1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:07,880 Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 2: I wrote the book in the way of real time, 4 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 2: where it was me reacting to what was going on 5 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 2: in the investigation and the information as it was coming out, 6 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 2: me investigating the investigation to see what it is that 7 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 2: they actually knew what they didn't know in this case, 8 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 2: about who had done it, or even the crimes themselves. 9 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:44,279 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 10 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 11 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: true crime podcast Tenfold More Wicked and the co host 12 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right. I've traveled 13 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,639 Speaker 1: around the world interviewing people for the show, and they 14 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: are all excellent writers. They've had so many great true 15 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 1: crime stories, and now we want to tell you those 16 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: stories with details that have never been published. Tenfold War 17 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:11,399 Speaker 1: Wicked Presents Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make, 18 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: good and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories 19 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:20,039 Speaker 1: behind the stories. By now most of you know the 20 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: story of the Delphi murders. Actually, this wasn't a case 21 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: I had kept up with so that's why this episode 22 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 1: is so interesting for me. My guest is Nick Edwards. 23 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:33,680 Speaker 1: He's the host of the True Crime Garage podcast and 24 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 1: he's also an author. Nick wrote a book about the 25 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: murders of Libby and Abby in twenty seventeen, and it's 26 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 1: called The Delphi Murders The Quest to Find the Man 27 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 1: on the Bridge. Nick told me a lot of things 28 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: about the case that I didn't know, So I guess 29 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: let's start with the victims, because that's always the most 30 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: important thing to me. And I think probably the you too, 31 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: you called her Libby, is that we should go with Liberty. 32 00:01:58,960 --> 00:01:59,919 Speaker 1: Should we go with Libby? 33 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, Liberty German and Abigail Williams are two young girl victims, 34 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 2: just teenagers, very typical Middle America teenagers, best friends. I 35 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 2: cannot express that enough. They were so close that they 36 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 2: were the type that if you saw one without the 37 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 2: other and you knew them, your first question is where 38 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 2: is Libby or where is Abby? You just expect to 39 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 2: see them side by side all of the time. And yeah, 40 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:27,959 Speaker 2: that's what they're best known as is Libby and Abbey. 41 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 2: Abbey and Libby. So the way that this story all 42 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:33,959 Speaker 2: starts for those that don't know anything about this case. 43 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 2: You have two girls, young teenage girls, the best of friends. 44 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 2: They're dropped off early in the afternoon on an unseasonably 45 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 2: warm day in February. Okay, so they go to this 46 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:48,799 Speaker 2: trail system, beautiful area. Best way to describe it would be, 47 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 2: this is like a park, you know, like a state park. 48 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 2: So there's a trail system. And on that trail system 49 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 2: there's this old abandoned railroad bridge called the moanin high Bridge. 50 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 2: You could show a picture of this bridge to one 51 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 2: hundred people and you're going to get a hundred different 52 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,239 Speaker 2: thoughts on this bridge. Some may say, Oh, it's a creepy, old, 53 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 2: rickety old bridge. Others would say that looks like something 54 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 2: out of a Bob Ross painting. So they're getting dropped 55 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 2: off with the purpose of walking across this bridge. Now, 56 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 2: I have a bit of trouble with heights, so as 57 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 2: brave and tough as I think I am, i'd probably 58 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 2: make about five or six steps out onto that bridge 59 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 2: and turn right around and get back on a solid ground. 60 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 2: But this is an old abandoned railroad bridge, and it's 61 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 2: sort of a rite of passage in this area, right 62 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 2: like the teenagers, the young folks. They go out there 63 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 2: and it's kind of you go across it at some 64 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 2: point when you're a young teenager and it's something you 65 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 2: kind of brag about to your friends after you've done it. 66 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: It's a little dangerous, right, Well yeah, I mean, can 67 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: you fall off this bridge? 68 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're not rails, so you could fall off the side. 69 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 2: I mean, this is just as teenager as it comes. Right. 70 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 2: The two girls, Libby had already gone across some bridge 71 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 2: on at least one prior occasion, and so Abby was 72 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 2: going to walk across the bridge and Libby was going 73 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 2: to show her how. She was going to teach her friend. 74 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 2: Here's something I've done. Now it's your turn. I'm going 75 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 2: to experience this with you. I'll bring my cell phone 76 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 2: and we can take some pictures to capture the moment. 77 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 2: And unfortunately, there's evil out there on the trails that 78 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 2: day while the girls are out there, and so the 79 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,799 Speaker 2: girls are supposed to be picked up sometime. It wasn't 80 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 2: hard and fast time on what time to be picked up. 81 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 2: It was going to be like three three thirty. So 82 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 2: Libby's father, Derek was going to be in the area. 83 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 2: He had finished up some work task earlier that day, 84 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 2: and the idea was Kelsey, the sister, would drop them 85 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 2: off at the trailhead. They could run around do whatever 86 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 2: they're going to do again. The purpose of the trip 87 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 2: was to go across the Moaning High Bridge, take a 88 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 2: couple of pictures, and then Derek would pick them up 89 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 2: sometime between three and three thirty when he happens to 90 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 2: be in the area. He gets there, he's texting his daughter. 91 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,160 Speaker 2: He doesn't hear, there's no reply, and so at some 92 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 2: point there becomes concern, and you have Libby's extended family 93 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 2: out there searching high and low for the kids. On 94 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 2: the trails. They're going across the bridge, they're looking all 95 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 2: over for the two of them. Now, any parent will 96 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:19,159 Speaker 2: tell you it is not terribly uncommon for teenagers to 97 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 2: be where they are not supposed to be, right, I'm 98 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 2: sure that that was probably their thoughts that afternoon. You 99 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 2: know what, I'm probably a little upset with these kids. 100 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 2: They were supposed to be here at three three thirty, 101 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 2: Sure enough, they're not here. These were good kids, so 102 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:39,599 Speaker 2: maybe that was a leap that was a little difficult 103 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:44,039 Speaker 2: for them to make. But you can see Mike Patty 104 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:48,840 Speaker 2: and Abby's mother on the eleven o'clock news out there 105 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 2: in West Indiana, and neither of them looked like panicked. 106 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 2: You can tell they're concerned. It's dark now and it's 107 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 2: getting cold out. It's February. It was warm that day, 108 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 2: but it's going to be a cold night. You can 109 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 2: tell their concern, you can hear it in their words 110 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 2: and their voices and then see it on their faces. 111 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 2: But you can also tell they're not panicked yet. You know, again, 112 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:13,359 Speaker 2: they're teenagers. They did have a fairly organized search for 113 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 2: the girls that evening and night, but at some point 114 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 2: they had to call off the search. This is rough terrain. 115 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 2: You just talked about people falling off of the moan 116 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 2: in high Bridge. That's certain of possibility. So at some 117 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 2: point they call off the search. The sheriff received a 118 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 2: lot of criticism. 119 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 1: For that, but they couldn't do cell phone no cell 120 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:31,599 Speaker 1: phone activity. Could they even trace that at that point. 121 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 2: They had pinged her phone a couple of times, but 122 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 2: this is a very rural area, and what was happening, 123 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 2: from my understanding, is that the pings actually suggested that 124 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 2: she was in town and moving around. But from the 125 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 2: way it's been explained to me multiple times, is that 126 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 2: in that area at that time, if you were to 127 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 2: walk from one side of your house to the other 128 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 2: side of the house, your phone may ping off of 129 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,679 Speaker 2: three different towers. It's just the lay of the land. 130 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: So that wasn't useful and actually bad right because maybe 131 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 1: they weren't panicked enough to look as you're suggesting, look 132 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: in the places where they were last seen. Instead, they 133 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: thought maybe they'd be in town. 134 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 2: Well. And one thing that hurt badly too is her 135 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 2: grandparents attempted to do the find my Phone feature. It 136 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 2: had not been loaded, so she had did a factory reset. 137 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 2: Liby had done a factory reset on her cell phone, 138 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 2: I think just a couple of weeks prior. And some 139 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 2: of those apps you have to reload them to get 140 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 2: them up and running, and she had never reloaded that app. 141 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 1: So the sheriff calls off the search for the night. 142 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 1: It's getting cold. They're hoping that they just sort of 143 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: decided to be rebellious for once and go to a 144 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: friend's house secretly, or go somewhere and they're warm and safe, 145 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 1: and they'll pop up in the morning and say sorry, 146 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: please forgive us we're grounded for a week, and that's it. 147 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 2: And that's not what happened, right, And I think you know, 148 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 2: some people had expressed that they thought maybe worst case scenario, 149 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 2: one of them had twisted or broken an ankle and 150 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 2: the other one wouldn't leave them. But the difficult thing 151 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 2: is you are out there searching, You are out there 152 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 2: yelling and calling their names. They would have been vocal 153 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 2: and had the ability to yell back. That didn't happen. 154 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 2: I mean, we got firefighters, We had a decent amount 155 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 2: of people out there that evening. About six am. The 156 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 2: following day, a very organized search effort is put together 157 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 2: by the Sheriff's department in firefighters, and it's about twelve 158 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 2: to twelve fifteen that day that they find the girls 159 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 2: having been murdered out in the woods. 160 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:36,119 Speaker 1: Unfortunately, how far were they from the bridge. 161 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 2: They were about a little more than a quarter of 162 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 2: a mile from the end of the bridge. So from 163 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 2: my understanding, what you do is you walk across that bridge, 164 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 2: you have a very quick celebration, and then there's really 165 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 2: nothing but private property on the other side of that 166 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 2: moan in High Bridge. So the teenagers just turn around 167 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 2: and go back there's really not a whole lot to 168 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 2: do on that other side. That's where they were intercepted 169 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 2: by this evil individual who then corroused them and essentially 170 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:10,679 Speaker 2: abducts them and moves them further into the woods, and 171 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 2: then they were killed a brief time after he encountered 172 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 2: them on the bridge. 173 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: You know, in a case like this, I talked to 174 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: Paul Holes, you know, he's my co host on Buried Bones. 175 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: I talked to Paul a lot about the citizen sleuth 176 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: and then sort of the anger focused at investigators. It 177 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 1: feels like, almost immediately in a case like this, you 178 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: don't know what you're doing, You're screwing everything up, you're 179 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: hiding information and all of this. And Paul just said 180 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:38,319 Speaker 1: with the Golden State killer case, it was terrible. I mean, 181 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 1: he really had to stop communicating with some people, and 182 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 1: none of the information that he was given was particularly helpful. 183 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: Do you think that this was like an immediate knee 184 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:52,560 Speaker 1: jerk response from people who were following this case early on, 185 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: because it seems like the first strike against investigators is 186 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: they didn't continue the search. So was it sort of 187 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: downhill in the eyes of a citizen sleuth at this point? 188 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, And the thing is, I think in this situation, 189 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 2: it was a case that was so captivating that it 190 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 2: drew in a lot of people that didn't even have 191 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 2: any experience as a citizen sleuth. You know, they had 192 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 2: maybe never followed a case before, and so look, we 193 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 2: can point the finger and that's unfortunately that's going to happen, 194 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 2: so especially in this type of case. So what you 195 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 2: have here is and I say this, I've said it 196 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 2: a hundred times on true crime garage, and I'm sure 197 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 2: that I'll say it one hundred more. When you go 198 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 2: to a community, especially a smaller town like Delphi, Indiana, 199 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 2: and you kill a child, that's not a crime against 200 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 2: that kid, just that kid, or against their family, or 201 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 2: against where that kid went to school. That is a 202 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:47,680 Speaker 2: crime against the entire community. That's how it is. And 203 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 2: this community banded together immediately. Now what ended up happening 204 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 2: is people want their pound of flesh when something like 205 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 2: this happens. That's just human nature. People want to very 206 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 2: quickly identify why and who is responsible, where's the bad guy, 207 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:09,079 Speaker 2: and any speed bump or any slower route in defining 208 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 2: that individual. It upsets the masses. In this case, knee 209 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 2: jerk reaction. Yes, one hundred thousand percent. And the thing was, 210 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 2: that's part of the reason why I wrote the book, 211 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 2: was that there were so many things, so much absurd, 212 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 2: crazy stuff being said online and on social media that 213 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 2: I'm here tearing my hair out, going let's be reasonable people, 214 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 2: Let's come back down to earth and deal with this 215 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 2: thing that's called There's this wonderful thing called logic. Let's 216 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 2: try to apply it here in this case. And so 217 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 2: where you have people get ready to get out the 218 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 2: torches and pitchforks going, well, they called off the search. 219 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 2: Clearly shows they don't know what they're doing. That's common 220 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 2: anytime there's somebody that's missing, it gets dark, it gets cold, 221 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 2: they call off the search. That's just what happens. You 222 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 2: don't Yes, you were to save one or two, but 223 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 2: you're not going to risk one or two more in 224 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 2: the process. If people stayed out there that night and 225 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 2: still searched against you know, it's not like the sheriff 226 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 2: is saying go home or you will be arrested. No, 227 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 2: the sheriff is saying, we are done here for the night. 228 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 2: We will reconvene at daybreak tomorrow six am. They were 229 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 2: out there organized and ready to rock by six am. Yes, 230 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 2: so the people reacting the way they did. You know, 231 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 2: we end up getting two different composite sketches of the 232 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 2: of the suspect throughout the course of this investigation. People 233 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,079 Speaker 2: were all up in arms about that. I've seen that 234 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 2: in multiple cases. It's not uncommon to have more than 235 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 2: one composite sketch, especially if an investigation last years. A 236 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 2: lot of the things that people were upset with are 237 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 2: things that we've seen in a bunch of other cases. 238 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 2: What was different here, though, was the finger pointing, the 239 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 2: calling out a specific person online or on social media 240 00:12:57,840 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 2: that had nothing to do with the crime at all. 241 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 2: I mean again, one major reason why I wrote the 242 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 2: book was to separate not just fact from fiction, to 243 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 2: separate fact from all the complete craziness out there. People 244 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 2: openly saying that the mayor was the killer. People openly 245 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 2: saying that the Superintendent of Indiana State Police, Doug Carter, 246 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 2: who was the champion of justice in this case, that 247 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 2: he was the killer. People saying that tob Leslbie, the sheriff, 248 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:28,679 Speaker 2: was the killer. People saying that Mike Patty, the grandfather 249 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 2: of one of the girls, was the killer. So it 250 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:34,439 Speaker 2: was through that aggravating aspect of the case that just 251 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 2: kept nudging me and nudging me and nudging me to 252 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 2: keep covering it on true crime garage, speak for the 253 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 2: truth and put pen to paper, write the book The 254 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 2: Delphi murders. 255 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: Well, let's go back to the day that the two 256 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 1: girls were discovered. If we could just sort of summarize 257 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: the discovery, who discovered them, what that whole scene was like, 258 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: and then how do you get into an investigation after this? 259 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: So what's the scene like when they find them? 260 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 2: Well, they released very little information, and still to this day, 261 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 2: even after the arrests, have released very little information. And 262 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:07,680 Speaker 2: some of those details don't help to lead us to 263 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 2: the suspect anyway, so they're not always necessary to discuss. 264 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:15,199 Speaker 2: But on that day, yeah, the two girls were found 265 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 2: by one of the search parties, and this was around noon, 266 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 2: about twelve to fifteen that afternoon. They're discovered. Immediately based 267 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 2: off of the discovery, police know we're dealing with foul play. 268 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 2: They didn't go into details, but obvious signs all of 269 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 2: these years later. In fact, it wasn't until June of 270 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 2: twenty twenty three that we learned that they were killed 271 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 2: with a sharp instrument or sharp weapon. That's obviously going 272 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 2: to tell the investigators that we're talking about foul play immediately. 273 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 2: They did make the announcement at some point or the 274 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 2: statement months after they were found that they believed everything 275 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 2: was done and over with by five pm. And again 276 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 2: they're releasing so little information that That's what a lot 277 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 2: of them book is about is me. I've through true 278 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 2: crime garage and through my charity work that I've done, 279 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 2: I've reviewed and again I'm not law enforcement, I'm not 280 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 2: retired law enforcement, but I've reviewed hundreds of cases, and 281 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 2: there is some experience that comes with that, and so 282 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 2: I could look at their words and look at their 283 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 2: statements and deduce for myself what it is that they 284 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 2: knew about the killer, what it is that they knew 285 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 2: from the evidence that they're seeing about what went down 286 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 2: that day, and also how they were going to pursue 287 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 2: finding and identifying the killer. So that's what a lot 288 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 2: of the book is me going through their information through 289 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 2: their press conferences and reading between the lines and sharing 290 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 2: that with the reader and so on that day, what 291 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 2: we learned very quickly in this investigation, that is very 292 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 2: different from other murder investigations is that Libby God bless her, 293 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 2: she was so brave that she captured the killer's image 294 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 2: and voice on herself phone, and that is partly what 295 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 2: led to people being more upset about this case. They're going, 296 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 2: you got the killer's picture, you got the killer on video, 297 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 2: you got the killer talking recorded talking to the girls, 298 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 2: and we can't find this guy. Either there's a cover 299 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 2: up or you guys don't know what you're doing. And 300 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 2: here's the thing. At the end of the day, it 301 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 2: wasn't a great picture. It wasn't a great video. You 302 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 2: could use that video or that picture to go, Okay, 303 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 2: well this person and this guy and that guy, they 304 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 2: are not the guy. But it's it was not a 305 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 2: good enough picture that it's going that you could look 306 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 2: at another person to go, yep, that's our guy. No, 307 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 2: the video pretty much told us we're looking for a 308 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 2: very average looking white. 309 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: Male, yeah, in Indiana. 310 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 2: In Indiana exactly, and so we could we could hear 311 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 2: his voice. And Libby was so brave to capture all 312 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 2: of that information there that day, risking putting herself at 313 00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 2: further harm because keep in mind, when he approaches them, 314 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 2: they don't know what they're in for. 315 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,400 Speaker 1: Well, that's my question. Why is she recording? What is 316 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 1: on the recording? And at what stage does she feel 317 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:11,160 Speaker 1: threatened and that's why she's recording him? 318 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 2: Or do we not know? 319 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: Why was she recording? And then she heard a voice 320 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: and swung around and just started recording this guy. 321 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 2: So that's very interesting. We can't say with any certainty 322 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 2: why she decided to record. I think a couple things 323 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 2: probably took place. Either one, they had seen him or 324 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 2: encountered him prior and then see him again later and 325 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 2: it kind of spooked them a little bit and thought, well, 326 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 2: here's this weird guy. Maybe I should just record him 327 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:41,640 Speaker 2: for a bit. Let's keep in mind too, she had 328 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 2: just taken a photograph that was sent out on Snapchat 329 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 2: of Abby walking across the bridge, so she may have 330 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:53,199 Speaker 2: had her phone in hand when she first notices him 331 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,919 Speaker 2: on the bridge. So she sends that out on Snapchat. 332 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 2: And this is at like two thirteen pm. We know 333 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:05,440 Speaker 2: everything's fine at two thirteen pm. After that this man 334 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 2: they see him walking across the bridge, and earlier I 335 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 2: had talked about the state of the bridge. I believe 336 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 2: played a factor in us having difficulty identifying him. Well, 337 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 2: that's because he's looking down as she's filming him while 338 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 2: he's on the bridge. But he's looking down to make 339 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 2: sure he doesn't lose his footing, make a wrong step, 340 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 2: and I mean he could fall off the bridge himself. 341 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 2: So I'm guessing here, because she filmed him for her phone, 342 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 2: is capturing forty three seconds of video and or audio. 343 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 2: We the public, we only get to hear or see 344 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 2: a very small clip of that video. So later we 345 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 2: hear guys down the hill that's the killer's voice. We 346 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 2: also see a very brief clip of him taking like 347 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,160 Speaker 2: one and a half steps on the mon And High 348 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 2: Bridge and he's looking again. He's looking down, so she 349 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 2: could have they could have encountered him prior on the 350 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 2: trails and thought, oh this is weird, here's this guy again, 351 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 2: and maybe just filmed it for that purpose. We do 352 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:13,639 Speaker 2: later learn that they're unaware of a major threat until 353 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:17,159 Speaker 2: after she was already filming. What I think happened is 354 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 2: she probably already had her phone out because she had 355 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 2: just documented Abby going across the bridge, and it was 356 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 2: kind of an instinct and natural instinct to just hit 357 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 2: the button again and start filming this guy. Now, we 358 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 2: do know Libby was being raised by her grandparents, Mike 359 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:36,919 Speaker 2: and Becky Patty, and what they have said to the 360 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:41,439 Speaker 2: media is that their opinion is that for whatever reason, 361 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,919 Speaker 2: this guy they probably just thought was weird for whatever reason, 362 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 2: and just was going to take a picture or film 363 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 2: him for a few seconds and then show it later 364 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 2: to Grandma and Grandpa, like, look at this weird guy 365 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 2: we saw at the park today, you know, just kind 366 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 2: of very innocent. But that forty three seconds, it was 367 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 2: never released in its entirety to the public, and on 368 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:07,160 Speaker 2: a portion of that we can only speculate what else 369 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 2: is on that video. But at one point one of 370 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 2: the girls does say to the other gun, just like gun. 371 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:19,679 Speaker 2: And so at some point he is showing them that 372 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 2: he's going to be taking control of them in the situation, 373 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:26,879 Speaker 2: and they are aware of it, and one voices that 374 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 2: to the other one. Now again they were already recording 375 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 2: at this time. At some point I believe that she 376 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 2: concealed her phone either just kind of held it down 377 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 2: to her side or put it in a pocket, because 378 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 2: that's where I think the audio of the killer comes from, 379 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 2: because he's much closer when he says, guys down the hill. 380 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 2: It sounds like he's standing right next to them. She 381 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 2: must have rushed and put that phone away real quickly. 382 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:55,679 Speaker 2: Whether she intended to have it keep running or not, 383 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 2: we can't say. But I've had people ask me, does 384 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 2: that video so? Did that video hurt or help the investigation? 385 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 2: And the best answer I can give is we need 386 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 2: to give credit where credit is due. This is something 387 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 2: very brave that this little girl did. Yeah, this was 388 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,640 Speaker 2: a choice that she made, and she did this, and 389 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 2: it took five and a half years to make an arrest. 390 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 2: In this case, I'm a firm believer. If you ask 391 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 2: me if this video helped or hurt the investigation, it 392 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 2: took five and a half years with the video to 393 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 2: make an arrest. How many years do you think it 394 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 2: would have been without the video? 395 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 1: Why would it have hurt because it made it so 396 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: much more mysterious that you have all of these people 397 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:51,119 Speaker 1: speculating and blowing it up even bigger, or well, what's 398 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 1: the reason why it would be negative in the case. 399 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 2: The negative is that the investigation gets inundated with tips. 400 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 2: And of course only you know or a very small 401 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 2: few are responsible for what happened. That day. So we're 402 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 2: talking just months into the investigation, and they have to 403 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 2: turn over the tip line to the FBI because the 404 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 2: state police cannot handle the volume of calls and tips 405 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 2: that they're receiving. So at one point, I want to say, 406 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 2: this was like six or eight months into the investigation, 407 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 2: they had said they had received over forty seven thousand tips. Wow, 408 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 2: And so I can only imagine how many that they 409 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 2: ultimately received over the course of five five and a 410 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 2: half years before they arrested anybody. I guess, you know, 411 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 2: that would be the only way that you go, Well, 412 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,920 Speaker 2: maybe it hurt the investigation. I think, if anything, has 413 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 2: slowed it down because now you have all these people 414 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 2: that need to be looked at because they you get tips, 415 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 2: and some of these people you're getting multiple tips on 416 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:53,959 Speaker 2: did the police make any mistakes? Sure? And these things. 417 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 2: A lot of the movements and a lot of the 418 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 2: actions done by law enforcement in this case, we're probably 419 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 2: heavily debated behind the scenes on okay, do we do 420 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 2: this or do we not do this? And one thing 421 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 2: that I don't like, but we've seen it dozens and 422 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 2: dozens of times unfortunately, is right away, of course, media 423 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:21,159 Speaker 2: is peppering the officials with questions, and they're attempting to 424 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 2: do some kind of information release the day after the 425 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 2: girls were found, and unfortunately these officers weren't given much 426 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 2: information at all. But the question that I always hate 427 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 2: because I hate the answer is, oh, you said this 428 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 2: is foul play. So is there a threat to the community. 429 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 2: And you know, police, they always want to try to 430 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 2: calm the masses, right, you don't want to send everybody 431 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 2: into panic mode. And they said, no, we don't believe 432 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 2: that there's any direct threat to the community. Okay, I 433 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,919 Speaker 2: get what you're trying to do, guys, but we have 434 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,639 Speaker 2: somebody out there that is killing children. There is a 435 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:55,879 Speaker 2: threat to the community. 436 00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, tell me what investigators have to work with once 437 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 1: they find the girls' bodies the next day, what are 438 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 1: the physical clues I'm assuming they're taking swabs, right, they're 439 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: taking for sexual assault? And is the cell phone? Is 440 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:12,159 Speaker 1: Libby's cell phone found quickly? 441 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, so they recover the cell phone. They are aware, 442 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,439 Speaker 2: obviously of the video and the audio before the public is. 443 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 2: They held onto that information for a little bit. They 444 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 2: were originally trying to get the guy seen in the 445 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 2: video to come forward. They were taking the approach of 446 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,919 Speaker 2: this guy. We believe he's a witness or may have 447 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 2: seen something out on the trails that day. He's just 448 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,439 Speaker 2: a guy that we want to talk to. And then 449 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 2: after about a week, you know, they come out and say, no, 450 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 2: this is our suspect. We believe that this is the 451 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,640 Speaker 2: person that's responsible for these two murders. Now you ask, 452 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 2: what do they have to work with, Well, we later 453 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 2: learn what they had to work with, but at the 454 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,920 Speaker 2: time they weren't saying anything. It was over six years 455 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 2: after the murders that we even learned how the girls 456 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 2: were killed. So they were trying to keep as much 457 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,360 Speaker 2: close to the vest as they could, hoping that when 458 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,160 Speaker 2: they did speak to the right person that they would 459 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 2: start going down roads with different information that have not 460 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 2: been released yet and the investigators would know we're talking 461 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 2: to the right guy. He knows too much about this 462 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,880 Speaker 2: case or the crimes that he has to be the guy. 463 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 2: So early on they executed a search warrant on one 464 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 2: of the neighbors. The girls were actually found on private property. 465 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 2: They were walked from the edge of that bridge the 466 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 2: end of the bridge over on the private property where 467 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 2: they were assaulted and killed, and they executed a search 468 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 2: warrant for the owner of that property. His name was 469 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 2: Ron Logan. I do think that some of the investigators 470 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,119 Speaker 2: behind the scenes thought that he was probably responsible, but 471 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 2: we would later learn that no, he wasn't. And this 472 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,160 Speaker 2: was the case too, that they never really cleared anybody, right, 473 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 2: They would look at somebody, look at him pretty deep, 474 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 2: and take a good look at them, and the public 475 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 2: would become aware of that, but they never officially publicly 476 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 2: cleared anybody that they had looked at. They weren't closing 477 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 2: any doors in this case. And it was and remains 478 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 2: the biggest case in Indiana since the crime occurred, and 479 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 2: so there were a lot of eyes on this case 480 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 2: and a lot of scrutiny. 481 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:18,880 Speaker 1: What happened If we're skipping ahead between twenty seventeen, five 482 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 1: and a half years later for them to then be 483 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 1: able to make an arrest, what was the big change. 484 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,199 Speaker 2: Well, they realized that somebody that they had spoke to 485 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 2: back in twenty seventeen that at one time was treated 486 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,680 Speaker 2: as more of a witness, probably should be looked at 487 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,679 Speaker 2: as a suspect. Because look, you get fifty thousand tips 488 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 2: come in saying this is your guy. He looks just 489 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 2: like the picture of bridge guy that you guys released 490 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,879 Speaker 2: to the public. The problem with ninety nine percent of 491 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 2: those people that the masses are providing to law enforcement 492 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 2: is that they weren't there. They were not in the 493 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 2: area that day. One thing that we know has to 494 00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 2: have taken place is the killer had to have been 495 00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:02,679 Speaker 2: there on the trails that day. He had to be 496 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 2: in Delphi, Indiana on that Monday afternoon. No IF's hands 497 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 2: or butts about it. So this individual, a man named 498 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 2: Richard Allen, had spoke to a I keep calling him 499 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 2: a resource a natural resource officer, because that's what we 500 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 2: call him in my neck of the woods. But I 501 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 2: believe this individual is referred to as a conservation officer. 502 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 2: So to be clear, like because now the investigators are 503 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 2: taking even after the arrest, they're still taking a lot 504 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 2: of blame and criticism here because people were going, well, 505 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 2: you talk to the guy five and a half years ago, 506 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 2: what's the problem. He was right there all this time. Now, 507 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,439 Speaker 2: to be clear, it does not sound like Richard Allen 508 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 2: went marching into the Sheriff's department said let me speak 509 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 2: to your homicide detective. No, it sounds to me like 510 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 2: he might have been out somewhere and spoke to this 511 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 2: conservation officer and said, look, I was out on the 512 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,160 Speaker 2: trails that day. This is what I was doing, This 513 00:27:58,240 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 2: was the time I arrived, this is the time I've 514 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:02,159 Speaker 2: who did you see while I was out there? I 515 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 2: saw a couple of girls, But they weren't the victims. 516 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:06,719 Speaker 2: They were a couple of the other girls are okay. 517 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 2: And so a note was made of this information. They 518 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 2: are reviewing all of their information years later, in fact 519 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:19,400 Speaker 2: that this was late summer of last year, and somebody goes, 520 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 2: wait a second, has anybody followed up and talked to 521 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 2: this guy that says he was there that day? And 522 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 2: they realized No, nobody's talked to him a second time. 523 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 2: Nobody's called him into the sheriff's department. Nobody's had proper 524 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 2: investigators talk to him. And when they do that, that's 525 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,719 Speaker 2: when they go hold on, this guy makes for a 526 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 2: far better suspect than he does potential witness. After we've 527 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:45,960 Speaker 2: talked to him, tell me. 528 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: About Richard and Allen. What do we know about him. 529 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 2: He's a short guy that has lived in Delphi for 530 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 2: at least six or seven years before the murders took place, 531 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 2: worked at a CVS, so he's somebody that would have 532 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 2: been known to other people there. He had a concealed 533 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 2: weapons license for several years. According to him, he took 534 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 2: regular walks on those trails. He lived about a five 535 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:15,719 Speaker 2: minute drive from there, so not far at all, and 536 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 2: by his own admission, he was there that day on 537 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,479 Speaker 2: the trails. What we don't know. What we didn't know 538 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,959 Speaker 2: is that they were looking for a gun, and they 539 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 2: were looking for whatever sharp instrument killed the girls. And 540 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 2: in their interview, in their official interview with Richard Allen 541 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 2: and his wife late last year, in late summer of 542 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 2: last year, they learned that he yes, he owns firearms. 543 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 2: Yes he owns knives, and the ones that he owned 544 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 2: in twenty seventeen are still in his house till this day. 545 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 2: And so they rushed out and got a search warrant 546 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 2: for his property and searched his home that night after 547 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 2: speaking with him and his wife, because they were worried that, oh, 548 00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 2: this guy threw our questioning of him in our interviews, 549 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 2: we might have tipped him off that he is a suspect, 550 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 2: and now he may feel the need to get rid 551 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 2: of some of that stuff that he has at his house. 552 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 2: Let's go and get it now before he has the 553 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 2: opportunity to. So what had happened was they had found 554 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 2: a bullet. Now this was a live round. This was 555 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 2: not a shell casing. This was a bullet that had been, 556 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 2: for a lack of a better term, racked through a gun. 557 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 2: And when that happens, if it's a live round and 558 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 2: you're racking it again so you can rack it to 559 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 2: load it into the chamber to be fired, if you 560 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 2: hit the rack again, it's going to expel that bullet 561 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 2: out this typically out the side of the gun, and 562 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:45,240 Speaker 2: then it's going to load another bullet. So what happened, 563 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 2: for whatever reason, either he purposely racked it to gain 564 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 2: control of the girls at some point, or during the 565 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 2: course of a scuffle it accidentally gets racked through the gun, 566 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 2: or maybe he was unaware that he had already lowed 567 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 2: you loaded the gun and decided to rack it. But 568 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 2: they were not killed by a gun. But what they 569 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 2: found at the scene, very close to one of the 570 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 2: victim's bodies, is this bullet that had been racked through 571 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,959 Speaker 2: a gun, and it had it had markings on it 572 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 2: that would tell us what kind of gun? What gun 573 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 2: this bullet came from. So they're not doing ballistics like 574 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 2: we're used to, where somebody shoots somebody and they have 575 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 2: rifling and exactly so in this situation, this is a 576 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 2: microscope comparison by an expert, and this person is saying, Okay, 577 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 2: this gun we confiscated from Richard Allen's home. We racked 578 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 2: the bullet through there and it has the same markings 579 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 2: as the bullet that we found at the murder scene. 580 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 2: And Richard Allen's own words are, no, I've never lent 581 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 2: that gun to anyone. It's never been out of my possession. 582 00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:58,960 Speaker 2: And no, I've never been on that piece of land 583 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 2: where the girls were out. So that statement to police 584 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 2: has set a very high hurdle for his defense team 585 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 2: to clear when this thing gets to a trial. 586 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 1: What about DNA, Well, if they. 587 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:16,720 Speaker 2: Have Richard Allen's DNA at the murder scene, they've not 588 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 2: told us that. Now, the court documents that have been released, 589 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 2: and some of them not all have been released, but 590 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 2: some of them have. The court documents do not suggest 591 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 2: that that's what they were seeking when building their case 592 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 2: against Richard Allen. 593 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 1: Does that seem odd to you? 594 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,920 Speaker 2: Well, yes, it's easy to speculate that this is some 595 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 2: type of sexually motivated crimes, and so one would believe 596 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 2: that there was some kind of sexual assault. You could 597 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 2: have trace DNA. There's all kinds of DNA that we 598 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 2: could have at the scene. Now we do have law 599 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 2: enforcement on record saying yes we have DNA in this case. 600 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 2: Yes we have fingerprints in this case. We just don't 601 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,320 Speaker 2: know if they're the suspects. And so keep in mind 602 00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 2: it was a search party that found them and at 603 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 2: some point you have law enforcement, paramedics, you have all 604 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 2: kinds of people in and out of this outdoor scene. 605 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 2: An outdoor murder scene is completely different from an indoor 606 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 2: murder scene where it's a controlled environment. So that made 607 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 2: the situation difficult for law enforcement. And I look, do 608 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 2: I think Richard Allen is some kind of brilliant criminal. No, 609 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 2: but I think that he just got lucky and he 610 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 2: didn't leave his DNA there that day. Because one thing 611 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 2: that took place is they finally solved the April Tinsley 612 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 2: case from the eighties. This was the murder of a 613 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 2: little girl and they had DNA. They had suspect DNA 614 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:40,760 Speaker 2: in that case, and what they did was they went 615 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 2: the genealogy route with April Tinsley, and that didn't take 616 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 2: place until after Abby and Libby were killed in Delphi, Indiana. 617 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 2: So I was of the belief that those two things 618 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 2: were not completely a coincidence that they went down that 619 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 2: route to solve what is probably one of the most 620 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 2: well known and worse crimes in Indiana state history, the 621 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,480 Speaker 2: murder of April Tenseley. They use genealogy DNA detection work 622 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 2: to solve that case. I don't think it was a coincidence. 623 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 2: I think they went down that road and thought we 624 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 2: might have to go down that road here for the 625 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 2: Delphi case. Again, if they have Richard Allen's DNA at 626 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 2: the murder scene, that's something we'll learn at trial. But 627 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:24,240 Speaker 2: it doesn't appear that that's the case. 628 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 1: Is this confirmed to sexual assaults both of them or no. 629 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 2: Not confirmed sexual assaults. But the other thing too, these 630 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 2: guys that commit these types of crimes, they can be 631 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,439 Speaker 2: of a sexual nature or sexually motivated without it being 632 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 2: obvious to the rest of us, So that could play 633 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 2: a big part in this case. The other thing too, 634 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 2: to keep in mind with how dangerous this type of 635 00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:53,760 Speaker 2: individual is. I'm not saying that he would have morphed 636 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 2: into a serial killer or went out even did this again, 637 00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,839 Speaker 2: but it's difficult to believe that he would not have. 638 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 2: And the fact of the matter at the end of 639 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 2: the day is Libby filming him. Can you imagine what 640 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:12,880 Speaker 2: he experienced when he's watching the news and realizes, holy shit, 641 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 2: they got my picture, Holy shit, they got my voice. 642 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 2: That little girl saved lives that day. If there ever 643 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 2: was a one to go out and do something like 644 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 2: this again, we could have had that situation here. And 645 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 2: I firmly believe that any idea that this guy would 646 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 2: have thought about doing this a second time was completely 647 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:35,319 Speaker 2: squashed by this brave little girl and her actions that day. 648 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,239 Speaker 1: There does seem to be a lot of missing information 649 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: that prosecutors and investigators have held on to, and I'm 650 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 1: sure that does drive people crazy. How as a citizen sleuth, 651 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:56,400 Speaker 1: are people able to help legitimately help investigators without hindering 652 00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,400 Speaker 1: an investigation. It seems to me to be able to 653 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 1: provide actual, real confirmed clues and keeping it in the media, 654 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:10,799 Speaker 1: but not this wild, crazy speculating that is hurtful and 655 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:11,920 Speaker 1: so unhelpful. 656 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,360 Speaker 2: Well, and you had said knee jerk reaction earlier, and 657 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:17,919 Speaker 2: I think that's the thing to hone in here too, 658 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:22,520 Speaker 2: that people need to not just react immediately right If 659 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,200 Speaker 2: you got to you got to picture somebody you think 660 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 2: might be responsible, do a little bit of the work yourself. 661 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 2: Can you put that individual in Carol County on that day? 662 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,240 Speaker 2: If the picture of the guy you have he's born 663 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 2: and raised in Hawaii and has lived most of his 664 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,840 Speaker 2: adult life in a Hawaii, do a little work to 665 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,439 Speaker 2: see if you can put that guy in the state 666 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 2: of Indiana. So as far as citizens sleuthing goes, in 667 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,839 Speaker 2: this case, one thing that they did which was really good, 668 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,760 Speaker 2: and I hope that this carries on to other cases 669 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,600 Speaker 2: where there's a lot of tips coming in. They kept 670 00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 2: reminding the public that they prefer, they strongly prefer, that 671 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:05,360 Speaker 2: you email your tip rather than call it in because 672 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 2: it creates a paper trail. It's something that they can 673 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,720 Speaker 2: return to and guess what, When you call in a tip, 674 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:14,920 Speaker 2: your tip is open to interpretation from the person that 675 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,880 Speaker 2: takes the tip and writes down the information and catalogs 676 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 2: the information. If you yourself are typing that out on 677 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 2: an email, that's firsthand, that's coming from you as a 678 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 2: potential witness or you as a person with some potential 679 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 2: insider knowledge. So that's documentation, documented information that they can 680 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:39,000 Speaker 2: return to, and it's not open to interpretation from phoning 681 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 2: something in. So look, the public certainly helped and did 682 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 2: hurt in this case, but you can't fault people for 683 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,320 Speaker 2: at the end of the day, wanting to do something 684 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,799 Speaker 2: to help. I don't retaliate too much when people had 685 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,360 Speaker 2: bad information. It's more of the it's more of the 686 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 2: stuff that was just completely sort of out of bounds 687 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 2: and people saying things about the family families are weird 688 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 2: or whatever. It's like, No, there was nothing weird about 689 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,360 Speaker 2: any of these families. And I said this a couple 690 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 2: times in the book. In the end, the way that 691 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 2: these family members conducted themselves with such strength, courage, and 692 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,560 Speaker 2: grace in the face of you know, one's character is 693 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 2: best judged in the time of tragedy. I cannot think 694 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,120 Speaker 2: of any greater tragedy than this. And to see the 695 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,080 Speaker 2: way that these individuals handled themselves in a weird way, 696 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 2: they were teaching us how to be strong through this, 697 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 2: teaching the rest of the community how to be strong 698 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,320 Speaker 2: through this. So It's one of those cases that, unfortunately 699 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:37,520 Speaker 2: we sit here all these years later, we don't have 700 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,480 Speaker 2: a whole lot of the information, which makes it all 701 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:45,040 Speaker 2: that more mysterious. But I do hope now that since 702 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,680 Speaker 2: there has been a rest, the public is still crying 703 00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:51,480 Speaker 2: out and screaming, we want more information, we want more information. No, 704 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,239 Speaker 2: let's stop that right now, because what we will have, 705 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,200 Speaker 2: what we are going to be faced with soon, is 706 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,880 Speaker 2: trying to get a judication in this case, trying to 707 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 2: get a conviction in this case. And I do not 708 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,400 Speaker 2: want to be setting the table for a hung jury, 709 00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:12,319 Speaker 2: a mistrial, or lining up a bunch of appeals for 710 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,680 Speaker 2: the guilty party. In this situation, they very likely have 711 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:19,240 Speaker 2: the guy that's responsible. Let's let this thing work itself 712 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 2: out the appropriate way and the correct way in the courts. 713 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,040 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 714 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,160 Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That 715 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,720 Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock. This has been an exactly 716 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:47,839 Speaker 1: right production. Our senior producer is Alexis M. Morosi. Our 717 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:52,319 Speaker 1: associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed by 718 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:56,960 Speaker 1: John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer, artwork by Nick Toga, 719 00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:01,520 Speaker 1: Executive produced by Georgia Hartstark, Karen kil Gareff and Danielle Kramer. 720 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:05,560 Speaker 1: Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more 721 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 1: Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more. And if you 722 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:10,920 Speaker 1: know of a historical crime that could use some attention 723 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:14,120 Speaker 1: from the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email us at 724 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:18,799 Speaker 1: info at tenfoldmorewicked dot com. We'll also take your suggestions 725 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,160 Speaker 1: for true crime authors for Wicked Words