WEBVTT - Lean In Isn't Working. Now What? 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:03.000 It's only fitting that me a male lead off today's 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.680 episode about women in the workplace. This is an issue 0:00:05.720 --> 0:00:10.080 that has proved problematic for decades, with progress that has 0:00:10.119 --> 0:00:15.280 been both fleeting and fitful. How can women truly succeed? 0:00:15.720 --> 0:00:30.200 Is leaning in enough? This is game plan? Hey everybody, 0:00:30.200 --> 0:00:33.400 I'm Sam Grobart and I'm Rebecca Greenfield. Four years ago, 0:00:33.800 --> 0:00:36.240 the topic of conversation in this nation was a book 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:40.200 by Facebook CEO Cheryl Sandberg called Lean In, Yes, So Lean, 0:00:40.520 --> 0:00:43.120 And it was a huge sensation And the basic message 0:00:43.159 --> 0:00:47.080 of the book was that women need to understand all 0:00:47.080 --> 0:00:49.520 the forces working against them in the workplace and then 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:54.640 lean up against them. So you don't speak up in meetings, 0:00:54.640 --> 0:00:57.160 for example, women tend not to do that, but you 0:00:57.240 --> 0:00:58.720 need to do that because that's how you're going to 0:00:58.760 --> 0:01:01.400 get ahead. Or you don't want to ask for the raise, 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:03.319 but you need to ask for the raise because that's 0:01:03.320 --> 0:01:05.640 how you're going to get paid more or equal to 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:07.679 what the men are making. And that was the general 0:01:08.080 --> 0:01:10.560 theme of the book. And like many ideas in this 0:01:10.640 --> 0:01:12.880 nation and in this world, there was a usual cycle 0:01:12.920 --> 0:01:15.720 to this. There was an initial excitement and embrace of 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:19.639 the idea, and then Yeah, there was a pretty pretty 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:22.520 huge backlash. There were two main criticisms of lean In 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:26.840 the first one was that it put a lot of 0:01:26.920 --> 0:01:29.960 the responsibility on women to do all of the work. 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:32.800 It's like the you know you're fat because you don't 0:01:32.840 --> 0:01:35.000 work out enough now because the food that you eat 0:01:35.080 --> 0:01:41.880 is made terrible by big companies exactly different, um. And 0:01:42.319 --> 0:01:45.000 so that was one criticism. And then the other criticism 0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:47.680 was that Cheryl Sandberg was elitist, um, and that the 0:01:47.680 --> 0:01:51.080 book was elitist, and that when it talked about working women, 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:54.200 it was only talking about a specific type of working woman, 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:59.040 white educated, really educated. Um. One thing that you know, 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:03.320 Cheryl Enberg is also a white woman, and she was married, 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:06.120 and a lot of women in this country who are 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:10.000 working aren't. That that's correct, And she's quite wealthy. Yes, 0:02:10.680 --> 0:02:14.000 So that was where the two main criticisms. Still, it 0:02:14.120 --> 0:02:16.200 was a huge conversation that a lot of people found 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:19.240 refreshing and needed to hear. I think, yeah, I definitely 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:23.120 raised topics that needed to be discussed. Even if there 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:26.280 was disagreement over what the proper remedy was, it wouldn't 0:02:26.280 --> 0:02:28.320 be a big sensation. I don't think if people it 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:29.920 didn't have in a hot moment for a lot of 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:32.240 working women, and certainly a lot of people I knew 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:38.279 found the advice very refreshing. Since then, Chellete Sandberg herself 0:02:38.960 --> 0:02:43.399 has come out with some articles and statements walking back 0:02:43.440 --> 0:02:45.160 some of the things that she said in lean In. 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:47.440 So there's been a lot of research that's come out, 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:51.160 specifically as a result of the book, showing that lean 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:54.880 in can backfire for women in what kind of ways 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:56.720 does that happen? So we talked about this on the 0:02:56.760 --> 0:02:59.880 meetings episode that we did. But when women speak up 0:02:59.880 --> 0:03:04.399 in meetings, they are judged more harshly and negatively than men. 0:03:04.840 --> 0:03:09.960 Sure there, Yeah, exactly. Another piece of research was found 0:03:10.000 --> 0:03:12.119 that when women do ask for raises, they're a lot 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:14.600 less likely to get them. It seems like a case 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:18.480 of the system, which is the mail dominated. And when 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:20.160 we talk about this, I mean I say mail dominated 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:22.840 because the workplace has been mail dominated since the beginning 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:25.840 of time. So it's only very recently that we've begun 0:03:25.880 --> 0:03:27.840 to sort of poke at it and try to change it. 0:03:27.919 --> 0:03:32.680 But when the system is challenged, it just it rejects it. 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:34.520 It says no. I mean, so I can get away 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:37.360 with it because I am part of that system, but 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:41.200 you don't have that privilege as the system views it. Yeah, 0:03:41.240 --> 0:03:43.600 it's really frustrating to say like, Okay, I'm going to 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:45.320 play by your game. I'm going to play by all 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:47.840 the rules, and then only to be those aren't your rules. 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:51.000 Oh no, actually that's not those are my rules. And 0:03:51.080 --> 0:03:53.800 as an ambitious person who wants to succeed, you know, 0:03:53.840 --> 0:03:56.280 you're not trying to knock anybody else down. You just 0:03:56.400 --> 0:03:58.560 want to get paid this. You want to get that money. 0:03:58.800 --> 0:04:00.440 I want to get that money. I'm not trying to 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:03.360 keep anybody else from getting their money. But yes, and 0:04:03.400 --> 0:04:07.040 then on the elitism thing, it was really interesting. Cheryl 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:11.760 Sandberg lost her husband. He died suddenly, and she wrote 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:15.160 a Facebook post talking about how she didn't realize how 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:19.080 hard it was to lean in when you're a single mom. Interesting. Yeah, 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:25.040 so lean in isn't really working right. The idea was proposed, 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:28.080 it's been examined, it's not quite the solution perhaps we 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:32.400 were all looking for. Now we have another proposal from 0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:37.440 former Wall Street executive and women's finance advocate Sally Crawcheck, 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:49.240 who has a new book out called Own It. Sally, 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:50.839 thanks so much for joining us today. Let me jump 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:52.400 right in with a question, can you sort of help 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:56.560 plot the journey from lean in to own it? Well, 0:04:56.600 --> 0:04:59.000 first of all, i'd say len In did, and Cheryl 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:04.239 Sandberg you is her purchaed Facebook and the credibility and 0:05:04.520 --> 0:05:09.599 profile she'd built to start an amazing national conversation about 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:12.880 the advancement of women at work. What I would say 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:15.320 with own it is that we look at the next chapter, 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:18.080 which is hold on a second. We've had lots of conversation. 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:21.640 We've had some progress, but we really haven't had as 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:24.440 much progress as I think we might have expected. We 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:27.440 can talk about the election, but we're really but even 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:32.040 before the election, even before particularly with regards to business, 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:33.760 if we actually go to the industry that I grew 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:36.880 up in Wall Street financial services, would you believe that 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:41.440 gender diversity is less farther forward? That was I don't 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:44.680 know if that was grammatically correct, but has actually gone 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:48.719 backwards in the past decade. There were more women in 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:52.840 senior roles before the financial crisis than there are today. 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:56.360 Pretty unexpected. I think that is also because of all 0:05:56.400 --> 0:05:59.920 the national conversation about leaning in and just knowing person 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:03.479 only so many strong, successful women it's hard to believe that, 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:06.479 but the numbers that don't lie like that is the truth. 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:08.640 Like the workplace has not involved as much as we 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:10.880 wanted to. What do you attribute that that sort of 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:15.560 backwards momentum to. I'd say for that industry, it is 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:18.160 not unusual for an industry that goes through crisis to 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:20.960 go backwards in terms of gender diversity. And some could 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:25.120 say it's circling the wagons. What I observed was, Hey, 0:06:25.320 --> 0:06:31.640 we'd love to put Susie or Jose or Jamal or 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:34.480 anyone else who's different from the majority of us in 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:37.679 that role, but you know, we're going through a financial crisis, 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:41.560 and you know we can't take that risk. Is going 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:42.880 to have to take a break for a minute. You know, 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:45.320 it's just not as important this, of course, despite the 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:49.279 research that is clear, and I mean clear, crystal clear, 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:53.840 that diversity of all kinds, gender diversity in this case 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:57.440 leads to superior performance, leads to higher returns on equity, 0:06:57.839 --> 0:07:04.000 lower risk, greater innovation, greater client focus, greater employee engagement. 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:07.719 I mean, you name it. Having people of difference, whatever 0:07:07.839 --> 0:07:10.960 kind of difference in a room, leads to better decision 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:14.280 making and ultimately to your point, affects the bottom line 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:17.280 in a positive way. This isn't just diversity for diversity, 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:19.800 saying absolutely, and you know we are you know, we 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:22.400 like to believe this country is want of equal opportunity. 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:25.320 We can debate that as well, but it really is 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:27.560 in this case a business issue. And you tell me 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:30.000 you're a mail I am. Do you think the financial 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:33.360 crisis would have been worse if there were more women 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:36.559 on those trading floors? Worse if there's been more people 0:07:36.560 --> 0:07:38.880 of difference. In fact, there's research in the book that 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:41.760 says the homogeneity can lead to miss pricing and markets 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:44.960 because we trust each other, right, rather than you know what, 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:48.920 I'm gonna really think this through. Nobody's really tricking the 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:52.040 balloon there. Nobody's saying, wait a second, my experience is 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:56.000 something different than yours, and I'm going to bring together 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:57.560 so I don't know you that well, So I'm going 0:07:57.600 --> 0:07:59.880 to check those prices right as opposed to hey, come 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:02.120 and we both go to the same restricted golf club. 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:03.640 So part of the point I try to make of 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:06.679 the book is having been one of not very many 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:10.360 women on Wall Street. Really that's an extreme right. That 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:15.000 was a very male business very male oriented, and not 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:17.880 only do we not get the returns from diversity, but 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:20.920 we had a financial crisis, and those things I believe 0:08:21.000 --> 0:08:24.720 have some relationship. But industries that aren't in crisis also 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:28.120 aren't that accepting of women. Well, have not had as 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:31.920 much progress in closing the gender pay gap, which depending 0:08:31.960 --> 0:08:35.360 on which research study you look at, will take eighty 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:37.800 one years, a hundred eighteen years, a hundred eighty eight years, 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:41.080 whichever one it is, or getting more women into senior 0:08:41.160 --> 0:08:44.560 roles or getting more women onto boards. Yeah, it's not great. 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:47.920 I was just looking actually, in preparation for this segment, 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:52.719 an older newspiece that Pinterest actually at one point had 0:08:52.720 --> 0:08:57.600 made a goal to hire of its engineers as women, 0:08:57.679 --> 0:09:00.360 to hire women for thirty percent of their engineering again grammar, 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:04.600 they missed it. They came in at like twenty four, 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:08.040 and their solution was that they were going to reset 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:11.840 the goal to twenty to change your goal it. Yeah, 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:14.920 let's move the goal posts and we'll not do as 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:17.400 much work in the future. And so there's always this 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:20.880 sort of starting off with big expectations, lots of rhetoric, 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:23.760 and then kind of backtracking hard. It's hard. It is 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:26.160 look I'll tell you as as a manager I've been 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:30.160 a manager, it is so much easier to manage people 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:33.599 who are just like me, And it's so much easier 0:09:33.720 --> 0:09:37.040 to tell people to act in a certain way. And 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:40.360 in the case of American business, that certain way has 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:42.720 been both the advice women have gotten from so many 0:09:42.720 --> 0:09:46.680 advice books out there and the performance reviews I've gotten 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:51.400 over the years, is to be confident, to be strong, 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:56.080 to be assertive, to ask for the raise, to raise 0:09:56.160 --> 0:09:59.720 your hand for the promotion before you are ready. In fact, 0:09:59.800 --> 0:10:02.040 the much of the advice could be boiled down to 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:04.920 act like a man. Yeah. And so it's just easier 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:07.040 to manage people who are like you, and it's just 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:08.960 easier to tell people who are not like you to 0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:11.240 act like you. So to me, your book seems to 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:13.679 have kind of two messages. One of the messages to 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:17.920 the businesses that feminine qualities and women in the workplace 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:20.000 it's going to be good for your business. And we've 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:22.840 just talked about that. Well, it already is, according to 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:25.920 the research. And then I believe as business is changing 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:29.040 that it's going to become more so. I mean, back 0:10:29.040 --> 0:10:32.880 in the day when no one had any information right, 0:10:32.960 --> 0:10:35.400 it was. You know, when I ran Merrill Lynch, I 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:38.240 had the clients survey. No one else could afford to 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:41.640 do it. Today everyone's got the information. Information is cheap, 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:46.200 So all of a sudden, that command and control that 0:10:46.320 --> 0:10:51.119 Jack Welchian approach to business may not be as valuable 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:54.880 as the ability to see things holistically, which women can do. 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:57.480 So the second message that I took away from your 0:10:57.520 --> 0:11:00.840 book was that for women, working women that they don't 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:02.720 have to act like men, that they should act like 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:05.280 more like women because that is an asset. Can you 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:07.480 talk about that? This is what you know when you 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:11.400 actually sit back and look at how much power we 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:18.319 have as women today. We direct consumer spending. We control 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:21.960 five trillion dollars of investable assets we jointly control with 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:25.319 our spouses and partners an other six trillion. We're going 0:11:25.360 --> 0:11:29.280 to inherit the forty trillion dollars of wealth transfer over 0:11:29.320 --> 0:11:32.760 the next few decades. We are half the population, we 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:36.640 are more than half the workforce. The qualities we bring 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:40.880 to the workplace make them better. So why do I 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:44.280 have tack like a man? I'm sorry, I'm sorry, And 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:46.880 what I think is really exciting. That's happening now that 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:51.200 was very different from ten years ago, even five years ago. 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:56.680 Is this power I have I can use now? Before 0:11:56.720 --> 0:12:01.000 I was oh, look there's a Tackie Carl Jrs. Hamburger 0:12:01.040 --> 0:12:04.679 commercial with the woman with you know, I don't think 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:07.960 I'm gonna buy a Hamburger. Today, they're actually services where 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:12.080 you can go online and see how companies are impacting 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:14.160 the environment. You can see you can go to the 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:16.000 grocery store and see how the companies from which you 0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:19.680 buy are advancing women. We can invest in companies their 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:22.520 mutual funds now that in which you can invest in 0:12:22.559 --> 0:12:26.480 companies that advance women to a greater degree. But the biggie, 0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:28.920 and I think it's an important one, is that back 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:31.960 when I was younger and the company wasn't treating women well, 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:36.120 or me well, or people well, I could stay. I 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:38.840 could go without much information to another company, you know, 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:40.840 talk to a few of my friends. Have a glass 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:42.760 of wine. How do they do it over there? What's 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:46.240 their maternity policy? I don't know right, I don't know 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:48.880 what it is. That Okay, fine, I'll go or I 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:51.880 could go home. Today I can still do those things, 0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:54.680 but with much more information I can go to websites 0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:57.760 that will tell me everybody's maternity leaf policy. I can 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:01.760 go to websites that crowdsource company called Cultures. Or I 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:04.640 can start my own business because the price of starting 0:13:04.640 --> 0:13:07.400 your business is plummeting. Or I can put together a 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:11.000 nonconventional career path. I have so many more options today, 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:14.079 so I can use this power. So I really want 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:16.040 to get to the part about starting your own business. 0:13:16.040 --> 0:13:18.800 But before we get there, are there ways you suggest 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:21.600 women should work in the workplace, so you know, like 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:26.640 negotiating or asking for the promotion that will be better 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:28.599 than acting like a man. Well, I'll tell you. In 0:13:28.640 --> 0:13:30.800 the irony of so much of this, and in the 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:34.079 shame of so much of this, is that when we 0:13:34.160 --> 0:13:37.560 women do act like men, the research is clear that 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:42.000 there's a backlash that you know, she's she's too masculine 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:46.000 and I too aggressive. There's an anecdote in the book 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:48.320 when I was running Smith Barney and we were doing 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:51.720 the managing director promotions, and we promoted a gentleman because 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:54.400 he was aggressive, because he broke eggs. We need that, 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:57.240 we need someone to break eggs, And then the woman 0:13:57.280 --> 0:14:02.920 who was next broke eggs. Such amenity and aggressive. Oh 0:14:02.920 --> 0:14:06.720 she's aggressive, right, We you know we were collegial. We 0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:10.000 don't need that, and so we recommended she get a coach. 0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:13.079 And it was It wasn't me, I'm embarrassed to tell you, 0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:15.079 wasn't even ahead of my hr. But it was a 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:17.679 gentleman who a few minutes later said, wait, look at 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:20.400 what we just did. So what we talk about, what 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:23.080 I talk about in the book is a term I 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:27.000 really like, which is the courageous conversation. Each of us 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:30.840 can have a courageous conversation, some like Cheryl Sandburg, who 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:34.320 wrote lean in kind of a big courageous conversation. Others 0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:37.280 like in that room is a courageous conversation of do 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:41.520 we realize what we just did? Or hey, Joe, you 0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:44.800 interrupted Susie six different times in that meeting, but you 0:14:44.880 --> 0:14:50.560 never interrupted Jimmy. Right. So also in that performance review 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:54.080 or that when you're asking for the raise, recognizing and 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:56.440 saying before we start, I just this is going to 0:14:56.520 --> 0:14:58.880 sound a little dope, but we all know that women 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:02.400 who ask sometimes are viewed as aggressive. But I'm about 0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:05.120 to ask, And the research shows that by putting that 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:08.640 on the table and saying it, you pretty quickly negate it. 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:11.000 You've been talking about issues within a sort of more 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:13.960 conventional workplace. But as you've alluded to, as Becca you 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:16.960 were referring to earlier, you also talk about starting your 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:21.520 own business, going independently. What are some of the strategies 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:26.400 that women can use that may be different than what 0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:29.200 men might do? Similar, how do you see a woman 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:33.960 who is looking to be independent of a corporation proceeding? So, 0:15:34.040 --> 0:15:37.600 first of all, let's acknowledge the less than positive, which 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:42.240 is adventure capitalist Today do not give women the same 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:45.680 amount of funding or resources that they give men. And 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:50.160 depending on which year and which study, women run businesses 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:53.000 get three percent of venture capital funding or six percent 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:57.120 or eight percent or some ridiculously small number. The good 0:15:57.160 --> 0:16:02.320 news is that as the price of starting businesses has plummeted, 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:07.280 the price of technology has plummeted, the price of renting 0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:09.400 office space has gone from you have to have a 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:12.520 long term lease to who we works, business travel, you 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:16.280 can do a video conference, full time employees, you can 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:19.800 hire some of those freelancers, and so you really able 0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:23.960 are able today to start businesses, some businesses with a 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:26.920 smaller amount of capital or a small amount of capital, 0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:28.880 and so what we're seeing, which is terrific, is the 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:34.280 infrastructure around starting businesses and particularly women owned businesses, is blossoming, 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:38.600 and women are able to are more successful in things 0:16:38.600 --> 0:16:42.000 like crowdfunding than than mentor and so there are other 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:44.520 means of getting capital, but some of it is the 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:48.280 old fashioned bootstrapping. Now, what I've done with l Vest, 0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:51.240 which is I think a really exciting business is a 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:56.080 digital investment platform for women, is I saw what I 0:16:56.120 --> 0:16:59.720 think is a substantial market opportunity. It's probably no coincidence 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:03.640 that Wall streeting the investing industry are mostly male and 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:06.880 that women don't invest. Those potential customers and clients don't 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:09.440 invest to the same degree that men do. And so 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:12.719 what we did was saw the opportunity, did tons of 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:16.760 research with women about why they don't invest. Essentially, it was, hey, 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:18.159 they tell them me to act like a man at work. 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:20.040 They tell them me to invest like a man over 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:23.000 here with my money, and spending the time with them 0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:25.440 to determine what it is they're looking for, not trying 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:28.560 to change the women, but really trying to change the 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:32.119 investing offering. And so you know, as I talked to 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:35.640 female entrepreneur apter, female entrepreneur, apter female entrepreneur, and there's 0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:38.240 so many more of them. Now. What they're saying is, 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:43.000 perhaps ironically, perhaps happily, the fact that business is so 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:46.000 male means that they're missing some of these female markets, 0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:48.640 whether it's a rent the runway or a dry bar 0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:52.399 or the real real you know, business after business are 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:55.359 seeing opportunities that are available that the guys are just 0:17:55.359 --> 0:17:58.480 looking right past. Do you think that the ultimate solution 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:01.680 for women to find only succeed. I mean, you climbed 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:05.239 so far within the field that you were in on 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:09.160 Wall Street, only to be eventually knocked down. I'm really fine, 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:12.119 I'm starting to my own thing. Is that is that 0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:14.720 kind of the way forward for women? I think it 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:18.240 is a way forward because here here's what I think. 0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:22.640 I think that if you were a company that historically 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:25.920 did not treat women well and there was very little 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:30.879 penalty for it, and that today again we can as 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:33.080 women see that our company is not treating us well, 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:35.119 see that we're not getting the promotion, that our friends 0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:37.200 are not getting the promotion, that that dope is getting 0:18:37.240 --> 0:18:41.040 the promotion, and we can start our own businesses. To 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:45.000 a greater degree, we can go to other companies with 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:48.160 more information. To a greater degree, we can go on 0:18:48.200 --> 0:18:51.560 social and share this with our friends. To a greater degree. 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:55.119 We can not buy from those companies, and we cannot 0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:57.880 invest in those companies. So you can see not tomorrow, 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:00.119 not the next day, not the third day, but you 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:02.679 can see where companies who are going to get it, 0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:05.920 and there are some who are will be an employer 0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:09.720 of choice. Women will buy increasingly from them, women will 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:12.800 invest increasingly in them. And those that don't, well, all 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:15.200 of a sudden, another quarter just wasn't quite as good. 0:19:15.240 --> 0:19:17.920 They miss by penny, and the next quarter they missed, 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:19.919 buy a couple of pennies, and they missed by you know, 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:23.240 a few more, and that they will get hollowed out 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:25.680 and won't see some of these big opportunities from these 0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:30.119 massive markets. Another thing that you really try to hammer 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:33.239 home in your book is the importance of women just 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:38.159 having their own money. And you say money has power. 0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:41.200 Can you explain why you find that so important? Can 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:45.240 I stand up and jump and scream and such money 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:48.320 is power. We live in a capitalist society. I can't 0:19:48.359 --> 0:19:52.280 say it enough. Um, Then I will further say that 0:19:52.359 --> 0:19:55.159 women will not be fully equal with men until we 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:58.560 are financially equal with men, that we will not have 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:02.040 the full range of choice is in our lives until 0:20:02.160 --> 0:20:04.560 we have the same amount of money as they do. 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:07.760 I mean, think about it. I call investing because there's 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:11.680 a gender investing gap in this country that cost some 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:13.879 women as much as the gender pay gap, but costs 0:20:13.960 --> 0:20:16.520 some women hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:19.680 over the course of their lives. Do you feel better? 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:22.120 Are you more able to start the business you're dreaming 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:24.000 about if you have more money or less? Are you 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:27.840 able to leave the relationship with the and our partner 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:29.840 who you're not so crazy about anymore? If you have 0:20:29.880 --> 0:20:32.240 more money or less, do you even feel better about 0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:35.480 walking into your boss's office to ask for the promotion, 0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:39.760 the raise, the overseas assignment to move you to a 0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:41.679 new department if you have more money or less. The 0:20:41.720 --> 0:20:46.360 answer for all of this is more and we've identified 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:48.840 over at l US. We actually have an e book 0:20:49.160 --> 0:20:51.160 that we put out called Mind the Gap. We've identified 0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:53.960 six or seven money gaps. The gender investing gap I 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:55.880 talked about in the book. There's a gender pay gap, 0:20:55.920 --> 0:20:59.120 there's a gender work achievement gap, there's a gender debt gap, 0:20:59.240 --> 0:21:02.160 takes us longer pay off our debt, gender expense gap, 0:21:02.240 --> 0:21:05.560 gender funding gap. They're all of these and these can 0:21:05.640 --> 0:21:09.560 cost women the group of them millions of dollars, and 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:13.679 it changes the texture and the complexion of our lives 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:16.719 in the context of a of a domestic partnership of marriage. 0:21:16.760 --> 0:21:18.760 What have you? I get the feeling you might be 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:23.280 more of a separate checking account fan ab so loutly 0:21:23.280 --> 0:21:27.520 when not necessarily separate checking account. I'm all for combining 0:21:27.560 --> 0:21:32.280 the expenses and paying for the expenses on based on 0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:35.600 the ratio of your earnings, so if one earns more, 0:21:35.640 --> 0:21:37.960 they pay more for the expenses and the other. But 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:41.399 I'm a big fan of keeping investment separate. Behalf of 0:21:41.600 --> 0:21:45.480 or just under half of marriages in divorce, I went 0:21:45.520 --> 0:21:47.280 through one. I thought we were going to be married 0:21:47.600 --> 0:21:50.400 until the end of time. He and my friend did 0:21:50.440 --> 0:21:56.600 not have that same point of view. And you know, 0:21:56.720 --> 0:21:59.159 I honestly never imagine it could happen to me. But 0:21:59.280 --> 0:22:01.200 when it does, trying to figure out where the money 0:22:01.280 --> 0:22:04.000 is is a poor time to do it. In addition, 0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:07.800 we women live, depending on the piece of research, five six, 0:22:07.880 --> 0:22:10.359 eight years longer than men. I can't tell you how 0:22:10.400 --> 0:22:14.080 many of my friends I've seen trying to figure out 0:22:14.119 --> 0:22:17.480