1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:11,800 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. I'm 2 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: Danny Shapiro and this is a special bonus episode of 3 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: Family Secrets. Today you'll be hearing a conversation between myself 4 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: and Lori Gottlieb, therapist, speaker, and New York Times best 5 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: selling author of the recent book Maybe you Should talk 6 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: to someone. I had the chance to talk with Lorie 7 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:34,160 Speaker 1: about the emotional toll of secrets. I hope you'll enjoy 8 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: this bonus episode. In the meantime, mark your calendars for 9 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: the season two launch of Family Secrets on Monday, August nine. 10 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: I just want to have a conversation with you about 11 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: everything you understand about secrets and sort of what you 12 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: experience in your office in that way, and you know, 13 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: just what you've learned about humanity the way that, um, 14 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: how do we hold secrets as we walk through life? 15 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:08,960 Speaker 1: And what does these secrets due to us? Right right? 16 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: That's such a that's such a great question. I think 17 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 1: so complicated, because we all have secrets. I think even 18 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: those of us who believe that it's best to not 19 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: keep these kinds of secrets, I think we still have 20 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 1: them anyway. And I think that the reason that we 21 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,400 Speaker 1: keep secrets is because partly it's you know, it's Carl 22 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: June called secret psychic poison because they're so corrosive, and 23 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:37,119 Speaker 1: also they're they're often all about shame, but I think 24 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: they're also about this question of, you know, will I 25 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: do more harm by weathers to myself or to others 26 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: by revealing the secret? Do we just let sleeping dogs lie? 27 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: Is that? Is that a better? You know, that's one 28 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: of the questions I get all the time these days, 29 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: is um, just would it have been better to not know? 30 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: Or you know, are there some secret it's that are 31 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: good to keep? A great example of that is, UM, 32 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: something I see not infrequently in therapy, which is someone 33 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:15,079 Speaker 1: comes in and they say, Um, you know, I had 34 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: this affair, but I realized by having this affair that 35 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: I really wanted to be married to my to my partner. 36 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: And if I reveal that I had this fair he 37 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: or she will leave me, or or that here she 38 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:31,799 Speaker 1: will never look at me the same way or never 39 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 1: trust me in the same way, or it will it 40 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: will paint our marriage. Um. And you know there's that 41 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: question of if this person never finds out, if my 42 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: partner never finds out, Um, wouldn't it be so much better? 43 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:55,119 Speaker 1: Why should I put my spouse through this trauma um 44 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 1: and all of this, you know, sort of like the 45 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: harrowing uh, you know, a most a roller coaster that's 46 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: going to follow if I revealed this thing that meant 47 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: nothing to me and that and that actually made me 48 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: realize how much I want to be married to this person? 49 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: And where do you come out on that or does 50 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 1: it depend on the person? I think it depends on 51 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: the person. But I also feel really strongly that the 52 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:25,519 Speaker 1: truth comes out. I feel like we think we can 53 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: keep secrets, but in this day and age, you can't. 54 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:32,239 Speaker 1: I mean, even before this day and age, it was 55 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: hard to keep those kinds of secret. Things surface, But 56 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: now you know your pernan will find a text and 57 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: be like, what was that from ten years? You know, 58 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 1: and then the affair is right there and why didn't? 59 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: Why did you? You've been holding the secret for years 60 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: and you never told me. It's even worse because then 61 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: there's a betrayal layered on top of the betrayal, right, 62 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: and and I think there's also aside from the practical 63 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: issue of that, they're really it's very difficult in this 64 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: day and age to keep a secret. Do you think 65 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: that there's something subtler and more invisible than that that 66 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:17,039 Speaker 1: secrets do? I mean? I know in my story and 67 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: you know, growing up being a secret and hearing so 68 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 1: many stories of other people who have grown up not 69 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: knowing the truth of their identity, not knowing the truth 70 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: of their paternity or their maternity. There was those were 71 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 1: secrets that were kept with everyone keeping them really believing 72 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 1: that it was iron clad impossible for those secrets to 73 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 1: come out, and at the time it was iron clad impossible, 74 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: and yet there was a residue or a kind of 75 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: leakage that those secrets would leave on you know, the 76 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: child or you know this sense that so many people 77 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: I've talked to have said versions of I always knew there. 78 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: Something wasn't right, something didn't add up. So even with 79 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 1: a lack of absolute knowledge of what that secret is, 80 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 1: it was impacting everyone around it. That's such an important 81 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: point because we have an intuitive sense when something feels off, 82 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: and the person keeping the secret also is impacted by 83 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: that secret. So in the case of the affair, that 84 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 1: person still holds that experience and they're going to be 85 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 1: different and changed because of it. It's not like things 86 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 1: can just go back to normal. You can't just pretend 87 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 1: it didn't happen. And so even if you think you can, 88 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: and so your partner is going to pick up on that. 89 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:48,720 Speaker 1: And even with little kids, I think intuitively we are 90 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: hardwired to kind of be able to suss out what 91 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,279 Speaker 1: is real and what is not real. That's why they 92 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 1: always say, like parents things that they can kind of 93 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,839 Speaker 1: pretend certain things around their kids. Their kids know and way, 94 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: whether it's something like what happened with you, um, you know, 95 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 1: or I was just talking to um someone in therapy 96 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: the other day and um, somebody and her family had 97 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: mental illness and they were saying, no, no, no, it's 98 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: this person's you know, it's a medical it's like this. 99 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 1: They don't want to say specifically what she was told 100 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: because it's just specific, but you know she was told 101 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: it was something else, and even as a four year old, 102 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: you know, she was like, no, that doesn't seem right 103 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 1: and and and and that was the worst part, was it. 104 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: It was that enough, this is happening around her, but 105 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: the secret made it worse. The secret made her feel crazy. 106 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: It made her feel like, well, wait, I trust these adults, 107 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 1: but at the same time something it feels like the barometer, 108 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 1: something is like telling me that this isn't right, And 109 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 1: then you have that internal thing about am I crazy? 110 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 1: Can I trust myself? Um? It really it really affects 111 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 1: the way that you navigate yourself through the world and 112 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 1: think about you know, what is real and what is 113 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:06,479 Speaker 1: not real exactly. I mean there's almost an element of 114 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: gaslighting to it, like just a sense of this doesn't 115 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: make sense to me, or I'm feeling these feelings that 116 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,679 Speaker 1: I don't know why. And I think, particularly in children, 117 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: but maybe in adults too, there's a way in which 118 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: when we can't really make things add up for ourselves 119 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: what we know something's not quite right, we tend to 120 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 1: turn those feelings against ourselves because we don't know what 121 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: else to do with them, that's right. We either say, well, 122 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: something's wrong with me, right, Um, this feeling of uneasiness 123 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: have to do with me, as opposed to it has 124 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: to do with something out there that is really making 125 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: me uneasy. But we but when you were saying, no, 126 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: that's not what's making me uneasy. There's nothing to see here. 127 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: I don't know what you're talking about. The other night, 128 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: during a Q and a. At a reading of mine. UM, 129 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: someone in the audience asked me whether I think, of course, 130 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: by having become this sort of accidental expert on secrets, UM, 131 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 1: whether I think that there's ever a good reason to 132 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: keep a secret. How would you answer that question? On 133 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: the surface, I would say no, because I think that 134 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: the truth is liberating for everybody, even if the truth 135 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: is painful, even if the truth is hard. I think 136 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: that again, we have a sense that something's off and 137 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 1: we don't know the truth. UM, there's always a sense 138 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:38,959 Speaker 1: of weight, just something feels wrong. UM. Somebody wrote into 139 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 1: my Your Therapist column the other day and wrote that 140 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: this person was, I think, found there biological mother, and 141 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: then found the biological father, and then had a really 142 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: beautiful relationship with the biological father, and then found out, 143 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 1: after I think a couple of decades of having this 144 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 1: beautiful relationship with him, that she took a DNA test 145 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 1: and found out that he's not actually her biological father, 146 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: that the mother had given misinformation about who her biological 147 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: father was. And and potentially because her guess is that 148 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 1: maybe it was because maybe the biological father, maybe it 149 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:20,839 Speaker 1: was a rape, maybe it was you know who knows. 150 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,559 Speaker 1: She doesn't know. The mother is dead now, so she 151 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: doesn't know, UM. And so this person is now eighty 152 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: the father, and she was wondering, you know, do I 153 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:34,839 Speaker 1: do I tell him that he's not my biological father? 154 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 1: And then if I do, do I what about the 155 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 1: rest of the family and will they I feel like 156 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 1: they spent all this emotional energy and welcomed me into 157 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 1: the family and did all these things, but I'm not 158 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 1: actually this person's a biological daughter. Um. And you know, 159 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: in those cases, a lot of times, when people are 160 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: you know, old, and they might die soon, people re 161 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 1: really wonder about whether the secret would be more disruptive 162 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:06,319 Speaker 1: to the person, whether it would kind of disrupt their peace. 163 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: And I used to think differently about that. I used 164 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: to think maybe it would, But now I think, o't 165 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 1: bet that this person would welcome the truth and that 166 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:19,679 Speaker 1: he would still love her just as much. I don't 167 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: think that it would be like, you know, a hallmark moment, 168 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 1: because I think I'm sure it would be very discombobulating. Well, 169 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: it takes it takes time, right like it. I think 170 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 1: that that's one of the thoughts I'm having about someone 171 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:38,680 Speaker 1: who's elderly and that's I've heard similar stories. Um, as 172 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: I've been hearing so many people's stories. I've heard very similar, 173 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: a very similar story of a woman who discovered that 174 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: her dad who raised her was not her biological father, 175 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, he's in his eighties and she 176 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: said it would break him. And so she now, because 177 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:56,559 Speaker 1: of the decision that she's made to hold this secret, 178 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 1: has put herself in the position of being a secret keeper, right, 179 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: And and it's a painful thing to be a secret 180 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: keeper when you I think it's probably a painful thing 181 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: to be a secret keeper full stop, but it certainly 182 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,559 Speaker 1: is if you sort of inherit a story or find 183 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,319 Speaker 1: something out and then feel that you have to keep 184 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: the secret in order not to hurt other people. Yeah. 185 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 1: The thing about revealing secrets, especially later on after a 186 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: lot has happened, is that you kind of have to 187 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: rewrite the past in a different way. All of a sudden, 188 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:37,199 Speaker 1: the memories that you have look different knowing that there 189 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: was this other thing going on at the same time. 190 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 1: An example of that is like somebody finds out that 191 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,560 Speaker 1: their partner was having an affair and they were and 192 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 1: their memory was we were on this beautiful trip to Rome, 193 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 1: and you know, it was really romantic and at the 194 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: same time you were having this affair with this other person. 195 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 1: And now my memories of you know, that year or 196 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:04,319 Speaker 1: that trip or that experience is so different because this 197 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: whole other thing was going on, and now you've robbed 198 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: me of that memory that's I've heard like that. So 199 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 1: there is this Any time there's the decision made to 200 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 1: UM to reveal a secret, there is a reckoning that happens, 201 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: and that is unavoidable and unavoidably painful. So I imagine 202 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 1: that you probably encounter a lot of people who have 203 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:41,560 Speaker 1: resistance to going through whatever that unknown dark tunnel to 204 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: the other side is going to be. You know, it's 205 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: it's fine to intellectually know on the other side there's 206 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 1: liberation UM, which I certainly believe and know and know 207 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: in my own case to very much be true. But 208 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,839 Speaker 1: there's the there's the going through what it's going to 209 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: take to get there, the both hurting another person or 210 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:05,199 Speaker 1: thinking that you're going to hurt another person and wounding 211 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 1: a relationship that's important, whether it's a father child relationship 212 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: or its partners, and having somehow the faith that and 213 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: the belief that on the other side of that that 214 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: is actually going to be better, that everyone is going 215 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: to be better for it. I think there generally is 216 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 1: relief when you get through that tunnel that on the 217 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: other side, what's waiting for you with some kind of relief. 218 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: If you're the secret keeper, I think there are people 219 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: to whom you'll reveal the secret who won't um, who 220 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 1: won't acknowledge the secret. Um. And for those people, they 221 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 1: might not even get in the tunnel. They don't want 222 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: to go there. So it's it's more that for the 223 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: secret keeper there's relief. UM. So if say somebody was 224 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:51,839 Speaker 1: abused as a child, right and like say someone was 225 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 1: abused by their mother's boyfriend and they tell their mother, 226 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:01,560 Speaker 1: you know, years later like this happened, and the mother 227 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 1: does not believe it, does not want to believe it. UM, 228 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: there's relief for the person who tells the secret, even 229 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: though it's frustrating. UM. But I think that for the 230 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 1: person who still I think that in those cases, people know. 231 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 1: I think those mothers do know, you know, in that 232 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: particular instance that they generally have a sense, but they 233 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 1: don't want to they don't want to go there. It 234 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: would it would be too disruptive UM. And so it's 235 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: not that they willingly say, oh, I know this and 236 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: I'm going to pretend they don't know it. It's it's 237 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: a very unconscious process. They're not even aware that that's 238 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: what's happening. Yeah, could you talk a little about that, 239 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: because that's UM. I mean, I read a lot about 240 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: that while I was researching inheritance and the you know, 241 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: the period of time in which my parents, you know, 242 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: we're having fertility issues and conceived me, you know, via 243 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 1: a owner. And the people that I found and that 244 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: I continue to that continue to reach out to me, 245 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: often in their eighties seventies, eighties, who they were told 246 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 1: to forget that it ever happened. Right. An entire industry 247 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: was kind of in service of, we're going to help you. 248 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: If you would like to explode this secret into bits 249 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: and particles so that you will never actually remember it 250 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: and possibly even believe that it didn't happen, you can 251 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: do that. We're gonna We're here to help you. And 252 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: so one of the things that I've encountered again and 253 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 1: again are people who discovered that they were UM donor 254 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: conceived and they discover this, usually through a DNA test 255 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: that they take kind of recreationally, and then when their 256 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: mothers are living, they go to their mothers with proof, 257 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: you know, in their hands, you know, genetic DNA proof 258 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: and and and say, mom, I don't understand. I mean, 259 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: what happened I was doing or conceived? Tell me about this. 260 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: And most of the women of a certain generation, um, 261 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: I would say, the women in their late seventies and 262 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: eighties that I've heard about, they actually have the response 263 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 1: of that didn't happen, that didn't happen. And and they're 264 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 1: not they're not lying. It's something much deeper than lying. 265 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: And it feels deeper than what we think of when 266 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 1: we you know, we use the word denial. We throw 267 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 1: the word denial around a lot, but it would seem 268 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 1: to me that to be in denial about something you 269 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: actually have to hold it as an evident truth and 270 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 1: then deny it. This seems like something beyond that. It's 271 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: it's very much you know, we can call it denial, 272 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: we can call it something else, but it's it's very 273 00:16:55,120 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: much not in their awareness. Um so, you know, it's 274 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 1: it's something that they truly believe did not happen. In 275 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: no matter you can you can show them the Dno, 276 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: the DNA test must be wrong, oh you need you 277 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,120 Speaker 1: need to do a different one, or that that technology 278 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 1: has all kinds of you know, problems with it. Um. 279 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 1: You know that's there. That's what they believe. They're not 280 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 1: saying that because they feel like you're stupid. You know, 281 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 1: there's emmett em it um. You know, they're saying that because, um, 282 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: they truly believe that there has been a mistake. They 283 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 1: could pass a lie detector tests right, like they could 284 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 1: actually pass the polygraph. That is their beliefs. And so 285 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:44,159 Speaker 1: and especially in you know, in your case, Um, you 286 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:46,719 Speaker 1: know when you talk about how they mixed the sperm, 287 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 1: that was why they did that. When they knew that 288 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 1: the man was infertile, and you know, there was that 289 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: wasn't going to be the one that worked, but they 290 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: mixed it so that there's like that point o one 291 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:01,880 Speaker 1: percent chance and boom, you guys, this miracle happened. Um. 292 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 1: And that's what they're told. Look, it were and and 293 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 1: and it was your own um. And so that's what 294 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: they believe. Even though you looked nothing like that, you know, 295 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: even I mean it was even you look nothing like 296 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: your father. Um, that that's what they believed, and and 297 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: I think that, you know, there are times when there's 298 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 1: a crack in the surface where you know that they 299 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:26,880 Speaker 1: might have thought, given all the comments that people make 300 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 1: and all of that, um, and sometimes they might think 301 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: for a millisecond like oh, I wonder but oh no, no, no, 302 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,159 Speaker 1: the doctor told us, so we know that she's are 303 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: right right, We're going to pause for a moment. So 304 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: this self convincing or like, how much of this has 305 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: to do with I mean, I guess the way I 306 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: think of it in in so many of the secrets 307 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: on this podcast, and so many of the secrets that 308 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,439 Speaker 1: I hear, is that there's this potent come a nation 309 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:05,680 Speaker 1: of there's shame, there's often trauma in some way or another, 310 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 1: and there's desire in my parents case and in many 311 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:15,479 Speaker 1: parents cases, I think, just the desire to just believe 312 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 1: that the child is biologically both of theirs and then 313 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 1: just get on with it, you know, And what difference 314 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 1: does it make? No one will ever know. In the 315 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 1: case of different kinds of secrets, it feels like there's like, 316 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 1: why would a secret be kept to begin with? There's 317 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: something underneath that secret that um you said it a 318 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: few minutes ago that seems to carry some sort of 319 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: whiff of shame or you know, and then everything that 320 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:50,199 Speaker 1: goes along with shame, isolation, aloneness. No one has ever 321 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: been in this position before. I guess the difference in 322 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,159 Speaker 1: you were talking about, you know, the idea of of 323 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: partners where where one has had an affair. I guess 324 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: that's a little bit of a difference. It's I don't 325 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: know that there's necessarily shame involved there, although there could 326 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: be more like like self preservation, preservation of the relationship. 327 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: I just want to fix this. How can I fix this? 328 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: What's the fastest and most painless way to fix this? 329 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: And we can just move on and pretend it never happened. Yeah, 330 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 1: I think I think that, you know, when you talked 331 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: about desire, that really resonated because I think sometimes the 332 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 1: desire is so strong for something to be the way 333 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: that it's not that people will go to great lengths 334 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: to deceive themselves and pretend again they don't know they're pretending, 335 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: they're deceiving themselves to really believing that something is as 336 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 1: it's not. So you you know, this is um, you 337 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: know the biological child um. This you know this didn't happen, 338 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: This abuse didn't happen. Um, you know, whatever, the desire 339 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: is so strong for the thing to be true that 340 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,919 Speaker 1: they cling to that. And it's interesting because you know, 341 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:03,399 Speaker 1: in the psychological literature, um, you know, we have diagnoses 342 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:07,440 Speaker 1: for things like you know, delusions and you know what 343 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 1: we call psychosis, even right when you believe things that 344 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 1: are clearly not true. Um. But these people are not 345 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: people who more psychotic. It's that there is such emotional 346 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 1: valence attached to these outcomes that for their emotional preservation, 347 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 1: they they you know, concoct a reality that isn't there. 348 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,919 Speaker 1: And what's it like for you sitting in the seat 349 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: that you're sitting in as a therapist when you see 350 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: this playing out in your office? How do you help patients, 351 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,680 Speaker 1: I guess, break through that sense of let's just call 352 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 1: it denial or sort of being dissociated about something or 353 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,880 Speaker 1: you know, just willing it, like willing it into not 354 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,679 Speaker 1: being when you're seeing it play out, you know in 355 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 1: the patient therapist arena. Well, first of all, so often 356 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 1: people come in with secrets that I don't know about, 357 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: and so remember I'm only hearing one perspective unless I'm 358 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,879 Speaker 1: seeing a couple of family, um, in which case the 359 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:19,680 Speaker 1: secrets are much more easy to detect. So if someone 360 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 1: comes in and they say, here's my version of the story. Often, 361 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:24,880 Speaker 1: you know, say they come in with like a lot 362 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 1: of anxiety or depression. Often there's something that they haven't 363 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 1: dealt with. And sometimes it's a secret that they haven't 364 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: admitted to themselves. So they can't tell me about the 365 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 1: secret because they don't even know that it's a secret. 366 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: But eventually it does come out because they can't remember 367 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: these self selected group because they came for therapy. They 368 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 1: didn't come to talk about a secret that they weren't 369 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,959 Speaker 1: even where they were keeping. But they came because something 370 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 1: was you know, secrets really affect every area of our lives. 371 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:01,119 Speaker 1: They play out and behaviorally and emotionally. Um. You know, 372 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 1: if they can't get air, they're going to find a 373 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 1: way to manifest. And so it could be manifest in 374 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:13,680 Speaker 1: like insomnia, depression, anxiety, short temperateness, inability to get close 375 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,679 Speaker 1: to me, all kinds of things. So they're coming in 376 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 1: for some kind of problem like that. And often what 377 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 1: we find through the work as that there was some 378 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: kind of secret. Either they were the secret keeper or 379 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: they were the person from whom the secret was cut 380 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:30,360 Speaker 1: and that they had a sense of it right right, 381 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:35,199 Speaker 1: and so the pain that drove them to pick up 382 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 1: the phone or send an email and contact the therapist 383 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: like that, you know, I need help, you know, like 384 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 1: when no one no one does that easily. I don't 385 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,919 Speaker 1: don't think very many people, except like in Woody Allen movies, 386 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:54,679 Speaker 1: um seek there seek therapy because it's like recreational or 387 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: fun or you know, this is just you know, something 388 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 1: cool and interesting to do. It's work and it's and 389 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:05,400 Speaker 1: it's coming. You know, the desire to be in therapy 390 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 1: or the need to be in therapy originates in some 391 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: kind of pain. So when someone comes in and you know, 392 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: presents as anxious or fear fearful or short tempered, is 393 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: there part of a sense that you have that well, 394 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:24,159 Speaker 1: I feel like this is almost an obvious question, but 395 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 1: like that there's more going on there that there's It's 396 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: not these symptoms are not free floating. Here's here's how 397 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 1: it might play out. Someone comes in and they say, um, 398 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: you know, when I was a child, my dad died 399 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:40,439 Speaker 1: in a voting accident, and I was really close to 400 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: my dad and it was horrible. And I feel like 401 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: I've never been able to have relationships with men um 402 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 1: where I really trust them. I always kind of like, 403 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 1: you know, I'm always like messing it up. Um. You know, 404 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: I always think that they're like not telling me the truth. 405 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,640 Speaker 1: Things like that. Won't be that direct, but there are 406 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: ways that they're sort of sabotaging relationships because they're always 407 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:09,199 Speaker 1: kind of looking for what's what's going to go wrong, 408 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 1: And then they it's like, you know, you can't fire me, 409 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 1: I quit um, you know the wave before um the 410 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,120 Speaker 1: person can break up with them because of this behavior 411 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,359 Speaker 1: that they're doing, and don't they're really having trouble and 412 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: relationships and here's my family history and whatever, and they 413 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 1: don't connect it to a all um. But then as 414 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,160 Speaker 1: you sort of talk to them more, you find out 415 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 1: and it's just little little kind of things that they 416 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 1: float out there that make you think, like, wait, did 417 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 1: he die in a boating accident? Does this person believe 418 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 1: that is true? And and and the person really believes 419 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: firmly that he died in a boating accident. But as 420 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: you work with them more, you start to see that, oh, 421 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: there's this little thing that they grow into the conversation 422 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,679 Speaker 1: about you know, maybe you know he was depressed, but no, 423 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: I don't really know. I mean, you know, those kinds 424 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 1: of things. And then and then factually it comes out 425 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: that this person has suspected for quite a while, even 426 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,239 Speaker 1: though it wasn't in her awareness that her father might 427 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:09,640 Speaker 1: have committed suicide. And then sep searching and find out indeed, 428 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 1: there are a lot of there's a lot of evidence, 429 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 1: even though some people aren't really talking about it that 430 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: way and some people refused about it that way, that 431 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 1: that he did commit suicide, and no one will ever know, 432 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: you know, in this particular case, we'll ever know. But 433 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: all sort of investigation leads to that conclusion. And when 434 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: she was able to kind of pay that, oh that 435 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,880 Speaker 1: makes so much more sense. It was such a most 436 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: horrible but it was the relief to her. It made her. 437 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 1: It was such a relief that oh, so many things 438 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 1: that didn't add up now add up in this way 439 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:50,360 Speaker 1: that even though it's so sad and so horrible, it's 440 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: better than the other stories. Yeah. I think so much 441 00:26:55,560 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 1: of what family Secrets mean this podcast is about, episode 442 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 1: after episode, is the liberation and relief that ultimately, you know, 443 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 1: if they can stand there in the gale, you know, 444 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 1: and let the let the wave crash over them and 445 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:25,880 Speaker 1: go through everything that is involved in the revelation, whatever 446 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 1: the revelation is, um that sense ultimately of oh this 447 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: makes so much sense. I mean, that's not necessarily comfortable. 448 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: It can feel actually like you know when you get 449 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:41,880 Speaker 1: a new pair of glasses and it's a really intense 450 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 1: prescription and for a little while, they're your eyes hurt 451 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 1: because everything is too sharp and too clear. Like that, 452 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:52,679 Speaker 1: to me is what that feeling is. It's like, oh, 453 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 1: you know, I see, I see God, It's really hard 454 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:58,959 Speaker 1: to see, but I see, and I'm glad I'm seeing. 455 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 1: And and I feel like just about everybody that I 456 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:08,919 Speaker 1: talked to reports that. And yet there's also a world 457 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 1: of people like I. I did this event last week 458 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 1: at a country club in New Jersey, and after I spoke, 459 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 1: the audience had um index cards that were gathered with 460 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 1: their questions, so they weren't actually getting up and asking questions, 461 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,359 Speaker 1: which I think allowed them to be a little more 462 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,879 Speaker 1: pointed and bolder in their questions because they weren't on 463 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: the spot. I was just getting the index cards and 464 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: reading them, and I was leafing through them as I 465 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 1: was standing there, and there was this one index card 466 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: and it read what good is it to know? And 467 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: I didn't have to take that question. It felt a 468 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 1: little bit almost hostile in its kind of intent, but 469 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: I couldn't resist. I was like, Okay, what good is 470 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 1: it to know? Where can I begin to answer this question? 471 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 1: And I think I probably went on like a five minute, 472 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 1: impassioned speech about all the reasons why it's so good 473 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 1: to know. And that doesn't mean that it's comfortable, but 474 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 1: that that's I mean. In every episode, I ask my 475 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: guest towards the end, do you wish you hadn't known? 476 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 1: And I still don't have a guest who said, yeah, 477 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: I wish I hadn't known. And you know, even even 478 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 1: ones that are in their story and are in a 479 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 1: lot of pain about their story have the sense that 480 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 1: you know what because it's true, because it's real, because 481 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 1: it's my story, and because ultimately, you know, the the 482 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: old trope of you know, the truth will set us free. 483 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 1: Actually there's really something to it. Yeah, And it's not 484 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 1: just it's not just the truth to some kind of 485 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: isolated thing out there. It's the truth of who you are. 486 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 1: So if you don't know the truth of who you are, 487 00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: you can never be truly comfortable in your own skin. 488 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 1: And it doesn't even have to be something that directly 489 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: happened to you. Like in my column a few weeks ago, 490 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: UM I answered a letter where somebody wrote in and said, Um, 491 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 1: I am now married to this man who I knew 492 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: the mother when she was alive, and the mother had 493 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: had another kid that she put up for adoption before 494 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 1: she was with this man, and then they got married 495 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 1: and they had this son. Now this son is an 496 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 1: adult and he nobody ever told him that he had 497 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: this half sibling out there who knew about them, And 498 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 1: I'm a church knew about them, but who had this 499 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 1: half sibling out there and this other family? And um, 500 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 1: you know, should we tell him? And she said, you know, 501 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 1: I'm worried that like one day, we're we're the only 502 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 1: people who have this secret. We nobody else knows this 503 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 1: as far as they knew, and we are worried that 504 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: he will find out after we die. But we're also 505 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,239 Speaker 1: worried that if we tell him will really upset him 506 00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 1: that he never knew we had a half brother out there. 507 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: And maybe you know, who knows where this person is 508 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 1: and maybe he would want that. And and now what 509 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 1: I said in my response was that this is part 510 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: of his story. It's not just the mother's story and 511 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 1: what she did and giving up the sun for adoption. 512 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 1: It's his story. He has a half brother out there, 513 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 1: and it gives him information about himself and is placed 514 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 1: in the world, and who he is related to, and 515 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 1: also who his mother wasn't And maybe what you know, 516 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 1: the mother was always depressed in her life, the letter said, 517 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 1: and maybe there was some connection, because you know, there 518 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: was some She had a lot of feelings about having 519 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 1: given up that child for adoption, and he might have 520 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 1: personalized those feelings. And now it might make more sense 521 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 1: to him why his mother struggled so much. It just 522 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: flashes out his story and there will always be answers 523 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 1: that he won't have, but at least he will know this, 524 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 1: and then he can make a choice about what he 525 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 1: wants to do with that information. That in the intuitive way, 526 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 1: I think that people know, you know, he knew something 527 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: was wrong with his mother, but then we make up 528 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: stories to kind of make the stories make sense. But 529 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: if we just had the information, it would be so 530 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 1: much better. It's like that woman who discovered that her 531 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: father probably committed suicide. She used to buy suicide books, 532 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 1: you know, books like memoirs of people who there were 533 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 1: there have been suicide in the family, and her boyfriend 534 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: at one point remarked, like you read a lot about 535 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: suicide before been able to acknowledge that maybe this would 536 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 1: happened to her father. She didn't make the connection at all, 537 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 1: but she would was always fascinated by suicide after her 538 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 1: father's even though she never made the connection that maybe 539 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:42,719 Speaker 1: he had commit suicide. Right. It's like it's almost the 540 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 1: difference between going through life and missing a couple of 541 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 1: colors like from the palette, right or um, or just 542 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: with this sense about oneself, like that there's something, there's 543 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 1: something that doesn't add up. There's a subtle disconnect in 544 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:07,960 Speaker 1: some way. UM. And you know, we can go through 545 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 1: life that way and even have possibly somewhat contented um 546 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: and successful lives that way, but there's always something like 547 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 1: this woman buying these books about suicide or you know, 548 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 1: in my case, all of my books thematically, all my 549 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 1: novels were about family secrets. Why you know, like I 550 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: if you had said said to me, why um, I 551 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 1: would have said, I don't know, it's just those are 552 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 1: my themes. That's what I write about. My parents had secrets, 553 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 1: and I would create, I had created narratives about what 554 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 1: those secrets were. They were just not the big Cahuna secret. 555 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: They were different versions of this. Here's my story about 556 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 1: why my dad was depressed. Here's my story about why 557 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 1: my mother was angry. Here's my story about why they, 558 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 1: um we were, you know, unhappy with each other. All 559 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 1: those stories were in fact true, they just weren't the 560 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 1: whole truth. We're going to take a quick break. We'll 561 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 1: be back in a moment. The other thing, too, is 562 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:20,239 Speaker 1: that secrets travel through the generations. So um, you know 563 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,720 Speaker 1: when you say you know the theme in your books 564 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 1: was all about family secrets. Um, if you hadn't unearthed 565 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 1: the secret, that might have passed along somehow to your 566 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:38,360 Speaker 1: son in some ways that we can't know. In my family, UM, 567 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 1: my father discovered when he was very young, he was 568 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: in the i think the attic of his parents house, 569 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 1: and he discovered this box with all this, you know, 570 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:53,400 Speaker 1: like children's things that were not his or his older sisters. 571 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 1: And one of them said Jack, and he said, just 572 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 1: Barrens who's act and they didn't tell him that that 573 00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 1: was the brother who had died. Um. And he still 574 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 1: doesn't know of what or he thinks that you know, 575 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,799 Speaker 1: with some like a flu or pneumonia or something like that. 576 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,400 Speaker 1: UM that he doesn't know where he's buried. He doesn't 577 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 1: know where, he doesn't know anything. But he eventually like 578 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 1: a neighbor at one point he remembers, like me to comment, 579 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 1: you know that, um something that that the mother then 580 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:28,920 Speaker 1: sort of like changed the subject and he would There 581 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,799 Speaker 1: would be different things throughout my father's life where he 582 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 1: kind of put two and two together and thought, we 583 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,919 Speaker 1: I think there was another person here and that boy 584 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,279 Speaker 1: in the picture was my brother. When he later found 585 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:44,840 Speaker 1: out that was in that the case. UM. And interestingly, 586 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,239 Speaker 1: when I was a kid, and I didn't know this. 587 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:49,960 Speaker 1: When I was a very little kid, one of the 588 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,319 Speaker 1: things I was fascinated by when I would write little 589 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,880 Speaker 1: stories myself was about like a dead child in the family. 590 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 1: I don't know whether it didn't happen, you know, it 591 00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:00,880 Speaker 1: didn't happen to me and my brother, but it was 592 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,319 Speaker 1: just something there. I don't know whether that's a coincidence 593 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 1: or not, or whether that secret was kind of like 594 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:10,000 Speaker 1: living in our d na um in the way that 595 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 1: secret do travel through the generations. And when I found 596 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,319 Speaker 1: out about this story, when my father told it to me, 597 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 1: I never wrote about that anymore. It was like there 598 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:23,319 Speaker 1: was something I was working out that I didn't even 599 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 1: know I was working out. Right, Well, you know, writing, 600 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 1: I think, or any kind of art making is one 601 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:35,160 Speaker 1: of the ways that we, you know, kind of work 602 00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 1: out our unconscious stuff and and we don't know that 603 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 1: that's what we're doing. So then there it is. There's 604 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 1: there's this body of work that you did as a child, 605 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 1: and you were done with it because that thing that 606 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:53,320 Speaker 1: you were digging for in some way without knowing it 607 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:57,799 Speaker 1: was answered. And I mean, to me, that's so fascinating 608 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 1: in terms of just the power of the conscious to 609 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 1: do that. So is what you're describing there in terms 610 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:07,480 Speaker 1: of like secrets being carried through the DNA, which is 611 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 1: such an amazing idea. Is that is that what epigenetics are, 612 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,480 Speaker 1: is that the that is that the study of epigenetics. 613 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 1: Epigenetics is fascinating and we don't know a lot about 614 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:22,400 Speaker 1: it yet, but we talked about it sometimes in terms 615 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 1: of like a surrogate tearing a baby UM whose DNA 616 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 1: is different from that of the curroguit, right um, and 617 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:36,320 Speaker 1: will the or were in the other direction, Say a 618 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:40,720 Speaker 1: mother who used an egg donor and she's carrying the baby, 619 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 1: but it's not her egg, right UM that you to 620 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:49,399 Speaker 1: make the umbryo. So they're saying that there's some way 621 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 1: that the d NA UM, somehow, UM can I don't. 622 00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:58,920 Speaker 1: I'm going to say this wrong. So, but there's some 623 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,800 Speaker 1: way that the d NA UM can be part of 624 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:07,279 Speaker 1: this child even though this wasn't her egg, right that 625 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,239 Speaker 1: the DNA because she's carrying the baby. UM. I don't 626 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:12,680 Speaker 1: know how it all works, but I do think that 627 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,080 Speaker 1: there's like UM. You know, Carl, you talked about sort 628 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,400 Speaker 1: of like the collective unconscious, right, and you think that 629 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,239 Speaker 1: there's like a collective unconscious of a family, which I 630 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 1: don't think he talked about, UM. But in terms of secrets, 631 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,240 Speaker 1: I think there is this like the way we carry 632 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,400 Speaker 1: the UM like the programming from our family. And if 633 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:35,120 Speaker 1: the programming is a programming of secrecy, we carry that 634 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,280 Speaker 1: through the generations. Sometimes we reenact it with our own kits, 635 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,800 Speaker 1: you know. We keep secrets in ways that our parents 636 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 1: did um. But sometimes like a secret that loves over 637 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:49,880 Speaker 1: a family gets carried on um in ways because people 638 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:52,000 Speaker 1: know that something's off, but they just don't know what 639 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:54,439 Speaker 1: it is, and everybody in the family feels a little 640 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:58,120 Speaker 1: bit like uneasy and they don't know why. That's so interesting. 641 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 1: So in that case, again, it's such an argument for 642 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:08,960 Speaker 1: secrets coming out because then presumably if if a secret 643 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 1: is revealed in the light of day, it can't do 644 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,640 Speaker 1: that particular kind of haunting in a collective, unconscious way 645 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:20,239 Speaker 1: of a family because we see it because we know it, 646 00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:24,879 Speaker 1: right and so and so that's why when people say, 647 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:28,080 Speaker 1: which is what you asked initially? Which is you know? 648 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,280 Speaker 1: Is there a reason to keep secrets? And I should 649 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,000 Speaker 1: say first that there's a difference between secrecy and privacy. 650 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:39,279 Speaker 1: Right We all places that need to be private for ourselves, right, 651 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:43,240 Speaker 1: We don't. We don't say every single thing that crosses 652 00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,480 Speaker 1: our mind to another person. We don't share every piece 653 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 1: of ourselves with another person. We need to keep some 654 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:53,640 Speaker 1: private spaces for ourselves. That's healthy. But the secret is different. 655 00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:58,400 Speaker 1: The secret is something that is toxic um and it's faster, 656 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,520 Speaker 1: and that's different private. See, it's really healthy and feel good. 657 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:05,800 Speaker 1: Secrets you feel bad. So are there reasons that we 658 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,560 Speaker 1: should keep secrets? We can come up with a million 659 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,120 Speaker 1: reasons that we should keep a secret that all make 660 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:16,040 Speaker 1: very rational, intellectual sense, but it doesn't make emotional sense 661 00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:21,040 Speaker 1: because in the end, that secret is going to affect people, 662 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,120 Speaker 1: even the people you're trying to protect, whether you like 663 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:28,040 Speaker 1: it or not, by virtue of being secret. And if 664 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:31,759 Speaker 1: you reveal the secret, people will have feelings about it. 665 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:36,160 Speaker 1: It might be hard for people, but ultimately, every single 666 00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:38,440 Speaker 1: person who has ever heard a secret, even if it 667 00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:42,480 Speaker 1: was something that really didn't want to be true, ultimately 668 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,880 Speaker 1: that I've heard um, they they say they wanted to 669 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,400 Speaker 1: know that it was better to know that it freed 670 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:52,840 Speaker 1: them up in all kinds of ways, in all areas 671 00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,680 Speaker 1: of their life, in a way that the secret was 672 00:40:56,239 --> 00:41:00,160 Speaker 1: limiting them and keeping them constrained or trapped. And you 673 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:11,920 Speaker 1: get the line. Family Secrets is an i Heart Media production. 674 00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:23,360 Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the i 675 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,480 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to 676 00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:27,360 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.