WEBVTT - Soft Focus, Semi Hard 0:00:06.000 --> 0:00:10.039 It's October nineteen seventy four, a year since Viva's first 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:14.680 issue hit newsstands, and this issue is significant not just 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:18.560 because it's an anniversary issue, but because at last there 0:00:18.600 --> 0:00:20.840 is a Viva woman at the top of the masthead. 0:00:21.560 --> 0:00:27.000 It's Kathy Keaton. Here's podcaster in journalist Natalie Robamed reading 0:00:27.080 --> 0:00:30.920 Kathy's editor's letter. She'll be reading Kathy throughout the series. 0:00:31.840 --> 0:00:34.800 It's been quite a year, this first year Viva, full 0:00:34.800 --> 0:00:38.519 of action and controversy. We must be the first magazine 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:40.360 in the world to have published a beauty feature on 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:45.240 pubic hairstyles. The Pubic Hair picks an array of Volva 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:48.120 models with hair trimmed to resemble hearts or cut into 0:00:48.159 --> 0:00:51.280 the shape of flames, or by Paul Mitchell before he 0:00:51.320 --> 0:00:53.600 goes on to become one of the most famous hairdressers 0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:58.480 of all time. Kathy continues, in the past, women were 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:02.279 supposed to be turned on by sexual suggestion, and yet 0:01:02.320 --> 0:01:07.520 today we're discovering that women frankly, boldly and actively enjoy 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:12.080 looking at the malebody. By this time, Bob Guccioni has 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:16.240 taken his gold chains and gone mostly home, placing Kathy 0:01:16.360 --> 0:01:20.720 Keaton in charge of Viva and Kathy, Well, she's making 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:24.200 quick work of putting her stamp on the magazine. In 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:29.360 this editor's letter, she's announcing a big change. See Kathy's 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:32.200 on a bit of a crusade. In the coming months, 0:01:32.400 --> 0:01:35.840 Viva will be exploring men in an infinite variety of ways. 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:42.080 Undoubtedly will be called outrighteous. We're not. We just don't 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:48.080 believe in censorship. Kathy's new directive, which will reveal more 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:51.800 fully in this episode, comes just as the Viva editors 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:55.320 have found their footing working under Bob making their secret 0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:59.400 magazine within the magazine. But now they're under new pressure 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:03.320 to get with Hathy's sexy program and also, like with 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:06.480 any new boss, sort out who she is and what 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:12.440 it is she wants. So, who really was Kathy Keaton 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:16.520 this enigma of seventies femininity? And could she put her 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:20.360 own successful stamp on Viva and lead the Viva editors 0:02:20.360 --> 0:02:29.680 in making the smart feminist magazine they desperately want From 0:02:29.760 --> 0:02:33.639 Cooking Media and iHeartMedia. I'm Jennifer Romalini and this is Stiffed. 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:53.000 Episode three, Soft Focus Semihard, Act one, The Viva Woman. 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:04.840 I'm Arlie Hurson and my guest is Kathy Keaton, and 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:07.520 we here in her beautiful townhouse in New York City. 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:10.960 Thank you. That's journalist Arlene Herson introducing Kathy in an 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:14.440 interview for her cable access show. Kathy and Bob were 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:17.640 kind of regulars on Arlene Show. This interview is from 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:20.799 the early eighties and takes place in the home Kathy 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:24.360 shares with Bob. Kathy is sitting in an Italian Baroque 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:27.960 style chair, which looks like a throne. She's a slim, 0:03:28.160 --> 0:03:31.679 icy blonde, her postures straight. There's not a hair out 0:03:31.720 --> 0:03:34.760 of place. You have a wonderful life now, a fulfilling career, 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:39.320 beautiful house. You met Bob Guccioni in London. He actually 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:42.400 changed your whole life. He had a crazy idea what 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:44.600 made you Watson? It was a very good idea. I mean, 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:47.040 I wasn't in the publishing industry, so I didn't know 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:50.400 from anything. I was a daunser. Now Kathy might not 0:03:50.480 --> 0:03:53.320 know much when she first meets Bob, but like him, 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:56.720 she has innate business instincts and she trusts her gut 0:03:57.280 --> 0:03:58.800 and to me it might have a lot of sense. 0:03:58.800 --> 0:04:01.320 It was very launch a con and so I thought, well, 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:04.480 I really have nothing to lose anyway, and Kathy didn't 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:07.040 have much to lose. She'd grown up poor in the 0:04:07.120 --> 0:04:10.560 nineteen forties on a farm in South Africa. Like Bob, 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:15.160 her family was uneducated, working class. Throughout her childhood, Kathy's 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:20.520 parents struggled financially, and Kathy struggled too. You had polio 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:24.640 as a child, so many people that I know today. Unfortunately, 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:27.560 there are several that I know who had polio's children 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:31.520 have life lasting effects from it. You're obviously terrific. Well, 0:04:31.839 --> 0:04:34.039 I have to sign my mother for that, because she 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:37.679 immediately made me start exercising, and that's how she started 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:40.599 getting interested in ballet. She used to stand there with 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:44.160 a stick and might be doing so with her mother's 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:49.040 tough love and what honestly sounds like abuse, Kathy recovers 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:53.000 and ballet is her ticket off the farm. When she's thirteen, 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:57.040 Kathy flees South Africa alone to attend London's Royal Ballet 0:04:57.120 --> 0:05:01.200 School on a scholarship, but when she arrived, she discovers 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:04.680 her scholarship doesn't include housing. Kathy is just a kid. 0:05:05.160 --> 0:05:07.920 She's in her early teens, and she's forced to live 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:10.640 in an adult boarding house in London. On her own. 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:13.040 I was very lovely and it was miserable at the time, 0:05:13.080 --> 0:05:15.200 but it really taught me how to paid bills and 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:18.480 appreciate money, and to really be very independent take care 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:20.400 of myself. In lots of words and maybe two camp 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:25.240 Saich a good business person today, The Royal Malat ultimately 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:28.000 doesn't pan out, and Kathy becomes an exotic dancer to 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:32.160 pay the bills, and an extremely successful one. In fact, 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:34.880 an Associated Press story at the time names Kathy the 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:38.479 highest paid stripper in the world. When she meets Bob, 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:42.520 she's in her twenties, dancing at the famous London nightclub Peegal, 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:46.039 reading the Financial Times on her breaks, and in less 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:49.560 than a decade through working with Bob and his magazine Empire, 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:52.559 Kathy will go from being one of the highest paid 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:55.320 strippers in the world to one of the highest ranking 0:05:55.480 --> 0:05:59.200 and highest paid female executives in the world, though her 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:03.040 success is constantly undermined by the press for her association 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:07.040 with Bob. People who have a view of what Penthouse 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:09.080 magazine and they will say to you, how can you 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:11.919 be married to somebody like Bob GUCCIONI. Now, obviously you 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:13.400 have a different view of him than we so she 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:17.200 are tell us a little bit. The working relationship that 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:19.520 we've had together has been terrific, and Bob has always 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:22.000 encouraged me. And Bob even wrote my first business levels, 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:25.359 and he's always supported me in every single thing. I 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:28.360 want to write a few minuto that Cathy's not easy 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:31.880 to pin down in this interview or in life. She's 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:36.239 shrewd and business minded, but also kind of tacky, blunt 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:40.120 and in your face sexy, and that dichotomy between these 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:43.360 two identities is something her more buttoned up New York 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:47.360 intellectual Viva employees now have to parse. Here's how Viva 0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:51.160 writer Annie Gottlieb remembers Kathy. She had this new voreche 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:53.560 air about her of being a working class girl who's 0:06:53.600 --> 0:06:57.599 gotten rich, you know, which was kind of appealing in 0:06:57.600 --> 0:07:01.360 a way, because she was tough and tough and glamorous 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:05.360 in a kind of kind of the way Donald Trump 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:09.280 is a poor man's idea of a rich man. Somebody said, 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:11.640 that's what Kathy Keaton was like a little bit. And 0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:15.560 here's Viva sex advice columnist doctor Judy. She was smart, 0:07:15.680 --> 0:07:20.000 she was reading Financial Times, she was thinking about economics 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:24.240 at the time when other women weren't thinking about economics. 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:28.920 So while I saw that outside, you know, she also 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:32.360 had that kind of sleeze or you know, from the 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:36.040 other side of the tracks and trying to look really trashy. 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:43.080 She was intelligent and she wanted to lift women up 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:47.760 and show them another way. But Kathy would do things 0:07:47.760 --> 0:07:51.600 that made it hard to respect her as a businesswoman. Remember, 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:54.680 all of these Viva women are working in Bob's Manhattan 0:07:54.760 --> 0:08:00.120 porn empire with its vulva astrays and schlubby pornographers, but 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:04.800 Kathy somehow manages to make things even weirder. Here's Viva 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:08.400 editor Pat Lindon. I remember one day coming to work, 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:14.120 and Kathy would come to work every morning in her limousine, 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:19.560 and somebody was paid to stand outside on the sidewalk 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:22.520 and say to anybody passing back, would you like to 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:26.080 meet Kathy Keaton? And you know I didn't stick around 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:29.560 to see what the reactions were. I went upstairs to 0:08:29.560 --> 0:08:32.400 do my job, but I remember we talked about it, 0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:36.880 and you know, wondering how earth she could possibly get 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:39.400 the nerve to do this. I mean, where's her pride 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:43.800 as a boss? Kathy's clearly complicated, but she also has 0:08:43.840 --> 0:08:48.480 a complicated job. The magazine she's inherited is a mishmosh 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:51.800 needs a lot of work. Now the Bob's no longer 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:55.000 Viva's editor, Kathy and her staff are trying to quickly 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:58.720 make up for lost time, shake off Bob's man stink, 0:08:59.200 --> 0:09:02.880 and make Viva appeal to the new seventies liberated woman. 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:06.920 And their mission is extra confusing because remember, both Kathy 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:10.640 and Bob hate the word feminist, but Kathy also wants 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:12.640 the Viva editors to ramp up the image of the 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:19.160 magazine as liberated, progressive, sexually hip. Here's editor Robin woo Lanner. 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:22.440 We were constantly getting the feedback from Kathy that it 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:26.600 wasn't sexy enough, and in nineteen seventy four, no one 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:29.679 really knows what this modern idea of sexy looks like, 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:32.959 nor can they agree on what a sexually liberated woman 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:36.760 actually desires. And the confusion inside Viva is a micro 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:41.120 version of what's happening outside its office doors. Kathy exudes 0:09:41.200 --> 0:09:44.360 show off the sexual confidence, and she wants her staff 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:47.000 to represent the same in the pages of Viva, but 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:50.240 they might not be ready for that or comfortable with it. 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:53.480 Here's Viva writer Annie, you know, we were trying to 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:56.480 figure out what we wanted and we had really just begun, 0:09:56.600 --> 0:09:59.320 i would say, in those days, and there was a 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:02.920 lot of pressure or to get hip and get liberated 0:10:03.000 --> 0:10:06.280 and get sexy. And what liberated and sexy mean to 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:09.480 some people during this time is pretty radical compared to 0:10:09.520 --> 0:10:13.360 how sex was thought about before the seventies. Here's doctor Judy. 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:18.760 People were experimenting or in everything, they were experimenting with 0:10:18.800 --> 0:10:25.120 their bodies with different partners of bisexuality. Try sexuality meaning 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:28.840 try anything was so common. I mean, group sex was 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:33.079 like the thing for people to do was no big deal. 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:36.320 It was like if you were cool, you would do it. 0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:39.080 If you weren't cool, you were afraid or you know whatever, 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:42.040 or you weren't in the scene. But even doctor Judy 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:45.559 admits it was not all freewheel and free love, good times. 0:10:45.880 --> 0:10:48.719 The women of the sexual revolution actually had a lot 0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:54.120 to overcome. Oh, shames huge. I mean women were massively 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:58.640 shamed of their bodies, Doctor Judy. Sex therapy, which she 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:02.480 writes about in Viva, includes exercises to help women become 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:06.800 more comfortable in their bodies. The shame about your genitalia 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:10.360 was rappened. I mean they were just every woman I 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:15.160 would see would be you know, oh those ugly let's 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:18.080 look so ugly. Why would he want to look at 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:22.680 it or lick it or smell it? Always smell bad, 0:11:22.800 --> 0:11:27.240 I look bad, I taste bad. Eh. I mean, that 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:30.640 was what the shame was about. And so you know, 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:36.480 the idea was constantly to reassure women, look, you look beautiful, 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:41.080 and examine yourself. So this was a very important part 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:46.120 of getting over that shame. And there's not only shame 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:50.080 for women outside the Viva office, but inside of it too. 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:53.800 In fact, with few exceptions, the women we spoke to, 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:57.640 all now in their seventies and eighties, were almost uniformly 0:11:57.760 --> 0:12:01.000 uncomfortable talking about sex and they're own experience of it 0:12:01.040 --> 0:12:05.040 at the time, which made creating an erotica magazine tricky 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:08.640 to say the least. Still, Kathy is about to push 0:12:08.640 --> 0:12:12.160 a new vision of sexual liberation in the pages of Viva. 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:14.560 Here she is in that same editor's letter from the 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:18.160 top of this episode. What instreacts me most, however, about 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:21.120 Viva is the terrific response we've gotten to our male 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:26.760 nude pictorials. There's been a growing demand for them and Kathy, 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:31.920 she's going to more than meet this demand. Okay, fine, 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:34.920 it's time to talk about the dicks, but you're going 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:41.520 to have to wait until after the break at two 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:48.040 center the penis. What I do remember was boxes of 0:12:48.200 --> 0:12:51.760 letters that would come in. People still wrote letters in 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:57.640 those days from women saying, what a complete disappointment. Not 0:12:57.760 --> 0:13:01.439 even one penis in view in your first issue. Circumcised 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:03.959 or not. Women are exploited, and that's why I was 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:07.400 excited to see a sex magazine for women. I'm ready 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:09.960 to exploit these men and by God, turn them into 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:13.240 sex objects good for fucking and fixing cabinets. More cock 0:13:13.320 --> 0:13:15.880 and balls. How about some shots of a richly endowed 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:19.280 male with a generous penis flopping out of his unzipped pants, 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:27.600 gearing up that big, powerful organ for action. My impression 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:30.760 was it was hundreds. It was probably dozens, I don't know, 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:34.160 but a lot of letters from angry women. He said, 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:38.800 you promised us a penthouse for women, and you're cheating us. 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:43.079 Show more cock. Remember, for almost the full year of 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:46.079 Bob was editor, the Sex and Viva looked mostly just 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:50.040 like Penthouse, and not only because of Bob's signature, soft 0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:55.959 focused lighting. There's nudity, but it's mostly female. Bob's Viva 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:58.480 depicted women and men getting it on in a variety 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:01.920 of scenarios Torrian lady on a picnic, Oh no, my 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:05.840 dress fell off, etc. But Bob's vision of a women's 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:09.320 sex magazine is not what Viva's readers signed up for, 0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:14.040 and they're not quiet about letting the publishers know, hence 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:17.800 these letters. And so a few months after Cathy takes over, 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:21.400 she gives the people what they want, maybe even a 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:24.760 little more than what they actually want. Suddenly there are 0:14:24.800 --> 0:14:28.960 penises everywhere in Viva. There dick sprinkled with glitter dicks 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:32.520 next to high priced stereos, dicks at a rodeo. Dick's 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:37.080 attached to men and their occupations, actor woodsman, boxers dick. 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:42.760 They're even surprised celebrity dicks, well, celebrity bulges, but still. 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:46.160 Here's a clip from the Talking Sopranos podcast about one 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:49.480 of their cast members, Paully Walnuts played by Tony Serrico, 0:14:49.960 --> 0:14:54.440 who appeared in Viva. There was a porno magazine called Viva. 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:57.560 It was like for women in the seventies, and he 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:00.360 was a cover star in one of them. He's wearing 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:08.600 like a yeah yeah, yeah yeah. And he's like a bodybuilder. 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:11.520 He was huge. Yes. According to Steve Schrippa and Michael 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:15.760 Imperioli on the Talking Sopranos podcast, Viva even featured at 0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:20.360 least the outline of Polly Walnut's dick rip. It is, 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:24.280 in a word, a explosion. Here's Viva's feminist film critic 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:26.840 Molly Haskell. I think there was a kind of playful 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:28.920 reversal going on. I was look at us this way, 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:31.000 we'll look at you that way. And I mean, I 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:33.200 think some people really working have turned on by it, 0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:36.120 and it was sort of an experiment, I guess, to see, 0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:40.200 if you know, the reversal works. All of which seems great, right, 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:46.400 sex positive, even feminist, especially if you love dick. But 0:15:47.240 --> 0:15:52.960 Viva was featuring flaccid penises because to get you couldn't 0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:54.840 have an erect penis, or then it would have been 0:15:54.880 --> 0:15:58.000 porn what Viva editor Robbins talking about. Here are the 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:02.400 obscenity laws surrounding penises. In nineteen seventy four, the Supreme 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:06.040 Court had introduced an obscenity standard called the quote Limp 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:13.680 dick test, Limp dick totally fine, hard dick obscene. Also, 0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:17.080 it was considered illegal to mail obscene materials, so a 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:20.000 picture of an erect penis in the mail that challenged 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:23.400 federal law. And this is important because Viva was mostly 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:27.240 a subscription based magazine. It sold on few newsstands. It 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:30.600 never appeared, for example, in the supermarket checkout line next 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:34.600 to Good Housekeeping. And because of all of this, the 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:40.600 penises inside Viva were, without exception soft, So you had 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:45.720 these pictures of man with flaccid penises. And I personally 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:48.040 did not know a woman who would be interested in 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:53.760 looking at Viva blackies. I know. It was not a 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:57.480 turn on. It wasn't. I mean, it was a parody. 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:01.040 It was almost like a parody of Headhouse, you know. 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:04.720 And this is where this whole strange female erotica experiment 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:08.720 begins to fall apart. First because the dicks and Viva 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:12.760 are not actually the most carnal, but instead soft and shy, 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:17.560 and there's for sure some shrinkage. But also because while 0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:21.199 the dicks are being outwardly promoted by Kathy, behind the 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:25.399 scenes they're still all art directed by Bob. There's still 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:29.240 his idea of what women want to see. Bob is 0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:32.800 the one instructing male photographers to shoot this porn for women, 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:38.000 even after he's no longer Viva's editor. And these male 0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:40.720 photographers have an interesting point of view when it comes 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:44.520 to creating erotica for women. I've he's thought of myself 0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:50.719 as a lesbian traft in man's clothes. That's Earl Miller, Via, 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:54.240 a staff photographer and the longest running photographer at Penthouse, 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:58.880 because I see women in such a sensitive way, and 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:03.200 that's how I was motivated from deep in my soul 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:06.879 to portray them. He was there for forty years. Earl's 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:09.480 now in his eighties, a porn veteran, but in the 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:13.199 early seventies he was a celebrity photographer coming off a 0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:15.480 five year stint on the road with Sunny and Share. 0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:19.280 I was there their official photographer for the Sonny and 0:18:19.320 --> 0:18:23.240 Share show and shooting a lot of talent, you know, 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:27.120 actors and actresses and things, and some album covers. And 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:31.000 I saw my first coffee at Penhouse on a newsstand 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:34.920 and I went, oh my god, look at this. This 0:18:35.160 --> 0:18:40.520 is this is unbelievable. It's it's it's sensual, it's it's 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:44.679 it's real, it's engaging, so Earl reaches out to Bob, 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:48.800 and Bob, who rarely let anyone shoot the pets, but himself, 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:52.480 takes Earl under his wing. He starts to let Earl 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:55.440 in on the photo shoots, and by then I had 0:18:55.480 --> 0:19:00.960 shot my first really romantic love story. I actually had 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:05.080 shot it with Viva in mind. That first romantic love 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:08.359 story was for Penthouse, but Earl is quickly tasked with 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:12.640 creating Viva's images. He now faces the dicks alone. I'm 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:15.719 just flying by the seat of my pants and just 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:20.920 trusting my creative instincts, you know. And my instincts told 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:25.840 me that maybe women see men in a more sensitive way. 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:28.640 You know, sometimes a girl wants a good heart fuck, 0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:31.879 but maybe that same girl sometimes also wants to be 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:36.399 caressed gently and softly and all magic places in her body, 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:39.400 behind her knees and you know, like her neck, under 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:43.919 her ear where the general touch is more. I always 0:19:43.920 --> 0:19:47.160 thought that less is more to be fair by today's 0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:51.679 porn standards. Viva's porn is all less is more. The 0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:56.439 dicks are unaggressive, They're mostly shot artistically as opposed to erotically, 0:19:57.119 --> 0:19:59.480 or at least what the straight female editors at Viva 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:02.520 would CONSI are erotic, but unknown to Bob Guccioni and 0:20:02.560 --> 0:20:07.240 Earl Miller, the men's spearheading these photoshoots, these flaccid dick 0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:11.960 picks do, however, have a growing audience, one they didn't predict. 0:20:12.640 --> 0:20:19.960 The great you know rumor plus secret about Viva was 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:23.080 it was primarily read by gay guys. That's Bob Guccioni's son, 0:20:23.119 --> 0:20:26.480 Bob Junior. During the course of the publication several years 0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:29.800 it was out, it became a little obvious that there 0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:33.280 was a great amount of interest from guys. But maybe 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:35.400 it was obvious to at least some of the editors. 0:20:35.840 --> 0:20:38.080 Here's Robin on what happened when she left a few 0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:40.960 Vivas at her boyfriend's apartment. I dated a guy in 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:43.959 San Francisco for a while while I was at Viva, 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:46.400 and he was this big, burly guy and he goes, 0:20:46.720 --> 0:20:49.320 my landlord keeps hitting on me. Why does he think 0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:53.080 I'm gay? And I'm like, got Viva on your coffee table. 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:56.520 So yeah, some people may be into the decks, but 0:20:56.640 --> 0:20:59.040 for the editors at Viva, the dicks and the way 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:02.120 they're being shot are representative of everything. They didn't want 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:05.560 this magazine to be, they're out of sync with the intellectual, 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:07.800 high end vibe that the women at Viva are working 0:21:07.800 --> 0:21:11.080 to create with things like Doctor Judy's female focus sex 0:21:11.119 --> 0:21:15.280 advice columns, with their thoughtful reported pieces on things like 0:21:15.359 --> 0:21:17.960 how to be in control of your own orgasm and 0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:22.040 exploring the world of open marriage. And because Bob's not 0:21:22.240 --> 0:21:26.600 really gone, the magazine still has a divided vision his 0:21:27.080 --> 0:21:31.199 and theirs. It's like Bob's haunting the feminist editors from 0:21:31.240 --> 0:21:34.639 the sidelines, or even from the looks of some of 0:21:34.680 --> 0:21:39.600 his stories, heckling them. Here's editor Betty Jane again. You know, 0:21:40.320 --> 0:21:44.880 just this afternoon, I had I unearthed some care sheets 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:50.120 from this is a January seventy five issue, and it's 0:21:50.200 --> 0:21:54.960 so incredible because it really shows how it was practically 0:21:54.960 --> 0:21:59.200 two magazines. The editors are going full feminist in Viva's editorial, 0:21:59.640 --> 0:22:02.920 pulling together all star lineups with big second wave names 0:22:02.920 --> 0:22:06.120 like Betty Friedan and Barbara Seamen, who were talking about 0:22:06.280 --> 0:22:09.479 serious issues that impact how women think about sex and 0:22:09.600 --> 0:22:12.760 themselves at the time. But I'm looking at this color 0:22:12.840 --> 0:22:16.000 line and it says the myth is a female masochism, 0:22:16.000 --> 0:22:17.760 and it has all these names and then there's a 0:22:17.760 --> 0:22:22.639 little line and right under it is crotch watching, the 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:26.119 only female spectator sport which is talking about. Here is 0:22:26.160 --> 0:22:30.520 a Viva story called crotch Watching, and incredibly in your face, 0:22:30.640 --> 0:22:33.919 a six page spread of close ups of men's crotches 0:22:34.400 --> 0:22:39.080 bulging out of swim trunks, sailor pants, boxing shorts, a 0:22:39.200 --> 0:22:42.560 thong like banana hammock. So that was a layout that 0:22:43.240 --> 0:22:45.719 was really had nothing to do with what we use 0:22:45.720 --> 0:22:48.119 a magazine we were producing. In some ways it has 0:22:48.160 --> 0:22:52.320 split personality. Now, a crotch section is of course a 0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:56.240 natural fit for a straight women's porn magazine, but maybe 0:22:56.320 --> 0:23:01.239 not these crotches shown in this way. The editors were 0:23:01.280 --> 0:23:05.000 trying to make a smart, even elite publication, but their 0:23:05.040 --> 0:23:09.359 work is always juxtaposed next to corny, sometimes even juvenile 0:23:09.520 --> 0:23:13.960 pictures of dogs. The Viva women. They were trying to 0:23:14.000 --> 0:23:17.639 make their own version of Esquire, not a joke magazine 0:23:17.640 --> 0:23:22.040 with banana hammock schlungs. And while Cathy is in charge 0:23:22.080 --> 0:23:26.399 of all this, she's also in a difficult position. She 0:23:26.520 --> 0:23:29.400 has to right this wrongheaded ship, and her number one 0:23:29.440 --> 0:23:32.560 solution is pushing dick picks. The editors hate, but some 0:23:32.640 --> 0:23:36.280 readers say they like Cathy is so determined to make 0:23:36.280 --> 0:23:39.800 the dicks work that she forces the entire editorial team 0:23:39.800 --> 0:23:43.159 on a media tour to defend Viva's male nudity. So 0:23:43.440 --> 0:23:47.520 I had to go on TV shows and radio interviews 0:23:47.600 --> 0:23:51.000 and things like that and defend this idea that women 0:23:51.080 --> 0:23:56.720 liked to look at male nudity as a way men 0:23:56.840 --> 0:24:00.520 like to look at female nudity. And I just close 0:24:00.640 --> 0:24:04.919 my eyes and did it. I don't think really any 0:24:05.080 --> 0:24:09.000 of the editors were really interested, you know. In that 0:24:09.160 --> 0:24:13.359 side of the magazine, it's another iteration of erotica. The 0:24:13.400 --> 0:24:17.400 women at Viva again are never consulted about, but feel 0:24:17.440 --> 0:24:21.280 they have no choice but to accept. Kathy's pushing more 0:24:21.359 --> 0:24:24.840 and more of her version of sexiness in Viva. But 0:24:24.960 --> 0:24:29.000 she's still letting Bob Guccioni art directed. It's an all 0:24:29.040 --> 0:24:32.800 in the family, one two punch, a leadership force that's 0:24:32.840 --> 0:24:36.679 impossible for the editors to break. Viva's young feminists are 0:24:36.760 --> 0:24:39.640 left on more. They need a leader, they can look 0:24:39.720 --> 0:24:44.040 up to, someone who's on their side, and they're about 0:24:44.080 --> 0:24:49.479 to get it. I didn't want to be curtailed, and 0:24:49.520 --> 0:24:51.440 I yes, I did break the rules There's no question 0:24:51.440 --> 0:25:03.199 about it. Stiffed as an original podcast from iHeartMedia and 0:25:03.200 --> 0:25:07.439 Crooked Media. It's produced by Crooked Media. It's hosted and 0:25:07.480 --> 0:25:12.360 written by me Jennifer Romalini and produced by Megan Donnas. 0:25:12.400 --> 0:25:16.719 Sidney Rapp is our associate producer, Story editing by Mary Knopf, 0:25:17.560 --> 0:25:21.560 music sound design and engineering by Hannis Brown. Our fact 0:25:21.680 --> 0:25:26.320 checker is Julia Paskin. Additional production support from Noafola Kato 0:25:26.480 --> 0:25:30.200 and Inez Maza. Thanks to Natalie Robamed for reading the 0:25:30.280 --> 0:25:34.320 voice of Katain Keaton from Crooked Media. Our executive producers 0:25:34.320 --> 0:25:37.640 are Sarah Geismer, Katie Long, and Mary Knopf, with special 0:25:37.680 --> 0:25:42.359 thanks to Alison Falzetta and Lyra Smith from iHeartMedia. Our 0:25:42.400 --> 0:25:46.119 executive producers are Beth Ann Mcaluso and Julia Weaver.