1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:23,036 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Out of everything we cover on this show, out 2 00:00:23,036 --> 00:00:26,196 Speaker 1: of all the themes I do, I have to admit 3 00:00:26,356 --> 00:00:29,596 Speaker 1: have a favorite. My favorite theme. My favorite thing we 4 00:00:29,676 --> 00:00:33,996 Speaker 1: cover is the energy transition. There are a bunch of 5 00:00:33,996 --> 00:00:38,356 Speaker 1: reasons I love the energy transition shows. One reason the 6 00:00:38,436 --> 00:00:44,156 Speaker 1: giant obvious global stakes right fighting climate change to the 7 00:00:44,196 --> 00:00:47,196 Speaker 1: people working on the energy transition. The people I talk 8 00:00:47,276 --> 00:00:50,956 Speaker 1: to in these shows actually make me feel hope rather 9 00:00:51,036 --> 00:00:55,236 Speaker 1: than despair. It's a big one and three. Reason number three, 10 00:00:55,516 --> 00:00:58,516 Speaker 1: which is related to reason number two, is there is 11 00:00:58,596 --> 00:01:03,036 Speaker 1: just so much creativity in this field, in this set 12 00:01:03,036 --> 00:01:06,796 Speaker 1: of industries. There's so much of people looking at the 13 00:01:06,836 --> 00:01:10,836 Speaker 1: world and trying to think at a really basic, fundamental, 14 00:01:10,916 --> 00:01:14,636 Speaker 1: kind of first principles level, how can we solve these 15 00:01:14,716 --> 00:01:18,436 Speaker 1: giant problems? How can we get the carbon free energy 16 00:01:18,476 --> 00:01:27,236 Speaker 1: we need at a price we can afford. I'm Jacob 17 00:01:27,236 --> 00:01:29,556 Speaker 1: Goldstein and this is What's Your Problem, the show where 18 00:01:29,596 --> 00:01:32,676 Speaker 1: I talk to people who are trying to make technological progress. 19 00:01:33,196 --> 00:01:36,036 Speaker 1: My guest today is Peter Goddard. He's the co founder 20 00:01:36,076 --> 00:01:39,516 Speaker 1: and CEO of Found Energy. Found Energy is in its 21 00:01:39,556 --> 00:01:42,916 Speaker 1: early stages, but the fundamental idea behind the company is 22 00:01:42,956 --> 00:01:48,196 Speaker 1: so creative and audacious and frankly so intellectually fun that 23 00:01:48,316 --> 00:01:51,996 Speaker 1: I really wanted to talk to Peter. Peter's problem is this, 24 00:01:52,636 --> 00:01:56,156 Speaker 1: how can you use aluminum, just regular aluminum, like from 25 00:01:56,196 --> 00:01:59,676 Speaker 1: an empty can of coke, as a new source of energy. 26 00:02:00,476 --> 00:02:03,156 Speaker 1: The idea of using aluminum as an energy source first 27 00:02:03,196 --> 00:02:05,316 Speaker 1: came to Peter not as a way to deal with 28 00:02:05,396 --> 00:02:08,596 Speaker 1: problems on Earth, but to deal with problems in space, 29 00:02:09,196 --> 00:02:13,276 Speaker 1: specifically problems on Europa. Europa, as you may already know, 30 00:02:13,476 --> 00:02:16,756 Speaker 1: is an icy moon of Jupiter. At the time the 31 00:02:16,796 --> 00:02:19,636 Speaker 1: idea came to him, Peter was working at JPL at 32 00:02:19,756 --> 00:02:22,636 Speaker 1: NASA's Jet propulsion LAUD. He was part of a team 33 00:02:22,716 --> 00:02:26,076 Speaker 1: designing a spaceship to send to Europa. The idea was 34 00:02:26,116 --> 00:02:28,796 Speaker 1: that the spaceship would land on the Moon and then 35 00:02:28,916 --> 00:02:31,476 Speaker 1: drill down through the thick sheet of ice to the 36 00:02:31,516 --> 00:02:35,196 Speaker 1: water below to look for signs of life. But drilling 37 00:02:35,236 --> 00:02:36,836 Speaker 1: through all that ice was going to take a lot 38 00:02:36,836 --> 00:02:39,316 Speaker 1: of energy, and Peter and his colleagues were trying to 39 00:02:39,316 --> 00:02:41,796 Speaker 1: figure out how to send that energy all the way 40 00:02:41,876 --> 00:02:44,436 Speaker 1: to Europa to this moon orbiting Jupiter. 41 00:02:44,636 --> 00:02:48,316 Speaker 2: When you send something into space, mass is super precious, 42 00:02:49,236 --> 00:02:53,916 Speaker 2: you know, every gram is very expensive, you know, in 43 00:02:53,996 --> 00:02:56,756 Speaker 2: terms of payload, and so we were sort of sitting 44 00:02:56,756 --> 00:03:00,156 Speaker 2: around debating, you know, like what could go in this 45 00:03:00,236 --> 00:03:05,036 Speaker 2: like little space in that spacecraft that would pack enough energy. 46 00:03:05,116 --> 00:03:08,636 Speaker 2: So we're talking about different lithium ion batteries, for example, 47 00:03:09,516 --> 00:03:12,036 Speaker 2: and I'm sitting there realizing that we're not really thinking 48 00:03:12,156 --> 00:03:15,476 Speaker 2: holistically enough about this problem because the framing and the 49 00:03:15,756 --> 00:03:19,196 Speaker 2: shell and the structural members of the spacecraft are made 50 00:03:19,196 --> 00:03:21,956 Speaker 2: from aluminum, which is you know, twenty time twenty to 51 00:03:21,996 --> 00:03:25,356 Speaker 2: forty times more energy dense than those lithium ion batteries. 52 00:03:25,756 --> 00:03:28,916 Speaker 2: Like I'm looking at these renderings of these spacecraft that 53 00:03:28,916 --> 00:03:32,556 Speaker 2: are sitting on the surface of Europa and then realizing like, 54 00:03:32,796 --> 00:03:35,556 Speaker 2: oh my god, most of this aluminum is doing absolutely nothing, 55 00:03:35,636 --> 00:03:39,436 Speaker 2: Like there's basically it's microgravity on these or on these 56 00:03:39,476 --> 00:03:42,276 Speaker 2: moons that you know, they don't need to be they 57 00:03:42,276 --> 00:03:45,316 Speaker 2: don't need to withstand crazy forces. Once they're there, they 58 00:03:45,356 --> 00:03:48,476 Speaker 2: have to survive launch and then once they're there and landing, 59 00:03:48,476 --> 00:03:51,156 Speaker 2: and then once they're there essentially doing nothing. And I 60 00:03:51,156 --> 00:03:55,236 Speaker 2: thought this is insane, like why are we not why 61 00:03:55,276 --> 00:03:58,796 Speaker 2: we're not utilizing this this energy just sitting around when 62 00:03:58,956 --> 00:04:01,356 Speaker 2: you know, every single gram that you send into space 63 00:04:01,516 --> 00:04:04,156 Speaker 2: is so precious. So I pitched this idea of saying, like, 64 00:04:04,356 --> 00:04:07,756 Speaker 2: you know what if we could consume that aluminum for energy, 65 00:04:07,796 --> 00:04:11,396 Speaker 2: that would dramatically reduce the constraints on what needs to 66 00:04:11,436 --> 00:04:14,156 Speaker 2: go in that in that energy storage box there? 67 00:04:15,076 --> 00:04:17,316 Speaker 1: And what did? What did? What was the response when 68 00:04:17,356 --> 00:04:18,156 Speaker 1: you pitched that idea? 69 00:04:18,916 --> 00:04:21,196 Speaker 2: The response was essentially, you know that that just might 70 00:04:21,236 --> 00:04:22,316 Speaker 2: be crazy enough to work. 71 00:04:22,356 --> 00:04:24,796 Speaker 1: And do they say that every day at JPL. People 72 00:04:24,876 --> 00:04:27,676 Speaker 1: love saying that at JFL, I've had they do. There's 73 00:04:27,676 --> 00:04:28,396 Speaker 1: a lot of out of. 74 00:04:28,316 --> 00:04:31,356 Speaker 2: The box thinkers over there. It was, It's a wonderful 75 00:04:31,356 --> 00:04:31,876 Speaker 2: place to work. 76 00:04:32,276 --> 00:04:34,156 Speaker 1: So what happens you have this idea? What happened? 77 00:04:34,356 --> 00:04:37,076 Speaker 2: Yeah, so we're sort of sitting around and bouncing ideas 78 00:04:38,196 --> 00:04:41,876 Speaker 2: off one another. I proposed this idea and and you know, 79 00:04:42,116 --> 00:04:45,636 Speaker 2: people sort of dismissed it immediately and then thought from 80 00:04:45,916 --> 00:04:48,436 Speaker 2: and realized, actually, you know, there might be something here. 81 00:04:49,116 --> 00:04:53,396 Speaker 2: So I actually got some some funds to start my 82 00:04:53,396 --> 00:04:56,316 Speaker 2: own research lab sort of within JPL, to to take 83 00:04:56,356 --> 00:04:58,916 Speaker 2: a look at this. I sort of cheekily called it 84 00:04:58,956 --> 00:05:01,196 Speaker 2: the self Cannibalizing Robot Project. 85 00:05:01,316 --> 00:05:03,036 Speaker 1: Because the spaceship is going to go to a moon 86 00:05:03,076 --> 00:05:05,996 Speaker 1: of Jupiter and then eat itself, burn itself up to 87 00:05:06,076 --> 00:05:08,156 Speaker 1: provide energy for its for its work. 88 00:05:08,356 --> 00:05:11,916 Speaker 2: Exactly, it's going to assume that super energy, dense exoskeleton 89 00:05:11,916 --> 00:05:13,076 Speaker 2: that it no longer needs. 90 00:05:13,156 --> 00:05:15,756 Speaker 1: Like, what does that actually look like in your mind? Like, 91 00:05:15,796 --> 00:05:18,796 Speaker 1: so this thing is there, it's on this moon of Jupiter. 92 00:05:19,236 --> 00:05:20,556 Speaker 1: What actually happens? 93 00:05:20,836 --> 00:05:22,796 Speaker 2: So to give you an example of how this might look, 94 00:05:22,836 --> 00:05:27,316 Speaker 2: So the spacecraft would have these aluminum landing legs. They 95 00:05:27,356 --> 00:05:29,556 Speaker 2: would land on the surface of this this icy moon, 96 00:05:30,316 --> 00:05:34,036 Speaker 2: and those legs would essentially cork screw into the ice 97 00:05:34,396 --> 00:05:38,356 Speaker 2: and once they're there, they undergo this process called activation, 98 00:05:38,476 --> 00:05:40,636 Speaker 2: where you have this large chunk of aluminium. It can 99 00:05:40,676 --> 00:05:44,036 Speaker 2: actually get broken down by water. It's basically a rusting process, 100 00:05:44,116 --> 00:05:48,196 Speaker 2: but accelerated, you know, like a million times. And the 101 00:05:48,236 --> 00:05:52,396 Speaker 2: process is exothermic as well. So as that aluminum starts exothermically, 102 00:05:52,396 --> 00:05:54,676 Speaker 2: it is releasing heat, reacting with that water, it's producing 103 00:05:54,716 --> 00:05:59,036 Speaker 2: hydrogen gas. These legs actually leave behind these little underground 104 00:05:59,156 --> 00:06:04,956 Speaker 2: caverns of hydrogen gas. So the leg detaches, it degrades, 105 00:06:04,956 --> 00:06:07,276 Speaker 2: it disintegrates the rusts, and then it leaves behind this 106 00:06:07,316 --> 00:06:11,236 Speaker 2: little cavern of hydrogen which then that robot or maybe 107 00:06:11,236 --> 00:06:14,876 Speaker 2: other robots can navigate over and tap into as a 108 00:06:14,916 --> 00:06:15,716 Speaker 2: refueling station. 109 00:06:16,756 --> 00:06:21,396 Speaker 1: So the landing legs decay, they leave behind hydrogen, and 110 00:06:21,436 --> 00:06:25,596 Speaker 1: that hydrogen is fuel that can then power the drill 111 00:06:25,636 --> 00:06:26,996 Speaker 1: that's going to go deep down into the. 112 00:06:26,916 --> 00:06:31,556 Speaker 2: Ice exactly, or communications or you know, imagery equipment. 113 00:06:31,916 --> 00:06:33,396 Speaker 1: So did it get anywhere? 114 00:06:34,596 --> 00:06:38,436 Speaker 2: So we ended up proving out some of the core 115 00:06:38,476 --> 00:06:42,796 Speaker 2: aspects of that technology. The specific program I was working on, 116 00:06:42,836 --> 00:06:45,596 Speaker 2: the funding was sort of called into question. You know, 117 00:06:45,636 --> 00:06:48,996 Speaker 2: these are big congressional It's basically a line item in 118 00:06:49,236 --> 00:06:52,756 Speaker 2: a congressional budget, and for whatever reason, that went away 119 00:06:52,796 --> 00:06:54,916 Speaker 2: and the interest waned. 120 00:06:55,156 --> 00:06:58,116 Speaker 1: And you leave when your project gets canceled. 121 00:06:59,036 --> 00:07:03,596 Speaker 2: So I, yes, I ended up leaving and going back 122 00:07:03,636 --> 00:07:08,276 Speaker 2: to school to further this concept. And I had found 123 00:07:08,516 --> 00:07:10,676 Speaker 2: a professor that I had worked with as an undergrad, 124 00:07:10,956 --> 00:07:15,556 Speaker 2: Doug Heart, who was really excited to take this technology 125 00:07:15,636 --> 00:07:17,836 Speaker 2: to the next level where we could actually use it 126 00:07:17,836 --> 00:07:18,836 Speaker 2: for Earth applications. 127 00:07:19,196 --> 00:07:23,716 Speaker 1: Huh. So use it for Earth applications is a big difference. 128 00:07:23,876 --> 00:07:26,356 Speaker 1: Like you had a spaceship that eats itself, which seems 129 00:07:26,396 --> 00:07:29,436 Speaker 1: like very elegant and very reasonable, right, because the core 130 00:07:29,476 --> 00:07:31,796 Speaker 1: idea is like, oh, it's really hard to get to Jupiter. 131 00:07:31,836 --> 00:07:35,196 Speaker 1: It's really hard to get you know, the marginal gram 132 00:07:35,236 --> 00:07:37,116 Speaker 1: of stuff to Jupiter. So if we can use the 133 00:07:37,116 --> 00:07:41,396 Speaker 1: spaceship itself, that's amazing. Like it's not obvious to me 134 00:07:41,436 --> 00:07:43,396 Speaker 1: that you'd be like, oh, the Jupiter think got canceled, 135 00:07:43,436 --> 00:07:45,196 Speaker 1: but let's use it on Earth, Like why is that 136 00:07:45,276 --> 00:07:47,636 Speaker 1: a why does that even come to mind? 137 00:07:47,716 --> 00:07:50,076 Speaker 2: So, for one, you know, I was really obsessed with 138 00:07:50,596 --> 00:07:54,676 Speaker 2: doing something Earth related. You know, I spent all my 139 00:07:54,796 --> 00:07:59,356 Speaker 2: time every waking second, thinking externally, thinking about the Solar System, 140 00:07:59,396 --> 00:08:03,596 Speaker 2: thinking about these other planets, life elsewhere, realizing how precious 141 00:08:03,796 --> 00:08:08,156 Speaker 2: and especial and interesting it is that we have life 142 00:08:08,156 --> 00:08:12,196 Speaker 2: on Earth now and uh, and wanting to do something 143 00:08:12,236 --> 00:08:14,556 Speaker 2: to preserve that just sort of a sense of like 144 00:08:14,796 --> 00:08:17,316 Speaker 2: cosmic you know, beauty if you if you will. 145 00:08:17,876 --> 00:08:20,596 Speaker 1: Like having looked at these other planets and moons, is like, boy, 146 00:08:20,956 --> 00:08:23,396 Speaker 1: that'd be a way harder place to live than Earth. 147 00:08:24,316 --> 00:08:25,796 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, you'r lived ex I was 148 00:08:25,836 --> 00:08:27,876 Speaker 2: living in la at the time, and like, there's so 149 00:08:27,956 --> 00:08:30,236 Speaker 2: much to point to and and and think. Was sort 150 00:08:30,236 --> 00:08:31,956 Speaker 2: of miserable at the place. You know, you're stuck in 151 00:08:32,036 --> 00:08:35,236 Speaker 2: traffic and you look over and someone's sort of screaming 152 00:08:35,276 --> 00:08:37,996 Speaker 2: to themselves in the car next next to you, and 153 00:08:37,996 --> 00:08:40,916 Speaker 2: and realizing, you know, existence on life is really hard. 154 00:08:40,956 --> 00:08:43,356 Speaker 2: But when you spend so much time looking at at 155 00:08:43,396 --> 00:08:46,796 Speaker 2: existence or the possibility exist on other planets, you realize, 156 00:08:46,876 --> 00:08:48,556 Speaker 2: you know, we we have it pretty good. And you know, 157 00:08:48,596 --> 00:08:52,436 Speaker 2: we've spent actually literally billions of years adapting to to 158 00:08:52,516 --> 00:08:55,836 Speaker 2: the gravity of Earth and to the pressures and to 159 00:08:55,916 --> 00:08:58,876 Speaker 2: the temperatures. And you know, why, why waste that? Why 160 00:08:58,916 --> 00:09:00,756 Speaker 2: waste that? So? 161 00:09:00,956 --> 00:09:05,756 Speaker 1: Okay, so you you start looking down instead of looking up, 162 00:09:06,316 --> 00:09:08,636 Speaker 1: Uh wha, what happens? 163 00:09:09,676 --> 00:09:14,116 Speaker 2: So I started thinking about, okay, where where else might 164 00:09:14,156 --> 00:09:21,076 Speaker 2: we find energy that's being underutilized on Earth? And I 165 00:09:21,836 --> 00:09:24,316 Speaker 2: realized that there was a lot of aluminum sitting around 166 00:09:24,396 --> 00:09:27,036 Speaker 2: doing nothing on Earth. You know, it's I looked into 167 00:09:27,076 --> 00:09:30,996 Speaker 2: aluminium recycling, realized that there's a bit of green washing 168 00:09:30,996 --> 00:09:32,756 Speaker 2: going on. We don't do as good of a job 169 00:09:32,796 --> 00:09:34,516 Speaker 2: as we think. And you know, it's just it's more 170 00:09:34,556 --> 00:09:38,476 Speaker 2: difficult to recycle aluminum than we're led to believe. 171 00:09:38,476 --> 00:09:41,876 Speaker 1: Often, even aluminum cans. I would think aluminum cans would 172 00:09:41,876 --> 00:09:47,116 Speaker 1: all be uniform and therefore relatively manageable to recycle. Not 173 00:09:47,196 --> 00:09:47,796 Speaker 1: so well. 174 00:09:47,836 --> 00:09:50,676 Speaker 2: We've created an interesting problem for ourselves there, because an 175 00:09:50,676 --> 00:09:54,276 Speaker 2: aluminum can is actually two different allays. There's the sort 176 00:09:54,276 --> 00:09:56,676 Speaker 2: of cap is a separate piece from the body, which 177 00:09:56,916 --> 00:10:00,396 Speaker 2: needs to be deep drawn, and so you need basically 178 00:10:00,476 --> 00:10:02,836 Speaker 2: different properties for the manufacturing. And you know, when you 179 00:10:02,876 --> 00:10:05,036 Speaker 2: open the can, you want it to sort of snap 180 00:10:05,116 --> 00:10:07,396 Speaker 2: open and be very satisfying. 181 00:10:07,436 --> 00:10:10,476 Speaker 1: That snap if it's destroying the world, that's an unfortunate 182 00:10:10,756 --> 00:10:12,156 Speaker 1: consequence exactly. 183 00:10:12,236 --> 00:10:13,916 Speaker 2: But with the body, you don't want that snap when 184 00:10:13,956 --> 00:10:16,756 Speaker 2: you're when you're manufacturing it. And so so they end 185 00:10:16,836 --> 00:10:18,596 Speaker 2: up using two different alloys, and so when you melt 186 00:10:18,636 --> 00:10:21,156 Speaker 2: it back down, you basically can only make one of those, 187 00:10:22,196 --> 00:10:26,316 Speaker 2: and you have to add some primary aluminum s virgin 188 00:10:26,356 --> 00:10:29,236 Speaker 2: aluminum in order to do that, because you have to 189 00:10:29,276 --> 00:10:31,316 Speaker 2: dilute out some of the impurities. All that to say, 190 00:10:31,596 --> 00:10:35,836 Speaker 2: it's it's a much harder problem than people think. And 191 00:10:35,876 --> 00:10:38,156 Speaker 2: what that means practically speaking is that a lot of 192 00:10:38,196 --> 00:10:41,436 Speaker 2: aluminum just ends up in landfills. You know, it ends 193 00:10:41,476 --> 00:10:44,236 Speaker 2: up getting exported to countries where manual labor is cheaper, 194 00:10:44,276 --> 00:10:46,876 Speaker 2: so that they can pick out those impurities by hand 195 00:10:47,756 --> 00:10:49,476 Speaker 2: sorting is not quite there yet. 196 00:10:49,956 --> 00:10:51,556 Speaker 1: Uh and uh and and so. 197 00:10:51,516 --> 00:10:53,956 Speaker 2: You end up with billions of tons of aluminum that 198 00:10:53,956 --> 00:10:55,716 Speaker 2: that is underutilized. 199 00:10:56,036 --> 00:10:59,556 Speaker 1: So let's let's talk about aluminum for a minute, because 200 00:10:59,596 --> 00:11:02,756 Speaker 1: it's really interesting, right, Like, there is this whole history 201 00:11:02,756 --> 00:11:05,636 Speaker 1: of aluminum. You know, if you go back a couple 202 00:11:05,716 --> 00:11:08,156 Speaker 1: hundred years at this point, right, it is used to 203 00:11:08,196 --> 00:11:13,276 Speaker 1: be this wildly precious metal because even though it's super 204 00:11:13,276 --> 00:11:17,916 Speaker 1: abundant in the in the earth, it is pretty much 205 00:11:17,956 --> 00:11:21,316 Speaker 1: always bound up with something else, usually oxygen. Right, there 206 00:11:21,396 --> 00:11:24,156 Speaker 1: was this moment that everybody writes about it, and I 207 00:11:24,196 --> 00:11:28,916 Speaker 1: hope it's true. Where like Napoleon the third right, the Napoleon. 208 00:11:28,956 --> 00:11:33,276 Speaker 1: After Napoleon supposedly like for his like B list guests 209 00:11:33,316 --> 00:11:35,636 Speaker 1: would give them plates of like silver and gold, but 210 00:11:35,716 --> 00:11:38,356 Speaker 1: the A list guests got the aluminum plates because there 211 00:11:38,436 --> 00:11:42,796 Speaker 1: was this wildly rare, beautiful thing. But then somebody figured 212 00:11:42,836 --> 00:11:47,076 Speaker 1: out how to make illuminum much more easily, right, yeah, yeah, exactly. 213 00:11:47,116 --> 00:11:49,716 Speaker 2: I mean, so if you think about like the ages 214 00:11:50,076 --> 00:11:53,076 Speaker 2: of society, right, there's like the Stone Age, and then 215 00:11:53,156 --> 00:11:56,316 Speaker 2: there's the Iron Age and the Bronze Age, and you 216 00:11:56,356 --> 00:11:59,516 Speaker 2: know the order in which those occurred are basically how 217 00:11:59,716 --> 00:12:03,716 Speaker 2: how close to that useful form are they found in nature? 218 00:12:04,036 --> 00:12:07,916 Speaker 2: So obviously the stone age triviual. The stone is the 219 00:12:07,956 --> 00:12:08,796 Speaker 2: stone is a stone. 220 00:12:09,236 --> 00:12:10,836 Speaker 1: Finding a rock is the easy part. 221 00:12:10,956 --> 00:12:13,116 Speaker 2: Yes, you put a rock on top of another rock. 222 00:12:13,476 --> 00:12:15,396 Speaker 2: You do that a couple more times, and you've got 223 00:12:15,636 --> 00:12:18,196 Speaker 2: you've got stonehengs, you've got you've got houses, you've got 224 00:12:18,236 --> 00:12:20,436 Speaker 2: you know, we were we were doing a good job 225 00:12:21,676 --> 00:12:26,676 Speaker 2: stacking stones. Slightly more complicated, you know, you have metals 226 00:12:26,956 --> 00:12:30,356 Speaker 2: that are more closely found in their elemental forms, so 227 00:12:30,396 --> 00:12:33,756 Speaker 2: things like copper. And then you have things that are 228 00:12:33,956 --> 00:12:38,636 Speaker 2: not found as a pure metal but can be easily reduced. 229 00:12:38,916 --> 00:12:40,996 Speaker 2: So something like iron, for example, is a little bit 230 00:12:40,996 --> 00:12:43,436 Speaker 2: easier where you can take the iron ore and you 231 00:12:43,476 --> 00:12:46,716 Speaker 2: can heat it up with some some carbon usually just 232 00:12:46,756 --> 00:12:50,756 Speaker 2: from some some charcoal, uh, and get a workable metal there. 233 00:12:51,116 --> 00:12:53,636 Speaker 1: But this is way more complex than stones. We've made 234 00:12:53,636 --> 00:12:57,116 Speaker 1: some technological progress there, yes, so big leap, maybe the biggest. 235 00:12:57,236 --> 00:12:57,996 Speaker 1: It's a huge leap. 236 00:12:58,396 --> 00:13:01,316 Speaker 2: Uh. And and then and then you get to aluminum, which, 237 00:13:01,956 --> 00:13:05,596 Speaker 2: despite being extremely abundant, is like you said, is not 238 00:13:05,756 --> 00:13:09,916 Speaker 2: found in its its base metal elemental form. It's found 239 00:13:09,956 --> 00:13:14,956 Speaker 2: as various aluminum oxides, and aluminum binds super tightly to 240 00:13:15,396 --> 00:13:19,556 Speaker 2: those oxygen atoms, and so to rip them off requires 241 00:13:19,636 --> 00:13:20,756 Speaker 2: a lot of energy. 242 00:13:20,596 --> 00:13:23,676 Speaker 1: Right, And as I understand it, because of that, aluminum 243 00:13:23,756 --> 00:13:27,436 Speaker 1: in its pure form was super rare until like well 244 00:13:27,476 --> 00:13:31,396 Speaker 1: into the nineteenth century, and then there was essentially this 245 00:13:31,636 --> 00:13:33,236 Speaker 1: technological breakthrough, right. 246 00:13:33,316 --> 00:13:38,356 Speaker 2: Yeah, in the eighteen hundreds, independently, an American scientist Hall 247 00:13:38,476 --> 00:13:42,636 Speaker 2: and the I believe a French scientist Hero both figured 248 00:13:42,636 --> 00:13:48,596 Speaker 2: out an electrochemical process that worked, and yeah, within the 249 00:13:48,636 --> 00:13:51,356 Speaker 2: span of a couple decades, you know, they were actually 250 00:13:51,436 --> 00:13:55,356 Speaker 2: able to start making kilograms and then tons of that material. 251 00:13:55,436 --> 00:13:59,836 Speaker 1: And Hall, by the way, started the Aluminum Company of America, right, 252 00:13:59,876 --> 00:14:02,996 Speaker 1: which is Alcoa, which is today steal a giant company. 253 00:14:03,036 --> 00:14:05,556 Speaker 1: Like the dude who figured it out started that company 254 00:14:05,636 --> 00:14:08,676 Speaker 1: is like, it's like the Edison, It's like the ge 255 00:14:08,916 --> 00:14:11,276 Speaker 1: of aluminum. Right, Like a guy figured it out and 256 00:14:11,316 --> 00:14:14,356 Speaker 1: started a company, and it's still a giant company exactly. 257 00:14:14,876 --> 00:14:20,156 Speaker 2: And the US government was so proud of this achievement 258 00:14:20,276 --> 00:14:24,916 Speaker 2: that they cast which at the time was I think 259 00:14:24,956 --> 00:14:28,556 Speaker 2: the largest piece of cast aluminum, which is like three kilograms. 260 00:14:28,996 --> 00:14:34,036 Speaker 2: They cast the point for the Washington Monument in Washington, 261 00:14:34,116 --> 00:14:34,316 Speaker 2: d C. 262 00:14:35,596 --> 00:14:38,356 Speaker 1: Because aluminum was so fine and so modern, and it 263 00:14:38,396 --> 00:14:41,236 Speaker 1: was like the symbol of the age. 264 00:14:41,636 --> 00:14:44,876 Speaker 2: Exactly, and it had all these unique properties that made 265 00:14:44,916 --> 00:14:48,836 Speaker 2: it so valuable for just a very wide range of applications. 266 00:14:50,196 --> 00:14:52,276 Speaker 1: So you start with the work in space. Then you 267 00:14:52,316 --> 00:14:55,476 Speaker 1: start looking at Earth and seeing all this underutilized aluminum, 268 00:14:55,556 --> 00:15:01,916 Speaker 1: which you recognize as this incredible potential source of energy. 269 00:15:02,116 --> 00:15:05,036 Speaker 1: Like where does that all go? Like where do you land? 270 00:15:05,316 --> 00:15:07,436 Speaker 2: So then I had to pivot a little bit and 271 00:15:07,516 --> 00:15:11,076 Speaker 2: look at a problem that you know, people care more 272 00:15:11,116 --> 00:15:14,876 Speaker 2: about from a financial sense, and that's just this general 273 00:15:14,916 --> 00:15:19,356 Speaker 2: idea of fuel moving energy around. And it turns out 274 00:15:19,396 --> 00:15:21,516 Speaker 2: aluminum is really good for that. 275 00:15:23,436 --> 00:15:26,676 Speaker 1: Because it is so energy dense. Weirdly, if you can 276 00:15:27,716 --> 00:15:30,796 Speaker 1: if you can figure out a relatively straightforward way of 277 00:15:30,796 --> 00:15:33,676 Speaker 1: getting the energy out of aluminum when and where you 278 00:15:33,716 --> 00:15:37,636 Speaker 1: want to, then suddenly aluminum itself is this incredible fuel 279 00:15:37,716 --> 00:15:39,876 Speaker 1: that we just don't think of as fuel exactly. 280 00:15:39,916 --> 00:15:42,036 Speaker 2: And you know, aluminum is actually the most abundant metal 281 00:15:42,156 --> 00:15:44,836 Speaker 2: in the Earth's crust, so it's not something we'd run 282 00:15:44,836 --> 00:15:45,116 Speaker 2: out of. 283 00:15:45,316 --> 00:15:47,596 Speaker 1: So I get the idea. Right. At some point, you 284 00:15:47,636 --> 00:15:49,836 Speaker 1: start a company and try and go from an idea 285 00:15:49,956 --> 00:15:54,636 Speaker 1: to you know, a thing in the world, where are 286 00:15:54,636 --> 00:15:56,316 Speaker 1: you now, Like what what are you doing? 287 00:15:56,836 --> 00:16:01,596 Speaker 2: So like countries like Germany or Japan, you know, most 288 00:16:01,636 --> 00:16:04,836 Speaker 2: of the energy that they consume is fossil based and 289 00:16:04,836 --> 00:16:09,636 Speaker 2: a lot of it is imported. And so because aluminum 290 00:16:09,636 --> 00:16:12,516 Speaker 2: has these properties where it's energy dense, the productions electrified, 291 00:16:12,596 --> 00:16:17,276 Speaker 2: it's super abundant, it's a great candidate for replacing fossil 292 00:16:17,276 --> 00:16:21,916 Speaker 2: fuels for those applications. And so that meant that we 293 00:16:21,996 --> 00:16:25,036 Speaker 2: needed to get the cost down of using this process. 294 00:16:25,836 --> 00:16:28,276 Speaker 2: You know, when you're essentially burning something, it needs to 295 00:16:28,316 --> 00:16:32,476 Speaker 2: be quite literally dirt cheap. And you know, we were 296 00:16:32,476 --> 00:16:36,836 Speaker 2: doing some interesting things with catalysts and promoters, and you know, 297 00:16:36,836 --> 00:16:39,316 Speaker 2: whenever you're doing industrial chemistry, sort of the devil's in 298 00:16:39,316 --> 00:16:43,396 Speaker 2: the details in terms of the cost drivers. And so 299 00:16:44,276 --> 00:16:46,916 Speaker 2: that gave me this new motivation to start, you know, 300 00:16:47,156 --> 00:16:49,356 Speaker 2: solving those correct problems, so to speak. 301 00:16:49,396 --> 00:16:54,356 Speaker 1: And that's what correct because they're correct in terms of 302 00:16:54,436 --> 00:16:58,196 Speaker 1: the market. Correct because somebody might actually pay you to 303 00:16:58,276 --> 00:17:00,876 Speaker 1: do the thing at scale. That's what makes it correct. 304 00:17:01,116 --> 00:17:03,716 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the it's usually the thing that's really hard 305 00:17:03,796 --> 00:17:06,356 Speaker 2: that standing in the way of someone actually using this 306 00:17:06,436 --> 00:17:08,156 Speaker 2: technology in a practical sense. 307 00:17:08,916 --> 00:17:12,356 Speaker 1: And in this instance, what is the thing that's really 308 00:17:12,396 --> 00:17:14,996 Speaker 1: hard that's standing in the way of someone using this technology. 309 00:17:15,116 --> 00:17:17,276 Speaker 2: It's always cost at the end of the day. 310 00:17:17,756 --> 00:17:22,356 Speaker 1: Technoeconomics, right, that term talking to sort of energy transition 311 00:17:23,276 --> 00:17:28,556 Speaker 1: people like technoeconomics is fundamentally what the energy transition is about. Right, 312 00:17:29,556 --> 00:17:35,476 Speaker 1: exactly where where are you now? What like specifically, do 313 00:17:35,556 --> 00:17:37,556 Speaker 1: you have a sort of first use case in mind? 314 00:17:37,996 --> 00:17:40,796 Speaker 2: Our first you know, beach head market so to speak, 315 00:17:41,396 --> 00:17:44,396 Speaker 2: is actually in the aluminum industry. It's a way of 316 00:17:44,716 --> 00:17:48,836 Speaker 2: enabling circularity within the illumin industry to solve this issue 317 00:17:48,916 --> 00:17:52,636 Speaker 2: that aluminum waste is not always efficiently handled. So what 318 00:17:52,756 --> 00:17:55,796 Speaker 2: we can do is we can take aluminum waste. We 319 00:17:55,836 --> 00:18:00,076 Speaker 2: can extract that energy to decarbonize some of the last 320 00:18:00,116 --> 00:18:05,076 Speaker 2: remaining truly fossil based processes in the illuminum industry. 321 00:18:05,196 --> 00:18:07,636 Speaker 1: So, just to be clear, this initial use you're using 322 00:18:07,756 --> 00:18:10,236 Speaker 1: the ideas to use scrap a loluminium as a source 323 00:18:10,276 --> 00:18:13,596 Speaker 1: of energy that will be used in making new. 324 00:18:13,476 --> 00:18:18,796 Speaker 2: Aluminium exactly, or just in making aluminum oxide, which can 325 00:18:18,836 --> 00:18:20,716 Speaker 2: also go and turn into other products as well. 326 00:18:21,156 --> 00:18:26,516 Speaker 1: So okay, So that is a weird clever place to start. 327 00:18:27,076 --> 00:18:29,516 Speaker 1: Are you actually doing that? Yeah? 328 00:18:29,556 --> 00:18:31,796 Speaker 2: So today we're doing it on a small scale, but 329 00:18:31,956 --> 00:18:34,556 Speaker 2: it is it's definitely at a subscale. So you know, 330 00:18:34,596 --> 00:18:39,156 Speaker 2: to give you a sense, these plants are producing aluminum 331 00:18:39,156 --> 00:18:42,676 Speaker 2: on such a scale that they need megawatts of thermal power, 332 00:18:43,156 --> 00:18:46,996 Speaker 2: we're still at killowat scale. We're maybe twenty to fifty 333 00:18:47,116 --> 00:18:49,956 Speaker 2: x away from really getting started in a meaningful way. 334 00:18:51,596 --> 00:18:55,356 Speaker 1: Okay, so that's the first one. Like what's the like 335 00:18:55,516 --> 00:18:57,796 Speaker 1: less niche one. That's a little bit farther. 336 00:18:57,556 --> 00:19:01,316 Speaker 2: Out right, So what's interesting, like on our global scales, 337 00:19:01,476 --> 00:19:04,836 Speaker 2: if we look at today's aluminum supply chain, because it 338 00:19:04,996 --> 00:19:08,076 Speaker 2: is their energy intensive to make, it's essentially an energy 339 00:19:08,076 --> 00:19:11,956 Speaker 2: supply chain. So we can look at at where what 340 00:19:12,036 --> 00:19:16,236 Speaker 2: countries are connected by these aluminum flows and and see 341 00:19:16,236 --> 00:19:18,756 Speaker 2: that oh, actually, you know, you could you can essentially 342 00:19:18,796 --> 00:19:21,276 Speaker 2: just expand this and then use it directly as an 343 00:19:21,356 --> 00:19:23,436 Speaker 2: energy flow in addition to just a material flow. 344 00:19:23,796 --> 00:19:27,436 Speaker 1: Right, So if you're if you're making aluminum in Iceland 345 00:19:27,636 --> 00:19:32,476 Speaker 1: and sending it to Germany, you're functionally sending energy from 346 00:19:32,556 --> 00:19:36,156 Speaker 1: the whatever geothermal vents in Iceland to Germany. You just 347 00:19:36,196 --> 00:19:38,956 Speaker 1: don't know it because you think you're sending aluminum cans. 348 00:19:38,996 --> 00:19:39,836 Speaker 1: Is that what you mean? 349 00:19:39,996 --> 00:19:43,636 Speaker 2: Yes, although in Iceland right they're using more hydro to 350 00:19:44,036 --> 00:19:47,516 Speaker 2: make the their aluminum, but similar ideas. So you know, 351 00:19:47,916 --> 00:19:50,876 Speaker 2: it's actually this closed loop process where you you essentially 352 00:19:50,996 --> 00:19:54,236 Speaker 2: recharge your aluminum oxide in a place like Iceland, you 353 00:19:54,356 --> 00:19:58,996 Speaker 2: then ship just that metal in these big billets to Germany. 354 00:19:59,316 --> 00:20:03,116 Speaker 2: You use our process to turn that into heat, uh, 355 00:20:03,156 --> 00:20:06,636 Speaker 2: and then you send that aluminum oxide essentially back on 356 00:20:06,676 --> 00:20:09,516 Speaker 2: the same boat maybe that that brought to in the 357 00:20:09,516 --> 00:20:13,236 Speaker 2: first place. You and you repeat the process. We're actually 358 00:20:13,236 --> 00:20:15,796 Speaker 2: calling it the world's first rechargeable fuel. 359 00:20:16,236 --> 00:20:18,436 Speaker 1: So you get so let's just talk through both how 360 00:20:18,476 --> 00:20:20,236 Speaker 1: you sort of recharge it, which is basically how you 361 00:20:20,276 --> 00:20:23,156 Speaker 1: make aluminum, and then how you get the the heat 362 00:20:23,236 --> 00:20:24,796 Speaker 1: out of it, right, how you get the energy out 363 00:20:24,796 --> 00:20:28,116 Speaker 1: of it. So just the basic like how you make aluminum, 364 00:20:28,116 --> 00:20:30,876 Speaker 1: you get box side out of the ground. What do 365 00:20:30,916 --> 00:20:32,116 Speaker 1: you do to make aluminum? 366 00:20:32,556 --> 00:20:36,396 Speaker 2: So you know, starting from box site, you heat it up. 367 00:20:37,196 --> 00:20:40,996 Speaker 2: You need to produce aluminum hydroxide, and then you bake 368 00:20:41,116 --> 00:20:44,036 Speaker 2: that and you drive off the water molecules and then 369 00:20:44,076 --> 00:20:48,116 Speaker 2: you're left with a particular grade of aluminum oxide that 370 00:20:48,276 --> 00:20:53,476 Speaker 2: then goes into your hall Hero process where they electrochemically 371 00:20:54,556 --> 00:20:57,916 Speaker 2: split the aluminum and the oxygen, and then you're just 372 00:20:57,996 --> 00:20:59,516 Speaker 2: left with that metallic aluminum. 373 00:21:00,276 --> 00:21:04,716 Speaker 1: Okay, just pure elemental aluminum yep. Okay, So now it 374 00:21:04,796 --> 00:21:08,636 Speaker 1: comes to you what do you do with it? 375 00:21:08,396 --> 00:21:11,876 Speaker 2: So it's proprietary, but it's a it's a surface treatment 376 00:21:11,996 --> 00:21:16,596 Speaker 2: to to the aluminum that that causes the aluminum to 377 00:21:16,676 --> 00:21:21,716 Speaker 2: break down along the micro structure when it's exposed to water. 378 00:21:22,356 --> 00:21:27,236 Speaker 1: Okay. And then so once you've applied your secret sauce 379 00:21:27,276 --> 00:21:30,316 Speaker 1: to the aluminum, what happens in this universe where you're 380 00:21:30,436 --> 00:21:32,836 Speaker 1: using it as a fuel source? Like what what happened? 381 00:21:33,236 --> 00:21:35,676 Speaker 2: So then you know, then you just have sort of 382 00:21:35,676 --> 00:21:39,236 Speaker 2: this general purpose fuel which you can use to replace 383 00:21:39,316 --> 00:21:41,956 Speaker 2: fossil fuels for all sorts of applications. Like I was 384 00:21:41,956 --> 00:21:45,436 Speaker 2: saying earlier, you split water when you let aluminum rusk, 385 00:21:45,956 --> 00:21:48,636 Speaker 2: and so then you have the rest of that energy 386 00:21:48,956 --> 00:21:52,076 Speaker 2: in the hydrogen. You can then just burn that hydrogen 387 00:21:52,156 --> 00:21:55,356 Speaker 2: and then that will just produce heat at you know, 388 00:21:55,836 --> 00:22:00,156 Speaker 2: way above a thousand degrees celsius. And you know, starting 389 00:22:00,196 --> 00:22:01,756 Speaker 2: with those high temperatures, that gives you a lot of 390 00:22:01,796 --> 00:22:07,636 Speaker 2: flexibility to produce steam that can run turbomachinery, but can 391 00:22:07,676 --> 00:22:10,756 Speaker 2: also replace fossil fuel for a lot of really high 392 00:22:10,756 --> 00:22:12,356 Speaker 2: temperature applications a. 393 00:22:12,356 --> 00:22:15,156 Speaker 1: Hard problem, right, Like steel people talk about sort of 394 00:22:15,236 --> 00:22:18,556 Speaker 1: decarbonizing steel and these sort of industrial processes that need 395 00:22:18,596 --> 00:22:21,876 Speaker 1: really high temperatures is a particularly hard problem that you 396 00:22:21,916 --> 00:22:23,716 Speaker 1: can't do with sort of standard and so this could 397 00:22:23,796 --> 00:22:25,196 Speaker 1: do that exactly. 398 00:22:25,436 --> 00:22:28,716 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're just talking high temperature heat and you know, 399 00:22:29,116 --> 00:22:33,876 Speaker 2: any any process that requires that would be a good candidate. 400 00:22:33,956 --> 00:22:35,876 Speaker 1: Like you want it at a steel plant in Germany 401 00:22:35,956 --> 00:22:37,836 Speaker 1: or something. You want it at a at a place 402 00:22:37,876 --> 00:22:39,836 Speaker 1: where they need a lot of heat and are importing 403 00:22:39,876 --> 00:22:42,156 Speaker 1: fossil fuels to get it, right now, Like that's the 404 00:22:42,356 --> 00:22:43,956 Speaker 1: sort of obvious use case. 405 00:22:43,756 --> 00:22:47,516 Speaker 2: We're using like local coal or you know. But yeah, exactly, 406 00:22:47,556 --> 00:22:48,276 Speaker 2: that's exactly right. 407 00:22:51,236 --> 00:23:06,196 Speaker 1: In a minute, why Peter's plan might not work. So 408 00:23:06,236 --> 00:23:08,676 Speaker 1: when you have you know, your first reactors out in 409 00:23:08,716 --> 00:23:12,556 Speaker 1: the real world doing real work, Like just help me 410 00:23:12,716 --> 00:23:14,676 Speaker 1: picture it, Like what is your first reactor out in 411 00:23:14,676 --> 00:23:15,756 Speaker 1: the world. What's it going to look like? 412 00:23:15,956 --> 00:23:18,716 Speaker 2: Yeah, so for the first you know, megawatt scale systems, 413 00:23:18,716 --> 00:23:21,116 Speaker 2: we're talking like a four foot by four foot by 414 00:23:21,116 --> 00:23:22,116 Speaker 2: four foot cube. 415 00:23:22,556 --> 00:23:25,556 Speaker 1: Okay, so so so quite small. That's the size of 416 00:23:25,596 --> 00:23:28,876 Speaker 1: the box. And then dumb question, is there like somebody 417 00:23:28,916 --> 00:23:33,636 Speaker 1: like putting just like scrap aluminum into the box, Like 418 00:23:33,756 --> 00:23:35,916 Speaker 1: is it like a guy shoveling coal on the railroad 419 00:23:35,956 --> 00:23:37,716 Speaker 1: two hundred years ago? Like what's going on? 420 00:23:38,556 --> 00:23:40,876 Speaker 2: It's not unlike that. Okay, let me let me put 421 00:23:40,876 --> 00:23:43,756 Speaker 2: it that way. And so there's there's conveyor belts and 422 00:23:44,356 --> 00:23:46,956 Speaker 2: sort of shredders and you know, the basically all the 423 00:23:46,996 --> 00:23:49,516 Speaker 2: standard equipment you would have in the in the waste 424 00:23:49,516 --> 00:23:53,516 Speaker 2: processing industry. And then they'll get to a form factor 425 00:23:53,556 --> 00:23:57,516 Speaker 2: the basically these pellets that then get automatically fed into 426 00:23:57,796 --> 00:23:58,276 Speaker 2: the box. 427 00:23:58,756 --> 00:23:59,996 Speaker 1: What happens inside the box. 428 00:24:00,676 --> 00:24:02,556 Speaker 2: So this is where a lot of interesting stuff happens. 429 00:24:02,676 --> 00:24:07,276 Speaker 2: This is where we actually are facilitating an aluminum water 430 00:24:07,636 --> 00:24:11,076 Speaker 2: chemical reaction. And so you're getting these big pieces of 431 00:24:11,116 --> 00:24:13,876 Speaker 2: aluminum that are going in that illuminum is getting broken 432 00:24:13,956 --> 00:24:19,236 Speaker 2: down at the microstructure by our activator compound and then 433 00:24:19,436 --> 00:24:23,076 Speaker 2: it's interacting with water. So you can imagine it's just 434 00:24:23,636 --> 00:24:29,876 Speaker 2: in its simplest form, it's just essentially a vessel where 435 00:24:29,916 --> 00:24:33,556 Speaker 2: you're mixing all these things together. But easier said than done. 436 00:24:33,356 --> 00:24:36,596 Speaker 1: Okay, and then what comes out of the box. 437 00:24:37,676 --> 00:24:42,596 Speaker 2: So the box will fundamentally have two to three outputs. 438 00:24:42,636 --> 00:24:46,996 Speaker 2: So the first two are the sort of the energy 439 00:24:47,076 --> 00:24:50,556 Speaker 2: the power outputs, and so depending on the customer, you know, 440 00:24:50,556 --> 00:24:54,476 Speaker 2: we're able to provide energy as heat or hydrogen gas 441 00:24:54,676 --> 00:24:57,716 Speaker 2: which can then be burned or some combination. And so 442 00:24:57,876 --> 00:25:00,716 Speaker 2: depending on that application, you basically have a pipe that 443 00:25:00,796 --> 00:25:04,996 Speaker 2: comes out that has this energy containing gas. 444 00:25:05,036 --> 00:25:08,196 Speaker 1: Hot air, hydrogen gas, whatever they want exactly. 445 00:25:08,636 --> 00:25:13,596 Speaker 2: And then the other is this refined aluminum hydroxide, which 446 00:25:13,596 --> 00:25:16,436 Speaker 2: again you know, these companies that make aluminum or use 447 00:25:16,476 --> 00:25:20,636 Speaker 2: aluminum at some point in the value stream, you know, 448 00:25:20,756 --> 00:25:24,316 Speaker 2: upstream of that they are sourcing this material, and so 449 00:25:24,476 --> 00:25:27,516 Speaker 2: this actually saves them having to go in mine additional 450 00:25:27,516 --> 00:25:29,516 Speaker 2: box side. So if you if you look at this 451 00:25:29,556 --> 00:25:33,356 Speaker 2: whole process through the lens of making aluminum oxide, it's 452 00:25:33,396 --> 00:25:36,796 Speaker 2: actually carbon negative. So you're getting this essentially the only 453 00:25:36,996 --> 00:25:40,556 Speaker 2: carbon free source of aluminum hydroxide there is in the world. 454 00:25:41,036 --> 00:25:42,116 Speaker 2: There's no other way to make this. 455 00:25:42,996 --> 00:25:44,276 Speaker 1: Why might it not work? 456 00:25:46,036 --> 00:25:49,196 Speaker 2: So, you know, we have very high confidence in our 457 00:25:49,316 --> 00:25:55,596 Speaker 2: go to market strategy, which is using aluminum waste to decarbonize. 458 00:25:55,836 --> 00:25:58,436 Speaker 2: You know, these very specific industries, but at some point 459 00:25:58,476 --> 00:26:00,236 Speaker 2: you do run out of aluminum waste. 460 00:26:00,676 --> 00:26:02,996 Speaker 1: You know. Well wait, so you're just stipulating that the 461 00:26:03,036 --> 00:26:06,996 Speaker 1: aluminum waste part will work at scale and the technoeconomics 462 00:26:07,036 --> 00:26:11,476 Speaker 1: will work. Like, might that part not work there? 463 00:26:11,476 --> 00:26:14,676 Speaker 2: Well, it's so cheap you have a huge buffer for 464 00:26:14,756 --> 00:26:17,396 Speaker 2: it to work even poorly, and it still makes sense. 465 00:26:17,916 --> 00:26:20,076 Speaker 1: Huh. Say more about that? 466 00:26:20,516 --> 00:26:23,676 Speaker 2: You know, like we're talking like really bottom bottom of 467 00:26:23,716 --> 00:26:26,996 Speaker 2: the barrel aluminum waste. So this is stuff that in 468 00:26:27,036 --> 00:26:30,556 Speaker 2: some cases companies are actually paying other peoples to take 469 00:26:30,596 --> 00:26:32,196 Speaker 2: away because it's too contaminated. 470 00:26:33,236 --> 00:26:38,156 Speaker 1: And so can you use that that absolutely garbage aluminum, 471 00:26:38,156 --> 00:26:42,676 Speaker 1: Like you can use whatever crappy recycled aluminium that's a 472 00:26:42,716 --> 00:26:45,276 Speaker 1: mess and that nobody wants. You can use that efficiently 473 00:26:45,356 --> 00:26:49,516 Speaker 1: and and it works for you. Yep, yep. 474 00:26:49,676 --> 00:26:52,636 Speaker 2: We're just our process eats aluminum and leaves everything else 475 00:26:52,716 --> 00:26:53,716 Speaker 2: pretty much untouched. 476 00:26:55,676 --> 00:26:57,676 Speaker 1: And is that the aluminum you're using now? 477 00:26:58,076 --> 00:27:01,436 Speaker 2: Yeah, So we're we're we're looking at those you know, 478 00:27:01,516 --> 00:27:04,676 Speaker 2: low quality feestock, and it's a lot like food and 479 00:27:04,716 --> 00:27:08,556 Speaker 2: beverage packaging and stuff that's that's contaminated or maybe it's 480 00:27:08,556 --> 00:27:13,156 Speaker 2: like mixed with other metals or plastics or organic contamination. 481 00:27:13,236 --> 00:27:15,116 Speaker 1: It's what I put out on the curb every week, 482 00:27:15,156 --> 00:27:17,796 Speaker 1: and I think there's no way that can actually be useful. 483 00:27:17,836 --> 00:27:20,156 Speaker 1: They are probably just putting it in the garbage. You're saying, 484 00:27:20,196 --> 00:27:23,596 Speaker 1: that's what you can use exactly. Yeah, and how big 485 00:27:23,676 --> 00:27:26,956 Speaker 1: is that? I mean, that's if that works, that's a lot, right, Like, 486 00:27:27,036 --> 00:27:29,516 Speaker 1: if you're just taking it as given that that's going 487 00:27:29,596 --> 00:27:31,996 Speaker 1: to work, that's a lot of success. If that works, right, 488 00:27:32,036 --> 00:27:36,756 Speaker 1: presumably that's a very large market for inputs for you. No, totally. 489 00:27:37,076 --> 00:27:40,116 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's it's a large market, but given 490 00:27:40,156 --> 00:27:46,116 Speaker 2: the scale of the you know, emissions globally, you know, 491 00:27:46,156 --> 00:27:48,476 Speaker 2: it's not really going to put a dent in that. 492 00:27:48,596 --> 00:27:50,476 Speaker 2: It's you know, it's it's probably a good outcome for 493 00:27:50,916 --> 00:27:53,796 Speaker 2: our company and for definitely our customers for using this technology, 494 00:27:54,156 --> 00:27:58,116 Speaker 2: but it's not the impact that I'm interested in specifically. 495 00:27:57,556 --> 00:27:59,876 Speaker 1: Like, it's not going to reduce the average temperature of 496 00:27:59,916 --> 00:28:01,196 Speaker 1: the Earth in one hundred years. 497 00:28:01,436 --> 00:28:03,796 Speaker 2: No, you know, it's going to have more positive impacts 498 00:28:03,876 --> 00:28:07,876 Speaker 2: than just carbon emissions reductions because you're also cleaning up 499 00:28:07,956 --> 00:28:11,196 Speaker 2: the mining industry around aluminium oxide production. 500 00:28:11,436 --> 00:28:15,916 Speaker 1: So this sort of recycled aluminum that nobody else wants, 501 00:28:16,396 --> 00:28:21,036 Speaker 1: is enough to supply the energy for this one piece 502 00:28:21,196 --> 00:28:24,076 Speaker 1: of the production of new aluminum? Is that I mean? 503 00:28:24,156 --> 00:28:26,316 Speaker 1: Is that basically what you're saying? Yep, exactly, But then 504 00:28:26,356 --> 00:28:27,916 Speaker 1: we have the whole rest of the world to worry 505 00:28:27,956 --> 00:28:31,916 Speaker 1: about exactly. Okay, so tell me about the whole rest 506 00:28:31,916 --> 00:28:35,196 Speaker 1: of the world. So, once you're using all the crappy 507 00:28:35,276 --> 00:28:38,756 Speaker 1: recycled aluminum that nobody else wants and decarbonizing this piece 508 00:28:38,796 --> 00:28:42,996 Speaker 1: of the process of making new aluminum, what's the what's 509 00:28:43,036 --> 00:28:43,596 Speaker 1: the next move? 510 00:28:44,076 --> 00:28:47,556 Speaker 2: Yeah, so the next move is to close the loop, 511 00:28:47,716 --> 00:28:51,916 Speaker 2: as we like to say. So that's actually recharging the 512 00:28:51,956 --> 00:28:56,356 Speaker 2: byproduct of our own reaction, doing that in a place 513 00:28:56,396 --> 00:28:59,596 Speaker 2: where you have abundant renewables, and then sending it to 514 00:28:59,636 --> 00:29:02,196 Speaker 2: a place where you do not have abundant renewables. And 515 00:29:02,276 --> 00:29:06,196 Speaker 2: at that scale, then you know there's no constraint on 516 00:29:06,196 --> 00:29:08,956 Speaker 2: the amount of aluminum that we have access to it. 517 00:29:09,196 --> 00:29:11,876 Speaker 2: It's literally the most abundant metal in the Earth's crust. 518 00:29:12,476 --> 00:29:15,796 Speaker 1: So in that universe you were, it's sort of end 519 00:29:15,796 --> 00:29:18,476 Speaker 1: to end. You're just in some clean way that doesn't 520 00:29:18,636 --> 00:29:23,276 Speaker 1: entirely exist yet. Turning box site into pure aluminum, which 521 00:29:23,436 --> 00:29:25,596 Speaker 1: then is your fuel, and you're sending it to wherever 522 00:29:25,636 --> 00:29:28,116 Speaker 1: they need it, and you're turning that aluminum into heat, 523 00:29:28,676 --> 00:29:31,956 Speaker 1: and then you're the product of that reaction. Is what 524 00:29:32,116 --> 00:29:36,196 Speaker 1: aluminum oxide that you're sending back to your clean plant 525 00:29:36,276 --> 00:29:38,316 Speaker 1: and turning it back into pure aluminum and just going 526 00:29:38,316 --> 00:29:41,396 Speaker 1: back and forth like that. That's the dream exactly, yep. 527 00:29:41,876 --> 00:29:44,716 Speaker 1: And on the technoeconomic side, maybe somebody will come up 528 00:29:44,716 --> 00:29:47,876 Speaker 1: with something cheaper or easier or something, right. I mean, 529 00:29:47,876 --> 00:29:51,276 Speaker 1: you're not just competing against what exists today. You're competing 530 00:29:51,276 --> 00:29:54,076 Speaker 1: against all these other smart people who are trying ultimately 531 00:29:54,116 --> 00:29:55,796 Speaker 1: to solve the same problem you're trying to solve, but 532 00:29:55,836 --> 00:29:56,836 Speaker 1: in different ways. Right. 533 00:29:56,916 --> 00:29:59,076 Speaker 2: You know, we're not necessarily too worried about that. In 534 00:29:59,076 --> 00:30:02,236 Speaker 2: some ways, we will need multiple solutions, so you need 535 00:30:02,276 --> 00:30:05,516 Speaker 2: to get like maybe ten kilograms of aluminum reacting at once. 536 00:30:05,636 --> 00:30:09,116 Speaker 2: Easier said than done. But you're not talking massive systems, 537 00:30:09,236 --> 00:30:12,516 Speaker 2: and what that means is you can modularize, so you 538 00:30:12,556 --> 00:30:14,836 Speaker 2: can start rolling this out. So we really only have 539 00:30:14,916 --> 00:30:18,436 Speaker 2: to do a fifty x scale up really well, and 540 00:30:18,476 --> 00:30:21,516 Speaker 2: then we can mass produce what we call our aluminum 541 00:30:21,596 --> 00:30:22,436 Speaker 2: water reactors. 542 00:30:23,436 --> 00:30:25,316 Speaker 1: So it doesn't have to be that big. You just 543 00:30:25,316 --> 00:30:27,916 Speaker 1: get a kind of little reactor and then you put 544 00:30:27,956 --> 00:30:29,676 Speaker 1: twenty of them right next to each other. Is that 545 00:30:29,676 --> 00:30:30,676 Speaker 1: what exactly? 546 00:30:30,916 --> 00:30:33,996 Speaker 2: Exactly, so you don't take on that scale risk all 547 00:30:34,036 --> 00:30:37,476 Speaker 2: at once. So that's you know, you know again like 548 00:30:37,956 --> 00:30:41,076 Speaker 2: scaling up fifty x is also a major challenge. 549 00:30:40,716 --> 00:30:41,596 Speaker 1: And non trivial. 550 00:30:41,676 --> 00:30:45,236 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, we we have a big team 551 00:30:45,276 --> 00:30:49,636 Speaker 2: of really smart people working on it. But you know what, 552 00:30:49,916 --> 00:30:52,636 Speaker 2: you think, thinking long term, there's there's kind of a 553 00:30:52,676 --> 00:30:58,356 Speaker 2: timing risk, I would say, where as we scale these technologies, 554 00:30:58,436 --> 00:31:02,276 Speaker 2: you know, we need people to be ready to use them. 555 00:31:02,636 --> 00:31:07,076 Speaker 2: And while you know this early, these early adopters in 556 00:31:07,116 --> 00:31:10,436 Speaker 2: the aluminum industry, they're ready to use this tech now roughly, 557 00:31:11,276 --> 00:31:14,436 Speaker 2: you know, as we go to decarbonized industrial heat more broadly, 558 00:31:15,476 --> 00:31:18,236 Speaker 2: you know, they may not be ready to commit to 559 00:31:18,476 --> 00:31:21,836 Speaker 2: a new technology, unproven technology with you know, supply chain 560 00:31:21,916 --> 00:31:24,276 Speaker 2: risk and basically the things that are standing in the 561 00:31:24,316 --> 00:31:27,436 Speaker 2: way of them moving to any other technology. 562 00:31:27,836 --> 00:31:31,596 Speaker 1: Well, and they are industries that operate at massive scale, right, 563 00:31:31,636 --> 00:31:34,236 Speaker 1: and you're like kind of doing this little thing and 564 00:31:34,276 --> 00:31:37,396 Speaker 1: trying to scale it up, and it seems it seems 565 00:31:37,396 --> 00:31:40,116 Speaker 1: like there's like a chasm you have to leap in 566 00:31:40,196 --> 00:31:42,916 Speaker 1: some way to get from where you are to like, 567 00:31:44,076 --> 00:31:47,236 Speaker 1: you know, decarbonizing a steel plant or something. 568 00:31:47,316 --> 00:31:49,476 Speaker 2: And you know, we're hedging that risk by not starting 569 00:31:49,756 --> 00:31:54,156 Speaker 2: there and starting with the folks that have a reasonably 570 00:31:54,196 --> 00:31:58,076 Speaker 2: high adoption readiness level that is commensurate with our technology 571 00:31:58,076 --> 00:31:58,796 Speaker 2: readiness level. 572 00:31:59,796 --> 00:32:02,436 Speaker 1: So I don't want to end the main part of 573 00:32:02,436 --> 00:32:04,516 Speaker 1: the interview on the like why it might not work 574 00:32:04,596 --> 00:32:08,236 Speaker 1: as as kind of a tenuated bomber. So like when 575 00:32:08,276 --> 00:32:12,356 Speaker 1: you think happy thoughts about the world ten years from now, 576 00:32:13,196 --> 00:32:14,596 Speaker 1: well like what does it look like and what is 577 00:32:14,636 --> 00:32:15,156 Speaker 1: your place in it? 578 00:32:15,236 --> 00:32:20,436 Speaker 2: Lookally, you know, you look at replacing the fossil fuel 579 00:32:20,436 --> 00:32:24,916 Speaker 2: supply chain, which has been developed and optimized and obsessed 580 00:32:24,916 --> 00:32:29,756 Speaker 2: over for you know, basically one hundred years and more. 581 00:32:30,676 --> 00:32:33,196 Speaker 2: You know, you can't just replace all of that with 582 00:32:33,356 --> 00:32:38,556 Speaker 2: one thing. This is a sort of everyone problem. And 583 00:32:38,556 --> 00:32:41,116 Speaker 2: and yeah, you know we I love looking at this. 584 00:32:41,516 --> 00:32:45,636 Speaker 2: If you google aluminum supply chain, probably a map comes 585 00:32:45,676 --> 00:32:48,956 Speaker 2: up showing these these lines going from places today with 586 00:32:49,076 --> 00:32:51,916 Speaker 2: lots of renewables, and you know, I want to see 587 00:32:51,916 --> 00:32:54,476 Speaker 2: that turned into the next energy supply chain. That's that's 588 00:32:54,516 --> 00:32:55,196 Speaker 2: what excites me. 589 00:32:59,316 --> 00:33:10,676 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a minute with the lightning ground Okay, 590 00:33:10,716 --> 00:33:14,396 Speaker 1: I want to finish with the lightning round it right 591 00:33:14,436 --> 00:33:18,596 Speaker 1: that you sort of remote control drove the Curiosity rover 592 00:33:18,676 --> 00:33:21,236 Speaker 1: on Mars. Yes, not just me. 593 00:33:21,316 --> 00:33:24,436 Speaker 2: I was on the team that did operations for Curiosity, 594 00:33:24,476 --> 00:33:27,676 Speaker 2: and I was working on the arms specifically. It takes 595 00:33:27,676 --> 00:33:30,356 Speaker 2: about one hundred people every single day to operate this thing. 596 00:33:31,956 --> 00:33:34,436 Speaker 1: Oh so you like made the arm move and pick 597 00:33:34,516 --> 00:33:34,996 Speaker 1: things up. 598 00:33:35,716 --> 00:33:37,196 Speaker 2: A part of the team that did that. But yeah, 599 00:33:37,236 --> 00:33:37,716 Speaker 2: pretty much. 600 00:33:39,116 --> 00:33:41,156 Speaker 1: What's your favorite part of Mars. 601 00:33:42,396 --> 00:33:44,956 Speaker 2: Well, there's really only one interesting part of ours, in 602 00:33:44,996 --> 00:33:47,876 Speaker 2: my opinion, which is the mountain. 603 00:33:48,236 --> 00:33:51,236 Speaker 1: Is there one mountain? It's not a mountain on Mars. 604 00:33:51,276 --> 00:33:52,516 Speaker 1: It's the mountain on Mars. 605 00:33:52,916 --> 00:33:56,716 Speaker 2: It's it's like a bulge in the planet that you know, 606 00:33:56,756 --> 00:33:59,676 Speaker 2: you could call a mountain. But so if we agree 607 00:33:59,676 --> 00:34:02,076 Speaker 2: that that's a mountain, it's actually the largest mountain in 608 00:34:02,236 --> 00:34:03,036 Speaker 2: the Solar System. 609 00:34:03,636 --> 00:34:05,076 Speaker 1: What's interesting too about it. 610 00:34:05,476 --> 00:34:07,876 Speaker 2: The thing that was cool is that you can basically, 611 00:34:07,916 --> 00:34:09,916 Speaker 2: as you drive up sort of get a hiss a 612 00:34:09,996 --> 00:34:14,116 Speaker 2: geological history of Mars as you sample different rocks, and 613 00:34:14,516 --> 00:34:17,396 Speaker 2: you know, Curiosity was basically just driving up this thing 614 00:34:17,756 --> 00:34:18,436 Speaker 2: until it dies. 615 00:34:19,316 --> 00:34:22,596 Speaker 1: Huh, what's your second favorite metal? 616 00:34:26,916 --> 00:34:29,636 Speaker 2: Probably I would have to say iron, you know, just 617 00:34:29,836 --> 00:34:31,236 Speaker 2: from from its importance. 618 00:34:33,076 --> 00:34:37,116 Speaker 1: There's a whole age. Yeah, I actually talked to you 619 00:34:37,156 --> 00:34:40,916 Speaker 1: probably cross paths with Mateo Hotamo form energy. Right. He 620 00:34:40,996 --> 00:34:44,836 Speaker 1: is using iron to make batteries, and it's, you know, 621 00:34:44,876 --> 00:34:47,396 Speaker 1: in a way somewhat analogous to what you're doing, right, 622 00:34:47,476 --> 00:34:50,996 Speaker 1: Like their batteries are essentially iron that is rusting and 623 00:34:51,196 --> 00:34:55,316 Speaker 1: unrusting in the way that you're rusting and unrusting aluminum. 624 00:34:54,876 --> 00:34:58,516 Speaker 2: Right, yeah, exactly, and you know they're using a cheaper material, 625 00:34:58,556 --> 00:35:01,356 Speaker 2: but it's it's also less energy dense, so it's really. 626 00:35:01,236 --> 00:35:03,876 Speaker 1: Wildly less right, Like their play is like we don't 627 00:35:03,876 --> 00:35:06,716 Speaker 1: care about energy debt. They can be gigantic out of 628 00:35:06,716 --> 00:35:07,076 Speaker 1: the desert. 629 00:35:07,116 --> 00:35:08,916 Speaker 2: They're just going for costs and so it's it's amazing 630 00:35:08,916 --> 00:35:10,436 Speaker 2: for first stationary energy. 631 00:35:10,516 --> 00:35:14,436 Speaker 1: I think what they're doing is school. I mean it's complementary, right, 632 00:35:14,476 --> 00:35:16,516 Speaker 1: Like they are not going to generate heat to power 633 00:35:16,836 --> 00:35:19,476 Speaker 1: a steel mill and you're not going to be doing 634 00:35:19,716 --> 00:35:21,916 Speaker 1: energy storage at utility scale, right. 635 00:35:21,836 --> 00:35:24,916 Speaker 2: So yeah, and actually you know, we it's very complementary 636 00:35:24,916 --> 00:35:28,476 Speaker 2: in that in order to do truly carbon free aluminum 637 00:35:28,516 --> 00:35:31,116 Speaker 2: smelting with renewables like solar and wind, you need to 638 00:35:31,116 --> 00:35:34,436 Speaker 2: solve the intermittency issue because these pol hero cells run 639 00:35:34,476 --> 00:35:38,516 Speaker 2: really hot, so you know, solar wind plus like a 640 00:35:38,516 --> 00:35:42,316 Speaker 2: form energy a facility could could be an interesting way 641 00:35:42,356 --> 00:35:45,076 Speaker 2: to enable more aluminum production. 642 00:35:45,716 --> 00:35:48,116 Speaker 1: Is there some engineer, either living or from history, who 643 00:35:48,116 --> 00:35:49,356 Speaker 1: you think everybody should know about? 644 00:35:50,756 --> 00:35:53,676 Speaker 2: I would say I would say people these days don't 645 00:35:53,676 --> 00:35:58,036 Speaker 2: give enough credit to the engineers from the Apollo era 646 00:35:58,076 --> 00:36:01,796 Speaker 2: of NASA, where you know, we're like obsessing over going 647 00:36:01,836 --> 00:36:03,356 Speaker 2: back to the Moon and like, you know, we think 648 00:36:03,396 --> 00:36:05,636 Speaker 2: what we're doing now is impressive, like you know, sending 649 00:36:06,356 --> 00:36:09,316 Speaker 2: people into space like what we were doing back then 650 00:36:09,396 --> 00:36:11,756 Speaker 2: with the tools that they had. 651 00:36:12,076 --> 00:36:15,796 Speaker 1: They did it basically on an iPhone right yeah wait 652 00:36:16,356 --> 00:36:17,636 Speaker 1: wait less yeah exactly. 653 00:36:17,676 --> 00:36:19,716 Speaker 2: I just I just think that's insane and that and 654 00:36:19,756 --> 00:36:22,436 Speaker 2: that it worked. Uh, you know we got people back 655 00:36:23,036 --> 00:36:23,596 Speaker 2: from the Moon. 656 00:36:23,916 --> 00:36:25,996 Speaker 1: Yeah, getting them there was the easy part. Getting them 657 00:36:26,036 --> 00:36:26,756 Speaker 1: back was hard. 658 00:36:26,956 --> 00:36:29,956 Speaker 2: Yeah. 659 00:36:30,796 --> 00:36:34,396 Speaker 1: Peter Goddard is the co founder and CEO of Found Energy. 660 00:36:35,236 --> 00:36:38,516 Speaker 1: Today's show was produced by Gabriel Hunter Chang. It was 661 00:36:38,796 --> 00:36:42,236 Speaker 1: edited by Lyddy Jean Kott and engineered by Sarah Bruguer. 662 00:36:42,716 --> 00:36:45,916 Speaker 1: You can email us at problem at Pushkin dot fm. 663 00:36:46,476 --> 00:36:48,836 Speaker 1: I'm Jacob Goldstein and we'll be back next week with 664 00:36:48,876 --> 00:37:01,436 Speaker 1: another episode of What's Your Problem.