Speaker 1: This is Let's Be Clear with Shannon Doherty. Hi, everyone,
Speaker 1: welcome to another episode of Let's Be Clear with Shannon Doherty.
Speaker 1: And I have a very special surprise for everyone, which
Speaker 1: is the lovely Kevin Smith.
Speaker 2: This episode is Let's be Marats.
Speaker 1: Let's be Marats.
Speaker 2: How are you?
Speaker 3: I'm good?
Speaker 2: Let me paint the picture for the kids at home.
Speaker 2: Like you know, I've been around now I've been doing
Speaker 2: this is a January of twenty twenty four marks thirty
Speaker 2: years that I have been in the business, So thirty
Speaker 2: years from the moment Clerks played at Sundance. Look, it
Speaker 2: only took me forty five seconds to say Clerks, I
Speaker 2: have been around. That's I only say that just so
Speaker 2: I can tell you like I have experience not just
Speaker 2: this business, but in this town and specifically in the
Speaker 2: dwellings of those who work within our industry. That is
Speaker 2: to say, I have been in some really nice houses
Speaker 2: in my day. This is a staggering palace to oneself,
Speaker 2: a shrine to the hard work put in by a
Speaker 2: little girl who I remember seeing in Ron Howard's movie
Speaker 2: Night Shift. Mugger.
Speaker 3: Mugger.
Speaker 4: Yeah, from the little girl who worked with Wilford Brimley.
Speaker 4: If Wilford Brimley could see where you how you live,
Speaker 4: oh my god, he would be like, I should ask
Speaker 4: for a lot more money from them diabetes commercials or
Speaker 4: or whatever it was.
Speaker 2: That's right. This place is staggering. This is just go.
Speaker 2: Are you allowed to curse on your product? Fucking gorgeous?
Speaker 2: You should see this kitchen. You might see it behind
Speaker 2: her and you're not. It's not even doing a justice.
Speaker 2: I pulled in and I was like, holy shit, this
Speaker 2: is what I need to know. Is this nine O
Speaker 2: two one oh money or charmed money? Because I know
Speaker 2: it as.
Speaker 3: Money it was.
Speaker 4: If this was Marat's money, I too would live in
Speaker 4: the taj Mahal. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think this was charmed money.
Speaker 2: This charm money.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a combination of nine two and oh
Speaker 3: and charmed money.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about that, because you like had a show
Speaker 2: two shows in an era when like residuals were like
Speaker 2: a thing.
Speaker 1: No, when residuals were terrible even they were bad then,
Speaker 1: because yeah terrible now yeah, so nine O two and
Speaker 1: oh it wasn't like a full fledged.
Speaker 3: Network yet Fox.
Speaker 2: It was the beginning.
Speaker 1: It was the beginning. So our residuals were always extremely low.
Speaker 1: I mean, now I think it's like, you know, for
Speaker 1: an entire season, they'll send me a residual for like
Speaker 1: seventeen dollars. Are you kidding?
Speaker 2: That's that's what happened to nine oh two and oh kids.
Speaker 2: I was there for nine oh two and oh. I
Speaker 2: watched nine oh two one oh in quick stop behind
Speaker 2: the counter before we made Clerks, while we were making
Speaker 2: clerks and whatnot, so much so that when I make
Speaker 2: my second movie and Shannon's in it, like that was
Speaker 2: an absolute sign that I'd made it. Like I watched
Speaker 2: this person like a year ago, I was watching you
Speaker 2: on TV at my job, and a year later my
Speaker 2: job was to hang out with you in a fucking mall.
Speaker 2: I was like, this rules so that I was there
Speaker 2: when that show broke and to say, to try to
Speaker 2: explain to people how big that phenomenon is, you would
Speaker 2: have to point to like the Swifties and shit like
Speaker 2: that at this point, and maybe people are you're over
Speaker 2: saying it bullshit. This nine O two one oh was
Speaker 2: like literally everywhere, and Shannon was like everywhere as well.
Speaker 2: They hunted you, they did like constantly, Like Shannon was
Speaker 2: in every piece of media. If there was an internet,
Speaker 2: you would have broken it multiple times. Yeah, I'm not
Speaker 2: even speaking out of school. You could probably go on
Speaker 2: the internet and fucking go back and see. But Shannon
Speaker 2: was like the first person like the proto influencer, but
Speaker 2: wasn't an influencer. She actually is an actress and had
Speaker 2: a career and shood. But the person that they focused
Speaker 2: on your personal life almost more than your performances.
Speaker 1: Not even almost one hundred percent, focused more on my
Speaker 1: personal life than and look, you know, to be fair,
Speaker 1: I gave them a lot to focus on.
Speaker 2: Was also fun back in those days. And as much
Speaker 2: as headline after headline was like Doherty punches out motherfucker
Speaker 2: with camera Doherty and Judd Nelson and that was like
Speaker 2: a dream pairing because it's like, oh my god, the
Speaker 2: girl from Heather's and the boy from Breakfast Club, like
Speaker 2: just as an outsider from that, from that world and
Speaker 2: then entering the world and working with you as a
Speaker 2: good temporary was just so like that. That to me
Speaker 2: was the first syndication like, oh my god, I've I've
Speaker 2: made it. My question is this and we'll get back
Speaker 2: to this fucking majestic estate that apparently Charmed pay for it,
Speaker 2: So it wasn't Charmed residuals. It was like the Charmed
Speaker 2: per episode.
Speaker 1: It was I mean, listen, it was a combination of
Speaker 1: stuff because.
Speaker 2: There were residuals on Charms.
Speaker 3: Yes, that's where the money profit participation.
Speaker 2: So is that does that still exist? Yeah? So whenever
Speaker 2: they sell Charm you get a piece. Yes, you're lucky.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: So wait, how deep is that you attached to every
Speaker 2: season of Charmed or just the ones you're in.
Speaker 1: Supposed to be every season, so that you definitely got.
Speaker 2: Paid for the ones you're oh for sure, and they
Speaker 2: sold that fucker everywhere.
Speaker 1: And it continues to like you know, the thing about Charmed.
Speaker 1: It's what's interesting is that I think, uh, if you
Speaker 1: if you put them together right in the same time frame,
Speaker 1: I think nine was still the bigger show.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I would agree with that. Charm definitely had
Speaker 2: a charm well, and it also seems like it's had
Speaker 2: a longer shelf life. Maybe I'm wrong.
Speaker 1: Our I think our fans are probably the most loyal,
Speaker 1: dedicated Sam.
Speaker 2: You know number one is right. So here I follow
Speaker 2: you from like your early career like up till mal
Speaker 2: Rats and then I'm busy making movies. But the guy
Speaker 2: who's not as busy making movies and there's a lot
Speaker 2: of time to watch TV and has literally watched Charmed
Speaker 2: No Bullshit from fucking season one to the end and
Speaker 2: then starts again and loops back no less than twenty
Speaker 2: five times the course of the last ten years A
Speaker 2: long Jason mues.
Speaker 1: Are you serious.
Speaker 2: Such a fucking man, I'm not overstating it. By being
Speaker 2: in front of you. You could go listen to him
Speaker 2: talk anywhere in public. He doesn't know the Smith's song
Speaker 2: how soon is now? He just knows the theme Charmed,
Speaker 2: so when it comes on, He's like, fucking charm bitch,
Speaker 2: And I'm like, well, yes, but it pre exists Charmed
Speaker 2: as well. But he like lived and still to this day. Now,
Speaker 2: you you lived in a maybe twenty four to forty
Speaker 2: eight hour news cycle. If you did something at fucking
Speaker 2: the China Club or whatever fuck or what was that place,
Speaker 2: the formosa, you had about twenty four hours forty eight
Speaker 2: hours for the rest of the world might find out
Speaker 2: you lived in a pre TMZ world. Yes, who covered you?
Speaker 2: Who was your nemesis? Who was the outfit?
Speaker 3: The National Inquirer that was the one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so wild because they don't I mean, correct me
Speaker 2: if I'm wrong. I don't want to pick any fights.
Speaker 2: But they just don't seem to have a presence or
Speaker 2: an existence now like they used to.
Speaker 1: Right, they used to be huge. They were like it
Speaker 1: was Star magazine and National Acquirer.
Speaker 2: So they were the predators. They were the ones where
Speaker 2: it's just like, get me a fucking photograph of her
Speaker 2: punching you, and holy shit, will run it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: But the great thing about that time, to a certain degree,
Speaker 1: was that you were able to sort of say to yourself,
Speaker 1: you know, okay, great, so fine, it's in the press,
Speaker 1: and that sucks. It's in a newspaper, but that newspaper
Speaker 1: you knew was going to be, you know, lining a
Speaker 1: cat litter box and forgotten. Now you google my name
Speaker 1: and it all lives there forever.
Speaker 2: At this point is any of it? Are you ever? Like, well,
Speaker 2: I'm fucking glad because it adds to the mythology. No,
Speaker 2: you were like you were like, if I go back
Speaker 2: in time out of race, yeah shit, would you?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: I would?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 2: Like that's to me as part of like the DNA
Speaker 2: of who you are. You have the unpleasant, you know,
Speaker 2: business of having to grow up in front of people,
Speaker 2: like have an adolescence in front of the world and
Speaker 2: do shit that everybody does, but like, fucking they put
Speaker 2: a camera on it and they were like, how dare
Speaker 2: she do it? And shit like that. But that being said,
Speaker 2: at your DNA, at the core of your DNA has
Speaker 2: always been a fighter. That's why when the cancer stuff
Speaker 2: kicked in, I was like, naturally, like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: my heart's breaking. But at the same time, I'm like,
Speaker 2: anybody's gonna fucking fight it. It's fucking dodo is she?
Speaker 2: She fought less and for less, like this is so
Speaker 2: much more so, you know, I'm no doctor and shit.
Speaker 2: But I was like, well, it may have met its match.
Speaker 2: And having noted her as all as that, I hope.
Speaker 2: So do you know how you how we even come
Speaker 2: into each other's world? I do. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So it was after nine o two one zero and
Speaker 1: my agent at the time, where were you?
Speaker 3: What agency? It might have been? William Morris and.
Speaker 2: Shannon couldn't be more famous kids at this point. Like, honestly,
Speaker 2: Shannon was probably one of the most famous people in
Speaker 2: the world period. She was absolutely hands down, I'm not
Speaker 2: oversteading it because I'm in her fucking palace, one of
Speaker 2: the most famous people in the world who was written.
Speaker 3: About, who had to audition for you. Yes, I had
Speaker 3: auditioned for you, like.
Speaker 2: That was the whole I trust me.
Speaker 1: They were like, you know, there's this movie, but you
Speaker 1: have to audition, and I I was like, okay.
Speaker 3: Let me read it.
Speaker 1: And then I read it and they're like it's Kevin
Speaker 1: Smith and he did Clerks and I'm like, okay, let
Speaker 1: me watch that. And I was like, yeah, okay, I'll
Speaker 1: audition and I did. And I remember that audition with
Speaker 1: you because you guys did not give anybody auditioning from
Speaker 1: my part easy material to audition with. No. It was
Speaker 1: like the monologue and I was like, oh my god.
Speaker 1: And I was the girl who I don't know if
Speaker 1: you remember, I don't ever want to read off of,
Speaker 1: you know, sides off of a piece of paper, so
Speaker 1: I had to memorize it all.
Speaker 2: But it was like a page long monelogue. She would
Speaker 2: have to like memorize.
Speaker 1: It was crazy, but I did it and you were like, Okay,
Speaker 1: that's great, do it faster, and I was that was.
Speaker 2: My direction to you for all of the mall rats for.
Speaker 1: All of the mall rats, You're like faster, faster, faster
Speaker 1: because you have.
Speaker 2: The ability to write it tet like you could. The
Speaker 2: original intention was kind of like, you know, I want
Speaker 2: to make a John Hughes John Landis movie. But at
Speaker 2: its root, Jim jacks the late Jim Jackson, who was
Speaker 2: our producer, was like, you know, from the early draft,
Speaker 2: it was like, it's kind of like a screwball comedy
Speaker 2: as well. He's going he got that pace going on.
Speaker 2: And Shannon was like the first professional that I worked
Speaker 2: with who could ratitat the dialogue in a very Howard
Speaker 2: Hawks his Girl Friday kind of way. And so if
Speaker 2: you watch the elevator scene between her and like Jason
Speaker 2: Lee where she's like, I'm a girl, damn it, it's
Speaker 2: it's so it's so fucking fast.
Speaker 1: The kids some of the absolute best dialogue. I always
Speaker 1: say this when people.
Speaker 3: As it is, but you some of.
Speaker 1: The best dialogue I've ever gotten to say. And you
Speaker 1: know what, you can be as humble as you want
Speaker 1: right now.
Speaker 2: You got to put it beneath the damn waters heather stuff.
Speaker 1: For me personally, that was maybe it was the pace,
Speaker 1: you know, but it was also just how you wrote
Speaker 1: for Renee was so impressive to me because you're a
Speaker 1: dude writing exactly what a girl was thinking.
Speaker 2: The women, I was always kind of drawing to have
Speaker 2: a very strong mother figure in my life, my mom literally,
Speaker 2: so naturally, every like woman I gravitate toward is a pretty,
Speaker 2: you know, a strong figure and very well spoken and
Speaker 2: usually the smartest person in the room. So all that
Speaker 2: went into the dna of like all the female characters
Speaker 2: that I wrote, and when I wrote them at the time,
Speaker 2: like people were like, oh, he can really write female characters.
Speaker 2: I wrote a thing with my kid. I got a daughter,
Speaker 2: Harley Quinn. She's like twenty four, and we had this
Speaker 2: writing gig and we wrote the script together and in
Speaker 2: it it's like two generations of characters, so there were
Speaker 2: from the young people and older people, like so she
Speaker 2: would have the voice of the youth and I definitely
Speaker 2: have one of the other side. So you know, I
Speaker 2: was waiting for the right one scene. I was like, fuck,
Speaker 2: I'll take a crack at it. And so I wrote
Speaker 2: the scene and I was like, hey, kiddo, I took
Speaker 2: a run at the car scene with kids, like, let
Speaker 2: me know what you think, and she wrote back, She's like, Dad, no, no,
Speaker 2: twenty something talks like this. Oh. And I was like,
Speaker 2: what are you talking about. I was like, I'm fucking
Speaker 2: like the king of gen X dialogue, like literally, like
Speaker 2: that's my bread and butter and fucking in the world.
Speaker 2: And she was like, yes, dead in the nineties. And
Speaker 2: it was like, I know, it was a dagger in
Speaker 2: my fucking heart. I was like, but I was. She
Speaker 2: wasn't wrong. I'm like, yeah, I guess I am in
Speaker 2: my fucking fifties and that era. You know, I could
Speaker 2: sell have a good ear for dialogue, but like being
Speaker 2: the person who knows the voice of youth, you know,
Speaker 2: it's like when I turn on Euphoria and get scared
Speaker 2: because I'm like, oh, that's youth culture, right, I don't
Speaker 2: it's you know, I don't understand teens anymore. So generally speaking,
Speaker 2: when we go back in time, Shannon, we had the
Speaker 2: merity to ask her to to audition.
Speaker 3: That was Phillips twice.
Speaker 1: You went in twice, I went, so, yeah, So I
Speaker 1: auditioned and then and then.
Speaker 5: One of the most famous people in the world whose
Speaker 5: work we were like familiar with, like it wasn't like
Speaker 5: I don't know what she's capable of, right the Shannon,
Speaker 5: She's like, you know, we've seen her for a couple
Speaker 5: of seasons on IO two.
Speaker 2: No, she was in fucking others. She's been working for
Speaker 2: a while. So it was like, we all know what
Speaker 2: Shannon could do. Why they kept making you audition? And
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to throw anyone under the bus, but
Speaker 2: like you know me, I'm like, fucking, oh my god,
Speaker 2: she's famous as cast. I mean like I've watched her
Speaker 2: movies and she's legit. She wants to be in it.
Speaker 2: Fuck like quick say yes. But for some reason they
Speaker 2: were like Don Phillips is like all right, we're gonna
Speaker 2: have her come back in and I'm like, why she's
Speaker 2: the one?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I mean then also, by the way, like the Key
Speaker 2: to a green Light on that movie as well, like
Speaker 2: that movie, Yes, that movie was That's how And again
Speaker 2: I'm not like blowing smoke of brass, but like that's
Speaker 2: how fucking popular Shannon was. Universal was like, oh, Shannon
Speaker 2: Door is interested, well, now you have a blinking green light.
Speaker 2: That's what they literally said. I thought, like that's an
Speaker 2: expression in Hollywood, and it was that nobody used it anymore,
Speaker 2: but the idea is, like, you're halfway there. They wanted
Speaker 2: one more like TV star. Later on, we were able
Speaker 2: to convince him that Jeremy London, who had done one
Speaker 2: season of a TV show called I'll Fly Away, which
Speaker 2: was very critically acclaimed, had Sam Waterson in it, like
Speaker 2: he's on a TV show. Look their ads and shit
Speaker 2: like that, and they're like, hey, all right, there's two
Speaker 2: TV people. Let's go. But Shannon was the one that
Speaker 2: got them. You know that Shannon was the viagra for Universal,
Speaker 2: for them to be like, oh, we're suddenly very interested
Speaker 2: and it's only a matter of time before we closed steal.
Speaker 1: By the way, that's that's literally all I want people
Speaker 1: to say from now on.
Speaker 3: Shannon was the biakra.
Speaker 2: Like if that's.
Speaker 1: Anyone ever like goes away with anything from this podcast,
Speaker 1: it's exactly that right there.
Speaker 3: So I did.
Speaker 1: You guys did want me to come back for a
Speaker 1: second audition, and you guys called it a pizza party,
Speaker 1: which is something that.
Speaker 2: Pizza party, which was a formality. You were getting the
Speaker 2: part at that point.
Speaker 1: And they told me I was getting the part, and
Speaker 1: so the second audition wasn't really an audition.
Speaker 2: Scandals story about the Pizza Party. So Pizza Party kids,
Speaker 2: as Shannon was about to explain, and then I started
Speaker 2: man explaining it for in her own fucking house, but guessed,
Speaker 2: I am, but the Pizza Party was. Don Phillips was
Speaker 2: our casting direct Yes, Don Phillips was super fucking well
Speaker 2: known in the cast.
Speaker 3: Like Fast Times at Richmond High.
Speaker 2: The lady knows her, Yeah, Times Richmond High now cast it,
Speaker 2: but single handedly discovered Sean Penn. Right then he cast
Speaker 2: Richard link Later's Days and Confused and discovered you know,
Speaker 2: with the help of course Richard link later, Matthew McConaughey.
Speaker 2: Right then we made a little picture called Marats Together
Speaker 2: and he discovered an actor named.
Speaker 3: Jaj Jason Lee.
Speaker 2: So Don's got a stellar track record and stuff. So
Speaker 2: Don Phillips had this thing called Pizza Party, where basically
Speaker 2: it was a I mean, pizza party is such a
Speaker 2: misleading title, because yes, there was pizza party.
Speaker 1: Who's eating pizza and then going into like spout dialogue
Speaker 1: very quickly, the.
Speaker 2: Lady's right, there was a lot of leftover pizza. Yes,
Speaker 2: the actors weren't eating it. But it gets worse than that.
Speaker 2: You're you're bringing in Don Phillips. Pizza Party is bringing
Speaker 2: in three actors that are up for the same role. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and you see your competition all throughout the day, and
Speaker 2: then sometimes you were cast opposite your competition in a
Speaker 2: scene where they're just playing somebody else for the read,
Speaker 2: so you're forced to sit there and watch somebody do
Speaker 2: the lines that you studied very well. And shit. Now,
Speaker 2: for me, that was like my first motion picture, right
Speaker 2: other than Clerks. We made ourselves as the first legit
Speaker 2: movie and I was like, I guess that's how it's done. Oh,
Speaker 2: I've heard for years since then is like, do you
Speaker 2: know what a horrible experience that was? All? That's Pizza Party.
Speaker 2: They're like, Pizza Party, it was like that fucking train
Speaker 2: that looks like a circus, but it is bringing you
Speaker 2: to a death camp. They're like, it's so fucking horrible.
Speaker 2: We all got there and just found out that, like
Speaker 2: we had to compete against each other and around Robin
Speaker 2: style and knock each other off one by one. So
Speaker 2: nobody ate. Pizza and Amanda Pete came out of New
Speaker 2: York and even though we knew that it was you
Speaker 2: playing the part, Universa was like, well, you have to
Speaker 2: bring out two other people for Renee as well. So
Speaker 2: there was one other person I forget. But the other
Speaker 2: person was a man of Pete, and Amanda Pete was
Speaker 2: in New York and she had to come to West Coast,
Speaker 2: so they flew her like they paid for a fly.
Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, she's what they
Speaker 2: called out a straw man, stalking horse or whatever, like
Speaker 2: unless you came in and took a shit on the table,
Speaker 2: she was never getting the part. It was gonna be
Speaker 2: you because everyone wanted you to have the partner shit.
Speaker 2: So she came out and like, GI, have a wonderful
Speaker 2: audition and whatnot. But she had figured out at a
Speaker 2: certain point that it was she was never like truly
Speaker 2: in the running. In our minds, it was like, oh,
Speaker 2: maybe she'll take one of the other parts, like Glenn
Speaker 2: or something like that. And we offered a Gwen and
Speaker 2: she said no afterwards because she felt disrespected by the process.
Speaker 2: She was mad that we had flown her all the
Speaker 2: way out there, and she truly had no chance to understandable.
Speaker 2: But in my young twenty five year old mind, I
Speaker 2: was like, man, that was a free trip to Los Angeles,
Speaker 2: Like I would have been like, I don't giving shit,
Speaker 2: I got to go to Los Angeles. I had a
Speaker 2: different mindset back then. I was still coming in from
Speaker 2: like the real world and stuff. So Shannon, we do
Speaker 2: the second the round Robin, and like Joey Adams hates
Speaker 2: that day, like Jason Lee is the only one. He
Speaker 2: was like it was hard, and he was like it
Speaker 2: was weird seeing other people that worked for the part.
Speaker 2: But Jason was meant to be a stalking horse or
Speaker 2: a straw man. He was not the guy that we
Speaker 2: thought was going to get the part. He was just
Speaker 2: the third guy, and then throughout the day wound up
Speaker 2: being the guy.
Speaker 1: It was pretty amazing, yeah, because I remember reading with
Speaker 1: three different guys and there was.
Speaker 2: Another guy who everyone thought was gonna be it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But towards the end, I think, I think you
Speaker 1: kept bringing Jason and I back in, and you worked
Speaker 1: with both of us a lot.
Speaker 2: And that was more about like, oh shit, let's see
Speaker 2: how we know we want her. Let's see how she
Speaker 2: is with the new guy. Because he was like he
Speaker 2: hadn't done anything. He was in Nvita Loca and Alison
Speaker 2: Andrews movie one shot him and Spike Jones, like buying
Speaker 2: drugs from somebody who like raised the hand to him,
Speaker 2: wordless and shit, And that's the closest he'd come to acting.
Speaker 2: He was a professional skateboarder, so everyone was like any
Speaker 2: act like, let's see.
Speaker 3: How he answer.
Speaker 2: He did, he was ready, and boy he grew into
Speaker 2: a wonderful actor. But how it even gets to the
Speaker 2: point where I say to Jim Jackson, you know who
Speaker 2: we should go after, the Shannon Doherty Because even though
Speaker 2: I sit there and watch you, and probably because I
Speaker 2: sit there and watch you on TV, and probably because
Speaker 2: like you were constantly in the news, and probably because
Speaker 2: I saw you in Heathers, you never occurred to me
Speaker 2: to cast because I was like, she's way too fucking
Speaker 2: famous for this movie. Its like gonna be a four
Speaker 2: and a half million dollar movie, Like and she's coming
Speaker 2: off of nine oh two, one oh. She ain't gonna
Speaker 2: spend that fucking cred on a movie like this. So
Speaker 2: never entered my mind. I might as well have been like, oh,
Speaker 2: Julia Roberts might want to do mal rats, Like that's
Speaker 2: exactly you were in the same caliber in my head.
Speaker 2: Malcolm Ingram, who interviews you later on or any use
Speaker 2: all of us for mal Renz Canadian Malcolm. I had
Speaker 2: just met him at the Toronto Film Festival for the
Speaker 2: Clerk screening and we go out to eat. So while
Speaker 2: we're sitting there, like you know, people are like, so,
Speaker 2: what's coming next? What are you gonna do next? And
Speaker 2: I was like, I've been talking to Universal, to the
Speaker 2: guys that made Days Confused, Jim Jackson, Sean Daniels, Alphaville
Speaker 2: about making this movie called mal Reds, and they're like,
Speaker 2: what is it. I was like, Clerk's in them all,
Speaker 2: and they're like, holy shit. Malcolm goes, well, you gotta
Speaker 2: get fucking Doherty and I was like Shannadherty and he goes, yeah,
Speaker 2: I gotta get fucking Dorty. She's a queen. And I
Speaker 2: was like, Shannondorty is super famouss like that's why I
Speaker 2: got a fucking get HER's the only chance your movie has.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I didn't know this.
Speaker 2: Malcolm was the one that was just like fucking Doherty man.
Speaker 2: He's like, look, you're gonna go back to the studio
Speaker 2: and shit, say Shannadory watched their faces and so when
Speaker 2: I went back, you know, Jim Jackson is like talking
Speaker 2: about who could be. Joey Adams was somebody that Jim
Speaker 2: Jack's was leaning toward because he had a friendship with her. Shit,
Speaker 2: And I was like, I'm like, what about Shanon Doherty
Speaker 2: and Jim Jack's like Shannon Doherty, she's like really famous,
Speaker 2: And I was like, I know, I know, but like
Speaker 2: she is like age appropriate and she's coming off of
Speaker 2: fucking like I know two and oh, like maybe she
Speaker 2: needs something to do, like I don't know, like isn't
Speaker 2: it worth asking? And it begins with Malcolm. So Malcolm
Speaker 2: came out for like the casting process. When I was like, Malcolm,
Speaker 2: like Shannon Doherty's coming in, He's like, oh, fucking coming on, California,
Speaker 2: I gotta see this. Did he come to the audience?
Speaker 1: I think he did come to the audition, Yeah, as
Speaker 1: I remember him sitting in on the audition.
Speaker 2: And that was supposed to be it. But then when
Speaker 2: we went to Minnesota to shoot the movie, and Malcolm
Speaker 2: was supposed to stay for five days and then stayed
Speaker 2: for the whole fucking shit. Right, he was always had
Speaker 2: this like fucking sense of product and still to this day,
Speaker 2: like whenever he wants to bring me down, a peg
Speaker 2: or whatever. It's just like you didn't fucking think of Doerty.
Speaker 2: I did.
Speaker 3: Oh, Malcolm, I love you.
Speaker 2: But it was not because I'm like, I'll never think
Speaker 2: of Doughty because she's good enough, but I was like,
Speaker 2: she too fucking big for us, and shit, and mercifully
Speaker 2: you were like, why did you do it?
Speaker 1: I freaking loved the script, to be honest, I really did.
Speaker 1: And it was, as I said, for me, coming off
Speaker 1: of nine O two one O, your dialogue was so
Speaker 1: interesting and Renee was so interesting, and I really I
Speaker 1: wanted to work with a young, up and coming director
Speaker 1: and you were, you know, you had all of this
Speaker 1: like attention on you from Clerks, Sundance, all of that stuff.
Speaker 1: So it was it was kind of like my reps agreed,
Speaker 1: I agreed. It was, yeah, you got to, you know,
Speaker 1: if you wanted. I kind of wanted to shift gears
Speaker 1: in my career anyway, because I had gotten so much
Speaker 1: hate from playing Brenda, because Brenda, you know, went through
Speaker 1: way too ens drama and angst and.
Speaker 2: Which the audience confused with the with.
Speaker 1: Me, yeah, and Renee was just not Brenda in any way,
Speaker 1: shape or form, and so it just felt like a
Speaker 1: really good career move, and I freaking like, still to
Speaker 1: this day love that dialogue. Somebody recently at a convention
Speaker 1: asked me if I would say some of the lines,
Speaker 1: and I was like, I really have to prep for that.
Speaker 2: It's been a long time between me and Malrats. I like,
Speaker 2: for me, those movies never die, right, Like the casts
Speaker 2: go on to other things and whatnot, But like, those
Speaker 2: movies are active and vital in my world all the time,
Speaker 2: not just because I fucking sequalize them to death, but
Speaker 2: also just because I've had a deep connection with the
Speaker 2: audience and fostered it for years and years. So in
Speaker 2: my world, those movies like never end. There's always somebody
Speaker 2: coming in and being like I fucking love Malrats ways
Speaker 2: and where I'm like, where were you when we fucking
Speaker 2: put that movie out?
Speaker 1: And That's kind of the interesting thing about mal Rats, right,
Speaker 1: is that it wasn't a box office success.
Speaker 2: It died.
Speaker 3: It died, So did my film career.
Speaker 2: We took it down and we took chance.
Speaker 3: I'm like, that was it?
Speaker 2: What did you did you do a movie after that?
Speaker 1: Uh? No? No, like that was that was it? People
Speaker 1: literally thought that like I was carrying the movie. So therefore,
Speaker 1: if it was a box office failure, it was completely
Speaker 1: on me. So there was no film career after that,
Speaker 1: which was a little brutal. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: I I I got to carry that cross now and
Speaker 1: carry that cross.
Speaker 2: I never put two and two together.
Speaker 3: It's okay, Like I think the fact that it is because.
Speaker 2: You really never shoot like another feature film. I mean like,
Speaker 2: I mean you did, like I don't know the Reunion
Speaker 2: movie and ship, but.
Speaker 3: Like TV all TV still like.
Speaker 2: Two hours of a movie and it anymore. Man, TV
Speaker 2: and my kid I can't tell you what network her
Speaker 2: favorite shows are on.
Speaker 3: Wait yeah, now, But back then it was very different.
Speaker 1: There was a very big difference, and I just wasn't
Speaker 1: I didn't necessarily want the grind of a TV show
Speaker 1: so soon. So I really thought that like mal Rats
Speaker 1: was gonna kick me into that gear.
Speaker 2: Oh man, I mean, here's the thing that might be
Speaker 2: aged like fine.
Speaker 3: Wine, fine wine.
Speaker 2: But in the moment when a movie, when a movie flops, kids,
Speaker 2: this is the experience, at least my experience. Like when
Speaker 2: a movie ends, it's like fucking love each other, man,
Speaker 2: and you sign each other's yearbooks like it's high school
Speaker 2: like I'll see you next summer, A fucking bond it
Speaker 2: forever and shit, and then when a movie dies, like
Speaker 2: if you know your your biblical stories, like fucking remember
Speaker 2: when like Christ gets arrested, like all the apostles scattered
Speaker 2: and they're like, do you know Jesus? Like who Jesus? No,
Speaker 2: I know, I know, I know this guy Jeter get Us,
Speaker 2: but Jeebus, maybe I don't. I don't know Jesus. That's
Speaker 2: what happen. But everybody goes running from the fucking bomb,
Speaker 2: so you scatter, so you know. I quickly pivoted and
Speaker 2: started writing Chasing Amy, which would then go on to
Speaker 2: like resuscitate my career and and kind of like I
Speaker 2: don't know. It was weird because like I went, I
Speaker 2: went to the Independent Spirit Awards the year before Chasing
Speaker 2: Amy came out just to present because I had written
Speaker 2: the show that year and so I was one of
Speaker 2: the presenters. I was there with Lord Dern and I
Speaker 2: went up and before we present, I was like, hey, man,
Speaker 2: I just want to take this opportunity to say, like
Speaker 2: to apologize from all right. I don't know what I
Speaker 2: was thinking as a joke, and we're there in front
Speaker 2: of like a bunch of indie folks under the tet
Speaker 2: in Santa Monica and they're all like, h Roger eber
Speaker 2: took that seriously. So when he reviewed Chasing Amy, he's like,
Speaker 2: Kevin Smith made a movie so bad he apologized for
Speaker 2: but like Chasing Amy on the other hand, now, so
Speaker 2: I'm just saying this kid's because for some people, you know,
Speaker 2: for younger people, it's like what so they're out of
Speaker 2: the conversation, sadly. But for the older people, you know
Speaker 2: maybe or the mid range w picked it up and
Speaker 2: you know, on home video like in the late nineties,
Speaker 2: and shit, this movie came and went in a weekend.
Speaker 2: It played on five hundred screens and was off of
Speaker 2: all of those screens within yeah, eight we had eight days,
Speaker 2: like basically an eight to ten day UND. It was
Speaker 2: like like I remember going to a test screening at
Speaker 2: San Diego Comic Con long before Hollywood like descended on
Speaker 2: comic Con and stuff, and we screened it. Tom Pollock,
Speaker 2: who was the head of Universal Studios at that point,
Speaker 2: he's there and he's like I was there for the
Speaker 2: Animal House test screening and he goes and this is
Speaker 2: that he's going this movie's gonna make one hundred million dollars,
Speaker 2: and he was off by ninety eight million, but he
Speaker 2: was close, you know close, you got round up a
Speaker 2: little bit. So when very well, and I mean well
Speaker 2: it's screened that that version of its screened very well,
Speaker 2: we had by that point we had cut the longer
Speaker 2: beginning which you could see on like the Mall Rats
Speaker 2: fifteenth Anniversary DVD or whatever, because we had a test
Speaker 2: screen unofficial test screening out in Los Angeles, and what
Speaker 2: we learned from the screening was like, if you have
Speaker 2: a movie called Mall Rats, you better get to the
Speaker 2: mall as quickly as possible. We didn't get to the
Speaker 2: mall u till like the hour mark. So we went
Speaker 2: in and did some reshaping. Paul Dixon was the editor,
Speaker 2: and then we did some reshooting out here in Los Angeles,
Speaker 2: and so we were able to dive into the movie quicker.
Speaker 2: So those tests were like positive. The studio was high
Speaker 2: on the flick. We were a Grammarcy release, which was
Speaker 2: a co production between Universal and Polygrin. Grammarcy put out
Speaker 2: shit like barbed Wire with Pamela Anderson. They put out
Speaker 2: Days Confused, but so it was a small kind of
Speaker 2: boutique label within universal. See it was a universal release
Speaker 2: but not a universal release. And she's right, man. It
Speaker 2: was like, all right, man, if this works, fucking here
Speaker 2: goes the movie career. Yeah it really did not. I
Speaker 2: apologize for that, but now so so in the moment,
Speaker 2: kids like dire, like Marats is a career killer. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 2: and like you know, a fucking ball in Shane and
Speaker 2: Albatross around the neck. Thank god, chasing Amy critically lifts
Speaker 2: me above it and stuff, and I kind of go
Speaker 2: on to have the career I fucking have. So Marats
Speaker 2: comes out and dies this miserable death and then has
Speaker 2: this ten year ascension to cult classic, cult classic, and
Speaker 2: like kids, you would think if the question is, oh,
Speaker 2: you guys know, no, no, because the world told us
Speaker 2: we were bad, like we got chastised and as you
Speaker 2: just hear, got fucking punished. They took away a movie career. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so there was no like, ah, one day those kids
Speaker 2: are gonna love this movie. It was just like you
Speaker 2: did bad, all of you, never do this again. And
Speaker 2: then the movie found it's it's audience, like when it
Speaker 2: went to home video. Then ten years after mal Rats
Speaker 2: and probably even less. But in my head it was
Speaker 2: like it took it. It was like a ten year journey.
Speaker 2: People would be like, I fucking love that movie and
Speaker 2: you'd be like, well, where were you that movie flop?
Speaker 2: They're like, no, I couldn't have been a flop. I
Speaker 2: have that on DVD, And you're like, those two things
Speaker 2: don't necessarily conflate, like one thing could be unsuccessful and
Speaker 2: you could still own the dvd, right, But what they're
Speaker 2: talking about is how many fucking times they spun it,
Speaker 2: like how often they watched that movie. And I've met
Speaker 2: everyone professions across the fucking boards to whom like mal
Speaker 2: Rats ment I was like for years, I did interviews
Speaker 2: up up for the IMDb folks, and so I met, like,
Speaker 2: you know a lot of people that I'll never work with.
Speaker 2: What's your name? Wanda Elizabeth Olsen? She comes in for
Speaker 2: like that movie with Hawkeye Jeremy Renner, But before like
Speaker 2: we even start talking, she was like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: she goes, you have no idea how many times I
Speaker 2: watched Malrats with my brother and I was like, that's
Speaker 2: the one, and she's like that one summer all we
Speaker 2: did was watch Malrats together. He loved that movie, and
Speaker 2: I love that movie because I love my brother. She's like,
Speaker 2: I could still quote that movie, and it was tough
Speaker 2: to do that interview without being like crying. That was
Speaker 2: before Wanta Vision, you know, after that. I believe me,
Speaker 2: I was a big fan of Wanta Vision, and maybe
Speaker 2: a little more so because I was like, she likes Malrets.
Speaker 2: But I've met so many people like that. There are
Speaker 2: people who worked with me later in my career who
Speaker 2: do it predicated on fucking malrads. Marats became currency for us.
Speaker 2: It bankrupted us at one point, yes, but.
Speaker 1: Now it's very much like we got the cool kid passed. Yes,
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, it was like we were not
Speaker 1: allowed in a classroom or even at the school we were,
Speaker 1: you know, and now of a sudden, we were like
Speaker 1: the kings and queens of the school. We were the
Speaker 1: prom queen and prom king. Basically, It's funny because I
Speaker 1: do a lot of conventions same and I signed so
Speaker 1: many malrats posters and DVDs and my doll from Mall
Speaker 1: Rats and like all sorts of things, and it is
Speaker 1: those fans are just the coolest. They friggin love mal Rats.
Speaker 1: They're so dedicated to it. And they also always ask
Speaker 1: me two things. One is when are you and Kevin
Speaker 1: going to do a convention together? So we'll figure that out. Yes, Two,
Speaker 1: when are you doing Marats too?
Speaker 2: I'm with them, When are we doing Marats? We've had
Speaker 2: a script for quite some time, which later on, if
Speaker 2: your kids are good, I will force in into read
Speaker 2: or a scene.
Speaker 3: I mean I have read the script.
Speaker 2: That's true.
Speaker 3: I have read the script. I've read it like, this
Speaker 3: can be.
Speaker 2: Edited, so you can easily, Like I can give you
Speaker 2: five minutes to look over the dialogue.
Speaker 3: Yeah, why not?
Speaker 2: You're like, look, I auditioned for the movie fuck It
Speaker 2: once before. We'll get to that and a bit.
Speaker 3: Look, guys, he's making me audition from all rights to
Speaker 3: right now that.
Speaker 2: Part has written for you.
Speaker 3: When are we going to do it?
Speaker 2: Look, I'm game. I know they're talking about doing a
Speaker 2: Chronicicon next year, like a real life Chronicon like we
Speaker 2: did in Jane sombab reboot. We did this fake con
Speaker 2: called Chronicon, So we're talking about doing that in real life.
Speaker 2: Like in February, we're doing our first cruise, Jane Somobob's
Speaker 2: cruise eskew uh and then I think at the end
Speaker 2: of the year we're doing that. So I know sooner
Speaker 2: or later somebody will hit you up and be like,
Speaker 2: oh my God, come out for that. But what I'll
Speaker 2: hit you up for personally is I bought a movie
Speaker 2: theater back in my hometown with my friends and we
Speaker 2: call it Smarckcastle Sen and we have done mall Rats
Speaker 2: with Jason and Jeremy because they were both in town
Speaker 2: for something. So I was like, fuck, I let's screen it.
Speaker 2: We did Chasing Amy two separate screenings, one with Jason Lee,
Speaker 2: one with with Joey Adams and Russo brothers just came
Speaker 2: at the top of November and we did like a
Speaker 2: big Q and A with them. So you come out
Speaker 2: to when's the next time you're.
Speaker 3: East, I can go back whenever.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'll send you like I have a whole
Speaker 1: bunch of cons that I'm doing, so like I have
Speaker 1: one in May in Philadelphia.
Speaker 2: Oh shit, yeah, that might be perfect. If you're going
Speaker 2: to be out in Philly for May, that would be
Speaker 2: a time to double up, unless you're like, bro, I
Speaker 2: feel like going to the coldest fucking place in the
Speaker 2: world in March.
Speaker 3: In March, I'm in Scotland. That's not anywhere close to
Speaker 3: do You're.
Speaker 2: Going over to Dokan there going back to Mall Rats.
Speaker 2: You know, when we did Mallrats, I didn't have this
Speaker 2: like side hustle where like I was professionally Kevin Smith,
Speaker 2: where I stand on stage and fucking tell stories and
Speaker 2: shit that came out of Mallrats. Also because after Malurats
Speaker 2: came out and died like a couple months later, like
Speaker 2: I was sitting around looking my wounds, going like what
Speaker 2: the fuck? Man, Like I was on top and I'm
Speaker 2: fucking like I was a flavor of the fucking year.
Speaker 2: And so we Uh. I got a call from the
Speaker 2: University of Delaware. They were like doing a screening of Mallrats,
Speaker 2: So like you want to come out and like talk afterwards,
Speaker 2: And enough time had gone by a couple of months
Speaker 2: where I was like yeah, yeah, I guess, And it's
Speaker 2: within driving distance, Like it was like less than two
Speaker 2: hours to get there. So I drove out and found
Speaker 2: this insane healing I heard you talk about, and I
Speaker 2: think you're absolutely right with with Holly. On the episode
Speaker 2: you talked about how this is cheaper than therapy, doing
Speaker 2: podcasting something I've believed in, you know, since I was podcasting,
Speaker 2: I was like, oh my god, there's no need for therapy.
Speaker 2: You just get to talk about all your shit everything
Speaker 2: and good things, bad things. But so there I was
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety five and doing this Q and A after Mornce,
Speaker 2: and it's like a packed room full of college kids
Speaker 2: with no fucking pretenses about like your second movie flopped,
Speaker 2: this pre internet, so it's nothing liking things not tribal yet,
Speaker 2: and it was probably a free screening on campus and shit.
Speaker 2: And then here was the filmmaker came out just for
Speaker 2: the fuck of it, and it was such an ego
Speaker 2: boost where it was like, oh my god, not only
Speaker 2: is the theater packed, which didn't happen when this movie
Speaker 2: was out, all these fucking kids love it. And they're
Speaker 2: also like, hey, you're one of us, because I'm not
Speaker 2: that far removed from them twenty five. These kids are
Speaker 2: anywhere between eighteen twenty two at this point and stuff.
Speaker 2: So I become an aspir to figure where people are like,
Speaker 2: holy shit, like that's only a few years away from me.
Speaker 2: You just make a movie and shit, and you can
Speaker 2: make a movie with like Shannadari. So that begins my therapy.
Speaker 2: There's a chance I could have went south with the
Speaker 2: recess to mallrats, because clerks have been so over praised,
Speaker 2: you know, in our business being what it is, there's
Speaker 2: plenty of distractions to save your wounds. It could have
Speaker 2: been booze, it could have been drugs. But what I
Speaker 2: found was people being like, no, this movie's good and
Speaker 2: standing up in in front of audience and shit. That
Speaker 2: fed me and also created this entire side hustle through
Speaker 2: which now I make a majority of whatever I earn
Speaker 2: more as just being Kevin Smith than what Kevin Smith
Speaker 2: does for a living, all tied to fucking mallrats. Yeah,
Speaker 2: do you what do you remember about shooting at the mall?
Speaker 2: The Eden Prairie Mall, you know, which I've revisited many times.
Speaker 2: Not only evidence of us because they changed, like the
Speaker 2: food court with those weird neon palm trees and shit
Speaker 2: like that, which was so weird because we were in Minnesota.
Speaker 2: The only evidence of us is in the pot Belly
Speaker 2: sandwich shop. There's a malrat sposter hanging up.
Speaker 1: Well, at least there's something or acknowledging it. I what
Speaker 1: I really remember about shooting was the atmosphere I remember
Speaker 1: the hotel, all of us just like I mean, Muse
Speaker 1: was skateboarding, so it was Jason like down the hallways. Yes,
Speaker 1: could smells some pot, you know, we were. I think
Speaker 1: it was just so it felt like a bunch of
Speaker 1: kids who were just in a frat house basically like
Speaker 1: hanging out together.
Speaker 2: Had you, like when you shot Heathers were you shooting
Speaker 2: in La? Had you ever gone on location to shoot
Speaker 2: a movie?
Speaker 1: Uh, I'm not I don't. Yes, yes, because I did,
Speaker 1: like Robert Kennedy in his times when I was young,
Speaker 1: and that was it hyena sport.
Speaker 3: So I had been.
Speaker 1: But remember it was like nine o two one zero
Speaker 1: was my life for four years. I think you were
Speaker 1: working constantly and in La, you know, riving so to
Speaker 1: be in a location and and also to be working
Speaker 1: with everybody that was just having a good time. Like
Speaker 1: nobody took themselves too seriously, and.
Speaker 2: I think I did. I think I was like trying
Speaker 2: to be the indie film like Icon.
Speaker 1: It was a weird tri He was also the captain
Speaker 1: of the ship, you know, and you had a studio movie,
Speaker 1: so that you know a lot of pressure on you.
Speaker 1: But you know, Claire for Lonnie, her hotel room was
Speaker 1: directly across from mine, and so I would hang out
Speaker 1: with her a lot. I remember she just kept on
Speaker 1: eating kiwi's and I had never eaten a kiwi before,
Speaker 1: and she was like peeling and eating her kiwi while
Speaker 1: talking to me, and it was it was like a
Speaker 1: nightly ritual that we had to sort of just decompress
Speaker 1: from the day.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was excited because I'm like, wow, this is like
Speaker 1: a movie movie in this school. And I had Tony
Speaker 1: g was my makeup artist at the time, who then
Speaker 1: went on to do Angelina Jolie and then became like
Speaker 1: a huge prosthetic girl.
Speaker 2: Was that the girl that you hung out with all
Speaker 2: the time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, with the like perfectly toned arms and like the
Speaker 1: quirky personality.
Speaker 2: Was like your right hand person. Yeah, and you had
Speaker 2: the dog. Which dog did you have? It was a
Speaker 2: German shop.
Speaker 3: I had Elfie Elfie and she was.
Speaker 2: Straight out of Germany. She responded to or she responded
Speaker 2: to German commits.
Speaker 1: She was straight out of Germany. And she was shots
Speaker 1: in three, like hardcore trained security.
Speaker 2: Yes, because she Shannon could be like and the motherfucker
Speaker 2: would like go choose somebody's throat out.
Speaker 1: Yeah shit, yeah, And we taught her also like street
Speaker 1: like street training. When she came here from Germany, we
Speaker 1: had taught her street training, so she didn't go for arms.
Speaker 2: She went through for like next the way shepherds do.
Speaker 2: It was like I remember, while we were shooting, Shannon
Speaker 2: would come in and because we shot at an active mall,
Speaker 2: The in Prairie Mall was this shopping center, you know,
Speaker 2: in inan Prairie, Minnesota, which is maybe about twenty five
Speaker 2: thirty minutes away from Minneapolis, but definitely at least twenty
Speaker 2: thirty minutes away from the Mall of America, which had
Speaker 2: opened the year prior, which I don't know if it
Speaker 2: still counts as this, but at that point was the
Speaker 2: world's biggest fucking mall, so it had sucked all the
Speaker 2: business out of the other local malls. So the Eaton
Speaker 2: Prairie Mall was operating at less than fifty percent capacity
Speaker 2: of stores. So that's why. And we got that mall.
Speaker 2: I mean, I know, it's nineteen ninety five and shit,
Speaker 2: so naturally everything's going to sound cheap. But in nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety five, kids, this was cheap. They gave us that
Speaker 2: mall for two months for ten thousand dollars.
Speaker 3: That's cheap.
Speaker 2: That's even by today's standards. I think people would be
Speaker 2: like what it was nuts. And in that mall that
Speaker 2: became our studio, so it.
Speaker 3: Was like dressing rooms were stores shut down.
Speaker 2: Yes, there were no trailers or anything like that. Like
Speaker 2: I'm sure on nine oh two, we know you guys
Speaker 2: had fucking trailers. Yeah. Here the dressing rooms were built,
Speaker 2: as Shannon said, inside fucking closed down story. So here's
Speaker 2: the gap next to you. The depth just closed down,
Speaker 2: and we built a bunch of fucking stalls.
Speaker 1: And in the living room, like I think you guys
Speaker 1: gave me like a whole storage just to myself. It
Speaker 1: was probably like you know, a Claire's ear ring store
Speaker 1: that had gotten did not.
Speaker 2: Even exist yet kids where we are we are, and they.
Speaker 1: Almost like a shoved couch in there and like one chair,
Speaker 1: and it was like, here's your dressing room, and I
Speaker 1: was like cool.
Speaker 2: She would come in through like the front door with
Speaker 2: el and like walk up the escalator stairs to like
Speaker 2: where the dressing rooms were and stuff like that, and
Speaker 2: the people that ran the mall would constantly come into
Speaker 2: the office like I look, I know she is who
Speaker 2: she is, but like, can she go through the back door?
Speaker 2: If people see her bringing a dog into the mall,
Speaker 2: they'll think they can bring a dog into the mall.
Speaker 2: And so we were like, yeah, we'll talk to her, like, Shannon,
Speaker 2: you can't bring it through the you go through the
Speaker 2: back door. And she goes, now I'm gonna go through
Speaker 2: the front door, and we're like all right. So we
Speaker 2: were like we talked to Shannon as the best we
Speaker 2: could deliver. I A'm gonna tell her to kill her dogs.
Speaker 2: She can't go through the fucking ball. And yet like that, I.
Speaker 3: Don't even remember that it.
Speaker 2: Was that the dog was absolutely adorable, but it was necessary.
Speaker 2: Like again, I'm not overstating how fucking famous an it was.
Speaker 2: And we were now outside of like her natural stomping
Speaker 2: grounds where you could be famous in Los Angeles and
Speaker 2: there are other famous people, although she was fucking stalked.
Speaker 2: We were in Minnesota where people were like, where your
Speaker 2: fame is magnified ten thousand times.
Speaker 1: I mean, by the way, Minnesota. The twins were from Minnesota, Minnesota.
Speaker 1: It was like, you know and listen, at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, everybody was wonderful. But I think again,
Speaker 1: coming off of nine O twoe oh and having that
Speaker 1: amount of fame at that age where and you're getting
Speaker 1: letters from crazy people saying that you know you're married
Speaker 1: to them, and you you know they're going to come
Speaker 1: and get you and bring you back home, and you're like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, like this person thinks we're actually married,
Speaker 1: and what are they going to do to me if
Speaker 1: they ever?
Speaker 2: Did? They? Nowadays, they you know, the kids ship relationships
Speaker 2: on TV shows. It's called oh I ship this real hard.
Speaker 3: What the hell does that mean?
Speaker 2: It means that they love that particular pairing of couples.
Speaker 2: So they're like, oh, I shipped this. I shipped this
Speaker 2: couple so hard. And you were definitely before there was
Speaker 2: an internet. Your relationship with Dylan broke that Internet, and
Speaker 2: people shipped Brenda and Dylan so fucking hard. Yeah, So
Speaker 2: did you get shipped from people who are like you
Speaker 2: can't fucking we how come you're not with Dylan and ship?
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, but I think it was more I
Speaker 1: don't your mind. Yeah, it was definitely more your mind,
Speaker 1: very scary stuff where you're you know, having to get
Speaker 1: the FBI involved, right, And and that was the dog
Speaker 1: because I didn't like at that point, I didn't really
Speaker 1: want a lot of I didn't want like a security
Speaker 1: guard that was that would have a.
Speaker 2: Fucking bodyguard, which would have made like a hell of
Speaker 2: sense at this time, would have but like that we're
Speaker 2: really trying to keep it. Yeah, just.
Speaker 1: A bodyguard would have felt to me as if I
Speaker 1: believed in my own hype, right, and also invasive because
Speaker 1: I'm not someone who wants to hang out with someone
Speaker 1: twenty four hours a day. I really enjoyed my my Space,
Speaker 1: but as a dog I can hang out with twenty
Speaker 1: four hours a day.
Speaker 2: Were you a rich kid growing up or no, I was,
Speaker 2: were the opposite. Yeah, So I think that also has
Speaker 2: something to do with it, because you know, you've always
Speaker 2: had an air of street wise to you that one
Speaker 2: wouldn't have if they were born into this world. You
Speaker 2: came from a real place, and even you know, though
Speaker 2: you started acting at a young age, you were surrounded
Speaker 2: by fucking real people for at least the formative years
Speaker 2: of your life. Yeah, enough that you understand reality. So
Speaker 2: even when you were super famous, I never felt you
Speaker 2: leaning into that as much as leaning more toward I'm
Speaker 2: an individual and I have a life and you're not
Speaker 2: entitled to that, But fame was not a thing that
Speaker 2: you particularly cared about. In fact, at that point in
Speaker 2: your life, it had become a hindrance.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I hated it.
Speaker 2: You always came across, for lack of a better description,
Speaker 2: more normal, somebody who grew up in the normal world
Speaker 2: who then found fortune based on her talent. So I
Speaker 2: feel like you not having a bodyguard really tracked because
Speaker 2: that was something that like, yes, people in the business did,
Speaker 2: but you were kind of like, I'm not of that world.
Speaker 2: I'm myself and I come from a real place. And
Speaker 2: you could absolutely debunk it, but I think it had
Speaker 2: a lot to do with you all are from a
Speaker 2: world that's not make believe. You may work and make
Speaker 2: believe world, and make believe world made you famous. You
Speaker 2: came from family, the street, fucking like people who had
Speaker 2: to work for a living, Yeah, in order to fucking
Speaker 2: keep roofs overheads and stuff. What I never asked you, though,
Speaker 2: is when did it start? Whose idea was it to be, like,
Speaker 2: I want to fucking act.
Speaker 3: It was my brother's idea.
Speaker 1: Actually, So my brother, who's four years older than me,
Speaker 1: he really wanted to be an actor, Sean Sean Doherty,
Speaker 1: Sean Doherty, Sean Bryant Doherty. The Bryant is named after
Speaker 1: Bear Bryant, who was the coach for Alabama at the time.
Speaker 1: So we were doing plays at church and what it was.
Speaker 1: We were raised Baptist, but we were going to a
Speaker 1: Methodist church and somebody saw us and you know it
Speaker 1: was like, I have an agent's number. You guys, they
Speaker 1: should really, you know, get into the business. And my brother,
Speaker 1: now this was now in LA.
Speaker 2: What were you doing.
Speaker 1: So we had moved from Tennessee to like Palsferties area.
Speaker 1: Why for my dad's business. So it was a family business.
Speaker 1: My grandfather, my mom's father had a shipping company, like
Speaker 1: truck transportation company, and so my dad was opening up
Speaker 1: a West coast version.
Speaker 2: So he moved the entire family, which is at this
Speaker 2: point him, your mom, my brother, and myself, so just
Speaker 2: four in the family. Just for in the family. There
Speaker 2: was probably a pet, yeah, I mean I know that
Speaker 2: when we were living. Yeah, there was Curious George who
Speaker 2: was like a you know, we got him at a
Speaker 2: pound and he was a half Schnauzer half poodle and yeah,
Speaker 2: his name was here is George.
Speaker 1: So to your parents are working people. My parents were
Speaker 1: working people. My dad worked really hard. That's probably like
Speaker 1: the one time in my life that we that we
Speaker 1: did have money. But then my dad got really sick.
Speaker 1: He had I was I think my mom had an
Speaker 1: aneurysm when I was probably nine or eight, and she
Speaker 1: almost died.
Speaker 3: And then, you know, that's.
Speaker 2: That's my fears. That's how I'm going to go because
Speaker 2: you can't do anything about that. Yeah, later I almost
Speaker 2: died of a heart attackle six years ago. But the
Speaker 2: thing I've always been afraid of is aneurysm or embolism
Speaker 2: because it's like taking time bomb you don't necessarily know about,
Speaker 2: keeping very deep in your head, and you're just going
Speaker 2: about your dad, what happened in your mind.
Speaker 1: So I was doing a play called The Mound Builders
Speaker 1: at like the Burbank Playhouse, and.
Speaker 2: So at this point you're already into acting, yeah, but
Speaker 2: like not really working working.
Speaker 3: I'm like doing plays and it's fun.
Speaker 1: I think I was like eight or nine and my
Speaker 1: mom was going with me, and it was during a performance.
Speaker 3: Yes, I was on stage, but she.
Speaker 1: Started having horrible, horrible, horrible headaches, like so bad. She
Speaker 1: got dizzy. She couldn't stand. She was throwing up. Once
Speaker 1: the play was over, the director put her in. He
Speaker 1: had a Volvo like station wagon volvo, and he put
Speaker 1: the whole back down and I just remember that somebody
Speaker 1: drove us back to the house and they held her
Speaker 1: head very still the entire time we got to the house.
Speaker 1: She took Tyler and all and went to bed very sick,
Speaker 1: but woke up the next day and she felt a
Speaker 1: little funky, but she was like, I'm buying. My dad
Speaker 1: was like no, no, no, You're going to the doctor and
Speaker 1: they did a scan and they were like, we have
Speaker 1: to take you in the surgery immediately. That was on
Speaker 1: Friday the thirteenth. She went into an eight hour surgery
Speaker 1: on Friday the thirteenth, with the doctor saying ten percent
Speaker 1: chance of living and if she survives, you know, here
Speaker 1: is the best case scenario for her. And it was like,
Speaker 1: she's going to be paralyzed, she's not going to be
Speaker 1: able to talk. Like it was crazy, Yeah, how old.
Speaker 2: Are you at this point?
Speaker 3: Eight or nine?
Speaker 2: A lot of information and heartbreak and trauma to have
Speaker 2: to process and yeah put into place, and so essentially,
Speaker 2: even before she heads into surgery, you're prepared for like
Speaker 2: the worst, something bad is going to happen in my mom. Mind,
Speaker 2: you kids, you can't do microscopic surgery like you can today.
Speaker 2: So batman fucking opening up her cranium.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, So they went.
Speaker 1: They they opened her up right here, and you know,
Speaker 1: the big thing was like her eyesight, because the aneurysm
Speaker 1: was sort of behind an eye. But they did it,
Speaker 1: and and she came into surgery with just one eyebrow paralyzed.
Speaker 2: And I remain that way.
Speaker 1: She would stare at the mirror and work and work.
Speaker 2: That eye really rehabilitated her eyebrow. I met your mother.
Speaker 2: She's a wonderful woman, but that really fucking edges it
Speaker 2: up a not yeah, willing ones fucking paralyzed eyebrow back
Speaker 2: to work. Yeah, No, wonder you keep her around you
Speaker 2: all the time?
Speaker 1: I no, wonder I have, you know, the inner strength
Speaker 1: and the will to work comes.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So, and then my dad obviously had like by the
Speaker 1: time my dad passed away, he had had something like
Speaker 1: eleven strokes and like twelve heart attacks and quintuple bypassed
Speaker 1: heart surgery and on dialysis.
Speaker 3: And I think that was it.
Speaker 2: Fat eating or was it bad genetics.
Speaker 3: And diabetes, just like my dad.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she took my dad as well. How old was
Speaker 2: your dad.
Speaker 1: When he passed away? Sixty seven?
Speaker 2: Maybe truly the same age as my father age sixty seven. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and it's like, think about now, how old are you
Speaker 2: when he passed away? Was this before nine or two
Speaker 2: went hour?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 1: No, no, no, it was after to see all that
Speaker 1: he got to see charmed. My dad was my best friend.
Speaker 2: So I always tell your mom was your best friend.
Speaker 2: My dad was my best friend, right, yeah, your mom,
Speaker 2: you's seck best friend, because.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean my mom and I were super close.
Speaker 1: But like, my dad was my hero. He was my rock.
Speaker 1: He was like everything my dad was. Anytime he went
Speaker 1: to the hospital, it was always the most devastating thing
Speaker 1: in the world for me because I was, you know,
Speaker 1: that fear of losing somebody who means that much to you.
Speaker 1: I honestly didn't think I was going to recover when
Speaker 1: he passed away.
Speaker 2: Who was the one that took you to auditions and stuff?
Speaker 2: What did Dad think about the career?
Speaker 3: He was okay with it.
Speaker 1: I mean he would get very mad, mad at the
Speaker 1: press and would always say to me, like I told
Speaker 1: you should have been an attorney.
Speaker 3: And I was like, I know.
Speaker 2: That that was fucking fixed for it. He's like, you
Speaker 2: should just not be in that horrible business. Nobody writes
Speaker 2: this shit about attorney.
Speaker 3: Yes, he wanted me to go to law school.
Speaker 2: I mean, look, I've heard you speak over the years
Speaker 2: not just how smart you are, the things you know,
Speaker 2: but also your delivery. You could have easily been a.
Speaker 3: Lawyer, thank you.
Speaker 2: I think so a fucking lawyer.
Speaker 3: Yes, really, really, really had journey.
Speaker 2: I think we all benefited more from you not having
Speaker 2: a career in law. But yes, I think you could
Speaker 2: have nailed it. And also it's never too late. That
Speaker 2: being said, he saw Charmed as well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, did he ever?
Speaker 2: Like my father, my father passed away twenty years ago.
Speaker 2: It just came up on twenty years ago that he
Speaker 2: died this year twenty In June of twenty twenty three
Speaker 2: was twenty years so I loved him to death. He
Speaker 2: was a guy that took me to movies and stuff
Speaker 2: like that. But my father was also the guy who
Speaker 2: was a bit of the internet before the Internet. So like,
Speaker 2: you know, I'd come in and I'd be like, oh
Speaker 2: my god, did you see what the new York Times
Speaker 2: said about the movies, like, yeah, but did you see
Speaker 2: what the Ledger said? Man? And the Ledger was the
Speaker 2: shitty one, like the shitty review and not the shitty paper,
Speaker 2: but like the negative review. And I'm like, well, yes,
Speaker 2: I did see that, and I'm really trying to focus
Speaker 2: on like the positive one, which also happens to be
Speaker 2: the New York Times, which inarguably, you know, most people
Speaker 2: are more familiar with than the Ledger. I know the
Speaker 2: Ledger is our paper because we're in New Jersey, but still,
Speaker 2: and my father was kind of that not like remember
Speaker 2: in the movie Jerry Maguire, Google Gooding Junior's character had
Speaker 2: that brother. His name was TP Yes, and he's always
Speaker 2: like I told him he's too short to be in
Speaker 2: the NFL stuff, like just always throw them just a little,
Speaker 2: a little jeb I. Honestly, I know my father adored me.
Speaker 2: I know my father was insanely proud of my career.
Speaker 2: But I think my father was very interested in making
Speaker 2: sure that I.
Speaker 1: Didn't you stayed humble become an asshole, like is what
Speaker 1: it comes down to.
Speaker 2: So as much as he was proud, he would he
Speaker 2: was the voice of and you know in the Clerk's era.
Speaker 2: That was hard because Clerk's was a beloved fucking film, like,
Speaker 2: and I'm not saying that with any sort of like
Speaker 2: fuck everybody, but it. If I'd known it was going
Speaker 2: to be so beloved, I would have tried harder. But
Speaker 2: I think not trying is what made it what it was.
Speaker 2: So the whole world was like, kid, you're a fucking
Speaker 2: wonder kid, genius and ship like that, except for my
Speaker 2: old was like, yeah, no, doesn't think you're so smart kid.
Speaker 1: You know that's funny because my dad used to always
Speaker 1: say to me that, you know, if you read the
Speaker 1: good reviews, you better read the bad as well. Percent
Speaker 1: keeping they were keeping us humble. They were making sure
Speaker 1: that we had humility.
Speaker 2: I could see that as being a dude who would
Speaker 2: want to beat up everybody who wrote about you or
Speaker 2: the people that you ran with. Would you? Did you
Speaker 2: get lectured a lot? Like you shouldn't hang out with
Speaker 2: this one, that one or that one.
Speaker 1: I mean like at some point when I was eighteen,
Speaker 1: there was no lecturing me because I really thought that
Speaker 1: I knew what I was doing.
Speaker 2: Unlus you had like the job to back it as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was hanging out with kind of a bad crowd.
Speaker 1: And this was I think right in the beginning of
Speaker 1: it or right before, and you were on in your
Speaker 1: I think I was.
Speaker 3: Like eighteen eighteen nineteen kids, yeah.
Speaker 2: Fast, like Iro Ensuring was one hundred and eight. I
Speaker 2: think when he was on he was a grown ass man.
Speaker 2: Let's be honest. So was what so was? Weren't they all? Like?
Speaker 2: That was always the joke. These kids are like in
Speaker 2: their fucking mid thirties. But you were young?
Speaker 1: No, not really, I mean Brian was, you know, he
Speaker 1: was the youngest.
Speaker 2: You know. I bought the house right next to his,
Speaker 2: which used to be I bought the house. The house
Speaker 2: was sold to me by Ben Afflecks. His house he
Speaker 2: lived right next door to Brian Austin Green when he
Speaker 2: was mostly with with Megan Megan, I think, but he
Speaker 2: had like a studio in the house next door and stuff.
Speaker 2: So in the beginning when I first so whild I've
Speaker 2: thought about this in years. When I first moved into
Speaker 2: that house, like every once in a while I would
Speaker 2: see bag you know, out in the earth that's what
Speaker 2: they called them back day.
Speaker 3: That's what he's under in my phone.
Speaker 2: I was never close enough to call on that and
Speaker 2: he probably doesn't even remember living next to me. But like, again,
Speaker 2: you know, I was somebody who watched nine O two
Speaker 2: one o long and not just like, oh, I'm in
Speaker 2: the business and not like that show. I was an
Speaker 2: outsider with no hope of ever being in the business
Speaker 2: who watched that show. So working with Shannon and then
Speaker 2: eventually like being like, oh my god, my neighbors is Brian,
Speaker 2: it was like, you know, fucking it was wild. He
Speaker 2: was a wonderful, wild adjustment. But he was always a
Speaker 2: nice guy.
Speaker 1: Brian is Brian is awesome. He's really I left him
Speaker 1: to death. And actually, do you talk to any of
Speaker 1: the other kids?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I mean I speak to almost all of them, really
Speaker 1: and sometimes yep.
Speaker 3: TA to Toy against.
Speaker 2: Tory in a fucking TBS show that during COVID during
Speaker 2: the lockdown, TBS did the show called Celebrity Show Off.
Speaker 2: Tory and her family was one of the competing contestants.
Speaker 3: How did you do on that?
Speaker 2: It wound up being me and Tory at the end,
Speaker 2: really and then Toy won. Now he asked me, I
Speaker 2: think we were rob or whatever. You know, it's just
Speaker 2: a pink belt that I really would have cherished and
Speaker 2: ship she won it. But oh my god, bro, like
Speaker 2: that's look one by one. I'm checking the nine O
Speaker 2: two one o kids off.
Speaker 3: I know they live next to.
Speaker 2: I didn't work with Luke, but I met Luke late
Speaker 2: in life.
Speaker 1: I feel like, didn't you meet Luke and Vancouver also
Speaker 1: when you were shooting That's where I met him.
Speaker 2: Later you were flash and he was there for is
Speaker 2: how I judge people in this business. If a motherfucker
Speaker 2: is willing to come up to you, that's the motherfucker
Speaker 2: worth talking to you. Because I'm not the person that's
Speaker 2: ever going to go up to somebody because I'm always
Speaker 2: like I'm a bother. That person he like literally came
Speaker 2: over and like started this fucking conversation and was so
Speaker 2: goddamn lovely and he couldn't have been fucking lovelier. And
Speaker 2: this is right before he did like the Quentin thing.
Speaker 2: He did make it into the Quent once. I think
Speaker 2: that was the last thing that he.
Speaker 1: Was in and he was so excited. Oh god, yeah,
Speaker 1: because I.
Speaker 2: Must have felt legitimized.
Speaker 1: Yeah, way of it was like me getting cast from
Speaker 1: Mall Rats, probably more so because it was Quentin. I'm
Speaker 1: like Marats again, gonna have a big film career, Like
Speaker 1: I know that for Luke, Like I mean, you know
Speaker 1: who doesn't want to work with Quentin Tarantino first off?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I.
Speaker 1: For him, it was just I remember he called me
Speaker 1: on the phone and he was like over the moon,
Speaker 1: a static and he was telling me all about his character,
Speaker 1: things that he was going to do and what he
Speaker 1: was going to try. So I'm I'm really glad that
Speaker 1: he got to do that before he passed away.
Speaker 2: Did you ever do Simpsons? No, he did. I always
Speaker 2: think of him as as when he played side show
Speaker 2: Luke Perry. They called him on the show he was
Speaker 2: like Crusty's cousin the He was absolutely well you guys,
Speaker 2: you guys were tight, and it sounds like you were
Speaker 2: tight even after.
Speaker 3: We were tight.
Speaker 1: We became a lot tighter after the show.
Speaker 2: Did you like them on the show? Like like them?
Speaker 1: Like them?
Speaker 2: Do you ever find them attractive? What does it like
Speaker 2: to kis?
Speaker 1: We had like a little like minor like fleeing attraction,
Speaker 1: but it didn't.
Speaker 2: Like actors are so cool they talk about it like
Speaker 2: that where it's like we had a little thing, but
Speaker 2: it didn't. And it's like, that's that's fucking huge, man.
Speaker 2: Could you imagine anybody else in the world, Like, oh,
Speaker 2: I had a little thing with fucking looke pair, Like that.
Speaker 1: Was the thing that defined it was like my second
Speaker 1: and it didn't really you know, go anywhere.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, bro, just looking at you. It is
Speaker 2: so crazy because I just remember watching the fucking show.
Speaker 2: I have a very vivid memory of a show out
Speaker 2: one act break where they were playing there was a
Speaker 2: very popular song Don't want to Fall in there, and
Speaker 2: you guys were like at a club and it goes
Speaker 2: out on you the fade out and shit like that. Like,
Speaker 2: I have very distinct memories of watching that show is
Speaker 2: culturally very huge and one of the first shows that
Speaker 2: broadcast new episodes in the summer. Yes, we used to
Speaker 2: be a very seasonal world where it's like you watch
Speaker 2: new shows all the way up to time.
Speaker 1: All of a sudden, we were doing like thirty two
Speaker 1: thirty six episodes.
Speaker 2: You guys shooting and much smart because it actually like
Speaker 2: you guys have brand new ship while everyone else is
Speaker 2: in rerum.
Speaker 3: That's how it became popular.
Speaker 2: That was their Netflix of the day. Like some shows
Speaker 2: go to Netflix it get popular. You guys.
Speaker 1: The fact that like you could turn on Fox and
Speaker 1: see brand new episodes of during the summer when everybody
Speaker 1: else was showing reruns is what blew that show up.
Speaker 2: And it was all bathing suits shit.
Speaker 1: And it was at the beach club, so everybody was
Speaker 1: in bathing suits.
Speaker 2: Yeah, folks can't see. You're not doing video yet. One
Speaker 2: day you will. But folks are just hearing this, not
Speaker 2: saying this. So what they're not seeing is how like
Speaker 2: fucking insanely great the chann looks good.
Speaker 1: I love you, thank you so much, and see you
Speaker 1: for the next episode.