1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, Sophia Bush here. Welcome to Work in Progress, 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:08,240 Speaker 1: where I talked to people who inspire me about how 3 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:10,160 Speaker 1: they got to where they are and where they think 4 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:24,960 Speaker 1: they're still going. On today's episode, I'm talking to one 5 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: of my favorite writers, Damon Lindelof. He is a screenwriter, 6 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: a comic book writer, and a producer who is responsible 7 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: for some of the coolest and most engaging shows on 8 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: television like Lost, The Leftovers, and most recently Watchman. Just 9 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 1: last week, Watchman was nominated for an insane twenty six 10 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: Emmy's reading all Emmy nominations, So yeah, Damon is a badass. 11 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:02,279 Speaker 1: We recorded this episode back in April, just as we 12 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 1: were all beginning to settle into only seeing people on Zoom, 13 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: and honestly, it feels like two years ago, but I 14 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 1: loved getting to talk with him. We first met a 15 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: couple of years back because we did a panel on 16 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: activism and storytelling and what the responsibility of storytellers like writers, 17 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: actors and folks to make TV and film look like 18 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: in terms of standing up for what's right, engaging in politics, 19 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: and shifting culture. So I knew he was going to 20 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 1: be the most incredible podcast guest and he shared some 21 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 1: really amazing stories about how he got started in the 22 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: industry and how Lost was developed and really kicked off 23 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: his career. We discussed the impacts of depression even when 24 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: from the outside it looks like everything is going amazingly well. 25 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: He talked about finding a balance between life and career, 26 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: and we nerded out on all of the research and 27 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: the collaboration that goes into his projects, what's been especially 28 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,640 Speaker 1: and what he learned from that experience, and how he's 29 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:15,799 Speaker 1: focusing his lens on activism and justice moving forward. Enjoy. 30 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: I'm so curious about the wallpaper behind you, because I 31 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: have a photo of one of my best friends standing 32 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 1: in a bathroom in Chicago in front of that same 33 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: rabbit wallpaper, and like, I've never seen that before. What 34 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:37,919 Speaker 1: is found it? She finds amazing wallpapers, so she don't 35 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 1: know where it came from, but this is like my 36 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: entire office. Whoa oh, I love it. Yeah. And at 37 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: first I was like, we were like, should we just 38 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: do one wall? And then we had and then we 39 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: put it up and I was like, I kind of 40 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: want the chaos and all being surrounded by all these rabbits. 41 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 1: So there we are. I of it. Well, when you 42 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: when you think about being creative, like you literally have 43 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: to jump, you have to dive down the rabbit hole. Yeah, 44 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: Alice in Wonderland is the is the my my production company, 45 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: which is not actually a company. It's just a title 46 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: card at the end of my shows. It's called White Rabbit. 47 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: And so yeah, that the idea is, like, you know, 48 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 1: you follow the white Rabbit into the world that is, 49 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:29,799 Speaker 1: you know, just parallel to the world, the real world, 50 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 1: which is less exciting. But I try to put white 51 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: Rabbits and everything that I've worked on, um, because that's 52 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: the invitation to adventure, as it were. I love that. 53 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: I'm I'm very much. I'm like, I'll sign up for 54 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: that adventure. Let's go, let's do it. Follow that rabbit. 55 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: All right, well let's jump in. UM. Thank you so 56 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: much for being here. We've been trying to schedule this 57 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: for ages and and here we are now, you know, 58 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 1: digitally distanced, but connecting nonetheless. I'll tell I'll take any 59 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 1: connection I can get at this point in the game. 60 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: It's it's a it's a very strange time, it really is. 61 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: I think back to things. This morning, I woke up 62 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: really early for some reason. And I was sitting looking 63 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:22,840 Speaker 1: through some photos of things we all used to do, 64 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: and I and I just thought, wow, remember trains, Remember concerts, 65 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: you know, And I think about how we met, Remember conferences. 66 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: You know. We spoke on that amazing panel together, and 67 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 1: that was such a cool day. It was you and 68 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:43,039 Speaker 1: me and uh Sarah Gubbins and George t. Kay and 69 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: and we had this cool conversation about art and social 70 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: responsibility and where they intersect and how you can how 71 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,160 Speaker 1: you can be you know, political and and and stand 72 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:59,039 Speaker 1: for something when you're telling stories. And I don't know, 73 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: I just remember the day so fondly, and I wonder 74 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: when we'll all get to do that again. Yeah, And 75 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: we were shaking hands and touching food and standing in 76 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: shoulder to shoulder and then you know, and then afterwards. 77 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 1: You know. One of the great things about those panels. 78 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: And I can't remember who sponsored that particular conference, but 79 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 1: do you do you remember? Yeah? It was the milk 80 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: and in the Milking Institute. So anyway, it had this 81 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: sort of like you know, it was like professionals. It 82 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:34,919 Speaker 1: wasn't like quote unquote a fan event um. But the 83 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: cool things about about those kind of panels is their 84 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 1: fans too, And so after the panel ends and you're 85 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 1: just kind of milling around, people are coming up to 86 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:46,279 Speaker 1: George and sharing stories with him or wanting to take 87 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 1: selfies with him. And to me, that as someone who 88 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: was literally born and raised a fan, you know, that 89 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: was the culture in which I grew up. And so 90 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 1: the idea of you know, saying to myself, if I 91 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: ever get to be on the other side of this, 92 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: if I ever get to be the person that people 93 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: are standing in line to have, you know, ten or 94 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 1: twenty seconds with, oh my god, that would be the 95 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: greatest thing ever. I'm going to be so nice to everyone, 96 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: because some some people weren't nice, you know, some people 97 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: just kind of like scampered off and and didn't have 98 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 1: that interaction. And so that to me is the coolest 99 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: part of it. And one of my fears about you know, 100 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 1: a post um COVID nineteen world, even even post you know, vaccine, 101 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: is that right now our brains are being wired rewired 102 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: for like stranger danger. The idea of like you know, 103 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 1: putting your arm, putting your arm around a fan, or 104 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: taking their phone and and taking a selfie with it, 105 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: you know, or just like engaging. Now there's like a 106 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: real biological excuse or we can I cannot interact with 107 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: you like, um, this is a potentially unsafe interaction and 108 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: that really makes me sad a on a selfish level. 109 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 1: I'm gonna miss it, but be it it. You know. 110 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: The intimacy of of what we do is an illusion, 111 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: particularly for those of us who work in television from 112 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: the from the perspective of the people who watch our stuff. 113 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: We're in their homes. It's a much different experience than 114 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 1: a movie theater, where you're going there's a more formal environment. 115 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 1: You're seated, the images, you know, ten to twenty times 116 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: larger than you are. But in TV everything is to 117 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: scale and you know, and so you form real relationships 118 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: with the characters because they're in your house and you 119 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 1: watch them while you're sitting in your couch, you know, 120 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: in your boxer shorts and um. And anything that like 121 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: maintains that intimacy in the real world I think is 122 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: a net positive. But I think that it's going to 123 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: be very hard to come by, and I'm mourning that. 124 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: And I think to the intimacy of TV. Something that 125 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: strikes me is the things that we are present for 126 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: that we're unaware of, you know, to your point, where 127 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: in someone's house there on their couch, maybe they're sitting 128 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: around in their boxers or their bathrobe, but maybe they've 129 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 1: just lost a parent, or they've gone through a devastating breakup, 130 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: or they're battling cancer, and and we're there with them 131 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: through that thing. And and it's been such a like 132 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: it's a heart stopper for me when someone says, oh, yeah, 133 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:40,719 Speaker 1: I I did six months of chemo and watched your 134 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 1: show from start to finish, all nine seasons, and it 135 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,439 Speaker 1: was like the one thing that made me happy. I 136 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: I've come to know and be friends with a girl 137 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: who is a fan of of my first show and 138 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: has followed me through other things in my career. But 139 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: she was being treated for lyme disease and mom was 140 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: making little paper cutouts of us uh stills from a 141 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 1: show that I had worked on and putting them all 142 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 1: over her ivy bags, and like, it makes me want 143 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: to cry even thinking about it. And she would like, 144 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: you know, tweet me a photo or like tag me 145 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: and the thing on Instagram, and I would just sit 146 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: there and be like, this is the most this is 147 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 1: such a crazy thing because it's so emotional and I 148 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: don't even know this person, but I I know this person. 149 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 1: It's such a cool and crazy thing that we get 150 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: to do. And and I know what you mean about 151 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: what it feels like for the fan dynamic to reverse, 152 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: because I I'm such a fan. Like people laugh at 153 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 1: me still. I remember last year, my best friend came 154 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: with me to this you know, event thing that we 155 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 1: had to do for the Screen Actors Guild, and she 156 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: was like, what is wrong with you? You are a 157 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 1: famous person. You can't treat other famous people this way. 158 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 1: And I was like, but I don't. I still feel 159 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: like that thirteen year old kid who's like, holy sh it, 160 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: that's my favorite person from my favorite show. Like I 161 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: don't know how to be quote unquote like normal or cool. 162 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: I don't have I don't have that. I'm exactly the 163 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 1: same way. And you know, in the in the rare, 164 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: rare instances when you know, I get to go to 165 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 1: awards shows, there are those kinds of things where you're 166 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: literally you know, like I walked into the rest we 167 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: went to the a f i uh celebration for a 168 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: Watchman this past year, and I went into the restroom 169 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: and basically like the entire cast of Succession was next 170 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 1: to me at the journals, like literally, I like, they 171 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: were all there, and I was just like, don't stare, 172 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 1: don't say anything stupid, don't make a corny Joe, don't 173 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: tell them this Now is not the time to tell 174 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: them how much you love their show, like, um, just 175 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 1: be cool, um and uh. And I think that's great. 176 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: I mean, like this is the you know, this is 177 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: the coolest part of you know, of our industry. And 178 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: I think that there's a level of inflated narcissism from 179 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: a fan perspective, because I remember when I was twelve 180 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 1: or thirteen years old and I saw Twin Peaks and 181 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:15,839 Speaker 1: I was like, this show was written just for me, 182 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: Like David Lynch just must know me. He must know me, 183 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 1: and if I ever run into him, he will recognize me. 184 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 1: And that's just those are the thoughts of a crazy person, 185 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 1: um of a deranged lunatic um like in a you know, 186 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: like in a Robert you know in in the early 187 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,199 Speaker 1: nineties Robert de Niro movie like The Fan or or 188 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 1: Cape Fear or King of Comedy. But I I think that, 189 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 1: you know, that's the most exciting thing when you when 190 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: you catalyze that level of passion, you know, when that's 191 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: like the deepest connection you can make with someone, when 192 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,479 Speaker 1: they when they kind of feel like you're speaking their language, 193 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: Like that's that's that's the most positive side of it. 194 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: You the perfect thing. Because I love when I start 195 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 1: with people on on the show to to go backwards 196 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: because to your point, you're you know, you you're coming 197 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: into this space as this writer and creator and producer, 198 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 1: and there's people who are fans of what you do. 199 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: And I always like to find out who the people 200 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: that I'm a fan of that I'm interviewing who they 201 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 1: were when they were little. And I love that You're like, oh, no, 202 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: I was a deranged lunatic. My the fan the fan 203 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: culture can be so intense. But so, what what were 204 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 1: you like as a kid? You know, who were you 205 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: at ten or twelve? Were you were you always telling stories? 206 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:47,839 Speaker 1: Were you were you obsessed with the sort of magical 207 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 1: world of film and television even then? Yes to all 208 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 1: of the above. I mean I think that you know, 209 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:58,079 Speaker 1: my story is is is not unique by any stretch 210 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: of the imagination. I was raised in northern New Jersey, 211 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: um in a suburb of the city. My dad was 212 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: an executive at at City Bank, and my mom was 213 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: a teacher um in Spanish harlem ps um and uh. 214 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: And so we lived in this this town called teen Neck. 215 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: That was you know that the suburbs that you would imagine. 216 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,680 Speaker 1: D Do you know that my mom grew up in 217 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 1: teen Nex Yeah? Yeah, my mom grew up in Tea Neck, 218 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 1: New Jersey. I rocked around teen Neck and Paramise my 219 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 1: entire childhood. I worked at the at the cineplex odeon 220 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 1: Route for ten Plex in Paramise for five years. That's 221 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:49,439 Speaker 1: where that's my origin story. And that's your twenty that's 222 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: your twenty minute movie theater. Yeah, that's it. Okay, I'm 223 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 1: giving it away. I'm gonna let you tell the story 224 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 1: for the audience. But this is a I'm having a 225 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 1: moment here. No, it's amazing. So it was one of 226 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 1: those you know, I grew up in the in the 227 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 1: late seventies early eighties, riding my dirt bike around. I 228 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: was I was a nerdy kid. I liked sports, but 229 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: I wasn't particularly good at them, so, you know, but 230 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: I but I tried to play them. And but my 231 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: my passion was always telling stories. I was a voracious 232 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: reader and I liked writing stories and um, and my 233 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: dad was a huge sci fi, UM comic book nerd 234 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: and and a and a cinephile. And so he would 235 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 1: bring me into New York to see like you know, 236 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: Orson Welles retrospectives or you know, or musicals. They had 237 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: like a Rogers and Hammerstein retrospective at the uh UM 238 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 1: in New York, where they had at the zig Field 239 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: like a live orchestra doing the score for Oklahoma or 240 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: The King and I More Carousel. So there I was 241 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: exposed to sort of like a very wide range of 242 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: um of of great movies and television. And my dad 243 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: was very verbose and all that stuff. And that's where 244 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: we connected. I don't we We did not have a 245 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: close emotional relationship, but like we had very common interests 246 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: and so he curated all of that, all that stuff 247 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: for me. And I think that you know, starting in 248 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: ninety seven, which is when I saw Star Wars for 249 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: the first time I was four, um, and then you know, 250 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: and then going into the early eighties sort of the 251 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 1: Stephen Stephen King books and then UM and then Watchman, 252 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 1: which I read in in eighties six you know, over 253 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: the course of those were the formative sort of like 254 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 1: the Holy Trinity, Star Wars, Stephen King books, you know, Watchmen. 255 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 1: That kind of like formed the you know, the hubris 256 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 1: within me to say I'm gonna I want to make 257 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: stuff like this, um and uh. And that was carefully 258 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: cultivated by my dad and my mom, who was a 259 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: reading teacher and had a real love for for books 260 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: as well. They really you know, kind of pushed me to, 261 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: uh to do all that. And so, you know, I 262 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: found my people, you know, in in in school. In 263 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: high school, I was like I was ducky, you know, 264 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 1: a little bit. Um. You know, I was popular. I 265 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: was I was a popular kid in the unpopular crowd, 266 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: you know, like um and then ultimately became a theater kid, 267 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: uh with very limited um, acting and singing potential, but 268 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: that's where that's where my people were and um and 269 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: then that started to migrate into a real desire to 270 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: you know, be a writer um and um. That was 271 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: kind of uh, you know that that was like my 272 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: relative persona. I don't know how other people would describe me, 273 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: but that's certainly certainly how I saw my myself. M 274 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: Do you think you know, you say, your mom being 275 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: a reading teacher was really impactful, and especially that this 276 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: this kind of trading of stories and literary experiences and 277 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: and film experiences was like that that was your relationship 278 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: with your dad. Do you think that those things helped 279 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: encourage you to start writing? And I guess that I 280 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:34,400 Speaker 1: asked because I know so many people who love stories 281 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: and they love movies and books and all of it, 282 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 1: but but they don't ever start writing. So what do 283 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:44,640 Speaker 1: you think? What do you think got you putting pen 284 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 1: to paper and beginning to tell your own stories or 285 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: invent your own stories? It it felt more of a 286 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 1: compulsion than the choice, you know, I mean I think 287 00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 1: that like there was certainly for the you know, the 288 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 1: first two decades of my life, my writing only brought 289 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: me joy. It wasn't until I, you know, I started 290 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 1: pursuing a course in can I make a living at this? 291 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,880 Speaker 1: Then there were real stakes, right like then you then 292 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 1: it's sort of like it's it's a little bit the 293 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,159 Speaker 1: the equivalent of like I really love playing basketball, but 294 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 1: now it's time for me to go try out and 295 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 1: and they're going to be college scouts in the in 296 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: the stands, and if I don't have what it takes, 297 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 1: They're gonna tell me, and I'll know that this thing 298 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: that I love and I feel destined to do is 299 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 1: it is not going to happen for me. But until 300 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: that point where it was sort of like it's time 301 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 1: to make a run of this, which sort of like 302 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: you know, officially happened when I graduated college UM and 303 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 1: I came out to l A for the first time, 304 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,119 Speaker 1: I still was of the mindset of I'm going to 305 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: spend four or five years in l A just learning 306 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 1: the business um from all different angles, and I'll just 307 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:08,159 Speaker 1: I'll just write nocturnally or you know, in my spare time. 308 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 1: But I'm not gonna let anybody read anything yet. I'm 309 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 1: just gonna try to get better and better at it 310 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:16,440 Speaker 1: because I really I understood that I only had one shot, 311 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 1: you know, that the moment that I put a piece 312 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 1: of material into somebody influential's hands, that if they said 313 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: to me, this is not good, that it would it 314 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:33,120 Speaker 1: would break me emotionally, Like I mean, I'm not I 315 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 1: feel like I'm simultaneously very confident and ambitious um and 316 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 1: also wildly insecure, and that feels like it's a it's 317 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 1: a paradox um, but both things are true like they're 318 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:51,719 Speaker 1: they're simultaneous. And so like this idea of you know, 319 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: my wife, who was one of my biggest fans and cheerleaders, 320 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,680 Speaker 1: is always kind of baffled by how upset I get 321 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: when people hard on my stuff, and she's like, but 322 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 1: you wouldn't be able to make stuff at this scale 323 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,439 Speaker 1: if you didn't know what you were doing. So you 324 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:10,719 Speaker 1: have to acknowledge that not everyone's gonna love it, But 325 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: why are you questioning whether or not you're even good 326 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: at it? And I'm just like, you know that. It's 327 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: very generous for you to say that. But there's just 328 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 1: always that's there's always going to be a part of 329 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:25,199 Speaker 1: me that has that dream, has the fraud dream, you know, 330 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 1: that has the you know, it's it's it's it's what, 331 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:31,880 Speaker 1: it's well beyond the Emperor has no clothes. It's sort 332 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 1: of like and and to some degree, it feels good 333 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:39,640 Speaker 1: when someone calls you a fraud because it validates that 334 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: interior voice. It makes you feel a little less crazy. 335 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:45,879 Speaker 1: Like when people would be like you suck, I'd be like, 336 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 1: I know, don't I like for real? Like, um, it 337 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,159 Speaker 1: felt good at first and but then once you open, 338 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 1: once you open the doors to that, like, it's very 339 00:20:56,320 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: hard to stop it from infecting you. God, that's interesting. 340 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 1: I love the way that you are framing this and 341 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 1: talking about it because one of the things that I've 342 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: really been working on processing in my own life is 343 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 1: the idea of simultaneous truths that can be very opposite. 344 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: It's where the idea for this podcast came from. The 345 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 1: podcast is called work in Progress because I I was 346 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 1: asked to offer some advice to some young women, and 347 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: I think I offered them advice I needed to hear, 348 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: And I said, You're allowed to be both a work, 349 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 1: a work in progress, and a masterpiece simultaneously, because it's 350 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: you have to appreciate where you are and what you've done, 351 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: and you also have to set goals and and much 352 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: like you, no matter what I've done, I always think 353 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,400 Speaker 1: about what I haven't done yet, and when I when 354 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: I achieved the next thing that I want. I stand 355 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:54,919 Speaker 1: around in the room going is today going to be 356 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: the day everybody figures out that they don't want there, 357 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: or that I don't know what I'm doing where, that 358 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 1: I'm bad at my job, And it's like, Okay, well, 359 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 1: I've made I don't know, roughly fifty hours of television, 360 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: so like, I must be pretty good at it, But 361 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:11,399 Speaker 1: that doesn't ring true for me. I'm I'm so convinced, 362 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,719 Speaker 1: And I wonder, I wonder if the fraud, fear, or 363 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 1: like that little infection that we seem to share, that's 364 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,919 Speaker 1: like eating away at the back no matter what what 365 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 1: success looks like in the foreground. I wonder if that 366 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: is kind of the the genetic the emotional genetic makeup 367 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 1: or I guess the emotional version of a genetic makeup 368 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: of an artist who's also a sensitive Because it isn't 369 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: lost on me that I've had conversations like this with 370 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 1: some people who are like us, who really care about 371 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: the messaging, in the midst of the creation, in the 372 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:54,399 Speaker 1: midst of the of making the art, in the midst 373 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 1: of fulfilling the childhood dream of loving reading Watchman and 374 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 1: then getting to make it as an adult. That's that's 375 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 1: a story that has a purpose, that's a story that 376 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:09,120 Speaker 1: that roots for people. And so I wonder if if 377 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:15,719 Speaker 1: some of the the sensitivity maybe is why you find 378 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 1: the sensitive ones fighting so hard for other people out 379 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: in the world. Yeah, I think that's an interesting perspective, 380 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: and obviously there there's a range of it, right, there's 381 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: not I mean, what do I know. I'm not a 382 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: you know, I'm not I'm not an anthropologist or a 383 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: behavioral psychologist. But I would The way that I see 384 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 1: the world is everyone is a sensitive and there's and 385 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 1: some people are just much better at stuffing, like stuffing 386 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,400 Speaker 1: it down and keeping it separate. But I think that 387 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 1: it's very difficult to go through the experience of life 388 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:56,160 Speaker 1: and not feel things quite intensely. I think if you're 389 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 1: raised in an environment where the volume is always super loud, 390 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: you find things to shoven your ears. Um. And sometimes 391 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 1: those things calcify and you can't ever get them out again. Um. 392 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 1: But but like and other people are like I, I 393 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:14,479 Speaker 1: can deal with the volume, you know. I don't want 394 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: to turn it down. I want to hear it all, 395 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 1: even when it's even when it's irritating, even when it 396 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:23,199 Speaker 1: keeps me awake at night, Like I, it helps me 397 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 1: to hear it. There's a you know, like and but 398 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 1: but there's we all hear it, you know. Um. And 399 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 1: so I do feel that I'm certainly in the list 400 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: of adjectives that people who know me would use to 401 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:44,399 Speaker 1: describe me. I think sensitive is one. And that word 402 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 1: cuts both ways, you know. I mean it's sort of like, 403 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,159 Speaker 1: you know, the kinder side of it is is is 404 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 1: you know, he's a real sensitive guy, you know, and 405 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:55,440 Speaker 1: then the other side of it is like, wow, you're 406 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: being really sensitive right now. Um. And so I think 407 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 1: that that I idea of, like, you know, being able 408 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 1: to being able to kind of put on your armor 409 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: when you need it, um, but also being able to 410 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 1: take it off when you don't. That's the you know, 411 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: that's the practice. And I find that my best work 412 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 1: comes when my armor is off. Um. Once it's finished, 413 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,120 Speaker 1: then it's time to put my armor on again. Because 414 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 1: you know what's if you're if you're if you're doing 415 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 1: it right, um, you know, not everybody's gonna like it. Um, 416 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,200 Speaker 1: you know. And uh, I say out of one side 417 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,239 Speaker 1: of my mouth. I want things. I want to do 418 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,439 Speaker 1: things that haven't really been done before. I want to 419 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,199 Speaker 1: be provocative. I want to reflect the world as a 420 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: messy place that is doesn't really have rules and um, 421 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,679 Speaker 1: and it's often confusing and the endings are ambiguous at best. 422 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 1: And then and I want to do that and then 423 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: when people are like, I don't like ambiguity, I should 424 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 1: be like, well, you know, that's sorry, that that's the 425 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,399 Speaker 1: way that it works. And instead I'm like, you don't 426 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: like that makes me really sad? Um and uh, you know, 427 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:09,399 Speaker 1: and then I go back for more and you know, 428 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,399 Speaker 1: just repeat the process. I think that you have to 429 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:16,880 Speaker 1: kind of forget how painful the birth was, and I don't. 430 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 1: I only use that metaphor understanding that I'm a man 431 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 1: and I'll never truly experience what it is. But there's 432 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 1: there's simultaneous pain and beauty um and um. And then 433 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 1: but then it's not over right. You're in in this 434 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: new phase of It's not like the birth is just 435 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 1: one one phase of it. Now you're holding this this 436 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,160 Speaker 1: baby and it's outside you and other people are seeing 437 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 1: it and and it it is. It is growing, and 438 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: it has a mind of its own and you can 439 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,880 Speaker 1: nurture it. But it is not you. UM that I've 440 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 1: I've come to find, particularly in the television space, that 441 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 1: is highly collaborative when you know, uh, like this baby 442 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 1: is ours. The more that I feel connected to the 443 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 1: collective um, the the the less sensitive I am, the 444 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 1: bad kind of sensitive UM and uh so that that 445 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: part of it is is really beautiful and awesome. And 446 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 1: just to circle back to your initial question at the 447 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 1: beginning of this foray about writing about why is it 448 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 1: that some people actually do it and other people just 449 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,680 Speaker 1: want to do it and don't do it. I think 450 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,679 Speaker 1: the answer is, like, start to try to find people 451 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,639 Speaker 1: who will pull it out of you. You know, some people, 452 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:41,160 Speaker 1: most people, I think right better in collaboration. Um. The 453 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,239 Speaker 1: hardest thing to do is to write alone. And so 454 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 1: that idea of saying like I'm going to go out 455 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:50,399 Speaker 1: and I'm I'm I'm going to be a tennis player 456 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: versus I'm going to be a basketball player. One thing 457 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 1: is a team sport and the other is all about 458 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: the individual. And so if you can find other people 459 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 1: who want to write, or take a class, um where 460 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 1: you all sit around and talk about each other's work, 461 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 1: like put yourself, put yourself in an environment where there's 462 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 1: a group. Um, you know, that's when it's it started 463 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,880 Speaker 1: kind of coming out of me. I started writing as 464 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,199 Speaker 1: a result of creative writing classes that I was taking 465 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 1: in you know, in fifth and sixth grade. Not a lot, 466 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: you know, not every middle school in America has a 467 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: creative writing class. Um, I went to public public school 468 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,880 Speaker 1: and te Neck is like private school everywhere else. I mean, 469 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: we had a great school system. Um. But but you 470 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: can't always rely on on public education to foster that 471 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 1: that part of you. So you start creative writing classes 472 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 1: fifth or sixth grade, that's around twelve. And you mentioned 473 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 1: your job at the movie theater at the Audien. You 474 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 1: were fourteen and you start work, that's right. Uh did 475 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: your parents suggest that you get a job or were 476 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 1: you like chomping at the bid to be around movies. Um? Both, 477 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 1: But but the primary driver was my My folks got 478 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 1: divorced when I was eleven. My dad moved out and 479 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 1: he had the study in our attic of our house, 480 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: and I wanted to move up there, um and make 481 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: it my bedroom because it was just it was just cool. 482 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 1: There was more space, it was the attic like it 483 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 1: was at the top of the house. I had more 484 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: privacy away from uh, you know, my mom. And I 485 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: was an only child. Uh so it's not like there 486 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: were other siblings to contend with. But I was like, 487 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: I want and and my mom was like, it's not you, 488 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 1: it's it's a it's a study. Like if it's a bedroom, 489 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 1: it needs to have carpeting, and I'm not going to 490 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 1: pay for the carpeting. We can't afford the carpeting. And 491 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 1: I was like, if I pay for the carpeting, can 492 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 1: I move up there? And she was like, yes, um, 493 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: but you're fourteen years old and no one's gonna hire 494 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: fourteen year old. And so we went to the movies 495 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 1: at the It was at the r K O Route 496 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 1: for tent plegs at the time, and there was a 497 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: help wanted sign and I loved movies, and uh so 498 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 1: I applied for a job there to be an usher, 499 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 1: and I had to fall. I had to get my 500 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: parents to sign a work permit, which they did, and 501 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 1: then they hired me. And so I worked as an 502 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: usher um for from fourteen to sixteen, and then as 503 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,720 Speaker 1: a cashier, which was the more coveted spot because you 504 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 1: got to sit down, um and and handle money versus 505 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: just ripping tickets and cleaning up movie theaters. Nobody wanted 506 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 1: to do concessions because you smelled like popcorn for days 507 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: on it, which is like, it's a really nice smell 508 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 1: when you're at the movie theater, but it's not a 509 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 1: it's not a nice smell in your daily existence. And 510 00:30:55,640 --> 00:31:00,120 Speaker 1: uh and so I worked there for four years is 511 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 1: basically my entire high school existence. Um Mondays, Wednesdays and Sundays. 512 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 1: And would pick up double shifts if and when I 513 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 1: needed the money. But uh, but during that time, I 514 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 1: basically saw every single movie that came out between seven, 515 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 1: but I saw them all out of order. So as you, 516 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 1: as you referenced earlier, we had fifteen to twenty minute 517 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 1: long breaks um in a four hour shift, and I 518 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 1: you could time, you could sort of time your break 519 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 1: whenever you wanted to, if you were on the manager's 520 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 1: good side. And so if pretty Woman was playing, for example, 521 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 1: and these were the days were like pretty Women actually 522 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 1: played in that movie theater for like eight months. It 523 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 1: was so popular that, um that you like, I would 524 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 1: go on my first break, I would just go in 525 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 1: and watch whatever twenty minutes of Pretty Women were on. 526 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: But then my next break, I'd be like, I want 527 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: to schedule a different twenty minutes. Um. And so for 528 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 1: two our movie, you know, you would basically watch it 529 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: in six six to eight blocks of over the course 530 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: of multiple days and shifts and and out of order. 531 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 1: Um and and so every movie. Even shitty movies are 532 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: great when you watch them out of order, because you 533 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: have to sort of figure out what the hell is happening. 534 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 1: And so if you watch the beginning towards the ends, 535 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: you're like, oh, that's why he's so mad at her 536 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 1: um Or if a character dies towards the end of 537 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: the movie, every scene that they're in in subsequent viewings 538 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,480 Speaker 1: has added power because you know that they're going to die. 539 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: They don't know. And so I started to realize that 540 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: not that that the story was important, but also the 541 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 1: order in which you told the story changed the way everything. 542 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 1: Um that you know, you could start in the middle 543 00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,280 Speaker 1: and it would be infinitely more interesting than if you 544 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: just told it in a chronological order. And then when 545 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 1: I graduated, um uh, when I graduated college, the first 546 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 1: movie that I saw in Los Angeles was Pulp Fiction. 547 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 1: We saw it in and Los Felas, and it was 548 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 1: sold out in my roommate and I sat on the 549 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 1: floor in the aisle um and watched the movie, and 550 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 1: as it was going, I was like, this is just 551 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: like all those movies that I saw back in high school, 552 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 1: but it's actually designed to be out of order. Like 553 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 1: John Travolta gets shot and killed by Bruce Willis in 554 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 1: the middle of the movie, but the entire third act 555 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 1: is about John Travolta and Samuel L. Jackson, and the 556 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 1: movie ends with a conversation between the two where Sam 557 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 1: Jackson is saying, I'm going to stop being a hitman 558 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 1: now because God spared our lives and I don't eat pig, 559 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: and John Travolta is saying to him, well, I don't 560 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,080 Speaker 1: think it was divine intervention. It was the happy accident. 561 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 1: And and right at the moment that the opening of 562 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: the movie loops back in on them, which is Tim 563 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 1: Roth and Amanda Plumber holding up that restaurant, and then 564 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 1: Sam Jackson subsequently talking Tim Roth into leaving, you realize 565 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 1: that all the power from that scene is derived from 566 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 1: knowing that John Travolta is going to die everything that 567 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 1: everything that Sam Jackson is saying to him is prophetic. 568 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,360 Speaker 1: You know that it's true because you just watched it happen. 569 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,760 Speaker 1: And so that's when kind of that was the Karate 570 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,840 Speaker 1: Kid moment of I've just spent you know, a month 571 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 1: like waxing your cars, and now you're attacking me. Mr 572 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,319 Speaker 1: Miyagi and I know my body instinctively knows how to 573 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,799 Speaker 1: move in order because I've been waxing your cars. That's 574 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,879 Speaker 1: kind of the moment where everything clicked and I was like, 575 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm going to be a good storyteller, 576 00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 1: but I think I know how to tell stories out 577 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:03,799 Speaker 1: of order and make that work. Um and um. And 578 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 1: that was kind of the you know, that was the 579 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 1: beginning of like the compulsion inside me to say like again, 580 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 1: it's it's a mixture of hubris right where it's sort 581 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:17,319 Speaker 1: of like the hubrist of feeling like you you know 582 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 1: how to do something that you haven't really done yet. Um. 583 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:27,560 Speaker 1: But you know, that's a there's nothing more thrilling. That's 584 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,080 Speaker 1: so cool. And it strikes me when you say that. 585 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:32,759 Speaker 1: That's sure, there's a moment of hubris, but also I 586 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:37,839 Speaker 1: think it feels to me electric, like a like when 587 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 1: it I remember science class as a kid, you know, 588 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:43,239 Speaker 1: and you look at the animation of an atom and 589 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,920 Speaker 1: it's like, imagine when that thing comes online and all 590 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:47,799 Speaker 1: the little cells are buzzing and you know they're going 591 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:52,760 Speaker 1: to make something. It's it's like it's a it's a calling, 592 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:57,920 Speaker 1: you know, something something turned on for you and how cool, 593 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 1: how cool to think that as you were watching pulp 594 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 1: fiction you realized kind of the what was an obvious 595 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:10,720 Speaker 1: purpose of of all those twenty minute breaks? It was yeah, 596 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:14,920 Speaker 1: I mean it was that moment again of and then 597 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: you listen to Tarantino talk about all the things that 598 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:22,719 Speaker 1: sort of inspired him, you know he um he obviously 599 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,040 Speaker 1: his experience of working in a video store but not 600 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:30,920 Speaker 1: really having the formal training of you know, of film school, 601 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:35,279 Speaker 1: but having been interested in a very particular kind of 602 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 1: movie and those all being his influences and then generating 603 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 1: you know, high art you know what what we would call, 604 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:50,279 Speaker 1: you know, masterpiece or you know, Oscar caliber material, but 605 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 1: from the dregs of you know, B movies and grindhouse 606 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:57,640 Speaker 1: flicks and old Kung Fu and and and and sort 607 00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: of like Italian horror movie. You know. He basically those 608 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 1: were that was that, those were the ingredients of the 609 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,880 Speaker 1: stew for him. And it is the sort of idea 610 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 1: of of um, there's this guy Kirby Ferguson who has 611 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 1: these great YouTube YouTube videos called Everything is a Remix 612 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 1: and um, and it kind of it starts by just 613 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,440 Speaker 1: talking about how we understand the word remix in the 614 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 1: in the construct of music um and different you know, 615 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:35,880 Speaker 1: bass licks being reincorporated into other songs, and then obviously 616 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:41,200 Speaker 1: in and once you get into hip hop, literally sampling 617 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 1: um old music and to make new music. And and 618 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,720 Speaker 1: then he starts to kind of expand that idea into 619 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:54,080 Speaker 1: you know, popular culture and movies and television in terms 620 00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:57,920 Speaker 1: of ideas, and and I think that that that feeling 621 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,879 Speaker 1: of you know, all the all the building blocks are there, 622 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 1: all the legos are there disassembled in the box, and 623 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,680 Speaker 1: they're all but they're all from different lego sets, and 624 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:12,240 Speaker 1: nobody really wants you to make the thing on the box. 625 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:14,680 Speaker 1: You know, they want you to use the legos in 626 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,479 Speaker 1: the box from the Space set, and you can why 627 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 1: can't you combine that with the you know, with the 628 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,560 Speaker 1: Dungeons and Dragon set, And so you start kind of 629 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 1: mixing everything up together. And that's where the real interesting 630 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:32,439 Speaker 1: stories lie. And so you're what was curated for you 631 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:34,880 Speaker 1: or what speaks to you is the sort of broad 632 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:39,760 Speaker 1: range of of different and interesting things. And so you 633 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:45,040 Speaker 1: you have um like, you have someone who's basically writing 634 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 1: like Twilight fan fick, and that becomes fifty shades of gray, right, 635 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:53,279 Speaker 1: like um you know, like that to me is the 636 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,080 Speaker 1: kind of like is a very specific ven diagram. I 637 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,919 Speaker 1: I'm really interested in, you know, and and in sext 638 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,920 Speaker 1: romance and vampires, but what if they didn't have to 639 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,440 Speaker 1: be vampires? Um like and so on and so forth, 640 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 1: And so I think that um like, everything is a remix. 641 00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:15,840 Speaker 1: But in the process of finding the things that really 642 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,359 Speaker 1: terms you on um and then kind of amplifying them 643 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 1: and sticking them together new and interesting ways, you can 644 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:27,320 Speaker 1: actually generate something that feels very new out of old parts. 645 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 1: And it strikes me when you talk about, you know, 646 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,880 Speaker 1: Tarantino and his story and he's talking about how he 647 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,960 Speaker 1: didn't go to film school, but but he he kind 648 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,080 Speaker 1: of gave himself an education in it. And you gave 649 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:45,479 Speaker 1: yourself an education in many lego pieces at the movie theater. 650 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,200 Speaker 1: But then you did go to n y U Film School. 651 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,160 Speaker 1: So what what was it like, you know, I mean 652 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,319 Speaker 1: just over the GW but like moving from Teaneck into 653 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:58,400 Speaker 1: the city going to n y U. Were you making 654 00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:01,640 Speaker 1: movies there where you still watching a ton of movies? 655 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:05,279 Speaker 1: Is is there some really important lesson from that time 656 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:09,279 Speaker 1: period that still stands out to you? Well, I'm you know, 657 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 1: I'm really glad that I went to n y U. 658 00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:15,040 Speaker 1: First off, the experience of living in the city was incredible. 659 00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:17,839 Speaker 1: Like I said, we were you know, we were a 660 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,960 Speaker 1: solid middle class family, but of relatively limited means. So 661 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:24,200 Speaker 1: I had to graduate. We only had the money to 662 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:25,480 Speaker 1: go to for me to go to n y U 663 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:29,239 Speaker 1: for three years. And uh so I graduated in three 664 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,520 Speaker 1: years just as a result of taking like massive amount 665 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:35,600 Speaker 1: of credits. And um so I wish that I had 666 00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:38,560 Speaker 1: gone there for four years because I do think that 667 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:45,520 Speaker 1: the experience of you know, of living independently amongst like 668 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:50,080 Speaker 1: minded people with common interests from the ages of eighteen 669 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,720 Speaker 1: to twenty one or twenty two, like, that's a really 670 00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:59,799 Speaker 1: incredible thing. You know, the opportunity you may you may 671 00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:01,920 Speaker 1: have been defined in a certain way when you went 672 00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,759 Speaker 1: to high school. You start to become a reflection of 673 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:09,080 Speaker 1: the way that others see you, and that can that 674 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:12,440 Speaker 1: can trap you in all sorts of ways. Um I 675 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,400 Speaker 1: I feel like I found my people in high school, 676 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 1: um and so at least I had a better sense 677 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:21,200 Speaker 1: of who I was, um in terms of my own 678 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:26,480 Speaker 1: personal identity moving into college. But I the older I get, 679 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:28,920 Speaker 1: the more I realized like what a special thing that was. 680 00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,120 Speaker 1: And I think college was an opportunity was so specifically 681 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:37,280 Speaker 1: curated to say, you know, it's n y U Film School. 682 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:41,279 Speaker 1: Here's two hundred and fifty people who are from all 683 00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:44,480 Speaker 1: over the country, but they're all into almost exactly the 684 00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,839 Speaker 1: same stuff that you are. And you're just gonna sit 685 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:51,560 Speaker 1: in rooms with these people all day, both formally and informally, 686 00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:55,680 Speaker 1: and you know, and so the classes are great because 687 00:41:56,080 --> 00:42:00,400 Speaker 1: you're seeing movies that you know that you traditionally wouldn't 688 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:03,600 Speaker 1: have seen foreign movies, probably for the first time, and 689 00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:07,840 Speaker 1: certainly you know, classic films. But then like you know, 690 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:11,560 Speaker 1: I remember Barton Fink came out during my My My 691 00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:15,680 Speaker 1: n y U orientation in September of ninety one, and 692 00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:19,520 Speaker 1: so a bunch of us were just huge Cone Brothers fans, 693 00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:23,120 Speaker 1: and we just went to the Angelica in the village 694 00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:27,399 Speaker 1: and watched Barton Fink and then afterwards we went into 695 00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:30,600 Speaker 1: like we went to somebody's like dorm room and talked 696 00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:33,200 Speaker 1: about it for three hours. And then and then somebody 697 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,960 Speaker 1: had a laser disc of Blood simple and you know, 698 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,439 Speaker 1: and we we we watched it and so and so 699 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:45,480 Speaker 1: I think that idea of just basically surrounding yourself with 700 00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:50,239 Speaker 1: others who love what you love. UM, was was of 701 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 1: tremendous benefit to to me. Um and just the energy 702 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:57,960 Speaker 1: did I make movies? Yeah, like I mean UM. I 703 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:01,000 Speaker 1: think that I went into and Why You wanting to 704 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:05,600 Speaker 1: be a writer director and emerged from ny U with 705 00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,000 Speaker 1: the knowledge that I was not a good director, but 706 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:12,480 Speaker 1: I was I was an okay writer um and uh. 707 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:15,680 Speaker 1: But also you learn how to do everything. So you 708 00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:19,360 Speaker 1: learn how to do sound um, and sound mixing and 709 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:24,320 Speaker 1: sound editing and sound recording, and you learn how about 710 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,719 Speaker 1: the camera and the lenses and the lighting. And so 711 00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:34,240 Speaker 1: I think that although I UM, I couldn't walk onto 712 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:39,360 Speaker 1: a set right now and um and be a competent gaffer, 713 00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:43,239 Speaker 1: I have an appreciation for what the gaffers do because 714 00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:46,080 Speaker 1: I did it UM, and I under you know. I 715 00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:48,600 Speaker 1: know that there are directors or even producers who are like, 716 00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:50,920 Speaker 1: why is it taking so long? Why is it taking 717 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:52,960 Speaker 1: forty five minutes for us to get this shop? I 718 00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,879 Speaker 1: know why, you know? And so I think that the 719 00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:59,640 Speaker 1: experience of having done it all and learned it all. 720 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:05,440 Speaker 1: Unfortunately I went I went to m y U between 721 00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:09,800 Speaker 1: which was the year was the year before they went digital, 722 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,960 Speaker 1: so we were still shooting all of our projects on film. 723 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:16,000 Speaker 1: You would send them to Kodak, they'd be developed on film. 724 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,759 Speaker 1: We would cut on a steamback you know machine with 725 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:24,600 Speaker 1: literal a razor blade and tape to make edits. And god, 726 00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:27,400 Speaker 1: it's so romantic to be recorded our sound on a 727 00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:31,120 Speaker 1: niagara um uh you know which was that? And you 728 00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:34,440 Speaker 1: had to sink it and it was like it was 729 00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:42,360 Speaker 1: unbelievably you know, complicated and then rendered entirely not just antiquated, 730 00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:44,040 Speaker 1: but it was like all of those skills that I 731 00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:48,040 Speaker 1: had learned were dinosaurs. They just did they were. It 732 00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:51,960 Speaker 1: was like it was irrelevant as the digital age basically 733 00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:55,400 Speaker 1: like washed over us. But I did have a laptop 734 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,840 Speaker 1: and and so writing you know that that didn't that 735 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,600 Speaker 1: didn't change um and uh so a lot of the 736 00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,400 Speaker 1: skills that I that I learned, you know what is 737 00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:14,320 Speaker 1: now close to thirty years ago. UM in college um 738 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:18,200 Speaker 1: are are are on antiquated equipment that nobody uses anymore. 739 00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:23,879 Speaker 1: But the but the experience of the tactile nature of 740 00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:28,560 Speaker 1: of editing UM Like, it's something that I that is 741 00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:31,120 Speaker 1: very romantic to me. I think it's sort of like 742 00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:34,840 Speaker 1: you can you know, you can make soup in a 743 00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:37,839 Speaker 1: food processor but there but but you can also like 744 00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:42,759 Speaker 1: chop the vegetables yourself, like um uh. And I think 745 00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:47,960 Speaker 1: that there's something to be said for process um uh 746 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:52,160 Speaker 1: that I that I really appreciate. And and and so 747 00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:56,359 Speaker 1: when you hear people like Christopher Nolan, you know, talk 748 00:45:56,400 --> 00:46:01,440 Speaker 1: about the film, you know, actual shooting things on film, 749 00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:06,080 Speaker 1: and the argument basically like devolves into well how does 750 00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:09,279 Speaker 1: it look? And you know, the digital is so good 751 00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:11,920 Speaker 1: now and and digital processing is so good now that 752 00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:14,520 Speaker 1: I challenge you, Christopher Nolan, you wouldn't even be able 753 00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:16,960 Speaker 1: to tell the difference between something that you shot him 754 00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:21,080 Speaker 1: a seventy millimeter camera, um and and something that that 755 00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:25,200 Speaker 1: we render digitally. And that that's besides the point. There's 756 00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:28,439 Speaker 1: just something to be said for the tactile nature of 757 00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:30,960 Speaker 1: of the way that it used to be done, and 758 00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:36,160 Speaker 1: it slows the process down a bit um but it's 759 00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:39,840 Speaker 1: um but it's it's you can't argue with the result. 760 00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:42,560 Speaker 1: I mean, Christopher Nolan has yet to make a bad movie, 761 00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:45,000 Speaker 1: so I guess we can we can start giving him 762 00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:47,520 Speaker 1: a hard time when it makes a bad movie. I 763 00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:51,319 Speaker 1: think it makes me nostalgic too, because you know, when 764 00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,440 Speaker 1: I got my first show, we were shooting on the 765 00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:57,680 Speaker 1: film and I just I did. I loved what it 766 00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:00,759 Speaker 1: looked like. I loved all the tactile elements to it. 767 00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:05,360 Speaker 1: And I think it feels so emotional for me because 768 00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:08,520 Speaker 1: I grew up here in l A and my dad, 769 00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:11,840 Speaker 1: you know, until he retired, was a photographer and I 770 00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:13,400 Speaker 1: had to work for Yeah, I had to work for 771 00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:16,200 Speaker 1: him every summer, and I had to run film. And 772 00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:18,319 Speaker 1: his studio was across the street from the A and 773 00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:22,080 Speaker 1: I Lab on Highland, and I would run film over there, 774 00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:25,799 Speaker 1: back and forth all day, and my dad taught me 775 00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:29,040 Speaker 1: how to edit Mammy, a three by five film. I 776 00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:31,000 Speaker 1: would sit there with a yellow grease pencil and a 777 00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:33,360 Speaker 1: loop on a light box, and he would say, I 778 00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:35,000 Speaker 1: want you to go through and edit these. Tell me 779 00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:37,160 Speaker 1: why they're good, tell me why they're bad, you know, 780 00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:39,439 Speaker 1: pick the best photos. And then he'd take a red 781 00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:41,759 Speaker 1: grease pencil and go over my edits and show me 782 00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:45,000 Speaker 1: his edits. And it was like this cool thing where 783 00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:46,920 Speaker 1: he'd say, did you notice this? Do you see what 784 00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:49,120 Speaker 1: this person's face is doing here? And look at this 785 00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:53,680 Speaker 1: thing and and you know, retouching back then was insane. 786 00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:58,319 Speaker 1: I mean it was painting and and so I don't know, 787 00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:00,520 Speaker 1: I get it. It's like it was a slower process, 788 00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:05,560 Speaker 1: but there was something more precious about it. It's when 789 00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,200 Speaker 1: it was when it was less easy to capture everything. 790 00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:12,359 Speaker 1: What you captured really was so intentional. Yeah, this is 791 00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:16,560 Speaker 1: this isn't to say that, um, that it sucks now. 792 00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:21,320 Speaker 1: I think that the you know, the great news about 793 00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:23,680 Speaker 1: where we are now is that anybody can become an 794 00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:26,000 Speaker 1: expert if they're willing to put in the time. And 795 00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:29,919 Speaker 1: I think it's it's awesome that the things that used 796 00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:33,280 Speaker 1: to take you and your father hours, if not days 797 00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:38,240 Speaker 1: to accomplish can now be done in seconds on an app. Um, 798 00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:43,160 Speaker 1: because it's that because it's because of access. Right, it 799 00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:45,840 Speaker 1: used to be that only you, like you had to 800 00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:49,520 Speaker 1: buy all of this equipment in order to be able 801 00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:53,400 Speaker 1: to do that. Now anybody, you know, it's download one 802 00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:55,600 Speaker 1: of these apps or or something like that. And so 803 00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:58,879 Speaker 1: I think that the ID you know that that that's 804 00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:02,480 Speaker 1: a wonderful thing. And but I but I do think 805 00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:08,160 Speaker 1: that it's like you know, taking time with something you know, um, 806 00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:11,799 Speaker 1: you know, doing it slowly, it does it does put 807 00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:14,960 Speaker 1: you in a zone that is um that is much 808 00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,000 Speaker 1: different than the zone that we're used to. Now. We 809 00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:21,480 Speaker 1: shot Lost, you know, all six seasons of it on film, 810 00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:26,640 Speaker 1: and and so it would take UM, it would it 811 00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:30,080 Speaker 1: would take thirty six hours of turnaround between when the 812 00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:33,640 Speaker 1: canisters were sent from Hawaii back to l A to 813 00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:37,399 Speaker 1: digitize them into the Avid when we could edit, and 814 00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:40,600 Speaker 1: multiple times over the course of those six years, the 815 00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:46,120 Speaker 1: negative was exposed UM in transit, and so we would 816 00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:48,239 Speaker 1: have I would have to call up Matthew Fox and 817 00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:51,840 Speaker 1: be like, dude, the good news is you were great yesterday. 818 00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:55,560 Speaker 1: The bad news is it's gone. It's gone. We don't 819 00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:59,960 Speaker 1: have it. It's gone. And I think that is insane 820 00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:03,520 Speaker 1: making is that is it's it's devastating for the entire 821 00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:06,680 Speaker 1: crew when they hear something like that happens. But it's 822 00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:10,640 Speaker 1: also like you hold the film with a certain degree 823 00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:13,800 Speaker 1: of preciousness, you know, where it's sort of like, oh, 824 00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:16,640 Speaker 1: you know, check the gate, check the gate so that 825 00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:19,680 Speaker 1: there weren't any light leaks. So there is this kind 826 00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:21,799 Speaker 1: of like delicacy in terms of the way that you're 827 00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:26,280 Speaker 1: handling everything that I that I certainly miss UM again, 828 00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:30,120 Speaker 1: you know, a generation from now, no one will be 829 00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:36,280 Speaker 1: alive working in this medium who remembered shooting stuff on film. 830 00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:39,000 Speaker 1: Everybody will have come into the business at a time 831 00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:44,080 Speaker 1: when that isn't really done anymore. But but you can't 832 00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:47,880 Speaker 1: argue with the results. Well, and and to your point, 833 00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:52,880 Speaker 1: it's there's nostalgia and there's innovation, and both matter. You know, 834 00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:56,080 Speaker 1: how cool is it that any kid anywhere who has 835 00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:59,560 Speaker 1: a smartphone can be a filmmaker? Now? It is. It's 836 00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:01,920 Speaker 1: it's close thing. Ever, I mean, it doesn't mean that 837 00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:04,080 Speaker 1: all of them should be making movies, but I'm glad 838 00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:05,960 Speaker 1: that all I'm glad that all of them are trying. 839 00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:12,680 Speaker 1: So what happens after n y U you graduate in 840 00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:15,120 Speaker 1: three years. You talked about how you moved to those fields. 841 00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:19,480 Speaker 1: Bulk fiction rocked your world. How do you start working because, 842 00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:22,319 Speaker 1: as you mentioned, we get to a point where you 843 00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:27,200 Speaker 1: make six seasons of Lost. So what's going on in between? Well, 844 00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:30,640 Speaker 1: I mean, so I'm twenty one when I moved out 845 00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:36,200 Speaker 1: to Los Angeles and I meet j J. When I Jessh, 846 00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:39,280 Speaker 1: I my thirtieth birthday. Around the time of my thirtieth birthday, 847 00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:42,839 Speaker 1: so that's nine years. It's a long time. Um, so 848 00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:46,600 Speaker 1: how do you guys meet we? Um. I was obsessed 849 00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:49,360 Speaker 1: with Alias the show and Felicity, the two shows that 850 00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:54,880 Speaker 1: he did before Lost and and by by then I 851 00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:59,520 Speaker 1: was I was. I was a working television writer for 852 00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:04,080 Speaker 1: for close to five four or five years and um, 853 00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:09,240 Speaker 1: and so I had a friend, UM named Heather Caden, 854 00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:13,799 Speaker 1: who was an executive at ABC, and she knew how 855 00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:17,759 Speaker 1: I felt about Alias. And I was trying to get 856 00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:20,479 Speaker 1: me a meeting with JJ so that he would hire 857 00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:24,080 Speaker 1: me on Alias. And the timing, the timing was never 858 00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:26,600 Speaker 1: working out because I was under contract for this show 859 00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:30,080 Speaker 1: that I was writing for NBC at the time. And 860 00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:34,080 Speaker 1: so finally, you know, I was my deal was about 861 00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:37,080 Speaker 1: to end, but there were no job availabilities on Alias. 862 00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:42,360 Speaker 1: Heather called me and said, UM, look, we're developing the 863 00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:46,000 Speaker 1: show about a plane crash that Lloyd Braun, who was 864 00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:48,640 Speaker 1: the head of ABC at the time, was very passionate about. 865 00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:53,719 Speaker 1: We we we we developed a pilot with Aaron Spelling. Um. 866 00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:57,239 Speaker 1: For those listeners who aren't unfamiliar without Aaron Spelling. He's 867 00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:01,080 Speaker 1: a massive figure in the television business, particularly in the 868 00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:05,120 Speaker 1: nine eighties. But um, you know, all the all the 869 00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:09,560 Speaker 1: nighttime soaps, but then more in a more contemporary setting 870 00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:12,360 Speaker 1: nine O two on Oh and melrose Place, and but 871 00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:15,400 Speaker 1: a very odd fit for the Plane Crash show. And 872 00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:19,040 Speaker 1: so they were they were throwing out the spelling version 873 00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:22,640 Speaker 1: of the of the script and we're soliciting j J 874 00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:26,280 Speaker 1: too take a spin at it. And he was running 875 00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:31,560 Speaker 1: ALIAS full time. It was also developing another pilot about 876 00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:34,319 Speaker 1: bounty Hunters. So he said to ABC, if you can 877 00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:38,640 Speaker 1: get me someone to supervise, I would consider, but you know, 878 00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:43,200 Speaker 1: executive producing the plane crash idea. And so Heathery called. 879 00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:45,360 Speaker 1: Heathery called me up and said, you can come in 880 00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:47,440 Speaker 1: and talk to JJ about this, but it's really just 881 00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:48,920 Speaker 1: a way for him to get to know you so 882 00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:52,719 Speaker 1: that he'll hire you on ALIAS. And I said, but 883 00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:54,759 Speaker 1: he's not gonna hire me on ALIAS unless I have 884 00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:57,840 Speaker 1: ideas for the plane Crash show. Like that's going to 885 00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:00,120 Speaker 1: have to be the way. That's the only way that 886 00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:02,640 Speaker 1: I can impress him. So she said, yeah, okay, like 887 00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:06,279 Speaker 1: do your best. And so he and I met on 888 00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:10,040 Speaker 1: a Monday afternoon and talked for two hours and it 889 00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:13,360 Speaker 1: was you know, back to the fandom conversation. Is I 890 00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:16,600 Speaker 1: was such a huge fan of his and was was 891 00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:20,120 Speaker 1: very nervous about this meeting, but he immediately treated me 892 00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:25,040 Speaker 1: like we were partners, which was very strange and wonderful 893 00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:30,160 Speaker 1: and um and kind and generous. And then after that 894 00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:33,040 Speaker 1: two hours he was like, you know, do you want 895 00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:36,600 Speaker 1: to can you come back tomorrow? And uh, And I said, 896 00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:39,160 Speaker 1: I have a full time job. I'm writing, I'm a 897 00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:42,919 Speaker 1: writer producer on this other show, but I can come 898 00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:46,279 Speaker 1: over at night, you know, when we wrap. So basically 899 00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:49,480 Speaker 1: from Tuesday to Friday night, I worked with j J 900 00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:53,160 Speaker 1: and a couple of the Elias writer producers UM from 901 00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:56,799 Speaker 1: like seven pm to one am, UM, and then on 902 00:54:56,800 --> 00:55:00,760 Speaker 1: Friday night, Friday night, we delivered this outline to ABC. 903 00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:05,959 Speaker 1: And then on Saturday morning, Lloyd Braun called me at home. 904 00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:08,359 Speaker 1: I had never spoken to him before, and he was like, 905 00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:12,640 Speaker 1: we're making this show. And that was the first week 906 00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:17,719 Speaker 1: of February of two thousand and four, and then we 907 00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:22,360 Speaker 1: delivered the pilot, the two hour completed shot pilot. We 908 00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:29,040 Speaker 1: shot a two hour pilot UM the UH this week. 909 00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:31,680 Speaker 1: It was the end of April. On my birthday is 910 00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:34,880 Speaker 1: on ap so it was the day after my birthday April. 911 00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:39,040 Speaker 1: We wrapped in Hawaii and then we had about five 912 00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:42,160 Speaker 1: days to edit what was essentially a movie, and then 913 00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:45,719 Speaker 1: we delivered it to ABC. So it was thirteen weeks 914 00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:52,360 Speaker 1: from meeting JJ two here's the two hour thing. Um. 915 00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:56,960 Speaker 1: And then obviously my life changed quite radically. But to 916 00:55:57,080 --> 00:55:59,600 Speaker 1: back up and tell the story out of order, the 917 00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:04,440 Speaker 1: first five years of my l a existence, where was 918 00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:09,280 Speaker 1: me saying this is a business, Like the art part 919 00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:11,719 Speaker 1: is going to be hard enough. I want to make 920 00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:14,480 Speaker 1: cool stories. I want to make art. I want to 921 00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:17,160 Speaker 1: make movies and TV shows. I want to write, but 922 00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:20,279 Speaker 1: this is a business. And the one thing that they 923 00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:24,319 Speaker 1: didn't really teach me at n YU was that it's 924 00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:28,200 Speaker 1: an industry, you know, and so what how do I 925 00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:32,040 Speaker 1: How can I learn how it works? You know? This? 926 00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:36,319 Speaker 1: Keep hearing the word industry, like what does that mean? 927 00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:40,560 Speaker 1: And so the first year I was out here, um, 928 00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:43,879 Speaker 1: I worked at an agency at first, starting in their 929 00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:48,880 Speaker 1: mail room and uh um. And then I put on 930 00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:51,359 Speaker 1: an agent's desk and he was a literary agent, and 931 00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:55,680 Speaker 1: so he represented writers and I got to read lots 932 00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:59,719 Speaker 1: and lots of scripts, and I also learned why did 933 00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:02,600 Speaker 1: the agent that I worked for, why did he sign 934 00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:06,359 Speaker 1: some writers and reject others? Um, why were some of 935 00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:09,480 Speaker 1: his writers getting jobs and others weren't? And he let 936 00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:12,359 Speaker 1: me listen in on all his calls and he was 937 00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:16,480 Speaker 1: selling agents or the intermediaries between the talent and the 938 00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:20,000 Speaker 1: buyers in this case, the studios. And so then I 939 00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:22,640 Speaker 1: became kind of enamored with the studios. I was like, 940 00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:26,360 Speaker 1: why are these guys what what are they thinking? So 941 00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:30,480 Speaker 1: then I went and worked for an executive at Paramount 942 00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:32,680 Speaker 1: and I did that for a year as his assistant, 943 00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:35,040 Speaker 1: and so I got to learn things from the from 944 00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:39,720 Speaker 1: the studio side, um, and that was quite fascinating. And 945 00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:44,120 Speaker 1: then but the but the but that felt I was like, 946 00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:46,000 Speaker 1: I don't want to wear a tie to work every day. 947 00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:48,960 Speaker 1: This is feeling very corporate to me, and I don't 948 00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:54,320 Speaker 1: want to be a studio executive. Um. So I got 949 00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:56,880 Speaker 1: a job as a creative executive for a producer on 950 00:57:56,920 --> 00:58:01,320 Speaker 1: the Paramount lot. This guy Alan Ladd Jr. Who and 951 00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:05,480 Speaker 1: MGM greenlit Star Wars Blade Runner. You know, he had 952 00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:08,240 Speaker 1: just won the Oscar for a Braveheart when I started 953 00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:12,360 Speaker 1: working for him, and so I got to learn how 954 00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:15,680 Speaker 1: to make and develop movies from from a from a 955 00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:18,960 Speaker 1: producer side. So kind of now I did a year 956 00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:23,200 Speaker 1: with an agent, a year with the studio executive. I 957 00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:28,040 Speaker 1: did two years working with Alan Ladd Jr. To learn 958 00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:32,400 Speaker 1: how to produce. All that time I was writing UM. 959 00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:35,760 Speaker 1: And I finally wrote a piece of material that UH, 960 00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:39,320 Speaker 1: that I thought didn't suck, and I entered it into 961 00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:44,320 Speaker 1: a screenwriting competition under a pseudonym, just in case anybody 962 00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:46,560 Speaker 1: that I knew read it and and it and it 963 00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:51,480 Speaker 1: got you know, fairly far along like um. There were 964 00:58:51,520 --> 00:58:54,440 Speaker 1: like five thousand submissions, and I got a letter saying, 965 00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:56,919 Speaker 1: you know, you've made the quarterfinals, and then another letter 966 00:58:56,960 --> 00:58:59,120 Speaker 1: saying you've made the semifinals. And I was like, okay, 967 00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:03,160 Speaker 1: so now there were five thousand submissions. I'm in the 968 00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:06,320 Speaker 1: top fifty. The next letter that I get is either 969 00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:08,280 Speaker 1: going to say you're a finalist or it's going to 970 00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:11,320 Speaker 1: say you're done. And if it says you're a finalist, 971 00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:14,320 Speaker 1: then good for me. But if it says you're done, 972 00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:18,360 Speaker 1: then I'm gonna then I'm going to ignore the positive 973 00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:21,200 Speaker 1: reinforcement of being in the top fifty. So I'm gonna 974 00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:24,120 Speaker 1: make my move right now. And I sent an email 975 00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:27,280 Speaker 1: to everybody that I befriended over the course of the 976 00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:29,800 Speaker 1: previous five years. And I said, I want to be 977 00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:31,240 Speaker 1: a writer, and I think I want to be a 978 00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:33,560 Speaker 1: television writer. And I know that no one's going to 979 00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:36,800 Speaker 1: hire me to do that. Um, but is there some 980 00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:40,040 Speaker 1: kind of apprenticeship like a p A, a writer's p 981 00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:45,080 Speaker 1: A or writer's assistant that I can be? And I'm I'm, 982 00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:48,200 Speaker 1: I'm you know, I'm smart and hard working, and I've 983 00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:52,520 Speaker 1: saved up enough money that you can underpay me wildly, 984 00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:57,000 Speaker 1: but I'm really hungry to do this and um. And 985 00:59:57,120 --> 00:59:59,919 Speaker 1: within about an hour of me sending that email out, 986 01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:04,560 Speaker 1: my friend Julie pleck Um emailed me back and she 987 01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:07,520 Speaker 1: was like, she was working for Kevin Williamson at the time. 988 01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:11,000 Speaker 1: He had just created a show after Dawson's Creek called 989 01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:14,360 Speaker 1: waste Land, and he and she was like, where, we 990 01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:16,640 Speaker 1: need a writer's assistant, but you need to start on Monday. 991 01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:20,360 Speaker 1: And this was a third like a Thursday afternoon. So 992 01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:23,640 Speaker 1: I went in, I spoke to Laddie. He said vikandios, 993 01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:26,280 Speaker 1: and then I started at Wasteland as the writer's assistant 994 01:00:26,320 --> 01:00:29,240 Speaker 1: that Monday. And that was that was the beginning of 995 01:00:29,280 --> 01:00:33,320 Speaker 1: my my my professional life as a as a television 996 01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:41,360 Speaker 1: writer and that was I want to say, and through 997 01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:45,920 Speaker 1: a series of of unfortunate events for a watch for Wasteland, 998 01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:49,240 Speaker 1: but fortunate events for me, I became a writer on 999 01:00:49,320 --> 01:00:52,080 Speaker 1: that show and got agents as a result of being 1000 01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:54,880 Speaker 1: on that show. Then it aired, it was quickly canceled, 1001 01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:59,800 Speaker 1: and so I had sort of like I had leveled up. 1002 01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:04,000 Speaker 1: I was unemployed. Unfortunately, I got hit hip pocketed by 1003 01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:07,480 Speaker 1: a couple of agents at CIA, and they got me 1004 01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:10,640 Speaker 1: a meeting with Carlton Ques, who would later become my mentor. 1005 01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:14,120 Speaker 1: And uh. He was running a show called Nash Bridges, 1006 01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:17,160 Speaker 1: starting Don Johnson, who I was obsessed with because I 1007 01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:22,320 Speaker 1: grew up with Miami Vice. And I binged two seasons 1008 01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:25,200 Speaker 1: of Nash Bridges back when you could only binge on 1009 01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:28,760 Speaker 1: video cassette. Uh, and I went in and interviewed for 1010 01:01:28,800 --> 01:01:30,880 Speaker 1: that job, and they offered it to me in the 1011 01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:33,640 Speaker 1: room and I took it, and so I I worked 1012 01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:37,560 Speaker 1: on the final season of Nash Bridges, and then after that, 1013 01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:40,000 Speaker 1: I worked for three years on the show called Crossing 1014 01:01:40,080 --> 01:01:45,680 Speaker 1: Jordan's which was NBC procedural with Jill Hennessy and mcguel Ferreire. 1015 01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:50,200 Speaker 1: And that was an incredible experience because again I learned 1016 01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:52,560 Speaker 1: a lot from the show runner, this guy Tim Kring 1017 01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:56,920 Speaker 1: and uh. But more importantly, that was a show that 1018 01:01:57,000 --> 01:02:00,000 Speaker 1: was beginning, So I came on right after the pilot 1019 01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:03,200 Speaker 1: it so Nash Bridges. I came on in season six. 1020 01:02:03,240 --> 01:02:06,320 Speaker 1: It was already it was a well oiled machine. To 1021 01:02:06,440 --> 01:02:09,320 Speaker 1: figure out how to every television show is like you're 1022 01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:13,600 Speaker 1: kind of building the machine as you as it's running. Um. 1023 01:02:13,720 --> 01:02:16,320 Speaker 1: That's why I think so many shows catastrophically fail in 1024 01:02:16,360 --> 01:02:19,800 Speaker 1: their first season, because you know, you have to lay 1025 01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:24,360 Speaker 1: the track in front of the locomotive and it never stops. UM. 1026 01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:27,880 Speaker 1: So I got that experience on on Crossing Jordan's and 1027 01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:30,920 Speaker 1: and Tim just gave me a tremendous amount of responsibility. 1028 01:02:31,040 --> 01:02:33,200 Speaker 1: So I got to spend a lot of time on 1029 01:02:33,240 --> 01:02:36,360 Speaker 1: the set and started working with the actors and um 1030 01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:38,920 Speaker 1: and figuring out how to how to get the budgets 1031 01:02:38,960 --> 01:02:41,680 Speaker 1: down and um. And he started putting me in the 1032 01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:44,280 Speaker 1: editing room and go and let me go to mixes, 1033 01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:48,880 Speaker 1: and so I really got to learn how to how 1034 01:02:48,920 --> 01:02:53,480 Speaker 1: to show run um under under Tim's tutelage. And so 1035 01:02:53,600 --> 01:02:55,960 Speaker 1: in the third year of Crossing Jordan's, that's when I 1036 01:02:56,000 --> 01:02:59,200 Speaker 1: got the call from Heather about meeting j J. And 1037 01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:03,000 Speaker 1: we are now add up to UM the you know, 1038 01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:07,080 Speaker 1: I'm now thirty and UM and lost happens, and you 1039 01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:09,960 Speaker 1: know I would not I would say I was. I'm 1040 01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:12,680 Speaker 1: not being self deprecating. I'm just telling you the God's 1041 01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:16,960 Speaker 1: honest truth. I was still woefully unprepared. I was still way, way, 1042 01:03:17,080 --> 01:03:21,640 Speaker 1: way not ready for for that. UM on every level imaginable. 1043 01:03:21,720 --> 01:03:25,080 Speaker 1: But you know, UM, I did it anyway it was. 1044 01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:29,320 Speaker 1: It was too late to stop the train at that point. Yeah, 1045 01:03:29,440 --> 01:03:34,280 Speaker 1: But I would also say that, how can you ever 1046 01:03:34,400 --> 01:03:36,840 Speaker 1: be prepared for something like that, you know, lost as 1047 01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:41,280 Speaker 1: a lightning in a bottle experience. I don't. I don't 1048 01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:47,800 Speaker 1: know how a person feels ready to do that. What 1049 01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:50,200 Speaker 1: What was it like? You know, because you talk about 1050 01:03:50,400 --> 01:03:54,840 Speaker 1: thirteen weeks from sitting down with j J to finishing 1051 01:03:54,880 --> 01:03:59,640 Speaker 1: the pilot. Happy birthday to you. What's it like the 1052 01:04:00,320 --> 01:04:03,640 Speaker 1: that it airs for the first time? Did you watch 1053 01:04:03,680 --> 01:04:08,360 Speaker 1: it live on TV? Or was it like too intense 1054 01:04:08,640 --> 01:04:12,160 Speaker 1: to do that? What's the experience? JJ had a party 1055 01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:15,800 Speaker 1: over at his house. UM and aired on a Wednesday 1056 01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:19,960 Speaker 1: night at eight o'clock, and at the time, ABC was 1057 01:04:20,040 --> 01:04:22,760 Speaker 1: the last place network in two thousand four, and then 1058 01:04:22,920 --> 01:04:26,320 Speaker 1: that's why they took a number of a big swings. 1059 01:04:26,920 --> 01:04:29,720 Speaker 1: The conventional thinking at the time was that people didn't 1060 01:04:29,720 --> 01:04:33,760 Speaker 1: want to watch serialized television shows. They wanted self contained, 1061 01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:38,000 Speaker 1: procedural dramas because that's what everybody was watching. And that 1062 01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:41,919 Speaker 1: year they did Desperate Housewives, Gray's Anatomy, and Lost all 1063 01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:45,680 Speaker 1: in the same year. We were the first show out 1064 01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:50,880 Speaker 1: of the gate to premiere and they do research to 1065 01:04:51,080 --> 01:04:55,040 Speaker 1: basically estimate what the audience is going to be and 1066 01:04:55,640 --> 01:04:59,200 Speaker 1: UM and so at JJ's party, Tom Sherman, who was 1067 01:04:59,240 --> 01:05:02,640 Speaker 1: an executivity see it was basically like, if we can 1068 01:05:02,680 --> 01:05:07,440 Speaker 1: get seven million people to watch the show tomorrow and 1069 01:05:07,520 --> 01:05:11,920 Speaker 1: we hold on to, you know, most of them, we 1070 01:05:12,040 --> 01:05:14,240 Speaker 1: may get a back nine. You know. We had we 1071 01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:23,360 Speaker 1: had a thirteen episode order mhm, and we we're like okay. 1072 01:05:23,480 --> 01:05:26,920 Speaker 1: And at that point we had written six of the 1073 01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:32,280 Speaker 1: thirteen episodes and I was very unhappy, um and overwhelmed 1074 01:05:32,440 --> 01:05:36,480 Speaker 1: with the logistics of running the show that was shooting 1075 01:05:36,520 --> 01:05:39,760 Speaker 1: in Hawaii, that had no sets, that had a massive 1076 01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:43,920 Speaker 1: cast and a serialized story and Jim that was largely 1077 01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:46,880 Speaker 1: mystery driven. And j J was gone. He was off 1078 01:05:47,520 --> 01:05:53,400 Speaker 1: prepping mission impossible. Uh, And so I was on my own. 1079 01:05:53,560 --> 01:05:56,800 Speaker 1: And I remember when Tom gave me that information, thinking 1080 01:05:57,400 --> 01:06:02,200 Speaker 1: I would be okay with I'm proud of the episodes 1081 01:06:02,240 --> 01:06:03,919 Speaker 1: that we made, but I'd be okay if the show 1082 01:06:03,960 --> 01:06:08,440 Speaker 1: gets canceled. The pilot's really cool and let's just be like, um, 1083 01:06:08,640 --> 01:06:11,000 Speaker 1: let's just be like a cult classic that never was. 1084 01:06:11,560 --> 01:06:15,040 Speaker 1: And then the next morning and like six thirty A 1085 01:06:15,120 --> 01:06:18,800 Speaker 1: and my phone rang, and I was like, immediately my 1086 01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:22,360 Speaker 1: heart started racing because I nobody calls you that early 1087 01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:26,120 Speaker 1: if the news is bad. And uh. And they were 1088 01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:32,120 Speaker 1: like seventeen million people watched the show last night and 1089 01:06:32,120 --> 01:06:35,960 Speaker 1: and it broke all the records that ABC had had. 1090 01:06:37,320 --> 01:06:40,000 Speaker 1: They would be broken again five nights later when Desperate 1091 01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:43,320 Speaker 1: Housewives premiere. But at the time it was like, and 1092 01:06:43,520 --> 01:06:45,760 Speaker 1: I've told the story before, but it's worth telling again. 1093 01:06:46,840 --> 01:06:50,920 Speaker 1: I kind of I went into the office and because 1094 01:06:50,920 --> 01:06:53,000 Speaker 1: we had to work, you know, I mean, we were like, 1095 01:06:53,840 --> 01:06:55,760 Speaker 1: you know, we're in the middle of it, and all 1096 01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:59,120 Speaker 1: these baskets of muffins started showing up, like people were 1097 01:06:59,160 --> 01:07:02,680 Speaker 1: just sending like like congratulated. That was like all the 1098 01:07:02,760 --> 01:07:05,160 Speaker 1: rage in two thousand four. People were just all spinning 1099 01:07:05,200 --> 01:07:09,320 Speaker 1: congratulatory muffins, and I was just Calton actually started working 1100 01:07:09,400 --> 01:07:12,400 Speaker 1: that week, so he had just come on to the 1101 01:07:12,400 --> 01:07:15,720 Speaker 1: show because I needed help, I needed a partner. And 1102 01:07:15,760 --> 01:07:18,480 Speaker 1: I went into his office and they were like, I 1103 01:07:18,520 --> 01:07:21,760 Speaker 1: swear to you, like eight baskets of muffins just sitting 1104 01:07:21,760 --> 01:07:24,240 Speaker 1: there with like these pretty bows on them. And I 1105 01:07:24,280 --> 01:07:27,280 Speaker 1: just started crying. And I was like, I don't want 1106 01:07:27,280 --> 01:07:29,400 Speaker 1: to make any more of these. We're just gonna have 1107 01:07:29,480 --> 01:07:34,400 Speaker 1: to granted to keep making these things forever. That's sevent 1108 01:07:34,720 --> 01:07:37,680 Speaker 1: million people. Oh my god. I it was just I 1109 01:07:37,680 --> 01:07:40,040 Speaker 1: couldn't even wrap my brain around that number. It's just 1110 01:07:40,080 --> 01:07:46,560 Speaker 1: so many people. I mean so many and and uh 1111 01:07:46,680 --> 01:07:50,520 Speaker 1: and he was like, well, I hear you. Let's go work, 1112 01:07:50,600 --> 01:07:54,560 Speaker 1: let's go break the story for episode eight. Um and uh. 1113 01:07:55,240 --> 01:08:00,360 Speaker 1: And thank god for that guy, because those were those 1114 01:08:00,360 --> 01:08:04,280 Speaker 1: were dark days. I mean, it feels like I'm not grateful. 1115 01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:09,720 Speaker 1: I am so grateful to lost for everything, but the 1116 01:08:10,560 --> 01:08:13,840 Speaker 1: I do feel like the story, this story is one 1117 01:08:13,920 --> 01:08:17,960 Speaker 1: that is when I talked to other colleagues who have 1118 01:08:18,080 --> 01:08:24,080 Speaker 1: enjoyed immense success, is not that unique because with the success, 1119 01:08:24,200 --> 01:08:26,840 Speaker 1: you know, we've always wanted success. But then when it 1120 01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:32,280 Speaker 1: actually comes that feeling in your body of oh, now, 1121 01:08:32,360 --> 01:08:39,479 Speaker 1: what is like? It's it can be quite terrifying, um. 1122 01:08:40,400 --> 01:08:43,720 Speaker 1: And so I feel like it's important to say that 1123 01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:47,759 Speaker 1: there was a lot of joy um that came later, 1124 01:08:48,680 --> 01:08:51,559 Speaker 1: or that I was experiencing the joy before the show 1125 01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:55,280 Speaker 1: actually aired. But that special time when you're making something 1126 01:08:55,360 --> 01:08:58,599 Speaker 1: just for you and your friends where you kind of 1127 01:08:58,600 --> 01:09:01,160 Speaker 1: pretend that no else is ever going to see it, 1128 01:09:01,240 --> 01:09:03,599 Speaker 1: even though you know that that's why they're giving you 1129 01:09:03,640 --> 01:09:05,479 Speaker 1: all this money to make it in the first place. 1130 01:09:06,200 --> 01:09:08,719 Speaker 1: But then then it's ready to go out there into 1131 01:09:08,720 --> 01:09:15,120 Speaker 1: the world. It's um, it's it's, it's it's it's paralyzings. 1132 01:09:15,600 --> 01:09:18,479 Speaker 1: You know, I've gotten used to it over time, but 1133 01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:20,920 Speaker 1: that that was just like the magnitude of it was 1134 01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:25,599 Speaker 1: too much. Well, and I think you know to your point, 1135 01:09:25,640 --> 01:09:29,559 Speaker 1: it's a both. And it can be incredibly gratifying, you 1136 01:09:29,600 --> 01:09:31,920 Speaker 1: can feel incredibly grateful, and it can be kind of 1137 01:09:31,960 --> 01:09:37,879 Speaker 1: traumatic and and nobody really thinks success, especially in our industry, 1138 01:09:37,880 --> 01:09:40,760 Speaker 1: could be traumatic. But the way that I've tried to 1139 01:09:40,800 --> 01:09:43,439 Speaker 1: explain it to people when I've had conversations about it 1140 01:09:43,479 --> 01:09:47,439 Speaker 1: is think about how crippling expectation can be in your family, 1141 01:09:48,280 --> 01:09:51,840 Speaker 1: or the expectation can be from your partner, or or 1142 01:09:51,920 --> 01:09:55,280 Speaker 1: expectation can be when you are, I don't know, getting 1143 01:09:55,280 --> 01:09:58,000 Speaker 1: a doctorate, or or doing some huge project at work. 1144 01:09:58,600 --> 01:10:02,200 Speaker 1: Imagine that amount of x spectation in your case from 1145 01:10:02,240 --> 01:10:07,280 Speaker 1: seventeen million people, Like that's enough to break your brain 1146 01:10:08,040 --> 01:10:11,040 Speaker 1: where you go, Okay, well, I know the pilot's really good, 1147 01:10:11,080 --> 01:10:13,040 Speaker 1: and I know these first six episodes are really good 1148 01:10:13,040 --> 01:10:15,640 Speaker 1: because we've just been making them. But now there's going 1149 01:10:15,680 --> 01:10:18,200 Speaker 1: to be these fan forums and chat rooms and everyone's 1150 01:10:18,200 --> 01:10:21,519 Speaker 1: going to have an opinion, and and how do I 1151 01:10:21,760 --> 01:10:26,960 Speaker 1: keep making something for the story rather than to try 1152 01:10:27,000 --> 01:10:30,800 Speaker 1: to use the metaphor you said earlier, keep laying that 1153 01:10:30,840 --> 01:10:32,760 Speaker 1: track in front of the train so that I keep 1154 01:10:32,800 --> 01:10:36,760 Speaker 1: meeting these people's expectation. How can I meet the expectation 1155 01:10:36,800 --> 01:10:39,639 Speaker 1: of seventeen million people who each have a different desire. 1156 01:10:40,280 --> 01:10:43,599 Speaker 1: It it's like it makes it makes me feel on 1157 01:10:43,640 --> 01:10:46,479 Speaker 1: my insides when we're talking about this like scrambled eggs, 1158 01:10:47,360 --> 01:10:52,080 Speaker 1: so I I feel for you immensely. It's like I'm 1159 01:10:52,160 --> 01:10:56,160 Speaker 1: giddy for you. And also I'm so scared of the 1160 01:10:56,280 --> 01:10:59,280 Speaker 1: thing that you're talking about and I and I have 1161 01:10:59,439 --> 01:11:02,120 Speaker 1: to tip my hat to you. You know, when we 1162 01:11:02,160 --> 01:11:04,599 Speaker 1: had that first conversation at the conference, I was like, Oh, 1163 01:11:04,640 --> 01:11:06,280 Speaker 1: I like that guy, Like I like the way he 1164 01:11:06,320 --> 01:11:08,000 Speaker 1: thinks about the world, and we're going to be friends. 1165 01:11:08,880 --> 01:11:13,599 Speaker 1: And and in researching for this, I was like, oh God, 1166 01:11:13,640 --> 01:11:17,719 Speaker 1: I really like this guy. Because you you have been 1167 01:11:18,040 --> 01:11:23,080 Speaker 1: on record so open about this, and and you you 1168 01:11:23,200 --> 01:11:26,120 Speaker 1: talked about in an interview you said something that I'd 1169 01:11:26,120 --> 01:11:28,240 Speaker 1: like to quote back to you that this was a 1170 01:11:28,360 --> 01:11:32,560 Speaker 1: profound disconnect from the universe, a total sort of exhaustion, 1171 01:11:33,479 --> 01:11:36,320 Speaker 1: a desire to not do anything, a loss of appetite. 1172 01:11:36,960 --> 01:11:39,200 Speaker 1: And you know, you go on to just talk about 1173 01:11:40,000 --> 01:11:44,639 Speaker 1: the idea of feeling so exposed, and you said it earlier, 1174 01:11:44,720 --> 01:11:46,760 Speaker 1: you know, and and and in this same interview you 1175 01:11:46,800 --> 01:11:50,200 Speaker 1: mentioned that that fear of the emperor has no clothes, 1176 01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:59,000 Speaker 1: and and I think it is profound to be so open. 1177 01:11:59,240 --> 01:12:03,800 Speaker 1: And I think it's specially if I can slow clap you, 1178 01:12:04,720 --> 01:12:08,680 Speaker 1: especially important for men in positions of immense success to 1179 01:12:08,840 --> 01:12:14,840 Speaker 1: talk about feelings and vulnerability, because there's this idea that like, yeah, bro, 1180 01:12:14,960 --> 01:12:19,360 Speaker 1: you fucking made it. Everything's great, and and it can 1181 01:12:19,400 --> 01:12:24,280 Speaker 1: make success in any relative experience that anyone listening might 1182 01:12:24,520 --> 01:12:30,120 Speaker 1: have it. Two that success can make you feel so lonely. 1183 01:12:30,760 --> 01:12:33,439 Speaker 1: So I just I really appreciate the way that you've 1184 01:12:33,479 --> 01:12:38,280 Speaker 1: been willing to be so open about the experience and 1185 01:12:38,320 --> 01:12:42,559 Speaker 1: the duality of it, like the excitement and they're like, Wow, 1186 01:12:42,600 --> 01:12:44,760 Speaker 1: I got everything I ever wanted, and I don't know 1187 01:12:44,800 --> 01:12:46,080 Speaker 1: if I want it. I don't know if I can 1188 01:12:46,120 --> 01:12:49,519 Speaker 1: hold it. Well. I really appreciate you saying all that, 1189 01:12:49,640 --> 01:12:55,559 Speaker 1: and I and I you know, I'm very I've become 1190 01:12:55,600 --> 01:12:58,320 Speaker 1: comfortable talking about it over time, just because I've talked 1191 01:12:58,360 --> 01:13:03,560 Speaker 1: about it so much. But I think that there's a 1192 01:13:03,640 --> 01:13:07,840 Speaker 1: legitimate reluctance to talk about it because you feel guilty 1193 01:13:07,960 --> 01:13:12,480 Speaker 1: about saying anything negative about that level of success. UM, 1194 01:13:12,560 --> 01:13:16,960 Speaker 1: because it certainly from the outside looking in. UM the 1195 01:13:17,080 --> 01:13:21,120 Speaker 1: idea of like understanding how lucky and blessed and unfortunate 1196 01:13:21,240 --> 01:13:23,720 Speaker 1: I am to have been able to achieve my dream. 1197 01:13:23,760 --> 01:13:27,400 Speaker 1: But I think that not enough. I wish that when 1198 01:13:27,400 --> 01:13:29,760 Speaker 1: it happened to me more people that have been we're 1199 01:13:29,800 --> 01:13:31,920 Speaker 1: talking about what happens on the other side of your 1200 01:13:31,960 --> 01:13:36,800 Speaker 1: dream and UM And because because it can be quite 1201 01:13:36,800 --> 01:13:40,839 Speaker 1: the debilitating if something if a specific goal is basically 1202 01:13:40,920 --> 01:13:43,760 Speaker 1: driving you, you know, if you're basically like, I'm going 1203 01:13:43,800 --> 01:13:47,519 Speaker 1: to climb Everest. You know, the story tends to end 1204 01:13:47,600 --> 01:13:52,920 Speaker 1: with you summiting Everest right the end. But for most people, 1205 01:13:54,360 --> 01:13:59,559 Speaker 1: the really interesting challenge begins with, Oh my god, I 1206 01:13:59,680 --> 01:14:03,080 Speaker 1: trained for this thing. I I committed, I made all 1207 01:14:03,080 --> 01:14:07,320 Speaker 1: these sacrifices for this. Now now what am I now 1208 01:14:07,360 --> 01:14:11,080 Speaker 1: that I've done it? What am I supposed to do? Um? 1209 01:14:11,120 --> 01:14:15,439 Speaker 1: You know what am I? I basically achieved my life's 1210 01:14:15,479 --> 01:14:21,040 Speaker 1: ambition at the age of thirty, like times a hundred. 1211 01:14:21,400 --> 01:14:24,559 Speaker 1: Like I had never imagined that it would be scaled 1212 01:14:24,600 --> 01:14:27,080 Speaker 1: in the way that, so everything everything else is just 1213 01:14:27,120 --> 01:14:31,880 Speaker 1: going to be less than this. I've never done Heroin. Um, 1214 01:14:31,920 --> 01:14:35,320 Speaker 1: but my understanding of the heroin addiction. I used to 1215 01:14:35,320 --> 01:14:41,360 Speaker 1: be a cigarette smoker, so tobacco is nicotine is pretty addictive. 1216 01:14:41,400 --> 01:14:44,280 Speaker 1: But people say that the first high that you get 1217 01:14:44,280 --> 01:14:47,439 Speaker 1: off at Heroin, that every subsequent time you do it 1218 01:14:47,479 --> 01:14:52,160 Speaker 1: is basically kind of chasing that initial feeling. And I'm 1219 01:14:52,160 --> 01:14:56,280 Speaker 1: basically like, that is that what my life is now 1220 01:14:56,400 --> 01:14:58,840 Speaker 1: going to be? Like I'm just sort of trying to 1221 01:14:58,920 --> 01:15:02,840 Speaker 1: iterate the feeling that I had when, you know, when 1222 01:15:02,840 --> 01:15:04,960 Speaker 1: I walked out of JJ's office for the first time, 1223 01:15:05,400 --> 01:15:07,479 Speaker 1: and he said to me, do you want to do 1224 01:15:07,520 --> 01:15:10,200 Speaker 1: this together? And I suddenly realized I was at the 1225 01:15:10,240 --> 01:15:15,080 Speaker 1: top of Everest, like I was, I was actually there, um, 1226 01:15:15,120 --> 01:15:16,880 Speaker 1: And so I was like, I'm going to talk about that, 1227 01:15:17,080 --> 01:15:19,559 Speaker 1: and I'm gonna you know, this is just one person's 1228 01:15:19,560 --> 01:15:23,320 Speaker 1: experience and um, because the story that you hear is 1229 01:15:23,520 --> 01:15:25,680 Speaker 1: that I'm supposed to kind of stump my chest and 1230 01:15:26,400 --> 01:15:28,759 Speaker 1: you know, and be humble about it, but just talk about, 1231 01:15:29,240 --> 01:15:31,760 Speaker 1: you know, how great and awesome it is, and it is, 1232 01:15:32,040 --> 01:15:34,880 Speaker 1: you know, it is. It is great and awesome, you know. 1233 01:15:35,160 --> 01:15:39,080 Speaker 1: Like I talked about how exciting it was to be 1234 01:15:39,160 --> 01:15:44,000 Speaker 1: making lost all the time, uh, particularly during the first 1235 01:15:44,400 --> 01:15:47,880 Speaker 1: year of it. Um. But as time went on, I 1236 01:15:47,920 --> 01:15:51,040 Speaker 1: felt like it was really important to start to message 1237 01:15:51,120 --> 01:15:54,960 Speaker 1: the other part two, even knowing that there would be 1238 01:15:55,000 --> 01:16:00,760 Speaker 1: people out there who said or damon or poor, poor 1239 01:16:01,120 --> 01:16:04,800 Speaker 1: multimillionaire who has achieved all of his dreams. At first, 1240 01:16:04,800 --> 01:16:08,719 Speaker 1: I'd be like, it's not multi it's barely millionaire, and 1241 01:16:09,000 --> 01:16:12,559 Speaker 1: I have to pay taxes on that money and it's 1242 01:16:12,640 --> 01:16:15,080 Speaker 1: just money. You know, money is important and it gets 1243 01:16:15,080 --> 01:16:17,559 Speaker 1: you a lot of great things. But like, you know, 1244 01:16:17,760 --> 01:16:20,479 Speaker 1: I want to I want to communicate how I'm feeling 1245 01:16:20,680 --> 01:16:23,000 Speaker 1: on the inside. And I was very careful not to 1246 01:16:23,080 --> 01:16:27,280 Speaker 1: use the word depression because I think that there's there's 1247 01:16:27,320 --> 01:16:30,800 Speaker 1: a you know, this was situational. This this depression, it 1248 01:16:30,920 --> 01:16:33,280 Speaker 1: was very specific to what was happening at that moment 1249 01:16:33,320 --> 01:16:36,320 Speaker 1: in time of my life. People who really struggle with depression, 1250 01:16:36,840 --> 01:16:39,760 Speaker 1: that is that that's something that's happening independent of what's 1251 01:16:39,800 --> 01:16:44,640 Speaker 1: happening externally. Um. But I was sad, and I was 1252 01:16:44,720 --> 01:16:48,519 Speaker 1: experiencing the symptoms of depression as you described, you know, 1253 01:16:49,320 --> 01:16:53,080 Speaker 1: not sleeping, loss of appetite, you know, uh, like I 1254 01:16:53,520 --> 01:16:56,000 Speaker 1: felt like there was cotton in my ears. You know, 1255 01:16:56,200 --> 01:17:00,960 Speaker 1: everybody sounded a little bit muffled, um and uh. And 1256 01:17:01,000 --> 01:17:06,200 Speaker 1: I didn't want to medicate because I sort of felt like, I, 1257 01:17:06,200 --> 01:17:09,200 Speaker 1: if I know what the problem is and it's not chemical, 1258 01:17:09,439 --> 01:17:14,360 Speaker 1: then I shouldn't be taking you know, uh, pills so 1259 01:17:14,400 --> 01:17:16,360 Speaker 1: that I can go in and write episodes of lost. 1260 01:17:16,800 --> 01:17:19,519 Speaker 1: Like that sounds upside down. So I do want to 1261 01:17:19,520 --> 01:17:25,720 Speaker 1: be very careful about talking about what was happening, um 1262 01:17:25,920 --> 01:17:29,840 Speaker 1: for me, at least clinically, and not not confusing that 1263 01:17:29,960 --> 01:17:34,000 Speaker 1: but more importantly, like and this isn't saying like don't 1264 01:17:34,040 --> 01:17:36,960 Speaker 1: don't be successful kids. It sucks. It's the greatest thing 1265 01:17:36,960 --> 01:17:41,599 Speaker 1: in the world. It really, It's like they're there. There's 1266 01:17:41,640 --> 01:17:44,040 Speaker 1: there's just there's emotional components to it that I think 1267 01:17:44,080 --> 01:17:46,800 Speaker 1: not I'm not people discussed, And I think because we 1268 01:17:46,840 --> 01:17:50,280 Speaker 1: don't discuss them, people feel so ill equipped when they happen. 1269 01:17:51,360 --> 01:17:55,680 Speaker 1: You know, one of the sort of great adventures of 1270 01:17:55,720 --> 01:17:58,360 Speaker 1: my life experience in the last couple of years has 1271 01:17:58,400 --> 01:18:00,840 Speaker 1: been this. The way I think about it is almost 1272 01:18:00,880 --> 01:18:04,839 Speaker 1: in a metaphor of of a complete circumference of a circle. 1273 01:18:05,640 --> 01:18:08,000 Speaker 1: And I think so many of us have been encouraged 1274 01:18:08,160 --> 01:18:11,519 Speaker 1: in the sphere of our life to really hold onto 1275 01:18:11,560 --> 01:18:15,679 Speaker 1: and identify with the positive, the successful, to make those 1276 01:18:15,720 --> 01:18:18,320 Speaker 1: things our identity. But if we turn our backs on 1277 01:18:18,720 --> 01:18:22,400 Speaker 1: the other portion of this sphere, we're not wholly embodied. 1278 01:18:23,160 --> 01:18:25,600 Speaker 1: And I think the more people can show up in 1279 01:18:25,640 --> 01:18:28,800 Speaker 1: a whole way and say this was the totality of 1280 01:18:28,800 --> 01:18:31,800 Speaker 1: my experience, this was the stuff I expected, the joy 1281 01:18:32,040 --> 01:18:35,160 Speaker 1: at succeeding, This was the stuff I was completely ill 1282 01:18:35,200 --> 01:18:36,960 Speaker 1: equipped for. That like hit me in the back of 1283 01:18:36,960 --> 01:18:41,200 Speaker 1: the head with the depression and anxiety. You know. Then 1284 01:18:41,240 --> 01:18:44,360 Speaker 1: then when it happens to someone else, they're less surprised. 1285 01:18:44,640 --> 01:18:48,200 Speaker 1: I went through this recently with a friend who had 1286 01:18:48,240 --> 01:18:50,960 Speaker 1: a baby, and she was like, you know, I didn't 1287 01:18:50,960 --> 01:18:53,160 Speaker 1: even realize that society just told me that I was 1288 01:18:53,200 --> 01:18:55,000 Speaker 1: going to have this baby and be so happy and 1289 01:18:55,040 --> 01:18:57,559 Speaker 1: so fulfilled and like everything was going to be perfect. 1290 01:18:58,080 --> 01:19:00,360 Speaker 1: She's like, guess what. I still have anxiety, I'm still 1291 01:19:00,400 --> 01:19:03,000 Speaker 1: stressed out, I still fight with my husband sometimes. She's like, 1292 01:19:03,040 --> 01:19:06,000 Speaker 1: and my fucking baby doesn't sleep and it's incredibly stressful. 1293 01:19:06,280 --> 01:19:08,439 Speaker 1: And I love my baby, but nobody told me that 1294 01:19:08,520 --> 01:19:10,799 Speaker 1: I was also maybe going to have a nervous breakdown 1295 01:19:10,800 --> 01:19:14,960 Speaker 1: because this is so hard and and she's wound up 1296 01:19:15,000 --> 01:19:19,160 Speaker 1: talking to all these other young moms who are opening 1297 01:19:19,240 --> 01:19:21,400 Speaker 1: up about this stuff and getting more frank about it, 1298 01:19:21,439 --> 01:19:26,360 Speaker 1: and and that has been such a solace for her. 1299 01:19:27,439 --> 01:19:32,120 Speaker 1: And so I guess that's why I I lean into 1300 01:19:32,439 --> 01:19:35,320 Speaker 1: people who really want to share the full circumference of 1301 01:19:35,360 --> 01:19:40,200 Speaker 1: their experience, because I think it's I think it's universal, 1302 01:19:40,320 --> 01:19:43,080 Speaker 1: even though the elements are different, and I think it 1303 01:19:43,160 --> 01:19:48,920 Speaker 1: can really be something that heals not just the person 1304 01:19:48,960 --> 01:19:51,360 Speaker 1: who's getting honest, but everyone around them who has the 1305 01:19:51,400 --> 01:19:55,920 Speaker 1: opportunity to to learn from something real yeah, I think 1306 01:19:55,920 --> 01:20:00,640 Speaker 1: that's really beautifully articulated, and you know, just to just 1307 01:20:00,760 --> 01:20:06,599 Speaker 1: to oversimplify it, I think that any time you feel 1308 01:20:06,640 --> 01:20:11,160 Speaker 1: the pressure to feel a certain way, you know, where 1309 01:20:11,200 --> 01:20:15,439 Speaker 1: it's basically like this thing happens you you have a 1310 01:20:15,479 --> 01:20:19,040 Speaker 1: phenomenally successful television show where you have a baby, or 1311 01:20:19,439 --> 01:20:23,160 Speaker 1: you know, you win a race or you've won the lottery, 1312 01:20:23,200 --> 01:20:26,599 Speaker 1: that you're that you're like, I'm supposed to feel this way, 1313 01:20:26,680 --> 01:20:28,760 Speaker 1: you know, And if you don't feel the way that 1314 01:20:28,800 --> 01:20:32,360 Speaker 1: you're supposed to feel, then all the shame and guilt 1315 01:20:32,439 --> 01:20:35,280 Speaker 1: and confusion. What's wrong with me? Why am I not 1316 01:20:35,400 --> 01:20:38,720 Speaker 1: feeling this way? Like? But if you can, if you 1317 01:20:38,760 --> 01:20:42,479 Speaker 1: can use your position to expand the understanding of how 1318 01:20:42,520 --> 01:20:46,240 Speaker 1: you're supposed to feel, if young mothers start to understand 1319 01:20:46,360 --> 01:20:50,080 Speaker 1: that the way you're supposed to feel after having a 1320 01:20:50,120 --> 01:20:55,439 Speaker 1: baby is anxious and confused and sleepless, then you would, 1321 01:20:55,520 --> 01:20:58,120 Speaker 1: at the very least, you're taking the shame and the confusion, 1322 01:20:58,840 --> 01:21:01,400 Speaker 1: you know, off the table a bowl. You're not you're 1323 01:21:01,400 --> 01:21:04,439 Speaker 1: not going to prevent those feelings from happening, but they will, 1324 01:21:04,880 --> 01:21:08,760 Speaker 1: you know, they fall under the rubric of normalcy. And 1325 01:21:09,040 --> 01:21:13,840 Speaker 1: I think like, for me again, I can't relate to 1326 01:21:14,760 --> 01:21:19,639 Speaker 1: you know, post up postpartum feeling of of of having 1327 01:21:19,640 --> 01:21:24,360 Speaker 1: a baby, um. But but I can say that the 1328 01:21:24,360 --> 01:21:29,880 Speaker 1: worst part of it was this feeling of being abnormal 1329 01:21:30,000 --> 01:21:34,000 Speaker 1: and being what's wrong with me? That I'm surround everyone 1330 01:21:34,040 --> 01:21:36,679 Speaker 1: else is sending muffins, but I don't want to eat 1331 01:21:36,720 --> 01:21:39,680 Speaker 1: the muffins, you know. And when I would say to 1332 01:21:39,720 --> 01:21:43,880 Speaker 1: people I'm sad, they would look at me like I 1333 01:21:43,960 --> 01:21:48,960 Speaker 1: was a crazy person. Um, or they get mad, and 1334 01:21:49,000 --> 01:21:52,320 Speaker 1: so I stopped saying it, you know, Um of course 1335 01:21:52,360 --> 01:21:56,960 Speaker 1: I did, like uh, And then that just reinforces that 1336 01:21:57,080 --> 01:22:00,400 Speaker 1: shame or that something's wrong with me. Do you do 1337 01:22:00,479 --> 01:22:05,520 Speaker 1: you think that wanting to look at the inward experience 1338 01:22:07,200 --> 01:22:10,679 Speaker 1: is that part of maybe what leap frogged you after 1339 01:22:12,040 --> 01:22:15,599 Speaker 1: the whole incredible and you know, tumultuous and beautiful and 1340 01:22:15,840 --> 01:22:21,280 Speaker 1: brutal experience that that was making lost? Is that what 1341 01:22:21,400 --> 01:22:25,880 Speaker 1: drew to the leftovers? Because I'll never forget I God, 1342 01:22:25,920 --> 01:22:27,519 Speaker 1: I loved that book so much. I think I read 1343 01:22:27,520 --> 01:22:29,600 Speaker 1: it in a day and a half. Tom Prota is 1344 01:22:29,760 --> 01:22:34,040 Speaker 1: so brilliant. I think it is the most incredible exploration 1345 01:22:34,280 --> 01:22:39,400 Speaker 1: of just raw humanity. And I remember hearing it was 1346 01:22:39,640 --> 01:22:44,360 Speaker 1: being adapted, and I was just like juiced about it. 1347 01:22:44,840 --> 01:22:47,800 Speaker 1: And you know, I know so many people and you 1348 01:22:47,800 --> 01:22:49,280 Speaker 1: have it in your bio. You're like that shows not 1349 01:22:49,320 --> 01:22:51,880 Speaker 1: as depressing as everybody thinks it was. I couldn't get 1350 01:22:52,040 --> 01:22:54,360 Speaker 1: enough of it. I was like, I just I want 1351 01:22:54,360 --> 01:22:58,160 Speaker 1: to be in this world where people are just being 1352 01:22:58,320 --> 01:23:05,320 Speaker 1: so raw and honest. So what what made you dive 1353 01:23:05,400 --> 01:23:09,800 Speaker 1: into that? Again? It wasn't a choice, it was a compulsion. 1354 01:23:10,000 --> 01:23:14,360 Speaker 1: So I when Lost was over, I was like, I'm 1355 01:23:14,400 --> 01:23:18,000 Speaker 1: never doing a television show again. You know, I'll go 1356 01:23:18,040 --> 01:23:20,240 Speaker 1: and like work on some movies and stuff. But it's like, 1357 01:23:20,960 --> 01:23:23,800 Speaker 1: I think back to what we were talking about a 1358 01:23:23,800 --> 01:23:27,000 Speaker 1: little bit earlier. I was like, I can't chase that. 1359 01:23:27,600 --> 01:23:33,840 Speaker 1: I'll never do anything like this again, And so why 1360 01:23:33,920 --> 01:23:37,240 Speaker 1: blather was sort of my my default thinking. And then 1361 01:23:37,360 --> 01:23:39,640 Speaker 1: I read Tom's book, you know, and I had the 1362 01:23:39,680 --> 01:23:43,280 Speaker 1: same exact experience that you did, which was I was 1363 01:23:43,360 --> 01:23:45,799 Speaker 1: just floored by it. I mean it made me sob 1364 01:23:46,800 --> 01:23:50,759 Speaker 1: and like you know, I'm I'm not an easy cry 1365 01:23:50,920 --> 01:23:53,720 Speaker 1: despite the everything that we've been talking about, Like it's 1366 01:23:53,760 --> 01:23:57,400 Speaker 1: not something that happens in my daily existence, and I 1367 01:23:57,439 --> 01:24:00,720 Speaker 1: am I almost never sob you know, like that, you know, 1368 01:24:00,800 --> 01:24:04,040 Speaker 1: like the racked can't breathe. But there were like multiple 1369 01:24:04,080 --> 01:24:07,400 Speaker 1: times in reading this book that I was just like, Oh, 1370 01:24:07,800 --> 01:24:10,000 Speaker 1: I got to tap into this. This is you know, 1371 01:24:10,280 --> 01:24:12,120 Speaker 1: this is a this is a feeling that no one's 1372 01:24:12,160 --> 01:24:16,400 Speaker 1: talking about. And it also felt like I was moving 1373 01:24:16,439 --> 01:24:21,240 Speaker 1: through an experience of grief is the wrong word for it, 1374 01:24:21,280 --> 01:24:28,080 Speaker 1: but like separation from the aftermath of lost. Um, you know, 1375 01:24:28,200 --> 01:24:31,160 Speaker 1: the way that the ending of the show was processed 1376 01:24:31,840 --> 01:24:36,719 Speaker 1: m both by me and the people around me, and 1377 01:24:37,160 --> 01:24:39,760 Speaker 1: the two things were getting very confused, and I was 1378 01:24:39,800 --> 01:24:42,719 Speaker 1: on Twitter and spending way too much time on Twitter 1379 01:24:43,240 --> 01:24:48,040 Speaker 1: and UM and like all my armor was off when 1380 01:24:48,080 --> 01:24:50,280 Speaker 1: I read the Leftovers, and it just made me feel 1381 01:24:50,320 --> 01:24:54,360 Speaker 1: better because it was sort of like, oh, yeah, everybody 1382 01:24:54,360 --> 01:24:57,880 Speaker 1: feels like this, Like to our conversation, which is sort 1383 01:24:57,920 --> 01:25:02,120 Speaker 1: of like, what if the entire world like basically had 1384 01:25:02,160 --> 01:25:05,320 Speaker 1: the hammer drop on them. Two percent of the world's 1385 01:25:05,320 --> 01:25:08,760 Speaker 1: population disappears, There's no explanation, You're never going to get 1386 01:25:08,800 --> 01:25:12,439 Speaker 1: an explanation, and you now have to have to move 1387 01:25:12,520 --> 01:25:15,120 Speaker 1: on knowing that it could happen again at any moment. 1388 01:25:15,520 --> 01:25:18,160 Speaker 1: How could you ever connect, how could you ever connect 1389 01:25:18,200 --> 01:25:21,000 Speaker 1: with people? Knowing that they could be gone in an 1390 01:25:21,000 --> 01:25:25,200 Speaker 1: instant like that, but yet you do And I was like, yes, 1391 01:25:25,400 --> 01:25:29,120 Speaker 1: I'm doing this. And so it turned out that HBO 1392 01:25:29,120 --> 01:25:34,080 Speaker 1: had already optioned it and Parata was was he was 1393 01:25:34,320 --> 01:25:38,519 Speaker 1: meeting other writers showrunners to to do the gig. So 1394 01:25:38,640 --> 01:25:41,160 Speaker 1: I had to get my had to I had to 1395 01:25:41,160 --> 01:25:43,559 Speaker 1: get hired by him, which I loved being in that 1396 01:25:43,600 --> 01:25:47,120 Speaker 1: position because traditionally it was sort of like, damon, what 1397 01:25:47,120 --> 01:25:48,800 Speaker 1: do you want to do? What? You know? What, what's 1398 01:25:48,840 --> 01:25:50,800 Speaker 1: your next project going to be? Well, will do it? 1399 01:25:50,880 --> 01:25:52,559 Speaker 1: And so the idea of like being put in a 1400 01:25:52,600 --> 01:25:56,360 Speaker 1: position where I had to audition, um, you know, where 1401 01:25:56,360 --> 01:25:58,719 Speaker 1: I had to convince Tom that I understood his book, 1402 01:25:59,240 --> 01:26:04,520 Speaker 1: like what really good? And uh? And I said to him, 1403 01:26:04,560 --> 01:26:08,080 Speaker 1: you know, traditionally they want to just hunt on the author, 1404 01:26:08,280 --> 01:26:11,439 Speaker 1: you know, thank you for writing this amazing book. You're done, 1405 01:26:11,840 --> 01:26:13,400 Speaker 1: And I was like, you and I have to do 1406 01:26:13,479 --> 01:26:15,439 Speaker 1: this together. I know you've never been in a writer's 1407 01:26:15,479 --> 01:26:20,560 Speaker 1: room before, but it's you. It's your world. So I 1408 01:26:20,880 --> 01:26:26,439 Speaker 1: bring a certain level of experience, but but you, it'll 1409 01:26:26,439 --> 01:26:30,000 Speaker 1: only work if you're there. And so that was the 1410 01:26:30,040 --> 01:26:33,880 Speaker 1: beginning of you know, an incredible partnership, and then you 1411 01:26:33,920 --> 01:26:37,679 Speaker 1: know that partnership expanded to so many other incredible writers 1412 01:26:37,720 --> 01:26:41,360 Speaker 1: over those three seasons. Mimi Leader, whose name doesn't get 1413 01:26:41,400 --> 01:26:45,560 Speaker 1: mentioned nearly enough, she was really the other showrunner of 1414 01:26:46,080 --> 01:26:50,840 Speaker 1: UM of the Leftovers her first episode. She directed the 1415 01:26:50,880 --> 01:26:54,519 Speaker 1: fifth episode of the first season, and everybody, everybody on 1416 01:26:54,600 --> 01:27:00,200 Speaker 1: the crew was so overwhelmingly responsive to the leadership role 1417 01:27:00,240 --> 01:27:02,960 Speaker 1: that she took. We hired her as an ep immediately, 1418 01:27:03,800 --> 01:27:07,240 Speaker 1: UM because Leslie Lincoln Glodder, who had directed a couple 1419 01:27:07,280 --> 01:27:09,400 Speaker 1: of the other episodes, she had to go back to Homeland. 1420 01:27:09,439 --> 01:27:12,120 Speaker 1: And you know, we were we were we were rudder 1421 01:27:12,200 --> 01:27:16,839 Speaker 1: lists and motherless and and you know, I can't say 1422 01:27:17,000 --> 01:27:22,559 Speaker 1: enough about when an incredibly impactful creative influence maybe had 1423 01:27:22,600 --> 01:27:25,799 Speaker 1: on that show. UM, but everything just kind of started 1424 01:27:25,800 --> 01:27:28,840 Speaker 1: to click. We all understood because we had the book, 1425 01:27:29,040 --> 01:27:31,559 Speaker 1: you know, because we all had the same experience that 1426 01:27:31,640 --> 01:27:35,440 Speaker 1: you did. We unlike Lost, there was like a manual 1427 01:27:36,360 --> 01:27:40,960 Speaker 1: for like, you know, there was a text, a bible 1428 01:27:41,240 --> 01:27:46,479 Speaker 1: for us to follow. UM. So it was it was harder. 1429 01:27:47,360 --> 01:27:51,040 Speaker 1: It's never easy, but UM, it was harder in some ways. 1430 01:27:51,120 --> 01:27:54,360 Speaker 1: But like never in the way of like what are 1431 01:27:54,400 --> 01:27:59,240 Speaker 1: we chasing? We always knew what it was about, right, Well, 1432 01:27:59,280 --> 01:28:01,920 Speaker 1: what an incredible thing too, to always have a true 1433 01:28:01,960 --> 01:28:06,759 Speaker 1: north when endeavoring into a creative space like that. Also, 1434 01:28:06,920 --> 01:28:10,760 Speaker 1: just like pure fanboy moment. I'm such a huge fan 1435 01:28:10,840 --> 01:28:13,360 Speaker 1: of Mimi's so that's very cool to just hear about 1436 01:28:13,439 --> 01:28:17,800 Speaker 1: your experience. I'm like a little bit obsessed. Others, that's 1437 01:28:17,800 --> 01:28:21,120 Speaker 1: a that's a good obsession to have. M M. What 1438 01:28:21,160 --> 01:28:30,640 Speaker 1: do you think is so rewarding about adapting someone else's story? Um, 1439 01:28:30,680 --> 01:28:34,360 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know if it's rewarding, you know. 1440 01:28:34,520 --> 01:28:36,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I think I know what you mean by 1441 01:28:36,040 --> 01:28:38,800 Speaker 1: the word rewarding, but I think, like I would I 1442 01:28:38,800 --> 01:28:43,519 Speaker 1: would say satisfying, because I don't, you know, like I 1443 01:28:43,520 --> 01:28:51,040 Speaker 1: don't necessarily feel the satisfaction basically comes from again to 1444 01:28:51,080 --> 01:28:53,000 Speaker 1: circle back to some one of the things that we 1445 01:28:53,000 --> 01:28:57,640 Speaker 1: were talking about earlier, this remix idea, which is, you know, 1446 01:28:58,200 --> 01:29:04,720 Speaker 1: paradha is he My first exposure to The Leftovers was 1447 01:29:04,800 --> 01:29:08,799 Speaker 1: actually in the New York Times book review, a review 1448 01:29:08,880 --> 01:29:12,840 Speaker 1: of The Leftovers that was written by Stephen King, and 1449 01:29:13,000 --> 01:29:16,439 Speaker 1: in his review of The Leftovers, which he raved about 1450 01:29:16,880 --> 01:29:19,920 Speaker 1: he he said that it was the greatest episode of 1451 01:29:19,920 --> 01:29:24,760 Speaker 1: the Twilight Zone. That had never aired, and so as 1452 01:29:24,760 --> 01:29:28,320 Speaker 1: a huge Rod Serling fan and Twilight Zone. But Rod 1453 01:29:28,360 --> 01:29:33,880 Speaker 1: Sterling is a writer, creator, genius, and Stephen King genius 1454 01:29:34,040 --> 01:29:36,519 Speaker 1: and all of Parada's stuff prior to that, you know, 1455 01:29:36,720 --> 01:29:41,000 Speaker 1: from Election to Little Children, UM to The Absinence Teacher. 1456 01:29:41,920 --> 01:29:46,760 Speaker 1: It was like everything just kind of and so but 1457 01:29:46,800 --> 01:29:49,000 Speaker 1: there was a reason that Stephen King loved it, and 1458 01:29:49,040 --> 01:29:51,679 Speaker 1: it was the same reason that I love Stephen king books. 1459 01:29:52,000 --> 01:29:56,120 Speaker 1: And Tom Parata shouldn't be writing supernatural stories because he 1460 01:29:56,160 --> 01:29:59,040 Speaker 1: doesn't do that. He just moved out of his lane. 1461 01:29:59,400 --> 01:30:01,000 Speaker 1: And why does the feel like an episode of the 1462 01:30:01,040 --> 01:30:04,920 Speaker 1: twilight Zone? Because Twilight Zone was not just strange and scary, 1463 01:30:05,000 --> 01:30:09,400 Speaker 1: but it was. It was It was sociological and political 1464 01:30:09,439 --> 01:30:12,000 Speaker 1: metaphor for the times in which people were living. So 1465 01:30:12,600 --> 01:30:15,360 Speaker 1: the fears and anxieties that Rob certainly we're writing about. 1466 01:30:15,400 --> 01:30:18,559 Speaker 1: We're not about monsters and demons and aliens. It was 1467 01:30:18,600 --> 01:30:23,200 Speaker 1: about communism and the fear of the other and um 1468 01:30:23,240 --> 01:30:26,960 Speaker 1: and the you know, and and a closer analysis of 1469 01:30:27,000 --> 01:30:30,280 Speaker 1: what it meant to be American. UM. So all of 1470 01:30:30,320 --> 01:30:32,880 Speaker 1: those things kind of locked in. And this all connects 1471 01:30:32,920 --> 01:30:35,120 Speaker 1: back to your question, which is, why is it satisfying 1472 01:30:35,160 --> 01:30:38,559 Speaker 1: to adapt and and and the thing is like, why 1473 01:30:38,640 --> 01:30:41,480 Speaker 1: is it satisfying to adapt? Because if you're not adapting, 1474 01:30:41,520 --> 01:30:43,960 Speaker 1: then you're not evolving. And if you're not evolving, you're 1475 01:30:43,960 --> 01:30:48,320 Speaker 1: gonna get eaten by a faster animal. Um Uh. The 1476 01:30:48,360 --> 01:30:51,400 Speaker 1: reason that I want to adapt is because I'm paying 1477 01:30:51,479 --> 01:30:54,599 Speaker 1: back all of the things that inspired me. And so 1478 01:30:54,760 --> 01:30:58,960 Speaker 1: I'm openly acknowledging this was not my idea. I'm bringing new. 1479 01:30:59,080 --> 01:31:01,880 Speaker 1: I'm making something knew out of Tom's book The Leftovers, 1480 01:31:01,880 --> 01:31:04,600 Speaker 1: because there are things that he probably never would have 1481 01:31:04,600 --> 01:31:09,120 Speaker 1: thought to have done moving beyond the first season, but 1482 01:31:09,240 --> 01:31:13,320 Speaker 1: those things were all inspired by Tom. And and the 1483 01:31:13,400 --> 01:31:16,800 Speaker 1: things that inspired Tom were things that he saw in 1484 01:31:17,040 --> 01:31:20,200 Speaker 1: the Twilight Zone or or in a Stephen King book. 1485 01:31:20,680 --> 01:31:23,679 Speaker 1: And so we we all had these We're all cooking 1486 01:31:23,680 --> 01:31:28,280 Speaker 1: with the same ingredients. That's the satisfying part. Mm hmm. 1487 01:31:28,720 --> 01:31:33,320 Speaker 1: I love that. And isn't it interesting that the Twilight 1488 01:31:33,439 --> 01:31:37,200 Speaker 1: Zone and Stephen King came around? You know, you you 1489 01:31:37,280 --> 01:31:40,479 Speaker 1: got to remix those loves from your childhood, and then 1490 01:31:40,560 --> 01:31:43,360 Speaker 1: most recently you've gotten to do it again with Watchmen, 1491 01:31:43,760 --> 01:31:46,960 Speaker 1: Like all these things have have circled back for you 1492 01:31:47,000 --> 01:31:54,000 Speaker 1: in the coolest way. What what was that? Like? How 1493 01:31:54,320 --> 01:31:58,600 Speaker 1: how did the timing because obviously Watchman was always in 1494 01:31:58,600 --> 01:32:00,519 Speaker 1: your future in a way it was is in you 1495 01:32:00,840 --> 01:32:07,479 Speaker 1: from childhood. How how did it suddenly happen in your 1496 01:32:07,520 --> 01:32:11,160 Speaker 1: adult life as a as a creator. What's what's the 1497 01:32:11,200 --> 01:32:13,960 Speaker 1: process of that? I mean, we could have a whole 1498 01:32:14,000 --> 01:32:21,040 Speaker 1: separate conversation about about that, and I'll just you know, again, 1499 01:32:21,080 --> 01:32:26,000 Speaker 1: I'll overly simplify it by saying that over the over 1500 01:32:26,080 --> 01:32:30,479 Speaker 1: a five year period, Warner Brothers and HBO approached me, 1501 01:32:31,800 --> 01:32:36,080 Speaker 1: you know, two times to to do a television adaptation 1502 01:32:36,080 --> 01:32:38,880 Speaker 1: of Watchman, and I said no the first two times, 1503 01:32:38,880 --> 01:32:43,880 Speaker 1: and the third time they asked me um, I said yes. 1504 01:32:44,400 --> 01:32:47,479 Speaker 1: And and the difference between between the first two times 1505 01:32:47,479 --> 01:32:50,599 Speaker 1: and the third time was that I feel like, if 1506 01:32:50,600 --> 01:32:53,760 Speaker 1: I'm going to do anything, it comes back to this 1507 01:32:53,800 --> 01:32:55,920 Speaker 1: idea of it doesn't feel like a choice. It feels 1508 01:32:55,920 --> 01:32:58,640 Speaker 1: like a compulsion. Every time that I've been in my 1509 01:32:58,760 --> 01:33:02,080 Speaker 1: head and I've made a ad of decision, it doesn't 1510 01:33:02,120 --> 01:33:05,240 Speaker 1: work out particularly well. But when I feel compelled to 1511 01:33:05,280 --> 01:33:07,200 Speaker 1: do it, where it's like I have to do this 1512 01:33:07,360 --> 01:33:09,479 Speaker 1: even if I even if I don't want to, I 1513 01:33:09,560 --> 01:33:12,360 Speaker 1: have to, then it does work out. Well, because the 1514 01:33:12,400 --> 01:33:17,280 Speaker 1: compulsion is what what drives you through the hard parts. 1515 01:33:18,560 --> 01:33:23,439 Speaker 1: And so the third time they asked me, essentially I 1516 01:33:23,560 --> 01:33:25,559 Speaker 1: was I was in the midst of doing a very 1517 01:33:25,600 --> 01:33:29,200 Speaker 1: deep dive on the writing of Tanahasi Coates, and so 1518 01:33:29,720 --> 01:33:32,360 Speaker 1: it started with Between the World and Me, which is 1519 01:33:32,760 --> 01:33:35,120 Speaker 1: one of the most amazing pieces of writing that I've 1520 01:33:35,120 --> 01:33:38,800 Speaker 1: ever read. And I only read it. I only read 1521 01:33:38,840 --> 01:33:41,800 Speaker 1: it so that I could virtue signal because everybody was 1522 01:33:41,840 --> 01:33:44,320 Speaker 1: reading it, and I was like, I guess I'm supposed 1523 01:33:44,360 --> 01:33:46,800 Speaker 1: to read this book. But when I read it, I 1524 01:33:46,880 --> 01:33:50,280 Speaker 1: was just like it completely. I could feel like the 1525 01:33:50,400 --> 01:33:54,920 Speaker 1: world moving under my feet. I knew all that I 1526 01:33:55,040 --> 01:33:57,559 Speaker 1: knew all of the things that he was talking about, 1527 01:33:57,600 --> 01:34:01,840 Speaker 1: but I didn't know it and can never really experience 1528 01:34:01,920 --> 01:34:04,559 Speaker 1: it in the body that I'm that I'm in, but 1529 01:34:04,880 --> 01:34:07,519 Speaker 1: somehow like and so then I just was like, I 1530 01:34:07,560 --> 01:34:09,759 Speaker 1: have to read everything that this man has ever written, 1531 01:34:09,960 --> 01:34:13,559 Speaker 1: and was in the process of doing that, and then 1532 01:34:14,000 --> 01:34:17,320 Speaker 1: he wrote all these incredible essays for the Atlantic Um 1533 01:34:17,640 --> 01:34:20,960 Speaker 1: there there. They were subsequently compiled in this book called 1534 01:34:21,040 --> 01:34:23,599 Speaker 1: We Were Eight Years in Power Um and with all 1535 01:34:23,640 --> 01:34:26,360 Speaker 1: new introductions, but at the time I just went and 1536 01:34:26,360 --> 01:34:29,400 Speaker 1: found them online, and he wrote this piece called the 1537 01:34:29,400 --> 01:34:34,600 Speaker 1: Case for Reparations, which again totally there wasn't anything in 1538 01:34:34,640 --> 01:34:37,559 Speaker 1: it that I didn't know, but like now I knew, 1539 01:34:38,080 --> 01:34:42,240 Speaker 1: And once I knew, I was like I can't, like 1540 01:34:42,360 --> 01:34:44,120 Speaker 1: I can't move through the world the way that I 1541 01:34:44,160 --> 01:34:48,240 Speaker 1: was moving through a before it was like original sin 1542 01:34:49,240 --> 01:34:52,759 Speaker 1: and and I was like, I feel as a bleeding 1543 01:34:52,800 --> 01:34:57,639 Speaker 1: heart liberal this very corny entitled you know, um again 1544 01:34:57,800 --> 01:35:01,800 Speaker 1: over inflated ego sense of I need to get this 1545 01:35:01,920 --> 01:35:05,519 Speaker 1: out there into the world, like I need to increase 1546 01:35:05,800 --> 01:35:09,120 Speaker 1: how can I use my my power and my platform 1547 01:35:09,200 --> 01:35:13,799 Speaker 1: to broadcast everything that Tanassie Coads is writing about here? Um? 1548 01:35:14,479 --> 01:35:21,680 Speaker 1: And so I reached out to him through his agents 1549 01:35:21,720 --> 01:35:26,920 Speaker 1: like at first, and and then I wasn't hearing anything back. 1550 01:35:27,120 --> 01:35:30,679 Speaker 1: And then I heard him giving like a podcast interview 1551 01:35:30,760 --> 01:35:33,080 Speaker 1: where he was like, Yeah, all these white people in 1552 01:35:33,160 --> 01:35:36,880 Speaker 1: Hollywood are trying to like connect with me, I think 1553 01:35:36,880 --> 01:35:39,680 Speaker 1: because they want me to bless their projects. And I 1554 01:35:39,760 --> 01:35:43,200 Speaker 1: was like, oh, ship, he's right, that's what I'm doing. Um. 1555 01:35:43,320 --> 01:35:46,240 Speaker 1: And he's sort of like I'm paraphrasing, but he kind 1556 01:35:46,240 --> 01:35:48,000 Speaker 1: of threw down the gauntlet and said like, if you 1557 01:35:48,080 --> 01:35:50,800 Speaker 1: like my writing, if it's changed you in some way, 1558 01:35:50,880 --> 01:35:53,960 Speaker 1: like just like whatever you do next, you just incorporate 1559 01:35:54,000 --> 01:35:57,160 Speaker 1: some of those ideas. And in the process of the 1560 01:35:57,200 --> 01:36:01,040 Speaker 1: case for reparations, he talked in one paragraph about the 1561 01:36:01,040 --> 01:36:07,160 Speaker 1: Tulsa massacre of and Um and the carnage of black 1562 01:36:07,200 --> 01:36:10,400 Speaker 1: Wall Street in Greenwood. And so I did a lot 1563 01:36:10,439 --> 01:36:14,519 Speaker 1: of research, and I bought this book called The Burning, 1564 01:36:15,360 --> 01:36:17,880 Speaker 1: and I learned all about the Tulsa massacre. And I 1565 01:36:17,920 --> 01:36:21,759 Speaker 1: was astonished that this happened in the United States, that 1566 01:36:21,840 --> 01:36:27,320 Speaker 1: there was this enclave of African American exceptionalism and um 1567 01:36:27,479 --> 01:36:32,800 Speaker 1: and um and wealth in n in Oklahoma, and then 1568 01:36:32,960 --> 01:36:36,080 Speaker 1: within the space of twenty four hours, it was all decimated. 1569 01:36:36,560 --> 01:36:41,160 Speaker 1: And the and the real decimation, other than the loss 1570 01:36:41,200 --> 01:36:45,760 Speaker 1: of treasure and life and and wealth over generations, is 1571 01:36:45,760 --> 01:36:48,960 Speaker 1: that the real decimation was that it was a race 1572 01:36:49,080 --> 01:36:52,920 Speaker 1: from history. Nobody knows about it like um, certainly in 1573 01:36:52,960 --> 01:36:55,519 Speaker 1: my world. And I consider myself to be pretty well 1574 01:36:55,640 --> 01:37:00,519 Speaker 1: educated and interested in history, and particularly interested in you know, um, 1575 01:37:00,600 --> 01:37:03,000 Speaker 1: in the history of the United States and contemporary history. 1576 01:37:03,000 --> 01:37:05,040 Speaker 1: And how was it possible that I didn't know that 1577 01:37:05,120 --> 01:37:08,360 Speaker 1: this happened? And then and then they asked me the 1578 01:37:08,400 --> 01:37:11,160 Speaker 1: third time you know, do you want to do Watchman? 1579 01:37:11,720 --> 01:37:16,479 Speaker 1: And I was like, okay, uh, I'm going to somehow 1580 01:37:17,080 --> 01:37:21,560 Speaker 1: combine all of this. And because Watchman can hold this um, 1581 01:37:21,760 --> 01:37:25,200 Speaker 1: Watchman is this like is a way to get eyeballs 1582 01:37:25,240 --> 01:37:29,080 Speaker 1: on Tulsa without doing a documentary about Tulsa, which people 1583 01:37:29,080 --> 01:37:31,800 Speaker 1: would not watch because they don't want to They don't 1584 01:37:31,840 --> 01:37:34,040 Speaker 1: want to know. It's like they don't want to look 1585 01:37:34,080 --> 01:37:37,280 Speaker 1: at it. Like, so Watchman can be a delivery mechanism 1586 01:37:37,320 --> 01:37:41,360 Speaker 1: for this, even though it's fictional. You know, Watchman is fictional. 1587 01:37:41,439 --> 01:37:45,320 Speaker 1: Watchman is one of those rare comic book um properties 1588 01:37:45,840 --> 01:37:51,920 Speaker 1: that can actually do real United States history, and particularly 1589 01:37:52,920 --> 01:37:57,960 Speaker 1: when it's about power and authority and white supremacy and 1590 01:37:58,200 --> 01:38:01,920 Speaker 1: masking and the KKK, all of those ideas felt like 1591 01:38:01,960 --> 01:38:05,800 Speaker 1: they could really be held inside of of Watchman. And 1592 01:38:05,840 --> 01:38:08,320 Speaker 1: then it started to take on the energy that the 1593 01:38:08,320 --> 01:38:11,960 Speaker 1: original Watchman had in the in the mid eighties, which 1594 01:38:12,080 --> 01:38:18,840 Speaker 1: was it's it changed the way that people looked at superheroes. 1595 01:38:19,439 --> 01:38:21,519 Speaker 1: And I was like, you can't just do that again 1596 01:38:21,640 --> 01:38:27,320 Speaker 1: now in this was at the time because we already 1597 01:38:27,360 --> 01:38:33,000 Speaker 1: because Watchman already exists, so what and also we're living 1598 01:38:33,040 --> 01:38:36,599 Speaker 1: in a you know, superheroes are are all there are 1599 01:38:36,720 --> 01:38:41,080 Speaker 1: are such a big deal in our culture. Let me 1600 01:38:41,160 --> 01:38:43,720 Speaker 1: ask some questions about masks and who puts them on 1601 01:38:43,800 --> 01:38:46,840 Speaker 1: and why and and what are the psychological reasons for 1602 01:38:46,920 --> 01:38:49,280 Speaker 1: it that are in line with the same questions that 1603 01:38:49,360 --> 01:38:52,479 Speaker 1: the original Watchman was asking, but maybe feel a little 1604 01:38:52,479 --> 01:38:58,640 Speaker 1: more contemporary. Um that we have moved um uh thirty 1605 01:38:58,680 --> 01:39:02,960 Speaker 1: five years down the law line. Um and uh. And 1606 01:39:03,000 --> 01:39:05,719 Speaker 1: then we were kind of off to the races. So 1607 01:39:06,320 --> 01:39:09,160 Speaker 1: I'll tell you again. You know, I'm just telling you 1608 01:39:09,240 --> 01:39:14,519 Speaker 1: what the truth is. The compulsion to do it never 1609 01:39:14,600 --> 01:39:16,880 Speaker 1: went away. But while we were doing it, I was like, 1610 01:39:16,960 --> 01:39:20,679 Speaker 1: this is a huge mistake. This isn't working. It's a disaster. 1611 01:39:22,000 --> 01:39:23,760 Speaker 1: This is not my story to tell on me and 1612 01:39:23,840 --> 01:39:26,280 Speaker 1: over my head. And all of those things were true 1613 01:39:27,000 --> 01:39:30,280 Speaker 1: And the only thing, the only reason that it did 1614 01:39:30,320 --> 01:39:33,480 Speaker 1: work was the collaboration. I mean, I was surrounded by 1615 01:39:33,840 --> 01:39:38,240 Speaker 1: so many incredible storytellers, starting from the writer's room and 1616 01:39:38,280 --> 01:39:41,760 Speaker 1: then all through production. I can't say enough amazing things 1617 01:39:41,760 --> 01:39:45,080 Speaker 1: about the actors and um and how much a part 1618 01:39:45,120 --> 01:39:48,080 Speaker 1: of the process Regina was and who was a director 1619 01:39:48,080 --> 01:39:51,160 Speaker 1: and producer in her in her own right, but kept 1620 01:39:51,160 --> 01:39:55,640 Speaker 1: it so honest and so authentic, and you know, I 1621 01:39:57,400 --> 01:40:02,639 Speaker 1: the writer's room with it. With couple of exceptions were 1622 01:40:02,680 --> 01:40:04,840 Speaker 1: to two or three people that I worked with before. 1623 01:40:04,920 --> 01:40:09,120 Speaker 1: Everybody else was new and um, and more importantly, nobody 1624 01:40:09,160 --> 01:40:14,080 Speaker 1: looked like me, um and uh. And I was like, 1625 01:40:14,160 --> 01:40:15,760 Speaker 1: this is gonna be great because I'm gonna have this 1626 01:40:15,840 --> 01:40:19,400 Speaker 1: really inclusive writer's room with all these perspectives that are 1627 01:40:19,400 --> 01:40:22,559 Speaker 1: different than mine and I'm really gonna gonna listen and learn. 1628 01:40:23,200 --> 01:40:26,920 Speaker 1: And that was well intentioned, but within like four to 1629 01:40:27,000 --> 01:40:30,120 Speaker 1: eight hours when it actually started to happen, it was 1630 01:40:30,800 --> 01:40:34,960 Speaker 1: hard to relinquish my power, um, because I was sort 1631 01:40:35,000 --> 01:40:38,280 Speaker 1: of like, oh, oh, I want to give you power 1632 01:40:38,400 --> 01:40:40,479 Speaker 1: without giving up any of my own. And that's not 1633 01:40:40,520 --> 01:40:42,800 Speaker 1: the way that it works. It's a seesaw, you know, 1634 01:40:43,040 --> 01:40:46,000 Speaker 1: so as you make other people powerful, you're actually your 1635 01:40:46,080 --> 01:40:49,240 Speaker 1: seesaw is going down. That's what real equality is, right 1636 01:40:49,360 --> 01:40:52,080 Speaker 1: Like you want to be you know, you want to 1637 01:40:52,120 --> 01:40:56,240 Speaker 1: be balanced the loose. The seating of my power was 1638 01:40:56,280 --> 01:40:59,000 Speaker 1: not something that that went down easy. And I want 1639 01:40:59,000 --> 01:41:01,840 Speaker 1: to talk about that too, because when it starts to 1640 01:41:01,840 --> 01:41:04,200 Speaker 1: happen to you, you get scared and you get defensive 1641 01:41:04,280 --> 01:41:07,160 Speaker 1: and you and you start to kick and punch and 1642 01:41:07,320 --> 01:41:12,280 Speaker 1: scream and yell internally. But then once it's over and 1643 01:41:12,280 --> 01:41:16,560 Speaker 1: that's and the teeter totter is balanced, then truly incredible 1644 01:41:16,600 --> 01:41:20,240 Speaker 1: things start to happen. And that's the only reason that 1645 01:41:20,320 --> 01:41:23,759 Speaker 1: the show worked and I get to be here talking 1646 01:41:23,760 --> 01:41:25,879 Speaker 1: to you on a podcast right now. Is if Watchman 1647 01:41:26,080 --> 01:41:29,880 Speaker 1: was mine. But not only was it not mine because 1648 01:41:29,880 --> 01:41:32,960 Speaker 1: I adapted it from this masterpiece that was written by 1649 01:41:33,000 --> 01:41:36,280 Speaker 1: Alan and Dave in the mid eighties, but it's not 1650 01:41:36,360 --> 01:41:41,480 Speaker 1: mine because these these other writers and directors and actors 1651 01:41:41,560 --> 01:41:46,000 Speaker 1: and and um and costume designers and production designers and 1652 01:41:46,120 --> 01:41:49,920 Speaker 1: everybody who was on that show. Oh my god, was 1653 01:41:49,920 --> 01:41:53,519 Speaker 1: was so compelled. Um that when I watched it, it 1654 01:41:53,640 --> 01:41:55,840 Speaker 1: felt like I had nothing to do with it, and 1655 01:41:55,920 --> 01:41:59,479 Speaker 1: in all the best possible ways. So that's that was 1656 01:41:59,520 --> 01:42:01,639 Speaker 1: truly eightning in the bottle. And when it was over, 1657 01:42:01,720 --> 01:42:05,440 Speaker 1: I was like, I'm never doing that again. UM. But 1658 01:42:05,560 --> 01:42:08,439 Speaker 1: you know, I'm very, very very proud to have been 1659 01:42:08,600 --> 01:42:11,080 Speaker 1: a part of it. That just like that makes me 1660 01:42:11,160 --> 01:42:14,600 Speaker 1: feel very emotional and motivated and like I want to 1661 01:42:14,600 --> 01:42:18,559 Speaker 1: attack the day. So thank you for forget it, thank 1662 01:42:18,600 --> 01:42:21,000 Speaker 1: you for that vibe. I'm curious, can I ask you 1663 01:42:21,040 --> 01:42:24,679 Speaker 1: a technical question, because when I think about us talking 1664 01:42:24,680 --> 01:42:27,519 Speaker 1: about all of all of the sort of incredible like 1665 01:42:27,920 --> 01:42:32,080 Speaker 1: art and heart that goes into stories like this, I 1666 01:42:32,160 --> 01:42:36,000 Speaker 1: can't help but wonder about the change in the timeline. 1667 01:42:36,040 --> 01:42:39,559 Speaker 1: And we've talked about some of the technicalities, but aside 1668 01:42:39,600 --> 01:42:43,760 Speaker 1: from equipment and what not, changing and innovating, we've also 1669 01:42:44,160 --> 01:42:48,680 Speaker 1: come into this space now where with streaming and and 1670 01:42:48,760 --> 01:42:51,360 Speaker 1: all these other ways to watch shows, do you, as 1671 01:42:51,400 --> 01:42:55,519 Speaker 1: a writer, creator, producer, do you have to think about 1672 01:42:55,640 --> 01:42:59,200 Speaker 1: how to tailor the stories you tell to the new 1673 01:42:59,360 --> 01:43:03,040 Speaker 1: kind of binge model I'm gonna sit and watch six 1674 01:43:03,080 --> 01:43:08,120 Speaker 1: episodes or or or does that not invade your creative process? 1675 01:43:09,320 --> 01:43:13,320 Speaker 1: It's a good question, and the answer is yes and 1676 01:43:14,000 --> 01:43:17,800 Speaker 1: um and I do. I do think that, at least 1677 01:43:17,800 --> 01:43:22,240 Speaker 1: for me personally, I am now moving into a space 1678 01:43:22,560 --> 01:43:25,760 Speaker 1: both as a storyteller but also as a story consumer, 1679 01:43:26,479 --> 01:43:31,920 Speaker 1: of of not wanting to do like Saga's anymore. And 1680 01:43:31,960 --> 01:43:35,320 Speaker 1: by that I mean, if you tell me, if like 1681 01:43:35,360 --> 01:43:39,000 Speaker 1: Game of Thrones were to start now you know, and 1682 01:43:39,000 --> 01:43:41,760 Speaker 1: and the messaging that I was getting is that it's 1683 01:43:41,760 --> 01:43:45,200 Speaker 1: going to be seven or eight seasons of stories, um 1684 01:43:45,360 --> 01:43:49,759 Speaker 1: of episodes. I'd be like, no, no, I'm just not 1685 01:43:49,840 --> 01:43:53,800 Speaker 1: doing it because there's so many things on my list 1686 01:43:53,880 --> 01:43:56,559 Speaker 1: already that I that people are telling me that I 1687 01:43:56,600 --> 01:43:59,719 Speaker 1: have to see that are amazing, not to mention things 1688 01:43:59,720 --> 01:44:02,559 Speaker 1: that I love that I want to revisit, like the 1689 01:44:02,640 --> 01:44:06,320 Speaker 1: idea of like watching Parks and Wreck again or like 1690 01:44:06,840 --> 01:44:11,000 Speaker 1: and and so I'm just basically like no, uh. And 1691 01:44:11,040 --> 01:44:15,080 Speaker 1: I find that I'm not the only one. I think 1692 01:44:15,120 --> 01:44:19,400 Speaker 1: that the the idea of the limited series of basically saying, 1693 01:44:20,479 --> 01:44:23,400 Speaker 1: can we just do this all in ten episodes? Can 1694 01:44:23,439 --> 01:44:25,680 Speaker 1: we tell the whole story in ten episodes versus over 1695 01:44:25,720 --> 01:44:28,360 Speaker 1: the course of five years? We should all be we 1696 01:44:28,400 --> 01:44:32,880 Speaker 1: should all be asking ourselves that question now, like, um, 1697 01:44:32,960 --> 01:44:35,320 Speaker 1: just because you can stretch it out doesn't mean that 1698 01:44:35,400 --> 01:44:39,560 Speaker 1: you should. And it's not that our attention span is shortening. 1699 01:44:39,640 --> 01:44:43,000 Speaker 1: It's that our time is becoming more valuable in terms 1700 01:44:43,080 --> 01:44:45,639 Speaker 1: of the way that we consume this stuff. And so 1701 01:44:46,360 --> 01:44:50,599 Speaker 1: for me, it's it's basically like one and done for 1702 01:44:50,640 --> 01:44:55,480 Speaker 1: the rest of my television career. Um. And more importantly, 1703 01:44:55,640 --> 01:44:58,000 Speaker 1: there's stuff that I'm committed to already, you know that's 1704 01:44:58,040 --> 01:45:01,639 Speaker 1: grandfathered in, like Stranger Things or or better call Saul, 1705 01:45:02,080 --> 01:45:04,360 Speaker 1: where I'm like, oh yeah, I'm I'm in. I'll watch 1706 01:45:04,400 --> 01:45:09,160 Speaker 1: these things to the end. But like, let's be honest, 1707 01:45:10,640 --> 01:45:13,600 Speaker 1: don't take Bob oden Kirk for six years. You're just 1708 01:45:13,680 --> 01:45:18,080 Speaker 1: being greedy. Like I would rather watch him do like 1709 01:45:18,200 --> 01:45:21,639 Speaker 1: five different things than just play Saul Goodman for five 1710 01:45:21,800 --> 01:45:23,880 Speaker 1: six years. And I know that he gets to do 1711 01:45:23,960 --> 01:45:29,080 Speaker 1: other things in his hiatus, but like it's like, let's 1712 01:45:29,120 --> 01:45:34,640 Speaker 1: some let's let's have simpler, more elegant meals and eliminate 1713 01:45:34,680 --> 01:45:40,000 Speaker 1: the buffet. Is my is my thinking right now? And uh, 1714 01:45:40,040 --> 01:45:42,839 Speaker 1: that isn't again to say that the shows of the past, 1715 01:45:43,280 --> 01:45:45,840 Speaker 1: you know, I'm that that that that that's great that 1716 01:45:45,880 --> 01:45:48,880 Speaker 1: there's seven, eight, nine seasons of them. They're all there 1717 01:45:48,960 --> 01:45:51,960 Speaker 1: for our binging. But in terms of what we're making now, 1718 01:45:52,960 --> 01:45:55,840 Speaker 1: I can't really think of any reason to make make 1719 01:45:55,920 --> 01:46:01,880 Speaker 1: up a five season show anymore. I think it's arrogant. Wow, 1720 01:46:01,920 --> 01:46:07,280 Speaker 1: that's so interesting, Okay, Yeah, I mean there's been some 1721 01:46:07,360 --> 01:46:11,599 Speaker 1: incredible limiteds that I've watched recently and just loved so much. 1722 01:46:11,640 --> 01:46:14,519 Speaker 1: And and it's tricky because part of me is a 1723 01:46:14,600 --> 01:46:19,920 Speaker 1: viewer once more, and part of me as a person 1724 01:46:19,920 --> 01:46:22,559 Speaker 1: who's so passionate about story loves when they quit while 1725 01:46:22,560 --> 01:46:27,840 Speaker 1: they're ahead. Well, if you if you acknowledge that just 1726 01:46:28,200 --> 01:46:30,880 Speaker 1: enough is a thing that's achievable, which I don't think 1727 01:46:31,000 --> 01:46:33,479 Speaker 1: is true. Right, the porridge is either too hot or 1728 01:46:33,520 --> 01:46:37,320 Speaker 1: it's too cold. You never you never land on just right. 1729 01:46:37,400 --> 01:46:40,960 Speaker 1: You're just moving through it. Like it's much better to 1730 01:46:41,040 --> 01:46:44,400 Speaker 1: be on. I want more of that than it is, 1731 01:46:45,080 --> 01:46:51,240 Speaker 1: like um overstuffed, Like you just don't. You can't quit 1732 01:46:51,280 --> 01:46:53,519 Speaker 1: while you're ahead because you don't know when you're going 1733 01:46:53,560 --> 01:47:00,400 Speaker 1: to be behind. Yeah, I don't even know what that means. 1734 01:47:00,439 --> 01:47:04,080 Speaker 1: It sounded profound, but but it's also it sounded phenomenal. 1735 01:47:04,120 --> 01:47:06,640 Speaker 1: I'm like, that's good. That's like that. This is one 1736 01:47:06,680 --> 01:47:08,680 Speaker 1: of those moments where if it was Oprah interviewing you 1737 01:47:08,720 --> 01:47:10,920 Speaker 1: and not me, she'd be like, tweet it. Yeah, I'm 1738 01:47:10,920 --> 01:47:13,080 Speaker 1: going to go look outside the window. That's what they 1739 01:47:13,080 --> 01:47:16,360 Speaker 1: always do on Oprah. They look contemp they look contemplatively 1740 01:47:16,439 --> 01:47:21,080 Speaker 1: out windows. I love it. So you're you're keeping yourself 1741 01:47:21,120 --> 01:47:24,080 Speaker 1: busy during this quarantine with a very cool project that 1742 01:47:24,200 --> 01:47:26,519 Speaker 1: I would love for the listeners to know about. Obviously, 1743 01:47:26,600 --> 01:47:28,160 Speaker 1: now they have a list of things to watch and 1744 01:47:28,200 --> 01:47:31,120 Speaker 1: binge if they for some reason have been living under 1745 01:47:31,160 --> 01:47:33,200 Speaker 1: a rock and are behind on some of your work. 1746 01:47:33,800 --> 01:47:39,519 Speaker 1: But talk to us about something something something murder. Um. 1747 01:47:39,720 --> 01:47:45,080 Speaker 1: I've never written prose before, um, like a short story 1748 01:47:45,160 --> 01:47:48,480 Speaker 1: or any any a short story or even anything approaching 1749 01:47:48,720 --> 01:47:51,639 Speaker 1: you know what novel writing is. Um. There are very 1750 01:47:51,640 --> 01:47:54,360 Speaker 1: good reasons that I've never done it. Uh. The first 1751 01:47:54,439 --> 01:47:57,519 Speaker 1: and foremost the one that I mentioned to you earlier, 1752 01:47:57,560 --> 01:48:00,400 Speaker 1: which is I like to collaborate with other people, and 1753 01:48:01,040 --> 01:48:05,000 Speaker 1: the idea of writing prose is very singular. You just 1754 01:48:05,080 --> 01:48:07,000 Speaker 1: like you have to come up with an idea and 1755 01:48:07,000 --> 01:48:10,600 Speaker 1: then it then it pops out of your fingers and 1756 01:48:10,600 --> 01:48:12,040 Speaker 1: and you don't really get to bounce it off of 1757 01:48:12,080 --> 01:48:18,280 Speaker 1: anybody else. It just exists. And so um. Once it 1758 01:48:18,320 --> 01:48:21,360 Speaker 1: became very clear that we were going to be in 1759 01:48:21,400 --> 01:48:24,240 Speaker 1: our houses for a while, I felt like I needed 1760 01:48:24,360 --> 01:48:30,719 Speaker 1: to have some structure um to my days that involved writing. 1761 01:48:31,200 --> 01:48:32,800 Speaker 1: And the only thing that we compel me to do 1762 01:48:32,840 --> 01:48:38,360 Speaker 1: that would be some kind of serialized story. But it 1763 01:48:38,439 --> 01:48:40,400 Speaker 1: was just going to come out one chapter at a time. 1764 01:48:41,200 --> 01:48:45,599 Speaker 1: At first, I wrote every day, then every other day. 1765 01:48:45,720 --> 01:48:50,639 Speaker 1: Now it's every three days, um, and or every four days. 1766 01:48:50,720 --> 01:48:53,920 Speaker 1: It's become more sporadic because it's getting harder and harder, 1767 01:48:54,520 --> 01:48:56,519 Speaker 1: UM and feeling more and more like a job and 1768 01:48:56,600 --> 01:49:01,320 Speaker 1: less like a diversion. Because it's a it's a story, 1769 01:49:01,479 --> 01:49:04,519 Speaker 1: you know, it's gotta you, gotta you, gotta figure out 1770 01:49:04,560 --> 01:49:07,880 Speaker 1: how it's going to move. But um, but I'm also 1771 01:49:08,000 --> 01:49:11,640 Speaker 1: using it to talk about some of the experiences that 1772 01:49:11,680 --> 01:49:16,599 Speaker 1: we're all having collectively, and hopefully it's a little snarky 1773 01:49:16,640 --> 01:49:20,679 Speaker 1: and fun. And it involves time travel, and the basic 1774 01:49:20,720 --> 01:49:24,400 Speaker 1: premise of the of the story is as someone again 1775 01:49:24,479 --> 01:49:30,599 Speaker 1: who's a self professed UM bleeding heart liberal and massive 1776 01:49:30,640 --> 01:49:34,880 Speaker 1: progressive and Hillary Clinton supporter. One of the things that 1777 01:49:34,960 --> 01:49:38,799 Speaker 1: a lot of my peers started saying as the um 1778 01:49:38,840 --> 01:49:41,720 Speaker 1: as the pandemic began was, oh, my god, I I 1779 01:49:41,760 --> 01:49:46,360 Speaker 1: wish that Hillary Clinton was president right now. And I say, well, 1780 01:49:46,360 --> 01:49:49,519 Speaker 1: of course I do too, But I'm not so sure 1781 01:49:50,240 --> 01:49:53,040 Speaker 1: that she wouldn't be having problems of her own. They 1782 01:49:53,040 --> 01:49:58,040 Speaker 1: would just be entirely different problems. Um and uh. And 1783 01:49:58,120 --> 01:50:02,400 Speaker 1: so this this story is about at UM. It's about 1784 01:50:02,760 --> 01:50:06,800 Speaker 1: um uh, a mom who is a particle physicist, who 1785 01:50:06,960 --> 01:50:10,200 Speaker 1: is who traveled back in time to make Hillary Clinton 1786 01:50:10,240 --> 01:50:14,679 Speaker 1: the president United States, and her twelve year old son, Uh. 1787 01:50:14,720 --> 01:50:17,120 Speaker 1: Maybe he's ten I can't remember. I think he's ten 1788 01:50:17,240 --> 01:50:22,280 Speaker 1: or eleven, maybe twelve, who also travels back back in time. 1789 01:50:22,320 --> 01:50:26,360 Speaker 1: He steals her technology because he the only world that 1790 01:50:26,400 --> 01:50:28,439 Speaker 1: he ever knows is one where Hillary Clinton was the 1791 01:50:28,479 --> 01:50:33,120 Speaker 1: president United States, and because because people are refusing to 1792 01:50:33,200 --> 01:50:35,960 Speaker 1: listen to her and shelter in place in that reality, 1793 01:50:36,200 --> 01:50:39,519 Speaker 1: she has turned off the Internet and taking and taking 1794 01:50:39,520 --> 01:50:42,599 Speaker 1: people's screen time away. And so this eleven year old 1795 01:50:42,720 --> 01:50:45,960 Speaker 1: has now stolen his mother's technology and he has traveled 1796 01:50:45,960 --> 01:50:48,120 Speaker 1: back in time to make Donald Trump the President United 1797 01:50:48,160 --> 01:50:52,880 Speaker 1: States without realizing that that's the reality that she was. 1798 01:50:53,120 --> 01:50:57,120 Speaker 1: So they keep rewriting each other, mother and son, and 1799 01:50:57,439 --> 01:51:00,280 Speaker 1: they're kind of caught in this loop. And there's doc 1800 01:51:00,800 --> 01:51:03,479 Speaker 1: as are we all. That's the basic that's the basic 1801 01:51:03,520 --> 01:51:06,920 Speaker 1: gist of the story. Again, I offer the caveat I 1802 01:51:06,920 --> 01:51:10,400 Speaker 1: am not I am a I am a professional television writer, 1803 01:51:11,040 --> 01:51:14,479 Speaker 1: a screenwriter, but I do not write pros. And so 1804 01:51:14,600 --> 01:51:19,439 Speaker 1: the idea of getting in over my head and trying 1805 01:51:19,479 --> 01:51:21,760 Speaker 1: to do something that I'm not particularly good at has 1806 01:51:21,960 --> 01:51:24,960 Speaker 1: has been quite a learning experience, and I apologize in 1807 01:51:25,000 --> 01:51:27,080 Speaker 1: advance for the result. The good news is it's not 1808 01:51:27,200 --> 01:51:31,000 Speaker 1: right if you only get three or four pages a day, 1809 01:51:31,080 --> 01:51:37,160 Speaker 1: So it's not that it's not that massive of an investment. Great, well, 1810 01:51:37,160 --> 01:51:39,160 Speaker 1: it feels like a perfect time for me to ask 1811 01:51:39,200 --> 01:51:43,320 Speaker 1: you my favorite question, UM, as we talked about earlier. 1812 01:51:43,360 --> 01:51:45,960 Speaker 1: You know, the podcast is called work in Progress, and 1813 01:51:46,000 --> 01:51:50,880 Speaker 1: so thinking about all this stuff we've been talking about, 1814 01:51:51,680 --> 01:51:54,439 Speaker 1: what comes to mind when you hear that phrase? What, 1815 01:51:54,720 --> 01:51:58,160 Speaker 1: whether it's personal or professional, or really in any arena 1816 01:51:58,200 --> 01:52:00,160 Speaker 1: in your life, feels like a work in progres us 1817 01:52:00,240 --> 01:52:05,760 Speaker 1: to you, UM, I think it's. It all sort of 1818 01:52:05,800 --> 01:52:12,400 Speaker 1: boils down to I'm interested in what I'm interested in, UM, 1819 01:52:12,720 --> 01:52:19,640 Speaker 1: and that's never going to change. It's my it's my taste. UM. 1820 01:52:19,680 --> 01:52:24,280 Speaker 1: Like I can't suddenly like as much as I want 1821 01:52:24,280 --> 01:52:27,200 Speaker 1: to get into I've always been like I wish I 1822 01:52:27,280 --> 01:52:30,800 Speaker 1: knew more about World War two, you know, like it 1823 01:52:30,880 --> 01:52:33,200 Speaker 1: just seems like such a but I'm just not interested 1824 01:52:33,240 --> 01:52:35,840 Speaker 1: in it. Like every time I try to read a 1825 01:52:35,880 --> 01:52:38,080 Speaker 1: book about it or watch a documentary about it, I'm 1826 01:52:38,120 --> 01:52:41,599 Speaker 1: just kind of like, yeah, you know, I'm not bored, 1827 01:52:41,600 --> 01:52:44,240 Speaker 1: but it's like it's it's not my thing. And so 1828 01:52:44,400 --> 01:52:50,320 Speaker 1: the Work in Progress is beginning to really catalog and 1829 01:52:50,479 --> 01:52:55,519 Speaker 1: understand the things that I'm interested in because I think 1830 01:52:56,360 --> 01:52:59,080 Speaker 1: that range is probably a lot more broader than I 1831 01:52:59,120 --> 01:53:01,840 Speaker 1: thought it was. And so again, if you go back 1832 01:53:01,840 --> 01:53:08,840 Speaker 1: to um UH the Genesis of Watchman, and the only 1833 01:53:08,840 --> 01:53:10,719 Speaker 1: reason that I did it was because of what Tana 1834 01:53:10,760 --> 01:53:14,679 Speaker 1: Hassi Coates wrote. If you asked me, am I interested 1835 01:53:14,880 --> 01:53:16,960 Speaker 1: in the kind of things that top Tana Hausi Coats 1836 01:53:16,960 --> 01:53:19,400 Speaker 1: is writing about, I'd say, like, I care about those things, 1837 01:53:19,439 --> 01:53:23,320 Speaker 1: but that's not my thing, you know, that's not my lane. 1838 01:53:23,880 --> 01:53:27,160 Speaker 1: And then lo and behold it was. And so doing 1839 01:53:27,200 --> 01:53:31,639 Speaker 1: a little bit the work in progresses UM is let's 1840 01:53:31,640 --> 01:53:34,479 Speaker 1: go back and like reverse engineer, let's take apart the 1841 01:53:34,520 --> 01:53:37,000 Speaker 1: components of some of these things that I thought I 1842 01:53:37,040 --> 01:53:40,639 Speaker 1: was interested in and understand what I'm really interested in, 1843 01:53:40,800 --> 01:53:45,200 Speaker 1: because that might open up the doors for some new possibilities. 1844 01:53:45,560 --> 01:53:48,040 Speaker 1: Because the last thing that I want to do is 1845 01:53:48,080 --> 01:53:55,360 Speaker 1: another television show about UM about whether or not God exists, 1846 01:53:55,640 --> 01:53:59,480 Speaker 1: or solving the great mysteries of the afterlife, or exploring 1847 01:53:59,520 --> 01:54:05,280 Speaker 1: the thematic between um uh free will and and um 1848 01:54:05,320 --> 01:54:10,280 Speaker 1: intelligent design. That's sort of populated, you know, lost in 1849 01:54:10,320 --> 01:54:13,120 Speaker 1: the leftovers to an extreme degree. But those things I 1850 01:54:13,520 --> 01:54:16,120 Speaker 1: still think about all the time, So they're gonna They're 1851 01:54:16,120 --> 01:54:18,960 Speaker 1: gonna work their way into whatever I'm doing. But if 1852 01:54:18,960 --> 01:54:25,439 Speaker 1: I can combine those flavors with some some other new stuff, um, 1853 01:54:25,479 --> 01:54:28,920 Speaker 1: that's the work in progress. Like I have to I 1854 01:54:29,240 --> 01:54:31,640 Speaker 1: feel like I know what I the food that I like, 1855 01:54:31,800 --> 01:54:36,000 Speaker 1: but I have to keep trying new food. Um uh. 1856 01:54:36,040 --> 01:54:38,440 Speaker 1: And that can be scary, can give you a stomach 1857 01:54:38,440 --> 01:54:43,520 Speaker 1: ache or an allergic reaction if you're not careful. Yeah, 1858 01:54:43,560 --> 01:54:48,280 Speaker 1: but to your point, we've got to try. You've got 1859 01:54:48,280 --> 01:54:54,600 Speaker 1: to keep evolving. Yeah, you gotta because otherwise what are 1860 01:54:54,600 --> 01:54:58,120 Speaker 1: we doing. Yeah. But at the same time, like you 1861 01:54:58,160 --> 01:55:00,560 Speaker 1: were talking about nostalgia earlier, it's sort of like, you know, 1862 01:55:00,640 --> 01:55:04,880 Speaker 1: the Rolling Stones, you know, played um for the Stay 1863 01:55:04,920 --> 01:55:08,040 Speaker 1: at Home benefit the other night, and and I was like, 1864 01:55:08,360 --> 01:55:10,120 Speaker 1: they played you Can't Always Get What you Want, which 1865 01:55:10,160 --> 01:55:13,440 Speaker 1: is a song that they wrote four decades ago. And 1866 01:55:14,760 --> 01:55:18,200 Speaker 1: I'm down for that. You know, I don't want to 1867 01:55:18,200 --> 01:55:22,120 Speaker 1: hear it Rolling Stones playing stuff a lot of steel wheels. Um, 1868 01:55:22,160 --> 01:55:24,800 Speaker 1: you know, it's a it's a good album. But like 1869 01:55:25,400 --> 01:55:28,440 Speaker 1: you know, and so I think that this idea of 1870 01:55:30,080 --> 01:55:32,160 Speaker 1: it's okay to celebrate what you're good at and to 1871 01:55:32,280 --> 01:55:35,040 Speaker 1: continue to to do it. That's what people want to 1872 01:55:35,040 --> 01:55:37,520 Speaker 1: hear but I but I do think you you do 1873 01:55:37,640 --> 01:55:41,960 Speaker 1: have to also also be a bit more experimental. And 1874 01:55:42,000 --> 01:55:46,400 Speaker 1: that's that's scary because sometimes it's gonna not work. Um, 1875 01:55:47,280 --> 01:55:51,160 Speaker 1: but you gotta, you know, you gotta do it anyway. Well, 1876 01:55:52,200 --> 01:55:56,880 Speaker 1: I'm I'm fired up. Thank you do it go light 1877 01:55:57,000 --> 01:56:03,880 Speaker 1: some things same about it, my pleasure. This show is 1878 01:56:03,920 --> 01:56:08,080 Speaker 1: executive produced by Me, Sophia Bush, and sim Sarna. Our 1879 01:56:08,080 --> 01:56:12,600 Speaker 1: supervising producer is Alison Bresnick. Our associate producer is Kate Linley. 1880 01:56:13,280 --> 01:56:16,440 Speaker 1: Our editor is Josh Wendish, and our music was written 1881 01:56:16,440 --> 01:56:19,680 Speaker 1: by Jack Garrett and produced by Mark Foster. This show 1882 01:56:19,720 --> 01:56:28,440 Speaker 1: is brought to you by Brilliant Anatomy