WEBVTT - Bonus: In Conversation with Lori Gottlieb 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:11.800 Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. I'm 0:00:11.880 --> 0:00:14.880 Danny Shapiro and this is a special bonus episode of 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:19.840 Family Secrets. Today you'll be hearing a conversation between myself 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:24.680 and Lori Gottlieb, therapist, speaker, and New York Times best 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:27.720 selling author of the recent book Maybe you Should talk 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:30.520 to someone. I had the chance to talk with Lorie 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:34.160 about the emotional toll of secrets. I hope you'll enjoy 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:38.120 this bonus episode. In the meantime, mark your calendars for 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:42.440 the season two launch of Family Secrets on Monday, August nine. 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:50.360 I just want to have a conversation with you about 0:00:51.120 --> 0:00:54.040 everything you understand about secrets and sort of what you 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:59.000 experience in your office in that way, and you know, 0:00:59.080 --> 0:01:02.720 just what you've learned about humanity the way that, um, 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:05.200 how do we hold secrets as we walk through life? 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:08.960 And what does these secrets due to us? Right right? 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:12.640 That's such a that's such a great question. I think 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:17.400 so complicated, because we all have secrets. I think even 0:01:17.560 --> 0:01:20.880 those of us who believe that it's best to not 0:01:21.080 --> 0:01:23.440 keep these kinds of secrets, I think we still have 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:26.120 them anyway. And I think that the reason that we 0:01:26.200 --> 0:01:29.400 keep secrets is because partly it's you know, it's Carl 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:34.160 June called secret psychic poison because they're so corrosive, and 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:37.119 also they're they're often all about shame, but I think 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:39.800 they're also about this question of, you know, will I 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:44.640 do more harm by weathers to myself or to others 0:01:44.760 --> 0:01:48.280 by revealing the secret? Do we just let sleeping dogs lie? 0:01:48.520 --> 0:01:50.600 Is that? Is that a better? You know, that's one 0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:53.400 of the questions I get all the time these days, 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:57.640 is um, just would it have been better to not know? 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:00.680 Or you know, are there some secret it's that are 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:05.680 good to keep? A great example of that is, UM, 0:02:05.720 --> 0:02:10.680 something I see not infrequently in therapy, which is someone 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:15.079 comes in and they say, Um, you know, I had 0:02:15.080 --> 0:02:18.000 this affair, but I realized by having this affair that 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:21.840 I really wanted to be married to my to my partner. 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:26.480 And if I reveal that I had this fair he 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:29.280 or she will leave me, or or that here she 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:31.799 will never look at me the same way or never 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:34.640 trust me in the same way, or it will it 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:40.600 will paint our marriage. Um. And you know there's that 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:43.760 question of if this person never finds out, if my 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:48.840 partner never finds out, Um, wouldn't it be so much better? 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:55.119 Why should I put my spouse through this trauma um 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:56.800 and all of this, you know, sort of like the 0:02:56.840 --> 0:03:01.040 harrowing uh, you know, a most a roller coaster that's 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:04.200 going to follow if I revealed this thing that meant 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:06.320 nothing to me and that and that actually made me 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:09.160 realize how much I want to be married to this person? 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:12.200 And where do you come out on that or does 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:16.920 it depend on the person? I think it depends on 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:21.000 the person. But I also feel really strongly that the 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:25.519 truth comes out. I feel like we think we can 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:29.680 keep secrets, but in this day and age, you can't. 0:03:30.240 --> 0:03:32.239 I mean, even before this day and age, it was 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:34.880 hard to keep those kinds of secret. Things surface, But 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:38.480 now you know your pernan will find a text and 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:40.680 be like, what was that from ten years? You know, 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:43.280 and then the affair is right there and why didn't? 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:45.440 Why did you? You've been holding the secret for years 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:48.840 and you never told me. It's even worse because then 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:53.320 there's a betrayal layered on top of the betrayal, right, 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:58.640 and and I think there's also aside from the practical 0:03:58.720 --> 0:04:02.680 issue of that, they're really it's very difficult in this 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:05.400 day and age to keep a secret. Do you think 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:10.720 that there's something subtler and more invisible than that that 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:17.039 secrets do? I mean? I know in my story and 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:20.640 you know, growing up being a secret and hearing so 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:24.400 many stories of other people who have grown up not 0:04:24.520 --> 0:04:27.440 knowing the truth of their identity, not knowing the truth 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:31.400 of their paternity or their maternity. There was those were 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:34.600 secrets that were kept with everyone keeping them really believing 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:39.159 that it was iron clad impossible for those secrets to 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:43.479 come out, and at the time it was iron clad impossible, 0:04:43.880 --> 0:04:48.440 and yet there was a residue or a kind of 0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:52.200 leakage that those secrets would leave on you know, the 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:55.440 child or you know this sense that so many people 0:04:55.480 --> 0:04:59.120 I've talked to have said versions of I always knew there. 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:04.200 Something wasn't right, something didn't add up. So even with 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:07.800 a lack of absolute knowledge of what that secret is, 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:14.040 it was impacting everyone around it. That's such an important 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:18.440 point because we have an intuitive sense when something feels off, 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:24.080 and the person keeping the secret also is impacted by 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:26.320 that secret. So in the case of the affair, that 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:31.720 person still holds that experience and they're going to be 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:34.920 different and changed because of it. It's not like things 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:37.839 can just go back to normal. You can't just pretend 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:41.440 it didn't happen. And so even if you think you can, 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:44.760 and so your partner is going to pick up on that. 0:05:45.440 --> 0:05:48.720 And even with little kids, I think intuitively we are 0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:51.680 hardwired to kind of be able to suss out what 0:05:51.839 --> 0:05:54.279 is real and what is not real. That's why they 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:56.920 always say, like parents things that they can kind of 0:05:57.360 --> 0:06:00.839 pretend certain things around their kids. Their kids know and way, 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:05.080 whether it's something like what happened with you, um, you know, 0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:08.240 or I was just talking to um someone in therapy 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:11.960 the other day and um, somebody and her family had 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:15.440 mental illness and they were saying, no, no, no, it's 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:18.080 this person's you know, it's a medical it's like this. 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:20.479 They don't want to say specifically what she was told 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:22.800 because it's just specific, but you know she was told 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:25.320 it was something else, and even as a four year old, 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:27.920 you know, she was like, no, that doesn't seem right 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:32.960 and and and and that was the worst part, was it. 0:06:32.960 --> 0:06:35.960 It was that enough, this is happening around her, but 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:38.880 the secret made it worse. The secret made her feel crazy. 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:42.000 It made her feel like, well, wait, I trust these adults, 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:46.520 but at the same time something it feels like the barometer, 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:49.800 something is like telling me that this isn't right, And 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:52.719 then you have that internal thing about am I crazy? 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:57.039 Can I trust myself? Um? It really it really affects 0:06:57.040 --> 0:07:00.600 the way that you navigate yourself through the world and 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:02.920 think about you know, what is real and what is 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:06.479 not real exactly. I mean there's almost an element of 0:07:06.480 --> 0:07:11.000 gaslighting to it, like just a sense of this doesn't 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:14.080 make sense to me, or I'm feeling these feelings that 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:17.679 I don't know why. And I think, particularly in children, 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:21.280 but maybe in adults too, there's a way in which 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:25.120 when we can't really make things add up for ourselves 0:07:25.160 --> 0:07:27.880 what we know something's not quite right, we tend to 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:31.240 turn those feelings against ourselves because we don't know what 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:34.280 else to do with them, that's right. We either say, well, 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:38.320 something's wrong with me, right, Um, this feeling of uneasiness 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:41.640 have to do with me, as opposed to it has 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:44.640 to do with something out there that is really making 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:47.120 me uneasy. But we but when you were saying, no, 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:49.840 that's not what's making me uneasy. There's nothing to see here. 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:53.040 I don't know what you're talking about. The other night, 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:56.960 during a Q and a. At a reading of mine. UM, 0:07:57.000 --> 0:08:02.960 someone in the audience asked me whether I think, of course, 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:07.000 by having become this sort of accidental expert on secrets, UM, 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:10.200 whether I think that there's ever a good reason to 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:15.360 keep a secret. How would you answer that question? On 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:19.400 the surface, I would say no, because I think that 0:08:19.440 --> 0:08:22.360 the truth is liberating for everybody, even if the truth 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:26.520 is painful, even if the truth is hard. I think 0:08:26.560 --> 0:08:29.760 that again, we have a sense that something's off and 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:33.200 we don't know the truth. UM, there's always a sense 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:38.959 of weight, just something feels wrong. UM. Somebody wrote into 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:43.080 my Your Therapist column the other day and wrote that 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:51.000 this person was, I think, found there biological mother, and 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:55.000 then found the biological father, and then had a really 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:58.280 beautiful relationship with the biological father, and then found out, 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:00.760 after I think a couple of decades of having this 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:04.000 beautiful relationship with him, that she took a DNA test 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:06.840 and found out that he's not actually her biological father, 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:11.040 that the mother had given misinformation about who her biological 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:15.800 father was. And and potentially because her guess is that 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:18.720 maybe it was because maybe the biological father, maybe it 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:20.839 was a rape, maybe it was you know who knows. 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:23.559 She doesn't know. The mother is dead now, so she 0:09:23.600 --> 0:09:27.040 doesn't know, UM. And so this person is now eighty 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:31.360 the father, and she was wondering, you know, do I 0:09:31.440 --> 0:09:34.839 do I tell him that he's not my biological father? 0:09:35.080 --> 0:09:38.600 And then if I do, do I what about the 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:41.720 rest of the family and will they I feel like 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:44.680 they spent all this emotional energy and welcomed me into 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:46.600 the family and did all these things, but I'm not 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:53.080 actually this person's a biological daughter. Um. And you know, 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:55.160 in those cases, a lot of times, when people are 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:59.800 you know, old, and they might die soon, people re 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:02.840 really wonder about whether the secret would be more disruptive 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:06.319 to the person, whether it would kind of disrupt their peace. 0:10:07.200 --> 0:10:09.000 And I used to think differently about that. I used 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:13.040 to think maybe it would, But now I think, o't 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:16.600 bet that this person would welcome the truth and that 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:19.679 he would still love her just as much. I don't 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:22.160 think that it would be like, you know, a hallmark moment, 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:27.720 because I think I'm sure it would be very discombobulating. Well, 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:30.240 it takes it takes time, right like it. I think 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:33.240 that that's one of the thoughts I'm having about someone 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:38.680 who's elderly and that's I've heard similar stories. Um, as 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:42.000 I've been hearing so many people's stories. I've heard very similar, 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:45.120 a very similar story of a woman who discovered that 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:47.600 her dad who raised her was not her biological father, 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:50.240 and uh, you know, he's in his eighties and she 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:54.240 said it would break him. And so she now, because 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:56.559 of the decision that she's made to hold this secret, 0:10:56.920 --> 0:11:01.440 has put herself in the position of being a secret keeper, right, 0:11:02.160 --> 0:11:05.480 And and it's a painful thing to be a secret 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:08.040 keeper when you I think it's probably a painful thing 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:11.600 to be a secret keeper full stop, but it certainly 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:15.559 is if you sort of inherit a story or find 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:18.319 something out and then feel that you have to keep 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:21.920 the secret in order not to hurt other people. Yeah. 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:26.200 The thing about revealing secrets, especially later on after a 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:29.360 lot has happened, is that you kind of have to 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:32.760 rewrite the past in a different way. All of a sudden, 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:37.199 the memories that you have look different knowing that there 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:40.400 was this other thing going on at the same time. 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:44.560 An example of that is like somebody finds out that 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:47.560 their partner was having an affair and they were and 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:50.200 their memory was we were on this beautiful trip to Rome, 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:52.720 and you know, it was really romantic and at the 0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:56.880 same time you were having this affair with this other person. 0:11:56.960 --> 0:12:00.160 And now my memories of you know, that year or 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:04.319 that trip or that experience is so different because this 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:08.400 whole other thing was going on, and now you've robbed 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:12.040 me of that memory that's I've heard like that. So 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:16.360 there is this Any time there's the decision made to 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:23.760 UM to reveal a secret, there is a reckoning that happens, 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:30.880 and that is unavoidable and unavoidably painful. So I imagine 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:35.760 that you probably encounter a lot of people who have 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:41.560 resistance to going through whatever that unknown dark tunnel to 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:44.040 the other side is going to be. You know, it's 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:46.280 it's fine to intellectually know on the other side there's 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:51.040 liberation UM, which I certainly believe and know and know 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:54.160 in my own case to very much be true. But 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:57.839 there's the there's the going through what it's going to 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:01.800 take to get there, the both hurting another person or 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:05.199 thinking that you're going to hurt another person and wounding 0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:08.520 a relationship that's important, whether it's a father child relationship 0:13:08.679 --> 0:13:13.400 or its partners, and having somehow the faith that and 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:15.760 the belief that on the other side of that that 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:18.160 is actually going to be better, that everyone is going 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:21.000 to be better for it. I think there generally is 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:23.840 relief when you get through that tunnel that on the 0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:26.160 other side, what's waiting for you with some kind of relief. 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:30.120 If you're the secret keeper, I think there are people 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:33.920 to whom you'll reveal the secret who won't um, who 0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:38.320 won't acknowledge the secret. Um. And for those people, they 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:40.280 might not even get in the tunnel. They don't want 0:13:40.280 --> 0:13:43.760 to go there. So it's it's more that for the 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:48.000 secret keeper there's relief. UM. So if say somebody was 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:51.839 abused as a child, right and like say someone was 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:56.720 abused by their mother's boyfriend and they tell their mother, 0:13:57.120 --> 0:14:01.560 you know, years later like this happened, and the mother 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:06.720 does not believe it, does not want to believe it. UM, 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:09.600 there's relief for the person who tells the secret, even 0:14:09.640 --> 0:14:14.400 though it's frustrating. UM. But I think that for the 0:14:14.440 --> 0:14:17.600 person who still I think that in those cases, people know. 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:20.440 I think those mothers do know, you know, in that 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:23.720 particular instance that they generally have a sense, but they 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:26.040 don't want to they don't want to go there. It 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:29.560 would it would be too disruptive UM. And so it's 0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:31.760 not that they willingly say, oh, I know this and 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:33.520 I'm going to pretend they don't know it. It's it's 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:36.240 a very unconscious process. They're not even aware that that's 0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:40.680 what's happening. Yeah, could you talk a little about that, 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:46.240 because that's UM. I mean, I read a lot about 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:51.440 that while I was researching inheritance and the you know, 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:55.440 the period of time in which my parents, you know, 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:59.720 we're having fertility issues and conceived me, you know, via 0:14:59.760 --> 0:15:05.480 a owner. And the people that I found and that 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:09.120 I continue to that continue to reach out to me, 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:15.480 often in their eighties seventies, eighties, who they were told 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:19.800 to forget that it ever happened. Right. An entire industry 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:24.200 was kind of in service of, we're going to help you. 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:28.000 If you would like to explode this secret into bits 0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:30.920 and particles so that you will never actually remember it 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:34.000 and possibly even believe that it didn't happen, you can 0:15:34.040 --> 0:15:36.880 do that. We're gonna We're here to help you. And 0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:40.280 so one of the things that I've encountered again and 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:47.040 again are people who discovered that they were UM donor 0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:50.880 conceived and they discover this, usually through a DNA test 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:54.920 that they take kind of recreationally, and then when their 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:58.400 mothers are living, they go to their mothers with proof, 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:02.080 you know, in their hands, you know, genetic DNA proof 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:05.680 and and and say, mom, I don't understand. I mean, 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:10.800 what happened I was doing or conceived? Tell me about this. 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:17.280 And most of the women of a certain generation, um, 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:19.240 I would say, the women in their late seventies and 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:24.360 eighties that I've heard about, they actually have the response 0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:28.720 of that didn't happen, that didn't happen. And and they're 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:33.600 not they're not lying. It's something much deeper than lying. 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:36.640 And it feels deeper than what we think of when 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:38.520 we you know, we use the word denial. We throw 0:16:38.560 --> 0:16:40.400 the word denial around a lot, but it would seem 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:43.080 to me that to be in denial about something you 0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:46.400 actually have to hold it as an evident truth and 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:50.400 then deny it. This seems like something beyond that. It's 0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:52.920 it's very much you know, we can call it denial, 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:55.040 we can call it something else, but it's it's very 0:16:55.120 --> 0:17:00.760 much not in their awareness. Um so, you know, it's 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:06.639 it's something that they truly believe did not happen. In 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:08.760 no matter you can you can show them the Dno, 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:11.560 the DNA test must be wrong, oh you need you 0:17:11.600 --> 0:17:14.120 need to do a different one, or that that technology 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:17.200 has all kinds of you know, problems with it. Um. 0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:19.480 You know that's there. That's what they believe. They're not 0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:23.600 saying that because they feel like you're stupid. You know, 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:28.680 there's emmett em it um. You know, they're saying that because, um, 0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:31.800 they truly believe that there has been a mistake. They 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:34.119 could pass a lie detector tests right, like they could 0:17:34.760 --> 0:17:40.359 actually pass the polygraph. That is their beliefs. And so 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:44.159 and especially in you know, in your case, Um, you 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:46.719 know when you talk about how they mixed the sperm, 0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:49.680 that was why they did that. When they knew that 0:17:49.720 --> 0:17:52.520 the man was infertile, and you know, there was that 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:54.840 wasn't going to be the one that worked, but they 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:57.240 mixed it so that there's like that point o one 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:01.880 percent chance and boom, you guys, this miracle happened. Um. 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:05.639 And that's what they're told. Look, it were and and 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:09.240 and it was your own um. And so that's what 0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:12.960 they believe. Even though you looked nothing like that, you know, 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:15.600 even I mean it was even you look nothing like 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:20.080 your father. Um, that that's what they believed, and and 0:18:20.119 --> 0:18:21.840 I think that, you know, there are times when there's 0:18:21.840 --> 0:18:24.639 a crack in the surface where you know that they 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:26.880 might have thought, given all the comments that people make 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:29.520 and all of that, um, and sometimes they might think 0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:32.560 for a millisecond like oh, I wonder but oh no, no, no, 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:35.159 the doctor told us, so we know that she's are 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:43.840 right right, We're going to pause for a moment. So 0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:47.560 this self convincing or like, how much of this has 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:52.040 to do with I mean, I guess the way I 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:54.960 think of it in in so many of the secrets 0:18:55.000 --> 0:18:57.600 on this podcast, and so many of the secrets that 0:18:57.640 --> 0:19:00.439 I hear, is that there's this potent come a nation 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:05.680 of there's shame, there's often trauma in some way or another, 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:10.720 and there's desire in my parents case and in many 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:15.479 parents cases, I think, just the desire to just believe 0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:18.480 that the child is biologically both of theirs and then 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:20.639 just get on with it, you know, And what difference 0:19:20.680 --> 0:19:22.960 does it make? No one will ever know. In the 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:28.240 case of different kinds of secrets, it feels like there's like, 0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:34.040 why would a secret be kept to begin with? There's 0:19:34.119 --> 0:19:37.800 something underneath that secret that um you said it a 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:42.600 few minutes ago that seems to carry some sort of 0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:46.320 whiff of shame or you know, and then everything that 0:19:46.359 --> 0:19:50.199 goes along with shame, isolation, aloneness. No one has ever 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:52.760 been in this position before. I guess the difference in 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:55.159 you were talking about, you know, the idea of of 0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:58.080 partners where where one has had an affair. I guess 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:00.520 that's a little bit of a difference. It's I don't 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:04.560 know that there's necessarily shame involved there, although there could 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:09.000 be more like like self preservation, preservation of the relationship. 0:20:09.040 --> 0:20:10.800 I just want to fix this. How can I fix this? 0:20:10.920 --> 0:20:13.800 What's the fastest and most painless way to fix this? 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:18.600 And we can just move on and pretend it never happened. Yeah, 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:21.240 I think I think that, you know, when you talked 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:24.000 about desire, that really resonated because I think sometimes the 0:20:24.080 --> 0:20:26.560 desire is so strong for something to be the way 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:29.600 that it's not that people will go to great lengths 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:34.040 to deceive themselves and pretend again they don't know they're pretending, 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:38.040 they're deceiving themselves to really believing that something is as 0:20:38.040 --> 0:20:43.119 it's not. So you you know, this is um, you 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:48.040 know the biological child um. This you know this didn't happen, 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:51.760 This abuse didn't happen. Um, you know, whatever, the desire 0:20:51.840 --> 0:20:55.040 is so strong for the thing to be true that 0:20:55.200 --> 0:20:58.919 they cling to that. And it's interesting because you know, 0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:03.399 in the psychological literature, um, you know, we have diagnoses 0:21:03.480 --> 0:21:07.440 for things like you know, delusions and you know what 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:10.359 we call psychosis, even right when you believe things that 0:21:10.400 --> 0:21:14.160 are clearly not true. Um. But these people are not 0:21:14.240 --> 0:21:19.080 people who more psychotic. It's that there is such emotional 0:21:19.160 --> 0:21:25.200 valence attached to these outcomes that for their emotional preservation, 0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:31.200 they they you know, concoct a reality that isn't there. 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:35.919 And what's it like for you sitting in the seat 0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:40.280 that you're sitting in as a therapist when you see 0:21:40.320 --> 0:21:45.520 this playing out in your office? How do you help patients, 0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:49.680 I guess, break through that sense of let's just call 0:21:49.720 --> 0:21:52.560 it denial or sort of being dissociated about something or 0:21:53.000 --> 0:21:55.880 you know, just willing it, like willing it into not 0:21:56.000 --> 0:21:59.679 being when you're seeing it play out, you know in 0:21:59.760 --> 0:22:05.560 the patient therapist arena. Well, first of all, so often 0:22:05.600 --> 0:22:08.480 people come in with secrets that I don't know about, 0:22:09.200 --> 0:22:11.840 and so remember I'm only hearing one perspective unless I'm 0:22:11.880 --> 0:22:14.879 seeing a couple of family, um, in which case the 0:22:14.920 --> 0:22:19.680 secrets are much more easy to detect. So if someone 0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:22.879 comes in and they say, here's my version of the story. Often, 0:22:23.040 --> 0:22:24.880 you know, say they come in with like a lot 0:22:24.920 --> 0:22:29.600 of anxiety or depression. Often there's something that they haven't 0:22:29.640 --> 0:22:34.960 dealt with. And sometimes it's a secret that they haven't 0:22:35.960 --> 0:22:39.040 admitted to themselves. So they can't tell me about the 0:22:39.040 --> 0:22:41.200 secret because they don't even know that it's a secret. 0:22:42.040 --> 0:22:45.040 But eventually it does come out because they can't remember 0:22:45.080 --> 0:22:48.280 these self selected group because they came for therapy. They 0:22:48.280 --> 0:22:50.200 didn't come to talk about a secret that they weren't 0:22:50.200 --> 0:22:52.959 even where they were keeping. But they came because something 0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:57.080 was you know, secrets really affect every area of our lives. 0:22:57.160 --> 0:23:01.119 They play out and behaviorally and emotionally. Um. You know, 0:23:01.200 --> 0:23:03.639 if they can't get air, they're going to find a 0:23:03.680 --> 0:23:08.760 way to manifest. And so it could be manifest in 0:23:08.840 --> 0:23:13.680 like insomnia, depression, anxiety, short temperateness, inability to get close 0:23:13.680 --> 0:23:16.679 to me, all kinds of things. So they're coming in 0:23:16.760 --> 0:23:19.480 for some kind of problem like that. And often what 0:23:19.560 --> 0:23:21.520 we find through the work as that there was some 0:23:21.640 --> 0:23:24.040 kind of secret. Either they were the secret keeper or 0:23:24.040 --> 0:23:26.000 they were the person from whom the secret was cut 0:23:26.600 --> 0:23:30.360 and that they had a sense of it right right, 0:23:30.480 --> 0:23:35.199 and so the pain that drove them to pick up 0:23:35.240 --> 0:23:38.720 the phone or send an email and contact the therapist 0:23:38.800 --> 0:23:42.520 like that, you know, I need help, you know, like 0:23:42.560 --> 0:23:46.040 when no one no one does that easily. I don't 0:23:46.080 --> 0:23:48.919 don't think very many people, except like in Woody Allen movies, 0:23:49.480 --> 0:23:54.679 um seek there seek therapy because it's like recreational or 0:23:54.840 --> 0:23:58.840 fun or you know, this is just you know, something 0:23:58.880 --> 0:24:01.639 cool and interesting to do. It's work and it's and 0:24:01.640 --> 0:24:05.400 it's coming. You know, the desire to be in therapy 0:24:05.520 --> 0:24:08.520 or the need to be in therapy originates in some 0:24:08.600 --> 0:24:12.480 kind of pain. So when someone comes in and you know, 0:24:13.359 --> 0:24:18.080 presents as anxious or fear fearful or short tempered, is 0:24:18.119 --> 0:24:22.320 there part of a sense that you have that well, 0:24:22.359 --> 0:24:24.159 I feel like this is almost an obvious question, but 0:24:24.200 --> 0:24:26.760 like that there's more going on there that there's It's 0:24:26.800 --> 0:24:30.560 not these symptoms are not free floating. Here's here's how 0:24:30.560 --> 0:24:35.480 it might play out. Someone comes in and they say, um, 0:24:35.520 --> 0:24:38.320 you know, when I was a child, my dad died 0:24:38.359 --> 0:24:40.439 in a voting accident, and I was really close to 0:24:40.480 --> 0:24:43.080 my dad and it was horrible. And I feel like 0:24:43.119 --> 0:24:49.280