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Speaker 1: It's October nineteen seventy four, a year since Viva's first

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Speaker 1: issue hit newsstands, and this issue is significant not just

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Speaker 1: because it's an anniversary issue, but because at last there

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Speaker 1: is a Viva woman at the top of the masthead.

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Speaker 1: It's Kathy Keaton. Here's podcaster in journalist Natalie Robamed reading

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Speaker 1: Kathy's editor's letter. She'll be reading Kathy throughout the series.

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Speaker 1: It's been quite a year, this first year Viva, full

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Speaker 1: of action and controversy. We must be the first magazine

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Speaker 1: in the world to have published a beauty feature on

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Speaker 1: pubic hairstyles. The Pubic Hair picks an array of Volva

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Speaker 1: models with hair trimmed to resemble hearts or cut into

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Speaker 1: the shape of flames, or by Paul Mitchell before he

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Speaker 1: goes on to become one of the most famous hairdressers

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Speaker 1: of all time. Kathy continues, in the past, women were

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Speaker 1: supposed to be turned on by sexual suggestion, and yet

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Speaker 1: today we're discovering that women frankly, boldly and actively enjoy

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Speaker 1: looking at the malebody. By this time, Bob Guccioni has

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Speaker 1: taken his gold chains and gone mostly home, placing Kathy

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Speaker 1: Keaton in charge of Viva and Kathy, Well, she's making

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Speaker 1: quick work of putting her stamp on the magazine. In

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Speaker 1: this editor's letter, she's announcing a big change. See Kathy's

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Speaker 1: on a bit of a crusade. In the coming months,

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Speaker 1: Viva will be exploring men in an infinite variety of ways.

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Speaker 1: Undoubtedly will be called outrighteous. We're not. We just don't

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Speaker 1: believe in censorship. Kathy's new directive, which will reveal more

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Speaker 1: fully in this episode, comes just as the Viva editors

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Speaker 1: have found their footing working under Bob making their secret

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Speaker 1: magazine within the magazine. But now they're under new pressure

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Speaker 1: to get with Hathy's sexy program and also, like with

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Speaker 1: any new boss, sort out who she is and what

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Speaker 1: it is she wants. So, who really was Kathy Keaton

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Speaker 1: this enigma of seventies femininity? And could she put her

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Speaker 1: own successful stamp on Viva and lead the Viva editors

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Speaker 1: in making the smart feminist magazine they desperately want From

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Speaker 1: Cooking Media and iHeartMedia. I'm Jennifer Romalini and this is Stiffed.

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Speaker 1: Episode three, Soft Focus Semihard, Act one, The Viva Woman.

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Speaker 1: I'm Arlie Hurson and my guest is Kathy Keaton, and

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Speaker 1: we here in her beautiful townhouse in New York City.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. That's journalist Arlene Herson introducing Kathy in an

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Speaker 1: interview for her cable access show. Kathy and Bob were

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Speaker 1: kind of regulars on Arlene Show. This interview is from

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Speaker 1: the early eighties and takes place in the home Kathy

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Speaker 1: shares with Bob. Kathy is sitting in an Italian Baroque

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Speaker 1: style chair, which looks like a throne. She's a slim,

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Speaker 1: icy blonde, her postures straight. There's not a hair out

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Speaker 1: of place. You have a wonderful life now, a fulfilling career,

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Speaker 1: beautiful house. You met Bob Guccioni in London. He actually

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Speaker 1: changed your whole life. He had a crazy idea what

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Speaker 1: made you Watson? It was a very good idea. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I wasn't in the publishing industry, so I didn't know

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Speaker 1: from anything. I was a daunser. Now Kathy might not

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Speaker 1: know much when she first meets Bob, but like him,

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Speaker 1: she has innate business instincts and she trusts her gut

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Speaker 1: and to me it might have a lot of sense.

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Speaker 1: It was very launch a con and so I thought, well,

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Speaker 1: I really have nothing to lose anyway, and Kathy didn't

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Speaker 1: have much to lose. She'd grown up poor in the

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Speaker 1: nineteen forties on a farm in South Africa. Like Bob,

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Speaker 1: her family was uneducated, working class. Throughout her childhood, Kathy's

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Speaker 1: parents struggled financially, and Kathy struggled too. You had polio

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Speaker 1: as a child, so many people that I know today. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: there are several that I know who had polio's children

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Speaker 1: have life lasting effects from it. You're obviously terrific. Well,

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Speaker 1: I have to sign my mother for that, because she

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Speaker 1: immediately made me start exercising, and that's how she started

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Speaker 1: getting interested in ballet. She used to stand there with

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Speaker 1: a stick and might be doing so with her mother's

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Speaker 1: tough love and what honestly sounds like abuse, Kathy recovers

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Speaker 1: and ballet is her ticket off the farm. When she's thirteen,

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Speaker 1: Kathy flees South Africa alone to attend London's Royal Ballet

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Speaker 1: School on a scholarship, but when she arrived, she discovers

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Speaker 1: her scholarship doesn't include housing. Kathy is just a kid.

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Speaker 1: She's in her early teens, and she's forced to live

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Speaker 1: in an adult boarding house in London. On her own.

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Speaker 1: I was very lovely and it was miserable at the time,

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Speaker 1: but it really taught me how to paid bills and

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Speaker 1: appreciate money, and to really be very independent take care

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Speaker 1: of myself. In lots of words and maybe two camp

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Speaker 1: Saich a good business person today, The Royal Malat ultimately

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Speaker 1: doesn't pan out, and Kathy becomes an exotic dancer to

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Speaker 1: pay the bills, and an extremely successful one. In fact,

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Speaker 1: an Associated Press story at the time names Kathy the

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Speaker 1: highest paid stripper in the world. When she meets Bob,

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Speaker 1: she's in her twenties, dancing at the famous London nightclub Peegal,

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Speaker 1: reading the Financial Times on her breaks, and in less

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Speaker 1: than a decade through working with Bob and his magazine Empire,

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Speaker 1: Kathy will go from being one of the highest paid

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Speaker 1: strippers in the world to one of the highest ranking

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Speaker 1: and highest paid female executives in the world, though her

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Speaker 1: success is constantly undermined by the press for her association

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Speaker 1: with Bob. People who have a view of what Penthouse

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Speaker 1: magazine and they will say to you, how can you

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Speaker 1: be married to somebody like Bob GUCCIONI. Now, obviously you

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Speaker 1: have a different view of him than we so she

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Speaker 1: are tell us a little bit. The working relationship that

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Speaker 1: we've had together has been terrific, and Bob has always

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Speaker 1: encouraged me. And Bob even wrote my first business levels,

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Speaker 1: and he's always supported me in every single thing. I

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Speaker 1: want to write a few minuto that Cathy's not easy

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Speaker 1: to pin down in this interview or in life. She's

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Speaker 1: shrewd and business minded, but also kind of tacky, blunt

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Speaker 1: and in your face sexy, and that dichotomy between these

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Speaker 1: two identities is something her more buttoned up New York

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Speaker 1: intellectual Viva employees now have to parse. Here's how Viva

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Speaker 1: writer Annie Gottlieb remembers Kathy. She had this new voreche

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Speaker 1: air about her of being a working class girl who's

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Speaker 1: gotten rich, you know, which was kind of appealing in

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Speaker 1: a way, because she was tough and tough and glamorous

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Speaker 1: in a kind of kind of the way Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: is a poor man's idea of a rich man. Somebody said,

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Speaker 1: that's what Kathy Keaton was like a little bit. And

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Speaker 1: here's Viva sex advice columnist doctor Judy. She was smart,

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Speaker 1: she was reading Financial Times, she was thinking about economics

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Speaker 1: at the time when other women weren't thinking about economics.

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Speaker 1: So while I saw that outside, you know, she also

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Speaker 1: had that kind of sleeze or you know, from the

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Speaker 1: other side of the tracks and trying to look really trashy.

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Speaker 1: She was intelligent and she wanted to lift women up

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Speaker 1: and show them another way. But Kathy would do things

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Speaker 1: that made it hard to respect her as a businesswoman. Remember,

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Speaker 1: all of these Viva women are working in Bob's Manhattan

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Speaker 1: porn empire with its vulva astrays and schlubby pornographers, but

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Speaker 1: Kathy somehow manages to make things even weirder. Here's Viva

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Speaker 1: editor Pat Lindon. I remember one day coming to work,

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Speaker 1: and Kathy would come to work every morning in her limousine,

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Speaker 1: and somebody was paid to stand outside on the sidewalk

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Speaker 1: and say to anybody passing back, would you like to

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Speaker 1: meet Kathy Keaton? And you know I didn't stick around

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Speaker 1: to see what the reactions were. I went upstairs to

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Speaker 1: do my job, but I remember we talked about it,

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Speaker 1: and you know, wondering how earth she could possibly get

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Speaker 1: the nerve to do this. I mean, where's her pride

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Speaker 1: as a boss? Kathy's clearly complicated, but she also has

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Speaker 1: a complicated job. The magazine she's inherited is a mishmosh

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Speaker 1: needs a lot of work. Now the Bob's no longer

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Speaker 1: Viva's editor, Kathy and her staff are trying to quickly

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Speaker 1: make up for lost time, shake off Bob's man stink,

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Speaker 1: and make Viva appeal to the new seventies liberated woman.

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Speaker 1: And their mission is extra confusing because remember, both Kathy

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Speaker 1: and Bob hate the word feminist, but Kathy also wants

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Speaker 1: the Viva editors to ramp up the image of the

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Speaker 1: magazine as liberated, progressive, sexually hip. Here's editor Robin woo Lanner.

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Speaker 1: We were constantly getting the feedback from Kathy that it

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Speaker 1: wasn't sexy enough, and in nineteen seventy four, no one

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Speaker 1: really knows what this modern idea of sexy looks like,

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Speaker 1: nor can they agree on what a sexually liberated woman

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Speaker 1: actually desires. And the confusion inside Viva is a micro

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Speaker 1: version of what's happening outside its office doors. Kathy exudes

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Speaker 1: show off the sexual confidence, and she wants her staff

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Speaker 1: to represent the same in the pages of Viva, but

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Speaker 1: they might not be ready for that or comfortable with it.

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Speaker 1: Here's Viva writer Annie, you know, we were trying to

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Speaker 1: figure out what we wanted and we had really just begun,

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Speaker 1: i would say, in those days, and there was a

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Speaker 1: lot of pressure or to get hip and get liberated

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Speaker 1: and get sexy. And what liberated and sexy mean to

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Speaker 1: some people during this time is pretty radical compared to

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Speaker 1: how sex was thought about before the seventies. Here's doctor Judy.

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Speaker 1: People were experimenting or in everything, they were experimenting with

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Speaker 1: their bodies with different partners of bisexuality. Try sexuality meaning

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Speaker 1: try anything was so common. I mean, group sex was

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Speaker 1: like the thing for people to do was no big deal.

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Speaker 1: It was like if you were cool, you would do it.

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Speaker 1: If you weren't cool, you were afraid or you know whatever,

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Speaker 1: or you weren't in the scene. But even doctor Judy

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Speaker 1: admits it was not all freewheel and free love, good times.

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Speaker 1: The women of the sexual revolution actually had a lot

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Speaker 1: to overcome. Oh, shames huge. I mean women were massively

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Speaker 1: shamed of their bodies, Doctor Judy. Sex therapy, which she

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Speaker 1: writes about in Viva, includes exercises to help women become

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Speaker 1: more comfortable in their bodies. The shame about your genitalia

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Speaker 1: was rappened. I mean they were just every woman I

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Speaker 1: would see would be you know, oh those ugly let's

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Speaker 1: look so ugly. Why would he want to look at

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Speaker 1: it or lick it or smell it? Always smell bad,

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Speaker 1: I look bad, I taste bad. Eh. I mean, that

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Speaker 1: was what the shame was about. And so you know,

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Speaker 1: the idea was constantly to reassure women, look, you look beautiful,

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Speaker 1: and examine yourself. So this was a very important part

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Speaker 1: of getting over that shame. And there's not only shame

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Speaker 1: for women outside the Viva office, but inside of it too.

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Speaker 1: In fact, with few exceptions, the women we spoke to,

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Speaker 1: all now in their seventies and eighties, were almost uniformly

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Speaker 1: uncomfortable talking about sex and they're own experience of it

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Speaker 1: at the time, which made creating an erotica magazine tricky

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Speaker 1: to say the least. Still, Kathy is about to push

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Speaker 1: a new vision of sexual liberation in the pages of Viva.

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Speaker 1: Here she is in that same editor's letter from the

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Speaker 1: top of this episode. What instreacts me most, however, about

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Speaker 1: Viva is the terrific response we've gotten to our male

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Speaker 1: nude pictorials. There's been a growing demand for them and Kathy,

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Speaker 1: she's going to more than meet this demand. Okay, fine,

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Speaker 1: it's time to talk about the dicks, but you're going

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Speaker 1: to have to wait until after the break at two

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Speaker 1: center the penis. What I do remember was boxes of

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Speaker 1: letters that would come in. People still wrote letters in

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Speaker 1: those days from women saying, what a complete disappointment. Not

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Speaker 1: even one penis in view in your first issue. Circumcised

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Speaker 1: or not. Women are exploited, and that's why I was

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Speaker 1: excited to see a sex magazine for women. I'm ready

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Speaker 1: to exploit these men and by God, turn them into

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Speaker 1: sex objects good for fucking and fixing cabinets. More cock

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Speaker 1: and balls. How about some shots of a richly endowed

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Speaker 1: male with a generous penis flopping out of his unzipped pants,

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Speaker 1: gearing up that big, powerful organ for action. My impression

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Speaker 1: was it was hundreds. It was probably dozens, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: but a lot of letters from angry women. He said,

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Speaker 1: you promised us a penthouse for women, and you're cheating us.

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Speaker 1: Show more cock. Remember, for almost the full year of

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Speaker 1: Bob was editor, the Sex and Viva looked mostly just

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Speaker 1: like Penthouse, and not only because of Bob's signature, soft

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Speaker 1: focused lighting. There's nudity, but it's mostly female. Bob's Viva

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Speaker 1: depicted women and men getting it on in a variety

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Speaker 1: of scenarios Torrian lady on a picnic, Oh no, my

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Speaker 1: dress fell off, etc. But Bob's vision of a women's

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Speaker 1: sex magazine is not what Viva's readers signed up for,

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Speaker 1: and they're not quiet about letting the publishers know, hence

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Speaker 1: these letters. And so a few months after Cathy takes over,

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Speaker 1: she gives the people what they want, maybe even a

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Speaker 1: little more than what they actually want. Suddenly there are

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Speaker 1: penises everywhere in Viva. There dick sprinkled with glitter dicks

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Speaker 1: next to high priced stereos, dicks at a rodeo. Dick's

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Speaker 1: attached to men and their occupations, actor woodsman, boxers dick.

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Speaker 1: They're even surprised celebrity dicks, well, celebrity bulges, but still.

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Speaker 1: Here's a clip from the Talking Sopranos podcast about one

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Speaker 1: of their cast members, Paully Walnuts played by Tony Serrico,

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Speaker 1: who appeared in Viva. There was a porno magazine called Viva.

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Speaker 1: It was like for women in the seventies, and he

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Speaker 1: was a cover star in one of them. He's wearing

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Speaker 1: like a yeah yeah, yeah yeah. And he's like a bodybuilder.

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Speaker 1: He was huge. Yes. According to Steve Schrippa and Michael

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Speaker 1: Imperioli on the Talking Sopranos podcast, Viva even featured at

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Speaker 1: least the outline of Polly Walnut's dick rip. It is,

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Speaker 1: in a word, a explosion. Here's Viva's feminist film critic

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Speaker 1: Molly Haskell. I think there was a kind of playful

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Speaker 1: reversal going on. I was look at us this way,

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Speaker 1: we'll look at you that way. And I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think some people really working have turned on by it,

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Speaker 1: and it was sort of an experiment, I guess, to see,

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Speaker 1: if you know, the reversal works. All of which seems great, right,

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Speaker 1: sex positive, even feminist, especially if you love dick. But

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Speaker 1: Viva was featuring flaccid penises because to get you couldn't

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Speaker 1: have an erect penis, or then it would have been

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Speaker 1: porn what Viva editor Robbins talking about. Here are the

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Speaker 1: obscenity laws surrounding penises. In nineteen seventy four, the Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court had introduced an obscenity standard called the quote Limp

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Speaker 1: dick test, Limp dick totally fine, hard dick obscene. Also,

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Speaker 1: it was considered illegal to mail obscene materials, so a

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Speaker 1: picture of an erect penis in the mail that challenged

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Speaker 1: federal law. And this is important because Viva was mostly

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Speaker 1: a subscription based magazine. It sold on few newsstands. It

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Speaker 1: never appeared, for example, in the supermarket checkout line next

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Speaker 1: to Good Housekeeping. And because of all of this, the

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Speaker 1: penises inside Viva were, without exception soft, So you had

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Speaker 1: these pictures of man with flaccid penises. And I personally

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Speaker 1: did not know a woman who would be interested in

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Speaker 1: looking at Viva blackies. I know. It was not a

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Speaker 1: turn on. It wasn't. I mean, it was a parody.

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Speaker 1: It was almost like a parody of Headhouse, you know.

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Speaker 1: And this is where this whole strange female erotica experiment

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Speaker 1: begins to fall apart. First because the dicks and Viva

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Speaker 1: are not actually the most carnal, but instead soft and shy,

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Speaker 1: and there's for sure some shrinkage. But also because while

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Speaker 1: the dicks are being outwardly promoted by Kathy, behind the

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Speaker 1: scenes they're still all art directed by Bob. There's still

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Speaker 1: his idea of what women want to see. Bob is

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Speaker 1: the one instructing male photographers to shoot this porn for women,

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Speaker 1: even after he's no longer Viva's editor. And these male

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Speaker 1: photographers have an interesting point of view when it comes

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Speaker 1: to creating erotica for women. I've he's thought of myself

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Speaker 1: as a lesbian traft in man's clothes. That's Earl Miller, Via,

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Speaker 1: a staff photographer and the longest running photographer at Penthouse,

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Speaker 1: because I see women in such a sensitive way, and

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Speaker 1: that's how I was motivated from deep in my soul

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Speaker 1: to portray them. He was there for forty years. Earl's

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Speaker 1: now in his eighties, a porn veteran, but in the

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Speaker 1: early seventies he was a celebrity photographer coming off a

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Speaker 1: five year stint on the road with Sunny and Share.

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Speaker 1: I was there their official photographer for the Sonny and

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Speaker 1: Share show and shooting a lot of talent, you know,

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Speaker 1: actors and actresses and things, and some album covers. And

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Speaker 1: I saw my first coffee at Penhouse on a newsstand

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Speaker 1: and I went, oh my god, look at this. This

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Speaker 1: is this is unbelievable. It's it's it's sensual, it's it's

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Speaker 1: it's real, it's engaging, so Earl reaches out to Bob,

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Speaker 1: and Bob, who rarely let anyone shoot the pets, but himself,

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Speaker 1: takes Earl under his wing. He starts to let Earl

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Speaker 1: in on the photo shoots, and by then I had

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Speaker 1: shot my first really romantic love story. I actually had

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Speaker 1: shot it with Viva in mind. That first romantic love

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Speaker 1: story was for Penthouse, but Earl is quickly tasked with

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Speaker 1: creating Viva's images. He now faces the dicks alone. I'm

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Speaker 1: just flying by the seat of my pants and just

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Speaker 1: trusting my creative instincts, you know. And my instincts told

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Speaker 1: me that maybe women see men in a more sensitive way.

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Speaker 1: You know, sometimes a girl wants a good heart fuck,

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Speaker 1: but maybe that same girl sometimes also wants to be

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Speaker 1: caressed gently and softly and all magic places in her body,

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Speaker 1: behind her knees and you know, like her neck, under

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Speaker 1: her ear where the general touch is more. I always

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Speaker 1: thought that less is more to be fair by today's

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Speaker 1: porn standards. Viva's porn is all less is more. The

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Speaker 1: dicks are unaggressive, They're mostly shot artistically as opposed to erotically,

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Speaker 1: or at least what the straight female editors at Viva

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Speaker 1: would CONSI are erotic, but unknown to Bob Guccioni and

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Speaker 1: Earl Miller, the men's spearheading these photoshoots, these flaccid dick

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Speaker 1: picks do, however, have a growing audience, one they didn't predict.

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Speaker 1: The great you know rumor plus secret about Viva was

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Speaker 1: it was primarily read by gay guys. That's Bob Guccioni's son,

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Speaker 1: Bob Junior. During the course of the publication several years

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Speaker 1: it was out, it became a little obvious that there

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Speaker 1: was a great amount of interest from guys. But maybe

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Speaker 1: it was obvious to at least some of the editors.

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Speaker 1: Here's Robin on what happened when she left a few

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Speaker 1: Vivas at her boyfriend's apartment. I dated a guy in

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Speaker 1: San Francisco for a while while I was at Viva,

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Speaker 1: and he was this big, burly guy and he goes,

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Speaker 1: my landlord keeps hitting on me. Why does he think

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Speaker 1: I'm gay? And I'm like, got Viva on your coffee table.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, some people may be into the decks, but

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Speaker 1: for the editors at Viva, the dicks and the way

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Speaker 1: they're being shot are representative of everything. They didn't want

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Speaker 1: this magazine to be, they're out of sync with the intellectual,

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Speaker 1: high end vibe that the women at Viva are working

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Speaker 1: to create with things like Doctor Judy's female focus sex

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Speaker 1: advice columns, with their thoughtful reported pieces on things like

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Speaker 1: how to be in control of your own orgasm and

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Speaker 1: exploring the world of open marriage. And because Bob's not

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Speaker 1: really gone, the magazine still has a divided vision his

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Speaker 1: and theirs. It's like Bob's haunting the feminist editors from

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Speaker 1: the sidelines, or even from the looks of some of

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Speaker 1: his stories, heckling them. Here's editor Betty Jane again. You know,

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Speaker 1: just this afternoon, I had I unearthed some care sheets

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Speaker 1: from this is a January seventy five issue, and it's

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Speaker 1: so incredible because it really shows how it was practically

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Speaker 1: two magazines. The editors are going full feminist in Viva's editorial,

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Speaker 1: pulling together all star lineups with big second wave names

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Speaker 1: like Betty Friedan and Barbara Seamen, who were talking about

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Speaker 1: serious issues that impact how women think about sex and

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Speaker 1: themselves at the time. But I'm looking at this color

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Speaker 1: line and it says the myth is a female masochism,

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Speaker 1: and it has all these names and then there's a

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Speaker 1: little line and right under it is crotch watching, the

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Speaker 1: only female spectator sport which is talking about. Here is

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Speaker 1: a Viva story called crotch Watching, and incredibly in your face,

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Speaker 1: a six page spread of close ups of men's crotches

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Speaker 1: bulging out of swim trunks, sailor pants, boxing shorts, a

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Speaker 1: thong like banana hammock. So that was a layout that

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Speaker 1: was really had nothing to do with what we use

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Speaker 1: a magazine we were producing. In some ways it has

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Speaker 1: split personality. Now, a crotch section is of course a

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Speaker 1: natural fit for a straight women's porn magazine, but maybe

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Speaker 1: not these crotches shown in this way. The editors were

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Speaker 1: trying to make a smart, even elite publication, but their

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Speaker 1: work is always juxtaposed next to corny, sometimes even juvenile

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Speaker 1: pictures of dogs. The Viva women. They were trying to

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Speaker 1: make their own version of Esquire, not a joke magazine

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Speaker 1: with banana hammock schlungs. And while Cathy is in charge

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Speaker 1: of all this, she's also in a difficult position. She

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Speaker 1: has to right this wrongheaded ship, and her number one

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Speaker 1: solution is pushing dick picks. The editors hate, but some

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Speaker 1: readers say they like Cathy is so determined to make

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Speaker 1: the dicks work that she forces the entire editorial team

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Speaker 1: on a media tour to defend Viva's male nudity. So

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Speaker 1: I had to go on TV shows and radio interviews

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Speaker 1: and things like that and defend this idea that women

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Speaker 1: liked to look at male nudity as a way men

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Speaker 1: like to look at female nudity. And I just close

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Speaker 1: my eyes and did it. I don't think really any

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Speaker 1: of the editors were really interested, you know. In that

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Speaker 1: side of the magazine, it's another iteration of erotica. The

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Speaker 1: women at Viva again are never consulted about, but feel

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Speaker 1: they have no choice but to accept. Kathy's pushing more

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Speaker 1: and more of her version of sexiness in Viva. But

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Speaker 1: she's still letting Bob Guccioni art directed. It's an all

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Speaker 1: in the family, one two punch, a leadership force that's

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Speaker 1: impossible for the editors to break. Viva's young feminists are

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Speaker 1: left on more. They need a leader, they can look

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Speaker 1: up to, someone who's on their side, and they're about

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Speaker 1: to get it. I didn't want to be curtailed, and

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Speaker 1: I yes, I did break the rules There's no question

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Speaker 1: about it. Stiffed as an original podcast from iHeartMedia and

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Speaker 1: Crooked Media. It's produced by Crooked Media. It's hosted and

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Speaker 1: written by me Jennifer Romalini and produced by Megan Donnas.

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Speaker 1: Sidney Rapp is our associate producer, Story editing by Mary Knopf,

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Speaker 1: music sound design and engineering by Hannis Brown. Our fact

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Speaker 1: checker is Julia Paskin. Additional production support from Noafola Kato

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Speaker 1: and Inez Maza. Thanks to Natalie Robamed for reading the

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Speaker 1: voice of Katain Keaton from Crooked Media. Our executive producers

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Speaker 1: are Sarah Geismer, Katie Long, and Mary Knopf, with special

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Speaker 1: thanks to Alison Falzetta and Lyra Smith from iHeartMedia. Our

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Speaker 1: executive producers are Beth Ann Mcaluso and Julia Weaver.