1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is the production of I Heart Radio. I 2 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: cared about the way you get your teeth when you 3 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: beat me for not being perfect. I cared about girls 4 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:16,800 Speaker 1: at school seeing my welts. I cared about you days 5 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:19,240 Speaker 1: and often hours before you beat me. You touched me 6 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:21,960 Speaker 1: so gently. You told me you loved me. You called 7 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 1: me your best friend. You forgave me for losing the 8 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: Kinnis to the house. You codd the ashy cracks in 9 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: my face with vasiline slick palms. You use your w 10 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 1: thumbs wet with saliva to clean and sleep out of 11 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: my eyes. You made me feel like the most beautiful 12 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:42,520 Speaker 1: black boy in the history of Mississippi until you didn't. 13 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,880 Speaker 1: That's Kisa Layman reading a passage from his masterful memoir Heavy, 14 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: a memoir that has been receiving just about every accolade 15 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: a book can get. I sat down with Kis on 16 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: a chilly summer morning in the mountains at the Aspen 17 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: Ideas for staff. I'm Danny Shapiro, and this is family Secrets. 18 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:16,959 Speaker 1: The secrets that are kept from us, the secrets we 19 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:20,479 Speaker 1: keep from others, and the secrets we keep from ourselves. 20 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: Tell me about the landscape of your childhood. Whoa you 21 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 1: start big huh? The landscape of my childhood. So that's 22 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,400 Speaker 1: a great question. You know, my my parents were nineteen 23 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: and twenty when I was born on the campus of 24 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 1: Jackson State University. My mom claims the first time she 25 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 1: had sexually got pregnant. My father claims the first time 26 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: he had sex, they got pregnant, and then they went 27 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: on to go to grad school University Wisconsin. When when 28 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: they went there, I was there for a little bit 29 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: and I want to stay with my grandmother and that 30 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 1: rule black town majority black town called far Ast, Mississippi. 31 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: And then when my mother and my parents my father 32 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: got separated, my mother moved to Jackson, and then I 33 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: came up from Forest, Mississippi to stay with her in 34 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: Jackson around eighties, so like six or seven. Um, So, 35 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 1: like my early early childhood was like partially in Jackson, 36 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: a little Tason, Wisconsin. And most of my memories of 37 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: my childhood are in Farest, Mississippi, partially because of my grandmother. Mean, 38 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 1: the landscape was kind of cool, but my grandmother was 39 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 1: just you know, complicated. She was just really good at loving, 40 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: really good at record being, really good at keeping secrets. Um. 41 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: So for me, she is my She is the landscape 42 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 1: of my childhood. And then when when my mom came 43 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: and got me, moved to Jackson, Um, you know, she 44 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 1: was very young single, so you know, I watched her 45 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: the young black woman in Mississippi go through with a 46 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:49,359 Speaker 1: lot of young black single women in Mississippi go through, 47 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: lots of heartbreak, lots of economic procarity. We moved around 48 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: a lot. The only thing that was actually solid was 49 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:02,799 Speaker 1: just her pushing book and writing on me and disciplined 50 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: me if I didn't do with the books and writing 51 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 1: what she wanted to. So my landscape is like it's 52 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: filled with Grandma is ms, is filled with my mom 53 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: pushing education. I don't really have many memories of my 54 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: father being there. I know he was there, you know. No. 55 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: One memory I do have is that he froze a 56 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: snowball when we lived in Wisconsin for a little while 57 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:22,239 Speaker 1: and he broke it back out in the summer. We 58 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: had a snowball fight. That's the only member I had 59 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:26,399 Speaker 1: with my father before I was eight. But he was there. 60 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 1: I just don't remember him unless pictures trigger some memory. 61 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: But I don't know if that's make believer actual. And 62 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: then the rest of my sort of childhood is just 63 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 1: living with Mama, just trying to watch her go from 64 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: like really a girl to a young woman to a 65 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: to a woman, and watch her teach while I was 66 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 1: just trying to do it. Most kids are trying to do, 67 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: you know, figure out life, deal with puberty, figure out 68 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: my feelings from my mother. We were so tight. I 69 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: was a big boy. People always thought that was my sister. 70 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: Man would always come up to me and asked me 71 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: for my sister's numbers. I would get upset up about that, 72 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: but yeah, we were very close. Variants. We slept in 73 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: the same bed for a long time, do you know 74 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 1: what I'm saying? And I think that sort of heightened 75 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: a lot of the things that came post essays. Mother 76 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: is an academic, a college professor. She's consumed with elevating 77 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:23,160 Speaker 1: Kisa and protecting him. She insists that he speaks proper English, 78 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: the King's English, because that's how educated people, white people speak. 79 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: She's not just Kissa's mom, she's his teacher. She gives 80 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:36,359 Speaker 1: him assignments to write papers, for instance, one about the 81 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 1: politicians Benjamin Franklin Wade and Thaddeus Stevens, and another to 82 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: read the first chapter of William Faulkner's Absalom Absalom and 83 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 1: then imitate Faulkner's style, and Kisa knows he'd better complete 84 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 1: those assignments in a timely manner or else that's just 85 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: gonna have to laugh and always have to laugh before 86 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: I talk about that, right, Like, it's not even it's 87 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 1: just it's just bodily. You know. When I was really 88 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: young and she gave me lots of assignments. If I 89 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:09,919 Speaker 1: got them wrong, she sit down with me and we 90 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: would revive we get it right. Um. But when when 91 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: when she moved back to Jackson for a few years 92 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:17,919 Speaker 1: and I met a man that she would fall in 93 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:21,279 Speaker 1: love with, who's a really powerful man in my city. Uh, 94 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: the or else is became a lot more physical and 95 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: a lot more emotionally abrasive. I think sometimes it made 96 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: this distinction between physical abuse and emotional abuse, but I don't. 97 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: I've got lots of whims in my life, and they 98 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 1: were all emotional in addition to being physical. And when 99 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:40,239 Speaker 1: people have emotionally abused me, or if I've been emotionally 100 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 1: abusive to people have seen the physical manifestations of it. 101 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: So I'm saying, yeah, there's a lot of physical abuses, 102 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 1: emotional abuse, and some of it had to do was 103 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:51,359 Speaker 1: because she was afraid that if I didn't master she 104 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 1: called the King's English, the white people, white police, white teachers, 105 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 1: what whatever, would go harder on me. That was definitely 106 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: something she believed. She got that from her grandma. And 107 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:01,479 Speaker 1: then it was just a lot of like, my life 108 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: isn't fucking shambles, Like this dude is terrorizing me. I 109 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: cannot effectively terrorize him. I go home to this big 110 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:10,600 Speaker 1: black boy who was my son, who I love more 111 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 1: than by in the world. He's kind of hard head. 112 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: He's not doing what I wanted to do. And you know, 113 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: I don't want to mythologize. The beatings are whippings. I 114 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 1: don't have children. Part of the reason I don't have 115 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 1: children because I'm afraid. I don't want to punish my children. 116 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,119 Speaker 1: Never ever, ever would put my hands on my kids. 117 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:27,720 Speaker 1: But I just noticed a lot of different ways to 118 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 1: use people other than that, and so my mother she 119 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 1: just started to, like, you know, beat me a lot 120 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: um for things that she said I was doing wrong. 121 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:38,840 Speaker 1: But also when she and her partner got into it, 122 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 1: I just knew I was gonna get it, you know. 123 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:43,479 Speaker 1: And and sometimes it was because I didn't do my homework. 124 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: Sometimes it would be like key, when I was away, 125 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 1: I noticed that my bed wasn't made up. Did you 126 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: get in my bed? Were you in the bed with 127 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 1: the babysitter? And this was actually before I was in 128 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: bed with the babysitter, and I was like, no, I 129 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 1: wasn't in bed with the babysitter. Mama, yes you were. 130 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: But I realized early that my mom had a hard 131 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: time with her partner. I was gonna get it somehow 132 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:05,919 Speaker 1: or another. She was gonna take it out on me. 133 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: And and then after I got it, she was gonna apologize, 134 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: She was gonna hold me tight. We were gonna she 135 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: was gonna, you know, and that I always am. I 136 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: tell her that I said this in a book. That 137 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: was the confusing part, because I loved him more than 138 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: anything in the world. I was my first teacher, my 139 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: best friend, anything you can imagine, you know what I'm saying. 140 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: And I just was like, man, I would never ever 141 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: strike my mother. And at that point I was as 142 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: big as she was. And then I was like, I 143 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: don't really want to hurt my mom at all. At 144 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 1: that point. But when I you know, when I got 145 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: to high school, like most high schoolers, I was like, Okay, 146 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 1: I'm gonna get you back by doing stuff like trying 147 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: to have sex with my girlfriend in her bed when 148 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: she wasn't there, you know, breaking into the house, getting 149 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 1: terrible gray like all of these things that I know 150 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: would hurt her without physically, And I would never cuss 151 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: out anything, but you know, I was trying to hurt her. 152 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: I was trying to retaliate for what I felt was 153 00:07:56,320 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: like unfair treatment, and I want be held accountable for 154 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: that tool do you know what I'm saying? Not just 155 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 1: as I'm not saying it's the same sort of abusiveness, 156 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: but I was definitely trying to hurt my mom without 157 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 1: touching her. Do you think you knew that then or 158 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: do you know it now? I mean I want to 159 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: say I didn't know what I was doing, but I 160 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: knew what I was doing. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, 161 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: there's so many seas, you know, there's so many I mean, 162 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: this is all families. There's so many secrets. But my 163 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: mother and I never talked about sex, and she had 164 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: a hard time, like keeping money, so we were the 165 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: type of family who are like, we'd have cable TV 166 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: one month out of the year and then she wouldn't 167 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 1: pay the bill and then the ship would be gone. Right, 168 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: But when we had it, Remember one time she called me, 169 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: I don't know if you remember this, but if you 170 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 1: if you did not have cinemax and you turn the cinemax, 171 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: it would be all blurry. Do you know what I'm 172 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:52,680 Speaker 1: skinnamax dudel kind of make out Nikki people in there. 173 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:55,079 Speaker 1: So one time she saw me watching cinemax. Really, I mean, 174 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 1: it wasn't you coudn't see anything? She said, what are 175 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 1: you watching? Keep I'm like nothing, And then she kind 176 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:03,439 Speaker 1: of a us sort of conversation with me about pornography, 177 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, my mama doesn't like me 178 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: to watch NIKKEI things so right. So we didn't have 179 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 1: a VCR. I brought my my friends VCR. His father 180 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: had all these porn tapes. I brought him to my house, 181 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,959 Speaker 1: snug him in my room, and watched something that night. 182 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 1: But I left it there in my room. Of course, 183 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: I wanted her to see it, and when I got home, 184 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 1: I got it. Do you know what I'm saying? Changed 185 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:31,439 Speaker 1: his schools in middle school and ends up one of 186 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,559 Speaker 1: a small number of black students in a predominantly white school. 187 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: Well we knew, I mean, you know, we we're never 188 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 1: going to school with white kids before and in the Mississippi, 189 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: you know, whiteness, a particular kind of whiteness, is pervasive. 190 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: And we all had televisions and we went to the movie, 191 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 1: so you know, we weren't unfamiliar with whiteness and white people. 192 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: We were we were unfamiliar with real white people. And 193 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:57,959 Speaker 1: because we didn't have any contact with real white folks, 194 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:02,439 Speaker 1: you know, we knew Jack Tripper and Laverne as surely 195 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 1: and all the cartoons. You can imagine. It isn't a 196 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: happy situation. And k s A's grades start falling. His 197 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 1: mother gets his report card and becomes physically abusive, but 198 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: she only strikes him in places on his body where 199 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 1: bruises won't be seen. This is something Kis and his 200 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 1: friends the other black students have in common. They talk 201 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: openly with each other about the difference between getting a whooping, 202 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 1: getting a beating, and getting beaten the funk up. I mean, 203 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: I wasn't the only kid who went from getting those beatings, 204 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 1: like where you could come to school and you can 205 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: see the wells on people's bodies. And again, my culture, 206 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 1: and I think American culture generally even didn't one admitute 207 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 1: like we use human to kind of sue. Right. So 208 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: back with other school we would come to school and 209 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: we'll be like, yo, you got a web in his morning, 210 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: you know, like laughing. And at St. Richard to school 211 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 1: I went to. If I acted up and my mom 212 00:10:57,640 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 1: daught I acted up, you know, she would get me 213 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: in play is. It's complicated because we also had to 214 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 1: wear uniforms, so you know there were long sleeve shirts 215 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: and stuff like that. But she definitely would not get 216 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: me on my neck, you know, she wouldn't get me 217 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 1: anywhere in my face because she didn't want those white 218 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: people to think to pathologize her and us, and she 219 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: didn't want them to be like, oh, look at these 220 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: poor black kids come to school with wels on their body. 221 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 1: And that happened to me, and that was and that 222 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: happened to a lot of people. But what's important is 223 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 1: that you know, by eighth grade, you know, I played 224 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: a lot of sports. I was like eighth grade, I 225 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 1: was like five ten, two oh five, five eleven, two 226 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: oh five. My mom was five four hundred, So I 227 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: just think it's something very very very unspoken and intimate 228 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:44,079 Speaker 1: about the ways. I don't know how much of it 229 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 1: has to do with race either, but like sometimes smaller parents, 230 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 1: you know, beat up on bigger kids, and for me, 231 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: like I was bigger than her partner too, you know, 232 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: so she was part of me. Thinks she thought she 233 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: could not hurt me. That's what I want to believe, 234 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 1: that she was hitting me like that because she thought 235 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:00,079 Speaker 1: it was so big and she couldn't hurt me. But actually, no, 236 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 1: that's not true, because I let her know early on 237 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:05,079 Speaker 1: that it did hurt. But then after a while it 238 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 1: stopped hurting and stopped hurting because I was so angry 239 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: she tried to hit me. I just catched a belt. 240 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 1: Just look at her. She keep on doing I just 241 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 1: catched the belt, and you know, one point, I called 242 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 1: her not threw it, and I looked at her in 243 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: a way for the first time my life where I 244 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:22,559 Speaker 1: was like, nah, it's not gonna happen again. I was 245 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: never gonna touch my mom, but I just wanted her 246 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 1: to know that, like, you know, I'm You're not just 247 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: gonna beat me I mean, I'm done. I'm letting you 248 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 1: beat me, right, you know you can. You can keep 249 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 1: trying to beat me, but it's not gonna work anymore. 250 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 1: You know, it strikes me as you're talking about this 251 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: that there was something that there's like an element of 252 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: it that was like ritual, absolutely, because you each had 253 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: these different roles to play and and both were controlled. 254 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 1: Like your mom was controlled in that she didn't hit 255 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: certain parts of your body. She wasn't out of control. 256 00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 1: You know, it's so profoundly complicated at it because in 257 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 1: the dynamic between k. S A and his mom, she's 258 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,719 Speaker 1: acting out of a kind of maternal terror, but that 259 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 1: maternal terror actually terrorizes her son. She knows what can 260 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 1: happen to young black men, and so she tries to 261 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: teach k. S A to write and learn and think 262 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 1: his way towards protection. But protection isn't possible, so she 263 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,679 Speaker 1: beats him. It makes all kinds of sense and no 264 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: kinds of sense, something he explores in his book Heavy. 265 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:33,679 Speaker 1: I think the story is much more complicated. Right then, 266 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 1: young black mother beats big black son. Big Black Son 267 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:40,439 Speaker 1: becomes a writer and writes about the beatings. Right. The 268 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 1: book is about much more than that. But but, but 269 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 1: the odd part about it is that my mom's fear 270 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 1: was that that the nation and my state, white supremacy, 271 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 1: white power manifested in my state in the nation, would 272 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: harm me in ways she could never and she wanted 273 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 1: to protect me. Like I grew up in the era 274 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: where police officers would come to your school. They'd be 275 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: called officer, and they bring up sometimes the biggest kid 276 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 1: in the school, make an example of him. If you 277 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: don't do right, this is how we're gonna treat you. Okay, fine, 278 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: But you know I had a lot of problems in 279 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 1: high school. I didn't but drinking wasn't one of my problems. 280 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 1: Smoking wasn't one of my problems. I saw how addiction 281 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: ravaged my family. I wasn't about to do that. But 282 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: cops still jack me up saying I had cracked. Cops 283 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: still would be like, I saw you throw crack out 284 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: of a window. You know what I'm saying. Cops would 285 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: still like have me embarrassed outside of the road, handcuffed 286 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 1: in front of people. And I know how people think 287 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: people dry body said a big black boy in handcuffs, 288 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 1: They're gonna be like, oh, that mocker there's something wrong. 289 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: Often I never I'm not trying. Ian. I am not 290 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 1: somebody who bleeds innocent. I'm not innocent, but I am 291 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 1: definitely innocent of ever doing anything or police officers that 292 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: I did, But that didn't stop me from calling them 293 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 1: negative and stopped them from putting guns to my face 294 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 1: guns to my head several times before I was eighteen 295 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: years old. This reminds me of something kiss mother says 296 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: to him before he starts school at St. Richard's. Here's Kisa. 297 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: I sat in the principal's office thinking about what you 298 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: told me the day before we started, saying, Richard, be 299 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: twice as excellent and be twice as careful from this 300 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: point on. You said everything you thought your new changes tomorrow. 301 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: Being twice as excellent as white folks will get you 302 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: half of what they get. Being anything less will get 303 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: you hell. I assume we were already twice as excellent 304 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: as the white kids at St. Richard's, precisely because their 305 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: library looked like a cathedral and ours was an old 306 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: trailer on cinder blocks. I thought you should have told 307 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: me to be twice as excellent as you, my grandmama, 308 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: since y'all were the most excellent people I knew. I 309 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 1: got kicked out of school for taking a library book 310 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: out of the library. And I just think it's interesting 311 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: because my mom's belief was that, like, if you immerse 312 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: yourself in books, you can protect yourself from them. And 313 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 1: what I learned, like eighteen nineteen, is that sometimes sometimes 314 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: the appearance of being like well read or uppity or 315 00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: whatever to police officers or white folks don't have your 316 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 1: best interests at would make them punish you more. You know, 317 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: I got I got kicked out of school, literally for 318 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: taking the library book out of the library that I 319 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 1: paid to go to and taking it back. It was 320 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: all on the news, so it embarrassed my grandmama because 321 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 1: it looked like her grandson got kicked out of school 322 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 1: for theft. That was the most painful thing to happen 323 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: in my family at the time because it was so 324 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: public and it was and I didn't do I didn't 325 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: I took a library book and I brought it back. 326 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying something. My point is she 327 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: was right that these people won't do whatever they could 328 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: to harm and hurt me and people who look like me, 329 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: But she was wrong in that, like the meetings would 330 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 1: help because when that should happen to me, what I 331 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 1: wanted to do is fight them. I wanted to I 332 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: wanted to physically fight them. When you put handcuffs on me, 333 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 1: I'm gonna try to. I am gonna try to fight back. 334 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: And that's gonna make it worse. Do you see what 335 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: I'm saying, Because I was talking like you do fight? 336 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: You fight? You fight when people do things wrong, do 337 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: you fight. You can't fight the police unless you have guns. 338 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: I didn't have guns. We're going to take a short break. 339 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: His mom tries hard to control the unruly son she 340 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:16,439 Speaker 1: loves so much, pushing him to read right, speak quote 341 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 1: unquote properly. But then there's another way she tries to 342 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 1: control him, having to do with food, what and how 343 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 1: much he eats. My mama was somebody who just like 344 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 1: his adamant and she was that I read all these books. 345 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,439 Speaker 1: She was equally admit that I don't eat um, not 346 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:35,159 Speaker 1: that I start myself, but like I only eat it 347 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:38,160 Speaker 1: like asparagus, and I mean when I'm like between eight 348 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 1: and fourteen years old asparagus. And she like Brussels sprouts. 349 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: And her money was really weird too, so she would 350 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: buy like all this booty food we really couldn't afford 351 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:49,879 Speaker 1: at the beginning of the month. I lives in fucking 352 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: pump and nickel brow, Like no twelve year old, I 353 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:54,440 Speaker 1: didn't know. I didn't know what's over? Who want to 354 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 1: eat that kind of ship? And I definitely didn't want 355 00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 1: to eat that um. But it's signified the same thing 356 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: as the King's English. Absolutely, she really believed that if 357 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: you ate light white people, read light white people, walk 358 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 1: like white people, you can protect yourself a white people. 359 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: But she raised a kid who was like sort of curious, 360 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: you know, I always just I was like, my look 361 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 1: at dr King like they blew his damn head off, 362 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: damn near and he was. He dressed well, he had 363 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,440 Speaker 1: like a beautiful Southern twine, but he was one of 364 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 1: the most eloquent speakers ever. Right, look at you, Mama, 365 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,199 Speaker 1: like you do speak to kings English in public, and 366 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,439 Speaker 1: I can see you suffering. So this sort of like 367 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 1: deprivation in the hopes that the deprivation will make you 368 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 1: less scary. I don't know. Maybe it works, but it 369 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: didn't work for me. So when I left my mama's house, 370 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: partially because the food she she did have in the 371 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 1: house if we have food was not it was kind 372 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 1: of like not gross, it was gross, you know what 373 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 1: I'm saying to me? And I go to my friend's 374 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: house yea, and they have you know, Golden Graham and 375 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 1: like all kind of like those little frozen hamburgers in 376 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:00,639 Speaker 1: the box you can sizzlin and that. So I would 377 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:04,199 Speaker 1: just I just I just eight and eight and eight. 378 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: Whenever I left with my grandmother, who cooked a lot 379 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 1: of healthy food because she had a massive garden, but 380 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 1: she also like like to cook cars and cake. Did 381 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: she encourage me to eat? And I never heard the 382 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: word fat in her house from her, Do you know 383 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 1: what I'm saying. So I'm going to say, yes, I 384 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 1: was trying to protect myself, but also part of me 385 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,959 Speaker 1: was trying to push back. I guess my mom's like 386 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: I think easy mode of discipline, which was like a 387 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 1: kind of like deprivation. There's a way in which I 388 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:35,399 Speaker 1: think certain things lodge in the body, right, Like I 389 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: have a long time yoga practice, and one of the 390 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:41,160 Speaker 1: things that the yogis won't say is that certain emotional 391 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:43,479 Speaker 1: states actually live in the body. Like if you do 392 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: like a a hip opening pose eventually, if you stay 393 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: in it long enough, grief will like start to rise 394 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,120 Speaker 1: to the surface. You know, you'll actually start to cry. 395 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I've experienced like the ways in which certain 396 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 1: emotional states kind of sit dormant, you know, but like 397 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 1: their stories, they're complete. The Yogis called them some saras or, 398 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:10,479 Speaker 1: which also translates a scar interestingly, like they live within us. 399 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: And I think when we are driven or there's a 400 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: kind of undercurrent of shame that most of us experienced 401 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: some degree or another, whether we're in touch with it 402 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:26,400 Speaker 1: or not. That is kind of like the river beneath 403 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,719 Speaker 1: you know, sort of our our daily existence. It manifests 404 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 1: itself in somewhere or another. And how we feel about 405 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: our bodies, and in your case, to the becoming bigger 406 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,440 Speaker 1: and the way that on the one hand it sort 407 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,439 Speaker 1: of afforded you a certain kind of weight, you know, 408 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:49,679 Speaker 1: of protection, and on the other hand seemed to also 409 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,680 Speaker 1: have go along with it a not feeling great about 410 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 1: your body, or feeling like, you know, girls wouldn't want 411 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 1: to be with you because of your body, yea, or 412 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,679 Speaker 1: or that they would because they were scared, which was 413 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 1: I mean, And and there's no there's no evidence to 414 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 1: substantiate it, but that's what I felt, do you know 415 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 1: what I mean, Like even to this day. I mean 416 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 1: I was an interview and I said this before, so 417 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 1: I guess I can say it here. It's just like, 418 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 1: you know, I never felt comfortable even when we would 419 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: play like these games when we were like eight. It 420 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:24,399 Speaker 1: was called high talked about this but kind of go 421 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 1: getting you go, you hide, and then whoever it was 422 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:28,880 Speaker 1: a person has has to confine people. And the whole 423 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,640 Speaker 1: point is that like young people are in the closets 424 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: or hallways and it's dark and you get to touch people. 425 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: I was just always afraid to touch anybody one because 426 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:40,399 Speaker 1: I was just bigger, and but I wasn't afraid to 427 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 1: want to be touched. But you know, when I started 428 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 1: to get older in hip puberty, like most people, like 429 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 1: you know, desire was a thing, but I just never 430 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: felt comfortable. Um what did they used to call it? 431 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 1: Making a move or passing a note? Did you like me? 432 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: Circle yes or no? Like you know, none of that 433 00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 1: kind of shif. It was just I just thought that people, 434 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,479 Speaker 1: if if particularly if young girls you know, who were 435 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: twelve my age liked me at the time, I thought 436 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 1: it was because they thought I was going to hurt them. 437 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 1: But there's no reason for me to think that other 438 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: than I mean, there are reasons for me to think that, right, 439 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 1: But I never had anybody be like I thought you 440 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: would hurt me if you didn't blah blah blah. Well, 441 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 1: and of course you also equated, you know, loving and 442 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: being hurt. So k s A gets kicked out of 443 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: school for theft of a book. Even with his complicated 444 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 1: academic history, he manages to transfer from his first college, Millsaps, 445 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 1: to Oberlin, a school that recognizes his gifts his potential, 446 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: but it's all coming at a high price. In his 447 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 1: desire to change himself, he starts to radically change his 448 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 1: body in unhealthy ways at the highest in Millsaps. In 449 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 1: my first college, I was like three nine pounds. By 450 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,159 Speaker 1: the time I get to Old Milan, I'm two hundred 451 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 1: and nine pounds, Like first day of school, and nobody 452 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: looked at me and thought that I could ever been. 453 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:06,919 Speaker 1: I was like a very athletic two nine pounds, and 454 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:08,439 Speaker 1: then I started to lose more ways. They're not going 455 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:12,639 Speaker 1: to nine or one nine nine? What was the turning point? 456 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 1: What was what do you remember about the moment where 457 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:19,440 Speaker 1: you're like, I'm now going to start eating differently, exercising, 458 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:21,920 Speaker 1: and I'm gonna I'm gonna lose that weight. I'm gonna 459 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: go in there and be this smaller person. I just 460 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: wanted absolute control over my body because my body was 461 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: in Oberland, Ohio, because some white man decided that he 462 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 1: didn't want me at his school. Do you see what 463 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 1: I'm saying? And there weren't enough people around who all 464 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 1: saw that the ship was wrong, who fought enough to 465 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 1: make it happen. That meant, like I had, I needed 466 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: to protect myself somehow. And so it wasn't just the eating, 467 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 1: but my writing ritual kicked up. You know, started writing 468 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 1: two hours before nine a row, three in the morning, 469 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 1: three to night. I read. I ran in the morning, 470 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,360 Speaker 1: I ran at night, and then you know, I got sick. 471 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 1: I got up. That's what Seeing that the number go down, 472 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:04,640 Speaker 1: it felt so good. I played back. You know, it's 473 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 1: Captaine the basketball team. I weighed myself before the games. 474 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 1: I wash myself after the game. If I didn't lose 475 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: eight pounds of water weight during the game, I go 476 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,120 Speaker 1: on the song and run more. I just was like, yo, 477 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: I can control, and I was trying to hurt myself, 478 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:18,879 Speaker 1: like I'm not trying to put this on other people. 479 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: But you know, if you play any sort of athletics 480 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: in college B A, D, three D two or three one, 481 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,360 Speaker 1: they're gonna run you to death. And if you run 482 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: on top of that, it's not gonna be good for 483 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 1: your body. Do you know what I'm saying? And I 484 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: just I wanted to be smaller. And then I just 485 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 1: started to get all of this crazy attention from not 486 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: just women, but women, from queer boys, from supposed straight 487 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,439 Speaker 1: bowl a people were just like, oh my god, you 488 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 1: look so good, and I would I was dysmorphotuld I 489 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 1: was like, what, you know, I still thought I looked 490 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,880 Speaker 1: like I looked at three pounds. And then one day, 491 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 1: you know, we're looking at tape for basketball, and I 492 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 1: saw myself on tape, and you know, I was like, 493 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: I'm gonna look good. But you know, I was very 494 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,399 Speaker 1: musculine and very lean and very fast. And I just 495 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: remember sitting in that room with those my friends and 496 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 1: just like crying in your back because I was just like, 497 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 1: what the like, you just created a body without even 498 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,399 Speaker 1: know when you created a body. But at what what cost. 499 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: People just stopped treating me like I was fat. That's 500 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 1: why I can't even imagine what it feels like for 501 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,400 Speaker 1: women to be treated that way, because I think men 502 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,359 Speaker 1: get treated a lot nicer. But I just people stopped 503 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:37,160 Speaker 1: treating me like I was fat. So they stopped treating 504 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,919 Speaker 1: me like a particular kind of threat, which meant that 505 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: I could do much more harmed at people because they weren't. 506 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:44,919 Speaker 1: They weren't they were disarmed because oh this guy, so 507 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. So that's when I started 508 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: to realize that sometimes those kinds of people could do 509 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 1: the most harm to different people, like those really attractive, 510 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 1: supposedly well read people who listened. And that's who I was. 511 00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: I was a great in a great shape. I read 512 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 1: a lot books. I love to listen, And then no 513 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: one would have known what was going like what was 514 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: going on, you know, inside of you. And there's this 515 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:09,360 Speaker 1: there's this line in your book right around the time 516 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:11,920 Speaker 1: you get to Oberlin, I will not tell those friends 517 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: what my body remembered. I will become a handsome, fine 518 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: together brother with lots of secrets. There's also this line, 519 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 1: flying and crashing were what people in our family did 520 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,640 Speaker 1: when we were alone, ashamed and scared to death flying 521 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:29,879 Speaker 1: and crashing. You know, it's kind of what we've been 522 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: talking about too, right, It's like both you can't fly, 523 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: you can't just fly, not okay, not possible to just fly, 524 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: trying to find a way to crash. I'm trying to 525 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 1: embody like. To me, at that point, that was like 526 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:47,919 Speaker 1: passing judgment on my family for being fat and for 527 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,680 Speaker 1: being gambling addicted, and for my grandmother like she was 528 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: a cutter, like she used to hurt herself. So at 529 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 1: that point in the book, I'm saying, I'm so happy 530 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,639 Speaker 1: I'm not like them. While that whole chapter is about 531 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: it's about body is morpha is about it and erected 532 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,399 Speaker 1: about beliemia. There's a recurrent line in that chapter, I 533 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,880 Speaker 1: just love losing weight. So, you know, I wanted people 534 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,399 Speaker 1: to understand that the book was not passing judgment on 535 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,959 Speaker 1: my family, But that's how fucked up I was, Like 536 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 1: I'd gotten out of that. I'm the skinny dude, I'm 537 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,360 Speaker 1: in grad school, I'm about to go to teach Vasser. Here, 538 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,439 Speaker 1: my grandmama is in the hospital, she can't take care 539 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:22,119 Speaker 1: of herself. Here, my mama is. She can't take care 540 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: of her money. Here, my whole family is are all 541 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: you know, according to doctors, morri Lee obese. But here 542 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,160 Speaker 1: I am in great shape, grad school, got everything going 543 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 1: on for me. But I'm just trying to disappear, you know, 544 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: just trying hard as I can to disappear. But I 545 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:42,400 Speaker 1: didn't have that language. So ks A graduates from Oberlin 546 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: and gets his first teaching job. His mother has instilled 547 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 1: in him not only a sensitivity to words and language, 548 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: but to teaching as a vocation, and he lands a 549 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: great position at Vassar College. Now, Vasser is about as 550 00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: far landscape wise from Jackson, Mississippi as you can get 551 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 1: while still staying in the United States. It's a culture, 552 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 1: I know well, a small liberal arts college in New 553 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 1: York State's Hudson Valley, all red brick buildings, white columns, arches, 554 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: and shady paths. It's here at Vasser that kas eating 555 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 1: disorder grows even more dangerous. You're six one and you're 556 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: a d pounds and you're running, you know, dozens of 557 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 1: miles a day, checking my body every day, checking your 558 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 1: body fat. It's at one point, it's two. So during 559 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: those years at Vasser. There's a moment where your mother 560 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: comes visits you. She's very proud of you, you know, 561 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: And which is interesting too, because it's so much about 562 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: what do we see when we see other people. What 563 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 1: she sees when she sees you at Vasser is that 564 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 1: it all, It all works. Everything she ever wanted, It 565 00:28:53,520 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: all works. Institution and all that disciplining and reading that 566 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: she did. What your mother sees when she sees you 567 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: in Poughkeepsie is that. But of course that's not what 568 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 1: it is at all. Oh No, I mean the hard 569 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 1: part about all of that is that some of that 570 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 1: coincides with the Obama ascensionvention. Thing about Obama is that, 571 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 1: like there was no imadinitive template for him before he 572 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: becomes president, right, nobody's like that, or we want this 573 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 1: guy with his African name from Chicago, used to be 574 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: community organized and married, beautiful black woman, um to be president. 575 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 1: Nobody's talking about that ship, right, But that's what she wanted. 576 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: She wanted she I mean when I say that, she 577 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: wanted in terms of his body, in terms of how 578 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: he speaks, in terms of how he manages white people, 579 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: like we've rarely seen Obama. I think honestly respond to 580 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: some of the white terret it has been put on 581 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 1: his back, right. And as soon as O, Mamma gota 582 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: like that, she starts crying because she's like, they're gonna 583 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 1: kill him. But I'm like, Mama, that's who you wanted 584 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: me to be. You wanted me to be this dude, 585 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: so like something doesn't make sense, Okay, just be safe, 586 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: do you see what I'm saying. So life was incredible 587 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: at Vaster because of my relationship with my students. You know, 588 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 1: I get the job at Vaster when I'm almost twenty six. 589 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 1: Most of my colleagues are older than my grandmama. That's 590 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: no distourd that that I'm trying to dis the grandmama 591 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: age people. What I'm saying when you're twenty six and 592 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 1: you come in, you know, you're talking about isolation and 593 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: a loneness. I went there alone, and the people I 594 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 1: had the most uncommon with were my students, right, And 595 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 1: lots of those students had never been taught by a 596 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 1: professor who was not white, and they definitely have been 597 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,239 Speaker 1: taught by like a young black person. So they, I mean, 598 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: lots of the white ones did, but lots of the 599 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,720 Speaker 1: folks of color, particularly black students like found safety and 600 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 1: me right. And I was teaching James Harlan, which is 601 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,239 Speaker 1: ironic because bad one is always talk about teaching us 602 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: we need to record with our past. Our past has 603 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 1: never passed. It is always in us talking about love 604 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 1: and all my classes. Meanwhile, I'm like, I'm literally trying 605 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 1: to disappear. I'm literally trying to kill myself right, And 606 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 1: the only reason I did not it's because of my 607 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: body stopped working by like my legs stopped. I could 608 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 1: not run anymore because if I could have run, I 609 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 1: would have run myself into nothingness. But my legs stopped. 610 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: But the most shameful part of it to me is 611 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 1: that while I'm teaching these creative writing courses and teaching 612 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 1: these English lit courses, teach the African American led courses 613 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: to these students who would listen and believe anything I say, 614 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: I'm being wholly dishonest to them, coolly dishonest to them. 615 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 1: And I just if I could do it over again, 616 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 1: I would doubts what I would do over again. I 617 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 1: don't think I was fair to those kids. I know 618 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: those kids love me, and like I wanted, I'm not 619 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:46,479 Speaker 1: saying they wanted me to sit down and give him 620 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 1: my whole life story. But I was just lying to 621 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: them all the time. I just lied every I mean 622 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 1: just teaches that a lot of teaches a lot of kids. 623 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 1: But but they expected more for me. And you know, 624 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 1: those students love me, they care for me. Um. But 625 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 1: I didn't do right by them, partially because personally, because 626 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: I was sick and I needed them a lot more 627 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 1: than I let on. I didn't want to be hanging 628 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 1: with the fucking sixty five year old white dudes with 629 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 1: the beards and ship talking about what kind of new 630 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 1: vest they were gonna wear next week. That wasn't what 631 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 1: I was interested in. As I listened to k S, 632 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 1: I can't help but think he's being too hard on himself. 633 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 1: I've been teaching all my writing life as well, and 634 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 1: it's a complex dance we teachers do, modeling what you 635 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 1: can impart as a teacher. It's not as simple as 636 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 1: you're either walking the walk or you're not. Sometimes you're 637 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,520 Speaker 1: trying to impart something to your students from a place 638 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: of your own longing, a place of be better, be 639 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: better than I am. Right now, let me be clear 640 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: about they want to because I'm kind of talking around 641 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 1: what I what I really want to say. They would 642 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 1: want to hear me say I know what you're feeling 643 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 1: because I've been there, and I would not. I would 644 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:00,080 Speaker 1: talk to them about a lot of things that at 645 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 1: them in the parts of who I was. But when 646 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 1: they started talking about like their relationships with eating disorders, 647 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 1: their relationships with sexual violence, their relationships with parental abuse, 648 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 1: and they would ask me, I literally would say, you know, 649 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 1: I don't have that experience, but I definitely hear you. 650 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 1: I would literally lie. And part of that as big pedog, actually, 651 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 1: I wasn't sure what you you know, like do you 652 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 1: give that or do you But what you don't do 653 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: is lie. And what I should have done is been like, 654 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: you know, I've experienced that kind of stuff too, but 655 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: I'm not sure that this relationship can hold my giving 656 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 1: that to you, so if you want to continue, and 657 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 1: what I really should have done, it's like there's a 658 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 1: counselor center right over there. Let me hold your hand, 659 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 1: let's walk over there together. My students would come be like, 660 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 1: you know, like I did this, you know, And because 661 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 1: I wanted to be everything to them, I never was 662 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 1: like I don't know how to help you now, but 663 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: these people do. So that's what I'm trying to say 664 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 1: when I'm saying they were open to me partially because 665 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:52,959 Speaker 1: of my age, because of how I look, because I'm 666 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 1: a race, because I did care, but they gave me 667 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 1: opportunity after opportunity to talk about the stuff. I talked about. 668 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 1: It heavy, and I'm not saying I should have put 669 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 1: that on them, but I don't know if I should lie. 670 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 1: This is one of the things I hear again and 671 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 1: again when it comes to family secrets, whether it's the 672 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:12,879 Speaker 1: people who have been coming to my events for Inheritance 673 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 1: or my guests on this podcast. So often folks who 674 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,240 Speaker 1: have been part of a secret end up becoming secret 675 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 1: keepers too. So Key say is keeping his own secret, 676 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 1: which is that he's not okay. I mean, he's really 677 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 1: not okay. There's this way in which all of these 678 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,799 Speaker 1: things were tied up together for you in this really 679 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: complicated stew and then it becomes like the work of 680 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 1: a lifetime. I mean, that's the way that I think 681 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: of it is. We like Hollywood endings, we like fairytale endings. Um, 682 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 1: we like the whole idea that there's like some kind 683 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 1: of bright line between you know, before and after. And 684 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 1: and that's something you were trying to do with your 685 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 1: body too, righte Like now pounds, nothing's going to touch me. 686 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,360 Speaker 1: And meanwhile, you're mean the same exact thing, it just 687 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 1: looked different on the outside. We're going to take a 688 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:24,520 Speaker 1: quick break. So when Kisa's mom makes that visit to 689 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 1: vass her, it ought to be a triumphant moment, a 690 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:33,239 Speaker 1: transcendent moment. He's done it right. Her son is an accomplished, 691 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 1: tenured professor, a published writer, a thin, elegant black man 692 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 1: who speaks the King's English, all of which makes him untouchable, 693 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 1: right right, kiss mother takes him shopping and insists on 694 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,920 Speaker 1: buying him expensive furniture for his home. He doesn't want 695 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 1: her to do it, but she does. And then when 696 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 1: she returns home to Jackson, she starts asking him for money, 697 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 1: more and more money. And he'd be ends to wonder 698 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 1: if she has a gambling problem. I mean, it wouldn't 699 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 1: surprise him. He could imagine anyone in his family being 700 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:12,920 Speaker 1: an addict, crashing and flying, crashing and flying. What he 701 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,520 Speaker 1: couldn't imagine was that his mother might be stealing from him. 702 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 1: But then she asks him for money for house repairs 703 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 1: and something doesn't seem quite right. Nothing in the world 704 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,360 Speaker 1: she could ask me for it that I would say, no, nothing. 705 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:28,400 Speaker 1: She could ask me for fifty g s if I 706 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,279 Speaker 1: had forty nine, I go get the other g from 707 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 1: somebody and give it to it. And when that situation 708 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 1: happened at the house, when she was asking me for 709 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 1: some money to fix the foundation and to fix a chimney, uh, 710 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 1: the first time in my life, I questioned. I was like, Okay, well, 711 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 1: can I just talk to the contractor guy so I 712 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:46,839 Speaker 1: can try to get the price down? And she hung 713 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 1: up the phone. And then she calls back and she's like, hey, 714 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:50,719 Speaker 1: I need the money. You don't give it to me 715 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 1: not And I was like, uh, Mama, can I just 716 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:55,439 Speaker 1: talk to the person to see where the money is going? 717 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,480 Speaker 1: She hung up the phone again, so I called Grandma. Grandma. 718 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,680 Speaker 1: Mama said that the needs breaking in the foundations messed up. 719 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:03,800 Speaker 1: Grandma was like, no, I'm just over there. Ain't not 720 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 1: going on all day. I mean, thank goodness, children can 721 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,320 Speaker 1: be this sort of like, I don't believe in innocence, 722 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 1: but I think sometimes we can really believe that our 723 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 1: parents would not attempt to do financial harm to us. 724 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 1: And I don't know how to explain it, but like, 725 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,360 Speaker 1: ain't nothing in my heart broke like that in my 726 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:27,800 Speaker 1: life when I realized, Oh, my mom, for for reasons 727 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 1: that are beyond her, is still in for me, and 728 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,479 Speaker 1: still in from my Grandma, the two people on earth 729 00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 1: who would never ever, ever ever still from her, who 730 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 1: would do anything possible to give to her. I didn't 731 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:46,279 Speaker 1: understand gambling addiction at the time. He s A has 732 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 1: no idea how long his mother's gambling has been going on, 733 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 1: but as he thinks back through their history, it starts 734 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,359 Speaker 1: to make sense that it's been there for a long time, 735 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:59,760 Speaker 1: in the background. After the whoopings, the beatings, the various 736 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,879 Speaker 1: minds of abuse, this realization that his mother had been 737 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 1: stealing from him makes him crazy his word, that's how 738 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,960 Speaker 1: he describes it. He rethinks some of his history with her, 739 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,719 Speaker 1: and at the same time, his body is breaking down. 740 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,640 Speaker 1: He has herniated discs from all the punishing physical exertion, 741 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:22,360 Speaker 1: and an abnormal growth on his left hip. But still 742 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,280 Speaker 1: he tries to burn calories, moving his arms, trying to sweat, 743 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:30,279 Speaker 1: trying to control the life that's burning all around him. 744 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:33,759 Speaker 1: So one of the reasons I wrote that book was 745 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,279 Speaker 1: because I think my mother and my father have had, 746 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:38,560 Speaker 1: like lots of parents in this country have had different 747 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,680 Speaker 1: relationships with addiction, but most of the ones I know 748 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:46,320 Speaker 1: have never attempted to publicly articulate that journey, not just 749 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:51,800 Speaker 1: for readers, but two people they love. I told I 750 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,880 Speaker 1: was writing it too. She told me she didn't think 751 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,480 Speaker 1: that was a good idea. Asked lots of questions that 752 00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,600 Speaker 1: we never talked about. She answered some she dinna answer some, 753 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:03,480 Speaker 1: I'll talk to my grandmother, And my grandmother pretty much 754 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:05,279 Speaker 1: answered all the questions that I add that I had 755 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 1: the nerve to ask. And then I just had all 756 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:09,359 Speaker 1: this stuff, and I'm like, all right, I'm gonna trying 757 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 1: to create a piece of art, not like a tell all, 758 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,440 Speaker 1: because there's so much, like the most dramatic stuff in 759 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:16,720 Speaker 1: that that that I think happened in that time period. 760 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:18,960 Speaker 1: The three most dramatic things are not in that book. 761 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 1: But you know, it's just like an artful rendering, but 762 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,600 Speaker 1: also an artful attempt to get us to love each other, 763 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:28,800 Speaker 1: to save each other, to not give our money away, 764 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:31,319 Speaker 1: to know that we're valuable enough to at least talk 765 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 1: through pain, which is something I just think we are 766 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,080 Speaker 1: not good at. We don't know how to talk through pain. 767 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,160 Speaker 1: You alluded to it, but when when you realize that 768 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,520 Speaker 1: you're you think your mother was trying to just basically 769 00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 1: steal from you. That coincided with your body falling apart 770 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 1: around that same time, and then you began putting weight 771 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:57,799 Speaker 1: back on. Yeah, I mean yes, that struck me as 772 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,800 Speaker 1: actually a good thing for you. When I got to 773 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:03,279 Speaker 1: that part, it is like, oh, he's gonna let this 774 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:08,480 Speaker 1: go now, like this form of masochistic you know, self 775 00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:15,440 Speaker 1: destructive body punishing. Um. Did it feel that way to you? No, 776 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,879 Speaker 1: In a moment, it felt just shameful because everybody because 777 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 1: only people, because the people who knew me there, they 778 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:23,279 Speaker 1: only knew me as a skinny person. So they were 779 00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:26,279 Speaker 1: just like, what's wrong with you? Do you know what 780 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:28,400 Speaker 1: I mean? And this is when like they this is 781 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:30,399 Speaker 1: when I went from one fifty nine, one eight nine 782 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:32,520 Speaker 1: or one seventy nine, they'd be like, are you okay? 783 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,560 Speaker 1: And I'm like, I'm good. What that literally, I'm not 784 00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:38,799 Speaker 1: gonna this is not hyperboly. That's just say my life 785 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:44,560 Speaker 1: by that ship means the one to punch of his 786 00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:47,839 Speaker 1: body breaking down, and his discovery that his mom had 787 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:51,719 Speaker 1: been stealing from him. This was the lowest point at 788 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:57,279 Speaker 1: which it became possible to begin again. If my legs 789 00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,960 Speaker 1: allowed me to, I would have run myself into disappearing, 790 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,279 Speaker 1: is no doubt. And and so I did not get 791 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:05,840 Speaker 1: healthy because I started to like just try to punish 792 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:10,000 Speaker 1: myself with food. But I mean should I wouldn't have 793 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:13,480 Speaker 1: been here right now had that not happened. I just 794 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:15,479 Speaker 1: want my mother to be better at loving one another, 795 00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 1: and I want us supposed to be better at talking sincerely. 796 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:20,160 Speaker 1: I don't think sincerity is something that we don't talk 797 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 1: about enough in his college Sincerely about joy, sincerely about pain. 798 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 1: The day before K. S. A And I had this conversation, 799 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:33,040 Speaker 1: he received the Andrew Carnegie Medal for Excellence in Nonfiction. 800 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,479 Speaker 1: This award is a big deal in the literary world, 801 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,480 Speaker 1: and kiss Mom was in the audience. As he accepted 802 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,360 Speaker 1: the award, he asked her to join him on stage. 803 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,439 Speaker 1: I wish I could have seen it. This remarkable mother 804 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:53,600 Speaker 1: and son who continue, because of everything, despite everything, to 805 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:58,120 Speaker 1: stumble toward one another in all their humanness. I wrote 806 00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,120 Speaker 1: this book as offering being Mama, can we talk? And 807 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 1: sometimes she says yes, and most of the times she 808 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,160 Speaker 1: says no. But at least Lease is out there and 809 00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:17,200 Speaker 1: we've got opportunity. Now. I'd like to thank my guest K. 810 00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:20,399 Speaker 1: S A. Lehman for telling his story. You can find 811 00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:23,520 Speaker 1: out more about his book Heavy at K. S A. 812 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:28,360 Speaker 1: Lehman dot com. That's Key I E S E l 813 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:32,520 Speaker 1: A Y m O N dot com. I'd also like 814 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,880 Speaker 1: to thank the Aspen Institute Arts Program and Aspen Words, 815 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,560 Speaker 1: where this interview was recorded. Family Secrets is an I 816 00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:44,160 Speaker 1: Heart Media production. Dylan Fagin is the supervising producer, Lowell 817 00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,480 Speaker 1: Bolante is the audio engineer, and Julie Douglas is the 818 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,880 Speaker 1: executive producer. If you have a family secret you'd like 819 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,120 Speaker 1: to share, you can get in touch with us at 820 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:57,200 Speaker 1: listener mail at Family Secrets podcast dot com, and you 821 00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 1: can also find us on Instagram at Danny Right, and 822 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:05,080 Speaker 1: Facebook at Family Secrets Pod and Twitter at fami Secrets Pod. 823 00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:10,319 Speaker 1: For more about my book Inheritance, visit Danny Shapiro dot com. 824 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:25,239 Speaker 1: For more podcasts. For my Heart Radio, visit the I 825 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:28,400 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to 826 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:29,280 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.