WEBVTT - Turning Old Cans Into Clean Energy 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:23.036 Pushkin. Out of everything we cover on this show, out 0:00:23.036 --> 0:00:26.196 of all the themes I do, I have to admit 0:00:26.356 --> 0:00:29.596 have a favorite. My favorite theme. My favorite thing we 0:00:29.676 --> 0:00:33.996 cover is the energy transition. There are a bunch of 0:00:33.996 --> 0:00:38.356 reasons I love the energy transition shows. One reason the 0:00:38.436 --> 0:00:44.156 giant obvious global stakes right fighting climate change to the 0:00:44.196 --> 0:00:47.196 people working on the energy transition. The people I talk 0:00:47.276 --> 0:00:50.956 to in these shows actually make me feel hope rather 0:00:51.036 --> 0:00:55.236 than despair. It's a big one and three. Reason number three, 0:00:55.516 --> 0:00:58.516 which is related to reason number two, is there is 0:00:58.596 --> 0:01:03.036 just so much creativity in this field, in this set 0:01:03.036 --> 0:01:06.796 of industries. There's so much of people looking at the 0:01:06.836 --> 0:01:10.836 world and trying to think at a really basic, fundamental, 0:01:10.916 --> 0:01:14.636 kind of first principles level, how can we solve these 0:01:14.716 --> 0:01:18.436 giant problems? How can we get the carbon free energy 0:01:18.476 --> 0:01:27.236 we need at a price we can afford. I'm Jacob 0:01:27.236 --> 0:01:29.556 Goldstein and this is What's Your Problem, the show where 0:01:29.596 --> 0:01:32.676 I talk to people who are trying to make technological progress. 0:01:33.196 --> 0:01:36.036 My guest today is Peter Goddard. He's the co founder 0:01:36.076 --> 0:01:39.516 and CEO of Found Energy. Found Energy is in its 0:01:39.556 --> 0:01:42.916 early stages, but the fundamental idea behind the company is 0:01:42.956 --> 0:01:48.196 so creative and audacious and frankly so intellectually fun that 0:01:48.316 --> 0:01:51.996 I really wanted to talk to Peter. Peter's problem is this, 0:01:52.636 --> 0:01:56.156 how can you use aluminum, just regular aluminum, like from 0:01:56.196 --> 0:01:59.676 an empty can of coke, as a new source of energy. 0:02:00.476 --> 0:02:03.156 The idea of using aluminum as an energy source first 0:02:03.196 --> 0:02:05.316 came to Peter not as a way to deal with 0:02:05.396 --> 0:02:08.596 problems on Earth, but to deal with problems in space, 0:02:09.196 --> 0:02:13.276 specifically problems on Europa. Europa, as you may already know, 0:02:13.476 --> 0:02:16.756 is an icy moon of Jupiter. At the time the 0:02:16.796 --> 0:02:19.636 idea came to him, Peter was working at JPL at 0:02:19.756 --> 0:02:22.636 NASA's Jet propulsion LAUD. He was part of a team 0:02:22.716 --> 0:02:26.076 designing a spaceship to send to Europa. The idea was 0:02:26.116 --> 0:02:28.796 that the spaceship would land on the Moon and then 0:02:28.916 --> 0:02:31.476 drill down through the thick sheet of ice to the 0:02:31.516 --> 0:02:35.196 water below to look for signs of life. But drilling 0:02:35.236 --> 0:02:36.836 through all that ice was going to take a lot 0:02:36.836 --> 0:02:39.316 of energy, and Peter and his colleagues were trying to 0:02:39.316 --> 0:02:41.796 figure out how to send that energy all the way 0:02:41.876 --> 0:02:44.436 to Europa to this moon orbiting Jupiter. 0:02:44.636 --> 0:02:48.316 When you send something into space, mass is super precious, 0:02:49.236 --> 0:02:53.916 you know, every gram is very expensive, you know, in 0:02:53.996 --> 0:02:56.756 terms of payload, and so we were sort of sitting 0:02:56.756 --> 0:03:00.156 around debating, you know, like what could go in this 0:03:00.236 --> 0:03:05.036 like little space in that spacecraft that would pack enough energy. 0:03:05.116 --> 0:03:08.636 So we're talking about different lithium ion batteries, for example, 0:03:09.516 --> 0:03:12.036 and I'm sitting there realizing that we're not really thinking 0:03:12.156 --> 0:03:15.476 holistically enough about this problem because the framing and the 0:03:15.756 --> 0:03:19.196 shell and the structural members of the spacecraft are made 0:03:19.196 --> 0:03:21.956 from aluminum, which is you know, twenty time twenty to 0:03:21.996 --> 0:03:25.356 forty times more energy dense than those lithium ion batteries. 0:03:25.756 --> 0:03:28.916 Like I'm looking at these renderings of these spacecraft that 0:03:28.916 --> 0:03:32.556 are sitting on the surface of Europa and then realizing like, 0:03:32.796 --> 0:03:35.556 oh my god, most of this aluminum is doing absolutely nothing, 0:03:35.636 --> 0:03:39.436 Like there's basically it's microgravity on these or on these 0:03:39.476 --> 0:03:42.276 moons that you know, they don't need to be they 0:03:42.276 --> 0:03:45.316 don't need to withstand crazy forces. Once they're there, they 0:03:45.356 --> 0:03:48.476 have to survive launch and then once they're there and landing, 0:03:48.476 --> 0:03:51.156 and then once they're there essentially doing nothing. And I 0:03:51.156 --> 0:03:55.236 thought this is insane, like why are we not why 0:03:55.276 --> 0:03:58.796 we're not utilizing this this energy just sitting around when 0:03:58.956 --> 0:04:01.356 you know, every single gram that you send into space 0:04:01.516 --> 0:04:04.156 is so precious. So I pitched this idea of saying, like, 0:04:04.356 --> 0:04:07.756 you know what if we could consume that aluminum for energy, 0:04:07.796 --> 0:04:11.396 that would dramatically reduce the constraints on what needs to 0:04:11.436 --> 0:04:14.156 go in that in that energy storage box there? 0:04:15.076 --> 0:04:17.316 And what did? What did? What was the response when 0:04:17.356 --> 0:04:18.156 you pitched that idea? 0:04:18.916 --> 0:04:21.196 The response was essentially, you know that that just might 0:04:21.236 --> 0:04:22.316 be crazy enough to work. 0:04:22.356 --> 0:04:24.796 And do they say that every day at JPL. People 0:04:24.876 --> 0:04:27.676 love saying that at JFL, I've had they do. There's 0:04:27.676 --> 0:04:28.396 a lot of out of. 0:04:28.316 --> 0:04:31.356 The box thinkers over there. It was, It's a wonderful 0:04:31.356 --> 0:04:31.876 place to work. 0:04:32.276 --> 0:04:34.156 So what happens you have this idea? What happened? 0:04:34.356 --> 0:04:37.076 Yeah, so we're sort of sitting around and bouncing ideas 0:04:38.196 --> 0:04:41.876 off one another. I proposed this idea and and you know, 0:04:42.116 --> 0:04:45.636 people sort of dismissed it immediately and then thought from 0:04:45.916 --> 0:04:48.436 and realized, actually, you know, there might be something here. 0:04:49.116 --> 0:04:53.396 So I actually got some some funds to start my 0:04:53.396 --> 0:04:56.316 own research lab sort of within JPL, to to take 0:04:56.356 --> 0:04:58.916 a look at this. I sort of cheekily called it 0:04:58.956 --> 0:05:01.196 the self Cannibalizing Robot Project. 0:05:01.316 --> 0:05:03.036 Because the spaceship is going to go to a moon 0:05:03.076 --> 0:05:05.996 of Jupiter and then eat itself, burn itself up to 0:05:06.076 --> 0:05:08.156 provide energy for its for its work. 0:05:08.356 --> 0:05:11.916 Exactly, it's going to assume that super energy, dense exoskeleton 0:05:11.916 --> 0:05:13.076 that it no longer needs. 0:05:13.156 --> 0:05:15.756 Like, what does that actually look like in your mind? Like, 0:05:15.796 --> 0:05:18.796 so this thing is there, it's on this moon of Jupiter. 0:05:19.236 --> 0:05:20.556 What actually happens? 0:05:20.836 --> 0:05:22.796 So to give you an example of how this might look, 0:05:22.836 --> 0:05:27.316 So the spacecraft would have these aluminum landing legs. They 0:05:27.356 --> 0:05:29.556 would land on the surface of this this icy moon, 0:05:30.316 --> 0:05:34.036 and those legs would essentially cork screw into the ice 0:05:34.396 --> 0:05:38.356 and once they're there, they undergo this process called activation, 0:05:38.476 --> 0:05:40.636 where you have this large chunk of aluminium. It can 0:05:40.676 --> 0:05:44.036 actually get broken down by water. It's basically a rusting process, 0:05:44.116 --> 0:05:48.196 but accelerated, you know, like a million times. And the 0:05:48.236 --> 0:05:52.396 process is exothermic as well. So as that aluminum starts exothermically, 0:05:52.396 --> 0:05:54.676 it is releasing heat, reacting with that water, it's producing 0:05:54.716 --> 0:05:59.036 hydrogen gas. These legs actually leave behind these little underground 0:05:59.156 --> 0:06:04.956 caverns of hydrogen gas. So the leg detaches, it degrades, 0:06:04.956 --> 0:06:07.276 it disintegrates the rusts, and then it leaves behind this 0:06:07.316 --> 0:06:11.236 little cavern of hydrogen which then that robot or maybe 0:06:11.236 --> 0:06:14.876 other robots can navigate over and tap into as a 0:06:14.916 --> 0:06:15.716 refueling station. 0:06:16.756 --> 0:06:21.396 So the landing legs decay, they leave behind hydrogen, and 0:06:21.436 --> 0:06:25.596 that hydrogen is fuel that can then power the drill 0:06:25.636 --> 0:06:26.996 that's going to go deep down into the. 0:06:26.916 --> 0:06:31.556 Ice exactly, or communications or you know, imagery equipment. 0:06:31.916 --> 0:06:33.396 So did it get anywhere? 0:06:34.596 --> 0:06:38.436 So we ended up proving out some of the core 0:06:38.476 --> 0:06:42.796 aspects of that technology. The specific program I was working on, 0:06:42.836 --> 0:06:45.596 the funding was sort of called into question. You know, 0:06:45.636 --> 0:06:48.996 these are big congressional It's basically a line item in 0:06:49.236 --> 0:06:52.756 a congressional budget, and for whatever reason, that went away 0:06:52.796 --> 0:06:54.916 and the interest waned. 0:06:55.156 --> 0:06:58.116 And you leave when your project gets canceled. 0:06:59.036 --> 0:07:03.596 So I, yes, I ended up leaving and going back 0:07:03.636 --> 0:07:08.276 to school to further this concept. And I had found 0:07:08.516 --> 0:07:10.676 a professor that I had worked with as an undergrad, 0:07:10.956 --> 0:07:15.556 Doug Heart, who was really excited to take this technology 0:07:15.636 --> 0:07:17.836 to the next level where we could actually use it 0:07:17.836 --> 0:07:18.836 for Earth applications. 0:07:19.196 --> 0:07:23.716 Huh. So use it for Earth applications is a big difference. 0:07:23.876 --> 0:07:26.356 Like you had a spaceship that eats itself, which seems 0:07:26.396 --> 0:07:29.436 like very elegant and very reasonable, right, because the core 0:07:29.476 --> 0:07:31.796 idea is like, oh, it's really hard to get to Jupiter. 0:07:31.836 --> 0:07:35.196 It's really hard to get you know, the marginal gram 0:07:35.236 --> 0:07:37.116 of stuff to Jupiter. So if we can use the 0:07:37.116 --> 0:07:41.396 spaceship itself, that's amazing. Like it's not obvious to me 0:07:41.436 --> 0:07:43.396 that you'd be like, oh, the Jupiter think got canceled, 0:07:43.436 --> 0:07:45.196 but let's use it on Earth, Like why is that 0:07:45.276 --> 0:07:47.636 a why does that even come to mind? 0:07:47.716 --> 0:07:50.076 So, for one, you know, I was really obsessed with 0:07:50.596 --> 0:07:54.676 doing something Earth related. You know, I spent all my 0:07:54.796 --> 0:07:59.356 time every waking second, thinking externally, thinking about the Solar System, 0:07:59.396 --> 0:08:03.596 thinking about these other planets, life elsewhere, realizing how precious 0:08:03.796 --> 0:08:08.156 and especial and interesting it is that we have life 0:08:08.156 --> 0:08:12.196 on Earth now and uh, and wanting to do something 0:08:12.236 --> 0:08:14.556 to preserve that just sort of a sense of like 0:08:14.796 --> 0:08:17.316 cosmic you know, beauty if you if you will. 0:08:17.876 --> 0:08:20.596 Like having looked at these other planets and moons, is like, boy, 0:08:20.956 --> 0:08:23.396 that'd be a way harder place to live than Earth. 0:08:24.316 --> 0:08:25.796 Yeah, I mean, you know, you'r lived ex I was 0:08:25.836 --> 0:08:27.876 living in la at the time, and like, there's so 0:08:27.956 --> 0:08:30.236 much to point to and and and think. Was sort 0:08:30.236 --> 0:08:31.956 of miserable at the place. You know, you're stuck in 0:08:32.036 --> 0:08:35.236 traffic and you look over and someone's sort of screaming 0:08:35.276 --> 0:08:37.996 to themselves in the car next next to you, and 0:08:37.996 --> 0:08:40.916 and realizing, you know, existence on life is really hard. 0:08:40.956 --> 0:08:43.356 But when you spend so much time looking at at 0:08:43.396 --> 0:08:46.796 existence or the possibility exist on other planets, you realize, 0:08:46.876 --> 0:08:48.556 you know, we we have it pretty good. And you know, 0:08:48.596 --> 0:08:52.436 we've spent actually literally billions of years adapting to to 0:08:52.516 --> 0:08:55.836 the gravity of Earth and to the pressures and to 0:08:55.916 --> 0:08:58.876 the temperatures. And you know, why, why waste that? Why 0:08:58.916 --> 0:09:00.756 waste that? So? 0:09:00.956 --> 0:09:05.756 Okay, so you you start looking down instead of looking up, 0:09:06.316 --> 0:09:08.636 Uh wha, what happens? 0:09:09.676 --> 0:09:14.116 So I started thinking about, okay, where where else might 0:09:14.156 --> 0:09:21.076 we find energy that's being underutilized on Earth? And I 0:09:21.836 --> 0:09:24.316 realized that there was a lot of aluminum sitting around 0:09:24.396 --> 0:09:27.036 doing nothing on Earth. You know, it's I looked into 0:09:27.076 --> 0:09:30.996 aluminium recycling, realized that there's a bit of green washing 0:09:30.996 --> 0:09:32.756 going on. We don't do as good of a job 0:09:32.796 --> 0:09:34.516 as we think. And you know, it's just it's more 0:09:34.556 --> 0:09:38.476 difficult to recycle aluminum than we're led to believe. 0:09:38.476 --> 0:09:41.876 Often, even aluminum cans. I would think aluminum cans would 0:09:41.876 --> 0:09:47.116 all be uniform and therefore relatively manageable to recycle. Not 0:09:47.196 --> 0:09:47.796 so well. 0:09:47.836 --> 0:09:50.676 We've created an interesting problem for ourselves there, because an 0:09:50.676 --> 0:09:54.276 aluminum can is actually two different allays. There's the sort 0:09:54.276 --> 0:09:56.676 of cap is a separate piece from the body, which 0:09:56.916 --> 0:10:00.396 needs to be deep drawn, and so you need basically 0:10:00.476 --> 0:10:02.836 different properties for the manufacturing. And you know, when you 0:10:02.876 --> 0:10:05.036 open the can, you want it to sort of snap 0:10:05.116 --> 0:10:07.396 open and be very satisfying. 0:10:07.436 --> 0:10:10.476 That snap if it's destroying the world, that's an unfortunate 0:10:10.756 --> 0:10:12.156 consequence exactly. 0:10:12.236 --> 0:10:13.916 But with the body, you don't want that snap when 0:10:13.956 --> 0:10:16.756 you're when you're manufacturing it. And so so they end 0:10:16.836 --> 0:10:18.596 up using two different alloys, and so when you melt 0:10:18.636 --> 0:10:21.156 it back down, you basically can only make one of those, 0:10:22.196 --> 0:10:26.316 and you have to add some primary aluminum s virgin 0:10:26.356 --> 0:10:29.236 aluminum in order to do that, because you have to 0:10:29.276 --> 0:10:31.316 dilute out some of the impurities. All that to say, 0:10:31.596 --> 0:10:35.836 it's it's a much harder problem than people think. And 0:10:35.876 --> 0:10:38.156 what that means practically speaking is that a lot of 0:10:38.196 --> 0:10:41.436 aluminum just ends up in landfills. You know, it ends 0:10:41.476 --> 0:10:44.236 up getting exported to countries where manual labor is cheaper, 0:10:44.276 --> 0:10:46.876 so that they can pick out those impurities by hand 0:10:47.756 --> 0:10:49.476 sorting is not quite there yet. 0:10:49.956 --> 0:10:51.556 Uh and uh and and so. 0:10:51.516 --> 0:10:53.956 You end up with billions of tons of aluminum that 0:10:53.956 --> 0:10:55.716 that is underutilized. 0:10:56.036 --> 0:10:59.556 So let's let's talk about aluminum for a minute, because 0:10:59.596 --> 0:11:02.756 it's really interesting, right, Like, there is this whole history 0:11:02.756 --> 0:11:05.636 of aluminum. You know, if you go back a couple 0:11:05.716 --> 0:11:08.156 hundred years at this point, right, it is used to 0:11:08.196 --> 0:11:13.276 be this wildly precious metal because even though it's super 0:11:13.276 --> 0:11:17.916 abundant in the in the earth, it is pretty much 0:11:17.956 --> 0:11:21.316 always bound up with something else, usually oxygen. Right, there 0:11:21.396 --> 0:11:24.156 was this moment that everybody writes about it, and I 0:11:24.196 --> 0:11:28.916 hope it's true. Where like Napoleon the third right, the Napoleon. 0:11:28.956 --> 0:11:33.276 After Napoleon supposedly like for his like B list guests 0:11:33.316 --> 0:11:35.636 would give them plates of like silver and gold, but 0:11:35.716 --> 0:11:38.356 the A list guests got the aluminum plates because there 0:11:38.436 --> 0:11:42.796 was this wildly rare, beautiful thing. But then somebody figured 0:11:42.836 --> 0:11:47.076 out how to make illuminum much more easily, right, yeah, yeah, exactly. 0:11:47.116 --> 0:11:49.716 I mean, so if you think about like the ages 0:11:50.076 --> 0:11:53.076 of society, right, there's like the Stone Age, and then 0:11:53.156 --> 0:11:56.316 there's the Iron Age and the Bronze Age, and you 0:11:56.356 --> 0:11:59.516 know the order in which those occurred are basically how 0:11:59.716 --> 0:12:03.716 how close to that useful form are they found in nature? 0:12:04.036 --> 0:12:07.916 So obviously the stone age triviual. The stone is the 0:12:07.956 --> 0:12:08.796 stone is a stone. 0:12:09.236 --> 0:12:10.836 Finding a rock is the easy part. 0:12:10.956 --> 0:12:13.116 Yes, you put a rock on top of another rock. 0:12:13.476 --> 0:12:15.396 You do that a couple more times, and you've got 0:12:15.636 --> 0:12:18.196 you've got stonehengs, you've got you've got houses, you've got 0:12:18.236 --> 0:12:20.436 you know, we were we were doing a good job 0:12:21.676 --> 0:12:26.676 stacking stones. Slightly more complicated, you know, you have metals 0:12:26.956 --> 0:12:30.356 that are more closely found in their elemental forms, so 0:12:30.396 --> 0:12:33.756 things like copper. And then you have things that are 0:12:33.956 --> 0:12:38.636 not found as a pure metal but can be easily reduced. 0:12:38.916 --> 0:12:40.996 So something like iron, for example, is a little bit 0:12:40.996 --> 0:12:43.436 easier where you can take the iron ore and you 0:12:43.476 --> 0:12:46.716 can heat it up with some some carbon usually just 0:12:46.756 --> 0:12:50.756 from some some charcoal, uh, and get a workable metal there. 0:12:51.116 --> 0:12:53.636 But this is way more complex than stones. We've made 0:12:53.636 --> 0:12:57.116 some technological progress there, yes, so big leap, maybe the biggest. 0:12:57.236 --> 0:12:57.996 It's a huge leap. 0:12:58.396 --> 0:13:01.316 Uh. And and then and then you get to aluminum, which, 0:13:01.956 --> 0:13:05.596 despite being extremely abundant, is like you said, is not 0:13:05.756 --> 0:13:09.916 found in its its base metal elemental form. It's found 0:13:09.956 --> 0:13:14.956 as various aluminum oxides, and aluminum binds super tightly to 0:13:15.396 --> 0:13:19.556 those oxygen atoms, and so to rip them off requires 0:13:19.636 --> 0:13:20.756 a lot of energy. 0:13:20.596 --> 0:13:23.676 Right, And as I understand it, because of that, aluminum 0:13:23.756 --> 0:13:27.436 in its pure form was super rare until like well 0:13:27.476 --> 0:13:31.396 into the nineteenth century, and then there was essentially this 0:13:31.636 --> 0:13:33.236 technological breakthrough, right. 0:13:33.316 --> 0:13:38.356 Yeah, in the eighteen hundreds, independently, an American scientist Hall 0:13:38.476 --> 0:13:42.636 and the I believe a French scientist Hero both figured 0:13:42.636 --> 0:13:48.596 out an electrochemical process that worked, and yeah, within the 0:13:48.636 --> 0:13:51.356 span of a couple decades, you know, they were actually 0:13:51.436 --> 0:13:55.356 able to start making kilograms and then tons of that material. 0:13:55.436 --> 0:13:59.836 And Hall, by the way, started the Aluminum Company of America, right, 0:13:59.876 --> 0:14:02.996 which is Alcoa, which is today steal a giant company. 0:14:03.036 --> 0:14:05.556 Like the dude who figured it out started that company 0:14:05.636 --> 0:14:08.676 is like, it's like the Edison, It's like the ge 0:14:08.916 --> 0:14:11.276 of aluminum. Right, Like a guy figured it out and 0:14:11.316 --> 0:14:14.356 started a company, and it's still a giant company exactly. 0:14:14.876 --> 0:14:20.156 And the US government was so proud of this achievement 0:14:20.276 --> 0:14:24.916 that they cast which at the time was I think 0:14:24.956 --> 0:14:28.556 the largest piece of cast aluminum, which is like three kilograms. 0:14:28.996 --> 0:14:34.036 They cast the point for the Washington Monument in Washington, 0:14:34.116 --> 0:14:34.316 d C. 0:14:35.596 --> 0:14:38.356 Because aluminum was so fine and so modern, and it 0:14:38.396 --> 0:14:41.236 was like the symbol of the age. 0:14:41.636 --> 0:14:44.876 Exactly, and it had all these unique properties that made 0:14:44.916 --> 0:14:48.836 it so valuable for just a very wide range of applications. 0:14:50.196 --> 0:14:52.276 So you start with the work in space. Then you 0:14:52.316 --> 0:14:55.476 start looking at Earth and seeing all this underutilized aluminum, 0:14:55.556 --> 0:15:01.916 which you recognize as this incredible potential source of energy. 0:15:02.116 --> 0:15:05.036 Like where does that all go? Like where do you land? 0:15:05.316 --> 0:15:07.436 So then I had to pivot a little bit and 0:15:07.516 --> 0:15:11.076 look at a problem that you know, people care more 0:15:11.116 --> 0:15:14.876 about from a financial sense, and that's just this general 0:15:14.916 --> 0:15:19.356 idea of fuel moving energy around. And it turns out 0:15:19.396 --> 0:15:21.516 aluminum is really good for that. 0:15:23.436 --> 0:15:26.676 Because it is so energy dense. Weirdly, if you can 0:15:27.716 --> 0:15:30.796 if you can figure out a relatively straightforward way of 0:15:30.796 --> 0:15:33.676 getting the energy out of aluminum when and where you 0:15:33.716 --> 0:15:37.636 want to, then suddenly aluminum itself is this incredible fuel 0:15:37.716 --> 0:15:39.876 that we just don't think of as fuel exactly. 0:15:39.916 --> 0:15:42.036 And you know, aluminum is actually the most abundant metal 0:15:42.156 --> 0:15:44.836 in the Earth's crust, so it's not something we'd run 0:15:44.836 --> 0:15:45.116 out of. 0:15:45.316 --> 0:15:47.596 So I get the idea. Right. At some point, you 0:15:47.636 --> 0:15:49.836 start a company and try and go from an idea 0:15:49.956 --> 0:15:54.636 to you know, a thing in the world, where are 0:15:54.636 --> 0:15:56.316 you now, Like what what are you doing? 0:15:56.836 --> 0:16:01.596 So like countries like Germany or Japan, you know, most 0:16:01.636 --> 0:16:04.836 of the energy that they consume is fossil based and 0:16:04.836 --> 0:16:09.636 a lot of it is imported. And so because aluminum 0:16:09.636 --> 0:16:12.516 has these properties where it's energy dense, the productions electrified, 0:16:12.596 --> 0:16:17.276 it's super abundant, it's a great candidate for replacing fossil 0:16:17.276 --> 0:16:21.916 fuels for those applications. And so that meant that we 0:16:21.996 --> 0:16:25.036 needed to get the cost down of using this process. 0:16:25.836 --> 0:16:28.276 You know, when you're essentially burning something, it needs to 0:16:28.316 --> 0:16:32.476 be quite literally dirt cheap. And you know, we were 0:16:32.476 --> 0:16:36.836 doing some interesting things with catalysts and promoters, and you know, 0:16:36.836 --> 0:16:39.316 whenever you're doing industrial chemistry, sort of the devil's in 0:16:39.316 --> 0:16:43.396 the details in terms of the cost drivers. And so 0:16:44.276 --> 0:16:46.916 that gave me this new motivation to start, you know, 0:16:47.156 --> 0:16:49.356 solving those correct problems, so to speak. 0:16:49.396 --> 0:16:54.356 And that's what correct because they're correct in terms of 0:16:54.436 --> 0:16:58.196 the market. Correct because somebody might actually pay you to 0:16:58.276 --> 0:17:00.876 do the thing at scale. That's what makes it correct. 0:17:01.116 --> 0:17:03.716 Yeah, it's the it's usually the thing that's really hard 0:17:03.796 --> 0:17:06.356 that standing in the way of someone actually using this 0:17:06.436 --> 0:17:08.156 technology in a practical sense. 0:17:08.916 --> 0:17:12.356 And in this instance, what is the thing that's really 0:17:12.396 --> 0:17:14.996 hard that's standing in the way of someone using this technology. 0:17:15.116 --> 0:17:17.276 It's always cost at the end of the day. 0:17:17.756 --> 0:17:22.356 Technoeconomics, right, that term talking to sort of energy transition 0:17:23.276 --> 0:17:28.556 people like technoeconomics is fundamentally what the energy transition is about. Right, 0:17:29.556 --> 0:17:35.476 exactly where where are you now? What like specifically, do 0:17:35.556 --> 0:17:37.556 you have a sort of first use case in mind? 0:17:37.996 --> 0:17:40.796 Our first you know, beach head market so to speak, 0:17:41.396 --> 0:17:44.396 is actually in the aluminum industry. It's a way of 0:17:44.716 --> 0:17:48.836 enabling circularity within the illumin industry to solve this issue 0:17:48.916 --> 0:17:52.636 that aluminum waste is not always efficiently handled. So what 0:17:52.756 --> 0:17:55.796 we can do is we can take aluminum waste. We 0:17:55.836 --> 0:18:00.076 can extract that energy to decarbonize some of the last 0:18:00.116 --> 0:18:05.076 remaining truly fossil based processes in the illuminum industry. 0:18:05.196 --> 0:18:07.636 So, just to be clear, this initial use you're using 0:18:07.756 --> 0:18:10.236 the ideas to use scrap a loluminium as a source 0:18:10.276 --> 0:18:13.596 of energy that will be used in making new. 0:18:13.476 --> 0:18:18.796 Aluminium exactly, or just in making aluminum oxide, which can 0:18:18.836 --> 0:18:20.716 also go and turn into other products as well. 0:18:21.156 --> 0:18:26.516 So okay, So that is a weird clever place to start. 0:18:27.076 --> 0:18:29.516 Are you actually doing that? Yeah? 0:18:29.556 --> 0:18:31.796 So today we're doing it on a small scale, but 0:18:31.956 --> 0:18:34.556 it is it's definitely at a subscale. So you know, 0:18:34.596 --> 0:18:39.156 to give you a sense, these plants are producing aluminum 0:18:39.156 --> 0:18:42.676 on such a scale that they need megawatts of thermal power, 0:18:43.156 --> 0:18:46.996 we're still at killowat scale. We're maybe twenty to fifty 0:18:47.116 --> 0:18:49.956 x away from really getting started in a meaningful way. 0:18:51.596 --> 0:18:55.356 Okay, so that's the first one. Like what's the like 0:18:55.516 --> 0:18:57.796 less niche one. That's a little bit farther. 0:18:57.556 --> 0:19:01.316 Out right, So what's interesting, like on our global scales, 0:19:01.476 --> 0:19:04.836 if we look at today's aluminum supply chain, because it 0:19:04.996 --> 0:19:08.076 is their energy intensive to make, it's essentially an energy 0:19:08.076 --> 0:19:11.956 supply chain. So we can look at at where what 0:19:12.036 --> 0:19:16.236 countries are connected by these aluminum flows and and see 0:19:16.236 --> 0:19:18.756 that oh, actually, you know, you could you can essentially 0:19:18.796 --> 0:19:21.276 just expand this and then use it directly as an 0:19:21.356 --> 0:19:23.436 energy flow in addition to just a material flow. 0:19:23.796 --> 0:19:27.436 Right, So if you're if you're making aluminum in Iceland 0:19:27.636 --> 0:19:32.476 and sending it to Germany, you're functionally sending energy from 0:19:32.556 --> 0:19:36.156 the whatever geothermal vents in Iceland to Germany. You just 0:19:36.196 --> 0:19:38.956 don't know it because you think you're sending aluminum cans. 0:19:38.996 --> 0:19:39.836 Is that what you mean? 0:19:39.996 --> 0:19:43.636 Yes, although in Iceland right they're using more hydro to 0:19:44.036 --> 0:19:47.516 make the their aluminum, but similar ideas. So you know, 0:19:47.916 --> 0:19:50.876 it's actually this closed loop process where you you essentially 0:19:50.996 --> 0:19:54.236 recharge your aluminum oxide in a place like Iceland, you 0:19:54.356 --> 0:19:58.996 then ship just that metal in these big billets to Germany. 0:19:59.316 --> 0:20:03.116 You use our process to turn that into heat, uh, 0:20:03.156 --> 0:20:06.636 and then you send that aluminum oxide essentially back on 0:20:06.676 --> 0:20:09.516 the same boat maybe that that brought to in the 0:20:09.516 --> 0:20:13.236 first place. You and you repeat the process. We're actually 0:20:13.236 --> 0:20:15.796 calling it the world's first rechargeable fuel. 0:20:16.236 --> 0:20:18.436 So you get so let's just talk through both how 0:20:18.476 --> 0:20:20.236 you sort of recharge it, which is basically how you 0:20:20.276 --> 0:20:23.156 make aluminum, and then how you get the the heat 0:20:23.236 --> 0:20:24.796 out of it, right, how you get the energy out 0:20:24.796 --> 0:20:28.116 of it. So just the basic like how you make aluminum, 0:20:28.116 --> 0:20:30.876 you get box side out of the ground. What do 0:20:30.916 --> 0:20:32.116 you do to make aluminum? 0:20:32.556 --> 0:20:36.396 So you know, starting from box site, you heat it up. 0:20:37.196 --> 0:20:40.996 You need to produce aluminum hydroxide, and then you bake 0:20:41.116 --> 0:20:44.036 that and you drive off the water molecules and then 0:20:44.076 --> 0:20:48.116 you're left with a particular grade of aluminum oxide that 0:20:48.276 --> 0:20:53.476 then goes into your hall Hero process where they electrochemically 0:20:54.556 --> 0:20:57.916 split the aluminum and the oxygen, and then you're just 0:20:57.996 --> 0:20:59.516 left with that metallic aluminum. 0:21:00.276 --> 0:21:04.716 Okay, just pure elemental aluminum yep. Okay, So now it 0:21:04.796 --> 0:21:08.636 comes to you what do you do with it? 0:21:08.396 --> 0:21:11.876 So it's proprietary, but it's a it's a surface treatment 0:21:11.996 --> 0:21:16.596 to to the aluminum that that causes the aluminum to 0:21:16.676 --> 0:21:21.716 break down along the micro structure when it's exposed to water. 0:21:22.356 --> 0:21:27.236 Okay. And then so once you've applied your secret sauce 0:21:27.276 --> 0:21:30.316 to the aluminum, what happens in this universe where you're 0:21:30.436 --> 0:21:32.836 using it as a fuel source? Like what what happened? 0:21:33.236 --> 0:21:35.676 So then you know, then you just have sort of 0:21:35.676 --> 0:21:39.236 this general purpose fuel which you can use to replace 0:21:39.316 --> 0:21:41.956 fossil fuels for all sorts of applications. Like I was 0:21:41.956 --> 0:21:45.436 saying earlier, you split water when you let aluminum rusk, 0:21:45.956 --> 0:21:48.636 and so then you have the rest of that energy 0:21:48.956 --> 0:21:52.076 in the hydrogen. You can then just burn that hydrogen 0:21:52.156 --> 0:21:55.356 and then that will just produce heat at you know, 0:21:55.836 --> 0:22:00.156 way above a thousand degrees celsius. And you know, starting 0:22:00.196 --> 0:22:01.756 with those high temperatures, that gives you a lot of 0:22:01.796 --> 0:22:07.636 flexibility to produce steam that can run turbomachinery, but can 0:22:07.676 --> 0:22:10.756 also replace fossil fuel for a lot of really high 0:22:10.756 --> 0:22:12.356 temperature applications a. 0:22:12.356 --> 0:22:15.156 Hard problem, right, Like steel people talk about sort of 0:22:15.236 --> 0:22:18.556 decarbonizing steel and these sort of industrial processes that need 0:22:18.596 --> 0:22:21.876 really high temperatures is a particularly hard problem that you 0:22:21.916 --> 0:22:23.716 can't do with sort of standard and so this could 0:22:23.796 --> 0:22:25.196 do that exactly. 0:22:25.436 --> 0:22:28.716 Yeah, we're just talking high temperature heat and you know, 0:22:29.116 --> 0:22:33.876 any any process that requires that would be a good candidate. 0:22:33.956 --> 0:22:35.876 Like you want it at a steel plant in Germany 0:22:35.956 --> 0:22:37.836