But so, I mean that's

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Speaker 1: kind of a frustrating little detail in this, right is that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we've all all everybody in this room at

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Speaker 1: least has shot film with a camera. Film come back well,

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Speaker 1: and and that you like kind of you stick it

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Speaker 1: in your tube and you say, like, I mean, how

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Speaker 1: much can you say about it? You can't ever go through,

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Speaker 1: especially if you don't have a dark room, right, you

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Speaker 1: don't have the chance to go through and say like

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Speaker 1: frame one, roll one, this is where I took it,

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Speaker 1: frame to roll one. Actually, actually a counter to that

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Speaker 1: is because as you two know, I'm in a photography

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Speaker 1: class right now because I shoot all the time and

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Speaker 1: one of the things that I don't do because digital

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Speaker 1: makes this so much easier. But this instructor is really

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Speaker 1: really pressing on us, and he is old school, a

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Speaker 1: very old school. Is you have a notebook. You you

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Speaker 1: write down your shot numbers and your exposure time and

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Speaker 1: your ugh stop and stuff like that. Now, as a

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Speaker 1: war photographer, you can't do that because you're just blazing away.

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Speaker 1: But you can stop and write roll to one five

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Speaker 1: to one five, this date, this event, like you can

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Speaker 1: give the track. It's not like today where you can

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Speaker 1: actually just go to the image and look in the

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Speaker 1: data in there. It is. You're sure that he there

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Speaker 1: was some taking place, but you know this image particularly

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Speaker 1: that we're talking about, and the kind of photography he

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Speaker 1: was doing, we're talking like actual battlefield like bullets flying

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Speaker 1: over your head photography. So I presume that he wasn't

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Speaker 1: also like picture snap okay, note book okay, picture snap notebook. No,

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Speaker 1: I mean you know, you have to kind of take

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Speaker 1: that back. And so that's something else that I would

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Speaker 1: just add it to the layer layer complexity, like on

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Speaker 1: a role basis the role and then make a note word.

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Speaker 1: And so that's that added complexity of us not actually

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Speaker 1: having him saying to the publisher this is what I got. Well,

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Speaker 1: and here's the other problem is there's the influence or

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Speaker 1: the input of the publisher of the photos, because at

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Speaker 1: the time that it runs into view, they say that

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Speaker 1: the photo was taken in Cordeoba, Spain, but other people

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Speaker 1: have come along after the fact and said, oh no,

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Speaker 1: that was taken in Sarah Mariano, I believe is how

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Speaker 1: you pronounced that city's name. Now, that might not sound

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Speaker 1: like a big deal because those two cities are about

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Speaker 1: eight miles or twelve kilometers apart, but if there's a war,

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Speaker 1: that could actually be pretty important. And as we'll find

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Speaker 1: later on, there's even more locations that are suggested where

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Speaker 1: this photo might have been taken. So that draws it

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Speaker 1: out to not eight miles and twelve kilometers, but thirty

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Speaker 1: miles and what is that like eighty kilometers roughly difference.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this can be huge differences and where the

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Speaker 1: battlefront is. So that also throws, you know, question of

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Speaker 1: was he taking in the serene place or was it

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Speaker 1: somewhere where all hell was breaking loose. For his part,

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Speaker 1: Robert Kappa never really talked about this photo and what

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Speaker 1: the circumstances around it. He's really kind of tight lipped

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Speaker 1: around it, which was weird. Because he was such an

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Speaker 1: outgoing and and very fun and playful man. And you subscribe,

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Speaker 1: I'll talk about all the few different reasons. Yeah I have.

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Speaker 1: I have some ideas too. But according to him, in

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Speaker 1: one of the few interviews that he did, what he

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Speaker 1: said was, actually, Joe, do you mind reading this? It

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Speaker 1: seems right up your ally, my friend with the Hungarian accident. No, no,

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Speaker 1: just do it, please don't. In fact, quote, I was

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Speaker 1: there in the trench with about twenty Melicianos. I just

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Speaker 1: kind of put my camera above my head and didn't

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Speaker 1: even look and click the picture when they moved over

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Speaker 1: the trench, and that was all That camera, which I

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Speaker 1: held above my head, just caught a man at the

402
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Speaker 1: moment when he was shot. That was probably the best

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Speaker 1: picture I ever took. I never saw the picture in

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Speaker 1: the frame. Cancer camera was far above my head. No,

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Speaker 1: that's that's amazing because what you need to realize is

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Speaker 1: that he's shooting at this time thirty five millimeter film

407
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 1: has become available, so that's great because it's highly portable.

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Speaker 1: He's using a like a camera which is more akin

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Speaker 1: to the body a style of a camera you see today.

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Speaker 1: Then the old school boxer Brownie style, so it makes it.

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Speaker 1: It's amazing to think that he held it up and

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Speaker 1: it was as in focus as it was for him.

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Speaker 1: It's an amazingly lucky shot that which is also white.

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Speaker 1: People question it, well, he probably he probably had a

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Speaker 1: stopped way down, you know what I mean, are just

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00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,400
Speaker 1: wide open again as much like but that focus ring

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Speaker 1: is the hardest bit. Yeah, well, I mean, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if there was a lot of action happening. I

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Speaker 1: don't know as much about photography as either of you do, certainly,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, we won't develop into nerd talking. It's fine,

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Speaker 1: but I would I just say that, like, you know,

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Speaker 1: if he had focused from the trench on kind of

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Speaker 1: where the front line was happening, and then had to

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Speaker 1: duck down because shooting was happening and was just reaching up,

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Speaker 1: that might account for in my understanding of photography, might

426
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 1: account for why it was so in focus. But again,

427
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:59,479
Speaker 1: it's pretty lucky. Yeah, it was perfectly in focus. Personally,

428
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:03,639
Speaker 1: there the other photos from that series that are in

429
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 1: much better focus. But we'll deal with that shortly. Uh,

430
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 1: Let's let's move to after the fact though, So so

431
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 1: Kapa takes his shot, he would then eventually leave Spain,

432
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,919
Speaker 1: because remember this war goes on for years, and he

433
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,479
Speaker 1: would go. He would bounce back and forth to Spain

434
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,679
Speaker 1: over the course of that war. Unfortunately, when he left,

435
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 1: Gerta didn't want to go. She she got another assignment

436
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 1: and she stayed, and that would end up costing her

437
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 1: her life. They if you don't know, you actually, if

438
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 1: you've never heard the story, you don't know this is

439
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 1: they were lovers. They had a intimate relationship, and when

440
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 1: she was killed it took a toll on him. She

441
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,639
Speaker 1: was in another battle area. She jumped onto a jeep

442
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 1: or some kind of vehicle that was moving away and

443
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,920
Speaker 1: a tank rolled into it. She she didn't die that moment,

444
00:25:55,119 --> 00:26:00,080
Speaker 1: she died the next day. Even worse ruled right at

445
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 1: the time. I believe that the tank hit it, she

446
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 1: was thrown to the ground, and probably the car rolled

447
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: on top of her because she's writing on the running

448
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 1: board of the vehicle. So I have a feeling that

449
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 1: she took massive internal injuries which took about a day

450
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 1: to kill her. So she is actually considered probably she's

451
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 1: considered to be probably the first female photo journalists to

452
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:26,400
Speaker 1: have ever died in a battlefield or war situation. So

453
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,959
Speaker 1: not the title that you want, but you know she

454
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 1: she earned that fairly prestigious and yeah, absolutely not one

455
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:39,880
Speaker 1: that you actively aim for. A yes, yeah, at least

456
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:41,880
Speaker 1: people are going to look back, look at you and say, wow,

457
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,959
Speaker 1: what a dumb, ignominious death. You know, she was in

458
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:50,200
Speaker 1: there trying to get it. And for his part, Robert

459
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 1: Kappa would go on, he would fill or he would

460
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 1: photograph every major conflict from then until his death in

461
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty four. He was in he got an assignment

462
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: for Life magazine to take photographs at the end of

463
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,360
Speaker 1: the First Indo China War. This is in Vietnam. It's

464
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 1: not the actual Vietnam War. The designation for being the

465
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:20,120
Speaker 1: Vietnam War takes about another year or so. But he

466
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,359
Speaker 1: went were there like, yeah, this is where the French

467
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,679
Speaker 1: were being pushed out and the Vietnam War. It was

468
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 1: in Vietnam, Yes, but it's got the designation of the

469
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 1: first and the second Indo China Wars. But the point

470
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:38,199
Speaker 1: is he's there, he's taking photos of the troops and

471
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 1: at one point he says he's going to go ahead

472
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: and shoot take photos. Back down the track they're walking,

473
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,160
Speaker 1: he steps on the landmine and that takes his life,

474
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 1: and that is the end of Robert Kappa. The man

475
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 1: is well known though. If you've ever seen photos of

476
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 1: the Omaha Beach in he's the one who took those photos.

477
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,880
Speaker 1: He dove off of a boat with all of these

478
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,440
Speaker 1: marines and soldiers in the thick of it, and he

479
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 1: took photos the whole time. I think he's shot. He

480
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 1: shot like a hundred and twenty or a hundred and

481
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 1: forty images that day. Only eleven of them survived because unfortunately,

482
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 1: when he sent his film to the UK to get developed,

483
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 1: a film tech screwed up and destroyed all but those

484
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: eleven iconic images we haveing, but probably the ones that

485
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:37,680
Speaker 1: got destroyed even more. Yes. So, so he's very well known.

486
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 1: He is he is the standard of war photography. And

487
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 1: if you've, like I said, you've probably seen his work.

488
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: He just didn't know who his who he was. Okay,

489
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 1: so back to the Falling Soldier. Five years go by,

490
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: everybody has taken the story of this photo at face value.

491
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: Nobody has really said, nah, that can't be right. Well,

492
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: I mean, you know it was the time. Yeah, no,

493
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 1: it makes total sense. But uh, then in the seventies

494
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 1: a book comes out and somebody says, I don't I

495
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 1: don't know if I think that's really real, but we

496
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,719
Speaker 1: don't have anything to corroborate it. And then an amazing

497
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 1: thing happens, which is remember we said he fled, he

498
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 1: left Paris because the Nazis were coming. When he did,

499
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 1: he left his dark room. He left all of his

500
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 1: film and his negatives there, and he had a suitcase

501
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 1: with three boxes of of developed film in those boxes. Somehow,

502
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 1: through some series of events, that suitcase made its way

503
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 1: into a diplomat's hands. That diplomat took the suitcase to Mexico,

504
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 1: where it lived for the next seventies some years, until

505
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,719
Speaker 1: such time as a bargain was struck and that film

506
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 1: was brought forward and given to the Kappa Estate and

507
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 1: Magnum Photos, and Magnum is the company that he helped

508
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 1: start with three other a well known photographers back in

509
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 1: the that would have been in the thirties that he

510
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 1: did that. But they developed all of the they created

511
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 1: prints off of all of that that cellulos, and it

512
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: was amazing that it was still viable because if you remember,

513
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: film degrades over time day, so it was amazing that

514
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 1: the stuff was in really good shape, and they got

515
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of images from his time in Spain.

516
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 1: The image of the falling soldiers not in that set,

517
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,719
Speaker 1: but what is in there is some other images that

518
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 1: he took at the same time, and it helps maybe

519
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 1: a timeline of where he was and what was going

520
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 1: on when that particular photo was shot. Thus, even more

521
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 1: questions are asked now. It was amazing is that not

522
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: only were his photos found in that suitcase, Gerda's photos,

523
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 1: some of hers were also found. And a man by

524
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: the name of David Seymour who had a really colorful

525
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 1: nickname that I've forgot but I can't remember his name.

526
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: I loved his nickname, I've forgotten it. But they all

527
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 1: these lost images of theirs from that war were found,

528
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 1: which is wonderful. But now what we're left with is

529
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 1: we have more information, we have more images, but it's

530
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: an incomplete record. And the question here is was the

531
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 1: falling Man truly taken in a conflict or was it not?

532
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 1: And it was a staged image. That's what we're going

533
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 1: to talk about now that we're in theories. But first

534
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 1: let's take a quick break. Hey, Hulu has got a

535
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 1: new original series coming out. It's called The Looming Towers,

536
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: based on the Pula Surprise winning book by Lawrence Right.

537
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 1: Uh it is about guess what all the events leading

538
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,040
Speaker 1: up to the Night eleven attacks. The series on of

539
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 1: the traces, the rising thread of Osama bin Laden and

540
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 1: al Qaeda, and now the rivalry and the bureaucratic infighting

541
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 1: between the FBI and the CIA might have prevented us

542
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 1: from actually heading off those attacks. The Living Tower stars

543
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 1: Jeff Daniels, I'm sure you heard of him, also Peter

544
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 1: stars Guard and Tahar Rahim and uh So The Living

545
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 1: Tower is available now but only on Hulu. Go watching,

546
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: click and we're back. Shim it was Shim, Yes, it

547
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 1: was Shim, Thank you, thank you. So now that we

548
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 1: know who it is, let's get into the first theory.

549
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 1: I took all half hour of our break to google that.

550
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 1: Oh okay, so here we've actually got really three basic theories.

551
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 1: The first theory is that the photograph is authentic in

552
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 1: the sense that it is as they said it was taken.

553
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 1: The Yeah, like, there is no story around the whole thing,

554
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 1: and it is somebody being killed or at the moment

555
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 1: of death from being shot with a bullet. It's not

556
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: that outlandis said. You go to a war zone and

557
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: you managed to get a picture of somebody getting shot.

558
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 1: It happens a lot. I bet it does. Sorry, people

559
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 1: getting shot in war zones happens a lot. Yes, pictures

560
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 1: of people getting shot in war zones is harder. Yeah, okay,

561
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 1: So if we go, if we if we follow this

562
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 1: sery though, Kappa's biographers and the guys at Magnum Photos,

563
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 1: which again, like I said earlier, was a company he founded,

564
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: they all say that the photo is the real deal.

565
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 1: And there's a man by the name of Richard Whalen.

566
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 1: I believe Whalen is still alive, but I swore I

567
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 1: saw something that said he actually passed away within the

568
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 1: last two or three years. But he was a biographer

569
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 1: of Kappa. And what Whaland did? This was back as

570
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 1: this was like around two thousand, before the suitcase of

571
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 1: image had been found. Now, lets see the guy that

572
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 1: wrote the articles, Yeah, yeah, absolutely, same guy. Pobs stopped

573
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 1: putting your articles on black backgrounds, but he enlisted the

574
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: help of a homicide detective. Just kidding. No, it's like it. No,

575
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 1: it wasn't Hotel. I can't remember the guy's name. Is

576
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,799
Speaker 1: it in here, We'll find it. But the point is

577
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,240
Speaker 1: this detective said, yeah, sure, I'll look at the photo.

578
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 1: That's cool. I've seen a lot of things in my

579
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 1: line of work as a homicide detective. And what he noticed,

580
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 1: and he pointed out, was in the image the soldiers

581
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 1: left hand is barely visible. Now, Remember, I said, the

582
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 1: man is twisting and fall he's falling backwards, and he's

583
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 1: twisting to his left away from the photographer, and his

584
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 1: left hand is barely visible. His legs are bent, and

585
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 1: that hand you can see it dropping below his left thigh. Well,

586
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: the fingers on that hand are curling that They're curling inwards,

587
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 1: and not in a relaxed way, not like making a

588
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 1: fist kind of correct, They're just kind of loose like

589
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:15,879
Speaker 1: you you know, when you fall asleep and you wake

590
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 1: up in your hand is just kind of loosely curled

591
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 1: when you shake your hands out. Yeah, something just like that. Okay, Well,

592
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 1: he said, Listen, most people, when they are falling backwards

593
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 1: intentionally they cannot help but reflexively put their hand out

594
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 1: to break their fall or or accidentally falling backwards. Anybody

595
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 1: who is aware of the fact that they are pulling backwards.

596
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:44,799
Speaker 1: It's an automatic reaction. But when you are shot or well,

597
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 1: actually more importantly, when you are deceased, the tension in

598
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 1: your muscles and your your whole body go out and

599
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 1: the hands automatically curl inward. And he keyed in on

600
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,720
Speaker 1: that saying, listen, I think the guy is actually dead

601
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 1: already as he's falling to the ground, and this is

602
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 1: a symptom of it, that his hand is curling in

603
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 1: on itself. Okay, that that makes total sense, But I

604
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:12,840
Speaker 1: have a total issue with it because I'm still struggling

605
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,359
Speaker 1: with the photo sequence, which we're going to talk about

606
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 1: some more soon. Another another issue is the lack of

607
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 1: a bullet hole anywhere. Well, they say that he shot

608
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 1: in the head, and remember I said that if you

609
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,720
Speaker 1: look at this photo, his left the basically the left

610
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:30,759
Speaker 1: side of his head, you can't really see it in

611
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: the image. I suppose actually, if he was really shot,

612
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: if he was sort of shot in the left side

613
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 1: of the head, that would explain why he's twisting twisting

614
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 1: in that direction. Yeah, yeah, that totally like he could

615
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,359
Speaker 1: have been shot in the heart and twisting that his

616
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 1: white shirt would not show blood yet because if he

617
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 1: is just the moment of impact and he is initially

618
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 1: twisting that that flow of blood from everything being cut

619
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 1: by the bullet is not going to show up. He

620
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 1: could have been shot left back side of his head too,

621
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 1: through his because he has black hair, right, so it

622
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,399
Speaker 1: could have been shot in his head. Sorry, I'm going

623
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 1: away from Mica and its head just like you know,

624
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 1: flung with the velocity of to the right, because I mean,

625
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 1: there's a lot of ways that this bullet could have

626
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 1: impacted him to kill him and make his body turn

627
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 1: in the method that it did. Now. The the other

628
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:23,280
Speaker 1: thing that they are pointing to Magnum and Mr Whalen

629
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 1: has also pointed out was he was looking at the

630
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 1: timing of the photograph that of the falling Soldier and

631
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 1: when it was released. There's a guy, he's a contemporary

632
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 1: Robert Kappa. His name is Hans Nameth Uh and Nameth

633
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 1: was in Spain at the same time as Kappa doing

634
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,959
Speaker 1: the same thing, doing war journalism. And by the way,

635
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 1: you also this is another one I'm name dropping again.

636
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 1: This is also a photographer you know, you know who

637
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 1: Jackson Pollock is. He's the drip artist from the fifties

638
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 1: the famous guy. There's iconic photos of Jackson Pollock at work,

639
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 1: and those photos were taken by Hans name it, so

640
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 1: you actually know his work as well, even if you

641
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:15,279
Speaker 1: didn't realize it, you probably you're right. I forget. I

642
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 1: spent so many years in school in the arts that

643
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 1: I forget sometimes that not everybody's yeah, like they're just

644
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 1: I instantly have that like, oh, yeah, I know who

645
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 1: that is, even before I pulled up the image and

646
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 1: who it was, and you know that image, Yes, we

647
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 1: knew that image of him bent over the canvas on

648
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 1: the floor. Okay. Hans Nameth was near a village this

649
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 1: is you know in the in September of thirty six,

650
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 1: early September of thirty six. He's in the village of

651
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 1: Sarah Mariano when the fighting broke out on the fifth

652
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 1: and the sixth September, and he took a bunch of

653
00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 1: photographs of the local villagers fleeing that violence, and he

654
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 1: went on record said, now, I never saw Robert Kappa

655
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:08,359
Speaker 1: or Gerda at any time while I was there, And

656
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 1: yet images of those same fleeing villagers were run along

657
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 1: with the image of the falling soldier in View magazine.

658
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 1: So it says, wait, Robert Cappa was there, and everybody

659
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,319
Speaker 1: said the image of the falling Soldier was shot was

660
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 1: taken on the fifth or the sixth, because that was

661
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:36,240
Speaker 1: when the conflict happened at that location. So that along

662
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 1: with the last thing that Richard Wayland found, which is

663
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 1: that the original prints that they dug up, you know,

664
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 1: Kappa's prints, they were all they were sequentially numbered, that's

665
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 1: the from when they were originally developed, and the numbers

666
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 1: on the back of the falling Soldier print is prior

667
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 1: to the Fleeing Villager p So they're saying, listen, he

668
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 1: was there. You can we know he was there because

669
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 1: other photographers have the same people in their images in

670
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 1: their their photographs, and this is sequential numbering, is showing

671
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 1: that this had to have all been done prior to

672
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 1: those villagers images being captured. So that's that's a timeline

673
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 1: that they've established using those those bits of information. The

674
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 1: really cynical part of me says, yeah, that film was

675
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 1: there somebody else, I mean, like you know, who knows

676
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 1: who had a camera and was willing to sell Robert

677
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:40,360
Speaker 1: Kappa some film. Actually, I don't think Kappa bought anybody.

678
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,439
Speaker 1: I don't actually think that. But there you actually bring

679
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 1: up a very interesting point. This is a theory that

680
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 1: I didn't have in here, but we'll just toss this

681
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 1: out there as a also floating theory, which is that

682
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 1: Robert Robert Kappa didn't take the photo, but you know

683
00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 1: who did because they had made a moniker I think

684
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 1: it was Kappa and taro is is the translation of it.

685
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,840
Speaker 1: They had stamps made up like that was just their brand.

686
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 1: They worked so closely together that there's questions of some

687
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 1: of those early photos of which one took them. Now,

688
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 1: he had a very distinct style, but if you are

689
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 1: taking photographs with someone all the time and you were

690
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:29,799
Speaker 1: reviewing your work together, you tend to just naturally pick

691
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 1: h if you're co developing a style. I mean, they're

692
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 1: co developing a brand, absolutely right, you know. And so

693
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,319
Speaker 1: maybe and that's one of those things too where it's

694
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:40,399
Speaker 1: kind of like she was the first woman to die

695
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 1: on a battlefield as a photojournalist, Like maybe her legacy

696
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 1: is even broader than we necessarily know. If it is

697
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 1: true that she took these pictures, but that they just

698
00:41:53,640 --> 00:42:00,080
Speaker 1: thought it would say, because again it's the era. This

699
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 1: is not me being sexist. This is the Arab being

700
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:04,840
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, it's not just the era did It's

701
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 1: not just the era being sexist, it's the era being

702
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 1: super racist because obviously he wasn't even selling photos as

703
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 1: a Jew in that time either. He had to change

704
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 1: his entire identity. Yeah, he had to change his own identity,

705
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 1: let alone her having to also change all her identities

706
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:21,719
Speaker 1: to that. But do you know if Gerda was even

707
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 1: there that day? So she yes, she was there with Kappa.

708
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 1: They traveled together. They apparently were inseparable when they were

709
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 1: in Spain. So the information that I have found, it

710
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 1: wasn't as if they said, hey, I'm gonna go here

711
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 1: and you go there and let's meet up next week

712
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 1: in this other town. No, they went everywhere together. Um,

713
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 1: I think it was Hans name. It was talking about

714
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 1: the fact like they ran out of cover at one

715
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:55,399
Speaker 1: point to watch a plane that had been shot down spiraling,

716
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 1: and he was it was him or somebody else, just

717
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 1: talking about like their general level of almost naivete about

718
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 1: like oh this and that, and we're going to do

719
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 1: this with our photos and like this just this general

720
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 1: I mean would but remember he is a very very

721
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 1: young man at this time, he is like twenty eighteen

722
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 1: or twenty something like that. He's a very young guy.

723
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 1: He was born in nineteen eighteen. This has happening. Yeah,

724
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 1: he's eighteen years old. Again, I would call that boldness

725
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:34,320
Speaker 1: not necessary, brazenness not necessarily like the immortality kind of thing. Yeah,

726
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 1: there's some of that, but there's also that sort of

727
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 1: like this again just you know, knowing kind of what

728
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 1: we know from like later interviews and things like that,

729
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:47,879
Speaker 1: of him thinking that he probably did think. It wasn't

730
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:50,359
Speaker 1: just like I could never die. It was like this

731
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:52,799
Speaker 1: is important and I should capture it, you know, And

732
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 1: so that's I mean, that's hard. But he had this

733
00:43:56,560 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 1: the is motto was amazing and fortunately it may have

734
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 1: also been would cost him his life, which is if

735
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 1: your photos aren't good enough, you're not close enough. Yeah.

736
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 1: So that's why I don't think like Naveta. I think

737
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,840
Speaker 1: just like this, like I'm you know, you know, bracing

738
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 1: this whatever we want to call it. But you know,

739
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 1: I mean sometimes people are just obsessive about certain yeah,

740
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 1: which is also fine, makes them sort of have a

741
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:21,720
Speaker 1: little bit of disregard for their safety. I was listening

742
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:26,280
Speaker 1: to uh interview with the NPR correspondent recently, and she said,

743
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:28,439
Speaker 1: you know, the really interesting thing about being a war

744
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:31,959
Speaker 1: correspondent is that I have this really bad behavior which

745
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 1: is like kind of self destructive, and that it's like

746
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 1: I go to Iran during the war and report on

747
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 1: it while there's bombs dropping around me, and then I

748
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 1: get a reward, which is an actual broadcasting award, and

749
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:48,480
Speaker 1: people are rewarding me for this. So my learned behavior

750
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 1: is me doing this really dangerous, horrible thing is what

751
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:55,879
Speaker 1: makes me really good at my job. And I think

752
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:59,439
Speaker 1: that you know, that's kind of feeds into that as well. Absolutely. Yeah.

753
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 1: And and you know the thing about war too, is

754
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:04,880
Speaker 1: that most of the bullets miss. Yeah, so your odds

755
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 1: are actually most of them are as they do. Odds

756
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:10,320
Speaker 1: are you can run out there in the battlefield, you

757
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 1: won't get shot. But I mean, I guess, I don't know.

758
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 1: I mean, I I would agree, I don't know. I guess.

759
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:19,799
Speaker 1: We were kind of talking about my stupid theory that like, well,

760
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 1: maybe he didn't actually take the pictures. I think he

761
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 1: probably did. I just was kind of throwing that out there.

762
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 1: I think that Robert Kappa took the photo and based

763
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 1: on things that we're going to talk about. Sadly, I

764
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:32,879
Speaker 1: am very conflicted now because I think that he took

765
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 1: the photo, but I think the circumstances are not what

766
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:38,719
Speaker 1: they were said to be, and we should probably talk

767
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:40,799
Speaker 1: about I think that's our second theory. I think it's

768
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 1: okay to say either he or Greta definitely took the picture.

769
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 1: Greta sorry, her original name was Greta, but she changed

770
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:53,919
Speaker 1: it to Grida anyway, Sorry. I think it's safe for us. Yeah,

771
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 1: I think it's safe for us to say somebody that

772
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 1: owned that brand took the picture. Okay, we'll go with that.

773
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 1: So let's go the theory number two, which is indeed

774
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:04,319
Speaker 1: that the photo is a fake, and by fake, I

775
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:08,760
Speaker 1: mean it is not what it is portrayed. It was staged.

776
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 1: So the process of faking photos, as Joe said, you know,

777
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:19,279
Speaker 1: I mean the process of taking photos of war, that

778
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 1: happened as soon as people figured out how to take photographs,

779
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 1: and right after that they figured out how to fake

780
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 1: photos to get what the the to tell the story

781
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 1: that they wanted to tell. They would manipulate the image

782
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:36,320
Speaker 1: in such a way so that it told their story

783
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:40,360
Speaker 1: and and it didn't matter what else how well it happens,

784
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 1: you know. I mean it's like, for example, but imagine

785
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,280
Speaker 1: you're out in the battlefield and you see something really

786
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 1: some really cool thing you've never seen before, like somebody

787
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 1: getting shot and falling down to the ground. You think

788
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 1: that's not cool obviously, but that would make a great shot.

789
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 1: Unfortunately you didn't capture that shot. And so and it's

790
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:00,320
Speaker 1: a huge timing thing. If you want to catch somebody

791
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 1: right in the act of getting shot, that's a big thing.

792
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 1: And so I could see where at a certain point

793
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 1: you would kind of give up on trying to actually

794
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:11,799
Speaker 1: capture that moment and just asking some soldiers slipping a

795
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 1: few pace thos and say, dude, would you fall to

796
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 1: the ground just like and and and and in a

797
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:20,879
Speaker 1: work correspondents mine, it's actually if he does it in

798
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:23,719
Speaker 1: such a way that it looks just like all these

799
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 1: other guys that you've seen getting shot getting shot, it's like, hey,

800
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:29,439
Speaker 1: you know, I recreated the moment, you know, I wasn't

801
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 1: able to capture it. And the act of staging photos

802
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 1: was what a lot of photographers were forced to do

803
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 1: during the Spanish Civil Wars, specifically because of the fact

804
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 1: that the photographers were not allowed onto the front line,

805
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 1: which makes sense, Yes they're not allowed, or else it's

806
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 1: a timing thing. Like I said, So here's here's the crux,

807
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 1: or here's the basis of the information. That really is

808
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 1: throwing this theory forward at this point for a lot

809
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:04,799
Speaker 1: of people is that while Robert Kappa was in Sarah Mariano,

810
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:09,480
Speaker 1: he did take photos of refugees. Those refugees we talked

811
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 1: about that Hans had gotten photos of, but at that

812
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 1: point he had not yet taken the photo of the

813
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:20,399
Speaker 1: falling soldier. So basically the photos were out of order.

814
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 1: When the print house developed them, they put them in

815
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:29,360
Speaker 1: the incorrect order, and instead he took that image a

816
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:32,759
Speaker 1: day or more later at it several days later at

817
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:38,799
Speaker 1: an entirely different location in a village called Espejo, which

818
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 1: is about thirty miles or fifty kilometers south of where

819
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:48,279
Speaker 1: he supposedly was. And at that point when they got

820
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:52,359
Speaker 1: to that town, there was literally nothing happening because they

821
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 1: had been you know, they on the fifth and the sixth,

822
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 1: they were there, there's all this action. They say, we're

823
00:48:57,440 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 1: going to go somewhere else, and they get to that

824
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 1: somewhere else, which is a spago according to this theory,

825
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:06,799
Speaker 1: and nothing's going on. And at this point they say,

826
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 1: well listen, we're bored. Um. They talked the local soldiers

827
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:15,359
Speaker 1: into running some maneuvers for them, because hey, you'll get

828
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:17,520
Speaker 1: your photo taken. And this is this is the days

829
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 1: we're getting your photo taken. It's still a novel thing.

830
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:23,359
Speaker 1: So they run these exercises and if you look at

831
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:29,799
Speaker 1: the photos, there's images of the photographer, whoever the photographer is,

832
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:33,880
Speaker 1: whether it's Kappa or Taro, are in the trench and

833
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 1: the soldiers are jumping over the trench and then they're

834
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 1: bending over this this mound of dirt quote unquote firing

835
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 1: at the enemy. They're running, they're doing all of these

836
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:52,400
Speaker 1: maneuvers and the action role playing, and they may have

837
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 1: been doing that for the benefit of the camera. And

838
00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 1: at one point they said, hey, you know what, like

839
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:04,839
Speaker 1: Joe said, do you mind just running and getting quote

840
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 1: unquote getting shot? Yeah, it's what soldiers like there and

841
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 1: another soldiers going in Spanish, yes, yes, pew in Spanish. Whatever.

842
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 1: That Okay, Well, but here's the thing is that if

843
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:21,359
Speaker 1: we look at the images that are taken at the

844
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:26,040
Speaker 1: same time as the falling soldier. There's some damning images

845
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 1: because there's an image of a man laying on his

846
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 1: back with his rifle across his chest. He appears to

847
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:35,600
Speaker 1: be deceased, but his arms are kind of folded over

848
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 1: his chest, and that I'm laying here dead or something.

849
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:46,360
Speaker 1: There's also another man who is falling and appears to

850
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:49,359
Speaker 1: as if he is falling, almost as if he has

851
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 1: been shot. And here's the hardest part about that. There's

852
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:58,280
Speaker 1: not a whole lot of other information in the photo

853
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 1: of the ground appears to be rather recently cut wheat.

854
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 1: But what you can see is the background. Off in

855
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:10,959
Speaker 1: the distance. You can see some mountains. You can see

856
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:14,360
Speaker 1: what looks like some tilled fields, and maybe a farmhouse.

857
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:18,320
Speaker 1: They're very very far and hard to see that maybe

858
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:21,360
Speaker 1: possibly could be a lake that's actually a field, that's

859
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 1: actually a field. That's what the unfortunate thing, right that

860
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:26,239
Speaker 1: you're about to say is that, like the background of

861
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:31,440
Speaker 1: both of these images is almost identical. I lay them up.

862
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:33,440
Speaker 1: You to have seen this image that I put on,

863
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 1: I've you know, my thing is I put stuff in

864
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 1: the photoshop and I start toggling back and forth and

865
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:40,759
Speaker 1: the gifts of it and then I give you these

866
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:43,279
Speaker 1: gifts of these images flipping back and forth, and these

867
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:47,160
Speaker 1: images laid on top of each other are almost a

868
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:51,600
Speaker 1: perfect match, as if the images were taken almost all

869
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,480
Speaker 1: the exact same spot. It's almost, yeah, it's almost like

870
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 1: somebody put a camera somewhere and was like, okay, actor

871
00:51:57,080 --> 00:52:01,319
Speaker 1: one go, actor to go, act three go. Somebody did

872
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:04,040
Speaker 1: put it. It appears to me that the camera was

873
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 1: not not on the same spot. It was on a tripod.

874
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:09,600
Speaker 1: It absolutely did not move. Yeah. Yeah. If you look

875
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 1: at the you look at the borders and stuff, and

876
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:13,960
Speaker 1: then the features in the background, in the foreground and everything,

877
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:16,360
Speaker 1: it appears to me that it was on a tripod. Yeah. No,

878
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 1: but that's what I mean, like literally, like said, you know,

879
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:23,240
Speaker 1: a tripod because the falling soldier everything is in motion

880
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:25,759
Speaker 1: and it's hard to do on a tripod, whereas the

881
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:30,680
Speaker 1: second soldier is perfectly Chris. But either way, it was

882
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:36,880
Speaker 1: somebody standing there with a camera stationary going okay, all right,

883
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:39,359
Speaker 1: we got a line of soldiers. Now everybody's gonna fake

884
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:44,360
Speaker 1: being shot, all right, three? Yeah, who can do the

885
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:48,279
Speaker 1: best fake? Who can do it? And the cynical But

886
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:51,880
Speaker 1: the second soldier, the second soldier who appears to be

887
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:57,200
Speaker 1: falling down. He's very identifiable when you compare him to

888
00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:00,480
Speaker 1: the falling soldier because where as a falling soldiers in

889
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:03,279
Speaker 1: a white shirt and light colored pants, this man is

890
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:06,320
Speaker 1: in what they call a boiler suit, basically a jump suit.

891
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:10,320
Speaker 1: And where is the falling soldier has his AMMO bags

892
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:14,239
Speaker 1: on his hip and the suspenders are going over his shoulders.

893
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:17,360
Speaker 1: This second guy in the boiler suit, his suspenders almost

894
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:21,440
Speaker 1: run up the center of his torso before wiring off

895
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 1: over each shoulder. So very different. They looked different for

896
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:28,040
Speaker 1: holding their guns. Like, the thing that's really interesting about

897
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 1: these photos is when when you were like, oh, I

898
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 1: posted a gift before I had done any kind of

899
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 1: reading or research on this, I was like, oh, there's

900
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:40,879
Speaker 1: the reel and the fake where I I thought the

901
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:44,840
Speaker 1: second one with the more identifiable one, I mean because

902
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 1: his his fatigues look real worn in, looks like he's

903
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 1: done some stuff. His body is just like crumpled, you know.

904
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, the second soldier arm, the not

905
00:53:57,239 --> 00:53:59,759
Speaker 1: famous one. Yeah, I was like, wow, that looks like

906
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:03,319
Speaker 1: human who just got shot and it's dead. And then

907
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:05,760
Speaker 1: the other one I was like, wow, that's a really

908
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:12,279
Speaker 1: clean outfit to bee. But I mean that was the

909
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:14,880
Speaker 1: interesting thing to me about this whole thing was that

910
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:18,880
Speaker 1: you posted these pictures and my immediate thought, here's the

911
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:21,200
Speaker 1: fake of yeah, and at least as you know, like

912
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 1: somebody who knows historical fashion and things like that, was like, oh,

913
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:28,279
Speaker 1: there's the costume and there's the original. So here's the

914
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:31,240
Speaker 1: deal is that there's a there's a guy. His name

915
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:35,440
Speaker 1: is Jose Manuel so sparag We. I believe it's how

916
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:39,160
Speaker 1: you say. He's a university professor in Spain. And what

917
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:42,959
Speaker 1: he did is he took these two photos. He didn't

918
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:45,879
Speaker 1: take actually the falling man photo. He took the man

919
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 1: laying prone and quote unquote shot and dead and the

920
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:53,719
Speaker 1: boiler suit man photo. And he sent those around two

921
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:57,839
Speaker 1: people in the area in Spain to try and identify

922
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:02,160
Speaker 1: the background. And that's how have this idea that it

923
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:06,480
Speaker 1: is probably in Espejo Is where the photo was taken.

924
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 1: And the real big problem because these people are like,

925
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 1: oh yeah, no, I recognized this, and then they got

926
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:14,319
Speaker 1: ahold of locals who were you know, at this point,

927
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 1: old men and women at that time, and said, oh, yeah,

928
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 1: the fighting here there was early in September and it

929
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:26,239
Speaker 1: wasn't more fighting until the September. Will remember view ran

930
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:29,080
Speaker 1: the image on the twenty three September, so it can't

931
00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:33,239
Speaker 1: be fighting in espeyho. That really makes a lot of

932
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:36,840
Speaker 1: problems then, because if it is that he took that

933
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:39,799
Speaker 1: in his spah, then it appears that there was no conflict,

934
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:42,480
Speaker 1: which appears that then it does lead a lot of

935
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:46,080
Speaker 1: credence to the idea that oh no, it was it

936
00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:51,280
Speaker 1: was totally stage for the camera, or maybe maybe somebody

937
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:54,920
Speaker 1: just shot the guy wasn't even more related. Yeah, and

938
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:56,919
Speaker 1: that's that's actually we're going to get that into our

939
00:55:56,920 --> 00:55:59,520
Speaker 1: next theory. And actually another theory that I like right

940
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:02,080
Speaker 1: now is that it didn't mean the stage somebody getting shot.

941
00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 1: He was actually going to take a portrait of the soldier.

942
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:11,600
Speaker 1: And he says back up a little bit, that's beautiful.

943
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:17,359
Speaker 1: Monty pythought, Oh yeah, no, um, And and listen, this

944
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:20,120
Speaker 1: is we've we've said this a couple of times, but

945
00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:23,280
Speaker 1: it is this is not the first instance. If indeed

946
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:27,880
Speaker 1: this theory is true of somebody manipulating a photo. You

947
00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:30,879
Speaker 1: guys probably have seen this photo YouTube in the room,

948
00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:34,880
Speaker 1: but everybody else out there may have as well. There

949
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:39,000
Speaker 1: is a photo titled the Valley of the Shadow of

950
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 1: Death by Roger Fenton. And what's that it's from? And

951
00:56:48,239 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 1: it's this it's during um oh god, it's the Crimean War.

952
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:57,359
Speaker 1: And there's there's this road and there is cannonballs all

953
00:56:57,440 --> 00:56:59,400
Speaker 1: up and down the sides of the road and all

954
00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:01,359
Speaker 1: over the road owed itself, and it is just like,

955
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:04,680
Speaker 1: what the hell kind of crazy conflict took place here?

956
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:08,280
Speaker 1: And that is the photo that became very iconic until

957
00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:11,480
Speaker 1: later on a sister photograph showed up which was the

958
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:15,640
Speaker 1: same scene from the same location, same angle, everything, except

959
00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:20,480
Speaker 1: there was no cannonballs on the rolls in there. No

960
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:22,720
Speaker 1: they It turns out they took a lot of work

961
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:25,440
Speaker 1: for like a hundred years or hundred fifty years for

962
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:27,840
Speaker 1: people to figure this out. Photoshop is how they figured

963
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:32,480
Speaker 1: it out. The photographer did the second photo that no

964
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:36,240
Speaker 1: cannonballs on road photo, and then he and his assistants

965
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:38,560
Speaker 1: went out, wrapped cannonballs off of the side of the

966
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:41,040
Speaker 1: road and chucked them onto the road because the military

967
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:43,960
Speaker 1: is they're moving through had kicked all of the cannonballs

968
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:45,440
Speaker 1: out of the way because you can't do your you

969
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:47,960
Speaker 1: can't have your horses in your arts coming through with

970
00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:50,520
Speaker 1: these balls away, so they pushed them into the ditches.

971
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:53,800
Speaker 1: They put them all back on the road or a

972
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:57,080
Speaker 1: bunch of them to then take this second photo that

973
00:57:57,240 --> 00:58:01,960
Speaker 1: was obviously much more powerful because everybody, oh my gosh,

974
00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:05,120
Speaker 1: look at that right. Well, and actually that's totally out then,

975
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:08,240
Speaker 1: because the first balls were on the road because somebody

976
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:09,760
Speaker 1: put them there, and then the second ones were the

977
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:14,160
Speaker 1: Sunday put them there. You go. Uh. There's another actually

978
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:18,160
Speaker 1: really iconic photograph we've all seen, and it's been questioned

979
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:20,560
Speaker 1: for about fifty plus years now about whether it was

980
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:23,160
Speaker 1: stage or not, and that is the the famous photo

981
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:26,280
Speaker 1: of these this half a dozen Marines raising the flag

982
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:30,040
Speaker 1: on the El g in the Pacific World War two,

983
00:58:30,560 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 1: and that was and and that one's pretty pretty certifiably

984
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:37,840
Speaker 1: absolutely not staged, but there were questions about it still

985
00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:43,680
Speaker 1: for like understandingly, yeah, yeah, there's the there's the there's

986
00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:47,080
Speaker 1: a famous photo of the here in Oregon, the Columbia

987
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:49,920
Speaker 1: River Gorge. This was back in the mid eighteen hundreds

988
00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:51,960
Speaker 1: and there was a photographer god I can't remember his

989
00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:55,680
Speaker 1: name now, but he was using these crazy monstrous plate

990
00:58:56,120 --> 00:59:01,560
Speaker 1: cameras like twenty two by thirty inch play humongous things.

991
00:59:02,680 --> 00:59:04,920
Speaker 1: I can't remember the guys. Yeah, I had it written

992
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:06,480
Speaker 1: down and then I moved it and I lost it.

993
00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:09,440
Speaker 1: But anyway, he took this great image of the Columbia

994
00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:12,000
Speaker 1: River gorge. But he took the first image and there

995
00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:15,360
Speaker 1: was a tree in the middle of his photograph that

996
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:18,560
Speaker 1: he didn't like, so he went out, He left his

997
00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:20,520
Speaker 1: camera where it was, he went up, he cut the

998
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:24,280
Speaker 1: tree down, and then he took the picture again. The

999
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:27,680
Speaker 1: second is what we all know, like, this is something

1000
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:31,480
Speaker 1: that happened from day oh yeah, and I was just

1001
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:34,960
Speaker 1: going to say that, like I guess from like a

1002
00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:39,680
Speaker 1: again historical fashion kind of climming standpoint. One of the

1003
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:42,160
Speaker 1: first things I did when I saw this picture was like,

1004
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:45,360
Speaker 1: all right, what did a Spanish Civil War uniform look like?

1005
00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:50,760
Speaker 1: If well, these guys were militia. They weren't actually enlisted soldiers,

1006
00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:53,000
Speaker 1: they were militia. So you if you see the photo,

1007
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:56,320
Speaker 1: there's some of them that looked to be in uniform,

1008
00:59:56,400 --> 01:00:00,280
Speaker 1: and then there's a bunch of them that close they

1009
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:06,200
Speaker 1: really weren't exactly to neat sides, Like certainly no, no,

1010
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:09,120
Speaker 1: that's certainly true, But you know, like, what were the clothes,

1011
01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:12,680
Speaker 1: what were the general uniforms of people at that time,

1012
01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:16,720
Speaker 1: And that that's the other thing that's really hard to tell,

1013
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:20,000
Speaker 1: is like I can't even tell what this image is

1014
01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:23,280
Speaker 1: supposed to be even representing. You know, the closest thing

1015
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:26,120
Speaker 1: I can get is to a dude who's wearing this

1016
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:29,800
Speaker 1: outfit but also with a cape and a fez. I mean,

1017
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:32,320
Speaker 1: it's like seriously, like you're laughing, but there's like that's

1018
01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:35,240
Speaker 1: the closest uniform that I can get to with it,

1019
01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:38,000
Speaker 1: and you know, and then all the other pictures are

1020
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:41,240
Speaker 1: are of these fatigues that I would expect to see

1021
01:00:41,480 --> 01:00:45,920
Speaker 1: on a battlefield, especially in the trenches. And so that's like,

1022
01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:47,880
Speaker 1: I guess that's another thing that I tend to look at.

1023
01:00:47,920 --> 01:00:51,280
Speaker 1: I mean, whether that has married or not. Um, that's

1024
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:53,520
Speaker 1: something that I tend to look at when we're kind

1025
01:00:53,520 --> 01:00:56,520
Speaker 1: of analyzing these historic things as well. Is you know,

1026
01:00:56,800 --> 01:00:59,160
Speaker 1: is somebody who's going to be really in the trenches.

1027
01:00:59,840 --> 01:01:04,520
Speaker 1: Is somebody who's honestly in the trenches getting shot in

1028
01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:08,680
Speaker 1: a war on the front lines going to have a

1029
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:15,360
Speaker 1: totally untainted uniform on in all light colors. And that's

1030
01:01:15,360 --> 01:01:17,360
Speaker 1: one of those things that I guess and it's amazing

1031
01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:20,440
Speaker 1: they're all clean if he knows every but I mean,

1032
01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:23,320
Speaker 1: at least the like the other the like the following

1033
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:25,960
Speaker 1: photo where we're safe from the same angle but it's

1034
01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:29,360
Speaker 1: in better view. But what his fatigues are darker there.

1035
01:01:29,400 --> 01:01:31,680
Speaker 1: They look like, you know, the pants are rolled up,

1036
01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:34,400
Speaker 1: the sleeves are rolled up. It looks worn. It looks

1037
01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:36,920
Speaker 1: real versus the other one, which is why I was

1038
01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:39,360
Speaker 1: immediately like, oh cool, there's like the real one and

1039
01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:42,160
Speaker 1: the stage one. But I mean, it looks like a

1040
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:45,120
Speaker 1: muddy place that they're in, and the fact that his

1041
01:01:45,240 --> 01:01:48,440
Speaker 1: clothes are totally white. Crazy. I mean, that's crazy. I'm

1042
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:51,280
Speaker 1: not saying that it proves anything or doesn't prove anything,

1043
01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:54,200
Speaker 1: but it would be dusty. But it wouldn't be muddy,

1044
01:01:54,240 --> 01:01:56,320
Speaker 1: but it would be getting on their clone. It would

1045
01:01:56,360 --> 01:01:59,200
Speaker 1: be dirty. It wouldn't be this pristine quite because it

1046
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:02,200
Speaker 1: looks like in he looks like he had his wash

1047
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:05,680
Speaker 1: his shirt and then he ran up the hill right again. Though,

1048
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:08,280
Speaker 1: like this isn't a definitive thing one way or the other,

1049
01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:11,120
Speaker 1: but that's something that always plays in my mind of

1050
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:15,439
Speaker 1: looking at the close it could be like it makes

1051
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:17,800
Speaker 1: it even more tragic. Is that he it was just

1052
01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:23,120
Speaker 1: his first day. He just oh, I am here, bang,

1053
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:27,320
Speaker 1: and then he didn't have that time to go down. Well,

1054
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:29,800
Speaker 1: he's in a lot of photo He's in at least

1055
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:34,520
Speaker 1: four different images that I saw of Robert kappas from

1056
01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:38,400
Speaker 1: that day in that same series, So I think it's four.

1057
01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:43,320
Speaker 1: There's four of seven or eight of that a series

1058
01:02:43,520 --> 01:02:47,680
Speaker 1: are available, and he isn't at least two. I take

1059
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:49,680
Speaker 1: that back. He's actually in two or three. He's not

1060
01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:51,800
Speaker 1: in every single one, but he's there in quite a

1061
01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:54,720
Speaker 1: few of them. But let's let's move. Let's move into

1062
01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:57,920
Speaker 1: the last theory that we have. This is a bit

1063
01:02:57,960 --> 01:03:00,840
Speaker 1: of an amalgamation of the the lat the theory that

1064
01:03:00,880 --> 01:03:04,160
Speaker 1: we've just been talking about, which is indeed the whole

1065
01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:07,840
Speaker 1: thing's started out as a fake and then it all

1066
01:03:07,880 --> 01:03:11,880
Speaker 1: got real. And by that, how this theory goes is

1067
01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:16,960
Speaker 1: that yes, Kappa and Gerda are they're they're getting the

1068
01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:20,040
Speaker 1: soldiers to run this maneuver form and show this stuff.

1069
01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:23,919
Speaker 1: What they don't realize is there is actually a small

1070
01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:29,920
Speaker 1: encampment of enemy soldiers nearby who as they watched them

1071
01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:32,840
Speaker 1: doing their maneuvers and running around and jumping over the

1072
01:03:32,840 --> 01:03:36,400
Speaker 1: trenches and firing into the distance, and YadA, YadA, YadA, think,

1073
01:03:36,720 --> 01:03:39,320
Speaker 1: what the hell, I why are they trying? I can't

1074
01:03:39,320 --> 01:03:41,760
Speaker 1: believe they know we're here and they're attacking us, and

1075
01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:45,920
Speaker 1: so they they fight back, and it's during one of

1076
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:51,560
Speaker 1: these feigned runs that Kappa is shooting photographs of that

1077
01:03:51,720 --> 01:03:55,720
Speaker 1: the man in the falling Soldier image, who, by the way,

1078
01:03:55,760 --> 01:03:59,160
Speaker 1: we don't know who that man is to this day,

1079
01:03:59,200 --> 01:04:04,640
Speaker 1: but he is indeed hit by a bullet from an

1080
01:04:04,800 --> 01:04:09,200
Speaker 1: enemy that was, as yet until that point unknown to

1081
01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:12,240
Speaker 1: be in the area. Yeah. I kind of like that theory.

1082
01:04:12,680 --> 01:04:14,560
Speaker 1: That doesn't necessarily have to be like, oh, we were

1083
01:04:14,600 --> 01:04:17,320
Speaker 1: defending ourselves. It could be as simple as they had

1084
01:04:17,400 --> 01:04:21,840
Speaker 1: this kind of covert camp and you yeah, and they

1085
01:04:21,840 --> 01:04:24,160
Speaker 1: don't know, and then the guys are like, oh yeah,

1086
01:04:24,160 --> 01:04:26,440
Speaker 1: we're gonna run all these training exercises and they're like, wow,

1087
01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:30,000
Speaker 1: this is sniper fodder. The hard part is that there

1088
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:31,720
Speaker 1: there is. So there's a couple of problems with that.

1089
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:35,200
Speaker 1: One is that Kappa interview. He talks about machine gun fire.

1090
01:04:35,760 --> 01:04:38,080
Speaker 1: But for a man to be hit like that with

1091
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:40,440
Speaker 1: a machine gun, you gotta be relatively close, So it

1092
01:04:40,440 --> 01:04:44,560
Speaker 1: can't be any kind of snipersh situation. Who's that guy?

1093
01:04:44,880 --> 01:04:47,240
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, I can't remember. I think it might have

1094
01:04:47,240 --> 01:04:50,160
Speaker 1: been like CNN or Fox or something. He was like

1095
01:04:50,200 --> 01:04:54,840
Speaker 1: a news reporter. He was like a big in a foxhole. No,

1096
01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:57,000
Speaker 1: he wasn't in a foxhole. He was like, oh, our

1097
01:04:57,040 --> 01:05:03,080
Speaker 1: helicopter was shocked William Yeah, yeah, yeah, and he was like, oh,

1098
01:05:03,160 --> 01:05:05,400
Speaker 1: we were shut down. I mean, this is this would

1099
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:08,640
Speaker 1: not be the first time. This would not be the

1100
01:05:08,680 --> 01:05:13,520
Speaker 1: first time that somebody who was a journalist inflated the

1101
01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:17,560
Speaker 1: story behind an image, right, So, I mean, even if

1102
01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:19,880
Speaker 1: he was like it was drills and then this guy

1103
01:05:19,920 --> 01:05:22,720
Speaker 1: got shot down, he could have gone the extra step

1104
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:25,520
Speaker 1: of saying, oh, and there was machine gun fire. It

1105
01:05:25,600 --> 01:05:28,560
Speaker 1: was awful. It was really dangerous. The thing I find weird, though,

1106
01:05:28,640 --> 01:05:34,160
Speaker 1: is that Kappa didn't seem to be particularly tight lipped

1107
01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:36,880
Speaker 1: about his stuff. He seemed to be a rather open

1108
01:05:37,120 --> 01:05:41,400
Speaker 1: talkative guy in general most of his stuff, and yet

1109
01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:45,560
Speaker 1: this particular one he didn't talk a lot about, which

1110
01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:47,360
Speaker 1: is that's the trick with lying. You know that, well,

1111
01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:49,960
Speaker 1: but that's what that's what makes people think that, well,

1112
01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:53,640
Speaker 1: maybe that's why it's a fake, is that he didn't

1113
01:05:53,640 --> 01:05:55,480
Speaker 1: want to talk about it because it was fake or

1114
01:05:55,600 --> 01:05:58,600
Speaker 1: I've always wondered, well, what about as you know, Joe

1115
01:05:58,720 --> 01:06:01,320
Speaker 1: made the joke earlier, was you know, somebody says pe

1116
01:06:01,520 --> 01:06:04,080
Speaker 1: pew as you run and you fall and you you die,

1117
01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:06,720
Speaker 1: and the first guy they go pup and the first

1118
01:06:06,800 --> 01:06:09,760
Speaker 1: the first guy in the boiler suit falls down and

1119
01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:12,600
Speaker 1: the second guy goes running and instead of going pup,

1120
01:06:13,160 --> 01:06:18,040
Speaker 1: somebody actually that does actually pull the triggers and kill

1121
01:06:18,160 --> 01:06:21,880
Speaker 1: the guy. And then you're like, I've just witnessed a

1122
01:06:22,000 --> 01:06:24,960
Speaker 1: true god murderer because it was an accident, but it

1123
01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:27,760
Speaker 1: was that was murderer, not necessarily murder. Could have been

1124
01:06:27,760 --> 01:06:32,560
Speaker 1: a gun accident as is. Yeah, it's it's friendly fire,

1125
01:06:32,640 --> 01:06:34,440
Speaker 1: which you don't want to tell the world that you

1126
01:06:34,600 --> 01:06:38,760
Speaker 1: got a famous photograph courtesy of friendly fire and nobody

1127
01:06:38,760 --> 01:06:41,400
Speaker 1: would talk about it. There's here's Here's let me finish

1128
01:06:41,440 --> 01:06:44,640
Speaker 1: is that here's the one really important thing in that

1129
01:06:44,800 --> 01:06:48,080
Speaker 1: area where all of this is supposed to have taken place.

1130
01:06:48,120 --> 01:06:53,040
Speaker 1: You know, it was never reported until the September casualties.

1131
01:06:53,720 --> 01:06:57,440
Speaker 1: Nobody was reported as having been killed in that entire time.

1132
01:06:58,000 --> 01:07:00,720
Speaker 1: So if it was friendly fire casualty, that's why you

1133
01:07:00,760 --> 01:07:04,360
Speaker 1: would cover that up. And that's all I was going

1134
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:06,240
Speaker 1: to say was that, like, I I feel like this

1135
01:07:06,320 --> 01:07:08,320
Speaker 1: is kind of that like double blind thing, even though

1136
01:07:08,400 --> 01:07:11,960
Speaker 1: or like sometimes I was an expert liar as a child.

1137
01:07:12,080 --> 01:07:14,840
Speaker 1: I'll tell you so, like, well, we've been working with

1138
01:07:14,880 --> 01:07:17,040
Speaker 1: you for about five years now, we have figured out

1139
01:07:17,080 --> 01:07:19,680
Speaker 1: that you're an expert liar. So the thing you do

1140
01:07:19,920 --> 01:07:22,120
Speaker 1: is you convince yourself of a lie. Right, you come

1141
01:07:22,200 --> 01:07:24,640
Speaker 1: up with like, here's my backstory, and then you come

1142
01:07:24,720 --> 01:07:26,960
Speaker 1: up with your like okay, and then if this were

1143
01:07:27,040 --> 01:07:30,680
Speaker 1: my backstory, how would I react? And if if I

1144
01:07:30,720 --> 01:07:35,840
Speaker 1: were reacting that way, how would I pretend to be reacting? Right?

1145
01:07:36,120 --> 01:07:40,560
Speaker 1: Do you following me? And she was really scripting this out,

1146
01:07:40,600 --> 01:07:43,200
Speaker 1: but I guess, but no, I'm saying that, like okay,

1147
01:07:43,200 --> 01:07:45,480
Speaker 1: so that's how a good works. Well, that's I mean,

1148
01:07:45,560 --> 01:07:49,240
Speaker 1: And that may be like how Robert Kappa was working.

1149
01:07:49,360 --> 01:07:51,320
Speaker 1: Is that, like you know, he was like, all right,

1150
01:07:51,400 --> 01:07:54,240
Speaker 1: I staged all this stuff. This is great. Um, if

1151
01:07:54,320 --> 01:07:58,760
Speaker 1: I want to keep this story going, of this fake story,

1152
01:07:58,880 --> 01:08:00,680
Speaker 1: I have to act like it was real that this

1153
01:08:00,680 --> 01:08:02,919
Speaker 1: person got shot in front of me. And what does

1154
01:08:02,920 --> 01:08:05,600
Speaker 1: a person who saw somebody get shot in front of

1155
01:08:05,600 --> 01:08:10,800
Speaker 1: them acts like but I'm an outgoing person, so I

1156
01:08:10,800 --> 01:08:13,560
Speaker 1: should be normally talking about it. So what is the

1157
01:08:13,600 --> 01:08:17,120
Speaker 1: way that me, a normally talking about a person reacts

1158
01:08:17,160 --> 01:08:21,000
Speaker 1: to Oh yeah, right, So it's like that five deep

1159
01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:25,760
Speaker 1: lie of I don't get I get it. It's not good.

1160
01:08:25,800 --> 01:08:28,720
Speaker 1: I understand where you're going. It's not the best, it's

1161
01:08:28,720 --> 01:08:32,320
Speaker 1: not the worst. And that's the problem with this story, right,

1162
01:08:32,400 --> 01:08:34,680
Speaker 1: And that's yeah, that's the hard part. He said. He

1163
01:08:34,840 --> 01:08:37,080
Speaker 1: does so much stuff in his life, he is so

1164
01:08:37,120 --> 01:08:39,479
Speaker 1: willing to do. He seems to be so willing to

1165
01:08:39,520 --> 01:08:42,639
Speaker 1: talk about most things. This is the thing that really

1166
01:08:42,680 --> 01:08:45,080
Speaker 1: kind of put him on the map. And you would

1167
01:08:45,120 --> 01:08:47,640
Speaker 1: really hate to tell the world by the way, I

1168
01:08:47,720 --> 01:08:49,960
Speaker 1: know you love me now, but that first thing I did,

1169
01:08:50,040 --> 01:08:53,200
Speaker 1: that's totally a fake because that is that is not

1170
01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:55,920
Speaker 1: how Oprah got her start, and that would destroy the

1171
01:08:55,960 --> 01:08:58,040
Speaker 1: open Empire. She's like, oh, and by the way, that

1172
01:08:58,080 --> 01:09:00,559
Speaker 1: first season was totally fake. But on the other hand,

1173
01:09:01,720 --> 01:09:04,879
Speaker 1: you mean you can also say, like, but also at eighteen,

1174
01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:07,160
Speaker 1: I took a picture of a person being killed in

1175
01:09:07,200 --> 01:09:10,080
Speaker 1: front of me. I watched somebody die. It could be that,

1176
01:09:10,280 --> 01:09:12,280
Speaker 1: or it could be he was embarrassed because he didn't

1177
01:09:12,280 --> 01:09:16,240
Speaker 1: actually he didn't actually take the picture in a conscious way.

1178
01:09:16,240 --> 01:09:19,280
Speaker 1: He just stuck his camera, he sat up above the

1179
01:09:18,479 --> 01:09:21,320
Speaker 1: time and took a picture. He might have felt a

1180
01:09:21,360 --> 01:09:24,479
Speaker 1: little embarrassed about the fact that this is Sillier random

1181
01:09:24,520 --> 01:09:28,479
Speaker 1: things supposedly like his greatest picture ever, and it's also

1182
01:09:28,600 --> 01:09:32,559
Speaker 1: his most random, dumb luck picture ever. Do I mean,

1183
01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:34,400
Speaker 1: I don't give him any credit for it. If he

1184
01:09:34,400 --> 01:09:36,600
Speaker 1: actually did take that picture, it's a real picture. But

1185
01:09:36,800 --> 01:09:39,400
Speaker 1: I also wonder a little bit too if like there's

1186
01:09:39,439 --> 01:09:43,160
Speaker 1: a little bit of guilt there with Like, again, you said,

1187
01:09:43,240 --> 01:09:46,880
Speaker 1: this guy has never been identified. Yeah, you know, and

1188
01:09:47,320 --> 01:09:49,320
Speaker 1: there was there was a okay, so just so you know,

1189
01:09:49,880 --> 01:09:53,200
Speaker 1: for many, many years, there was a lot of talk

1190
01:09:53,320 --> 01:09:58,639
Speaker 1: that the falling Soldier was actually a famous Spanish revolutionary.

1191
01:09:58,840 --> 01:10:02,479
Speaker 1: It was then very exclusively proven and by the way,

1192
01:10:02,720 --> 01:10:05,840
Speaker 1: Magnum and Whalen and everybody's like, oh, yeah, it's going

1193
01:10:05,920 --> 01:10:08,120
Speaker 1: to be him because of this information, but it's very

1194
01:10:08,120 --> 01:10:12,080
Speaker 1: conclusively proven that he died somewhere else. Because here's the

1195
01:10:12,080 --> 01:10:14,600
Speaker 1: other problem is that if we look at the landscape,

1196
01:10:14,600 --> 01:10:18,160
Speaker 1: it looks like it's fields, but the battle that it

1197
01:10:18,280 --> 01:10:21,280
Speaker 1: is said to have taken place in is in more

1198
01:10:21,320 --> 01:10:26,200
Speaker 1: of a mountainous wooded area, and that guy was they

1199
01:10:26,280 --> 01:10:28,439
Speaker 1: found his body against a tree in a wooded space,

1200
01:10:28,600 --> 01:10:30,920
Speaker 1: like they know, they know it's not hill. Yeah, but

1201
01:10:30,960 --> 01:10:34,599
Speaker 1: I guess I can also see the feeling of guilt

1202
01:10:35,240 --> 01:10:40,160
Speaker 1: of making your name on the death of somebody that

1203
01:10:40,320 --> 01:10:43,440
Speaker 1: you don't know. Yeah, you know, I'm the death of anybody.

1204
01:10:43,840 --> 01:10:45,800
Speaker 1: Of course, if you're a war correspondent, you know you

1205
01:10:45,880 --> 01:10:47,680
Speaker 1: probably have to be used to that by now. But

1206
01:10:47,720 --> 01:10:51,320
Speaker 1: if that was your first one at eighteen years old,

1207
01:10:51,600 --> 01:10:54,920
Speaker 1: like put yourself like at eighteen seeing somebody dying, taking

1208
01:10:54,920 --> 01:11:00,040
Speaker 1: a picture and suddenly because of that, but he's like

1209
01:11:00,240 --> 01:11:02,320
Speaker 1: the picture, it's like his camera up about the camera

1210
01:11:02,360 --> 01:11:05,800
Speaker 1: took a picture and he might not even have known

1211
01:11:06,160 --> 01:11:09,519
Speaker 1: for weeks that he even took that picture. For sure, Yeah,

1212
01:11:09,680 --> 01:11:12,320
Speaker 1: for sure. I mean I think that that this is

1213
01:11:12,360 --> 01:11:14,680
Speaker 1: why this is the story that we're covering. Right, So

1214
01:11:14,720 --> 01:11:17,080
Speaker 1: there's so many different things. We haven't done this in

1215
01:11:17,120 --> 01:11:19,120
Speaker 1: a while, but I want to do this is I

1216
01:11:19,160 --> 01:11:23,000
Speaker 1: want to do a very quick round table four or

1217
01:11:23,200 --> 01:11:27,439
Speaker 1: five sentence reason. What do you think? What is your

1218
01:11:27,760 --> 01:11:31,759
Speaker 1: your preferred answer? Certain an answer, Okay, my preferred answer

1219
01:11:32,040 --> 01:11:35,759
Speaker 1: is that it probably was staged, and I don't totally

1220
01:11:35,800 --> 01:11:38,960
Speaker 1: blame him for doing it, because again, he probably at

1221
01:11:38,920 --> 01:11:41,000
Speaker 1: a certain point, you get frustrated, Like I said, you

1222
01:11:41,080 --> 01:11:43,760
Speaker 1: keep trying to catch that special little moment you never do.

1223
01:11:44,080 --> 01:11:47,479
Speaker 1: Finally you say screw it. You post for a picture

1224
01:11:47,760 --> 01:11:50,000
Speaker 1: so that I don't blame him, Okay, I don't. Okay,

1225
01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:54,640
Speaker 1: I you know, Unfortunately I agree. I do feel like

1226
01:11:54,680 --> 01:11:57,679
Speaker 1: it's staged. I hate that you're actually counting on your fingers,

1227
01:11:57,720 --> 01:12:01,559
Speaker 1: how many sentences I'm saying that was number three? I know,

1228
01:12:02,560 --> 01:12:06,160
Speaker 1: I know, I I think I think it was staged, unfortunately,

1229
01:12:06,240 --> 01:12:10,960
Speaker 1: because it doesn't. It's not real. It's just not it's not.

1230
01:12:11,200 --> 01:12:14,439
Speaker 1: But that doesn't. That's not to diminish the experiences that

1231
01:12:14,520 --> 01:12:18,000
Speaker 1: he had or the talents that he had, but it

1232
01:12:18,160 --> 01:12:21,880
Speaker 1: is just to say that this particular photo was fake,

1233
01:12:22,240 --> 01:12:26,280
Speaker 1: like his name and his wife's name or lover yeah,

1234
01:12:26,360 --> 01:12:29,400
Speaker 1: his girlfriend. Yeah, no, I I feel like it. I

1235
01:12:29,479 --> 01:12:32,719
Speaker 1: also agree that I think that it was a stage photo.

1236
01:12:32,800 --> 01:12:36,679
Speaker 1: And it kills me to say that because as did

1237
01:12:36,720 --> 01:12:39,639
Speaker 1: you guys watch any of the documentaries on him, Did

1238
01:12:39,640 --> 01:12:41,760
Speaker 1: you get a chance to do that the outside of

1239
01:12:41,800 --> 01:12:44,280
Speaker 1: the specific topic. You know, it's one of those things

1240
01:12:44,360 --> 01:12:46,519
Speaker 1: you do when I mean we ask, oh, did you

1241
01:12:46,520 --> 01:12:51,599
Speaker 1: watch this completely? I've been watching documentaries on the man

1242
01:12:52,040 --> 01:12:56,559
Speaker 1: and his imagery, Like I saw it it first, he's talented.

1243
01:12:56,640 --> 01:13:01,639
Speaker 1: I don't. First I did amazing of things that he saw,

1244
01:13:01,840 --> 01:13:04,840
Speaker 1: likes with a lot of photographers, so I wanted to

1245
01:13:04,920 --> 01:13:08,479
Speaker 1: be real. And I see all of the body of

1246
01:13:08,600 --> 01:13:12,960
Speaker 1: he had seven hundred seventy or seven hundred thousand images

1247
01:13:13,000 --> 01:13:16,400
Speaker 1: he left behind like it is an amazing breadth of work,

1248
01:13:16,680 --> 01:13:20,440
Speaker 1: and I hate to think that it was all leveraged

1249
01:13:20,600 --> 01:13:24,639
Speaker 1: off of a falsification, but I cannot say that. I

1250
01:13:24,680 --> 01:13:27,640
Speaker 1: feel that it wasn't anymore. By the way, if you

1251
01:13:27,720 --> 01:13:30,280
Speaker 1: go out there, there's a two thousand three documentary made

1252
01:13:30,280 --> 01:13:33,920
Speaker 1: on it. Please somebody find an original copy of that

1253
01:13:33,960 --> 01:13:36,320
Speaker 1: and put it on the internet, because there is one

1254
01:13:36,400 --> 01:13:38,840
Speaker 1: on YouTube that is great. It's like an hour and

1255
01:13:38,880 --> 01:13:42,840
Speaker 1: twenty seven minutes long, but some jackass has hacked it

1256
01:13:42,920 --> 01:13:46,280
Speaker 1: up and spliced it out of order, and so it's

1257
01:13:46,320 --> 01:13:49,720
Speaker 1: like forty five minutes and then it jumps around like

1258
01:13:49,760 --> 01:13:52,960
Speaker 1: it's confusing. Realistically, that's probably the way that they've gotten

1259
01:13:53,000 --> 01:13:57,240
Speaker 1: past issue. I know, but it's still get to download

1260
01:13:57,400 --> 01:14:02,160
Speaker 1: and but is it. Well, here's what I'll say is

1261
01:14:02,200 --> 01:14:07,280
Speaker 1: that he would not be the first artist ever to

1262
01:14:07,360 --> 01:14:12,000
Speaker 1: make his name on a Baker Forture war correspondence. Absolutely,

1263
01:14:12,400 --> 01:14:15,400
Speaker 1: and there's like genuinely historic. I mean, like we talked

1264
01:14:15,400 --> 01:14:19,479
Speaker 1: about Thomas Edison, super famous dude who stole literally everything

1265
01:14:19,520 --> 01:14:23,120
Speaker 1: that he ever did, right, I mean, I don't think

1266
01:14:23,160 --> 01:14:28,639
Speaker 1: that it takes away from his talent, but but he's

1267
01:14:28,680 --> 01:14:34,000
Speaker 1: incredibly talented. But unfortunately, but it is an unfortunate start

1268
01:14:33,400 --> 01:14:36,960
Speaker 1: we now know, but I have not stopped. It could

1269
01:14:37,000 --> 01:14:39,320
Speaker 1: have been actually a very auspicious start because maybe his

1270
01:14:39,400 --> 01:14:41,559
Speaker 1: reasoning was and I could sort of see this. It's like,

1271
01:14:42,280 --> 01:14:43,680
Speaker 1: I really want to be able to go out and

1272
01:14:43,720 --> 01:14:46,320
Speaker 1: do this, take all these pictures so everybody around the

1273
01:14:46,360 --> 01:14:49,280
Speaker 1: world can see what's going on out here in the battlefield.

1274
01:14:49,720 --> 01:14:52,680
Speaker 1: But unfortunately, I really can't afford to do it. I've

1275
01:14:52,680 --> 01:14:54,120
Speaker 1: got to go out there and I've got to take

1276
01:14:54,160 --> 01:14:57,000
Speaker 1: some killer picture that will put me on a map,

1277
01:14:57,080 --> 01:14:59,800
Speaker 1: and then I'll get those higher fees and then and

1278
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:02,000
Speaker 1: and that I'll be able to do this. Yeah. No,

1279
01:15:02,160 --> 01:15:05,000
Speaker 1: and without that, I mean, he was the only photographer

1280
01:15:05,320 --> 01:15:08,439
Speaker 1: on Omaha Beach on the day. We wouldn't have those images.

1281
01:15:08,439 --> 01:15:10,920
Speaker 1: There's images from when he uh, the the year that

1282
01:15:11,000 --> 01:15:13,120
Speaker 1: he died, when he was into the Indo China War.

1283
01:15:13,720 --> 01:15:16,479
Speaker 1: I mean I stopped, I paused the video. I looked

1284
01:15:16,520 --> 01:15:19,880
Speaker 1: at it. It is beautiful with soldiers walking line, there's tank,

1285
01:15:19,960 --> 01:15:22,840
Speaker 1: there's dust of sunset. This is all in black and white.

1286
01:15:22,960 --> 01:15:28,439
Speaker 1: Remember there's no color, and it is image. He did

1287
01:15:28,439 --> 01:15:32,240
Speaker 1: a fantastic job, and I would recommend that everybody go

1288
01:15:32,280 --> 01:15:35,519
Speaker 1: out and look at Kappa's work. We will, of course

1289
01:15:35,560 --> 01:15:38,480
Speaker 1: have the image of the falling soldier on the website.

1290
01:15:38,880 --> 01:15:42,439
Speaker 1: I will also put up as a secondary link the

1291
01:15:43,320 --> 01:15:46,080
Speaker 1: comparison photo that I've made, the animated gift that is

1292
01:15:46,320 --> 01:15:49,200
Speaker 1: rotating so you can see them overlaid on each other,

1293
01:15:49,240 --> 01:15:52,720
Speaker 1: because it really helps explain what we've talked about so far.

1294
01:15:53,720 --> 01:15:55,800
Speaker 1: That is all going to be on our website, which

1295
01:15:55,840 --> 01:15:59,519
Speaker 1: is Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. There'll be a couple

1296
01:15:59,520 --> 01:16:01,840
Speaker 1: of other search links on there as always, and then

1297
01:16:01,880 --> 01:16:04,519
Speaker 1: you can listen to and download the episode from there.

1298
01:16:05,000 --> 01:16:07,080
Speaker 1: On the website, you're also going to find the episode

1299
01:16:07,120 --> 01:16:10,400
Speaker 1: list as a separate page, and then you'll also find

1300
01:16:10,800 --> 01:16:15,640
Speaker 1: links to merchandise so hats, mugs, coffee cups, sob shirts,

1301
01:16:15,640 --> 01:16:19,080
Speaker 1: all that no hats, actually no hats, shirts and all

1302
01:16:19,120 --> 01:16:22,160
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. Don't have a hat because embroidery

1303
01:16:22,240 --> 01:16:26,280
Speaker 1: is expensive, it turns out, so that stuff is all

1304
01:16:26,280 --> 01:16:28,680
Speaker 1: on the website. Now, if you don't want to just

1305
01:16:28,760 --> 01:16:31,679
Speaker 1: listen to and download through the website, you can always

1306
01:16:31,720 --> 01:16:34,760
Speaker 1: go to any of the streaming services. So if you

1307
01:16:34,800 --> 01:16:38,519
Speaker 1: get your podcasts through Apple, you can go ahead and

1308
01:16:38,560 --> 01:16:41,280
Speaker 1: subscribe and leave us a rating. We appreciate that and

1309
01:16:41,320 --> 01:16:45,040
Speaker 1: that helps others find us. We're also in other streaming services,

1310
01:16:45,080 --> 01:16:47,760
Speaker 1: so are good friends at Stitcher have us, so you

1311
01:16:47,760 --> 01:16:51,599
Speaker 1: can always find us on Stitcher. We are all over

1312
01:16:51,720 --> 01:16:55,800
Speaker 1: social media, so we have the Facebook page and the

1313
01:16:55,840 --> 01:16:58,880
Speaker 1: Facebook groups of the pages where we put episodes and

1314
01:16:58,920 --> 01:17:01,120
Speaker 1: other fun stuff, and then the group is where the

1315
01:17:01,280 --> 01:17:05,719
Speaker 1: episode discussions will happen. There's also episode discussions that happened

1316
01:17:05,800 --> 01:17:08,800
Speaker 1: on our subreddit, so you can look that up. And

1317
01:17:08,840 --> 01:17:11,839
Speaker 1: then we have a couple other places. We have Twitter

1318
01:17:11,920 --> 01:17:15,200
Speaker 1: where there's some conversations and fun stuff going, and then

1319
01:17:15,240 --> 01:17:19,439
Speaker 1: Instagram were putting other weird funds. There's all kinds of fun,

1320
01:17:19,479 --> 01:17:21,880
Speaker 1: weird stuff coming from thinking. You can connect with all

1321
01:17:21,920 --> 01:17:24,559
Speaker 1: of us. Absolutely. Remember on Instagram, it is not thinking

1322
01:17:24,600 --> 01:17:27,439
Speaker 1: sideways is thinking Sideways Podcast thanks to it from our

1323
01:17:27,479 --> 01:17:29,719
Speaker 1: Facebook or our website, you get to the right spot.

1324
01:17:30,400 --> 01:17:34,559
Speaker 1: And of course if you questions, comments, stories, you want

1325
01:17:34,560 --> 01:17:36,599
Speaker 1: to suggest, you can reach out and give those two

1326
01:17:36,680 --> 01:17:40,280
Speaker 1: us directly through our email, which is Thinking Sideways Podcast

1327
01:17:40,760 --> 01:17:43,800
Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. It takes us a little bit

1328
01:17:43,840 --> 01:17:45,720
Speaker 1: these days to get back, but we're always trying to

1329
01:17:45,720 --> 01:17:47,800
Speaker 1: get back to people as quickly as we can, so

1330
01:17:48,080 --> 01:17:50,240
Speaker 1: if it doesn't happen on day one, I apologize, but

1331
01:17:50,280 --> 01:17:52,760
Speaker 1: we're doing our best. That thing is always full. It's

1332
01:17:52,840 --> 01:17:56,519
Speaker 1: literally us three, literally responding to everything. We don't have

1333
01:17:57,840 --> 01:18:00,960
Speaker 1: still to get me turn all right, we should call

1334
01:18:01,080 --> 01:18:06,080
Speaker 1: Justin again. Yeah, podcast doesn't do anything. I think. That

1335
01:18:06,240 --> 01:18:09,400
Speaker 1: is all that I have to say about this particular mystery.

1336
01:18:10,000 --> 01:18:12,200
Speaker 1: It's all laid out there in black and white. So

1337
01:18:12,560 --> 01:18:15,360
Speaker 1: we will talk to you guys next week, fake but real.

1338
01:18:16,439 --> 01:18:19,960
Speaker 1: I'm sorry for the successfully nerdy episode.