1 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. 2 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 2: Welcome to another Voter Nomics where politics and markets collide. 3 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 2: This year, voters around the world have the ability to 4 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 2: turn markets, countries and economies like never before, so we've 5 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 2: created this series to help you make sense of it all. 6 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 2: I'm Stephanie Flanders. 7 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 3: I made Frim Wildridge, and I'm Alegristratgy and on this 8 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,200 Speaker 3: episode we thought we would take a closer look at 9 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 3: the rise of right wing populism in Europe and we 10 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 3: have obviously had our own variety of that on show 11 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 3: at the start of this week with the release of 12 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 3: the Reform Party's contract not manifesto with the UK, but 13 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 3: Nigel Faraj has spoken about wanting to be prime Minister 14 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 3: after the next election. 15 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 2: George of Maloney is already Prime Minister of Italy and 16 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 2: she was on show this weekend hosting her counterparts at 17 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,479 Speaker 2: the g seventh summit in Pulia, and it was pretty 18 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 2: evident that she was the only leader with a spring 19 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 2: in her step and a favorable poll rating, so we 20 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:14,040 Speaker 2: wanted to hear about the secrets of her success and 21 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 2: the lessons for mainstream and maybe also less mainstream conservative 22 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 2: parties in the UK from one of her fans, Francesco Jubilee, 23 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 2: the president of the leading Italian conservative foundation, Fondatzioni Tartarella. 24 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,960 Speaker 2: He's also the author of the History of European conservative thought. 25 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 2: And then we're going to hear a completely different perspective 26 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:39,039 Speaker 2: from Janis Fara Facis, who of course you will know 27 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 2: as the former Finance Minister of Greece, motorbike owner and 28 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 2: author of several international best selling books, including recently Techno 29 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 2: Feudalism What Killed Capitalism. So, Adrian Alegre, it does feel 30 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 2: like a week to be thinking about the rise of 31 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 2: the right in Europe. We can see also in this 32 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 2: election that Macrants called in France, obviously a big focus 33 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 2: on Marine Le Penn's Class Envelementale party formerly the National Front. 34 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 2: I want to understand it, but I also want to 35 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 2: think about lessons, as I said, for everybody in the UK. 36 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 4: Yeah. One of the. 37 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 5: Striking things about the writers that these are nationalist movements 38 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 5: and the things that they hate most of all are 39 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 5: the sort of the global devils, elites, and yet in 40 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 5: some ways they are in themselves international. They learn from 41 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 5: each other, they imitate each other, And I was just 42 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 5: thinking of Farage who has launched his contract this morning 43 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 5: contract with you, and that's directly taken from New Gingrich. 44 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 5: You know, we don't have that in British politics. We 45 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 5: have manifestos. You know, Peel launched the whole thing with 46 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 5: the Tom Tamworth manifesto. Now we have somebody using the 47 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:57,639 Speaker 5: language of a contractarian society like the United States. And 48 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 5: you know, his own political party is really a political party. 49 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 5: It's a private company which treats him as a star, 50 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 5: not as a party leader, but as a star with 51 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 5: lots and lots of followers, which is exactly the politics 52 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,239 Speaker 5: that you see with Trump, but also with a lot 53 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 5: of European populist leaders. So it's a strange mixture of 54 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 5: nationalism and internationalism that we're seeing. 55 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: But Adrian he's leading a revolt, you know, he's making 56 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 1: a play of that. Isn't He's not a manifesto because 57 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:28,079 Speaker 1: that would be too vanilla, wouldn't that? 58 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 5: Yeah, I suppose so. But they're all in some sense 59 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 5: leading revolts. But in a lot of Europe now they're 60 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 5: moving from being a party of revolt to being a 61 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 5: party of government. And you see that with the French 62 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 5: in particular. 63 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 2: And This is what I think is interesting because although 64 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 2: they are all considered themselves to be in the same 65 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 2: family to some extent, although actually recently none of them 66 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 2: have got on very well with the alternative. For Deutschlan 67 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 2: Yes Party, he's considered to be beyond the pale, even 68 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 2: in far right circles. But I think Georgia Maloney's leadership 69 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 2: her time in government has been very interesting in the 70 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 2: way that she's been willing to compromise, willing to have 71 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 2: very mainstream views and policies on Ukraine on quite a 72 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 2: lot of economic things, and I thought it was very 73 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 2: striking these statements that nobody really cares about except the 74 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 2: people drafting them. But they have this communic case from 75 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 2: the G seven, and the only disagreement of all the 76 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,840 Speaker 2: things they'd agreed on this very important package for Ukraine 77 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 2: and other things, was around the restatement of support for 78 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 2: reproductive rights and safe and legal abortion from last year's communicate, 79 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 2: And I thought it was interesting that the one thing 80 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 2: she was actually sort of playing ball and to all 81 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 2: intentsive purposes being a mainstream leader when it came to 82 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:44,479 Speaker 2: many of these important European issues, But on that core 83 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 2: cultural ground she still had to mark out a more 84 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 2: traditional and more in some ways it was more to 85 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 2: her base. 86 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 5: Absolutely well. We tend to talk about the far rights 87 00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 5: and the right, but there are very important in terms divisions. 88 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 5: There's a division between the pro pro Putin people and 89 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 5: the anti Puotin people, and there's a division over sort 90 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 5: of responsible economic policy as well, and I think probably 91 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 5: some fundamental cultural divisions. If you look at the far 92 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 5: right in the Netherlands, for example, it's very pro gay 93 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 5: rights because it's basic critique. 94 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:24,039 Speaker 1: But in some ways this is a topsy turvy conversation 95 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 1: because actually if you look at Maloney and her international allies, 96 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,840 Speaker 1: you would say Ishi Sunac, you know, is her intellectual bedfellow, because. 97 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 5: They do seem to get on quite well. 98 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: And her and her Albania plan, which looks like some 99 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:39,359 Speaker 1: European politicians are falling behind, which is, you know, the 100 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: idea of having the immigrants processed off shore is partly 101 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 1: inspired by Rwanda. So there's a kind of topsy turviness 102 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: because you know, her mate, Rishi Sunac, he was doing 103 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: so badly in the opinion polls, potentially is leaving government. 104 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:56,479 Speaker 1: But actually some of the ideas he's espoused in government 105 00:05:57,680 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: are those in the ascendant. 106 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 2: That shows again, I mean it's immigration as this absolutely 107 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 2: core driving force for some of this. But there has 108 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 2: been a question about whether Kiss Darmer will have anyone 109 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 2: to talk to at these summits. He will be the 110 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 2: exception if we see all of these sort of mainstream 111 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 2: centrists and right leaders go in the next few years. 112 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 5: That's the other topsy turbinus that Britain is completely out 113 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 5: of sync with Europe and may well be out of 114 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 5: sync with the United States as well. We may be 115 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 5: the one surviving area for liberal Democrats to look at. 116 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: What Kiss Darmer's foreign affairs spokesperson David Lammy is saying, 117 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: you know, regarding Trump, you know and others you know, 118 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: they are they are cognizant that they are going to 119 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: have to work with everybody. 120 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 5: Yes, Lammi is somewhat changed his tune on Trump. 121 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 2: I think well, I suspect. I think I have a 122 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:50,480 Speaker 2: feeling partly from looking at our outlines for future weeks. 123 00:06:50,520 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 2: I think we'll be getting on incoming incoming days. So 124 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 2: we should move to our conversation with Francisco Jubile, the 125 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 2: president of the Italian Conservative Foundation Fondazioni Tartarella. Francesca, thank 126 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 2: you so much for joining us. We are fascinated looking 127 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 2: at Georgia Moloni at the recent g seventh summit and 128 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 2: obviously in previous months, really comfortable in her position as 129 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 2: Prime Minister of Italy and successful both domestically, and it 130 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 2: seems at these international summits. So I guess the obvious 131 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 2: question is what's the secret of her success? 132 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 4: I think that Georgia Meloni is becoming here by here 133 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 4: an important leader not only for Italy, not only for 134 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 4: our country, and not only for the Italian conservative right, 135 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:02,239 Speaker 4: but also for the European Lensks, especially after the result 136 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 4: of the European elections, because we saw that the result 137 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 4: of the President of. 138 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 6: France, Emanuel Macron was not a good result. 139 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 4: In fact, the result of Simble More National and Marie 140 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 4: lepen was quite good, and the same is for all 141 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 4: of Schortz, the leader of Germany. And in the case 142 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 4: of Italy, Georgia Meloney had a really important result, not 143 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 4: only as the leader of Fertality Italian, the main Italian 144 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 4: center right party, but also for all the Italian government. 145 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:41,439 Speaker 4: And after that we are entering in a new phase 146 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 4: for the European Union right now there are some important 147 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 4: discussion for the president of the European Commission and the 148 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 4: Georgia Meronic can play an important role as Prime Minister 149 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 4: of Italy, but also as the president of the. 150 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 6: E CR and the leader of the main Itally party. 151 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 2: I guess one thing we should sort of understand is 152 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 2: whether we're even describing her in the right way. You know, 153 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 2: we talk about far right, and when she came to power, 154 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 2: we were very focused on her origins. But I wonder 155 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:19,079 Speaker 2: whether she represents something different that's not a traditional kind 156 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 2: of conservatism or certainly traditional far right. 157 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, that is quite an important point. Usually when someone 158 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:33,319 Speaker 4: especially abroad, but not only abroad, sometimes also in our country, 159 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 4: want to describe or sometimes attack Georgia Miloney or in 160 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 4: general some politicians that are part of the Italian right, 161 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 4: they describe them as a neo fascist or some people 162 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 4: that are linked with some fascist idea, and I think 163 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 4: this is not correct and this is not the correct 164 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 4: way to try to understand what is happening in our country. 165 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 4: The truth is that the right that is represented by 166 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 4: Georgia Meloni is a conservative right. When I use the 167 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 4: word conservative is quite important to make an extinction between 168 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 4: the Latin conservatism and the Italian conservatism and the American 169 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 4: and English conservatism, because there are some important difference, for example, 170 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:26,199 Speaker 4: on the economic issues. Our conservatism is more focused on 171 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:30,319 Speaker 4: welfare state, for example, and the British and the American 172 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 4: conservatism is more focused, for example, on some classical liberals ideas. 173 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 4: So there are some difference, of course, but in general, 174 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 4: the correct way to try to understand the why George 175 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 4: Meloni is becoming so important and so voted in our 176 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 4: country is because she's trying also to talk with the 177 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 4: lower class. 178 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 6: That in the past voted for the left. But right now, 179 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 6: if we saw also the result in the main city, 180 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 6: for example, in the city center of Roma, or the 181 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 6: people vote for the left. If we we go to. 182 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:08,839 Speaker 4: For example, some difficult areas of the of Roma, we 183 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 4: see that in this part of the city the people 184 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 4: decide to vote. 185 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 6: For for Formeloni, and this is quite interesting. 186 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 4: So I think that it's important to try to analyze 187 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 4: in a deeper way what is the success of JN. 188 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 6: Maloney. 189 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 1: I don't know how much of following British politics, but 190 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 1: who would you put Georgia Maloney closer to Brittie Sunac, 191 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:35,599 Speaker 1: who's obviously a friend of hers, or Nigel Farah, she 192 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: leads the Reform Party. 193 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 4: I think definitely that she's closer to the Conservative Party, 194 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 4: the Tories, and to Sunak then to Farajef. There are 195 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 4: many points in common between Miloni and the Sunaco or 196 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:55,320 Speaker 4: in general Miloni and the Conservative Party. But how I 197 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 4: say to you before, there are also some difference because 198 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 4: of course, to be conservative in Italy is different than 199 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 4: being a conservative in the UK, because our conservatism is 200 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 4: quite link for example, with the Catholic traditions. So when 201 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 4: we talk about the ethic themes, for example, in our 202 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 4: conservatism is quite close with the vision of the Catholic Church, 203 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 4: and this is a big difference with the Tories. But 204 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 4: in the same time, when we talk about Parage, I 205 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:27,959 Speaker 4: think in Italy we use a word there is not 206 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:32,959 Speaker 4: a translation in English. The word is Soverignismo, is meaning 207 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 4: probably national populism or something like that. And when we 208 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 4: talk about Farage we can talk more than a conservative leader. 209 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 4: We can talk about a national populist leader. So I 210 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 4: think that Menoni is definitely closer to the Conservative Party. 211 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 5: You talked about her ability to reach beyond the sort 212 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 5: of metropolitan elites who live in the middle of Romee 213 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 5: two ordinary people. How can she do that? What are 214 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 5: the things that bind the conservative leadership to the working 215 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:06,319 Speaker 5: class voter. 216 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 4: In the bigger city or in the city center of 217 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 4: the bigger city, and the people vote for the left 218 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 4: or the center or left. When we go to the 219 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 4: neighborhood that are more close to some problems, for example 220 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 4: with the security, with the migration, the people decided to 221 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 4: vote for some a conservative party, and the same is 222 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 4: for example in some smaller city in our country, people 223 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:41,319 Speaker 4: decided to prefer and to vote for Georgia Maloney and 224 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:45,679 Speaker 4: to vote for the center right a coalition because they 225 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 4: feel that the answers that Georgia Maloney give for example 226 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 4: with the migration problem, for example, on economic issues, for example, 227 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 4: on the European Union issues. 228 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 6: There is a big debate in our country about. 229 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 4: The green police made by the European Union, especially for 230 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 4: the decision to stop in the engine motors in two 231 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 4: thousand and thirty five, and because of that the people 232 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:16,079 Speaker 4: decide to vote for gentlemen only because also the lower 233 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 4: class think that the answers that the Conservatives and the 234 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 4: right gave to their problem. 235 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 6: Right now is closer to them than. 236 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 5: The left, So liberalism is becoming an elite project. It's 237 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 5: captured by the rich. 238 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 6: I make you an example. I live in Roma. 239 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 4: Roma is probably the bigger capital in the European Union 240 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 4: or in European general, with the worst public transportation because 241 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 4: unfortunately the underground in Rome is not working as well. 242 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 4: And every time that they are trying to do some 243 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 4: new projects, they discover some ancient Roman ruins, so it's 244 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 4: quite difficult to build a bigger underground. And in Roma 245 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 4: there is a left. This measure, and the idea of 246 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 4: the measure was to create a bigger zone in which 247 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 4: the car couldn't hunterer and this of course creates some 248 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 4: problem not to the rich people which lived in the 249 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 4: center of the city and they can move walking or 250 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 4: by taxi or by scooter, but this creates some big 251 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 4: problem for the poor people which live in some area 252 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 4: not near the city center, and they must take their 253 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 4: car to go to work, and of course they are 254 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 4: angry against the measure because of that. 255 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 2: It is interesting that there's a similar kind of issue 256 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 2: in the UK around twenty miles per hour limits, which 257 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 2: is a popular campaigning force for many in our election Francisco. 258 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 1: Where does this end? 259 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 2: Because is that the question? So where does this end? 260 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: In that Georgie Maloney looks like her deficit has gone 261 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: up to seven point two percent. 262 00:15:57,680 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 2: You'll correct me if I'm wrong. 263 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: So you you've very lucidly outlined how pro welfare spending 264 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: she is, and that's clearly important to her coalition of voters. 265 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 1: Can she afford to keep on being ultra popular? 266 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 6: You mean about economy or you mean in general economy? 267 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, under the procedures, you know, the fiscal rules for 268 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 2: the European Union, they could well have to do. She 269 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 2: should could have to do some very tough things which 270 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 2: in the past have overturned Italian governments on a very 271 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 2: regular basis. 272 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 4: This is quite an important point. I mean, our economy 273 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 4: is a good economy. We have the third economy of 274 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 4: European Union. We have a private incomes that is quite good. 275 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 4: Most of the Italians they own their house. We have 276 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 4: quite a strong bank system. So our economy is a 277 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 4: good economy. But our private economy is economy. Our problem 278 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 4: is the public economy. 279 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 6: And when we. 280 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 4: Talk about the public economy, we talk about the state 281 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 4: which have a really hiked the public debt, and the 282 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 4: problem of our public debt is that the people, the 283 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 4: Italians and also the politician think about our public debuta 284 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 4: as something that is of no one. In reality, the 285 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 4: public debt is a debt of everyone. The bigger problem 286 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 4: of our country compared to the high debty, is the 287 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:23,680 Speaker 4: lower the possibility of growth of our economy. If we 288 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 4: we do in a comparasion between a high public debt 289 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 4: and the low growth of our economy, this can create 290 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 4: some problem. But I have to say this is not 291 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 4: a problem of Meloni. This is the problem of everyone, which. 292 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 2: We leave with respect. Though it's going to be her problem. 293 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 2: I mean, will that mark the end of her honeymoon 294 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 2: with the voters when she actually has to make the 295 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 2: same tough decisions about this to manage this big stock 296 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 2: of debt that every government in Italy has had to 297 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:53,639 Speaker 2: deal with for the last twenty or thirty years, and 298 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 2: has actually managed to, you know, just about prevent from 299 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,400 Speaker 2: spiraling out of control. Has stepped back from the BIS 300 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 2: quite a few times, each time by making very tough 301 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,400 Speaker 2: decisions that she has sofa been quite reluctant to make. 302 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 4: Yes, I think that luckily the most the toughest decisions 303 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 4: were made ten years ago, especially in twenty eleven after 304 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 4: Monty government. It was a technical government and he made 305 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 4: many tough decisions. So right now the public debty is 306 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 4: really height but it's more or less under control. Of course, 307 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 4: the COVID period didn't help us and didn't help everyone. 308 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:40,879 Speaker 4: So I think that Meloney she knows and she understands 309 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 4: that she doesn't have the opportunity of doing many economic 310 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 4: measures that are really in fervor in helping the in 311 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 4: the Italians, for example, cut the taxation. 312 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 6: But if she she. 313 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 4: Won't, for example, introduced new taxation, this can be something 314 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 4: good for example, and I think that she will manage 315 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 4: in Hinita and the economy is of course quite an 316 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 4: important issue, but there are other issues that are important 317 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 4: for the Italian electorate. For example, the migrant crisis is 318 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 4: the topic that is quite important, especially in the south, 319 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 4: in the south of Italy foreign politics, and I think 320 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 4: that Menoni is managed quite well on this topic. And 321 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 4: of course she also has to manage in the European 322 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 4: Union contest, where also the economic situation of Germany, that 323 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 4: is the main economy of European Union, is becoming world 324 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 4: compared to three years ago. 325 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,479 Speaker 2: Francisco to Bila. I'll be very interested to see her 326 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 2: next few budgets, how she manages to square the circle. 327 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 2: But in the meantime, and then we'll have you back. 328 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,120 Speaker 2: But in the meantime, thank you very much for joining us. 329 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 6: Thank you, it was a pleasure. 330 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:05,199 Speaker 2: And now, as they say, for something completely different. Janasparafukis 331 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 2: Greece's Finance minister for six months in twenty fifteen, negotiating 332 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:12,440 Speaker 2: on behalf of the Greek government during the Greek debt crisis, 333 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,679 Speaker 2: who has also been secretary general of the Democracy in 334 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 2: Europe Movement twenty twenty five, a left wing pan European 335 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 2: political party he co founded in twenty sixteen. Janisparafuck is 336 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 2: very good to have you physically in the studio. Thanks 337 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 2: for joining us on Vota Nomics. 338 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:29,719 Speaker 7: It's a great pleasure. 339 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:31,880 Speaker 2: We've got lots of things to talk to you about, 340 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 2: but we are focusing on this program on the rise 341 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 2: of the populist right in Europe. I guess you know. 342 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 2: One obvious question is why he is right wing populism 343 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 2: so much more successful than left wing populism at the moment. 344 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 7: Because it's authentic. I don't believe you can be left 345 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 7: wing and the populist, because my definition of populism, whoor 346 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 7: anderstand populism is to be all things to all people, 347 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 7: make ausers of promises and then jump on a soapbox 348 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 7: and being jingoistic and call upon people to trust you 349 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 7: to make things great again and dot dot I won't 350 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 7: go on, but that if you do that, then you're 351 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 7: not the left winger in my view, You're not a humanist, 352 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 7: you're not facing the truth, and you use up the 353 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:26,440 Speaker 7: people's vote against the people. So this is a kind 354 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 7: of contest I have with other leftists would disagree with me. 355 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 7: The two words left and popularism, you put them together, 356 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 7: you end up with an incongruity. And so you know, 357 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 7: when the left tries populism, it becomes ridiculous. When the 358 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 7: right become populist and become fascist, and they are very 359 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:46,399 Speaker 7: successful as we have seen during the Middle War period 360 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 7: the left, and that of course is the end of 361 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 7: the left when the left, the. 362 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 5: Left are too honest to be populists. 363 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 7: The left should be honest and therefore should avoid populism 364 00:21:58,880 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 7: in its pursuit of. 365 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 2: Popular With the populist approach, even by your definition, we 366 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 2: have parties that are offering a lot to all people, 367 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 2: particularly working people, who feel they've been left out, excluded 368 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:18,400 Speaker 2: from the direction that modern economies have gone. If what's 369 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 2: being promised by your description is not possible or not 370 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 2: possible without a lot of other difficult sacrifices, does that 371 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 2: mean you think these these leaders are going to eventually 372 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 2: come to grips, have to sort of face reality and 373 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 2: become a cropper. Where do you see this going? Because 374 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,920 Speaker 2: they had doing very well with the brand of populism 375 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 2: that we've been hearing. 376 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 7: This is a brilliant question. I think it all depends 377 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:50,399 Speaker 7: on how many levers they have access to. So compare 378 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 7: and contrast Georgia Mloney with Victor Roban. Because Allban is 379 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:57,400 Speaker 7: not in the Europe, he has more leavers to pull, 380 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 7: so he troubled the minimum wage. He did was also 381 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 7: lilily did. In other words, he looked after the working class. 382 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:07,639 Speaker 7: But it was a fasting bargain in the sense that 383 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,640 Speaker 7: I will look after you. You keep your mouth shut authoritarianism, 384 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 7: You make me great again, so that I make Hungary 385 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 7: great again. We turn against the foreigners, the Jews, the Muslims, 386 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 7: at them the other It doesn't matter, so he had 387 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 7: more degrees with him to do that. Georgie Milan doesn't 388 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 7: because she's in the Euros. She has an unsustainable public debt, 389 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 7: she has a banking system which is ricketty, So she 390 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 7: simply follows Maria Dragi's policies, no difference to married Drage 391 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 7: with weaponized misanthropy when it comes to migrants, foreigners, lesbian's, gays, 392 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:45,159 Speaker 7: you know, Walke and all that. But her days are 393 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 7: numbered as a populist, as a right wing neo fascist populist, 394 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 7: because she doesn't have the livers. She cannot look after 395 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 7: the people the way that she's been promising them. If 396 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 7: anything she's doing, you know, taking away protections that have 397 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 7: been there from the previous governments. 398 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 2: Well days might be numbered as representing a far right 399 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 2: populist position, but as as a different kind of right 400 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 2: wing but sort of normalized leaders could have. 401 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,840 Speaker 7: Quite yes, if he becomes a Bolusconi, who is somebody 402 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 7: on the center left who again is misogynist, racist and 403 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 7: so on. So a little bit of Trump, but with 404 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 7: Mario drag economics new liberal economics. The mi great fear 405 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 7: is that we are now seeing in Europe because of 406 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:39,119 Speaker 7: a fragmentation of the European Union, the single market, the 407 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 7: politics this European Union parliament is is going to be 408 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 7: completely incapable of effectively exercising any parliamentary process. My fear 409 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:54,160 Speaker 7: is that you're going to have a right wing, neo 410 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 7: fascist populist right that manages to ditch austerity, to ditch 411 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 7: the new liberal agenda, completely, erect new borders, erect new tariffs, 412 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 7: and you know, channel a lot of money into armaments, 413 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:16,360 Speaker 7: which may have an economy impact, but the most important 414 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 7: impact will be the coalescence with nationalism, and that could 415 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 7: be successful, and if that happens, Europe is simply not 416 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,399 Speaker 7: going to be a place that will want to live in. 417 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 2: Is a key potential part of this the French election, 418 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,640 Speaker 2: because if you look at Marine Le penn currently they 419 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 2: do have a very old collection of policies, but very 420 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 2: leftist economic policies. 421 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,119 Speaker 7: The don't call fascism leftism. 422 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 2: But if you look at her economic policies. 423 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 7: That's also Leni was a socialist and then he became 424 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 7: a fascist. And what was the deal I will protect 425 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 7: you introduced the first pension system in continental Europe, universal one. 426 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,959 Speaker 7: He increased wages and then he clamped down on trade unions, 427 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:04,959 Speaker 7: he climbed down a democratic processes and effectively started the 428 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 7: process that led to the Second World War together with 429 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 7: his friend Hitler. I call this fascist. This is the definition. 430 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 2: What do you think about the significance of the French election? 431 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,399 Speaker 2: I mean, where does that? Where does where does that 432 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 2: fit into the kind of that darker vision that you 433 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 2: just painted. 434 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 7: Well, let's let me try to lighten up the mood. 435 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 7: I hope, I hope that Macron's strategy, even though I'm 436 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:30,360 Speaker 7: completely opposed to everything he's been doing in the last 437 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,159 Speaker 7: few years, but I hope his strategy of bringing him 438 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:38,439 Speaker 7: bringing them into essentially government through cohabitation. He's trying to 439 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 7: do what Shirak did with Spend, what Mitterrand did with Iraq, 440 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 7: effectingly to defunct them by making them less popular through 441 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:52,439 Speaker 7: allowing them to occupy ministries. How that works, but I 442 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 7: feel it might not. I'm very worried that they may 443 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 7: actually succeed because, let's face it, the finance, the public 444 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 7: fire answers for France, just like Italy is and the 445 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 7: public finances of Germany for that matter, are not consistent 446 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 7: with the fiscal rules. So something we'll have to give 447 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:15,400 Speaker 7: Now if Bardella together with le Pen with the collapse of. 448 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,439 Speaker 2: His young the young leader, he might be the prime minister. 449 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 7: Who's my nightmare personally, because under the two Lapins, at 450 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,360 Speaker 7: least they were not that palatable to the young. Now 451 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,120 Speaker 7: this is a guy who is quite photogenic, he has 452 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:30,920 Speaker 7: style quality, he's young, he comes from a working class area, 453 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 7: he speaks well. He doesn't look like a fascist, even 454 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 7: though he is. That's why he's my nightmare, because he's 455 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 7: affect You. 456 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:42,120 Speaker 5: Mentioned the young. One of the striking things about right 457 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,919 Speaker 5: wing thought or right wing movements on the continent rather 458 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 5: than in Britain, is how popular they are with younger 459 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 5: people and how they're able to attract quite as you say, 460 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 5: photogenic and dynamic young politicians. Why is that because with 461 00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 5: the left failed. 462 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 7: This is the fault of the left. Let's face it. 463 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 7: The worst thing that can happen to democracy is to 464 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 7: have fascist presenting the anti systemic trend. Twenty fifteen, we 465 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 7: get elected on an anti austerity program. I personally had 466 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 7: proposals for the IMF and the European Center blank, which 467 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 7: I thought were very sensible in terms of dead swaps 468 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,680 Speaker 7: and nothing very radical, together with an anti asterity program, 469 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 7: and we said that we will be elected and we 470 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,880 Speaker 7: will not budge. We are not getting taken other credit card, 471 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 7: other conditions that are completely financially unsustainable, and you don't 472 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,640 Speaker 7: have to be left to agree with that. And we buckled. 473 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 7: And then our own government after I left, I have 474 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 7: to say that, but who cares about me? Our own 475 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 7: government practiced the worst kind of a stity, the worst 476 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 7: kind of over taxing small business, everyone in a as 477 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 7: if in a part of a plan to make the 478 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 7: place unviable. And then then is the domino effect, because 479 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 7: the left wing in Spain po Demos collapse as a 480 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 7: result of not wanting to be you know, cities are 481 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:13,959 Speaker 7: number two the linking. In Germany, the French left collapses, 482 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 7: and what is left the populist right, which I call 483 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 7: neo fascists, being the only ones that are out there 484 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 7: suggesting something different. I mean, whether you're here in Britain 485 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 7: today with Suna and Starma, or whether you are looking 486 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 7: at the policies of the ESPEE, all of Shults and Merge, 487 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 7: the differences between them are tiny. And it's not as 488 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 7: if Europe is flourishing. Europe has had a fifteen year 489 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 7: dearth of investment. That's why we're following behind the Chinese. 490 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 7: We have not invested in modern technologies, any kind of 491 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 7: modern technology for fifteen to twenty years in Europe. So 492 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 7: this discontent. Who is going to pick up up the 493 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 7: votes from that discontent? The only anti systemic forces we 494 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 7: of the left have gone to ground. We try to 495 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 7: bend over backwards to accommodate the new liberal policies. I 496 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 7: remember telling Shoubler once, I said, look, I know you 497 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 7: don't like seeing me in front of you, because. 498 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 2: If the German finance minister. 499 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 7: Yeah, because you know I'm a lefty, but you know 500 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 7: what we're europeanis and we're Democrats, and if you squash 501 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 7: the living daylights out of our people, you know, to 502 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 7: get rid of us, you're going to end up with 503 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 7: fascists on the other side of the table. And I 504 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 7: think that was right. 505 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 2: But kase Armer is of the left. 506 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 1: He's very close. 507 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 7: This is what I want, which I find preposterous. 508 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 5: Right, Ok, he's not of the left. 509 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 7: That's all a bad thing. I mean, I'm not there 510 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 7: to tell it that. You know, believe that everybody should 511 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 7: be from the left, But I just don't agree that 512 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 7: he's from the left. 513 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 1: Okay, all right, that's clear. Let's look at immigration where 514 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,479 Speaker 1: he is trying to forge another path where he's saying 515 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 1: obviously he's not going to renew freedom of movement and 516 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 1: so on, but he is saying that they will negotiate 517 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 1: returns agreements with the continent. What is We've heard from 518 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 1: another guest earlier in the program, and you've threaded through 519 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 1: everything you've said, this kind of immigration seems to be 520 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 1: the stimulus for some of the rise of these parties. 521 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 1: What would be the other way to deal with the 522 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 1: worries about immigration that so many electorates around Europe are 523 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: clearly feeling. 524 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 7: How about ditching a racism light because this is what 525 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 7: Kirstarmy is doing. Personally, I don't know here. Personally, I 526 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 7: suspect he and I would agree on immigration being a 527 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 7: blessing not a curse. Europe is getting old. For a 528 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 7: thousand years, we've been populating the rest of the earth. 529 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 7: We've been migrating everywhere, sometimes with guns and you know, 530 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 7: white settlers. So suddenly we have a problem with immigration. 531 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 7: What has happened is that demographics have changed. We're getting 532 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 7: all people are coming towards US, and that should have 533 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 7: been fine if we had a migration policy. Kirstama, however, 534 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 7: being a relatively spineless politician, is not going to stand 535 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 7: up to the parajes and to the sonic sent to 536 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 7: the braver Mans and say, you know what, we need 537 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 7: immigration and we're going to create a policy which is 538 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 7: simultaneously financial in the economically viable and humane and consistent 539 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 7: with international law. He's not saying that, so he's trying 540 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 7: to what happened, just like a steadicy light. 541 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 2: Play that back though. I mean, one of the things 542 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 2: you just argued was if you don't give a key 543 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 2: chunk of the electorate something at the table, if you 544 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 2: force austerity down their throats, then you're going to get 545 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 2: something worse down the road. I mean, you could make 546 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 2: exactly the same argument about keeping immigration off the agenda 547 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 2: for many years as sort of a coalition of the 548 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 2: right and left mainstream across Europe, not just the UK. 549 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 2: If you don't let people have a view or even 550 00:32:56,080 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 2: discuss the scale the direction of immigration, you end up 551 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:03,480 Speaker 2: with something worse. And if you're a Democrat, you have 552 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 2: to accept that there are people who feel that people 553 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 2: don't feel the same way they see the economic benefit. 554 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 2: Maybe they may also see it as an economic cost 555 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 2: to them if it affects if it pushes down their wages. 556 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,360 Speaker 2: But they also see a cultural consequence which many people 557 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 2: are uncomfortable with. 558 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 5: There must be a differential economic impact of immigration as well, 559 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 5: doesn't it. It's poorer people and benefit in many ways 560 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 5: richer people. 561 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 7: Of course if you practice astadity, lots of people in 562 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 7: But let me ask you a question, because because I 563 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:39,800 Speaker 7: think you're perfectly right, I don't believe in keeping important 564 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 7: issues like this off the table. I believing in a 565 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 7: vigorous debate. 566 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 2: But to engage in that conversation you're actually saying is racism? 567 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 7: Like no, no, not at all. 568 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 2: Well that is what I think. That's what the lidbody 569 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:51,880 Speaker 2: would say. They're part of the conversation. 570 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 7: No, I don't think it's engaging with the conversation when 571 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 7: they effectively say that we will manage to find a 572 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 7: way of limiting immigration which is more efficient than the 573 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 7: Tories if you really want to engage. And here's I'm 574 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 7: coming to your question too. Look, I remember I was 575 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 7: in Doncaster during the Brexit campaign. I was campaigning against Brexit. 576 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 7: As somebody who is not really a narmor of the 577 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:18,440 Speaker 7: U confusing people. And I remember there was you know, 578 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 7: there was this wonderful older woman who came to me 579 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,799 Speaker 7: and said, Yannis, she wanted to engage in it's custo 580 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 7: about immigration. As you say, I am not a racist 581 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,760 Speaker 7: im internationalism. I left Winger. But you know, my building 582 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 7: is now full of Romanian boys who live for in 583 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 7: one room and they can afford because there are four 584 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 7: boys to bid runts up and we cannot afford to 585 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 7: compete with them. And then I asked her question. I said, 586 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,799 Speaker 7: so tell me the story of this building. It used 587 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,319 Speaker 7: to be a council house. It was sold off to 588 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,240 Speaker 7: the private sector. So the problem is not the Romanian boys, 589 00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:00,759 Speaker 7: is that these councilor houses were sold. Now they're part 590 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 7: of a rent maximizing a reenteer frenzy, and council houses 591 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:08,640 Speaker 7: have not been built to replace the old stock of 592 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 7: council house. So if you really want as a labor party, 593 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,319 Speaker 7: as a progressive, to engage with people, you have to 594 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 7: take very seriously what this woman said about the fact 595 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:17,920 Speaker 7: that now she has a building full of Romanian boys, 596 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:20,319 Speaker 7: which actually she actually liked, so she was not even 597 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 7: a racist to call her a racist is just preposterous. 598 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 7: It's a totally unacceptable It's like Hillary Clinton calling Trump's 599 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 7: supporters deplorables. No, you have to engage and you have 600 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:31,840 Speaker 7: to explain that, you know what, that was a mistake. 601 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 7: Now we need to build, you know, council housing. The 602 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,319 Speaker 7: solution is not to get rid of the Romanians. This 603 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 7: is going to make Doncaster even poorer and center. That 604 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,399 Speaker 7: is the kind of debate I would like to see 605 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 7: the Labor Party engage in. 606 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 5: The Labor Party would claim that it is in favor 607 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,280 Speaker 5: of activist government. It's going to have a national energy 608 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 5: company that it's going to have a national investment scheme 609 00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 5: that is going to be much more and. 610 00:35:58,120 --> 00:35:59,560 Speaker 2: Have a big expansion in a hay building. 611 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 7: Indeed, money come from nothing there. 612 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:06,240 Speaker 5: Do you think there's nothing there from the Labor Party 613 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:08,280 Speaker 5: that's intentions? 614 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:10,760 Speaker 7: But you know how many comments? So I read stuff. 615 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:14,720 Speaker 7: I have this bad habit and I read very carefully 616 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,799 Speaker 7: both the manifesto of the twenty twenty four manifesto and 617 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 7: what instead of fiscal studies said, And what I see 618 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:23,839 Speaker 7: is a steadity baked in. I don't see the money 619 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 7: coming in anywhere. They're going to have to affect cuts, 620 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,920 Speaker 7: and they will affect cuts that are brutal in areas 621 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 7: that will be very helpful to the most to the 622 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:34,320 Speaker 7: weakest of people. 623 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 2: What should the left be learning from the last few 624 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:40,799 Speaker 2: years in Europe and particularly when you look at, say, 625 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 2: for example, the European elections. 626 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 7: My nightmare is that because we have messed up with 627 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:50,680 Speaker 7: the left, have messed up that now the coalescence between 628 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 7: the most rabbit and Australian and trumpest aspects or segments 629 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,360 Speaker 7: of the old Tory Party in this country, but also 630 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:06,760 Speaker 7: in France, in German and so we will go into bed 631 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 7: with any of Ussists and with the Left are irrelevant 632 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,120 Speaker 7: because we've been tried, We've been tested, and we failed 633 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:22,480 Speaker 7: our tests. And we are ourselves recoiling into identity politics, 634 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 7: into fighting one another as to how do you define 635 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 7: a woman? Which is a very interesting philosophical topic. But 636 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,720 Speaker 7: the fascists love it when we recoil in that manner 637 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 7: into identity politics. That is my nightmare. So the one 638 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:38,640 Speaker 7: thing I'm trying to do as a Left is to 639 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:41,400 Speaker 7: dem to divide a democracy Urope. Moving across Europe. You know, 640 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 7: we have a small, small movement, but we are held 641 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,400 Speaker 7: a little bit in influential amongst the left. Is to 642 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,279 Speaker 7: ask the big questions again, you know, how do you 643 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:56,720 Speaker 7: combine combine investment with social policies, how do you break 644 00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:02,160 Speaker 7: down that alliance between austerelity and and racism and hatred 645 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,120 Speaker 7: of the other, of the foreigner. What do we do 646 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:09,520 Speaker 7: about Europe turning into a war union? With the idiotic 647 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:15,240 Speaker 7: concept that since the Green Deal failed, we are gained 648 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 7: now to develop through spending on arms and developing a 649 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,200 Speaker 7: military industrial complex in Europe, which we never will. But 650 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:26,200 Speaker 7: you know, we need to tackle these things. We need 651 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:30,279 Speaker 7: to take a break, be self critical, and as you 652 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 7: said before. 653 00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 2: I think you're going to get a break at least 654 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 2: in many parts of Europe. 655 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:35,880 Speaker 7: We are already having a break. But we must not 656 00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:42,759 Speaker 7: go into self referential you know, identity politics becoming irrelevant 657 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 7: with glee. 658 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 2: Thank you very much. 659 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:46,359 Speaker 7: Well, thank you. 660 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:56,320 Speaker 2: So that was That's quite a lot. 661 00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:01,239 Speaker 5: Of meat, definitely outspoken and some very interesting analysis. Not 662 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 5: my politics, but some of the analysis I think holds 663 00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 5: true whatever your politics are. 664 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,120 Speaker 2: Well, the idea that the left is going to be 665 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:12,120 Speaker 2: almost sort of bringing its hands on the sidelines for 666 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:16,680 Speaker 2: quite a long time and somewhat irrelevant certainly in Europe. 667 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:19,839 Speaker 2: Question mark about the UK because it depends who you 668 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:20,880 Speaker 2: consider to be left. 669 00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:23,279 Speaker 1: But it's complicated if you think about the last election, 670 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:27,000 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen election where Jeremy Corbyn's manifesto did very well. 671 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:29,920 Speaker 1: So actually lots of this is twenty nineteen. 672 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:32,560 Speaker 2: Well yeah, no, everything Well, there was that point about 673 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:36,880 Speaker 2: the individual policies in it were individually popular, but labeling 674 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 2: it labor and saying you were going to do it 675 00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:42,799 Speaker 2: all together was not a credible propositions along with Corbyn. 676 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 1: And that's one of the complexities about and you say that, 677 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 1: you heard it a little bit with Francesco around Actually 678 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 1: in Italy, her politics is grounded in what appeals to 679 00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:54,720 Speaker 1: the lower class and so on. I hate the phrase 680 00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:56,480 Speaker 1: lower class, but he used it, so we have to 681 00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 1: use it the less well off. That plus twenty nineteen 682 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:03,359 Speaker 1: Corbyn's manifesto doing quite well, and then also a little 683 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,040 Speaker 1: bit further back than that, but actually some of the 684 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:07,560 Speaker 1: Theresa May manifesto was not a million miles away from 685 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:09,720 Speaker 1: it either in terms of you know, have to reach 686 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,200 Speaker 1: out and appeal to the people who feel they've been 687 00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:13,480 Speaker 1: left behind by globalization. 688 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:14,840 Speaker 2: Well and That's why I think it's going to be 689 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,879 Speaker 2: this key question about how do these sort of these 690 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 2: outside forces far right, however you describe them, when they're 691 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:27,160 Speaker 2: in government, how do they govern? Do they, as he claims, 692 00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,160 Speaker 2: end up or at least as he fears, end up 693 00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:36,200 Speaker 2: going down a profoundly kind of authoritarian even anti European 694 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:42,359 Speaker 2: Union sort of divisive road, or as looked a bit 695 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:46,760 Speaker 2: what Georgia Maloney has been doing, do they more become 696 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,480 Speaker 2: a different face of the right, saying things that we 697 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:54,799 Speaker 2: don't necessarily agree with on cultural issues, but fundamentally not 698 00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:59,960 Speaker 2: challenging the fundamental the institutions of Europe. 699 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:04,400 Speaker 5: The fundamental problem is that centrist liberalism has become a 700 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:09,719 Speaker 5: philosophy of the elites, of the ruling classes of people 701 00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,160 Speaker 5: who are doing quite well out of globalization, has quite 702 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:17,560 Speaker 5: well out of the status quo. And if that's the case, 703 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:21,160 Speaker 5: you find it very very difficult to win elections, if 704 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,920 Speaker 5: not impossible. So liberalism, centrist liberalism, which I think everybody 705 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:28,440 Speaker 5: in this room would subscribe to, needs to find a 706 00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:32,719 Speaker 5: way of reconnecting with poorer people. The best way, of course, 707 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,440 Speaker 5: is to improve the economy, raised productivity, show that you 708 00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,120 Speaker 5: can actually get richer. But I think it also needs 709 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:40,879 Speaker 5: to be done on certain cultural issues, on the issue 710 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:45,080 Speaker 5: of nationalism versus globalism and things like that. And personally 711 00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:49,480 Speaker 5: I believe in terms of taking back control of immigration. 712 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:51,200 Speaker 1: I can't believe I'm trying to find reasons to make 713 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,960 Speaker 1: Joannis Farafut focus feel less bad. But I think the 714 00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:57,320 Speaker 1: other thing I think we have learned from recent politics 715 00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:01,239 Speaker 1: is that things might look, you know, for a particular 716 00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 1: bit of the political spectrum or the one, and they 717 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:09,000 Speaker 1: flip very quickly. And it's the volatility and the fact 718 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,960 Speaker 1: that trends are coming. You know, everything is shortened and 719 00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 1: trends come and go so quickly. 720 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:15,880 Speaker 5: It wasn't that long ago to die. And perhaps you 721 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,640 Speaker 5: were writing articles about why is it that the Conservatives 722 00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,840 Speaker 5: are the most powerful and successful party in human history? 723 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:24,560 Speaker 2: But that the thing, the longer you're in power, the 724 00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:28,160 Speaker 2: more likely you're going to be destroyed. Reached a very 725 00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:32,000 Speaker 2: sticky conclusion. All right, Well, I feel like we had 726 00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:35,799 Speaker 2: something of a seminar on European political thoughts this week. 727 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:39,760 Speaker 2: Who knows what we'll do next week, but Allegra and Adrian, 728 00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:45,360 Speaker 2: thank you very much, thanks for listening to this week's 729 00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:48,560 Speaker 2: Potonomics with Bloomberg. This episode was hosted by Me Stephanie 730 00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:52,160 Speaker 2: Flanders with Adrian Woldridge and Allegra Stratton. Produced by Summer 731 00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:55,800 Speaker 2: Sadi with booking support from Chris martloom Additional editing and 732 00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:59,920 Speaker 2: sound designed by Moses and dam Brendan Francis Noonan is 733 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,280 Speaker 2: our executive producer. Stage Bowman is head of Bloomberg Podcast, 734 00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,880 Speaker 2: with special thanks to Francesco Jubilet, Jannies, Baro Fakis and 735 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:13,600 Speaker 2: Qiarra Albinici. Do subscribe, rate, and review this show, especially 736 00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:15,880 Speaker 2: if you like it wherever you listen to podcasts, and 737 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:16,800 Speaker 2: tell all your friends