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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel

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Speaker 1: one two. I don't give about what anybody thinks about him.

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Speaker 1: For Mom, they never will. I'm okay with myself. I

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Speaker 1: sleep pretty good. At a two year old little girl

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Speaker 1: goes missing, a nation is gripped by the search for

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Speaker 1: the child, and in the end, the body of the

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Speaker 1: little girl is found just ten houses from mommy's home.

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Speaker 1: Quite the coincidence, right, I'm talking about top Mom, Casey Anthony,

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Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us tonight, March eleven, p M. Grace versus

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Speaker 1: Abrams on an E. Please join me. We bring on

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Speaker 1: witnesses and evidence that have never been heard nor seen

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Speaker 1: by a jury, testimony that I believe would have changed

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Speaker 1: the course of the verdict. With me right now and

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Speaker 1: all star line up. Troy Slayton, high profile lawyer out

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Speaker 1: of l A. Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert professor at

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Speaker 1: Jackson State University, crime scene investigator, Cheryl McCullum, WSB radio star,

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Speaker 1: Robin Willinski, Ashley Wilcot, founder of Child Crime watch dot com.

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Speaker 1: Meredison's HULO w f l A TV to break it

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Speaker 1: down and put it back together again. But first listen

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Speaker 1: to Dan Abrams. You don't see how it could have

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Speaker 1: possibly been an accident. Calley's body was found double bagged

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Speaker 1: in trash baggage, and you're saying that could have been

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Speaker 1: an accident. We knew at the trial that she was

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Speaker 1: lying about everything. Do you think that Casey Anthony murdered Kayley?

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Speaker 1: That's a trick question. I don't say how. That's a

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Speaker 1: trick question. You think straight to Meredith since Julo w

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Speaker 1: f l A t V. I was just in Orlando, Meredith,

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Speaker 1: and everywhere I looked, I had the twins with me

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Speaker 1: for spring break. Everywhere I looked, all I could say

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Speaker 1: was Kayley Anthony. It just it's amazing to me that

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Speaker 1: Todd mom, Casey Anthony walks free and at try and

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Speaker 1: try to blame her own father, George Anthony. But just recently, Meredith,

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Speaker 1: she gave an AP interview. They said, what do you

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Speaker 1: think happened? Really happened to Kelly Goes. I don't know

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Speaker 1: the last time I saw her, she was alive. Take

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Speaker 1: a listen to this. Give me the situation when things

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Speaker 1: went wrong. One of the things go wrong all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, it's like, where's Kaylee is? No, what I

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Speaker 1: remember is being in bed, my mom coming in before

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Speaker 1: she left her work and saying goodbye to us, and

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Speaker 1: then waking up several hours later and moning hour two

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Speaker 1: hours later and not knowing where she was. Well, that's

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Speaker 1: not what they said at trial. Did she forget She

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Speaker 1: claimed her child drowned in the pool and her dad

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Speaker 1: threw the body away. Well, you know, Nancy, this whole

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Speaker 1: case was built on Casey's house of lies. There were

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Speaker 1: so many lies unveiled through the testimony that kept getting

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Speaker 1: shot down. But unfortunately, at the end of the day

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Speaker 1: a jury here in the Tampa area, they had to

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Speaker 1: move the trial. As you know, Uh, the jury decided

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Speaker 1: that they were going to believe Casey. They were going

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Speaker 1: to believe that there was more than a reasonable doubt

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Speaker 1: to convict her. And those of us sitting here and

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Speaker 1: following the case and watching it could see, Wait, no,

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Speaker 1: that's a lie. That's a lie. That's life. So many lies,

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Speaker 1: from her employment to what she was doing for all

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Speaker 1: that time, the month in between when she last saw

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Speaker 1: her parents and then finally said that Kaylee was missing.

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Speaker 1: Everything she said as Anny than Anny doesn't exist, all

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Speaker 1: of that, none of it exists. With Meredith Cincelo, You're

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Speaker 1: absolutely right to Robert Willlynsky WSB. We went through every

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Speaker 1: single fact at that trial, and you know, Robin, let's

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Speaker 1: start at the beginning. Hold on, I got ahead of

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Speaker 1: myself for those of you just joining us tonight the

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Speaker 1: premiere of Grace Versus Abrahams, and we kick it off

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Speaker 1: with new evidence and witnesses that I believe if they

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Speaker 1: have been brought to trial there would be a different verdict.

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Speaker 1: And I mean that Robert Willlynsky w s B aren't

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Speaker 1: at the beginning about how Kiley, two year old little

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Speaker 1: Killy goes missing, right, Nancy, you know, we sat through

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Speaker 1: every day of this trial together for six weeks. I

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Speaker 1: can remember the start of the timeline when the prosecutors

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Speaker 1: laid it out she was gone for thirty one days

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Speaker 1: and then suddenly no one knows where she is. And

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Speaker 1: Kasey Anthony, as they said a trial, she had more characters,

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Speaker 1: more fictitious characters that she told lives to the police.

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Speaker 1: Then then Disney has characters and she was, you know,

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Speaker 1: a NonStop lawyer. The child goes missing, and then it's

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Speaker 1: her mother, Cindy Anthony, that fine, her car is abandoned,

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Speaker 1: and they get the car out of the toe place

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Speaker 1: and she opens the trunk and she calls nine one one,

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Speaker 1: and she actually says, it smells like there's been a

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Speaker 1: dead body in the car. And what's another interesting point

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Speaker 1: about that. Let me go to Ashu Willcott, founder off

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Speaker 1: child crime watch dot com, juvenile judge an advocate Ashley

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Speaker 1: here's the thing that was. I don't think it was

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Speaker 1: ever really focused on the car top mom Casey Anthony's

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Speaker 1: car was found in a toe lot. She, according to

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Speaker 1: the state, had killed her baby, all right, probably through

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Speaker 1: homemade chloroform. Was there's a search on our computer for

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Speaker 1: homemade chloroform. The car reeked of chloroform. Chloroform was found

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Speaker 1: in her car trunk. I guarantee there's not chloroform in

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Speaker 1: my car trunk. And as the mother, Cindy says on

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Speaker 1: the one call when she finally tracks down the car,

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Speaker 1: it smells like a dead body in the damn car.

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Speaker 1: Those were her words. One As Cindy, the grandmother is

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Speaker 1: piecing together her granddaughter's missing, her daughter has been on

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Speaker 1: the run for thirty one days and the car smells

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Speaker 1: like a dead body. And here's the point. It's sent

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Speaker 1: a toe lot Todd. Mom had not reported the car

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Speaker 1: missing nothing. It was fine with her. She wanted that

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Speaker 1: car to get stolen because there was evidence of a

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Speaker 1: dead body in the trunk. Hold on, take a listen

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Speaker 1: to this the nine one one call. Can you tell

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Speaker 1: me a little bit what's going on? My daughter has

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Speaker 1: been missing for the last thirty one days, and you

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Speaker 1: know who has her? I know who after I've tried

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Speaker 1: to contact her. I actually received a phone call today

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Speaker 1: now from a number that is no longer in service.

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Speaker 1: I didn't get to get to my daughter for atom moments,

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Speaker 1: for about a minute. Okay, did you guys follow me

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Speaker 1: for a vehicle phone? Um? Yes, my mom did. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so there's been a vehicle shone too. No, this is

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Speaker 1: my vehicle. What a vehicle phone? Um, it's a eat

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Speaker 1: pniacs unfire. Okay. I have deputies on the way to

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Speaker 1: you right now for that. And now you're now you're

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Speaker 1: three old? Was missing? Kaylee Anthony kay white? Female? Yes? Wait?

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Speaker 1: Female three years old eight nine five or day to birth? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you last saw her a month ago, thirty one

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Speaker 1: days from thirty one days? Who has her? Can you

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Speaker 1: ever do a name? Her name is Zaneva Fernandez Gonzalas,

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Speaker 1: who is that? Maybe she's been my nanny for about

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Speaker 1: a year and a half, for almost two years? Why

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Speaker 1: why are you calling now? Why didn't you call it

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Speaker 1: for any one days ago? I've been looking for her

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Speaker 1: and have gone through other resources to try to find her,

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Speaker 1: which was stupid. Okay, can you can you give me

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Speaker 1: the name of the then nanny again? Like sell it

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Speaker 1: out for me? Whenia V E n A I E

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Speaker 1: A rest Fernandez Fernandez Gonzalez to as she will caught

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Speaker 1: way in. Absolutely this mother was complicit. If she didn't

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Speaker 1: actually murder the child, there's no way. Given all of

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Speaker 1: those facts and the chloroform and the trunk and the

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Speaker 1: smell and the trunk and the trunk and the car

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Speaker 1: and the impound lot, clearly she was complete. Hold on,

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Speaker 1: you said, if she didn't do it but was complicit,

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Speaker 1: what do you mean by that? What other sintilla of

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Speaker 1: evans do you have that someone else was involved. I

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Speaker 1: don't have any other evidence, but what we don't have

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Speaker 1: is a cause of death for the child. So either

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Speaker 1: she did it or maybe somebody else did do it,

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Speaker 1: or how the child was babysitting and killed the child,

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Speaker 1: and she knew and didn't protect the child and said, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna bury the child in the backyard. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I don't have any evidence, but I think at a minimum,

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Speaker 1: she was involved, buried the body, knew what had happened

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Speaker 1: to Joe Scott Morgan joining me, forensics expert Joe Scott.

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Speaker 1: It was on her computer, the search how to make chloroform,

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Speaker 1: how to make chloroform, homemade chloroform. It was in top

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Speaker 1: mom's car. Cindy Anthony was at work from seven thirty

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Speaker 1: in the morning on George Anthony, a former cop, was

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Speaker 1: at work that day. She was the one making the searches.

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Speaker 1: She was the one that had the child at the

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Speaker 1: very end, and it started with an explosive argument between

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Speaker 1: her and her mother, Cindy, about how to raise the

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Speaker 1: little girl. As we learn, the grandparents, Georgia Cindy were

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Speaker 1: the ones footing the bill, working every day to support

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Speaker 1: little Kelly, to raise her. They were all living in

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Speaker 1: their home. They were the ones that loved to take

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Speaker 1: care of the baby, and Cindy and Tom them how

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Speaker 1: to fight, a big argument about how to raise the child.

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Speaker 1: Top mom storms out, Kelly is never seen again. You know,

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Speaker 1: she almost committed the perfect murder. The reason they can't

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Speaker 1: find a cause of death, Nancy, is if, in fact,

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Speaker 1: she did use homemade chloroform on this child, which is

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Speaker 1: made from household bleach, acid tone ethanol. It's very simple

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Speaker 1: to make and highly highly toxic. By the time the

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Speaker 1: medical examiner was able to take a look at this child's,

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Speaker 1: this little angel's body that has been decomposing over this

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Speaker 1: period of time, there's no trace left. There is nothing left.

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Speaker 1: It's not like she was shot. It's not like wait

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Speaker 1: a minute, I'm gonna have to disagree with you, Joe

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Speaker 1: Scott more Gonna. Which is rare. Yes, two year old

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Speaker 1: Achilles body was skeletonized when it was found in a

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Speaker 1: wooded area just ten houses down from the Anthony home Boy.

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Speaker 1: The killer didn't go far, did they, But there was

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Speaker 1: duct tape wrapped around her mouth and no still attached

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Speaker 1: to her hair in the back. Okay, that duct tape

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Speaker 1: was still where it was. That child's mouth and nose

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Speaker 1: had been duct tape and she was chloroformed. Uh, that

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Speaker 1: is very strong evidence of homicide. Joe Scott, how are

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Speaker 1: you going to prove the chloroforming because she looked it

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Speaker 1: up on her computer. That doesn't excuse me. I wasn't done.

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Speaker 1: And number two and her car and her trunk is

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Speaker 1: the heavy presence of chloroform and the hair that Cindy

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Speaker 1: Anthony testified belongs to Kelly. Yeah, just just like they

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Speaker 1: had the heavy the heavy smell of human decomposition. The

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Speaker 1: prosecution screwed this case up with two much. Ask what

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Speaker 1: the evidence was. I gave you the evidence of chloroform. No,

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Speaker 1: let me get finished. Now. Chloroform is naturally occurring, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: It naturally occurs in fungus. She is in an area

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Speaker 1: that the defense can say that that chloroform naturally appeared

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Speaker 1: in the environment as she's decomposing. That's why this is

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Speaker 1: almost a perfect Thomas fung Us my Rare and Cheryl McCollum.

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Speaker 1: I'm see an investigator and director of the Cold Case Institute.

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Speaker 1: Do you hear Joseph Scott Morgan has she lost his mind?

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Speaker 1: There's not a funcus in that truck again, love joke, Scott,

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Speaker 1: but I've got a disagreement it on this. I do

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Speaker 1: not believe for one minute that chloroform came from anywhere

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Speaker 1: other than the perpetrator. Could you explain to him why

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Speaker 1: maybe he couldn't hear me. Maybe if I talk really

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Speaker 1: slowly you'll get it. You know. I tried that with

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Speaker 1: the twins and they go, Mom, I heard you the

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Speaker 1: first time. Why are you talking like this? So I

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Speaker 1: don't think that really works, sherl Can you help me place? Well? Again,

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Speaker 1: it would be different if she hadn't had the computer searches.

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Speaker 1: But there it is a black and white You're looking

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Speaker 1: something up and suddenly that's what's used in this crime.

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Speaker 1: There's no question. Okay, Troy Slayton, I hear you're chomping

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Speaker 1: at the bit. Go ahead and tell me why we're

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Speaker 1: all wrong. The prosecution really blew it when they brought

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Speaker 1: in the computer expert, Nancy saying that she had searched

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Speaker 1: for chloroform four times, just to have that expert skewered

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Speaker 1: when it turned out that the software that they had

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Speaker 1: used was wrong and she had only searched one time.

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Speaker 1: As it related to chloroform used in the nineteenth century,

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Speaker 1: Can I ask you what difference does it make? Because

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Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, you do one search about how to make

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Speaker 1: homemade chloroform, and then there's chloroform in your trunk with

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Speaker 1: your daughter's hair in your trunk, and then she turns

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Speaker 1: up Dad, I mean, am I missing part of this

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Speaker 1: jigsaw puzzle? Again? Those are thoughts are easily connected for me.

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Speaker 1: V rode out in my mind. Whether she researched it

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Speaker 1: what or eight times, it's just as bad, especially when

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Speaker 1: you can tie it to the dead child in your trunk.

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Speaker 1: And I saw Cindy Anthony tom Mom, Casey Anthony's mother

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Speaker 1: on the stand trying to explain the searches by saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: I was looking up chlora phil and some how chloroform happened.

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Speaker 1: You know, that was the dichotomy for me, Robin Wilenski

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Speaker 1: w s B. Because you have one mother they're willing

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Speaker 1: to commit perjury and possibly become a murder suspect. That

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Speaker 1: would be Cindy the height of a mother's love, sacrificing

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Speaker 1: herself for tot Mom. And then you have taught mom,

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Speaker 1: why did this day me and you believe murdered her

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Speaker 1: own little girl. What a juxtaposition? You know. The thing is, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: is that when you when you go back to that

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Speaker 1: point in time, and we were both sitting in the

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Speaker 1: courtroom that day. Cindy Anthony get into her head. She

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Speaker 1: already has a dead granddaughter at on that day, her

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Speaker 1: granddaughter is very much gone. And if you remember, Casey

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Speaker 1: was facing the death penalty, so she didn't want to

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Speaker 1: lose a second person, a loved one in her life,

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Speaker 1: and so she took the hit and lied. I just

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Speaker 1: want to say though, that some of your other guests here,

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Speaker 1: the other piece of evidence that is just huge in

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Speaker 1: this case is that the duct tape was from inside

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Speaker 1: the house and those there were two matching laundry bags,

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Speaker 1: white laundry bags, a pair from bed bath and beyond,

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Speaker 1: and little Kayley was wrapped in duct tape that was

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Speaker 1: from inside the house and a laundry bag from bed

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Speaker 1: bath and beyond that was from inside the house, and

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Speaker 1: a blanket that was from inside the house. So you

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Speaker 1: tell me who else could have done it? You know,

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Speaker 1: another issue right there to Ashley Willcott, juvenile Judge Ashley,

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Speaker 1: when rob O Lensky points out it's the same tape.

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Speaker 1: The duct tape used to wrap around the nose and

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Speaker 1: mouth of this two year old child was found on

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Speaker 1: gas cans in the home, in the garage on um

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Speaker 1: even on the flyers they used to put up Keiley

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Speaker 1: is missing, help us solve the case. It came from

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Speaker 1: the Anthony home. There's no dad out about it. I

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Speaker 1: don't understand how that went sideways at trial with that tape.

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Speaker 1: I don't either. So if I were on the bench

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Speaker 1: and I heard all of these pieces of circumstantial evidence

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Speaker 1: put together to paint the picture, I, as a judge,

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Speaker 1: would find that or would think that the jury would

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Speaker 1: find that she absolutely did murder this child. I question

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Speaker 1: why didn't all of this evidence come out in a

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Speaker 1: pattern to show and paint a picture to the jury

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Speaker 1: that this mother killed her taught well, not only that,

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Speaker 1: Troice Letton defense attorney joining me out of l A.

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Speaker 1: In addition for the searches for chloroform, was a search

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Speaker 1: on top mom's computer for neck breaking. I don't think

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Speaker 1: that's gonna pop up on my laptop. There are lots

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Speaker 1: of different reasons why you could get to lots of

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Speaker 1: different things on the computer, you know, Nancy. There were

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Speaker 1: fifty nine witnesses that the prosecution called, the defense called

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Speaker 1: forty some odd witnesses, and after all of that after

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Speaker 1: the jury sat there and listened for weeks on end,

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Speaker 1: they found her. Not only did they have a hung jury,

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Speaker 1: not only was it Why don't you address what I

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Speaker 1: ask you? I ask you about damning computer searches, and

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Speaker 1: all you can say is like a broken record. I

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Speaker 1: think that's how you win cases. It's a Stockholm syndrome.

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Speaker 1: You keep saying the same old thing to the jury

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Speaker 1: till they finally just go ahead and give you a

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Speaker 1: verdict so they can get out of there. They found

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Speaker 1: her not guilty. Nancy, Oh, you just said it again,

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Speaker 1: didn't you. You just said meredis cine Cilia. Let me

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Speaker 1: go to a reporter on this. Another issue is at trial, Meredith.

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Speaker 1: This is in your backyard, Meredith Cincilo joining me from

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Speaker 1: w f L A. Meredith, I want you front and

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Speaker 1: center in front of that TV tonight for Grace versus Abrams.

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Speaker 1: It's not Grace and Abrams, okay, because we're not on

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Speaker 1: the same side. It's Grace versus Abrams for a reason.

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Speaker 1: Now back to the trial. George Anthony ragged through the

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Speaker 1: mud an opening statement top mom Casey. Anthony's defense lawyer

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Speaker 1: says body that George Anthony Molesta Top Mom. They also

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Speaker 1: say her brother molessitor. I don't know the point of

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Speaker 1: this because not one piece of evidence was brought to

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Speaker 1: support that. When they say something like that an opening statement,

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Speaker 1: you expect there to be evidence, nothing, nothing, not one witness,

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Speaker 1: not anything. But back to that that day to suggest

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Speaker 1: that George had something to do with it. Meredith, do

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Speaker 1: you remember those jail house videos I played on h

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Speaker 1: l in where George and Cindy are sitting there begging

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Speaker 1: to ask, asking what happened, and Top Mom goes off

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Speaker 1: on him. You remember that if George Anthony knew what

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Speaker 1: happened and Top Mom knew what happened, that's her story

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Speaker 1: that Kelly died in the pool and George just threw

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Speaker 1: her body on the side of the road. Why didn't say,

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Speaker 1: Dad tell her what happened? Tell her she wants to

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Speaker 1: know what happened, Dad tell her, and that didn't happen, right,

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Speaker 1: And from what I understand, George really was um, this

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Speaker 1: hit him like a ton of bricks. Win right before

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Speaker 1: you know those opening statements, jose Bias, you know, said, hey, listen,

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Speaker 1: you're just gonna have to to take this when I'm

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Speaker 1: about to throw out and don't react to any of this, uh,

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Speaker 1: And and then he throws out this, you know, idea

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Speaker 1: that George molested Casey, and and he basically had to

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Speaker 1: sit there and take it just to protect his daughter.

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Speaker 1: But as you saw, as you mentioned, throughout the trial,

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Speaker 1: there was not much said about that, nothing said to

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Speaker 1: support next And I don't believe that was even brought

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Speaker 1: up at the end of the trial. It was one

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Speaker 1: of those things that was said early on, nothing to

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Speaker 1: support it. And from what I understand, there has been

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Speaker 1: evidence then and sent then to indicate that that was

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Speaker 1: a plausible situation within this family. If anything, it is

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Speaker 1: this family decided they were going to come together and

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Speaker 1: support Casey so that she didn't get the death penalty.

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Speaker 1: And at the end of the day, not only did

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Speaker 1: she not get a death penalty, she is free. And

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Speaker 1: I don't think anyone here, not in the Tampa market,

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Speaker 1: not in Orlando, anywhere in the state of Florida, believes

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Speaker 1: that she is not guilty of this crime. And amazingly,

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Speaker 1: when questioned UH in the past twelve months, actually it

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Speaker 1: was last spring break, Chryl McCollum, because I was in

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Speaker 1: an r V with the children, David and my mother

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Speaker 1: who no offense. That little ladies six year old, she's

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Speaker 1: weighs ninety pounds. She took up two thirds of the

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Speaker 1: r V. Okay, that's a whole another, that's a whole

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Speaker 1: another podcast. But Cheryl, that's when it happened that top

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Speaker 1: mom is questioned this last March and asked what really

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Speaker 1: happened that night. She goes, I honestly don't know Kelly

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Speaker 1: was alive and well when I last hour, I was

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Speaker 1: told she was fine. That's not what they said at trial.

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Speaker 1: They said a completely different story that George Anthony Kelly

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Speaker 1: had died in the swimming pool and George fished her out.

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Speaker 1: Her the grandfather fishes her out. That is the apple

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Speaker 1: of his eye. And he says, your mother is gonna

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Speaker 1: kill you. You know you're gonna get in trouble for this.

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Speaker 1: And he just puts the baby. No CPR, nothing like that,

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Speaker 1: doesn't call nine one one. He just sticks her in

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Speaker 1: the trash bag and throws her body by the side

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Speaker 1: of the road. Now does anybody believe that nobody can

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Speaker 1: believed anything this family has said? This is reasonable doubt

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Speaker 1: by confusion. George did it, No, the mama did it

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Speaker 1: know the work of the founder. Probably did it because

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Speaker 1: nobody was not draw Roy Kros into this. The good

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Speaker 1: samaritan that finds the body calls that's right. Though, you

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Speaker 1: are right. The defense tried to blame him at trial.

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Speaker 1: They tried to blame everybody. But you know, Cheryl McCollum,

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Speaker 1: you're I'm thrown off. I'm thrown off. Where are you

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Speaker 1: gonna be? Tonight Thursday March twenty nine, at eleven PM,

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Speaker 1: will be in front of my TV set watching Nate'sy

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Speaker 1: Grace take Dan Abrams to the wood shaded on A

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Speaker 1: and E and I gotta tell you something. There's a

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Speaker 1: live audience. Cheryl h I'm just so knocked out because

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Speaker 1: it's like a jury. I listened at the vent at

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Speaker 1: the Fulton County Courthouse one time to the jury deliberations.

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Speaker 1: I never did it again. They were having a huge

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Speaker 1: rug aspect there and I thought, oh, dear Lord in Heaven,

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Speaker 1: they're never going to reach your verdict at this rate.

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Speaker 1: They were arguing over the drink order. They were fighting

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Speaker 1: over the drink order. So what I'm saying the studio audience,

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Speaker 1: you never know. It's like with the jury, you never

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Speaker 1: know what they're gonna say they're there theories, their questions

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Speaker 1: that they come up with about this case. And guess

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Speaker 1: who we have, Cheryl. This's gonna mean a lot to

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Speaker 1: you because you and I have hung out at a

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Speaker 1: lot of jails. We have an inmate that became taughting

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Speaker 1: on Casey Anthony's best friend behind bars before she got out,

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Speaker 1: and what tought Mom said and did behind bars? And

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Speaker 1: I swear, Cheryl, if this woman had come on, I

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Speaker 1: know she would have been beat up on Cross because

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Speaker 1: she is an inmate. But if she had come on,

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Speaker 1: I swear I think we'd have a different verdict. Cheryl

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Speaker 1: from County right now, she's gonna be a money tree.

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Speaker 1: I cannot wait. I'm telling you, Robin Willinski joining me

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Speaker 1: W S B way in Robin. You know, I just

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Speaker 1: think what's lost on this all these years later Nancy,

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Speaker 1: this August, she would have been thirteen years old and

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Speaker 1: her life as a young teen. You know, we we

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Speaker 1: only remember that most famous picture of her that we

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Speaker 1: saw with her big eyes and her big beautiful smile

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Speaker 1: and all the little videos. But she would be almost thirteen,

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Speaker 1: and for all those years, top Mom has walked free,

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Speaker 1: walked free. Troice Laighton, Um, are you do you really

401
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Speaker 1: want to tell me you're the defense attorney out of

402
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Speaker 1: l A. How appropriate? Do you really want to tell

403
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Speaker 1: me that you don't think top Mom had anything to

404
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 1: do with her daughter's death. I think that the proper

405
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:28,119
Speaker 1: verdict was reached, the jury did the right thing. You

406
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Speaker 1: can't believe in the rule of law and Nancy and

407
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Speaker 1: not believe It's not what I asked you, Slaton, I

408
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Speaker 1: asked you what you thought. I think that it's I

409
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Speaker 1: asked you what you thought that she did it. I

410
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Speaker 1: think that it's possible that others did it, and that's

411
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Speaker 1: like pulling it too. How we work in our system

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Speaker 1: of justice. You need to have an abiding conviction of

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Speaker 1: the truth of the charge, and I do not have. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, what did you say? I dozed off there,

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Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Excellent State University. You know

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Speaker 1: I froze you out like five minutes ago, right after

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Speaker 1: you jumped up and said that chloroform came from fun guy.

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Speaker 1: I'm not ever forgetting that, Joe Scott, as long as

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Speaker 1: I live, well, good, because I'm just heating up right now. Nancy,

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Speaker 1: you're ready, okay? What do you What do you got

421
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 1: for me? Yeah, let me tell you this. Two words

422
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Speaker 1: junk science. The prosecutor in this case literally literally failed

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Speaker 1: this little child, miserably, miserably. The whole d a's office

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Speaker 1: failed this child. Just because you say the same word

425
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 1: over and over, it is not moving. No, no, no, okay,

426
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,159
Speaker 1: I got some more words for you. They paraded a

427
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 1: group of people in front of this jury, in front

428
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,400
Speaker 1: of this court, over and over and over and over.

429
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 1: You know, it's a case of it's a case of

430
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:55,400
Speaker 1: intellectual laziness, prosecutorial laziness. They wanted to see how much

431
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 1: stuff they could throw against the wall. You're talking about

432
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: root buying, you're gonna call that real science. You're talking

433
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 1: about smell test, You're gonna call that real science. And

434
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: what they've done, not only did they affect this little

435
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,959
Speaker 1: child's case going forward, they affected every case moving forward

436
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 1: after this relative to to forensic science. They cut the

437
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 1: head off the cure of the headache with this whole thing.

438
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,359
Speaker 1: It's a total nightmare in a sham. Now, I'm not

439
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 1: saying that this woman didn't kill her child. What I'm

440
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 1: saying is what I'm saying is the prosecutors got lazy.

441
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 1: They just decided to say, oh well, we'll just let

442
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,959
Speaker 1: science solve this thing for us. We're not gonna do

443
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,399
Speaker 1: really any real investigation here. We're just gonna let them

444
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 1: use a bunch of big words. And they failed. I

445
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 1: think they investigated out the ying Yang and Jess got Morgan.

446
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 1: I appreciate that sermon you just gave me. Everybody. Easter

447
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 1: is coming up, and I know where I'm gonna be.

448
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 1: But Jess got Morgan, this is a yes no answer. Okay,

449
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: one word. Do you believe top Mom Casey Anthony killed

450
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 1: her daughter? Yes, there he goes. Try to like him,

451
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum. I believe you're trying to interrupt Joe Scott

452
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 1: just like I am. Yeah, but you got to hear

453
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 1: me out. I'll try one. I agree with him completely,

454
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: but for a different reason. What they did in this

455
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,640
Speaker 1: case that was brilliant from the defense side. You literally

456
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,879
Speaker 1: left there not knowing was this a murder? Did she

457
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:36,399
Speaker 1: die accidentally and then was disposed illegally or did somebody

458
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 1: else do it? And we don't know the problem is

459
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 1: they charged her incorrectly. If they had charged her with

460
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 1: illegally disposing of a body. She'd be in prison right now.

461
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 1: But there's no proof that baby was murdered. It could

462
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 1: have literally been an accident by something she did illegal,

463
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 1: so that jury was almost left with no toy. Well wait, wait, wait,

464
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 1: let me under sand what you're saying, Cheryl, under your hypothesis,

465
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 1: what is the what accident is that? Because you sound

466
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 1: an awful lot like Belvin Perry, who's joining me tonight

467
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: on A and E the judge. Well, again, she could

468
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 1: have oded on something. She could have used the coloriform

469
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 1: to make her go to sleep, she could have brought her.

470
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: There's a lot of things she could have done. We

471
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 1: don't know. She wasn't shot, she wasn't sad. Well, I

472
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 1: can tell you this. I don't know what planet you

473
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 1: guys came from, Ashley Willcott. You look up how do

474
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: you make homemade chloroform on your computer? You have chloroform

475
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: in your trunk along with your daughter's hair. Your daughter's

476
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 1: missing thirty days. I've told you what happened when I

477
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: lost John David, when he snuck away uh in a store.

478
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: I went berserk. We had a whole lockdown in babies

479
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 1: or us. But she went thirty days. That night she

480
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: was over at her boyfriend's house, out at Blockbuster getting movies.

481
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 1: Kelly was nowhere to be seen. She was gone already

482
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 1: that night. She was dead. For the next thirty days,

483
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 1: she carried on like a she which from the s

484
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 1: s partying like mad and a push lebraun and go

485
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 1: go skirt out at a hot body contest at a

486
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 1: bar up on the stripper pole while her daughter was

487
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 1: quote missing. Never called police, never told her family, never

488
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 1: told her boyfriend. Nothing. That together tells me that the

489
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 1: duct tape are on this child's mouth and nose wrapped

490
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: around her hair still intact when they found the body.

491
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 1: Was no accident. Ashley, I agree, But here's why I'm perplexed.

492
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 1: Is there a suggestion by someone that chloroforming a child

493
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 1: to get them to be quiet or pass out or not,

494
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 1: you know, be as active, it can result in accidental death. No,

495
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 1: there's no accident about it. If this child was chloroformed,

496
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 1: then the child was murdered. That's what I'm arguing to

497
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 1: Belvin Perry tonight. He has the same theory that Cheryl

498
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 1: McCollum has, and I think Joe Scott Morgan has, that

499
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 1: there was an accident she died. That's called felony murder.

500
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: You chloroform a child or o d them on bena

501
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 1: dril and they die. That is an act. That's a

502
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 1: death resulting from a felony felony child abuse. That is

503
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: death penalty material. Meredith sincelo w f l A. Where

504
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: is Todd Mom now? So she is actually living in

505
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 1: northern Florida. She is living with a private investigator that

506
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 1: is associated with her former defense attorney, Jose bias Um.

507
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 1: By all accounts, she is working with that private investigator

508
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: to do computer history searches, ironically, to gather background information

509
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 1: on folks who have been accused of crimes. And in

510
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 1: her words, she is looking for the positive social media

511
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 1: trails that people leave behind because she felt like we

512
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 1: were only seeing the negative online history from her case.

513
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 1: So she is trying to work with investigators to find

514
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 1: the positive aspects of people who are charged with the crime.

515
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 1: So that's what she's doing. She's hanging out there doing

516
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 1: computer searches, taking photography, and uh, you know, by all accounts,

517
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: laying low. But it seems like she's she's leading a

518
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 1: pretty decent life um by all accounts, but you know,

519
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 1: she really can't go out and and have a public

520
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 1: interaction with people because she is notorious. Well, every time

521
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 1: I see us, I to of her, she's out at

522
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 1: a bar drinking, So I mean that's pretty public to me.

523
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 1: To Robin Willinsky, w SB, you heard what Meritus is

524
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 1: Hulo has to say. You know what we forgot? All

525
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: about the tattoo, Robert. It is all about the tattoo.

526
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 1: And you know, the book I wrote about the trial

527
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 1: is called The Beautiful Life question Mark. And two weeks

528
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 1: after the death of your daughter, you go out and

529
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 1: get a tattoo on your left shoulder that says della vita,

530
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:30,479
Speaker 1: which in Italian means beautiful life. Are you serious? It's

531
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 1: almost too much to take in Take a listen to

532
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 1: this the verdict as to the charge of first degree

533
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: murder verdict as to count one, we the jury find

534
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: the defendant not guilty. So say we all dated at Orlando,

535
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 1: Orange County, Florida, on this fifth day of July two

536
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 1: thousand and eleven, signed for a person as to the

537
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 1: charge of aggravated child abuse. Verdict does to count to

538
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: the the jury find the defendant not guilty, So say

539
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,120
Speaker 1: we all did it at Orlando Orange County floor to

540
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: this fifth day of July two thousand eleven, signed for

541
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 1: a person as to the charge of aggravated manslaughter of

542
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,280
Speaker 1: a child. Verdict does to count three, We the jury

543
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,760
Speaker 1: find the defendant not guilty. So say we all dated

544
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 1: at Orlando, Orange County, Florida, this fifth day of July

545
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 1: two thousand eleven, signed for a person as to the

546
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 1: charge of providing false information to law enforcement officer. Vert

547
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 1: as to count four, We the jury find the defendant

548
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 1: guilty of providing false information to a law enforcement officer.

549
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 1: Is charged in the indictment. So say we all dated Orlando,

550
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,760
Speaker 1: Orange County, Florida, this fifth day of July two thousand eleven,

551
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 1: signed for a person that's to the charge of providing

552
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 1: false information to law enforcement officer. Vertic doest count five.

553
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 1: We the jury find the defendant guilty of providing false

554
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 1: information to a law enforcement officer is charged in the indictment.

555
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:59,360
Speaker 1: So say we all dated Orlando, Orange County, Florida, this

556
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 1: fifth day of July two thousand eleven, signed for a

557
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,880
Speaker 1: person as to the charge of providing false information to

558
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 1: a law enforcement officer. Verdictest accounts six. We have the

559
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:13,439
Speaker 1: jury undefendant not guilt. I'm sorry. We the jury find

560
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 1: the defendant guilty of providing false information to a law

561
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 1: enforcement officers charged in the indictment. So say we all

562
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,280
Speaker 1: dated Orlando, Orange County, Florida, this fifth day of July

563
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 1: two thousand eleven signed for a person as to the

564
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: charge of providing false information to a law enforcement officer

565
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 1: Veric doest account seven. We have the jury undefendant guilty

566
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,880
Speaker 1: of providing false information to a law enforcement officers charged

567
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 1: in the indictment. So say we all dated Orlando, Orange County, Florida,

568
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 1: this fifth day of July two thou eleven signed for

569
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 1: a person Tonight join me on Grace versus Abrams, A

570
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:58,359
Speaker 1: and E eleven PM. Set your DVRs. Tell me what

571
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:03,959
Speaker 1: you think. Deny evidence and witnesses that were not heard

572
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:08,280
Speaker 1: by the jury, But if they had been, I believe

573
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 1: there would have been a different verdict. How many times

574
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: have I gone up and down the aisles at Walmart? Well,

575
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 1: the last thing I expect to see as a man

576
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:28,319
Speaker 1: brandishing a machete trying to steal my children in a Walmart.

577
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 1: But apparently that is exactly what happened. Special Guests joining

578
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 1: me right now, Lieutenant Brian McGregor from the Kenner, Louisiana

579
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 1: Police Department, Robert Willinski before I go to the lieutenant,

580
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 1: what happened? Well, this guy comes into the Walmart and Kennor,

581
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 1: I actually used to live in New Orleans, Dancy and

582
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,840
Speaker 1: have been to this Walmart. It's your standard Walmart, not

583
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 1: that far from the airport. And this guy comes in

584
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 1: and he has a backpack and and it's little do

585
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 1: we know that he has a machete and paper pepper

586
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:01,359
Speaker 1: spray and he come up to a lady who's got

587
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,720
Speaker 1: her toddler in the carte, and he tries to snatch

588
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 1: this kid, and then suddenly, when she starts screaming, he

589
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 1: pulls the machete out and all on these Walmart staffs,

590
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 1: people employees that come to help. And then the next

591
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:17,880
Speaker 1: thing you know, he's running to the exit and tries

592
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 1: to snatch an infant who's trapped in the car seat,

593
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 1: but can't get to that kid either because he's trapped

594
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 1: in It's more than I can take. In. Lieutenant Brian

595
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 1: McGregor with me. This guy, Billy Yo Boutier Herrera accused

596
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 1: of trying to kidnap two children at Walmart while moms

597
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 1: are in there with their children, not one, but two children.

598
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 1: And then we find out the guy is armed to

599
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 1: the teeth with a machete, a homemade ship or a

600
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 1: shank and pepper spray. What happened, lieutenant, and basically what

601
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 1: happened was on a Friday about two pm. You know,

602
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 1: the suspect he united Walmart through the garden Center. He

603
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,319
Speaker 1: proceeded to the Delhi section of the store. Once he

604
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:06,439
Speaker 1: arrived in the Delhi section of the story, you see

605
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:10,799
Speaker 1: a young mother with her child inside the grocery cart. Uh,

606
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 1: he engaged that mother began you can see that there's

607
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 1: some type of altercation between the mother and that suspect.

608
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:18,800
Speaker 1: Some of the other customers just thought it was a

609
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 1: domestic incident inside the store, so they didn't become involved

610
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:24,759
Speaker 1: at first, until that mother began asking for help, at

611
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 1: which time an asset protection employee it was right by

612
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 1: the door, saw what was going on. I saw that

613
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 1: he tried to grab the child from the grocery cart.

614
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,439
Speaker 1: You know, the mother grabbed her child, immediately took cover

615
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:37,879
Speaker 1: with the child and began fighting with him, at which

616
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 1: simed asset protection employee wound up, um, you know, engaging him.

617
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,760
Speaker 1: Once he engaged him, the suspect, you know, the suspect

618
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 1: ram back into the meat poultry section of the store.

619
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 1: Employees followed. At that time, he drew a machette started

620
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 1: swinging in at the employees and that at that time

621
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 1: they created a distance. And as he uh, they created distance,

622
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 1: he ran act towards the front of the store to

623
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 1: the Delhi section where another young mother was coming through

624
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 1: with her small infant child, and that child was trapped

625
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 1: into the seat at the top, and he tried to

626
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 1: grab that child. And again you saw another mother fighting

627
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 1: for a child as well. Um, you know that they

628
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 1: had an also that was inside the store as well,

629
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:20,879
Speaker 1: police officer. And then, um, you know, the suspect gets

630
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 1: hit from behind, pushes him forward away from that mom

631
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 1: and altercation continues until it gets to the front door

632
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:28,319
Speaker 1: and they put him down on the ground. Now, when

633
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:31,800
Speaker 1: he approached the first female you know, uh mother inside

634
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 1: the store for the first attempt, you can actually see

635
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 1: him patting his right side that you know that he

636
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 1: has a weapon on his right side. So that made

637
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:41,879
Speaker 1: any every indication that he was armed at that time.

638
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 1: Louisiana police say a stranger with a machete tries to

639
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 1: snatch children from their mother's inside a Walmart, and you

640
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 1: know the mom's fought to the finish. Not only that

641
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 1: Walmart employees jumped in to try to do their best,

642
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 1: but it was when the at least show up and

643
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 1: off duty police officer gets into the fray. And I

644
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 1: gotta tell you something out to you, Cheryl McCullum, I

645
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 1: hear bad things about cops every day of the week,

646
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 1: no matter what I'm talking about or where I am.

647
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 1: Open season on police, and you know what, I get it.

648
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,360
Speaker 1: I know there are some cops that have done horrible things.

649
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:28,720
Speaker 1: I know that, But here you've got an off duty

650
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 1: cop taking on a guy with a machete, a homemade

651
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 1: shank and pepper spray. What about that, Cheryl? He you

652
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 1: and I know that there's a couple of bad apples,

653
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 1: but they're bad teachers and preachers too, So you leave

654
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 1: those folks out. That this guy came to do a

655
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 1: lot of damage. She was prepared to disabled people with

656
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:53,359
Speaker 1: pepper spray and then hard them greatly with that machete.

657
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:56,319
Speaker 1: Not just one child, but two. But I would also

658
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 1: recommend they look at his computer searches. That's gonna lead

659
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 1: to him reason for doing it right there. Yeah, that's

660
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:05,399
Speaker 1: a question in my mind with me special guests from

661
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 1: Kinder Louisiana Lieutenant Brian McGregor on the police department there,

662
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 1: Lieutenant McGregor, any known motive. No, Initially, when a suspect

663
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 1: was taken into custody, refused identify himself, he failed to

664
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 1: cooperate with us when once we got him here to

665
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: the police department. UM. In addition to that, you know,

666
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 1: we know he's you know, UM had an ICE detainer

667
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 1: put on him at the time of his arrest as well,

668
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 1: you know, because once he's an illegal immigrant as well

669
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 1: well it has indications that he is. I mean, what

670
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 1: happens is, uh, we as a police department, we cooperate

671
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 1: with ICE, and once we run an individual through the

672
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,879
Speaker 1: National Crime Information Computer System, which is you know, ICE

673
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:48,479
Speaker 1: will determine at that time if they're going to place

674
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 1: a detainer on the suspect, and they actually put a

675
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 1: detainer on this suspect here. We also know that the

676
00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 1: suspect may possibly have some mental disorders, but we're unsure

677
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 1: that at the are good he can get treatment in jail,

678
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:06,839
Speaker 1: can you even imagine this to the one mom, one

679
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:11,400
Speaker 1: of the two mothers grabs her child as he is

680
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 1: trying to attack them with a machetti, grabs her child

681
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 1: and runs and hides behind the counter in the Delhi department,

682
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 1: and the Walmart employees risk their lives to intervene and

683
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:27,360
Speaker 1: save the mom and a child. I mean, Cheryl McCollum,

684
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 1: can you even imagine being crouched down behind the Delhi

685
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 1: department at Walmart holding your child I'm sure screaming their

686
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 1: head off. No, but let me tell you something, that's

687
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:41,759
Speaker 1: the very person just gonna, without question give their life up.

688
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,280
Speaker 1: So when it comes to a fight, that mama didn't hesitate,

689
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:49,320
Speaker 1: you know that, Nancy. Right now, Cheryl, police are asking

690
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 1: anybody that has cell phone video to please contact police

691
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:57,920
Speaker 1: Lieutenant Brian McGregor. If someone has a cellphone video and

692
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 1: I know that they do, what number should they die on?

693
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 1: Because called me directly at five oh four seven one

694
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 1: two two to five two. We know that there was

695
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 1: individuals inside the store that video of the incident that

696
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 1: didn't didn't become involved, but you know, we would like

697
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 1: to have that video, you know, in addition to what

698
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 1: we already had okay, hold on five oh four, what

699
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 1: oven to seven one two two to five two? So

700
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 1: we don't have any idea about what his motivation was, Lieutenant,

701
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 1: We don't we know when he entered his store he

702
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 1: had a duffel bag. I mean the duffel bag was actually, uh,

703
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 1: you know, large enough to put a child into. So

704
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 1: we don't know if that was his intent at that time.

705
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 1: You know, we have a lot of them. Where do

706
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:41,239
Speaker 1: you think he's from? Tonight shows indications from Florida, but

707
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:43,279
Speaker 1: you know he's from also from out of country. You know,

708
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 1: he did have a SO Security number, but you know

709
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 1: it might just be a work SO Security number only.

710
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:50,400
Speaker 1: So that's that part of it is under an investigation

711
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,799
Speaker 1: by ICE. You know, we're dealing with what happened here

712
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:56,720
Speaker 1: locally and through our District Attorney's office and the criminal

713
00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 1: charges that we filed against him here. Okay, everybody, put

714
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 1: on your seat belt. Troy Slatton, defense attorney joining us

715
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:05,400
Speaker 1: out of l A go ahead and hit me, Troy.

716
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 1: I think that the officer stated the defense for us.

717
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:13,840
Speaker 1: This is a man who had mental illness, He was

718
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 1: suffering from mental disease or defect to be pulling out

719
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 1: a machete in a walmart. That's not something that a

720
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:24,480
Speaker 1: normal person tries to do. He didn't try and steal

721
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 1: any of the products. Uh, he he didn't know what

722
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:32,239
Speaker 1: he was doing. He may have been kept up on drugs,

723
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 1: although I agree that's not a defense. Voluntary intoxication is

724
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:40,840
Speaker 1: not a defense. But if he was so mentally disturbed

725
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:43,399
Speaker 1: that he wasn't able to tell right from wrong, then

726
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 1: that is a defense. Well, he knew enough to lie

727
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 1: about who he was. And under your theory, Troy Slightighton,

728
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,720
Speaker 1: everybody that commits crime would be mentally ill with at

729
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 1: mental illness defense because what as you say, normal your word,

730
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 1: not mine. Person would commit a murder or a rape

731
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 1: or a child molestation. Nobody said normalcy is a litmus test.

732
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 1: Insanity is when you don't know right from wrong at

733
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 1: the time of the incident, and correct me if I'm wrong.

734
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 1: But Lieutenant Brian McGregor, he fought with these people to

735
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 1: get these children. He knew what he was doing was wrong.

736
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 1: Just because you're fighting and your body is engaging in

737
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 1: the fighter flight reflex doesn't mean that you have the

738
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:36,760
Speaker 1: wherewithal to be able to tell. Are you Lieutenant Brian McGregor,

739
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 1: because it sounds like it's choice Layton, the defense attorney

740
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:42,839
Speaker 1: out of l A Lieutenant Brian McGregor. I'm gonna apologize

741
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:46,319
Speaker 1: Force Layton because he obviously does not know enough to

742
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 1: apologize for himself. Lieutenant, the guy was let me see

743
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 1: your note, Jackie. She says he was together enough to

744
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:58,239
Speaker 1: make homemade weapons. Okay. Also, he fought when he was

745
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:00,880
Speaker 1: going to get caught, and then he knew enough not

746
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 1: to tell his true name because he knows he's in trouble.

747
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 1: That doesn't sound crazy to me. It's that crazy like

748
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 1: a Fox lieutenant, right. I mean, there's all indications to

749
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 1: us that he knows what he was doing at the

750
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:13,879
Speaker 1: time the incident occurred. He went up there, I gave

751
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 1: the first of other specific instructions, you know that she

752
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 1: was gonna listen or she would die. She you know,

753
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 1: he also threatened a child and so forth. And I

754
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:24,359
Speaker 1: don't believe the mental health defense on this at all.

755
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 1: I mean, there's no doubt from what we see on video,

756
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 1: and he was clearly aware of his surroundings what he

757
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 1: was doing in those surroundings when he drew the machete

758
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 1: on the victims. And so forth, and when he was

759
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:36,759
Speaker 1: trying to grab these children. So I don't believe that

760
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 1: you're right. You brought up a really good point, Lieutenant McGregor.

761
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 1: This is two pm broad daylight. This guy, Billy O

762
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:47,919
Speaker 1: Boudier Herrera goes up to a woman and her taught son,

763
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:51,320
Speaker 1: who was sitting in the grocery cart. Tells her she's

764
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,800
Speaker 1: going to die if she doesn't do what he says.

765
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:58,239
Speaker 1: The woman tried to walk away, but he blocked her path,

766
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 1: gripped the handle of his machine Eddie, and told the

767
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 1: woman that if he she did not listen to him,

768
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:08,319
Speaker 1: her two year old would also die. Well, you know

769
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 1: what the mom did. She grabbed her son and tried.

770
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:12,960
Speaker 1: He tried. He grabbed the sun, tried to pull him

771
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 1: out of the cart. The woman grabbed her son. It

772
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:19,319
Speaker 1: was a tug of war with the boy. She gets him.

773
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 1: She's fighting with Boutier Herrera. She wrestles her two year

774
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 1: old boy away from him and runs to the Delhi

775
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 1: department and hides in the floor of the walmart. Oh,

776
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 1: he doesn't stop then, Joseph Scott Morgan. He still wants

777
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 1: that boy, but he tries to get another taught as well,

778
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:42,880
Speaker 1: possible motive. Joe Scott. Yeah, I think he went in

779
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:46,480
Speaker 1: with specific intent. Uh, Nancy, Why didn't he go into

780
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 1: an open field and swing his machete around because there's

781
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:51,760
Speaker 1: no people there. He went into a place of business,

782
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:54,400
Speaker 1: like you said, in the middle of the day, looking

783
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:58,360
Speaker 1: to force someone to leverage someone, even with a small child, Nancy,

784
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:01,520
Speaker 1: threatening to take that child life if they didn't comply.

785
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:05,800
Speaker 1: What I'm amazed by here is that the police officer

786
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 1: that was off duty, and also those Walmart employees did

787
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:11,560
Speaker 1: something that the police try to do all the time,

788
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:14,920
Speaker 1: and that is de escalate the situation. And this is

789
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:16,880
Speaker 1: a tough environment to do it in you're talking to.

790
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:20,280
Speaker 1: Everybody knows the size of a Walmart. These places are vast.

791
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 1: This guy scampered away to one area and then another area,

792
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 1: and they finally were able to tackle him and some

793
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 1: do him. He went in there to do great harm

794
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:32,360
Speaker 1: to somebody. This is your old Walmart. You know exactly

795
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 1: where the Delhi Department is. Joe Scott. Yeah, Yeah, I'm

796
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,279
Speaker 1: from Jefferson Parish. Originally started my career down there as

797
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 1: a death investigator with a coroner's office, So yeah, I'm

798
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:43,520
Speaker 1: very familiar with this area. This is a high traffic area.

799
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,239
Speaker 1: You've got people in and out of there, and you know, look,

800
00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 1: people just go about their daily lives, conducting their business.

801
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:51,880
Speaker 1: Who who's gonna walk into a place and just expect

802
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:54,960
Speaker 1: it some uh, some person like this is gonna walk

803
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 1: up and say, look, I'm gonna kill you if you

804
00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 1: don't do specifically what I say. How horrific is this?

805
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:05,440
Speaker 1: You know, Cheryl McCollum, Director of the Cold Case Institute,

806
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 1: crime scene investigator, Cheryl, everybody is dancing around my question motivation.

807
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 1: First of all, I can tell you it's not anything.

808
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:18,879
Speaker 1: Nothing good. There's no good motivation here. Number one, I'm

809
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:21,680
Speaker 1: wondering if he was not going to try to sell

810
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:25,359
Speaker 1: the children to get the money molest them. I mean,

811
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:27,879
Speaker 1: those are the top two things I could think of, Ryl.

812
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 1: Those are the top two. What reads that people take

813
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:32,759
Speaker 1: young children like that is to ntom them, which this

814
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:35,879
Speaker 1: doesn't appear to be the case. To thancually harm them

815
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 1: and then kill them um or raise them as their own,

816
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:42,400
Speaker 1: which that doesn't seem the case. So nothing good was

817
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 1: gonna come. And this person was uber determined to take

818
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:49,200
Speaker 1: a child because when the first one failed, he went

819
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 1: to the second one. And I'm going to say again,

820
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:54,239
Speaker 1: even if those mental illness, he has not tried to

821
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:57,360
Speaker 1: hide his motivation. If you can find a cell phone

822
00:49:57,440 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 1: or a computer, it will be there and it will

823
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:03,280
Speaker 1: be very With our special guest, Lieutenant Brian McGregor weighing

824
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 1: in as we wait for justice to unfold, Guys, please

825
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 1: join me tonight on an E March twenty nine, Thursday,

826
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:20,440
Speaker 1: eleven pm Eastern Grace versus Abrams. I'm so blessed to

827
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 1: have landed at A and E and I want to

828
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:28,280
Speaker 1: thank you for joining me tonight. Nancy Grace Crime Stories,

829
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:30,920
Speaker 1: signing off, goodbye friend,