1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff. Mom never told you from house top 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: works not Come hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: Christen and I'm Caroline, and today I'm gonna talk about men. 4 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: We're gonna talk about rejection, and we're going to talk 5 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: about how on Mine dating offers documentary proof the guys 6 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:33,160 Speaker 1: fell and students. You have a hard time getting turned 7 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: down sometimes? Heck, yeah, the internet is sort of a 8 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 1: scary landscape. It is. And should we go ahead and 9 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:45,160 Speaker 1: offer a disclaimer that, yes, some women have a hard 10 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:50,639 Speaker 1: time with rejection sometimes as well, and overreact getting turned down, 11 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: especially if you're being sexually turned down. Well, rejection is hard. 12 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: Rejection is the worst. Rejecting is pretty bad too, But 13 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: I mean it can rejection of any kind can really sting, 14 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 1: and and that is not a gendered thing. It's a 15 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: fact of life. Rejection is the worst, and we hate it. 16 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: We all struggle with it. But there are some things 17 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 1: that put certain people at risk of being a bigger 18 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: jerk than other people when it comes to rejection. Yeah, 19 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: I mean, this is a particular pattern when it comes 20 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: to straight dating and especially straight online dating, although it 21 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: is more of a thing of straight guys dating. I 22 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:36,680 Speaker 1: should say, because the recipient of the offer, whether it's 23 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: to you know, have a drink bought, or a date 24 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: or sex or whatever. Um, she can be of any 25 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: orientation whatsoever. It's really more you know, straight guys processing 26 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 1: being turned down and what God is thinking about. This 27 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: whole thing was an incident that happened on the Internet 28 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: in late August. Yeah. I was actually on vacation when 29 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: this happened, and I just remember seeing, um, my internet, 30 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: my personal internet, blowing up over it. So BuzzFeed writer 31 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: and comedian Grace Spellman got a series of tweets and 32 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: Facebook messages from this guy, Ben Shane, who is a 33 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: former Harry Potter podcast host and who's also the co 34 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: founder of the website fem Inspire. He was clearly trying 35 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: to charm miss Spellman, and uh he I guess it's 36 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: an understatement to say that he didn't really charm her. Yeah, 37 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: the whole incident was kind of bizarre because they had 38 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 1: friended each other on Facebook nine years ago when Shane 39 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 1: was hosting this podcast called muggle Cast which was super 40 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: popular um and Spellman was a fan, So they became 41 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 1: friends on Facebook, but they were weren't in contact whatsoever. 42 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: So this time in August was the first time he 43 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 1: was messaging her verse so totally out of the blue, 44 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: and at first he was full of praise. So in 45 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: one Facebook message he sent her, he said, you do 46 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: a remarkable job of making your quirky personality shine through online. 47 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: It's hyperactively beautiful. And to to this, Spellman says, thanks, 48 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 1: no thanks, I've got a boyfriend, wish you well turn 49 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: him down politely. Well, he was not too happy about that. No, 50 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: that would be also another understatement. He responded with a 51 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 1: slew of of not so nice messages, including just because 52 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: you work at BuzzFeed doesn't mean you're good. Good luck 53 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: finding meaning and all of that garbage you call content, 54 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: and he also, I mean, he got more personal than that, 55 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: and he just wouldn't stop. He was contacting her on 56 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: all sorts of platforms just to tell her that she 57 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,119 Speaker 1: was the worst. Basically, yeah, I mean, because it really 58 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: exploded when she publicized the private, incessant private messaging that 59 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: he had been doing. And then of course that only 60 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:11,119 Speaker 1: fanned his his outrage, and at one point he wrote 61 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: her an email saying, I was so angry and offended 62 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 1: I wrote a draft putting you in your place, but 63 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: then he decided against it and wrote her this email instead. 64 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: But what was interesting to see was this white Knight 65 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: turn that it took when he issued a press statement 66 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: touting his fem Inspire cred saying I've done more for 67 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: the cause of advancing women's rights than any of the 68 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: people who are criticizing me. Um. Because this is after 69 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: Grace Spellman publicized this incident to her large Twitter following, 70 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:48,679 Speaker 1: and people kind of came out of the woodwork saying, 71 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 1: either what a creed, but also this has happened to 72 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 1: me before, and also, yeah, this is why he you know, 73 00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: I left them Inspire, or why he is not on 74 00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:04,039 Speaker 1: our podcasts anymore, etcetera. It does seem to be fair 75 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: that Ben Shane has some personal issues going on that 76 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: have led him to separate from other people in his 77 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: professional life, and that perhaps that behavior is why he's 78 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 1: no longer with the certain ventures that he had been 79 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 1: with before and what possibly led him to be like 80 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 1: incredibly creepy with Grace Spellman. But that about face, going 81 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: from you're brilliant and hyperactively beautiful and charming too, You're 82 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 1: no good at all. All of your work is garbage 83 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: I mean, that kind of about face is something that 84 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 1: we see happen so often anecdotally, but now documented via 85 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:47,480 Speaker 1: online dating. And this whole incident prompted Jessica roy Over 86 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: at the Cut to relate this to the broader pattern 87 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:56,600 Speaker 1: of straight guys, in particular fellas we love you, but 88 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 1: straight guys not wanting to take no for answer. She writes, 89 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:05,479 Speaker 1: the whole exchange is pretty emblematic of the inherent difficulties 90 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 1: of rejecting men, both online and off. Women are frequently 91 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: made to tow a line between being polite enough not 92 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 1: to set off a suitor, but not so polite that 93 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 1: their manners are interpreted as flirting. And when I read that, 94 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: I could immediately relate to what she was saying. It 95 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: totally resonated. Yeah, and it resonated with Spellman. She agreed. 96 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 1: She says, you can't win in these types of situations. 97 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: Even if you're polite in your rejection, they'll demand that 98 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: you tell them why you did it. It's just a 99 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 1: mixture of entitlement and the fragility of ego, which, by 100 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: the way, as we will get into it a little bit, 101 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:43,280 Speaker 1: is backed up by research. Spellman speaks the truth. She 102 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: goes on to say, because you don't know how they're 103 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: going to handle it, you don't know if you should 104 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: be afraid or not. So the result is this catch 105 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:55,840 Speaker 1: twenty two that comes up often of guys asking for 106 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: women to be straightforward and honest with them, which is 107 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: totally fair. That is a very reasonable request. Who wants 108 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: to be let on? Answer nobody unless you are just 109 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 1: a sucker for pain. But if she is in fact straightforward, 110 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: you can then be punished for being too straightforward. Then 111 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: you're a jerk or a word that we you know, 112 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: can't really say on the podcast. Um, and we should acknowledge. Yeah, 113 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: I mean some women do lead guys on. Some women 114 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: do put men in holding patterns of you know, wanting 115 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: their companionship but not wanting to take it to a 116 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 1: relationship level of sort of like I'm gonna, you know, 117 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: float on you for a little bit until I find 118 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: a guy that I do want to date. That does happen, 119 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: And that's not an okay pattern either. Um. But when 120 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: I made a YouTube video about this whole thing, the 121 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: comments were split between guys saying he would just be straightforward, 122 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 1: be honest and girls saying when I was honest and straightforward. 123 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 1: I got so much blowback from it and sprinkled in 124 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: that too. A lot of anecdotes from girls dealing with 125 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: guys not taking no for an answer in the sense 126 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: of if you say you're just not interested, that's really 127 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: not sufficient. They want to know why. They want an explanation, 128 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: and typically the only explanations that shut it down completely 129 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: are I have a boyfriend, or you hold up your 130 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 1: hand to show off an engagement ring or a wedding band, 131 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: and that will usually get them to stop. Which is 132 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:40,679 Speaker 1: interesting how the primary way to get a guy to 133 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 1: take no for an answer is not for you to 134 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: say no, but rather for you to present another man 135 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 1: next to you, either literally or figuratively. Well, it seems 136 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: that that's the only way to put a stop to 137 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: a sense of entitlement to you, access to you. I am. 138 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 1: I had an awkward him in college when a friend 139 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,319 Speaker 1: of mine told me that he had feelings for me, 140 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: and when I responded compassionate, I mean, he we've been 141 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: friends for years. When I responded very you know, compassionately 142 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 1: that like I understand, and I'm really sorry, but I 143 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: don't feel the same way, like I love you as 144 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:24,959 Speaker 1: a friend. We've been friends for so long, I just 145 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 1: am not on that same romantic wavelength. He got very upset. 146 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 1: I got very upset. We talked and we I thought 147 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: made up, but then when he offered to like take 148 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 1: me out to dinner for tacos to let things blow over, 149 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:41,959 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, good, like things are back on track. 150 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 1: It was actually a ruse because he had taken me 151 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:48,959 Speaker 1: out for tacos to demand an explanation of why I 152 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: would not date him, saying that everything we do and 153 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 1: we hang out together is the same thing that couples 154 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: would do or that a girlfriend and a boyfriend would do, 155 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:59,439 Speaker 1: so why can't you just be my girlfriend? And it 156 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 1: made me really sad because it made me realize that 157 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 1: he must be feeling really powerless in our friendship if 158 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: he's telling me that I need to change the way 159 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: that I feel and change but I'm doing to come 160 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 1: over to his viewpoint of things. The old Taco ruse, 161 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 1: Carol Taco ruse. And the thing is, so many of 162 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: us have stories like that of having to deal with 163 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 1: what happens when when someone catches feelings. But this whole conversation, 164 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: especially when we look at in the context of online 165 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: dating and more of the hook up culture side of things. 166 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,959 Speaker 1: It's not so much catching feelings, it's more wanting to 167 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: catch bodies. And if you cannot catch that body, then 168 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: you will set a series a very mean text messages 169 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: or okay Cupid messages that completely, you know, turn your 170 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: attraction on a dime, and suddenly this woman is just 171 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 1: the worst thing. Ever. It's so weird to look at 172 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: these messages because there are plenty of blogs and things 173 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 1: like that that now post them for all to see, 174 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: and it's so weird to see, like, Hey, you're so hot, 175 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 1: I want to date you. I'm being very euphemistic with 176 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: what I say, um and the minute the woman's like 177 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: no thanks, so she doesn't respond, the guy goes immediately 178 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: to well, you're ugly and fat anyway, and I don't 179 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:27,599 Speaker 1: want to date you, and nobody else wants to date you, 180 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: quote unquote date you, so just never contact me again. 181 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: It's like, whoa were you just having a completely different 182 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:38,359 Speaker 1: conversation than I Wait, I thought women were the crazy ones. Caroline. 183 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: What happened? Yeah? The fact that the Daily Dot published 184 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:47,439 Speaker 1: guidelines for dudes getting rejected on tender that included quote 185 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 1: once someone makes it clear they're not interested in talking. 186 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:53,319 Speaker 1: Do you stop talking to them? Kind of points out 187 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:58,079 Speaker 1: that this is something that happens now. I'm sure that 188 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: your patients, if you are a straight dude, in these 189 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: kinds of online dating scenarios can wear very thin because 190 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: it is more of a woman's game, a street woman's 191 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: game with online dating, because of the whole narratives, the 192 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 1: broader social narratives as men as the pursuers, women as 193 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 1: the recipients of a gentleman's attention. Um, and a lot 194 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 1: of times guys do have to deal with a lot 195 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:26,599 Speaker 1: of rejection, which we're going to talk about more in 196 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 1: just a minute. Um, but it's Alexandra Tweetings by Philippe 197 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: Instagram account illustrates repeatedly the reactions to this online dating 198 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:45,079 Speaker 1: rejection are so severe, so many times. Yeah, and I 199 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:48,319 Speaker 1: mean yeah, that might come out of a place of 200 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:52,679 Speaker 1: anger or online anonymity making it easier to be like, well, 201 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: screw you, lady, but that doesn't make it any less horrifying. Uh. 202 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: Tweeting writing in Miss magazine says that is creating by Philip, 203 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 1: which of course is a takeoff of by Felicia from Friday. Uh. 204 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,079 Speaker 1: It has become a parent that a standard trajectory of 205 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 1: discourse with men online is this man hits on woman, 206 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: woman rejects or ignores him. Man lashes out with insults 207 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 1: or even threats. Now we should say that this Instagram 208 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: account is one of those social media accounts that displays 209 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 1: in full glory, uh, the interactions online between men and 210 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: women on dating sites tender, Okay, keepid what what have you? Um? 211 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: Basically showing screen grabs of these text or email conversations 212 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: that more often than not are completely one thousand percent gross. Yeah, 213 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 1: they don't. They don't end well by phelipe, they don't 214 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:50,959 Speaker 1: end well at all. There was even one where a 215 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: guy was sending messages to a girl young enough to 216 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: be his daughter, and she was like, hey, I am fourteen. 217 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: You have to leave me alone. Granted's sub question what 218 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: side is she on that she's fourteen? Anyway? He was like, oh, well, 219 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 1: my bad, like no disrespect, have a nice day. He 220 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:09,839 Speaker 1: immediately comes back and it's like, well you're gonna be 221 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 1: fat when you grow up anyway, So just yeah, like 222 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:15,839 Speaker 1: what what why do you need to do that? I 223 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 1: don't know what's power? The power grab? Um? Yeah, tweet 224 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 1: and writes that she started it to one commiserate with 225 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: other women who are dealing with this so commonly too, 226 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: to show guys and what it's like to be a 227 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: woman online. We have talked a lot on the podcast 228 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 1: before about online harassment targeted at women and three to 229 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: quote expose the problematic entitlement some men feel they need 230 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: to exert over women in general. And she did also 231 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: note in an interview with BuzzFeed that Yeah, online dating 232 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: is often wretched for guys because they do have to 233 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 1: often message a lot of women you got. You gotta 234 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: swipe a lot to get a match, and even if 235 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: you do get a match, it doesn't guarantee that that 236 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 1: attraction is going to be sustained. Well, I mean, I 237 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 1: think I think it's wretched for for everyone involved, because 238 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: there's plenty of anecdotes about guys setting up accounts pretending 239 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: to be women and men. There was one guy interviewed 240 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: in one of these articles we read where he was like, 241 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: I set up five women and five men as fake accounts, 242 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: and before I could even log back off, the women 243 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: had already received hundreds of messages, many of them gross, 244 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: many of them going straight to sex and like freaky 245 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 1: scary stuff at that and like most of the men 246 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 1: had just received absolutely nothing, and so he's like, I 247 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: can see how it's demoralizing for everyone involved, because he's like, 248 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 1: some guy might have just emailed one of these women 249 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: to say hi, and if I responded as the woman 250 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: being like, hey, what's up, where do you live or whatever, 251 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: it immediately was like super sexual, super here's what I'm 252 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: gonna do to you. And so yeah, it it immediately 253 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 1: went to like I want to come over and read 254 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: Judith Butler together, drink some tea. Yeah, and do you 255 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: have cats? Yeah? The more the merrier. Let's put on 256 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: our stretchy pants and let's read poetry. I mean, ironically, 257 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: though this is a little bit of a tangent, but 258 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: ironically Tinder like the people who run Tinder had a 259 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: bi Philip level melt down in response to this vanity 260 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: Fair piece that came out a couple of months ago 261 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: on Tinder hookups, this whole Tinder hookup culture by Nancy 262 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 1: Joe's sales, who did not paint Tinder usage, I should 263 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 1: say in the most positive light, it was. It made 264 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: a lot of guys who use it come off very 265 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 1: smarmie and it was a you know, one of those 266 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 1: bigger pieces about oh what are we doing with this 267 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: hookup culture and ruining everything and women are just being 268 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 1: dragged along in the mud essentially. And in response though 269 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: to this very buzzed about vanity fair peace, Tender spouted 270 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: out thirty tweets in quick succession, including one that said quote, 271 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: if you want to try to terrace down with one 272 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 1: sided journalism, well that's your prerogative, which is sort of 273 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: reminiscent of the kinds of by Phillip style post rejection 274 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: messages that women get, I mean, in folks, if you 275 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: haven't seen this, I do recommend you google it because 276 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 1: it's incredible to watch this, this Tender by Phillip melt 277 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:38,719 Speaker 1: down happening on the internet. It almost felt unreal. Well, okay, 278 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: then maybe you can explain There have been plenty of 279 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 1: things online or in the media about how, like, you know, 280 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: apps like Tender or Signify the end of Times that 281 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:52,120 Speaker 1: basically like no one's ever going to fall in love 282 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: and have families again because Tender is ruining life for everyone. 283 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 1: What was it about Nancy Joe Sales? Do you know 284 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: that it caused Tender to get so upset, as I say, Tender, 285 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 1: like it's a person, but the Tender Twitter person to 286 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 1: get so upset because she painted because Tinder was positioned 287 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: in her piece as instigating a post dating apocalypse essentially, 288 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 1: and you know, talks a lot about how these guys 289 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: that she interviewed in her story manipulate Tinder to basically 290 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,679 Speaker 1: get as much sex as they want and treat women 291 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: in real life very very poorly. And it's just that 292 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 1: insto sex hookup culture that is even more troubling, it 293 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: seems like to Sales than the analog hookup culture, where 294 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: I mean, at least you're meeting at a party and 295 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 1: one of the things Tender, or at least this person 296 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: tweeting on behalf of Tender was most upset about was 297 00:18:54,840 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 1: how Sales did not interview anyone with Tinder for the piece, 298 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: to which Nancy Joe Sales on Twitter got the last 299 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:08,440 Speaker 1: word in this whole Tinder Twitter melt down, saying ha ha, 300 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 1: this piece wasn't even about Tinder at all. So you're 301 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 1: saying that, um, miss Vanity Fair hurt Mr tinders feelings 302 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: and Mr Tinder just lashed out. It was like Miss 303 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: Vanity Fair you can go you aren't my type anyway, Yeah, yeah, 304 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: I mean it really, it really was like that. And listeners, 305 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 1: we will be posting a link to that Vanity Fair 306 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: piece over at stuff I've Never told you dot com 307 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 1: on the podcast post for this, So if you haven't 308 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: read it, I highly recommend you go check it out. 309 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: If you are familiar with it, um and want us 310 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,679 Speaker 1: to do a podcast, look at it, just let us 311 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,920 Speaker 1: know because it's I mean, there's a lot to talk 312 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 1: about in there. I love these weird, personified, anthropomorphized versions 313 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,679 Speaker 1: of websites of dating as yeah, because I feel like Tinder, 314 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: who's obviously the hipper millennie, all on a smartphone tweeting things, 315 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 1: whereas e Harmonies at home on just on like a 316 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 1: rotary telephone calling you up, wondering why you're not answering. Oh, 317 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: we're gonna get so many letters from the harmony users. 318 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,639 Speaker 1: And this is all it's all funny to joke about, 319 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: you know, if you if you can't laugh, you'll cry, 320 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: that kind of thing. But there is a darker, more 321 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 1: serious side to all of this, because it's not as 322 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 1: if this behavior and this language and these reactions are 323 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 1: limited to the Internet to the online world. This is 324 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: very real stuff. This, this aggression, this masculinity threat, all 325 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 1: of this is very real. And the website when women 326 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:49,159 Speaker 1: refuse over on Tumbler, highlights that, Yeah, I mean this 327 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:54,160 Speaker 1: Tumbler is essentially a collection of stories and graphic images 328 00:20:54,600 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: trigger warning of women who have enduredmestic abuse from either 329 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:09,359 Speaker 1: partners or strangers, you know, especially in context of rejecting 330 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,440 Speaker 1: them in one way or another. And and it really 331 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: does get to that quote problematic entitlement that Tween says 332 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:22,639 Speaker 1: helped inspire by Philip I mean, and and too. That 333 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 1: kind of darker, darker, darker entitlement was also echoed in 334 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:36,880 Speaker 1: the manifesto written by Elliott Roger, who murdered women partially 335 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:41,479 Speaker 1: because he was so angry that he could not sleep 336 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: with them, he did not have access to them in 337 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 1: the way he felt like he should. Yeah, he felt 338 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: that women should be afraid of him. Well, that women 339 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 1: should be afraid of men and should be submissive to 340 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:57,880 Speaker 1: them completely. And obviously that is a worst case scenario 341 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 1: kind of example. But ultimately it is all connected because 342 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: there are these common threads that run through that. And 343 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about those threads and the academic 344 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,479 Speaker 1: research that's been done on them. When we come right 345 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 1: back from a quick bread, so we don't have just 346 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 1: Instagram accounts and anecdotes from our dating lives to base 347 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: this whole conversation on. There has actually been a ton 348 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: of research on romantic and sexual rejection and how that 349 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 1: often is processed through gendered lenses, as as most things 350 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: are eventually processed through. Yeah, there was study called the 351 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:54,880 Speaker 1: Prevalence and Nature of Unrequited Love, and it pointed out 352 00:22:55,480 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 1: that unrequited love and crushing on people was four times 353 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 1: more frequent than quote unquote equal love, that deep, actual, 354 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 1: real relationship where two people know that they're in a 355 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:13,640 Speaker 1: relationship with each other and love each other. Um. Researchers 356 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 1: said that unrequited love was not a good simulation of 357 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: true romantic love, but an inferior approximation of that ideal, 358 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 1: and that it's more common among people with an anxious 359 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:29,920 Speaker 1: or ambivalent attachment style. And this is to establish the 360 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 1: fact that rejection is gonna happen. I mean, this is 361 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: more the rule than the exception. Love and relationships are 362 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 1: the exception. Otherwise, I mean, how would we really get 363 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 1: on with our lives that we didn't have rejection happening 364 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 1: all the time. Yeah, But in calling it not a 365 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,400 Speaker 1: good simulation of true romantic love, they're sort of explaining 366 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 1: the fact that it's so much more common than that 367 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,400 Speaker 1: equal love, and it can be so much more intense. 368 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: It can stir up all of these feelings of inferiority 369 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: and anxiety, and so I think that it's absolutely important 370 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: to talk about that in relation to online dating, where 371 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 1: so much rejection happens. Yeah, and these similar kinds of 372 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 1: studies have found that men do tend to experience romantic 373 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:23,159 Speaker 1: rejection more often than women, quite possibly because again of 374 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:28,159 Speaker 1: this heteronormative role social role. As the pursuer, men are 375 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,920 Speaker 1: more expected to put themselves in positions where they could 376 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:36,400 Speaker 1: be rejected compared to women. But the thing is, while 377 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 1: rejection is no fun, getting rejected no fun. Of course, 378 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 1: studies have also shown that it's also painful to do 379 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:50,719 Speaker 1: the rejecting. And this goes back to a study published 380 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 1: in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology that looked 381 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 1: at both sides of unrequited love, of the person who 382 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,440 Speaker 1: was having to process receive it and the person who's 383 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 1: dolling it out, and the authors wrote that rejectors depicted 384 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: themselves as morally innocent but still felt guilty about hurting someone, 385 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:18,400 Speaker 1: but they also depicted the would be lovers persistent efforts 386 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 1: as intrusive and annoying, and in an article about this 387 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,400 Speaker 1: in The New York Times, one of the study authors, 388 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: Roy Baumeister, described this experience of doing the romantic rejection 389 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 1: as agony, and also that if you're looking at rejecting 390 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: versus being rejected, that it's actually the people doing the 391 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: rejecting who remember that incident more than the people who 392 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,880 Speaker 1: were rejected. I mean, obviously that depends and then other 393 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,399 Speaker 1: factors go into that, but it seems like that strange 394 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,920 Speaker 1: experience of having to that strange and painful experience of 395 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,399 Speaker 1: having to tell someone who's being very persistent that you're no, 396 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: I'm not interested, it really kind of sticks a few 397 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 1: and so it's interesting to read about how people on 398 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,880 Speaker 1: either side of this experience process it differently in order 399 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: to sort of justify their own behavior. And there's also 400 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: to this issue of rejectors, especially if there's an established 401 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: relationship between two people. This is probably happening more in 402 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 1: real life versus online dating um, but rejectors being expected 403 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 1: to not only do the rejecting, but also comfort the 404 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:34,120 Speaker 1: other person's wounded pride. But speaking of online dating, though, 405 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: that can explain this common demand for an explanation, because 406 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: that is a source of comfort. That's their closure. Tell 407 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 1: me why I'm not good enough, the old taco ruse, 408 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:50,199 Speaker 1: the taco ruse. Caroline Bombaster also found that men are 409 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: more likely than women to fall in love with someone 410 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,120 Speaker 1: who does not return their feelings. And that's also another 411 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 1: like real life as opposed to online thing um. And 412 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 1: echoing that is Philip Shaver at the University of California Davis, 413 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 1: who said that the people who are particularly prone to 414 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 1: falling in love with people who will reject them are 415 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 1: people who are so anxious about being loved that they 416 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 1: drive their partners away through being too clingy. That anxious attachment, 417 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,959 Speaker 1: that anxious attachment that the person who's doing the attaching 418 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: sees us normal and just love me. I just want 419 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,120 Speaker 1: to be loved, and the rejector feels like, God, you're 420 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 1: pan a creep. I've been that person. I've been that 421 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,920 Speaker 1: creep before, Caroline. I will own that and that creep though, 422 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 1: issue is something that we could do an entire podcast 423 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 1: on because I feel like, especially in today's um dating landscape, 424 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 1: it seems like and also from what I've heard from 425 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: guys directly, that being rejected also comes sometimes with this 426 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 1: underlying panic of of yeah, okay, I'm not going to 427 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 1: be able to, you know, ever get with that person. 428 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,879 Speaker 1: But also, oh my god, does she think I'm a creep? 429 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,399 Speaker 1: Being labeled as a creep? I feel like is so 430 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 1: so so triggering, you know, of anxiety and panic for 431 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 1: for dudes, because that's almost the worst thing that you 432 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 1: can be called. Well yeah, and it's also the frustration 433 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,119 Speaker 1: and fear of being misunderstood, like no, no, no, I 434 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 1: was just trying to compliment you and ask you out 435 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 1: and and be nice and kind and I just you know, 436 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 1: you're beautiful enough. But I don't want to be considered 437 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:34,680 Speaker 1: a creep. I'm not a creep. I'm just I just 438 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 1: like you, just like you. Um So, we already have 439 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 1: this complicated stew on the staffe, but then when you 440 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 1: add a dash of this thing called masculinity threat, you 441 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 1: have an emotional powder keg really waiting to happen. So, 442 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: masculinity threat is a sociological term referring to some men's 443 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: spectations of how they should fulfill hegemonic masculine roles. So, 444 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: masculinity threat is a sociological term referring to when a 445 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: guy feels like his idea of what masculinity is and 446 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: his role in that is being challenged in some kind 447 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: of way, his masculinity being threatened. I guess you could say, yeah, 448 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: so that idea of I'm the breadwinner, I am strong, 449 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 1: I must be strong and stoic for my woman, and 450 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 1: of course I have to and am entitled to have 451 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: access to women's bodies sexually. So what happens when masculinity 452 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 1: is threatened, Well, you tend to get over compensation, which 453 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: is not that surprising. Um. There was a study in 454 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 1: social psychology that found that when men's masculinity is threatened, 455 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 1: they go overboard in distancing themselves from femininity or feminine 456 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: attributes or women and end up amping up the masculinity 457 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 1: the browishness uh the study authors right. Additionally, threatened men 458 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 1: claimed more stereotypically masculine attributes such as height, number of 459 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: past sexual relationships, and aggressiveness, which is interesting because your 460 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: height is just your height. And when these men's masculinity 461 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 1: was threatened or when they felt threatened, they said that 462 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 1: they were taller than they actually were. And so masculinity 463 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: is this sort of social power, and when that power 464 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 1: is endangered, men who are threatened will react, oftentimes in 465 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 1: an aggressive manner. Now all of that, too, though, is 466 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 1: predicated on how closely a man identifies with hegemonic masculine roles. 467 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 1: Because there are plenty of guys who wear this masculine 468 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: threat is not going to be as big of a 469 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 1: deal for them because they don't see their role in 470 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 1: this you know, kind of hegemonic box right there. Um, 471 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: But for the many, many men out there who do, 472 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 1: this is a very real thing. And studies have also 473 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 1: found that provoking masculinity threat also diminishes men's perceptions of 474 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 1: sexual assault and violence as well. So again we start 475 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: to see these common threads along the spectrum of just 476 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 1: you know, feelings getting hurt that's totally understandable, to violent outrage. Yeah. Well, 477 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: there was also a study in the American Journal of 478 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: Sociology that found that the more testosterone a man had, 479 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 1: the more overcompensating behaviors he exhibited when told that his 480 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: survey answers indicated femininity in this particular study, Uh, when 481 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 1: men had less testosterone, they didn't really exhibit any real 482 00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 1: overcompensation behavior to speak of. But key to that threat 483 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: it is that men with more testosterone aren't necessarily walking 484 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 1: around being macho and aggressive of the time, twenty four 485 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 1: hours a day. It was it was the threat. It 486 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 1: was the telling, hey, you your your survey answers when 487 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 1: we asked about attributes of your life and behavior, they're 488 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 1: they're really indicated femininity. And that's when the guys with 489 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 1: a lot more testosterone than the other men went into 490 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: those overcompensating behaviors. They're like, why would you tell that 491 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: to a six ft five men? Impossible? And this can 492 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 1: also happen with women in terms of femininity threat where, uh, 493 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 1: if you identify with those feminine roles and you feel 494 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 1: like that is being threatened, which would be people thinking 495 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,440 Speaker 1: that you are too strong or aggressive than you might 496 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 1: minimize yourself or your role in some kind of way 497 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 1: to compensate, which equally is not all women, right, Um, 498 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 1: it's just a particular subset of women who would react 499 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 1: negatively to being told that they're too strong or too masculine. 500 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 1: So where though, is all of this coming from if 501 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 1: we're talking about masculinity threat um. So Michael Kimmel wrote 502 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 1: a whole book about this um and he has built 503 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: a whole career actually on on studying masculinity UM. And 504 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 1: in his book Angry White Men Masculinity at the End 505 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 1: of an Era, he refers to the erosion of white 506 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 1: male privilege, particularly in the US as a quote aggrieved 507 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 1: entitlement basically of guys today not benefiting as much from 508 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 1: the privileges bestowed to say, their dads or their granddads. Yeah. 509 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 1: And in the same article that was looking at Michael 510 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: Kimmel's research, UH sociologists Tristan Bridges and Terrely tober So 511 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 1: that men are likely to turn to violence when they 512 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 1: perceived themselves to be otherwise unable to stake a claim 513 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 1: to a mass skill in gender identity. And of course 514 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 1: this article is very specifically talking about gun violence in 515 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 1: the United States as it relates to masculine aggression, but 516 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: it does seem to relate back to the aggressive responses 517 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 1: that can happen when rejection happens online or in dating scenarios, right, 518 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:24,759 Speaker 1: because again this does seem to echo common demands for 519 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 1: those explanations as to why a girl doesn't want to 520 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 1: talk to you, go on a date with, sleep with, etcetera. 521 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 1: Them And the fact of the matter is, some guys 522 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 1: are just jerks, just like some women are just jerks. 523 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:44,800 Speaker 1: But there does seem to be something to the relationship 524 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:51,399 Speaker 1: between masculinity threat and this pattern of rejection and how 525 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 1: we all process rejection, and also how that relates to 526 00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:02,279 Speaker 1: to this headeronormative dating dying dynamic that has really not 527 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 1: kept up with gender progression and which does no one 528 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: any good exactly, it does well, I mean I say that, 529 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:13,880 Speaker 1: but of course the people who benefit from being on 530 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,759 Speaker 1: the top of the heap, of course they benefit from that. 531 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 1: But for I mean, I would argue that most people 532 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 1: would be better served if we weren't desperately clinging with 533 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,680 Speaker 1: our fingernails sunk in to these ideas that men have 534 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 1: to be a certain way and women have to be 535 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 1: a certain way, and that men deserve x y z 536 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:40,319 Speaker 1: and women need and should give x y z in response. Yeah, 537 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:44,759 Speaker 1: and it just seems like there's something fundamentally broken too 538 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 1: with this structure that we've built up in terms of 539 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:55,799 Speaker 1: straight you know, attraction, sex and pursuit. Because as far 540 00:35:55,880 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 1: as I know, we don't see similar pattern earns. I mean, 541 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 1: of course there are incidents, but similar patterns happening with 542 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:08,800 Speaker 1: LGBT dating. There's not the bi felepe grinder version, you know. 543 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:13,319 Speaker 1: I mean, it just seems to be so so particular too, 544 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 1: how men and women get together. That just gets my 545 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 1: brain turning about what it really means, because clearly this 546 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:28,480 Speaker 1: is not just about tender or online dating. This is 547 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:32,400 Speaker 1: a bigger thing about how men and men and women 548 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 1: relate to each other. I think. Yeah, and the idea 549 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:40,759 Speaker 1: that still that persists, that people don't believe that no 550 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:45,560 Speaker 1: means no. And in pop culture too, we have loved 551 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 1: stories of the underdog guy who finally gets his reward 552 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,840 Speaker 1: at some point for you know, hanging in there with 553 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,680 Speaker 1: the girl who's dating the you know, the rich guy 554 00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 1: who's more handsome but ultimately he'll win her, or just 555 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 1: wearing a woman down, which really only feeds into this dysfunction. Well, 556 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 1: one researcher quoted was it in the New York Times 557 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:13,440 Speaker 1: article about this, pointed to all those movies and said, 558 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 1: like listen, Statistically speaking and scientifically, people date and have 559 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:26,160 Speaker 1: relationships with people who are of equivalent attractiveness and life status. 560 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:28,440 Speaker 1: And so that's kind of where you get this idea 561 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 1: of the nice guys of okay Cupid, for instance, who 562 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,160 Speaker 1: voiced their entitlement to like a you know, like a gazelle, 563 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,759 Speaker 1: like a freaking Cindy Crawford on okay Cupid, that they 564 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 1: just deserve to have this woman pay attention to them. 565 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,440 Speaker 1: And so why won't you answer me as to why 566 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 1: you won't date me? But so, how do we change this? 567 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,160 Speaker 1: How do we go from here? I mean I I 568 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,160 Speaker 1: don't know that you and I sitting here in a 569 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,800 Speaker 1: podcast studio are going to do it. What is it 570 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:03,600 Speaker 1: going to take or will this ever change? Well, i'd 571 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,480 Speaker 1: i'd like to think that one day it might change 572 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:08,720 Speaker 1: and that we can all treat each other like human 573 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:14,839 Speaker 1: people who have feelings, um and respect each other's decisions. UM. 574 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:19,799 Speaker 1: But I don't know. Maybe it's if women talking about 575 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:22,439 Speaker 1: it isn't gonna work, Maybe it's going to take men 576 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,759 Speaker 1: talking to each other about it. Yeah, I mean that 577 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,879 Speaker 1: brings up a quote from Kimmel and Angry White Men. 578 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:34,120 Speaker 1: He said, American men define their masculinity not as much 579 00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,399 Speaker 1: in relation to women, but in relation to each other. 580 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:43,760 Speaker 1: So guys, what's it gonna take. And also, Okay, folks, 581 00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 1: I feel like we have a lot to learn from you, 582 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 1: so please please give us your wisdom. Yeah, because I 583 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 1: know we've heard from, for instance, some of our lesbian 584 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:57,400 Speaker 1: listeners in response to our division of household labor episode 585 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:02,320 Speaker 1: that yes, there is, sure there is a division. Somebody 586 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 1: might like to mow the lawn, somebody like might like 587 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:10,160 Speaker 1: to load the dishwasher kristen um gut um, but that 588 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:15,920 Speaker 1: there's no stereotypical gender role to fall back on, and 589 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 1: so I would imagine it's the same in terms of dating, 590 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 1: with the approach versus the approach e um, that there's 591 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 1: no real script or schema for who should do the approaching, 592 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,400 Speaker 1: who should do the rejecting or the accepting. And also too, 593 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,719 Speaker 1: in terms of hookups, gay men to take such a 594 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 1: more straightforward approach to it as well of sex being 595 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 1: sex do you want it or not? Done? And done 596 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:47,000 Speaker 1: as well well, sure, because when it's a straight man 597 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:50,360 Speaker 1: and a straight woman looking for each other on Tinder, 598 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:54,640 Speaker 1: for instance, Mr tinder Um, you also have to deal 599 00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:56,600 Speaker 1: with all of the social stuff that says women who 600 00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 1: just want sex on Tinder are gross or that they're 601 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:03,000 Speaker 1: you know, sluts. So you've got all sorts of layers 602 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:08,839 Speaker 1: of social grossness um putting pressure on everyone. We got 603 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:13,120 Speaker 1: some baggage, and talk about some relationship baggage will help 604 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:16,080 Speaker 1: us start through it. Folks. We're really curious to hear 605 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:20,200 Speaker 1: from women who have experienced this online. Does this issue 606 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:24,400 Speaker 1: resonate with you, especially in your online dating experience and 607 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,920 Speaker 1: just generally everyone, what are your thoughts on this? Mom 608 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,280 Speaker 1: Stuff at house stuff works dot com is our email address. 609 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:32,560 Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or 610 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,480 Speaker 1: messages on Facebook. And we've got a couple of messages 611 00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 1: to share with you right now. And I've gotta let 612 00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:48,960 Speaker 1: her here. Caroline from listener Andy, who writes, thank you, 613 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,480 Speaker 1: thank you, thank you. We're doing an episode on Asian fetishes. 614 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:54,600 Speaker 1: Is this something I deal with from time to time 615 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:56,799 Speaker 1: and it's hard to explain to others why it's an 616 00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,960 Speaker 1: issue or why it's creepy. You guys mentioned in the 617 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,600 Speaker 1: podcast that having an Asian fetish is similar to merely 618 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:06,520 Speaker 1: having a type. This is an argument I hear a lot. 619 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,759 Speaker 1: The difference between having a fetish and a type comes 620 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:11,960 Speaker 1: down to whether you can see the person as an 621 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:16,080 Speaker 1: individual or merely as a member of their group. For instance, 622 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,480 Speaker 1: Kristen said she's only dated white guys. But Kristen, do 623 00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,320 Speaker 1: you immediately hit on every white guy you meet because 624 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:27,880 Speaker 1: he's merely white? Answer? Yes, it's exhausting. I'm totally kidding, 625 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,080 Speaker 1: She says. Do you quiz him on his white cultural upbringing? 626 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,880 Speaker 1: Do you ask him where he buys his silverware? I've 627 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:39,120 Speaker 1: been asked where I buy my chopsticks. Everyone has a type. 628 00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,560 Speaker 1: Mine is lanky, pale, nerdy guys, but that doesn't mean 629 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:46,440 Speaker 1: I find them interchangeable. Once again, I appreciate you doing 630 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:49,320 Speaker 1: an episode on an Asian issue. Since we are the 631 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 1: quote model minority, it's sometimes hard to convince people that 632 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:57,040 Speaker 1: racism against Asians exists or matters. While it's true that 633 00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,880 Speaker 1: in America, racism against Asians tends to be less of, 634 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,040 Speaker 1: I want the racism towards other minorities. That doesn't mean 635 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,840 Speaker 1: it's not a problem and that it shouldn't be examined. 636 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:10,080 Speaker 1: Thanks for making this world a better place. Um, thank you, Andy. 637 00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 1: That last line to escape me goose bumps. Well, I 638 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:16,359 Speaker 1: have a letter here from Elizabeth in response to our 639 00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:20,799 Speaker 1: Samurai Women episode, and I just want to say, first 640 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:24,720 Speaker 1: of all, Elizabeth, thank you. Her email is a six page, 641 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:31,200 Speaker 1: essentially really super well written list of corrections, and I 642 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:33,359 Speaker 1: wish I could read the whole thing, that I can't, 643 00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:35,840 Speaker 1: so I want to pull out some points of clarification 644 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:39,920 Speaker 1: that Elizabeth makes, So here we go. She says. I 645 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,160 Speaker 1: posted this on Facebook as well because I felt it 646 00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:44,360 Speaker 1: was too hugely important to be glossed over, and I 647 00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:46,800 Speaker 1: was really hoping other fellow listeners would see it and 648 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:50,799 Speaker 1: catch that. The switch from Shinto religion, two more disparaging 649 00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:55,279 Speaker 1: views of women came from Confucianism and not Buddhism. Both 650 00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:57,759 Speaker 1: were introduced into Japan at the same time and had 651 00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 1: long been tied together in China because of the Chinese 652 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:04,920 Speaker 1: traditional religion, which really meant that Taoism, Buddhism, and Confucianism 653 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:08,840 Speaker 1: were all simultaneously believed in and worked together in unison 654 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:12,239 Speaker 1: to form the belief of the Chinese people. Because of 655 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:15,200 Speaker 1: the strong relation and tied to Confucianism, a lot of 656 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:18,640 Speaker 1: the misogynistic ideas about how evil women were and whether 657 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:22,799 Speaker 1: or not they could obtain enlightenment bled very heavily into Buddhism. 658 00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:25,640 Speaker 1: It's possible that there may have been some not very 659 00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:28,520 Speaker 1: accepting ideas about women in general and Buddhism, but at 660 00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,320 Speaker 1: its core that's not really part of the Buddhist doctrine. 661 00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,440 Speaker 1: She goes on to say, Historically, the more firm that 662 00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:38,279 Speaker 1: Confucianism took root in Japan, the less rights women had. 663 00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:41,320 Speaker 1: Every negative thing you mentioned in your podcast as a 664 00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:45,840 Speaker 1: cultural belief about women, those are all Confucianist beliefs. For 665 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:49,399 Speaker 1: the hay On period. Women being behind closed doors then 666 00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:52,520 Speaker 1: was definitely a Confucian thing in part, but Confucianism didn't 667 00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,480 Speaker 1: have as strong of a hold then. Women had relatively 668 00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:57,200 Speaker 1: a lot of power in the hay On period and 669 00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:59,440 Speaker 1: a lot of social mobility. They were able to get 670 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:01,880 Speaker 1: the means or attract the attention of the right person, 671 00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:05,000 Speaker 1: and being indoors was kind of more of a luxurious 672 00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:08,360 Speaker 1: choice for all parts of the aristocracy, because, as I 673 00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:10,800 Speaker 1: mentioned in my Facebook post, it had to do with labor. 674 00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:13,760 Speaker 1: If you're tanned and go outside a lot, it's because 675 00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,600 Speaker 1: you're poor and you tend to the fields. Your skin darkens. 676 00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:19,880 Speaker 1: Men were allowed to darken a little because they had 677 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,000 Speaker 1: to run the country, so they went out to court. 678 00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:24,880 Speaker 1: Men were also the administrators for the property of the 679 00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,120 Speaker 1: women in their lives, since at this time period women 680 00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:30,200 Speaker 1: were allowed to inherit residences, property, and obtain income in 681 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:33,280 Speaker 1: the form of rice. They held title and core positions. 682 00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:35,719 Speaker 1: But because you didn't literally live in the fields, you 683 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:37,800 Speaker 1: had to send someone to go get your rice for you. 684 00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:40,200 Speaker 1: That was the job of the men, although the most 685 00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:42,640 Speaker 1: elite of men would still have people to do that 686 00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,200 Speaker 1: for them. If you are of low rank, you probably 687 00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:47,400 Speaker 1: have to go do that for yourself because you'd have 688 00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,840 Speaker 1: no other vassals. Low ranking women wouldn't do this just 689 00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:53,160 Speaker 1: because it'd be hard, and honestly, they'd have a better 690 00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:55,160 Speaker 1: life if they tried to become a lady in waiting 691 00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:58,040 Speaker 1: for some prominent figure. So as a social construct, they 692 00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:00,400 Speaker 1: would be encouraged to be indoors more often in as well. 693 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,160 Speaker 1: And of course there Elizabeth is explaining our discussion about 694 00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:08,080 Speaker 1: how over certain periods in Japanese history women were basically 695 00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:10,759 Speaker 1: quote unquote like not allowed to go outside, that they 696 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,040 Speaker 1: it wasn't social acceptable for women to like be out 697 00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:16,560 Speaker 1: and about um, so she's explaining the whole like women 698 00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:19,680 Speaker 1: staying in their rooms thing. She goes on to say, oh, 699 00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:22,080 Speaker 1: and as a general note about loyalty and stuff. It's 700 00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:24,279 Speaker 1: been noted through different parts of Asia that women are 701 00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:26,840 Speaker 1: often believed to be more loyal than men, which is 702 00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:29,799 Speaker 1: also kind of an odd side effect of Confucianism as well. 703 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:32,920 Speaker 1: Confucianism teaches that while you should respect the leaders and 704 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:35,960 Speaker 1: people above you for their ultimate decision, if you believe 705 00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,239 Speaker 1: that they're doing wrong, you're allowed to attempt to set 706 00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:40,719 Speaker 1: them on the correct path. In terms of a leader 707 00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,520 Speaker 1: of vassal type relationship, if you're leaders a jerk, you're 708 00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:46,280 Speaker 1: allowed to quit and find a new allegiance in China 709 00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:48,600 Speaker 1: and practice. I remember from one course that the scholar 710 00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,120 Speaker 1: had apparently remarked about the citizens in a town facing 711 00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:53,640 Speaker 1: the attack from an army. The men ran away while 712 00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:57,000 Speaker 1: the women valiantly killed themselves. Women were also thought of 713 00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:59,000 Speaker 1: as more willing and able to kill themselves because of 714 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,120 Speaker 1: the social pressure put upon them by Confucianism. So because 715 00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:04,080 Speaker 1: they were subjected to so much and expected to be 716 00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:05,920 Speaker 1: loyal to the men in their lives, it was easier 717 00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:08,400 Speaker 1: for them to die for a greater cause, like an 718 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:12,520 Speaker 1: incoming enemy, or even in the case of going into battle. Plus, 719 00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:15,279 Speaker 1: you know, women cheating and all that was highly frowned upon. 720 00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:17,799 Speaker 1: But because men didn't have to adhere to loyalties day 721 00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:20,840 Speaker 1: to day, they would change allegiances easily or would run away. 722 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,560 Speaker 1: So Elizabeth, I'm really sorry I couldn't read your whole email, 723 00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:26,239 Speaker 1: but I do want to thank you for ending it 724 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:29,840 Speaker 1: with anyway. Still love the podcast, and thanks for talking 725 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:32,800 Speaker 1: about all of these subjects, and thanks to all of 726 00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:35,200 Speaker 1: you who have written into us. Mom stuff at house. 727 00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:37,640 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot Com is our email address. You can 728 00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:39,920 Speaker 1: also find links to all of our social media as 729 00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:43,240 Speaker 1: well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, including 730 00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:45,600 Speaker 1: this one with links to our sources so you can 731 00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:48,440 Speaker 1: read all about that tender meltdown we can't get enough of. 732 00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:52,000 Speaker 1: Head on over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot 733 00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:58,160 Speaker 1: com for more on this and thousands of other topics. 734 00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:03,799 Speaker 1: Is it how stuff Works dot com. Thre