WEBVTT - Voternomics: How the Left Lost Its Way in Europe 0:00:05.519 --> 0:00:09.840 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. 0:00:18.079 --> 0:00:22.040 Welcome to another Voter Nomics where politics and markets collide. 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:24.560 This year, voters around the world have the ability to 0:00:24.720 --> 0:00:28.720 turn markets, countries and economies like never before, so we've 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:31.480 created this series to help you make sense of it all. 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:33.400 I'm Stephanie Flanders. 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:36.120 I made Frim Wildridge, and I'm Alegristratgy and on this 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:39.200 episode we thought we would take a closer look at 0:00:39.240 --> 0:00:43.120 the rise of right wing populism in Europe and we 0:00:43.159 --> 0:00:45.280 have obviously had our own variety of that on show 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:47.120 at the start of this week with the release of 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:51.400 the Reform Party's contract not manifesto with the UK, but 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:54.160 Nigel Faraj has spoken about wanting to be prime Minister 0:00:54.520 --> 0:00:55.560 after the next election. 0:00:55.960 --> 0:00:59.840 George of Maloney is already Prime Minister of Italy and 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:02.680 she was on show this weekend hosting her counterparts at 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:05.479 the g seventh summit in Pulia, and it was pretty 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:07.880 evident that she was the only leader with a spring 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:11.200 in her step and a favorable poll rating, so we 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:14.040 wanted to hear about the secrets of her success and 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:19.360 the lessons for mainstream and maybe also less mainstream conservative 0:01:19.360 --> 0:01:24.240 parties in the UK from one of her fans, Francesco Jubilee, 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:29.760 the president of the leading Italian conservative foundation, Fondatzioni Tartarella. 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:32.960 He's also the author of the History of European conservative thought. 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:35.720 And then we're going to hear a completely different perspective 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:39.039 from Janis Fara Facis, who of course you will know 0:01:39.120 --> 0:01:44.000 as the former Finance Minister of Greece, motorbike owner and 0:01:44.160 --> 0:01:48.400 author of several international best selling books, including recently Techno 0:01:48.520 --> 0:01:53.200 Feudalism What Killed Capitalism. So, Adrian Alegre, it does feel 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:56.280 like a week to be thinking about the rise of 0:01:56.360 --> 0:01:59.760 the right in Europe. We can see also in this 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:04.280 election that Macrants called in France, obviously a big focus 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:10.600 on Marine Le Penn's Class Envelementale party formerly the National Front. 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:13.120 I want to understand it, but I also want to 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:16.400 think about lessons, as I said, for everybody in the UK. 0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:17.320 Yeah. One of the. 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:21.600 Striking things about the writers that these are nationalist movements 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:24.440 and the things that they hate most of all are 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:28.440 the sort of the global devils, elites, and yet in 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:31.880 some ways they are in themselves international. They learn from 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:34.000 each other, they imitate each other, And I was just 0:02:34.040 --> 0:02:38.200 thinking of Farage who has launched his contract this morning 0:02:38.280 --> 0:02:42.280 contract with you, and that's directly taken from New Gingrich. 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:44.880 You know, we don't have that in British politics. We 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:48.200 have manifestos. You know, Peel launched the whole thing with 0:02:48.240 --> 0:02:51.320 the Tom Tamworth manifesto. Now we have somebody using the 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:57.639 language of a contractarian society like the United States. And 0:02:58.360 --> 0:03:01.360 you know, his own political party is really a political party. 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:06.440 It's a private company which treats him as a star, 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:08.800 not as a party leader, but as a star with 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:11.600 lots and lots of followers, which is exactly the politics 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:14.239 that you see with Trump, but also with a lot 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:18.840 of European populist leaders. So it's a strange mixture of 0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:21.120 nationalism and internationalism that we're seeing. 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:25.040 But Adrian he's leading a revolt, you know, he's making 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:26.960 a play of that. Isn't He's not a manifesto because 0:03:26.960 --> 0:03:28.079 that would be too vanilla, wouldn't that? 0:03:28.160 --> 0:03:30.360 Yeah, I suppose so. But they're all in some sense 0:03:30.480 --> 0:03:33.120 leading revolts. But in a lot of Europe now they're 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:36.240 moving from being a party of revolt to being a 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:38.440 party of government. And you see that with the French 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:39.440 in particular. 0:03:39.000 --> 0:03:41.000 And This is what I think is interesting because although 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:43.880 they are all considered themselves to be in the same 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:47.280 family to some extent, although actually recently none of them 0:03:47.320 --> 0:03:49.880 have got on very well with the alternative. For Deutschlan 0:03:50.000 --> 0:03:52.720 Yes Party, he's considered to be beyond the pale, even 0:03:52.760 --> 0:03:57.120 in far right circles. But I think Georgia Maloney's leadership 0:03:57.160 --> 0:04:00.640 her time in government has been very interesting in the 0:04:00.680 --> 0:04:03.600 way that she's been willing to compromise, willing to have 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:09.480 very mainstream views and policies on Ukraine on quite a 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:11.400 lot of economic things, and I thought it was very 0:04:11.400 --> 0:04:14.440 striking these statements that nobody really cares about except the 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:17.520 people drafting them. But they have this communic case from 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:19.920 the G seven, and the only disagreement of all the 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:22.840 things they'd agreed on this very important package for Ukraine 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:26.839 and other things, was around the restatement of support for 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:31.440 reproductive rights and safe and legal abortion from last year's communicate, 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:33.000 And I thought it was interesting that the one thing 0:04:33.360 --> 0:04:36.920 she was actually sort of playing ball and to all 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:39.960 intentsive purposes being a mainstream leader when it came to 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:44.479 many of these important European issues, But on that core 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:48.560 cultural ground she still had to mark out a more 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:52.640 traditional and more in some ways it was more to 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:53.240 her base. 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:56.680 Absolutely well. We tend to talk about the far rights 0:04:56.680 --> 0:05:00.600 and the right, but there are very important in terms divisions. 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:03.800 There's a division between the pro pro Putin people and 0:05:03.839 --> 0:05:06.640 the anti Puotin people, and there's a division over sort 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:10.320 of responsible economic policy as well, and I think probably 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:12.920 some fundamental cultural divisions. If you look at the far 0:05:13.080 --> 0:05:16.360 right in the Netherlands, for example, it's very pro gay 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:18.640 rights because it's basic critique. 0:05:21.320 --> 0:05:24.039 But in some ways this is a topsy turvy conversation 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:26.920 because actually if you look at Maloney and her international allies, 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:30.840 you would say Ishi Sunac, you know, is her intellectual bedfellow, because. 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:32.960 They do seem to get on quite well. 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:36.200 And her and her Albania plan, which looks like some 0:05:36.360 --> 0:05:39.359 European politicians are falling behind, which is, you know, the 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:43.520 idea of having the immigrants processed off shore is partly 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:46.920 inspired by Rwanda. So there's a kind of topsy turviness 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:49.400 because you know, her mate, Rishi Sunac, he was doing 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:52.760 so badly in the opinion polls, potentially is leaving government. 0:05:53.080 --> 0:05:56.479 But actually some of the ideas he's espoused in government 0:05:57.680 --> 0:05:59.400 are those in the ascendant. 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:03.000 That shows again, I mean it's immigration as this absolutely 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:05.560 core driving force for some of this. But there has 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:07.760 been a question about whether Kiss Darmer will have anyone 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:10.160 to talk to at these summits. He will be the 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:13.360 exception if we see all of these sort of mainstream 0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:17.200 centrists and right leaders go in the next few years. 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:19.880 That's the other topsy turbinus that Britain is completely out 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:22.400 of sync with Europe and may well be out of 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:24.320 sync with the United States as well. We may be 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:28.840 the one surviving area for liberal Democrats to look at. 0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:33.680 What Kiss Darmer's foreign affairs spokesperson David Lammy is saying, 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:36.880 you know, regarding Trump, you know and others you know, 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:39.520 they are they are cognizant that they are going to 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:40.440 have to work with everybody. 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:43.000 Yes, Lammi is somewhat changed his tune on Trump. 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:44.960 I think well, I suspect. I think I have a 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:50.480 feeling partly from looking at our outlines for future weeks. 0:06:50.520 --> 0:07:04.599 I think we'll be getting on incoming incoming days. So 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:08.240 we should move to our conversation with Francisco Jubile, the 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:14.520 president of the Italian Conservative Foundation Fondazioni Tartarella. Francesca, thank 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:17.560 you so much for joining us. We are fascinated looking 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:21.560 at Georgia Moloni at the recent g seventh summit and 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:28.280 obviously in previous months, really comfortable in her position as 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:34.640 Prime Minister of Italy and successful both domestically, and it 0:07:34.720 --> 0:07:39.720 seems at these international summits. So I guess the obvious 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:42.960 question is what's the secret of her success? 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:48.280 I think that Georgia Meloni is becoming here by here 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:52.280 an important leader not only for Italy, not only for 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:56.680 our country, and not only for the Italian conservative right, 0:07:57.200 --> 0:08:02.239 but also for the European Lensks, especially after the result 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:07.080 of the European elections, because we saw that the result 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:08.760 of the President of. 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:12.080 France, Emanuel Macron was not a good result. 0:08:12.400 --> 0:08:16.800 In fact, the result of Simble More National and Marie 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:21.080 lepen was quite good, and the same is for all 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:24.880 of Schortz, the leader of Germany. And in the case 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:29.200 of Italy, Georgia Meloney had a really important result, not 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:33.120 only as the leader of Fertality Italian, the main Italian 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:37.560 center right party, but also for all the Italian government. 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:41.439 And after that we are entering in a new phase 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:45.560 for the European Union right now there are some important 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:49.360 discussion for the president of the European Commission and the 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:54.120 Georgia Meronic can play an important role as Prime Minister 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:57.000 of Italy, but also as the president of the. 0:08:56.880 --> 0:09:00.960 E CR and the leader of the main Itally party. 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:03.600 I guess one thing we should sort of understand is 0:09:03.640 --> 0:09:06.640 whether we're even describing her in the right way. You know, 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:10.360 we talk about far right, and when she came to power, 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:14.240 we were very focused on her origins. But I wonder 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:19.079 whether she represents something different that's not a traditional kind 0:09:19.160 --> 0:09:22.240 of conservatism or certainly traditional far right. 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:29.000 Yeah, that is quite an important point. Usually when someone 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:33.319 especially abroad, but not only abroad, sometimes also in our country, 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:38.520 want to describe or sometimes attack Georgia Miloney or in 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:43.000 general some politicians that are part of the Italian right, 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:48.160 they describe them as a neo fascist or some people 0:09:48.200 --> 0:09:51.360 that are linked with some fascist idea, and I think 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:54.480 this is not correct and this is not the correct 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:58.920 way to try to understand what is happening in our country. 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:03.280 The truth is that the right that is represented by 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:07.320 Georgia Meloni is a conservative right. When I use the 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:11.840 word conservative is quite important to make an extinction between 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:17.240 the Latin conservatism and the Italian conservatism and the American 0:10:17.320 --> 0:10:22.320 and English conservatism, because there are some important difference, for example, 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:26.199 on the economic issues. Our conservatism is more focused on 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:30.319 welfare state, for example, and the British and the American 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:35.560 conservatism is more focused, for example, on some classical liberals ideas. 0:10:35.760 --> 0:10:39.240 So there are some difference, of course, but in general, 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:42.640 the correct way to try to understand the why George 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:46.120 Meloni is becoming so important and so voted in our 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:49.920 country is because she's trying also to talk with the 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:51.000 lower class. 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:54.360 That in the past voted for the left. But right now, 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:57.320 if we saw also the result in the main city, 0:10:57.400 --> 0:11:00.600 for example, in the city center of Roma, or the 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:04.520 people vote for the left. If we we go to. 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:08.839 For example, some difficult areas of the of Roma, we 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:11.600 see that in this part of the city the people 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:12.800 decide to vote. 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:15.640 For for Formeloni, and this is quite interesting. 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:19.880 So I think that it's important to try to analyze 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:23.840 in a deeper way what is the success of JN. 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:24.280 Maloney. 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:27.320 I don't know how much of following British politics, but 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:31.880 who would you put Georgia Maloney closer to Brittie Sunac, 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:35.599 who's obviously a friend of hers, or Nigel Farah, she 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:36.720 leads the Reform Party. 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:42.440 I think definitely that she's closer to the Conservative Party, 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:47.400 the Tories, and to Sunak then to Farajef. There are 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:51.880 many points in common between Miloni and the Sunaco or 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:55.320 in general Miloni and the Conservative Party. But how I 0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:58.000 say to you before, there are also some difference because 0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:01.240 of course, to be conservative in Italy is different than 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:05.040 being a conservative in the UK, because our conservatism is 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:08.760 quite link for example, with the Catholic traditions. So when 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:12.280 we talk about the ethic themes, for example, in our 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:17.360 conservatism is quite close with the vision of the Catholic Church, 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:22.360 and this is a big difference with the Tories. But 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:24.920 in the same time, when we talk about Parage, I 0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:27.959 think in Italy we use a word there is not 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:32.959 a translation in English. The word is Soverignismo, is meaning 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:38.000 probably national populism or something like that. And when we 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:41.760 talk about Farage we can talk more than a conservative leader. 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:47.240 We can talk about a national populist leader. So I 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:51.920 think that Menoni is definitely closer to the Conservative Party. 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:55.920 You talked about her ability to reach beyond the sort 0:12:55.960 --> 0:12:58.200 of metropolitan elites who live in the middle of Romee 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:01.760 two ordinary people. How can she do that? What are 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:05.520 the things that bind the conservative leadership to the working 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:06.319 class voter. 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:09.880 In the bigger city or in the city center of 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:14.160 the bigger city, and the people vote for the left 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:18.120 or the center or left. When we go to the 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:24.080 neighborhood that are more close to some problems, for example 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:27.640 with the security, with the migration, the people decided to 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:31.160 vote for some a conservative party, and the same is 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:36.400 for example in some smaller city in our country, people 0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:41.319 decided to prefer and to vote for Georgia Maloney and 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:45.679 to vote for the center right a coalition because they 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:50.320 feel that the answers that Georgia Maloney give for example 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:54.560 with the migration problem, for example, on economic issues, for example, 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:56.520 on the European Union issues. 0:13:56.559 --> 0:13:59.000 There is a big debate in our country about. 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:03.280 The green police made by the European Union, especially for 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:08.800 the decision to stop in the engine motors in two 0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:12.320 thousand and thirty five, and because of that the people 0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:16.079 decide to vote for gentlemen only because also the lower 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:19.840 class think that the answers that the Conservatives and the 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:21.680 right gave to their problem. 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:24.200 Right now is closer to them than. 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:29.400 The left, So liberalism is becoming an elite project. It's 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:30.240 captured by the rich. 0:14:30.680 --> 0:14:33.640 I make you an example. I live in Roma. 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:38.760 Roma is probably the bigger capital in the European Union 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:44.040 or in European general, with the worst public transportation because 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:47.280 unfortunately the underground in Rome is not working as well. 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:49.600 And every time that they are trying to do some 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:52.920 new projects, they discover some ancient Roman ruins, so it's 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:58.720 quite difficult to build a bigger underground. And in Roma 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:02.880 there is a left. This measure, and the idea of 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:07.080 the measure was to create a bigger zone in which 0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:11.160 the car couldn't hunterer and this of course creates some 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:14.160 problem not to the rich people which lived in the 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:17.520 center of the city and they can move walking or 0:15:17.560 --> 0:15:21.560 by taxi or by scooter, but this creates some big 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:26.440 problem for the poor people which live in some area 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:30.160 not near the city center, and they must take their 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:32.840 car to go to work, and of course they are 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:36.120 angry against the measure because of that. 0:15:36.680 --> 0:15:38.840 It is interesting that there's a similar kind of issue 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:41.880 in the UK around twenty miles per hour limits, which 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:47.240 is a popular campaigning force for many in our election Francisco. 0:15:47.400 --> 0:15:48.280 Where does this end? 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:53.400 Because is that the question? So where does this end? 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:56.200 In that Georgie Maloney looks like her deficit has gone 0:15:56.240 --> 0:15:57.600 up to seven point two percent. 0:15:57.680 --> 0:15:59.160 You'll correct me if I'm wrong. 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:03.840 So you you've very lucidly outlined how pro welfare spending 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:06.680 she is, and that's clearly important to her coalition of voters. 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:09.800 Can she afford to keep on being ultra popular? 0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:14.320 You mean about economy or you mean in general economy? 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:17.360 Yeah, under the procedures, you know, the fiscal rules for 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:20.000 the European Union, they could well have to do. She 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:22.480 should could have to do some very tough things which 0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:25.240 in the past have overturned Italian governments on a very 0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:26.120 regular basis. 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:30.440 This is quite an important point. I mean, our economy 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:33.200 is a good economy. We have the third economy of 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:38.200 European Union. We have a private incomes that is quite good. 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:41.680 Most of the Italians they own their house. We have 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:45.160 quite a strong bank system. So our economy is a 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:49.480 good economy. But our private economy is economy. Our problem 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:50.560 is the public economy. 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:51.400 And when we. 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:54.400 Talk about the public economy, we talk about the state 0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:59.080 which have a really hiked the public debt, and the 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:02.080 problem of our public debt is that the people, the 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:07.320 Italians and also the politician think about our public debuta 0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:10.399 as something that is of no one. In reality, the 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:13.760 public debt is a debt of everyone. The bigger problem 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:19.840 of our country compared to the high debty, is the 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:23.680 lower the possibility of growth of our economy. If we 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:27.800 we do in a comparasion between a high public debt 0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:32.159 and the low growth of our economy, this can create 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:34.800 some problem. But I have to say this is not 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:39.000 a problem of Meloni. This is the problem of everyone, which. 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:41.280 We leave with respect. Though it's going to be her problem. 0:17:41.320 --> 0:17:43.320 I mean, will that mark the end of her honeymoon 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:45.359 with the voters when she actually has to make the 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:48.639 same tough decisions about this to manage this big stock 0:17:48.680 --> 0:17:51.320 of debt that every government in Italy has had to 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:53.639 deal with for the last twenty or thirty years, and 0:17:53.720 --> 0:17:57.760 has actually managed to, you know, just about prevent from 0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:00.400 spiraling out of control. Has stepped back from the BIS 0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:03.520 quite a few times, each time by making very tough 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:06.400 decisions that she has sofa been quite reluctant to make. 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:12.879 Yes, I think that luckily the most the toughest decisions 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:18.520 were made ten years ago, especially in twenty eleven after 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:22.720 Monty government. It was a technical government and he made 0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:27.280 many tough decisions. So right now the public debty is 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:31.720 really height but it's more or less under control. Of course, 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:36.800 the COVID period didn't help us and didn't help everyone. 0:18:36.920 --> 0:18:40.879 So I think that Meloney she knows and she understands 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:45.520 that she doesn't have the opportunity of doing many economic 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:50.480 measures that are really in fervor in helping the in 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:53.840 the Italians, for example, cut the taxation. 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:56.600 But if she she. 0:18:56.760 --> 0:19:00.560 Won't, for example, introduced new taxation, this can be something 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:04.240 good for example, and I think that she will manage 0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:07.800 in Hinita and the economy is of course quite an 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:11.480 important issue, but there are other issues that are important 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:14.840 for the Italian electorate. For example, the migrant crisis is 0:19:14.880 --> 0:19:18.040 the topic that is quite important, especially in the south, 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:21.600 in the south of Italy foreign politics, and I think 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:26.240 that Menoni is managed quite well on this topic. And 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:29.800 of course she also has to manage in the European 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:34.520 Union contest, where also the economic situation of Germany, that 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:37.520 is the main economy of European Union, is becoming world 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:39.760 compared to three years ago. 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:42.479 Francisco to Bila. I'll be very interested to see her 0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:45.680 next few budgets, how she manages to square the circle. 0:19:46.520 --> 0:19:48.320 But in the meantime, and then we'll have you back. 0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:51.120 But in the meantime, thank you very much for joining us. 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:52.639 Thank you, it was a pleasure. 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:05.199 And now, as they say, for something completely different. Janasparafukis 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:09.800 Greece's Finance minister for six months in twenty fifteen, negotiating 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:12.440 on behalf of the Greek government during the Greek debt crisis, 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:15.679 who has also been secretary general of the Democracy in 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:19.520 Europe Movement twenty twenty five, a left wing pan European 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:23.960 political party he co founded in twenty sixteen. Janisparafuck is 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:26.920 very good to have you physically in the studio. Thanks 0:20:26.920 --> 0:20:28.720 for joining us on Vota Nomics. 0:20:28.840 --> 0:20:29.719 It's a great pleasure. 0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:31.880 We've got lots of things to talk to you about, 0:20:31.920 --> 0:20:35.280 but we are focusing on this program on the rise 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:39.720 of the populist right in Europe. I guess you know. 0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:42.960 One obvious question is why he is right wing populism 0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:46.960 so much more successful than left wing populism at the moment. 0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:50.520 Because it's authentic. I don't believe you can be left 0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:54.000 wing and the populist, because my definition of populism, whoor 0:20:54.040 --> 0:20:57.040 anderstand populism is to be all things to all people, 0:20:57.480 --> 0:21:00.760 make ausers of promises and then jump on a soapbox 0:21:01.520 --> 0:21:05.800 and being jingoistic and call upon people to trust you 0:21:06.160 --> 0:21:10.720 to make things great again and dot dot I won't 0:21:10.760 --> 0:21:13.000 go on, but that if you do that, then you're 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:16.119 not the left winger in my view, You're not a humanist, 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:21.600 you're not facing the truth, and you use up the 0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:26.440 people's vote against the people. So this is a kind 0:21:26.480 --> 0:21:29.320 of contest I have with other leftists would disagree with me. 0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:33.480 The two words left and popularism, you put them together, 0:21:33.520 --> 0:21:36.520 you end up with an incongruity. And so you know, 0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:40.280 when the left tries populism, it becomes ridiculous. When the 0:21:40.400 --> 0:21:43.800 right become populist and become fascist, and they are very 0:21:43.800 --> 0:21:46.399 successful as we have seen during the Middle War period 0:21:46.480 --> 0:21:48.800 the left, and that of course is the end of 0:21:48.840 --> 0:21:51.720 the left when the left, the. 0:21:51.720 --> 0:21:53.440 Left are too honest to be populists. 0:21:54.119 --> 0:21:58.320 The left should be honest and therefore should avoid populism 0:21:58.880 --> 0:21:59.920 in its pursuit of. 0:22:00.160 --> 0:22:05.760 Popular With the populist approach, even by your definition, we 0:22:05.880 --> 0:22:09.240 have parties that are offering a lot to all people, 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:12.960 particularly working people, who feel they've been left out, excluded 0:22:13.200 --> 0:22:18.400 from the direction that modern economies have gone. If what's 0:22:18.480 --> 0:22:23.960 being promised by your description is not possible or not 0:22:24.040 --> 0:22:28.240 possible without a lot of other difficult sacrifices, does that 0:22:28.320 --> 0:22:31.879 mean you think these these leaders are going to eventually 0:22:32.760 --> 0:22:35.080 come to grips, have to sort of face reality and 0:22:35.440 --> 0:22:37.440 become a cropper. Where do you see this going? Because 0:22:37.440 --> 0:22:40.920 they had doing very well with the brand of populism 0:22:41.600 --> 0:22:42.560 that we've been hearing. 0:22:42.960 --> 0:22:45.680 This is a brilliant question. I think it all depends 0:22:45.880 --> 0:22:50.399 on how many levers they have access to. So compare 0:22:50.480 --> 0:22:54.480 and contrast Georgia Mloney with Victor Roban. Because Allban is 0:22:54.480 --> 0:22:57.400 not in the Europe, he has more leavers to pull, 0:22:58.200 --> 0:23:02.320 so he troubled the minimum wage. He did was also 0:23:02.400 --> 0:23:05.240 lilily did. In other words, he looked after the working class. 0:23:05.560 --> 0:23:07.639 But it was a fasting bargain in the sense that 0:23:07.840 --> 0:23:11.640 I will look after you. You keep your mouth shut authoritarianism, 0:23:12.080 --> 0:23:14.240 You make me great again, so that I make Hungary 0:23:14.280 --> 0:23:18.480 great again. We turn against the foreigners, the Jews, the Muslims, 0:23:18.480 --> 0:23:21.240 at them the other It doesn't matter, so he had 0:23:21.359 --> 0:23:23.760 more degrees with him to do that. Georgie Milan doesn't 0:23:24.000 --> 0:23:26.600 because she's in the Euros. She has an unsustainable public debt, 0:23:27.119 --> 0:23:29.639 she has a banking system which is ricketty, So she 0:23:29.880 --> 0:23:33.320 simply follows Maria Dragi's policies, no difference to married Drage 0:23:34.000 --> 0:23:40.320 with weaponized misanthropy when it comes to migrants, foreigners, lesbian's, gays, 0:23:41.560 --> 0:23:45.159 you know, Walke and all that. But her days are 0:23:45.240 --> 0:23:48.920 numbered as a populist, as a right wing neo fascist populist, 0:23:48.920 --> 0:23:51.320 because she doesn't have the livers. She cannot look after 0:23:51.359 --> 0:23:53.320 the people the way that she's been promising them. If 0:23:53.320 --> 0:23:58.399 anything she's doing, you know, taking away protections that have 0:23:58.520 --> 0:24:01.119 been there from the previous governments. 0:24:01.320 --> 0:24:05.800 Well days might be numbered as representing a far right 0:24:06.240 --> 0:24:10.960 populist position, but as as a different kind of right 0:24:11.000 --> 0:24:14.960 wing but sort of normalized leaders could have. 0:24:15.200 --> 0:24:18.840