1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:03,000 Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray. 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff mom never told you? 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: From House top works dot Com. Hey there, and welcome 4 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: to the podcast. I'm Kristen. I'm Molly. Molly. Uh. I 5 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: would get down on one knee if I if the 6 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: mike wasn't sitting up on a table. So just imagine 7 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 1: me on one knee right now. Um, and I just 8 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: I want to know if you'll, if you'll be mine forever? 9 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: Will you marry me? Molly Kristen. I even though I 10 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:45,519 Speaker 1: knew what we were podcasting on today, I did not 11 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 1: expect this surprise engagement. Guys. I wanted to do it 12 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: in front of all our listeners. I guess some ladies 13 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: who consider this the ultimate in romantic gestures that you're 14 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: doing it in front right, I'm just the question. Yeah, 15 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: I'm doing it virtually in front of where in our 16 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: intimate sound and people. Yeah, it's got scot you know, 17 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:08,759 Speaker 1: mood lighting. I guess is it working. It's got soundproofing. Yeah. 18 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:12,039 Speaker 1: I mean, I've got all my notes in front of me, 19 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: and still I just did not expect this. I'm going 20 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:18,039 Speaker 1: off script. I guess I know how those people who 21 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 1: see their names, you know, pop up on those those 22 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:23,680 Speaker 1: big TVs at sports games feel It feels pretty good, 23 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: doesn't It's a little overwhelming. But you know, it might 24 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: be a little controversial for me to be doing this 25 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:32,199 Speaker 1: because I'm a woman proposing. Well do you double whammy 26 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: of controversy, I think. But yeah, that's gonna be our 27 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 1: topic today. And and I'm kind of baffled that I 28 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: did not see this coming, knowing that we were going 29 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: to talk about why men proposed and whether sometimes women 30 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: should flip the tables and uh ask the question themselves. Well, 31 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:50,919 Speaker 1: maybe before we go any further, I should go ahead 32 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 1: and state so that it's clear that you know that 33 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: was that was an example, Molly. I'm sorry. I rescind 34 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: my proposal to you. Um Chris and all our fans 35 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: know that you don't believe in marriage. Oh man, don't 36 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: bring that up again. You get for putting me on 37 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 1: the spot. I'm gonna bring it up again time. Kristen 38 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 1: said that, and it's haunted her ever so it has 39 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: haunted me ever since. But I don't want um, this 40 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: my my possibly marrying you do haunt me. It's no 41 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: no offense, Molly. But but that was a joke people. Um, 42 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: it was just an example of how to make someone 43 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: feel uncomfortable, just to joke like you just didn't even 44 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: didn't even cross your mind. Well, we can talk about 45 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: this effort. I think we need to. You've opened up 46 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: a whole can of worms. I'm kind of shocked how 47 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 1: quickly you we ascended this romantic Well, well if we 48 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 1: if if it were back in the nineteen thirties, if 49 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 1: I had done that to you and rescinded my heartfelt proposal, 50 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: you would be in line for a heart bomb suit. 51 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: That's true. I would. I would take you for everything 52 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: you were worth because of the egregious damage you've done 53 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: to me in front of all these witnesses. No less. Yeah, Actually, 54 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 1: in um, it was fun to find out from the 55 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 1: Yale Law Journal that in early American law, women could 56 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: recover damages when men promised to marry and then took 57 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: their proposal back because um, at that time, obviously men 58 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:17,959 Speaker 1: were more financially stable than women, and the action was known. 59 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: The legal action was known as a breach of promise. 60 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: But then there came this wave of all of these 61 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:29,519 Speaker 1: related suits of women charging men with rescinding their engagements 62 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:34,519 Speaker 1: and it became nicknamed heart bomb suits. Just a fun fact. 63 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: But you know the reason we wanted to research this, 64 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: you know, this week Kristen was we wanted to know 65 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: why is it the guys who have the obligation to 66 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: get down on bended knee? Yeah, we're knee deep in 67 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: wedding season people, all right, it's everywhere and people have 68 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: just been talking about marriage a lot in popular media. 69 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: People are questioning the entire institution. And so since Molly 70 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: and I have already talked about engagement rings in the 71 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: episode Our Diamond Really a Girl's Best Friend, and we've 72 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: talked about ms verse miss and why did brides wear white, 73 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: we thought, well, what about this question of why men 74 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: are proposing? Where did that come from? Because there's a 75 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,799 Speaker 1: trend lately of you know, men possibly wearing engagement rings 76 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,599 Speaker 1: and even women turning the tables and proposing to men. 77 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 1: But before we get there, we need to go back 78 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:27,039 Speaker 1: through history, and we're not going to go back to 79 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 1: a specific point because as far as we can tell, 80 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 1: men have always proposed just because you know, back in 81 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: the olden days, women it was more of a negotiation 82 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: and women were sort of the thing you could trade 83 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 1: one family to another. And this concept of romantic marriages, 84 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: as we've discussed, it's fairly new. Yes, a lot of 85 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 1: this information comes from Marriage a History, which is a 86 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: fantastic book by Stephanie Coons. I highly recommended if you 87 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: need something for your summer reading. UM and and I've 88 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 1: been reading it actually over the past few weeks, and 89 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 1: I was flipping through to try to find something specifically 90 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 1: on proposals. And while the book does not discuss the 91 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: whole lot does a man get on one knee tradition, 92 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: it's very clear cut that, like you said, only the 93 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: reason why men propose is because they always have. Like 94 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 1: way back in the day thousands of years ago, when 95 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: marriage alliances first started, women were the property that were 96 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: traded in order to either get more land or to 97 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 1: secure a families position in place to offer more protection. UM. 98 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:34,840 Speaker 1: And then with industrialization and around the time of the Enlightenment, 99 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 1: we have the rise of quote unquote love marriages, where UM, 100 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 1: men and women are able to earn wages on their 101 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: own outside their families, and so they have a little 102 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: bit more autonomy to pick their mates. But still it 103 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: was the men who were doing the choosing, And though 104 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: men did the choosing. Uh, this grand fancy, you know, 105 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: romantic proposal that it's just becomes the anecdote of the couple. 106 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: It doesn't seem to have you know, started it around 107 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: the same time as love marriages, even though men were 108 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 1: doing the choosing, either for you know, financial reasons or 109 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: for love reasons. As time evolved, they might have just 110 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 1: wrote a letter, you know, and said, hey, let's let's 111 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: do this thing. Or they might have asked her very simply, 112 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 1: you know, what the parents present. It wasn't this idea 113 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: of a big, you know, grand gesture. The Internet traces 114 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,039 Speaker 1: it to nights who bowed down before their ladies. But 115 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:25,480 Speaker 1: it's not like guys, you know, immediately got this thought like, hey, 116 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: let's bend down like nights and make a big speech 117 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: about how much we want to spend the rest of 118 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: our lives together. It sounds like we've got pop culture 119 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 1: to blame for that. I think it is pop culture. 120 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: And according to the book Cinderella Dreams by Seeley Otans 121 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: and Elizabeth H. Plaque, Uh, the tradition of a man 122 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 1: getting down on bended knee seems to be merely a 123 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: dramatic flourish that came from the silent film era. Basically 124 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 1: like once we started watching movies and then proliferated on TVs, 125 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 1: um it just kind of became the norm because that's 126 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 1: what you see. You see you know, Laurence Olivier or 127 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 1: whoever you know, Gable, Clark Gable, although I don't imagine 128 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: Clark Gable just being a being too romantic, you know, 129 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: he was a little more a little more of a jerk, 130 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: and the movie got the way he gets down on 131 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: one knee and jest and proposes to Scarlett o'h hair. Yes, 132 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: but even before we have Clark Gable proposing to Vivian 133 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: Lee on screen. Uh, the whole courtship process is led 134 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: by the guy, which really is not, you know, revolutionary concept. 135 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: I'm sure most people realize that, but Coon's points out 136 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,559 Speaker 1: that by the end of the nineteenth century, the middle 137 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 1: class had developed an elaborate courtship ritual, or by a 138 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 1: young man would be invited to call at a woman's 139 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: home and then they would the young man and the 140 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: woman would basically hang out in the parlor or on 141 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 1: the front porch, and they would be closely supervised by 142 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: the girl's family, and the word date wasn't used in 143 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: its modern slang since until the late eighteen nineties, and 144 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: even then it was only used in as working class slang. 145 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: It was kind of looked down upon. But then by 146 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: nineteen fourteen, we have the Ladies Home Journal starting to 147 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: use the word as this new fangled type of you know, 148 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 1: according that that young men and women were doing. That 149 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 1: was a lot more liberated than just going and you know, 150 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 1: a guy going and sitting on a front porch with 151 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: a girl for a while. And then, of course, as 152 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: we've talked about in our dating episode, in the nineteen twenties, 153 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: with the rise of the automobile, guys and girls start 154 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: leaving together to go on dates outside of the home. 155 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 1: And where they're going a lot of times, Molly, they're 156 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 1: going to the movies where they're gonna go see these 157 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: you know, romantic relationships portrayed on screen, which I would think, 158 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,319 Speaker 1: you know, might fuel this whole you know, men proposing 159 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: to women, men being the gallant, chivalrous nights in the situation, right, 160 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: because most most movies of that era usually end with 161 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 1: a good, good engagement and m happily ever after. So 162 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: we see that on the silver screen. But you know, 163 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 1: in the past century, we've had so much happen in 164 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:10,079 Speaker 1: terms of feminism, women, women's rights, and we're told now 165 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 1: that you know, women can, women can do anything, And 166 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: the question has come, can they turn the tables and 167 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: be the one that proposes to the man. And you know, 168 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: it's actually not a new question, because I was looking 169 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: through the New York Times archives and I found this 170 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: thing from nineteen o four written by this woman who's like, 171 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: you know, spinsters might just get too sad waiting for 172 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 1: their man to propose, So on leap here, why don't you, 173 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 1: uh take the reins and propose yourself? And then it 174 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: was I guess their tongue in cheek. It's kind of 175 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: hard to tell from nineteen o four, but there's some 176 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: some advice for women who want to prop the questions 177 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,679 Speaker 1: such as, um, don't do it when he's hungry. Uh, 178 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,319 Speaker 1: don't do it when he's in a bad mood. Make 179 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: it the make it sound like a really good financial 180 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: arrangement because now I won't have to pay for a maid. Um. 181 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: So definitely different kinds of advice than a than a 182 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: fella gets before he pops A big question but well, 183 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:04,439 Speaker 1: can I can I read a little snippet of this 184 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:06,959 Speaker 1: of this column, just to give listeners an exact idea 185 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,479 Speaker 1: of I would I would love how this goes okay, 186 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 1: Dorothy Dix says in The New York Times, the past 187 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:15,959 Speaker 1: is no criterion. Women do many things now that they 188 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: didn't do forty or even four years ago. It's not 189 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 1: at all impossible that many a discouraged spinster there's that 190 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:27,079 Speaker 1: word again, worn out with waiting for her steady bow 191 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:30,319 Speaker 1: to speak, And many love lorn maiden who was here 192 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 1: do for let let concealment, prey upon her own damask. 193 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: Cheek will take matters into her own hands and propose 194 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 1: matrimony to the man she loves in this year of 195 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:44,319 Speaker 1: grace ninety o four, because it was a leap here, 196 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 1: so he would do here right, Because I actually did 197 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: not realize the small I don't know how I missed 198 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: the boat on this one. But I've never heard the 199 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:55,719 Speaker 1: whole weap heer thing. But apparently thanks to St Bernardine 200 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 1: and St Patrick, where's it in the day? Sat Bridget 201 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: obviously don't know about it. Sat Bridget and St Patrick 202 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: back in the day in Ireland, uh are you doing 203 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 1: Irish accent for this and I'm resisting. People said they 204 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 1: love the accents, Kristen do it. I don't want it 205 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: to be. I don't want to go over there. You 206 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: can't do an Irish accent, can you? Now you're trying 207 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: to reverse psychology? Mean, welly, it's not gonna work. So 208 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: according to snopes dot com, one day St Bridget was 209 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: hanging out with St. Patrick and and she was all like, oh, 210 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: St Patrick, I hate that we can't propose to the 211 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 1: men we love. There you go, Molly, that was for you. 212 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: And St. Patrick was like, I'll tell you what, how 213 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: about every seven years? Uh, you guys can do it? 214 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 1: And Bridget talked him down to four years. Hence every 215 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 1: February twenty nine that rolls around a k a every 216 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: leap year women can propose the men. It's like Sadie 217 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 1: Hawkins Day. You know when you can you can invite 218 00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: a guy out. Yeah, the card just stops. That were 219 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: there could have been various penalties at the time imposed 220 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: that the guy said no, he had to give her 221 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 1: like a hundred pounds need to buy her silk dress. 222 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 1: Um Snope sinks it's more likely just because leap here 223 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 1: was such a weird day to have around our February 224 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 1: tiny night that all these weird things became associated with it. 225 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 1: So they're they're not sure how much truths in the matter, 226 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: but that didn't stop them from making that Amy Adams 227 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: movie about about that very very day. But according to 228 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: a column by Hannah Selicson in The Wall Street Journal, 229 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: even though it's still not that common for women to 230 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 1: propose to men, women are still playing a much bigger 231 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: role in the whole engagement process, or the proposal process, 232 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 1: I should say right. She cites a sociology professor from 233 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 1: the University of Central Oklahoma named Amanda Miller who conducted 234 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 1: a study about how proposals are made, and she studied 235 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: in particular cohabitating couples, and she found that couples pretty 236 00:12:57,480 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: much work as a team to set the date and 237 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 1: the inside cases, a woman will even script the proposal. 238 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: It's not like she proposes per se, but there's been 239 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:09,079 Speaker 1: enough dialogue between the two that she knows when it's coming, 240 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: and she might have picked out the ring, and that 241 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: it's it's less of a crazy pop the question moment 242 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,079 Speaker 1: like it was from me at the beginning of this podcast, yeah, 243 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: because a lot of times, unlike you know, when I 244 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 1: sprang the question on Molly, couples will have talked about, 245 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 1: you know, marriage beforehand, and they might be like, well, 246 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: I let's not I don't want to be married until 247 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: after I get out of law school, you're in med school, 248 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: or like you know, like you've got you've got all 249 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 1: this podcasting you're working on, let's get through podcast sweeps season. 250 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: I wish that existed. Um So, so yeah, it's more 251 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: of a it's more of a collaboration, which is reflective 252 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:52,959 Speaker 1: of today's relationship in general. You know, it's yeah, I 253 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: mean I think it makes sense. I think that we 254 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,839 Speaker 1: always advocate open communication about things like finances and a 255 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: status for relationship up Christen, So it's not surprising to 256 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 1: me that women play such role. But what's amazing is 257 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,079 Speaker 1: then you'll search the internet just for the question, uh, 258 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,439 Speaker 1: should women propose? And the answer from all the men 259 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:14,679 Speaker 1: who have written these online columns about it is no, no, 260 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 1: no way. I mean you can. It's almost like you 261 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: can kind of script the proposal to a point, and 262 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: then men want that ultimate responsibility to be like this 263 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: is my job. Yeah, I mean, men out there, please 264 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong, But it seems like from 265 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: what we've read, guys are cool with the idea of 266 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 1: knowing that their girlfriend wants to become a fiancee that 267 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: if he pops the question buys the ring, he's not 268 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 1: gonna have to take like a walk of shame back 269 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: to Tiffany's or wherever. But according to we found um 270 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: a column on the Gloss dot com, which is a 271 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: fun women's website, and they've got a They've got a 272 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: column on there where it's a guy answering questions and 273 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 1: he said, for the love of God, women, do not 274 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 1: propose to your men. Just just let him do it, 275 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: because if you proposed to him, he is going to 276 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 1: be the laughing stock of his friends for the rest 277 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: of the union. Oh, I don't know. I mean, Christine. 278 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 1: When I was reading that article, I did think I 279 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: had to wonder if it was really going to be 280 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: that rough for a guy who's lady proposed, as the 281 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: writer at The Gloss said it would be. I mean, 282 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: that's obviously something we're gonna have to open it up 283 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: to our listeners and hear their thoughts on it. But 284 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 1: I did find one thing at the Daily Mail that 285 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: made me and sort of made the case for me 286 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 1: about maybe why a woman should wait before popping the question. 287 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: They did this study and found that the average couple 288 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: gets engaged two years, eleven months, and eight days after 289 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: first setting eyes on each other, but the women feel 290 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: ready to tie the knot after just two years, seven months, 291 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: and twenty four days. So women are about four months 292 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 1: ahead on average of guys in terms of getting engaged 293 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: or feeling ready to get engaged. So I wonder if 294 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: Art it's just that women feel ready first and that's 295 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 1: why they start feeling man, I need to pop this question. 296 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: He's he's dragging his feet. Well. One thing though, and 297 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: Molly in this whole conversation that we haven't brought up 298 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: um and that didn't come up in any of the 299 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: articles that we found about proposals, was how does the 300 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: same dynamic exist in gay couples? He dismissed on on 301 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: one thing. I saw, this was only mentioned I saw 302 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: of it. Yeah, I mean, I wonder if the same 303 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 1: kind of thing of like you know, of the kind 304 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: of lag, the the engagement lag, if you will, exists 305 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: or if it's or if it's an easier I don't know, 306 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: an easier thing to negotiate, because I like to think 307 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: of engagements really is just business negotiations. Well, it's still 308 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: I mean, it depends on I guess where you live. 309 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 1: If you can even propose at all, well sure, but 310 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 1: still proposing, you know, a partnership, who who? Who does that? 311 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: If it's more of the modern day teamwork approach that 312 00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: was written about in the Wall Street Journal, or if 313 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: there's a clear, clear person who doesn't, Yeah, like would 314 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: you know, like automatically like expect to you know, pop 315 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:10,400 Speaker 1: the question or be the paper if you will. Um. 316 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: And this isn't just an American thing either, this you know, 317 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 1: cultural tradition of the men proposing to the women. In fact, 318 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:24,479 Speaker 1: according to CBS News, there's really only one culture left 319 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: on the globe where the women do the askin where 320 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 1: they get to decide. Yeah, it seems like there's barely 321 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: even any courtship. But on Orongo Island, which isn't an 322 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: African isle outside of Guinea, um It's women make their 323 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 1: proposals by offering their grooms to be a dish distinctively 324 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:46,680 Speaker 1: prepared fish and if the man eats it, which is 325 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 1: really not a choice because uh it seems like the 326 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,400 Speaker 1: men always have to eat it. Then uh, then they're 327 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 1: engaged and they've just they've explained it in that women 328 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: are just wiser when it comes to matters of the heart, 329 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: and so the woman must realize who she's in love with, 330 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 1: and that's how you'll know if a partnership will be happy. 331 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 1: So here's my advice to any of you listeners out there, 332 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: you know, who are tired of waiting around for your bow, 333 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,479 Speaker 1: like Dorothy Dix was talking about in if you're both 334 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: mom stuff listeners, Okay, maybe you just hint at things 335 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,880 Speaker 1: by by cooking a fish dinner, serve it to him, 336 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: look directly in his eyes, see what he thinks you 337 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:26,679 Speaker 1: see if he gets it and he needs to be 338 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:30,440 Speaker 1: marinated in red palm oil, palm oil, get to get 339 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:33,880 Speaker 1: a big old fish. You're good. There you go. Well, 340 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 1: I think that, I mean, that's where I really I 341 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:37,639 Speaker 1: think will probably come down to what kind of couple 342 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: you are. If you're both enlightened mom stuff listeners, then 343 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 1: maybe be more okay with a reversal traditional gender roles. 344 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: But maybe you're not. I think that one thing we've 345 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 1: learned from you guys is that there are still some 346 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,680 Speaker 1: things where we expect the tradition to hold, even though 347 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 1: the tradition might just be based on something as silly 348 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: as you know, seeing Clark Gable getting down on one knee. Sure, 349 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: I mean common common customs still holes that women still 350 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 1: take men's last names, We still wear white down the 351 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 1: aisle and have to wait for him the pop question. 352 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:08,440 Speaker 1: And you know, one thing, when I was looking through 353 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 1: all those New York Times archives, there was a letter 354 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: from nineteen eleven, and uh, it was some guy who 355 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 1: wrote an is like, if the woman's going to propose, 356 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: and I think she should be the one to support 357 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:19,399 Speaker 1: the couple, because you know, back then it would have 358 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 1: just been probably woman who didn't have a career, And uh, 359 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:25,719 Speaker 1: if she's going to take on this burden of asking 360 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:27,439 Speaker 1: for marriage, then she should take on the burden of 361 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 1: supporting them financially. And the Wall Street Journal points out 362 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:32,400 Speaker 1: that some of these women get married, you know, pop 363 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 1: the question, then they're like, well, where's my ring? You know, 364 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:36,880 Speaker 1: it's it's sort of like we will only do it 365 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:40,719 Speaker 1: halfway in terms of all these things we expect from men. 366 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:42,919 Speaker 1: If we're to pop the question, I mean, should you 367 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: get the guy a ring, and these are all the 368 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: perfect questions for our listeners to answer. Um, write us 369 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: in let us know, guys, if you've been proposed to girls, 370 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:58,160 Speaker 1: if you've done the proposing anything. We want to hear 371 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 1: all of your stories. I know that you of lots 372 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: to tell us, so send us an email. Mom Stuff 373 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot Com and Molly, let's read a 374 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:11,919 Speaker 1: couple of emails we've gotten in all right, here's an 375 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 1: email from Poppy. She writes, just finished listening to your 376 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 1: Female Bartender podcast. I've never been a bartender, but I 377 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 1: do work as a hostess in a restaurant, and I 378 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 1: definitely do feel like I'm on display. The bartenders in 379 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 1: the article you mentioned may not mind, but the attention 380 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 1: I often received from male patrons does get on my nerves. 381 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:28,400 Speaker 1: I frequently feel like reminding them that it's not that 382 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 1: type of service industry. If you get my drift, I 383 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: am paid to be friendly and accommodating, but this does 384 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 1: not mean that I'm willing to give out my number 385 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 1: to anyone who asks. I'm sure to some minutes flattering, 386 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: I think it definitely borders on harassment for me personally, 387 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: I wish I would just be allowed to do my 388 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: job without this even being an issue. All right, well, 389 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 1: I've got one here from Donna in response to our 390 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: episode on whether autism is underdiagnosed in girls, and she wrote, 391 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 1: mostly I found that I was distracted by your use 392 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:54,919 Speaker 1: of the term autistic. I would have preferred for you 393 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: to use person first language, saying instead a person with autism. 394 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: Times you did use the person first language, but it 395 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 1: wasn't consistent. Person first language is considered proper. However, when 396 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 1: using person first language, is important to remember that the 397 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: person comes first and it's not defined by his or 398 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,160 Speaker 1: her disability. For example, I would say I teach children 399 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: who have autism, not I work with autistic children. In 400 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: the future, police consider using person first language consistently when 401 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 1: referring to an individual or group of individuals with a disability. 402 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: And I didn't realize that, but um, thank you Donna 403 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,640 Speaker 1: for pointing it out to us. First good first language, 404 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: A good tip, And of course, if you have any 405 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:37,239 Speaker 1: tips or feedback for us, you can send it our 406 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: way mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com, or 407 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:41,440 Speaker 1: you can share with all of our listeners on our 408 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 1: Facebook fan page. You can also tweet it at mom 409 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: stuff Podcasts and then finally, you can check out what 410 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 1: we're doing during the week on our blog stuff Mom 411 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,119 Speaker 1: Never Told You, which you can find at how stuff 412 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 1: works dot com. For moralness and thousands of other topics, 413 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 1: visit how staff works dot com. Want more how stuff works, 414 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:06,919 Speaker 1: check out our blogs on the house stuff works dot 415 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: com home page. Brought to you by the reinvented two 416 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: thousand twelve camera. It's ready, are you