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Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Hear's the

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Speaker 1: Thing from iHeart Radio. In January, I was at the

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Speaker 1: Sundance Film Festival and attended the premiere of The Dissident.

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Speaker 1: The Dissident was directed by Brian Fogel, winner of the

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Speaker 1: Best Documentary Oscar for his film Icarus. The Dissident recounts

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Speaker 1: the murder of Jamal Koshoji, a Saudi journalist who fled

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Speaker 1: his home country after crackdowns on descent in two thousand seventeen.

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Speaker 1: He lived in self exile in the United States, where

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Speaker 1: he wrote columns for The Washington Post that were often

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Speaker 1: critical of the Saudi government. The details of Koshoji's demise

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Speaker 1: are gruesome, to say the least. Turkish officials and the

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Speaker 1: CIA have concluded that Koshoji was killed and dismembered inside

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Speaker 1: the Saudi consulate in Istanbul. Film follows the investigation into

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Speaker 1: his murder, going so far as to implicate the highest

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Speaker 1: ranks of the Saudi government, including Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salmon.

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Speaker 1: Prior to the Sundance screening, I was introduced to a

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Speaker 1: Turkish woman backstage. We spoke briefly before taking our seats

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Speaker 1: in the theater. I did not catch her name. Only

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Speaker 1: when the lights came up and Fogel called to the

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Speaker 1: stage because Shoe's fiancee, a human rights activist who is

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Speaker 1: prominent in the film, did I realize she was the

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Speaker 1: woman I had the very hasty chat with backstage. My

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Speaker 1: guest today is that woman Hatija jens After the screening,

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Speaker 1: Jenkis was descended upon by admirers, and thus the opportunity

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Speaker 1: to speak with her again did not arise until today.

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Speaker 1: With the opportunity to speak with Hatija once more as

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Speaker 1: she joined me from Turkey, I wanted to learn about

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Speaker 1: her history with and how they first crossed paths. I

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Speaker 1: met him in Istanbul in two thousand eighteen. I knew

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Speaker 1: him as an academic, as a writer, as a follow

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Speaker 1: in the Gulf studies, and he's a very known journalist

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Speaker 1: in the Middle East or around the world. I was

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Speaker 1: watching him when he gives interviews on the televisions. There

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Speaker 1: is a no more very famous writer or journalists from

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Speaker 1: Middle East. Jamal one of the most popular and well

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Speaker 1: known person as a foreign policies and defending democracy and

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Speaker 1: human rights and the other values that we are talking

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Speaker 1: about and he was a very very open mind and

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Speaker 1: the different from others. But when I start for him closely,

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Speaker 1: it was at the beginning of the arts being I

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Speaker 1: met him in the conference. It was may. I think

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Speaker 1: he talks about the Gulf countries, the situation, about the crisis,

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Speaker 1: and you know, human rights and there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: problems and issues that you cannot talk about the GCC

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Speaker 1: countries so very easily. So Jamal was out of South

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Speaker 1: Arabia at that time. He attended the conference from the States,

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Speaker 1: but I wasn't aware all of the information. Very closely,

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Speaker 1: you were not aware of his status with the saudiast

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Speaker 1: meaning when you met him in two thousand and eighteen,

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Speaker 1: he already was in self exile. He was villainized by

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Speaker 1: them in two thousand seventeen. So when you met him physically,

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Speaker 1: when you first, he was in the thick of it. Yes,

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Speaker 1: But I knew that he has moved to United States,

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Speaker 1: but I wasn't able to understand the whole these details.

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Speaker 1: I expected that he moved for a time for some period,

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Speaker 1: because I couldn't understand how someone like Jamal left his

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Speaker 1: country forever. You know, all this information I received afterwards

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Speaker 1: from Jamal when relations start between us. I made him

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Speaker 1: in the conference and as a listener. I did not

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Speaker 1: give any speech in that conference. And after the conference

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Speaker 1: break time, I said hello, I introduced myself and I said,

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Speaker 1: I am studied about Oman and I'm interested in golf

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Speaker 1: countries more than four years. And of course we were

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Speaker 1: talking in Arabic, and he interested in the sort of

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Speaker 1: these details that I know about the Gulf. It was

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Speaker 1: like electricity between two people. It wasn't a conversation just

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Speaker 1: between men and women. It was more than that. I

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Speaker 1: can say. It was a very warm conversation. I'm quite

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Speaker 1: surprised that man like Jamal was very humble to listen

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Speaker 1: to people like me, a very young researcher, and he

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Speaker 1: give me a chance to introduce myself and to talk

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Speaker 1: to him. And I thought, if you have some time,

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Speaker 1: can I do like a short interview or talk with

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Speaker 1: you more. And he didn't reply. He didn't response the questions,

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Speaker 1: so I said it's okay, I shouldn't ask more than this,

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Speaker 1: and I said I will be around and if you

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Speaker 1: like to talk to me, I will be really happy.

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Speaker 1: And then I left him. It was a break time

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Speaker 1: for coffee or something, and then I started following the

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Speaker 1: other sections and then talking with my friends and the

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Speaker 1: other young journalists and researchers, and he came and said, hello,

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Speaker 1: how are you. I want to talk to you if

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Speaker 1: you have time, and then we start talking about his experience,

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Speaker 1: the last moment that he had. I asked some questions

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Speaker 1: and he applied and he even allowed me to record this.

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Speaker 1: So it was the beginning of my relation with Jamal.

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Speaker 1: And we had a good conversation like half an hour

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Speaker 1: or forty minutes, and then he said, very nice to

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Speaker 1: meet you. He felt a very comfortable with me that

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Speaker 1: he wants to talk about more. But what I'm wondering though,

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Speaker 1: is knowing, as we do in the timeline that he

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Speaker 1: was already, you know, in a lot of trouble with

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Speaker 1: these people when he met you. Was he concerned when

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Speaker 1: you came into his life? Was he concerned about you?

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Speaker 1: And were you concerned about you? Did you think you

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Speaker 1: might be in danger? Actually I wasn't aware of all

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Speaker 1: the danger of his life in that level. Even Jamal

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Speaker 1: didn't knew that this people become like enemies to him,

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Speaker 1: try to put in jail or arrest him. He didn't

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Speaker 1: mention at all. You know if you have a relation

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Speaker 1: with someone like Jamal and that level, you cannot ask

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Speaker 1: any question very easily, do not hurt him. I was

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Speaker 1: very careful to understand demands, feelings and emotions tuition because

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Speaker 1: he was really really lonely that time. I was really

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Speaker 1: careful to not ask any question that I want to ask.

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Speaker 1: I just one time, remember ask him, do you think

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Speaker 1: that I have to know some sort of information or

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Speaker 1: kind of things that I have to know now before

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Speaker 1: the marriage because we were busy with buying home or

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Speaker 1: some sort of things for for house in that period.

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Speaker 1: I asked this question, and then he asked me why

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Speaker 1: you are asking this, and I said, because I do

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Speaker 1: not want to get in surprised after the marriage that

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Speaker 1: you didn't tell me something like the big issues in

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Speaker 1: your life, or if you have any points that you

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Speaker 1: hid me. I don't know. I just asked the question.

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Speaker 1: It seems that what you're saying is that neither one

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Speaker 1: of you was really fully aware. Even he wasn't fully

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Speaker 1: aware of the lengths these people were willing to go

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Speaker 1: to get him. Yes, he did not know anything kind

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Speaker 1: of dis thing, because I remember he once told me

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Speaker 1: his close friends, all of them in prisons right now.

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Speaker 1: He was very, very worrying about them, very sad about them.

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Speaker 1: He was crying every day about their stories. So when

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Speaker 1: you're in the Saudi consulate, when he goes in, and

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Speaker 1: you're there in Istanbul at that point in your life,

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Speaker 1: he had been forced to make the painful choice to

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Speaker 1: leave his wife and his family in Saudi. But he

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Speaker 1: was going to the consulate to get proof that he

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Speaker 1: was no longer married to his first wife in order

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Speaker 1: to be able to marry you. I mean he was

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Speaker 1: working for the Washington Post with the two of you

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Speaker 1: planning to stay in Turkey. What was your plan once

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Speaker 1: you were married? Where were you going to live? He

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Speaker 1: said to me, My relation with my country, with my

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Speaker 1: government is not that much bad that I have to

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Speaker 1: worry about. He said to me that. He said, Look,

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Speaker 1: I have worked to my country more than thirty five

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Speaker 1: years or forty years. I am a very well known journalist.

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Speaker 1: I am not criticizing Saudi. That's bad. I just advised them.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't do that in Saudi Arabia. Now I am

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Speaker 1: doing that in d C. He believed that there is

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Speaker 1: a good relation between him and Saudi because I am

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Speaker 1: not sody I am not living in Saudi Arabia. You

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Speaker 1: say that he didn't live in a general state of

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Speaker 1: fear of what the Saudis would do to him. I

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Speaker 1: guess it never crossed his mind that this was possible.

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Speaker 1: The first visiting, me and him, we went to Any

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Speaker 1: eight September before the second visiting, and he came out

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Speaker 1: like forty five minutes or something like that, and he

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Speaker 1: said to me, okay, it went very well. He was

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Speaker 1: very happy when he came out. He said, they gave

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Speaker 1: me coffee tea and asked about me my marriage, and

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Speaker 1: they encouraged me. They asked me some questions and we

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Speaker 1: have chat. He said to me, I am really happy

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Speaker 1: that I faced the very very nice picture of my

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Speaker 1: country that I was worrying about. He said to me that,

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Speaker 1: and he also sent some messages to his friends and

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Speaker 1: shared these his happiness. It's not just me and yet.

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Speaker 1: And he enters the building. He hands you to cell

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Speaker 1: phones and tells you if anything happens, you should contact

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Speaker 1: Airnagon himself. No, it wasn't true. Actually, he told me

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Speaker 1: I don't want to go to consulate. I don't want

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Speaker 1: to face this country and I am outside of Saudi

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Speaker 1: and maybe they will question me, they will get me

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Speaker 1: on pressure or some kind of these things. I don't

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Speaker 1: want to face it. But there is no way to

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Speaker 1: get married with you, and I want you like my wife.

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Speaker 1: He said to me to saw the consulate. They are

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Speaker 1: asking the phones out of the consulate, I mean out

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Speaker 1: of the offices inside the consulate, and they are keeping

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Speaker 1: them like in a box inside the concert. And I

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Speaker 1: don't trust in this situation, and I want you keep

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Speaker 1: them because lots of things in his phones, and you know,

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Speaker 1: messages that he don't want to share with these people.

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Speaker 1: And then he said, put this and he went in.

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Speaker 1: He didn't tell me call anyone or do some calls

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Speaker 1: with any kind of people or something like that. I

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Speaker 1: just said to him, don't worry. I'm here if something happens.

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Speaker 1: So when you win in in the first visit and

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Speaker 1: you go in to answer some questions and everything seems normal,

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Speaker 1: you know, everything seems like it's just functioning normally. They

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Speaker 1: they've got a job to do when you're going to

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Speaker 1: answer these questions. So when you go back the second time,

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Speaker 1: the faithful time, when you go then why didn't you

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Speaker 1: go into the building with him? Then why did he

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Speaker 1: want you to wait outside the rules of the consulate.

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Speaker 1: They did not allow to go inside with him. And

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Speaker 1: then I started waiting. It went like one hour, it

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Speaker 1: is okay, two hours, yes, you can say okay. But

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Speaker 1: after two hours, because it was a very simple conversation

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Speaker 1: the first time, and he said to me it was

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Speaker 1: a very nice conversation, and I thought it might be

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Speaker 1: like a more conversation questions. You know, the other people

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Speaker 1: talks a lot, so I don't know. After two hours,

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Speaker 1: I checked the time when the consulate close and it

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Speaker 1: was like three forty something like that, or maybe four,

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Speaker 1: And of course I was waiting a front of door.

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Speaker 1: Jamal did not came, and I was relaxed and and

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Speaker 1: I felt that not can happen. You know, he's in

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Speaker 1: there and hours go by. It's one thing to come

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Speaker 1: out to him and say, oh, he's not in the building.

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Speaker 1: He left, someone took him whatever. It's another thing for

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Speaker 1: them to tell you exactly what happened. When did you

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Speaker 1: find out exactly what happened to him? I called the

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Speaker 1: Consulate to explain myself. I am her Teag Turkey citizen.

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Speaker 1: I'm waiting out of door. Jamal did not come. Where

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Speaker 1: is Jamal. And then he said who you are and

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Speaker 1: then where are you right now? And then he came

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Speaker 1: out and checked on me and told me there is

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Speaker 1: no one inside. And I started worrying. It was a

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Speaker 1: very huge scared inside me. I made calls with people,

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Speaker 1: lots of people with a very worrying situation, and I

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Speaker 1: also called with my friends to come to stay with

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Speaker 1: me there because I felt there's something going on. And

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Speaker 1: so the situation at that time, I learned from guy

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Speaker 1: that came from Sudi consulate and then told me by

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Speaker 1: saying there is no one inside the consulate, there is

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Speaker 1: no Jamal. Jamal is not inside. He did not give

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Speaker 1: me more information and he went back and then I

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Speaker 1: started waiting. There so no Istanbul or Turkish police sat

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Speaker 1: you down and said they did not tell me. I

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Speaker 1: asked many times during the investigations, because when police question you,

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Speaker 1: they evegased me as well as a close person. So

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Speaker 1: I asked them and I also asked the head of

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Speaker 1: the court when they start investigation, and they said to me,

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Speaker 1: we are searching still, we are trying to understand. They

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Speaker 1: said to me, we still do some formation are not

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Speaker 1: clean or some kind of these responses that I received

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Speaker 1: from the people, and also this gave me a kind

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Speaker 1: of hope. You know, there wasn't any declaration or any

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Speaker 1: clear message that I received from the official one, so

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Speaker 1: I told, okay, let's see because you know, it is

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Speaker 1: a huge like a nightmare or tragedy you cannot believe,

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Speaker 1: and I did not able to understand what's going on.

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Speaker 1: I still very big shot and not the word that

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Speaker 1: I was leaving game. I am a not dead person

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Speaker 1: before Jamal Patija Jenis. If you appreciate conversations with international activists,

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Speaker 1: check out my episode with the director of the Crisis

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Speaker 1: and Conflict Division at Human Rights Watch, Ida Sawyer. They're

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Speaker 1: different kinds of chronic human rights abuses in different regions,

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Speaker 1: but I think in in countries where you have more

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Speaker 1: authoritarian governments, where you don't have freedom of expression, freedom

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Speaker 1: of the press, and there's crackdowns on political opposition leaders,

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Speaker 1: journalist activists, that's where we see some of the worst abuses,

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Speaker 1: and that can sometimes be related to abuses linked to

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Speaker 1: access to healthcare, education and those sorts of human rights

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Speaker 1: as well. To hear more of my conversation with Ida Sawyer,

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Speaker 1: go to Here's the Thing dot org. After the break,

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Speaker 1: Tiger shares her reaction to seeing the tragedy of Jamal

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Speaker 1: Kao's death brought to life in The Dissident. I'm Alec

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Speaker 1: Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. Director Brian

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Speaker 1: Fogel's filmed The Dissident directly implicates Mohammed Ben Salmon's involvement

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Speaker 1: in the murder of Jamal ka Shoji. It is perhaps

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons the film struggled initially to find

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Speaker 1: a buyer. I wanted to know how he Tiger came

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Speaker 1: to meet Brian Focal. He reached me out at the

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Speaker 1: time that we have learned from Saldi that Jamal has

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Speaker 1: been killed, and it was a huge waves around toward

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Speaker 1: so it's whether big and huge shock for everyone, and

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Speaker 1: everyone also tried to reach me out to make an interview.

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Speaker 1: One of them was Brian. He phoned me and he

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Speaker 1: asked me to come to Istanbul to visit me and

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Speaker 1: he wants to make a film for tomorrow. But after

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Speaker 1: that phone call, Champagne he has called me as well

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Speaker 1: and then he came before Brian visited me in Istanbul

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Speaker 1: and then we met and we talked. He was a

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Speaker 1: very very touch with this story, and he cried and

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Speaker 1: I cried, and we talked and it was a very

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Speaker 1: unique time. And then Brian came and then he did

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Speaker 1: not mention lots of things about the detail. And then

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Speaker 1: I listened to Brian and I decided to with Brian

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Speaker 1: because I listened him very carefully, and he said, look,

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Speaker 1: this my plan, and I will do that during the year,

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Speaker 1: and I will start that time and I'll finished that time,

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Speaker 1: and I have a film about the staff in Russia,

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Speaker 1: the Acarus. And then I have watched also his film,

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Speaker 1: and I said, look, it is something that it's serious.

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Speaker 1: I have to make a decision between them. And also

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Speaker 1: they collaborated. Yeah, they worked together to produce the film.

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Speaker 1: Brian was professional for these details. So it went very well.

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Speaker 1: When you finally see the film, what was that like?

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Speaker 1: What was your reaction? My reaction was very interesting that

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Speaker 1: I cried a lot. I was in Italy. I watched

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Speaker 1: it before sentence because according to our agreement, that was

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Speaker 1: a condition that I have to see before release. So

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Speaker 1: I watched there. I didn't believe that all these things

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Speaker 1: happened again and again. It was the first time to

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Speaker 1: see myself, which the the real tragedy, and then you

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Speaker 1: are a part of this tragedy in reality, not in

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Speaker 1: your mind or in my mind, in my heart. Now

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Speaker 1: I'm seeing what happened to me to jama and I

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Speaker 1: started to realize how a huge things happened and happening

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Speaker 1: in my life, how I feel deal with this, how

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Speaker 1: I will start living like any normal person. And I

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Speaker 1: start to realize that my life has changed one or

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Speaker 1: more now at the time of the event, at the

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Speaker 1: time of his murder in the consulate, the film depicts

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Speaker 1: certain police detectives what have you, whether they're in the

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Speaker 1: city of Istanbul or their National police figures in Turkey itself.

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Speaker 1: Did you trust the Istanbul and the Turkish police authorities

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Speaker 1: with the work that they did. Did you feel you

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Speaker 1: that they were genuinely trying to solve the case? Yes,

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Speaker 1: they did. I think in this case they did a

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Speaker 1: great job because they were in a very big shock

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Speaker 1: like me. I remember the time that questioning me to

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Speaker 1: understand because no one knows about tomorrow. By the way,

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Speaker 1: in Turkey, the normal people in the country, they try

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Speaker 1: to understand why did this happen in Turkey? In Istanbul,

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Speaker 1: they try to understand what's going on. So his children

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Speaker 1: eventually at some point inform the Saudi government through whatever

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Speaker 1: channels that they don't want these people that were arrested.

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Speaker 1: They want them pardoned and they don't want them to

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Speaker 1: face the death penalty. What were your feelings about that?

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Speaker 1: Were you disappointed? I understand. I tried to understand more

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Speaker 1: and more. It wasn't easy. At the time that they

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Speaker 1: made a deficion. I decided to not make any comment

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Speaker 1: why because it is not my point that I fight

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Speaker 1: with his family. I mean Jamal's family. They are not

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Speaker 1: my enemies, and they decided to forgive the criminals, in

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Speaker 1: my opinion, not because they want. They forced the biggest

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Speaker 1: challenges in their life and they made this decision for

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Speaker 1: their life. I have to respect why because I am

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Speaker 1: not sorry, I am not living in Saudi Arabia, and

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Speaker 1: also they are Jamal's family. There is no point to

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Speaker 1: fight with these people. And if I meet them, I

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Speaker 1: am sure I will become a very close friend of them.

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Speaker 1: How many children does he have? Total? Four, two sons,

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Speaker 1: two daughters. Me and Jamal and Jama's son went to

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Speaker 1: cafe and launched together dinner together. I take them to

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Speaker 1: do best restaurant in the Bosphorus and v spent a very,

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Speaker 1: very wonderful time together before he's killed, had teacher Jenkis.

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Speaker 1: If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a friend and be

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Speaker 1: sure to follow Here's the thing on the I Heart

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00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 1: radio app, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. When

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Speaker 1: we come back at tjer Jenkis shares who Jamal Kashi

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Speaker 1: really was. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's

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Speaker 1: the Thing. After the assassination of Jamal Kashoji, then President

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Speaker 1: Trump went against his own intelligence community, saying he believed

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Speaker 1: Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed ben Solomon was not involved in

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Speaker 1: the killing. Recently, the Crown Prince was grant immunity as

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Speaker 1: sitting head of government by the Biden administration, and her

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Speaker 1: teacher's lawsuit against him was then dismissed. To date, Jenkis

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Speaker 1: has appeared before the u N, the European Parliament, and

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Speaker 1: a tribunal at the Hague calling for justice for her fiancee.

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Speaker 1: I was curious if she felt these international organizations would

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Speaker 1: continue the fight for accountability. Actually, at the beginning they

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Speaker 1: gave me some sort of hope by words, but at

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Speaker 1: the moment, what I am doing or what I'm planning

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Speaker 1: to do is we are working on a progress that

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Speaker 1: trying to understand from jurisdiction, international jurisdiction that which country

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Speaker 1: that we can do something more Trump for that time

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Speaker 1: it was president and he has stayed with NBS directly

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Speaker 1: without any accusing and he in sure that he will

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Speaker 1: not do any kind of moment against him, and he

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Speaker 1: tried to defend him in a very interesting ways. So

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Speaker 1: after this position, what I understand from the politics, if

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Speaker 1: the United States did not sign that it will do

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Speaker 1: something and then the others follows them to the United

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Speaker 1: States has typically a leadership role among people in the

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Speaker 1: international community, and they've abandoned that role. Now in this case, yes,

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Speaker 1: they did follow the United States very closely and very directly.

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Speaker 1: And because of this, I start understand from the European

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Speaker 1: Parliament and the United Nations, which I gave more than

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Speaker 1: one time speech and I asked more questions and investigation,

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Speaker 1: they did not take any sort of serious action after

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Speaker 1: the report. Even the United Asian did not take any

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Speaker 1: step against the criminals. So what would I do. In Turkey,

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Speaker 1: they also have finished and closed the case and sent

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Speaker 1: to Saudi Arabia. And then you know also say it

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Speaker 1: gave the criminals the immunity. So the plan is now

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Speaker 1: that I have to carry on this mission and vision

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Speaker 1: that keep Jamal's nay alive. So you haven't given up,

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Speaker 1: that's what you're saying. You have not given up. I

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Speaker 1: need to get the truth. I need it because still

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Speaker 1: we don't know Jamal's body were. We still don't know

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Speaker 1: why and what happened to him, why they killed Jamal.

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Speaker 1: I thought The Dissident was a wonderful film and and

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Speaker 1: a highly disturbing one. When you watch the film, he

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Speaker 1: is the subject, and I was overcome really by how

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Speaker 1: charming he was, how funny he was. He had this little, ry,

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Speaker 1: little look on his face. He was an unusually bright

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Speaker 1: and clever man. But when you watch the film, you

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Speaker 1: kind of become very warm towards the case, and you

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Speaker 1: really really he wins you over in your mind when

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Speaker 1: you tell people who was Jamal to you? In general,

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Speaker 1: you cannot find easily a kind man. You can find

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Speaker 1: rich man, you can find handsome men, who can find

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Speaker 1: you know, famous man. For example, Jamal was a very

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Speaker 1: generous person. He was a kind and humble person. A

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Speaker 1: good listener, and he understands woman and how they think

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Speaker 1: about man's and talking very few words but meaning words

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Speaker 1: and try to understand from the behaves, not from the

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Speaker 1: words that I was looking for. And Jamal was a

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Speaker 1: man who understand from the eyes, from the feelings, from

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Speaker 1: the hearts, and from the behind of words and behind

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Speaker 1: your beauty and behind your feelings. He said, the most

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Speaker 1: important point in life is to understand someone who loves you.

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Speaker 1: And he said, you I ever met in my life,

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Speaker 1: any person like you that you loved me, very different

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Speaker 1: from any woman I met. So I understand him from inside,

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Speaker 1: not from outside. I met Jamal as a man in reality,

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Speaker 1: not as a journalist. You are talking about someone who

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Speaker 1: lost everything. He left his country, he left his family,

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Speaker 1: his children, his wife's, his famous city, and you know,

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Speaker 1: started over. And he he's not happy with that. He

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Speaker 1: made this decision because of the situation. But he far

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Speaker 1: himself very lonely and very weak at the same time.

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Speaker 1: But he cannot explain this part to people to understand him.

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Speaker 1: So the situation was very unique. I can say that

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Speaker 1: one time he asked me he was worrying about my

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Speaker 1: feature a little bit, and then he asked me many times,

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Speaker 1: are you happy with me? Or are you scared? I said,

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Speaker 1: it's okay, because I want to live with you whenever

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Speaker 1: I can or you can. I want to share with

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Speaker 1: my life with you whenever you are alive in this life.

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Speaker 1: He just touched my soul and also at the same time,

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Speaker 1: I thought his soul because I did not got married

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Speaker 1: with someone famous. He wasn't famous with me. He wasn't

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Speaker 1: that rich man with me. He was a very, very

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Speaker 1: honest and open and humble and smiling person. With someone

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Speaker 1: like me. It was like the big present from God

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Speaker 1: that you cannot expect that much peak because when he came,

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Speaker 1: he covered the whole things that I lost in my life. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to use a cliche like the love

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Speaker 1: story between the two of you, but as two people

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Speaker 1: who meet each other under these circumstances, and you only

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Speaker 1: knew him very briefly, you only knew him for a

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Speaker 1: matter of months before the horrible event occurred. The other

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Speaker 1: tragedy of this story is how you felt about each

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Speaker 1: other and how you came together. That's a huge part

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Speaker 1: of the story for me, as for a man who

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Speaker 1: had to abandon his family, didn't want to do that

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Speaker 1: and found someone like you. You're obviously a incredibly bright, educated,

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Speaker 1: engaged person, and the two of you come together and

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Speaker 1: then this terrible thing happens. That's among the saddest parts

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Speaker 1: of the story of all. Just the last word that

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Speaker 1: I want to say. If you saw want asked me,

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Speaker 1: what did you understand from your story or what did

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Speaker 1: you face through this story that you face it in

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Speaker 1: your life. I have achieved the two things, the personal

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Speaker 1: things and general things. The personal things from Jamal, The

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Speaker 1: first one that any person in the life the need

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Speaker 1: is a safety. Jamal left his country because of safety,

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Speaker 1: and without love, no one can leave. Jamal was needed

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Speaker 1: the real love when he left his country. The safety,

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Speaker 1: love and faith. You have to have a faith or

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Speaker 1: goal in this life. It is from the personal side

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Speaker 1: that we have to keep all these the treatings in

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Speaker 1: our life, our safety, our loves, and our goals. I

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Speaker 1: am grateful to you for doing this. I really really am.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. M H my thanks to human rights activist

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Speaker 1: at t J Jenkis. This episode was recorded at c

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Speaker 1: DM Studios in New York City. We're produced by Kathleen Russo,

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Speaker 1: Zach McNeice and Maureen Hoban. Our engineer is Frank Imperial.

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Speaker 1: Our social media manager is Danielle Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin.

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Speaker 1: Here's the thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio