1 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:06,960 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 2: Well, our next guest follows the US economy, really the 3 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 2: global economy has for decades. Weigh in on the trends 4 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:16,799 Speaker 2: that describe us and divide us financially, economically, and so 5 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 2: much more. Let's get to the interview this hour with 6 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 2: us as Nobel Laureate economist and Columbia professor Joseph Stieglitz. 7 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 2: He was an economic advisor to presidents, including chair of 8 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 2: the Council of Economic Advisors that was during the Clinton administration. 9 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 2: Former Chief economist at the World Bank, He's written numerous 10 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:36,159 Speaker 2: books and research papers. His latest book, The Road to Freedom, 11 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 2: Economics and the Good Society. He joins us here in 12 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 2: New York City. Professor Stieglitz, So great to be talking 13 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 2: with you once again. It's been a while, but great 14 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 2: to have you here, and we want to talk about 15 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 2: the book. But we would be remiss not to ask 16 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 2: you your take on today's economic environment and the stickiness 17 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:55,959 Speaker 2: of inflation. What is the smart conversation that you think 18 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 2: we should all be having here at Bloomberg when it 19 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 2: comes to today's US economic environs. 20 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 3: From the point of view of economics. 21 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: Having two and a half or even three percent inflation 22 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: is not a big deal. 23 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:11,959 Speaker 3: You know, the two. 24 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 1: Percent target was pulled out of thin air. It was 25 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: not based on economic science. What we want to be 26 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 1: sure of is that we don't have runaway inflation. And 27 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 1: inflation has clearly been tamed, it's been brought down. It's stable. 28 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 1: It fluctuates from month to month, but it is not 29 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: a major problem. We should be focusing on other things, 30 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: continuing economic growth, making sure that all Americans share in 31 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,960 Speaker 1: that growth. Those are the kinds of things that we 32 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 1: ought to be thinking more about. 33 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 4: So, Professor Stieglitz, should the Fed abandon the two percent 34 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 4: inflation goal? Should they have a different inflation goal, a 35 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 4: different metric that they should be held accountable to. 36 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 3: Yes, I think they should. 37 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: I think they should be talking about being within a 38 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: range to maybe three, three and a half four percent. 39 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:09,799 Speaker 1: You know, there's actually some economic science that says, especially 40 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: in a time of major structural change such as we're 41 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 1: going through, having a little higher inflation actually is helpful 42 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 1: in realocating resources in the presence of downward nominal rigidities 43 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: of wages, because what guides the movement of resources from 44 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 1: one place to another is relative wages, and if some 45 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: wages are sticky downward, you want other wages to go 46 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:42,519 Speaker 1: up enough to move labor, and that means you're going 47 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 1: to have to have more inflation. So actually a little 48 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: higher inflation is actually good for the economy. 49 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:53,679 Speaker 2: Do you think the FEDS management of the economy has 50 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 2: been a good one in terms of policy? 51 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 3: Quite? Frankly, no, put it bluntly. 52 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 1: Let's go back to when inflation broke out after the 53 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: pandemic and the Russian invasion of Ukraine. The question was 54 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:16,359 Speaker 1: what was the cause, the primary cause of the inflation. 55 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:17,679 Speaker 3: It was unambiguous. 56 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: It was the pandemic and war related interruptions in supply 57 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:27,959 Speaker 1: chains and rising prices caused by shortages of oil and food. 58 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 1: It was demand shifts. People wanted to live in different places, 59 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: and that meant housing prices went up where there was 60 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: a scarcity, but didn't go down as much where there 61 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 1: was where people didn't want to live, like in. 62 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 3: Parts of New York. 63 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 1: Raising interest rates actually impedes the ability. 64 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 3: To the economy to respond to that kind of. 65 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: Structural To that that kind of challenge, we needed to 66 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: build more houses in the places where there was a scarcity, 67 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 1: and having higher interest rates actually works, makes it more difficult. 68 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 1: They also have a modeled economy that's based on competition. 69 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,840 Speaker 1: That might have been true some time ago, but we 70 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: have an economy with a lot of market power at 71 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:27,720 Speaker 1: firms are trading off. If they raise their prices, they 72 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 1: get more profits today, they lose profits in the future, 73 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 1: and in that trade off is when you raise the 74 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: interest rate, they value those future losses less and they 75 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:40,599 Speaker 1: were induced to raise their prices more. 76 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 3: So margins go up. 77 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 1: And a marked aspect of the inflation that we've just 78 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 1: been through is that markets have increased enormously. 79 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 4: Hey, Professor Stieglitz, I just wanted to speaking of the FED, Carol, 80 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 4: I know you would a well. 81 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 2: One one thing before we have a bigger, broader question, 82 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 2: and it's certainly been a bigger jump in on Well, 83 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,239 Speaker 2: what do you think then we should be cutting rates already, 84 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:04,600 Speaker 2: that we're behind the curve right now? 85 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 1: Yes, I think I think the risks are asymmetric. I 86 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 1: think with Europe already slowing down in recession, we don't 87 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: know where. 88 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 3: China is going to be going. 89 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:22,919 Speaker 1: I think proudents would have us going back to a 90 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: more normal infrast rate. The higher interest rates are really 91 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 1: not going to be taming inflation. 92 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 3: That that model was wrong. 93 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 1: In another way, they dramatically had said that we're going 94 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: to need five percent of inflation for five percent unemployment 95 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 1: for some time in order to get inflation down. 96 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 3: They were absolutely wrong. We got inflation down. 97 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: Where in a period where we kept unemployment relatively low. 98 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 3: So their analysis of the economy was just off. 99 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 1: And meanwhile, they have put at risk our banking system 100 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: and we had a problem in sell Compalty Bank partly 101 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: because of the enormous changes in terms structure which their 102 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: policies led to. And we're facing a deck crisis in 103 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 1: the developing countries and emerging markets. So there's enormous one 104 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 1: sided risk. 105 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 3: I believe in the policies that they've been pursuing well. 106 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 4: On the FED, Professor Stieglitz, I got to ask you 107 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 4: about this Wall Street Journal report that broke last night 108 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 4: that said how former Trump administration officials are coming up 109 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 4: with plans to take on the independence of the Federal 110 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 4: Reserve essentially at one end of the spectrum, even allowing 111 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 4: if President Trump gets re elected him to weigh in 112 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 4: on FED policy when it comes to interest rates. Talk 113 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 4: a little bit about your reaction to if this were 114 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,359 Speaker 4: to come to fruition, how important the independence of the 115 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 4: FED is, and if that would really put at risk 116 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,919 Speaker 4: the model of the independence of the US financial system. 117 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: Well, I think Trump is himself a major argument why 118 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:01,280 Speaker 1: you want to have de pendings. 119 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:03,040 Speaker 3: Of the FED. 120 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 1: You don't want somebody who doesn't understand monetary policy, who would, 121 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: uh put at risk the long run stability of the 122 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: economy for the short term electoral advantage of having a 123 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 1: hot economy right before an election. That's precisely why there 124 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: is an argument for independence. So you know, I believe 125 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: in the accountability of the FED. Uh, it is a 126 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 1: public institution. Uh. 127 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 3: We had previous chairmen of the FED. We're very cognizant 128 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 3: of that. 129 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 1: I remember Paul Voker saying Congress created us and Congress 130 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: can uncreate us. So there is a kind of accountability 131 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 1: that responsible heads of the FED understand. But we certainly 132 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: don't want Donald Trump to be running monetary policy. All right. 133 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 2: We do want to into your book because you've been 134 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 2: thinking a lot about the meaning of freedom, and I 135 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 2: think we throw the word abown a lot. 136 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 3: I think. 137 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 2: The folks who created the United States are founding fathers 138 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 2: thought about freedom a lot and the difference though between 139 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 2: what that really means, and maybe it comes down to, 140 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 2: as you think about it, the values that we all 141 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 2: have in society tell us about how we need to 142 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 2: kind of maybe redefine freedom and what it means in 143 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 2: terms of citizens more broadly and generally, as well as 144 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 2: economically in terms of their success. 145 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:42,679 Speaker 1: Sure, you know, I approached the issue obviously as an economist, 146 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 1: and as an economist we think of freedom is free 147 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 1: to do what you can do. 148 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 3: What are the choices that you can make. 149 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: Somebody who is at the point of starvation doesn't really 150 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: have any freedom. 151 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 3: He has to do what he can to survive. 152 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: And expanding the set of choices that an individual is 153 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: available is a. 154 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 3: Way of saying that he has more freedom. 155 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 1: And here there are a couple of ideas I put 156 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: forward in my book. 157 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 3: The first is. 158 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: That in our integrated urban twenty percentury economy, one person 159 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: does the expansion of his freedom may lead to less 160 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: freedom of others. Isaiah Berlin, the great Oxford philosopher, put 161 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 1: it this way. He said, freedom for the wolfs has 162 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: often meant death for the sheep, and in the context 163 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 1: of the US, for instance, freedom to carry in AK 164 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 1: forty seven means that people will die, and it means 165 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: that our school children are not free from fear. 166 00:09:58,760 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 3: They have to. 167 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,319 Speaker 1: Learn how to what to do if a gunman comes 168 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: into the classroom and teachers have to go to school 169 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: worried about whether they'll be attacked. Freedom not to wear 170 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: a mask is exposed, taking away the freedom of others 171 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 1: to live. So we have to balance these freedoms. There 172 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 1: are trade offs. Many cases, those trade offs are easy. 173 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 1: Freedom to pollute takes away the freedom to have somebody 174 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: with asthma to even live, let alone the freedom of. 175 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 3: All of us to live on our planet. 176 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 1: So there, I think we have to constrain the freedom 177 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 1: of the polluters and the freedom of exploiters. 178 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 2: So we're talking with Joseph Stieglitz, Nobel Laurate economist, Professor 179 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 2: of economics at Columbia University, and we're talking about his 180 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 2: new book, The Road to Freedom, Economics and the Good Society. 181 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 2: All Right, So if we think Professor Stieglitz the idea 182 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 2: of freedom, so it's maybe more inclusive or it's a 183 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 2: broader definition, how do we do that within society? With corporations, 184 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 2: the need to be profitable for those we are in 185 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 2: earning season. We look at companies and their reports, and 186 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 2: that's how we kind of measure them grade them. What 187 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 2: does government need to do? How can we maybe be 188 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 2: better if you will for more? 189 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: Well, first, let me emphasize that in the world I've 190 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:38,199 Speaker 1: just described, there's an important role for regulations. Corporations often 191 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:41,559 Speaker 1: don't like that, but we have to remember the purpose 192 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: of our economy is to improve the lives and live 193 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: goods of our citizens. 194 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 3: It's not the other way around. 195 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: That the economy is supposed to serve society, not the 196 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 1: other way around. 197 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:59,319 Speaker 3: There's another aspect. 198 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: Regulations can't actually expand the freedom of all of us. 199 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 1: Think about stop likes. If we don't have stop likes, 200 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: we have good luck. None of us have the freedom 201 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 1: to move. Stop likes ors are a little bit of 202 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 1: a coercion, mean that I have to take turns, but 203 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: by taking turns, we all have more freedom. And that 204 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: basic idea extends much more broadly. People don't like to 205 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:33,320 Speaker 1: pay taxes. That's they often feel kind of coercion. But 206 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 1: when those tax revenues are used productively, like they were 207 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: to invest in the Internet and invest in the m 208 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 1: r any platform that led to the vaccine against COVID nineteen, 209 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 1: that expands our freedom to do. And so we have 210 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: to look at this and I would say, in a 211 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: little bit more holistic way, Well. 212 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:57,199 Speaker 4: I want to go to your taxes point, because I'm 213 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 4: curious if you could wave a magic wand fplement some 214 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:03,680 Speaker 4: sort of tax policy here in the US, what would 215 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 4: it be. How could you reinvent it? Would you broaden 216 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 4: the tax space, would you lean more on corporate taxes, 217 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 4: would you tax wealth more? What, in your opinion would work? 218 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 3: Well, I begin by. 219 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: Analyzing what are some of the key problems on our 220 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:23,319 Speaker 1: society basis, And one of them is inequality and one 221 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 1: of the reasons. And a second problem is the growth 222 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: of market power, which has been enormous in the last 223 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: few decades. 224 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 3: And those two are obviously linked. 225 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: When you have more market power, the fruits of that 226 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: market power go to those at the top. We also 227 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:48,559 Speaker 1: have more economists called monopsity power. Firms have market power 228 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: over workers and have driven down their wages significantly below 229 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:58,439 Speaker 1: a competitive level. So I want to have more anti 230 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:03,439 Speaker 1: trust policy, more competitive labor market policies, but. 231 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 3: That can take time. 232 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: Meanwhile, there's a lot of monopoly rents, and so part 233 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 1: of what I would begin by doing is increasing corporate 234 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 1: conflicts taxes, which are not a tax on return to capital, 235 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: they are tax on this monopoly profits. I'd also like 236 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: to have environmental taxes firms that are engaged, including the environment, 237 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: on to pay for the damage that they're doing. Remarkably, America, 238 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: those at the top pay a lower percentage of their 239 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 1: taxes than those down below. Even some of our richest 240 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 1: people have commented that they think that's right wrong. 241 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 2: We can I ask you, like on a day when 242 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 2: we're looking at a company, and forgive me, I'm just 243 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 2: singling out because it popped. Shares of Alphabet are now 244 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 2: a two trillion dollar market cap company this week, you 245 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 2: know next week. 246 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 3: Last week. 247 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 2: We've been obsessed with, certainly what we call the Magnificent seven, 248 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 2: the big megacap technic companies. 249 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 3: They're very big. 250 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 2: Amazon, we talked with an author recently, so entrenched certainly 251 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 2: in our world, and you think about their reach. Are 252 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 2: these the companies the individuals, whether it's an Amazon, whether 253 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 2: it's a Meta, whether it's an Alphabet that you think 254 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 2: you talk about growth of market power? Is it too 255 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 2: much at this point in your view that something needs 256 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 2: to be done to rain them in or do the 257 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 2: benefits outweigh the downside here, Well, they do. 258 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 1: Give benefits, but they have a lot of downsides. They 259 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 1: need to be better regulated. Europe has done a better 260 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 1: job of regulating with them. The digital harms are quite 261 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: obvious and have been by now well documented. But talking 262 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: narrowly now about market I think they we ought to 263 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 1: do what we can to limit their market power, but 264 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: tax the fruits of that market power, the revenues that 265 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: they get at a much higher rate. You know, if 266 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: you ask the question, would Jeff Bezos or the founders 267 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: of Google or Zuperbird stop working if we tax their 268 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 1: wealth in a way, say a three percent you know, 269 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: so any answer is obviously they would continue to work. 270 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 4: Do you think that they would leave the United States? 271 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: Well, we have imposed what we call an exit tax 272 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 1: that those with a lot of wealth and don't feel 273 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: who don't feel loyalty in the United States. 274 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 3: Can leave. 275 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: We allowed them to leave, but they have to pay 276 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:04,159 Speaker 1: tax that represents attacks on the groups of the wealth 277 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: that they've accumulated while they've been in the United States. 278 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:12,440 Speaker 1: And that tax is significant, and it is a deterrent, 279 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,640 Speaker 1: and if it's not, it may be that we ought to. 280 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 3: Consider raising that tax. 281 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: But I don't think people like at Zuckerberg Musk are 282 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 1: going to leave the United States. They realize the benefits 283 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: of American citizenship. 284 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 4: We're speaking right now with Professor Joseph Stieglitz, Nobel Laurate Economists. 285 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,439 Speaker 4: He's a professor of economics at Columbia University. He's got 286 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 4: a new book out, The Road to Freedom, Economics and 287 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:41,239 Speaker 4: the Good Society. Professor, as I mentioned, you are up 288 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:43,400 Speaker 4: at Columbia. You've been there for a long time. We've 289 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 4: been watching everything that's been happening on the campus there, 290 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 4: as well as campuses including USC, Yale, MIT. The list 291 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 4: continues to go on here in the United States, as 292 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 4: we've seen pro Palestinian protests and encampments take over some 293 00:17:55,840 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 4: of these campuses. Freedom in the academic context, how are 294 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:02,679 Speaker 4: you looking at the protest protests and the context of 295 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 4: freedom of speech. 296 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 3: That's a good question. 297 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: I mean, person, let me comment that up where my 298 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 1: office is, which is the Manhattanville campus. 299 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 3: Uh, things are. 300 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:19,120 Speaker 1: Very quiet at the Business school at the Business School, 301 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:21,159 Speaker 1: but you've been. 302 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 2: That campus a long time and you've seen different protests 303 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 2: over the years, and it seemed to be I was 304 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 2: there when there were protests, and it seems like that's 305 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,920 Speaker 2: what students are should be doing, exploring and pushing back 306 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 2: when they don't feel like things are right. But what 307 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:36,920 Speaker 2: is what is the what is it does protests and 308 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 2: the context of freedom of speech. 309 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 3: So I agree with you very strongly. 310 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 1: I'm actually happy the students are engaged in the world, 311 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: you know, That's that's one of the things I probably 312 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 1: kept them to be interested in the world, and also 313 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: to reason about the world, to come to understand it, 314 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: and to debate how how could should things be changed? 315 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 3: So that's a good thing. 316 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 1: And in my own life, protests have played a very 317 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 1: important role. 318 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 3: Back in nineteen. 319 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: Sixty three, I was down there in the march in 320 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 1: Washington with Martin Luther King, and you know that speech 321 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 1: he gave about I have a dream has been a 322 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:33,639 Speaker 1: lifelong inspiration to me. So even civil disobedience in certain 323 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:40,719 Speaker 1: circumstances can be an important mechanism for social change. We 324 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:44,920 Speaker 1: have a special responsibility, of course, to make sure on 325 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: our campus that all views get heard, that we can 326 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:56,679 Speaker 1: have civil debates, and so on the one hand, academic 327 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 1: freedom is really important, and I'm really took offense to 328 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: Speaker Johnson coming up to our campus and calling for 329 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 1: the resignation of our presidents. 330 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 3: I hadn't seen anything. 331 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 1: Like that, maybe since the HUAC hearings the House on 332 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 1: American Activities Committee back with McCarthy in the fifties. 333 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 3: I mean, that kind of. 334 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 1: Direct interference in academia is just unheard of. And we 335 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:31,159 Speaker 1: know some of the Republicans have been trying to undermine 336 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 1: universities because universities teach children how to our young our youngsters, 337 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:40,919 Speaker 1: our young men and women how to think, and a 338 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: lot of people don't like that idea that they should 339 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 1: be thinking for themselves. But at the same time, we 340 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 1: have to create on campus a community where all voices 341 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 1: are heard, and I think we're actually working very much 342 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 1: towards that. 343 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:05,400 Speaker 3: There were only a few people. 344 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 1: Raising problems, and I think having outside a takers like 345 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,159 Speaker 1: the speaker is not hopeful. 346 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 2: We're going to leave it on that note. We always 347 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 2: appreciate hearing you talk about hearing from voices. We always 348 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:27,360 Speaker 2: appreciate hearing from you. Professor Stieglitz, Thank you so much, 349 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 2: Nobel lorid Economist Columbia professor Joseph Stieglitz. 350 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 3: Here in New York City. 351 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 2: Check out his book his latest book, The Road to Freedom, 352 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 2: Economics and the Good Society. Really appreciate us spending some 353 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 2: time with you.