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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast am on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: And welcome back to Coast to Coast George Nori with you,

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Speaker 2: Stafford Betty back with us. As an afterlife researcher, novelist,

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Speaker 2: and Emeridis University professor of religious Studies, Stafford believes it's

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Speaker 2: natural for all of us to give the afterlife some

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Speaker 2: thought and says that materialists who deny its existence are

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Speaker 2: down right wrong. Stafford, welcome back. Have you been I've

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Speaker 2: been fine.

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Speaker 3: It's a little late, but I'm ready to go.

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Speaker 2: We're going to keep you awake for two hours.

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Speaker 3: I appreciate that you get it.

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Speaker 2: Guardians of the Afterworld. That was your last latest book, right,

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Speaker 2: that's correct. It's darn goodwin. Everybody keeps talking about it

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Speaker 2: when you're on the show with my buddy George knapback

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Speaker 2: in February. Oh yeah, I can't believe it. Years gone

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Speaker 2: by already true. How did you get interested in the afterlife?

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Speaker 3: Well, I have been basically a curious person all my life,

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Speaker 3: and as a kid going to a Catholic school, belief

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Speaker 3: in a nafurlife pregatory in particular was really drummed into

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Speaker 3: me and it became something even something that I worried

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Speaker 3: about a little bit as I was ten years old

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Speaker 3: and I was being in a wonder what is it

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Speaker 3: really like? Is it really as bad as I've been told?

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Speaker 3: So I think it went way back to my beginnings,

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Speaker 3: and I've been wondering about what's over there ever since.

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Speaker 3: Of course, I've justoned everything that Nune told me and

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Speaker 3: have done my own research and come to my own conclusions.

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Speaker 2: My parents taught me about the afterlife. I believed in that.

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Speaker 2: I was raised Catholic, went to Catechism classes and things

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Speaker 2: like that. But jump ahead years. A few years ago,

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Speaker 2: I had a friend of my died in a motorcycle accident,

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Speaker 2: tragic and at the funeral, I'm looking at his corpse

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Speaker 2: stafford in the coffin, and he looked so plastic and

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Speaker 2: so artificial the way they hadn't made up because it

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Speaker 2: was really a tragic accident. But for a split second,

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Speaker 2: as I'm looking at him, something came over me and

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Speaker 2: I felt, this is it for him. It's over. There

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Speaker 2: is no afterlife, it's done. And I got to tell

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Speaker 2: you that split second was the coldest, starkest, uneasiest feeling

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Speaker 2: I have ever had in my life. I got out

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Speaker 2: of it, I said, I didn't feel that for a

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Speaker 2: long time. I went back to my old need that

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Speaker 2: I believe in the afterlife. But for that split second,

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Speaker 2: it was really really lonesome. What happened to me? Why

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Speaker 2: did I even think that?

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Speaker 1: George?

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Speaker 3: You know, you put your finger on something that I

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Speaker 3: needed to say at the outset. The thought that there

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Speaker 3: is nothing after existence on this earth is a horrible thought.

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Speaker 3: It's a real downer. I mean, anyone who enjoys life

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Speaker 3: is going to want to have more of it. The

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Speaker 3: thought of it becoming completely something of the past and

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Speaker 3: the piece of history and that's all it is, is unacceptable.

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Speaker 3: And so that's another reason that I continue to be

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Speaker 3: very interested in the afterlife. You put your finger on

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Speaker 3: it much better than I did when talking about my

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Speaker 3: ten year old experience. Well done.

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Speaker 2: Is it conceivable that, based on what you've just said,

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Speaker 2: religions created the afterlife so we wouldn't be so depressed

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Speaker 2: while we were living.

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Speaker 3: I think that that's not the real reason. When you

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Speaker 3: go way back in history, I think the real reason

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Speaker 3: comes from people being aware of visions, that they have

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Speaker 3: ghosts that they see and live with and they begin

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Speaker 3: to think that, you know, there's got to be something else,

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Speaker 3: because this guy is still hanging around. He's dead, And

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Speaker 3: I think that evidence suggests that there is something more

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Speaker 3: to life than just the need to believe. Though I

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Speaker 3: think the need to believe certainly encouraged further investigation and

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Speaker 3: deeper thought.

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Speaker 2: I put together a complexity of issues where I believe

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Speaker 2: the afterlife exists, and I talk about the universe. We

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Speaker 2: still don't know how the Big Bang happened, right, We

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Speaker 2: don't know what life is. We really don't even know

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Speaker 2: what we're here for. No add religion to it, or spirituality,

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Speaker 2: call it whatever you want. It then starts to make

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Speaker 2: a lot of sense in terms of the fact that

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Speaker 2: there's something else out there. Estremely remarkable, isn't it.

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Speaker 3: I agree. I think religion does a real service. It's

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Speaker 3: just that it's a fairly clumsy instrument. It doesn't need,

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Speaker 3: It doesn't know as much as we know now after

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Speaker 3: doing our own re search. But it's got the heart

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Speaker 3: in the right place. Absolutely it does. It affirms that

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Speaker 3: there is an afterlife. It believes that we are responsible

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Speaker 3: for our decisions, the kinds of beings that we've become

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Speaker 3: through our choices and our habits. All of this is necessary,

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Speaker 3: I think, and good for human.

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Speaker 2: Beings, Stafford. For those who do not believe, would you

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Speaker 2: say their life is unhappy, unfulfilled?

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Speaker 3: I have talked to any number of people and tried

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Speaker 3: to show them why they should feel that way. Many

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Speaker 3: say no, you know, I'm used to the thought. I've

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Speaker 3: gotten familiar. I accept the fact that I simply become nothing.

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Speaker 3: I've always felt, George, that they were in denial, that

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Speaker 3: they aren't really honest, they aren't going deep enough. I

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Speaker 3: have talked to other atheists and materialists who admit that

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Speaker 3: it's a sorry situation that we're all in and that

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Speaker 3: life does end catastrophically, but others are really deceiving themselves.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's a good point. That's that's truly a good boy.

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Speaker 2: How do you convince the skeptic, the non believer that

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Speaker 2: the afterlife is real?

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Speaker 3: I haven't had much success with that, George. I've been

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Speaker 3: trying with a number of my friends, and they simply

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Speaker 3: refuse to read anything that I ever written. They don't

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Speaker 3: like me to talk about death and what comes beyond.

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Speaker 3: I even broke up a party once by saying you know,

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Speaker 3: what do you guys think happens after death? Everybody went

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Speaker 3: home in a hurry, so I haven't had much success.

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Speaker 3: It's just that a lot of people feel that they

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Speaker 3: that it's that the afterlife is something that they basically regarded,

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Speaker 3: that they regard now as a superstition, and they don't

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Speaker 3: want to be duped by something that they regard as superstitious,

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Speaker 3: so they just accept the hard truth and get along

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Speaker 3: with life and then die. I think rather miserably when

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Speaker 3: they actually confront what they believe.

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Speaker 2: When I tell the non believers, I'd basically say, if

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Speaker 2: I'm right that there is an afterlife, yeah, you will

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Speaker 2: find out about it. If I'm wrong, it doesn't matter.

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Speaker 3: Right, that's true. I don't think there's any chance in

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Speaker 3: the world that you're wrong. I think the evidence is

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Speaker 3: simply overwhelming that there is an after life. The question

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Speaker 3: is not so much is there an after life, but

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Speaker 3: what it's like. There's a great deal that we can

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Speaker 3: argue about the evidence that comes to us about that,

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Speaker 3: And it's not completely clear to me exactly what happens.

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Speaker 3: It's certainly not clear to me what's going to happen

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Speaker 3: to me, specifically, when I die. But as far as

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Speaker 3: the general rules and the cultures and the kinds of

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Speaker 3: inhabitants that we meet, the rules the governed life over there,

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Speaker 3: I think it's generally coming into clarity.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, just think at this moment with us

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Speaker 2: right now, Stefford. We're doing an international radio show. There

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Speaker 2: are millions of people listening. You'll find out when you

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Speaker 2: get phone calls next hour. And I mean, there's got

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Speaker 2: to be more to this than meets the eye. That

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Speaker 2: alone should make you believe that there's something else.

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Speaker 3: Yep, I brought a grief shorts. It's a mysterious world

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Speaker 3: that we live in. There are too many hints that

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Speaker 3: there is something more than just this physical life that

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Speaker 3: we are enjoying right now. There's just too many evidences

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Speaker 3: that take us in a different direction. In my book

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Speaker 3: did You When? Did You ever Become Less by Dying?

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Speaker 3: I look at these nine basic types of evidences, all

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Speaker 3: pointing in the same direction that we do survive death.

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Speaker 3: There's just much evidence out there. And that's one of

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Speaker 3: the things that I look at in my writings and

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Speaker 3: in shows like this.

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Speaker 2: Do you find that most people who have lengthy educational

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Speaker 2: processes like PhDs are generally non believers.

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Speaker 3: They are much more likely to be non believers, in

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Speaker 3: my estimate, than those who don't have that kind of education.

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Speaker 3: It's almost as if they feel that smart people can't

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Speaker 3: believe in something so weird and so unsupported as another world,

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Speaker 3: a spiritual world, a non physical world. You know, we

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Speaker 3: don't see it, we can't smell it. How can you

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Speaker 3: believe in such a thing. And they don't want to

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Speaker 3: look at the evidence. They just don't believe that there

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Speaker 3: is any evidence out there for them to take seriously.

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Speaker 3: It's a terrible bias that they come to by their

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Speaker 3: supposedly scientific upbringing. I think their upbringing is entirely unscientific

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Speaker 3: because they don't look at the evidence. A true scientist

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Speaker 3: is unafraid to look at the evidence, and these people

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Speaker 3: refuse to look at it. They're too smart to look

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Speaker 3: at it. Their PhDs have somewhat, I don't know, marred

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Speaker 3: their growth.

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Speaker 2: You find people who have had near death experiences are

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Speaker 2: more apt to believe in the afterlife.

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Speaker 3: Overwhelmingly without a doubt. They don't even have any doubts

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Speaker 3: about it. They're more sure of it than even I am.

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Speaker 3: You know, I'm ninety nine percent sure of it. But

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Speaker 3: these guys know, and I think that their assurance is

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Speaker 3: something that as a scientist I need to take seriously.

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Speaker 3: These are people who've actually had the experience. People who

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Speaker 3: debunk it haven't had anything like that. Are they experts?

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Speaker 3: They're not the experts. Those who had it are, and

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Speaker 3: we need to listen to them.

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Speaker 2: And I do do you go further into reincarnation?

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Speaker 3: I do. I please don't think that I like the

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Speaker 3: idea of having come back and relearn the abcs and

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Speaker 3: the multiplication tables. I don't like that at all. As

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Speaker 3: a matter of fact, I'm volunteering a volunteer second grade

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Speaker 3: third grade teacher, and I see these kids struggling with

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Speaker 3: their with their language, and I think to myself, Man,

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Speaker 3: this is not something I ever.

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Speaker 1: Want to do.

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Speaker 3: But the evidence is there. It's very profound, it's extremely impressive,

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Speaker 3: and it comes from a man in particular who has

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Speaker 3: sometimes regarding this mister reincarnation, and the books simply point

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Speaker 3: out too many indications of the little kids who remember

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Speaker 3: specifically their past lives and extremely specifically can name people

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Speaker 3: from that life, even the villages where they used to live.

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Speaker 3: And it checks out so Ian Stevenson's books have made

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Speaker 3: a real impact on me. This is science at its best,

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Speaker 3: and I can't deny that reincarnation is true for these

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Speaker 3: little kids. And if it's true for them, can't imagine

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Speaker 3: why it wouldn't be true for everybody else.

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Speaker 2: This show has gotten me close to a number of

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Speaker 2: people like Raymond Moody, Evan, like Xander, people who have

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Speaker 2: experienced incredible things. And I mean, I just I'm convinced

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Speaker 2: the afterlife is the real thing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we all are. We're all hanging together,

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Speaker 3: you know, trying to get the message out to the world,

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Speaker 3: and it's listening slowly. We're making headway more with people,

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Speaker 3: ordinary folk who don't have these high degrees than with them.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, have you gotten into a heated argument over

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Speaker 2: the topic? Oh?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, absolutely, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Who loses their cool? First?

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Speaker 4: You were the skeptic, I'd say it's about I really,

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Speaker 4: you're honest about it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, They's quite frustrating dealing with these speaker In my

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Speaker 3: earlier years, I would become frustrated. I don't anymore. I

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Speaker 3: know how to handle these folks. I've heard it so

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Speaker 3: often before it's almost rather boring to come across it.

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Speaker 3: One more time. It doesn't upset me anymore. I just

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Speaker 3: accept it for the way that it is. It's just

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Speaker 3: the world we live in. There are people like that.

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Speaker 3: They're unconvincible.

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Speaker 2: Is it because when they were kids they were brought

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Speaker 2: up the wrong way?

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Speaker 3: I think it's because they were many of them were

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Speaker 3: brought up. The brighter they were, the more clearly they

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Speaker 3: could see that much that they were getting at Sunday

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Speaker 3: School was nonsense, and so they began to think that

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Speaker 3: what comes from religion, including belief in an afterlife, probably

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Speaker 3: isn't true. They might take a course, a science course

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Speaker 3: in high school as a junior or senior. They might

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Speaker 3: begin to feel that the teacher really doesn't have much

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Speaker 3: use for religion, and that might seal the deal. College

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Speaker 3: philosophy courses might further seal the deal against any belief

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Speaker 3: in an afterlife. So there's a lot of bias, particularly

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Speaker 3: among philosophy instructors at public universities, against anything like a

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Speaker 3: spiritual world or spiritual beings seventy seven percent, a figure

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Speaker 3: I saw some years ago. Philosophy instructors at public institutions

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Speaker 3: are atheists and materialists.

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Speaker 2: Stafford, wasn't it the Stephen jobs from Apple computer on

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Speaker 2: his deathbed basically said oh wow, oow. I mean he

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Speaker 2: saw something.

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Speaker 1: He did.

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Speaker 3: He said it three times. It was just before he died.

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Speaker 3: His sister wrote about this and that's exactly what he said.

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Speaker 3: He did say, oh oh wow. It came out like that.

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Speaker 3: He could see and he was having what is known

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Speaker 3: as a deathbed experience. He had a peep at the

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Speaker 3: world that he was about to enter. It's interesting because

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Speaker 3: he had spent most of his life as a doubter.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't until the last few weeks of his life

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Speaker 3: that he opened up to belief in and afterlife, and

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Speaker 3: he was rewarded richly for his later, more mature vision

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Speaker 3: with that scene, that quick scene of the earth of

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Speaker 3: the world that he was about to enter. It's one

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Speaker 3: of the ask the two types of deathbed visions, and

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Speaker 3: that's one of them, a kind of a peep into

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Speaker 3: the world you were about to enter. And the other

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Speaker 3: one is visions of friends and loved ones to cease.

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Speaker 3: Loved ones who come down and circle your bedroom and

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Speaker 3: you have conversations with them and they're there apparently to

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Speaker 3: take you home with them. So yeah, death ed visions

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Speaker 3: one of the nine types of evidences that suggests that

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Speaker 3: there is an afterlife.

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Speaker 2: Do you have a deathbed story you could share with.

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Speaker 3: Us a deathbed story? Not personally, I don't. It's remarkable

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Speaker 3: how free of any tragedy my life has moved along

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Speaker 3: without So there are no stories like yours with Nancy.

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Speaker 3: That was an amazing story? Or was that Tom who

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Speaker 3: had that story?

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Speaker 2: That was me?

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Speaker 3: That was you? Right, I don't have anything quite like that.

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Speaker 3: I can't match that. That was a great story.

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Speaker 2: George, eighty five years old. Yeah, she's probably listening to

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Speaker 2: the show right now. Well maybe again. If she calls in,

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Speaker 2: I'll freak out. But that's okay, it happens.

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Speaker 3: You know, books have been written about telephone calls from

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Speaker 3: the dead.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's true. They have some means to communicate with electronics,

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Speaker 2: that's right.

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Speaker 3: Instrumental transcommunication is one of the nine basic ways that

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Speaker 3: the deceased are trying to tell us, hey, we're alive.

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