WEBVTT - "A Pine Tree and a Red Hill"

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<v Speaker 1>Camp hell an Awake is a production of I Heart Radio.

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<v Speaker 1>The views and opinions expressing this podcast are solely those

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<v Speaker 1>of the author and participants and do not necessarily represent

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<v Speaker 1>those of I Heeart Media or its employees. Due to

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<v Speaker 1>discussion of traumatic, sexual, and violent content, listeners, discussion is advised.

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<v Speaker 1>The whole episode was almost surreal. I moved to Atlanta

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<v Speaker 1>in X seven, became a graduate student. Needed money, so

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<v Speaker 1>I looked under psychologists in the phone book in the

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<v Speaker 1>yellow pages, and there was something called any Wakey Foundation,

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<v Speaker 1>and I said, what the dickens is that? This is

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<v Speaker 1>Roger Brenn. He was an early employee at ana Waki.

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<v Speaker 1>Today he's a clinical psychologist and currently practices in Huntsville, Alabama.

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<v Speaker 1>First person I talked to was Lewis Petter, and on

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<v Speaker 1>the phone he asked my credentials. He said, you're exactly

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<v Speaker 1>what I'm looking for, and so I drove out to

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<v Speaker 1>his offices. Lewis Heater came out and introduced himself to me,

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<v Speaker 1>and we sat in his office and he hired me

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<v Speaker 1>on the spot. I was probably there fifteen minutes. He said,

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<v Speaker 1>do you want to work with us? It sounded like

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<v Speaker 1>a fun exciting place I thought I could grow. He

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<v Speaker 1>basically made me the clinical director. There was no other

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<v Speaker 1>mental health person on the campus per se. Now he

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<v Speaker 1>had a license to practice psychology, but had been grandfather,

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<v Speaker 1>and he had doctor in front of his name. I

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<v Speaker 1>didn't know for several months what that meant, but he

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<v Speaker 1>had an honorary doctorate degree, and from that point on

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<v Speaker 1>I thought he was a real psychologist. When medical licensing

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<v Speaker 1>laws came into play in the United States, if you

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<v Speaker 1>already had a master's degree and had been practicing psychology

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<v Speaker 1>for a number of years, you were able to obtain

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<v Speaker 1>a license as a one time clause. Roger explained that

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<v Speaker 1>this would not fly today, but at the time you

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<v Speaker 1>were grandfathered in. Such was the case with Anna Waki's founder,

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<v Speaker 1>Lewis Petter. There was no training Number one. It was

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<v Speaker 1>all on the job. The boys were required to build

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<v Speaker 1>their own lodging. UH. They did a lot of their

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<v Speaker 1>own cooking. UH. They had to make sure that they

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<v Speaker 1>stayed in groups and worked in groups and teams. I've

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<v Speaker 1>been there about six months, and of course it took

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<v Speaker 1>me a while to get acclimated to the camp, and

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<v Speaker 1>at the same time I started thinking there were some

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<v Speaker 1>unusual things. Well, we started suspecting that there was some

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<v Speaker 1>kind of sexual misconduct. Couldn't prove it, kids wouldn't admit it,

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<v Speaker 1>so we sort of hung in there to see what

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<v Speaker 1>we could find out. Over the past several weeks we

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<v Speaker 1>have received the number of very serious allegations concerning both

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<v Speaker 1>the facility out there in a number of individuals involved

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<v Speaker 1>with him. It was just a form of their therapy.

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<v Speaker 1>They were told to do it, and at the time

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<v Speaker 1>he was fourteen and a half fifteen years old, they

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<v Speaker 1>didn't know any better. I asked him, why are you

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<v Speaker 1>letting this hypen? Why are you covering up for Louis Patter.

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<v Speaker 1>He had no answer to that question, having paid its little,

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<v Speaker 1>such destricable place, and to do absolutely the contrary of

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<v Speaker 1>what they should have said. I'm disturbable the fact of

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<v Speaker 1>something I can still got on it and I wake you.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Josh Stain and this is Camp Hell Anawaki. In

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<v Speaker 1>speaking with former patients and employees of Anawaki, I heard

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<v Speaker 1>a range of experiences, some heartbreaking, some inspiring, and some

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<v Speaker 1>that were straight horrific. To understand what led to these experiences,

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<v Speaker 1>we need to look at how this institution was initially

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<v Speaker 1>set up. What were its purposes? And why were so

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<v Speaker 1>many parents sending their children there? I tried to find

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<v Speaker 1>anyone who could give me an idea of what the

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<v Speaker 1>early days of Annawaki were like. It was out in

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<v Speaker 1>the woods. Was a dirt road going into it. Outside

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<v Speaker 1>Douglasville was still a dirt road. The Aniwaki sign was

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<v Speaker 1>there in a path where the Abulds are going to

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<v Speaker 1>be built. Down below that was the small little school

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<v Speaker 1>room and one lodge, and then as you go down

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<v Speaker 1>into the campsite there was a tool room and stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>My name is Richard Edgerley. I got recruited there in nineteen.

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<v Speaker 1>My number was e seventy nine. That means Richard was

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<v Speaker 1>only the seventy nine person to attend an awake. He

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<v Speaker 1>says he was admitted when he was around the age

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<v Speaker 1>of ten or eleven. The lake was being built. It

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't like hite finished because I worked on that for

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<v Speaker 1>I would say a month before they filled it up.

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<v Speaker 1>The cabins had just received power. Fact the place where

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<v Speaker 1>they stuck the poles and it was still flat, so

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<v Speaker 1>it hadn't it time to grow up. An Awaki Lakes

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<v Speaker 1>still sits in Douglasville and can easily be seen on

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<v Speaker 1>any map. This was one of Richard's original work projects.

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<v Speaker 1>While attending in the beginning was that's what everybody was

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<v Speaker 1>working on. The lake clearance, stumps, burning the wood, the grass,

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<v Speaker 1>cutting with sling blades, lots of trail building because everything

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<v Speaker 1>was new. We line all our trails of the rocks.

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<v Speaker 1>We used to have competitions to see who could move

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<v Speaker 1>the biggest rock. In fact, the one my friend and

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<v Speaker 1>I did is still sitting there exactly where it's set.

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<v Speaker 1>Fifty years ago. We stay in the cabins. We built

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<v Speaker 1>two extensions. They weren't finished totally. A couple of the

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<v Speaker 1>cabins had the foundation for an add on to the

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<v Speaker 1>building and it wasn't done during my time. We knocked

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<v Speaker 1>down the wall and built that extension. During that time

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<v Speaker 1>we installed heating panels, and twenty years agoing now and

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<v Speaker 1>out there, they were still hanging and they were still working.

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<v Speaker 1>The day to day for patients at an Awaki was

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<v Speaker 1>set by a self planned schedule. It was to be

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<v Speaker 1>followed by the letter. On Sundays, we have to write

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<v Speaker 1>a schedule of everything we did for that week from

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<v Speaker 1>morning to night five three would bake up five forty five,

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<v Speaker 1>we get dressed. Six o'clock we would assemble as a group.

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<v Speaker 1>Six ten we would move to the lodge. We would

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<v Speaker 1>have to walk around the lake. Seven o'clock was breakfast,

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<v Speaker 1>always thirty minutes. Eight o'clock we go to the tool room,

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<v Speaker 1>check out the tools. Depending on what we had to

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<v Speaker 1>do that day, axes, rakes, whatever, we'd actually go to

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<v Speaker 1>whatever project it was, cutting grass, lining trails, building things

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<v Speaker 1>in the camp, helping other groups build their stuff, cleaning

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<v Speaker 1>out sewage ponds, painting, staining. Eleven o'clock we would stop

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<v Speaker 1>clean up. Twelve o'clock, lunch, one o'clock we'd go back

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<v Speaker 1>to work. At three thirty four o'clock we would stop

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<v Speaker 1>back to the lodge and think again what happened with dinner.

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<v Speaker 1>Three minutes after that, we went back to our campsites

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<v Speaker 1>and had a group meeting. Could range anywhere sixties seven o'clock,

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<v Speaker 1>and that was in the back of the campsite, split

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<v Speaker 1>logs around the fire pit. The group would sit there

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<v Speaker 1>and talk and work out our problems and say what

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<v Speaker 1>happened during the day. And then after that we'd have

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<v Speaker 1>free time activities. Letter writing showers ever we need to do,

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<v Speaker 1>and then twenty around there lights out. It wasn't that bad.

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<v Speaker 1>It kept you busy, and you had your friends and

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<v Speaker 1>bec you didn't have any time to thank nearly at all.

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<v Speaker 1>This rigid daily structure provided the patients of an awaki

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<v Speaker 1>with a predictable routine, a widely accepted strategy to reduce

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<v Speaker 1>problem behaviors in children with emotional behavioral issues. So what

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't mean to be diagnosed with an emotional behavioral issue?

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<v Speaker 1>The answer is more complicated than you may think. I

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<v Speaker 1>went to speak with an expert who could shed some

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<v Speaker 1>light on the subject. My name is Steve Trustcott. I

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<v Speaker 1>am a professor at Georgia State University in the school

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<v Speaker 1>Psychology program. And I'm Katherine Perkins, and I'm also a

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<v Speaker 1>professor in school psychology at Georgia State. I asked Stephen

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<v Speaker 1>Catherine to explain what it means to have a child

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<v Speaker 1>with emotional behavioral issues. One of the things that is

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<v Speaker 1>probably going to make your story complicated is that there

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<v Speaker 1>are multiple systems for determining what or a child has

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<v Speaker 1>an emotional or behavior disorder, and within those systems, there

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<v Speaker 1>are different definitions. There's a legal system. There's an educational system,

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<v Speaker 1>and then there's a system of psychiatric kind of disorders,

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<v Speaker 1>and they overlap some but they're not the same, so

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<v Speaker 1>i'll give you up. For instance, the classification using the

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<v Speaker 1>Diagnostic and Statistical Manual identifies about ten of us population

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<v Speaker 1>of children notes having an emotional or behavioral disorder, whereas

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<v Speaker 1>the school based definition only about a little less than

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<v Speaker 1>one percent of kids or kids who are classified as

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<v Speaker 1>having an emotional or behavior disorder. So there's a disparity

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<v Speaker 1>between those and part of the disparity is that the

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<v Speaker 1>criteria are different. So the criteria for a special education

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<v Speaker 1>for the label of eb D and Georgia. That's another

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<v Speaker 1>thing is the labels change across the states, but in

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<v Speaker 1>Georgia it's eb D. The label requires there to be

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<v Speaker 1>an educational impact. Basically, the term emotional behavioral issue is

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<v Speaker 1>not a universal standard. What qualifies as emotionally disturbed changes

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<v Speaker 1>depending on the context in which it is determined, whether

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<v Speaker 1>it be by a school, hospital, or otherwise. This is

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<v Speaker 1>something that would give in a waky enough wiggle room

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<v Speaker 1>to claim anyone could be accepted based on the facility standards.

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<v Speaker 1>Emotional behavioral disturbance is the label that was given by

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<v Speaker 1>the federal government. That's in this law Individuals for Disabilities

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<v Speaker 1>Education Act that specifies what students qualify for special education

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<v Speaker 1>in public schools. That's what that label is. And then,

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<v Speaker 1>like my colleague pointed out, there are other labeling systems

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<v Speaker 1>that are more medically oriented, or you know, the judicial

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<v Speaker 1>system has their own label, which is guilty or not guilty,

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<v Speaker 1>and so it's a little confusing. But the federal law

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<v Speaker 1>for special education clearly outlines the criteria that you're looking

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<v Speaker 1>at to determine if a child meets that criteria for

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<v Speaker 1>emotional behavior of disturbance. There isn't a definitive way to

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<v Speaker 1>say this kid does and this kid doesn't have that disability.

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<v Speaker 1>Catherine and Steve pointed out that just because a child

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<v Speaker 1>is labeled as emotionally disturbed, that doesn't make that criteria

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<v Speaker 1>the same in Georgia as it may be in Alabama

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<v Speaker 1>or Florida. This term is a blanket that could be

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<v Speaker 1>used in a number of situations. Some of these would

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<v Speaker 1>not only include school, but also the judiciary system. The

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<v Speaker 1>definition in Georgia is based on five primary concerns. The

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<v Speaker 1>first one is an inability to build or maintain satisfactory

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<v Speaker 1>interpersonal relationships with peers and or teachers. An inability to

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<v Speaker 1>learn which cannot be adequately explained by intellectual, sensory, or

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<v Speaker 1>health factors. The third one is a consistent or chronic

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<v Speaker 1>inappropriate type of behavior or feelings under normal situations. The

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<v Speaker 1>fourth is a displayed pervasive mood of unhappiness or depression,

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<v Speaker 1>and the last one is a displayed tendency to develop

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<v Speaker 1>physical symptoms, pains, or unreasonable fears associated with personal or

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<v Speaker 1>school problems. So those are kind of the five hallmarks

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<v Speaker 1>of students who are identified as having eb D. So

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<v Speaker 1>here's how I think of it. There's typical childhood development,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the way most kids grow and learn, and

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<v Speaker 1>then sometimes the kind of behaviors that we're talking about

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<v Speaker 1>when we're talking about eb D. They may be perfectly

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<v Speaker 1>typical and normal, but then if they persist into other

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<v Speaker 1>developmental stages, they might look very different. So, for example,

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<v Speaker 1>many people talk about the terrible twos, have you know,

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<v Speaker 1>tantrum behavior and very young children who are trying to

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<v Speaker 1>find their way in the world and are trying to

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<v Speaker 1>assert their power and their choice and their decision making.

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<v Speaker 1>And then if they don't get their way, they let

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<v Speaker 1>you know they're not happy about that. But that same

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<v Speaker 1>tantrum behavior that would be typical with a two year

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<v Speaker 1>old starts looking very different in a school aged child.

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<v Speaker 1>And so it's when these behaviors persist with frequency, intensity,

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<v Speaker 1>and duration beyond that that is seen in typically developing children,

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<v Speaker 1>that's when we start saying, Oh, that's problematic. And how

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<v Speaker 1>do parents react when faced with this type of situation?

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<v Speaker 1>And how did so many come to the conclusion that

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<v Speaker 1>Anna Waki was the answer. I spoke with Richard Dressler.

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<v Speaker 1>He part time serves as a motivational speaker helping family

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<v Speaker 1>deal with crisis. His son was also sent to an

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<v Speaker 1>awake as a team. I asked him what it was

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<v Speaker 1>like dealing with a child with emotional behavior issues and

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<v Speaker 1>how he came to the conclusion to send him to

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<v Speaker 1>an awake. Oh. Desperation, helplessness, anxiety, frustration. When people ask

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<v Speaker 1>me that question about being a parent, and I tell him, look,

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<v Speaker 1>we're not giving any guide books to read how to

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<v Speaker 1>be a parent. Okay, it's a daily experience. It's a

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<v Speaker 1>constant struggle between your head and your heart and knowing

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<v Speaker 1>what you should do, what you don't want to do.

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<v Speaker 1>There was no place, because I look back, that I

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<v Speaker 1>felt I could go to that could really help me.

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<v Speaker 1>There are more programs today that are more advanced. There's

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<v Speaker 1>more advancements about drug abuse. There's more what I would

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<v Speaker 1>call openness in society. So the only thing you could

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<v Speaker 1>do back then is trust your psychiatrist, who also was

0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:07.280
<v Speaker 1>duped and knew nothing about what was going on at

0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:11.240
<v Speaker 1>any of these places like an Awake. Richard says in Awake,

0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:14.079
<v Speaker 1>he was first presented to him by his son's psychiatrist.

0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:16.840
<v Speaker 1>This would often be how children would get referred to

0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:21.200
<v Speaker 1>an Awaki through a doctor or teacher. If I remember right.

0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:24.840
<v Speaker 1>He described it as a psychiatric institute that can help

0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:28.040
<v Speaker 1>him adjust or change his personality and behavior on a

0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:32.520
<v Speaker 1>long term treatment program. Okay, and I accepted that. Richard

0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:35.320
<v Speaker 1>and his wife visited the Anawaki campus for a tour

0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:38.520
<v Speaker 1>before deciding whether to send their son there. This is

0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:42.760
<v Speaker 1>how the Anawaki staff explain their treatment center. They talked

0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:47.640
<v Speaker 1>about the fact that it was a psychiatric facility. They

0:14:47.720 --> 0:14:51.200
<v Speaker 1>forewarned us about the possibility of some of the incidents

0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:54.480
<v Speaker 1>that occurred, and that is we have to break down

0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:57.600
<v Speaker 1>their personality we're gonna read all the letters that come in,

0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:02.640
<v Speaker 1>all the phone calls. There was no privacy, and we

0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:05.120
<v Speaker 1>hope you expect that will probably complain about some of

0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:09.360
<v Speaker 1>these issues. All these things are normal. At that point

0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:13.880
<v Speaker 1>I accepted it, knowing what I briefly knew about these

0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:18.640
<v Speaker 1>kind of programs. Looking back now, I think it was

0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:24.720
<v Speaker 1>one great anticipated thing they did so that you wouldn't

0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:28.160
<v Speaker 1>question what they were really doing. So when your son

0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:30.920
<v Speaker 1>came home and complained they're abusing me and I want

0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:33.480
<v Speaker 1>to leave and this is happening to me, you would

0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:36.400
<v Speaker 1>just go back, well, look he's got these psychiatric problems

0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:39.640
<v Speaker 1>and needs treatment, and I'm assuming that what they told

0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:42.720
<v Speaker 1>me is true, which we did. In retrospect, I have

0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:46.320
<v Speaker 1>to say that, based on my experience, they probably like

0:15:46.520 --> 0:16:07.160
<v Speaker 1>to us. For parents dealing with an adolescent with emotional issues,

0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:09.440
<v Speaker 1>they can often feel like they have nowhere to turn.

0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:12.920
<v Speaker 1>Annawaki was the solution for many of these parents in

0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:16.800
<v Speaker 1>Georgia in the nineteen sixties through the nineteen eighties. What

0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:20.000
<v Speaker 1>was Antawaki doing to treat these children put into their control?

0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:25.760
<v Speaker 1>Psychologist Roger Brinn explains the origins of wilderness therapy. It's

0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:29.000
<v Speaker 1>been a rule of thumb that if you get kids

0:16:29.040 --> 0:16:33.920
<v Speaker 1>into the woods and impel them into some type of adventure, uh,

0:16:34.080 --> 0:16:38.040
<v Speaker 1>they do better. And that if they have delinquent proclivities,

0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:41.040
<v Speaker 1>if they're going to break the law or to become oppositional,

0:16:41.040 --> 0:16:44.400
<v Speaker 1>if they do much better, and that it's a great treatment.

0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:46.960
<v Speaker 1>And since then we found that that probably is a

0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:50.400
<v Speaker 1>case if it's structured correctly and done right. There was

0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:54.640
<v Speaker 1>a book called Wilderness Road, and as I recall, there

0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:58.520
<v Speaker 1>was a businessman's club in Dallas, Texas that sponsored the

0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:04.200
<v Speaker 1>original residential treatment center for kids, particularly boys. In Our

0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:08.320
<v Speaker 1>program at Antawaki was supposed to be designed after that program,

0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:11.680
<v Speaker 1>and it was similar. The boys were required to build

0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:14.480
<v Speaker 1>their own lodging, they did a lot of their own cooking.

0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:16.960
<v Speaker 1>They had to make sure that they stayed in groups

0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:20.960
<v Speaker 1>and worked in groups and teams, and putting the kids

0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:25.520
<v Speaker 1>in the woods made sense. Wilderness Road, published in nine

0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:29.520
<v Speaker 1>five by Campbell Loch Miller, has served as the manual

0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:32.760
<v Speaker 1>for much of what we know today as wilderness therapy.

0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:37.280
<v Speaker 1>Camp Woodland Springs was started in by Lock Miller as

0:17:37.320 --> 0:17:40.040
<v Speaker 1>an expansion of a summer camp program. He began with

0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:43.240
<v Speaker 1>the Salesman's Club of Dallas, a group of business and

0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:47.480
<v Speaker 1>professional men from the area. The parallels between Woodland Springs

0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:51.200
<v Speaker 1>and Antawaki are numerous, from a campground setting where the

0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:53.640
<v Speaker 1>children are in charge of their own lodging and meals,

0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:57.640
<v Speaker 1>to isolating patients into groups, and even alluding to Native

0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:01.520
<v Speaker 1>American terminology. Lock Miller was known around his camp as

0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:05.840
<v Speaker 1>Chief Lock. The following is an excerpt from Wilderness Road.

0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:11.280
<v Speaker 1>We find the camp environment good because it accords more

0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:15.199
<v Speaker 1>fully with the child's nature and provides ample opportunity to

0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:19.600
<v Speaker 1>satisfy the desire most boys have for adventure and exploration

0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:23.480
<v Speaker 1>in the outdoors. Small group living in this environment encourages

0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:28.600
<v Speaker 1>original experimentation and provides the widest possible variety of direct

0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:32.440
<v Speaker 1>experience with the natural surroundings. Such a life calls into

0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:36.280
<v Speaker 1>play numerous individual skills, provides an outlet for almost any

0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:39.959
<v Speaker 1>ability a boy may have, and constantly encourages new and

0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:44.480
<v Speaker 1>ever broadening experiences of the individual and the group. Life

0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:48.159
<v Speaker 1>in this setting provides for the maximum variety, freshness, and

0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:54.520
<v Speaker 1>intensity in the daily experience of each boy. Most of

0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:57.720
<v Speaker 1>Anawaki's therapy consisted of a daily group meeting at the

0:18:57.800 --> 0:19:00.359
<v Speaker 1>end of each day, a time where the always in

0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:02.720
<v Speaker 1>your work or school group would sit around the fire

0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:06.800
<v Speaker 1>and address any issues they encountered in their day. After dinner,

0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:09.919
<v Speaker 1>we had group therapy on logs and that was just

0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:13.880
<v Speaker 1>about every night. I worked with the staff. Everybody had

0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:18.320
<v Speaker 1>two staff leaders to group leaders in each group, so

0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:21.959
<v Speaker 1>you have about eight kids and two adults, maybe ten kids,

0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:24.520
<v Speaker 1>and they would do group therapy and work on what

0:19:24.640 --> 0:19:28.040
<v Speaker 1>went on that day in process to day. Mark Butler

0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:33.080
<v Speaker 1>attended in Awake from four to He remembers the group

0:19:33.119 --> 0:19:36.040
<v Speaker 1>therapy which was still taking place during his time there.

0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:40.480
<v Speaker 1>The guidance counselors would kind of push you along and

0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:44.320
<v Speaker 1>you know, I begin to things and it was also

0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:47.280
<v Speaker 1>time to go over the day. What happened? Were there

0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:51.080
<v Speaker 1>any incidents? Why did this happen? Because people got in

0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:55.920
<v Speaker 1>trouble all the time. These groups would serve an integral

0:19:55.960 --> 0:19:59.960
<v Speaker 1>part to the in Awaki program. Children were separated based

0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:02.919
<v Speaker 1>on different factors such as age and whether they were

0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:06.199
<v Speaker 1>in a work group or school group. Staying on brand,

0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:10.040
<v Speaker 1>These groups were all given Native American names, names such

0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:15.600
<v Speaker 1>as Tawanka, Kirkeeed, and Wahonka. Most of the groups of

0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:19.240
<v Speaker 1>Anuwaki were done by age limits. Like Wahonka was the

0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:21.640
<v Speaker 1>older groups, the one they went to school, alf campus

0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:26.680
<v Speaker 1>had the cars. Twanka was the youngest and arranged from

0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:30.160
<v Speaker 1>eight till like twelve or thirteen. Then you had other

0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:34.600
<v Speaker 1>groups that were ranging groups like maybe twelve, fifteen and

0:20:35.080 --> 0:20:38.920
<v Speaker 1>fifteen and sixteen or eighteen. Tuanka where I was at,

0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:42.720
<v Speaker 1>was literal translations to attempt or undertake a difficult task.

0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:45.399
<v Speaker 1>And like Antawaki is supposed to be the land of

0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:50.800
<v Speaker 1>the friendly people. Here's journalist Albert Edgin who reported on

0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:56.119
<v Speaker 1>in Awaki extensively for the Tallahassee Democrat. They were broken

0:20:56.200 --> 0:21:02.480
<v Speaker 1>up into groups, and the groups were are designed for

0:21:02.960 --> 0:21:09.200
<v Speaker 1>therapy and also for growth, so they had tasks they

0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:14.240
<v Speaker 1>had to perform in the groups monitored the behavior of

0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:18.000
<v Speaker 1>the kids in the group. The groups were independent. They

0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:20.040
<v Speaker 1>were not supposed to cross polony. They were not supposed

0:21:20.040 --> 0:21:23.520
<v Speaker 1>to talk to each other. Mark Butler recalls this group

0:21:23.640 --> 0:21:27.080
<v Speaker 1>structure and how it functioned during his time there. I

0:21:27.160 --> 0:21:30.399
<v Speaker 1>classify him into two groups, the word groups and the

0:21:30.440 --> 0:21:33.960
<v Speaker 1>school groups. The word groups are always working. The school

0:21:34.000 --> 0:21:37.360
<v Speaker 1>groups are always going to school. When I was there,

0:21:37.400 --> 0:21:41.920
<v Speaker 1>I believe there's about tended twelve working groups and there

0:21:42.000 --> 0:21:44.600
<v Speaker 1>was no socializing between the groups. Of course we did

0:21:44.680 --> 0:21:47.320
<v Speaker 1>a little bit in anyway. I guess they kept thinking

0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:50.160
<v Speaker 1>that if they kept the groups smaller and more contained,

0:21:50.600 --> 0:21:54.080
<v Speaker 1>and it's much easier to handle, I guess. But then

0:21:54.119 --> 0:21:57.520
<v Speaker 1>there was things like football where they would have to

0:21:57.560 --> 0:22:01.840
<v Speaker 1>be group mixing. You know, Okay, football players come from

0:22:01.880 --> 0:22:06.120
<v Speaker 1>different groups, so there was always some kind of talk

0:22:06.200 --> 0:22:12.680
<v Speaker 1>between the groups. The work group model would serve two functions.

0:22:12.680 --> 0:22:15.919
<v Speaker 1>At in Awaki to build what would become the largest

0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:19.760
<v Speaker 1>medical facility in the state, and second to help break

0:22:19.800 --> 0:22:22.800
<v Speaker 1>down the patients so they could be remolded into the

0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:26.399
<v Speaker 1>inn Awaky way of life. That was the idea at least,

0:22:27.280 --> 0:22:31.600
<v Speaker 1>here's Mark Sublett, another former in Awaky patient. So if

0:22:31.640 --> 0:22:33.639
<v Speaker 1>you had a building group, they might come in and

0:22:33.680 --> 0:22:36.399
<v Speaker 1>you might do all the masonry. Okay, so you're the

0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:39.359
<v Speaker 1>masonry group. So he cleared all the land, poured all

0:22:39.359 --> 0:22:43.240
<v Speaker 1>the concrete foundations, hauled all the block out there, laid

0:22:43.280 --> 0:22:45.960
<v Speaker 1>all the block next, all the mud, did all the plaster,

0:22:46.160 --> 0:22:48.560
<v Speaker 1>did it all and then another group might come behind

0:22:48.560 --> 0:22:51.200
<v Speaker 1>you and they might be a carpentry group. So that's

0:22:51.240 --> 0:22:55.080
<v Speaker 1>what they would do, And it seemed like sometimes the

0:22:55.119 --> 0:22:58.320
<v Speaker 1>groups would split off and would help the electrician and

0:22:58.440 --> 0:23:02.040
<v Speaker 1>be the electrical groups they've thing pulling wire doing all

0:23:02.080 --> 0:23:06.280
<v Speaker 1>this stuff. I think an Awakes look on it was

0:23:06.400 --> 0:23:09.720
<v Speaker 1>that they wanted to tell you, like, what we're gonna

0:23:09.760 --> 0:23:12.119
<v Speaker 1>do is make your life real shitty and you're gonna

0:23:12.160 --> 0:23:14.240
<v Speaker 1>hate it. So what would you want to do to

0:23:14.280 --> 0:23:17.040
<v Speaker 1>get out of your shitty, hated life? And they told

0:23:17.080 --> 0:23:19.960
<v Speaker 1>you that from the beginning, like, hey, from here on out, boy,

0:23:20.000 --> 0:23:21.800
<v Speaker 1>you're gonna have to work the rest of your life,

0:23:21.840 --> 0:23:24.040
<v Speaker 1>and you better get used to it. That's your life

0:23:24.040 --> 0:23:26.600
<v Speaker 1>from here on out. Unless you go to school and

0:23:26.640 --> 0:23:29.600
<v Speaker 1>get that education, then you might be able to do better.

0:23:29.880 --> 0:23:32.359
<v Speaker 1>So kind of right off, their feeding that into your mind.

0:23:34.640 --> 0:23:38.159
<v Speaker 1>This separation between work groups and school groups was the

0:23:38.200 --> 0:23:41.679
<v Speaker 1>beginning of an involved hierarchy at an Awaki. It was

0:23:41.760 --> 0:23:44.639
<v Speaker 1>only after one had proven themselves through a series of

0:23:44.680 --> 0:23:47.960
<v Speaker 1>tasks and personal development that they would receive a rite

0:23:48.000 --> 0:23:51.040
<v Speaker 1>of passage. All of the attendees were expected to achieve

0:23:51.840 --> 0:23:54.920
<v Speaker 1>to get your crest. I don't think I've ever cried

0:23:54.920 --> 0:23:57.000
<v Speaker 1>as much in my life as when he stood up

0:23:57.040 --> 0:24:00.480
<v Speaker 1>when he got his crest, which is a certain achievement,

0:24:01.040 --> 0:24:04.280
<v Speaker 1>and said, I'd like to thank my parents for letting

0:24:04.359 --> 0:24:07.520
<v Speaker 1>me enough to send me here. The crest would serve

0:24:07.600 --> 0:24:11.000
<v Speaker 1>as one of the key elements of Anawaki's mythos. An

0:24:11.000 --> 0:24:15.120
<v Speaker 1>Anawakee document called Legend of the Crest reads as follows,

0:24:18.960 --> 0:24:22.200
<v Speaker 1>The pine tree and red hill are the materials found

0:24:22.240 --> 0:24:25.440
<v Speaker 1>in nature, which man may use, according to his ability

0:24:25.520 --> 0:24:29.639
<v Speaker 1>and ambition, to improve the state of his existence in nature.

0:24:30.280 --> 0:24:33.840
<v Speaker 1>The scroll depicts the democratic concept of the value of

0:24:33.840 --> 0:24:37.520
<v Speaker 1>the individual and also the importance of one's relationship to

0:24:37.600 --> 0:24:42.760
<v Speaker 1>other individuals. The winding path to the rising sun signifies

0:24:42.880 --> 0:24:46.639
<v Speaker 1>the importance of striving toward a goal in life, using

0:24:46.640 --> 0:24:51.159
<v Speaker 1>the self discipline necessary to overcome obstacles which may present

0:24:51.240 --> 0:24:55.359
<v Speaker 1>themselves in reaching of that goal. The praying hands show

0:24:55.440 --> 0:24:58.879
<v Speaker 1>the need for a religious concept, the recognition of a

0:24:58.960 --> 0:25:01.879
<v Speaker 1>power in the universe which is higher than the individual.

0:25:02.800 --> 0:25:05.639
<v Speaker 1>The dovel with the olive branch was selected from the

0:25:05.680 --> 0:25:08.480
<v Speaker 1>story of Noah in the Bible to show that a

0:25:08.560 --> 0:25:15.359
<v Speaker 1>new life in a clean, new world is possible. The

0:25:15.440 --> 0:25:18.320
<v Speaker 1>crest was not only a symbol of personal improvement an

0:25:18.359 --> 0:25:21.680
<v Speaker 1>advancement in the program, but it was also required before

0:25:21.680 --> 0:25:24.080
<v Speaker 1>a child could advance from a work group to a

0:25:24.119 --> 0:25:27.800
<v Speaker 1>school group. Here's Stephen, another former in a wiki patient.

0:25:28.960 --> 0:25:31.840
<v Speaker 1>I was pretty much in a word group most of

0:25:31.840 --> 0:25:35.960
<v Speaker 1>the time. That's another one of those themes, getting your

0:25:36.000 --> 0:25:39.960
<v Speaker 1>crest or getting into a school group. It was a privilege,

0:25:40.040 --> 0:25:43.400
<v Speaker 1>you had to work for it, so on and so forth.

0:25:43.920 --> 0:25:48.240
<v Speaker 1>And I witnessed that some of these so called privileges

0:25:48.720 --> 0:25:52.840
<v Speaker 1>didn't turn out too well for for other people. When

0:25:52.880 --> 0:25:56.600
<v Speaker 1>I received my crest, they had a special Christmas dinner

0:25:57.800 --> 0:26:01.280
<v Speaker 1>because I believe it took me longer to get the

0:26:01.520 --> 0:26:06.840
<v Speaker 1>crest than anybody, and ant like the history, and you

0:26:06.880 --> 0:26:10.800
<v Speaker 1>know there again, it was because I saw the guys

0:26:10.880 --> 0:26:14.360
<v Speaker 1>that had worked towards that and it didn't turn out

0:26:14.400 --> 0:26:18.160
<v Speaker 1>too well for them. Once a patient had proven themselves

0:26:18.200 --> 0:26:20.840
<v Speaker 1>worthy of getting their crest, they would then move on

0:26:20.880 --> 0:26:23.520
<v Speaker 1>to one of the school groups. The time frame from

0:26:23.560 --> 0:26:26.520
<v Speaker 1>admittance until moving into a school group could often take

0:26:26.560 --> 0:26:30.159
<v Speaker 1>a year's During this time, no real schooling was a

0:26:30.200 --> 0:26:33.800
<v Speaker 1>part of the child schedule. In turn, grades would be

0:26:33.800 --> 0:26:36.639
<v Speaker 1>caught up to in a span of months, even weeks,

0:26:36.920 --> 0:26:39.840
<v Speaker 1>rather than years. In the beginning, there was not a school.

0:26:40.480 --> 0:26:42.480
<v Speaker 1>The little building in front of the lodge was a

0:26:42.520 --> 0:26:46.600
<v Speaker 1>one little classroom. It had the possibility of being a school.

0:26:47.200 --> 0:26:49.840
<v Speaker 1>At some point they did get a teacher, but I

0:26:49.920 --> 0:26:52.879
<v Speaker 1>never finished third, never went the fourth, ever went the fifth,

0:26:52.920 --> 0:26:55.400
<v Speaker 1>never went the sixth, ever went to seventh. And when

0:26:55.400 --> 0:26:58.000
<v Speaker 1>I got out of an Awoki, I should have before

0:26:58.040 --> 0:27:00.399
<v Speaker 1>my age, gone into the ninth, but it put me

0:27:00.400 --> 0:27:02.800
<v Speaker 1>back in eighth because it hadn't been in school for

0:27:02.840 --> 0:27:05.280
<v Speaker 1>so long. So when I went to high school started

0:27:05.280 --> 0:27:08.560
<v Speaker 1>out of eighth grade, You're willing to do whatever it

0:27:08.680 --> 0:27:11.320
<v Speaker 1>took to get out of that work group. I mean,

0:27:11.320 --> 0:27:14.360
<v Speaker 1>who wanted to haul block or sling blade four miles

0:27:14.359 --> 0:27:17.520
<v Speaker 1>of road or whatever chore they would have four to

0:27:17.600 --> 0:27:20.120
<v Speaker 1>you that day. Of course you're gonna want to get

0:27:20.119 --> 0:27:22.840
<v Speaker 1>out of that because you're a teenage kid and you

0:27:22.880 --> 0:27:24.639
<v Speaker 1>know so that you'd be like, oh, what do I

0:27:24.680 --> 0:27:26.760
<v Speaker 1>have to do to get into the school group? The

0:27:26.840 --> 0:27:30.040
<v Speaker 1>school groups did no physical labor. All they would do

0:27:30.080 --> 0:27:32.879
<v Speaker 1>is go to school. Now, they would tell you this

0:27:33.080 --> 0:27:38.080
<v Speaker 1>crazy story how you could do four years of education

0:27:38.160 --> 0:27:41.440
<v Speaker 1>in one year. At Annawaking. By the time I got

0:27:41.520 --> 0:27:45.480
<v Speaker 1>the school group, I was already three years behind. So

0:27:45.560 --> 0:27:47.359
<v Speaker 1>when I got out of there and tried to enroll

0:27:47.440 --> 0:27:52.080
<v Speaker 1>in public school and whatever my records were that came

0:27:52.119 --> 0:27:54.560
<v Speaker 1>back from that. I was supposed to be a senior,

0:27:54.640 --> 0:27:59.200
<v Speaker 1>but I'd be having taken ninth grade English, eighth grade, this, tenth, eleventh,

0:27:59.240 --> 0:28:02.160
<v Speaker 1>twelfth grade that. So it was just kind of screwed up.

0:28:02.960 --> 0:28:06.560
<v Speaker 1>But that's how they would treat their school as a privilege,

0:28:06.560 --> 0:28:10.520
<v Speaker 1>a higher group of an Awaki kid that's what you

0:28:10.680 --> 0:28:14.760
<v Speaker 1>wanted to achieve. The Anawaki program worked like a ladder

0:28:15.160 --> 0:28:18.639
<v Speaker 1>with a different rung for every advancement, giving more perks

0:28:18.680 --> 0:28:22.359
<v Speaker 1>and power the further up you climbed. This hierarchy would

0:28:22.400 --> 0:28:24.840
<v Speaker 1>go past the advancement of getting your crest and being

0:28:24.840 --> 0:28:28.080
<v Speaker 1>promoted to a school group. Students could work their way

0:28:28.119 --> 0:28:30.720
<v Speaker 1>up to becoming a group leader or even a paid

0:28:30.760 --> 0:28:34.600
<v Speaker 1>counselor do you have one group and everything works from

0:28:34.640 --> 0:28:37.000
<v Speaker 1>the head of leader of that group, and you also

0:28:37.040 --> 0:28:40.160
<v Speaker 1>have a hierarchy of the kids. The new kid has

0:28:40.200 --> 0:28:42.600
<v Speaker 1>to be taught by the next kid up what he's

0:28:42.640 --> 0:28:44.920
<v Speaker 1>just learned. The next kid up has to be teaching

0:28:44.960 --> 0:28:48.360
<v Speaker 1>that second kid down what he's just learned. Sort of

0:28:48.360 --> 0:28:53.440
<v Speaker 1>a cascading system of learning. And it's important to remember

0:28:53.480 --> 0:28:56.680
<v Speaker 1>that these were children. They may have been adolescents, but

0:28:56.760 --> 0:29:00.960
<v Speaker 1>they were children. The counselor might have been sixteen years

0:29:00.960 --> 0:29:06.120
<v Speaker 1>old responsible for a group of fifteen or twenty youngsters,

0:29:06.680 --> 0:29:09.880
<v Speaker 1>probably more likely as eighteen years old, but not that

0:29:09.960 --> 0:29:13.560
<v Speaker 1>much more mature, and certainly not experienced beyond the walls

0:29:13.600 --> 0:29:17.760
<v Speaker 1>of an awaki or bringing any real experience to the situation.

0:29:18.640 --> 0:29:21.400
<v Speaker 1>There are all sorts of stories that they would tell

0:29:21.480 --> 0:29:26.000
<v Speaker 1>you that I learned later, where activity would stop when

0:29:26.080 --> 0:29:31.080
<v Speaker 1>somebody acted out, and sometimes with supervision from the group leaders,

0:29:31.160 --> 0:29:34.280
<v Speaker 1>sometimes with leadership from the members of the group, they

0:29:34.280 --> 0:29:39.480
<v Speaker 1>would counsel the recalcitrant kid, whoever he may be. It

0:29:39.560 --> 0:29:44.000
<v Speaker 1>was all integrated system. It was innovative, but it was

0:29:44.320 --> 0:29:49.600
<v Speaker 1>also subject for severe abuse in the sense that if

0:29:49.600 --> 0:29:52.400
<v Speaker 1>you have a situation where the people that are being

0:29:52.520 --> 0:29:57.800
<v Speaker 1>counseled are empowered to enforce rules, then you have to

0:29:57.880 --> 0:30:00.760
<v Speaker 1>have stop gap measures, and I'm not sure they had

0:30:00.800 --> 0:30:05.280
<v Speaker 1>those stop gap manages. You have to supervise the children

0:30:05.360 --> 0:30:09.400
<v Speaker 1>that have been given these responsibilities. So one of the

0:30:09.480 --> 0:30:13.480
<v Speaker 1>things that deteriorated through the years was that the management,

0:30:13.520 --> 0:30:17.720
<v Speaker 1>and by management I mean Louis Petter, would promote children

0:30:18.200 --> 0:30:24.800
<v Speaker 1>to the status of counselor, and that appeared to be

0:30:25.520 --> 0:30:31.320
<v Speaker 1>in many cases without any substantial training. The fact is

0:30:31.320 --> 0:30:34.240
<v Speaker 1>is that a lot of these children who became counselors

0:30:34.240 --> 0:30:38.200
<v Speaker 1>were incapable of dealing with situations because they hadn't been

0:30:38.200 --> 0:30:42.680
<v Speaker 1>trained to and having a kid manage a situation that

0:30:42.840 --> 0:30:45.560
<v Speaker 1>can only come from the kid's gut. It can't come

0:30:45.560 --> 0:30:48.880
<v Speaker 1>from training or any kind of knowledge. It was an

0:30:48.920 --> 0:31:10.760
<v Speaker 1>ad hoc system. I'm here to talk about an Awake

0:31:11.520 --> 0:31:15.160
<v Speaker 1>and Louis Petter. This is Robert. He worked at in

0:31:15.240 --> 0:31:18.040
<v Speaker 1>Awaki as a group leader in the late nineteen sixties.

0:31:18.600 --> 0:31:23.120
<v Speaker 1>I'm Robert Augustino. I'm a law professor at John Marshall

0:31:23.240 --> 0:31:27.760
<v Speaker 1>Law School, and I've been there since where I came

0:31:27.800 --> 0:31:30.640
<v Speaker 1>in as i was dean in president for five years

0:31:30.680 --> 0:31:33.560
<v Speaker 1>and now I'm just a mere professor sitting in my

0:31:33.680 --> 0:31:38.480
<v Speaker 1>corner office, not being pastored by the administration. Robert originally

0:31:38.480 --> 0:31:41.240
<v Speaker 1>heard about Anawaki through social work with a branch of

0:31:41.320 --> 0:31:45.080
<v Speaker 1>local government called the Department of Family and Children's Services,

0:31:45.680 --> 0:31:49.480
<v Speaker 1>or as it is known de Facts. Probably sixty eight

0:31:49.560 --> 0:31:52.920
<v Speaker 1>or sixty nine. I've been a social worker and I

0:31:52.920 --> 0:31:57.400
<v Speaker 1>had heard about treatment centers for allegedly delinquent boys, someone

0:31:57.400 --> 0:31:59.400
<v Speaker 1>who weren't really delinquent. They just had done him home

0:31:59.480 --> 0:32:02.440
<v Speaker 1>to go to had a very bright patient. I guess

0:32:02.440 --> 0:32:04.320
<v Speaker 1>I should go him who had no place to live,

0:32:04.400 --> 0:32:06.920
<v Speaker 1>and I said, well, I gotta put him someplace. I

0:32:06.960 --> 0:32:10.320
<v Speaker 1>heard about Anawaki through the social work, through the information

0:32:10.400 --> 0:32:13.120
<v Speaker 1>held by the Department of Family, Mansial and Services, and

0:32:13.200 --> 0:32:16.560
<v Speaker 1>so I went to see Anuwaki. I met Louis Petter

0:32:16.800 --> 0:32:19.800
<v Speaker 1>and we talked about the program, and Petter maybe an offer.

0:32:20.280 --> 0:32:23.480
<v Speaker 1>He offered me a position there as a teacher because

0:32:23.520 --> 0:32:26.360
<v Speaker 1>I had by teaching credentials I had taught in high schools.

0:32:27.120 --> 0:32:29.720
<v Speaker 1>Robert says the idea of working with at risk youth

0:32:29.800 --> 0:32:33.440
<v Speaker 1>in an outdoor setting was something that interested him right away.

0:32:33.640 --> 0:32:35.520
<v Speaker 1>When I first started to work there, I had a

0:32:35.560 --> 0:32:38.840
<v Speaker 1>group and we lived in tents in Douglasville in the

0:32:38.840 --> 0:32:42.800
<v Speaker 1>Anuwaki real estate. And I had that job, and I

0:32:42.840 --> 0:32:45.480
<v Speaker 1>also was the head teacher. And as it turned out,

0:32:45.480 --> 0:32:48.680
<v Speaker 1>I was the only teacher as far as training was concerned,

0:32:48.680 --> 0:32:53.479
<v Speaker 1>there wasn't any I had co counselor with me, and

0:32:54.160 --> 0:32:56.640
<v Speaker 1>with the boys. There's like tennor Troll boys in in

0:32:56.680 --> 0:33:00.000
<v Speaker 1>that group. He had boys separated into different groups, maybe

0:33:00.320 --> 0:33:02.880
<v Speaker 1>five or six different groups. So I was directly in

0:33:02.960 --> 0:33:04.680
<v Speaker 1>charge of one group when I was the teacher for

0:33:04.720 --> 0:33:08.120
<v Speaker 1>all the groups solely but surely. The first thing I

0:33:08.160 --> 0:33:11.640
<v Speaker 1>did out there was supervised the boys in building. It

0:33:11.760 --> 0:33:14.200
<v Speaker 1>was really a lot of fun. And I'm not very skilled,

0:33:14.240 --> 0:33:17.080
<v Speaker 1>but I can carry things around and hammer and nail.

0:33:17.800 --> 0:33:19.520
<v Speaker 1>And after we built the building, it was time to

0:33:19.560 --> 0:33:23.000
<v Speaker 1>go in the canoe trip. Better had talked about taking

0:33:23.360 --> 0:33:26.320
<v Speaker 1>a bunch of boys on an outward bound type trip,

0:33:26.920 --> 0:33:29.800
<v Speaker 1>and we talked about the Swannee River. I always wanted

0:33:29.800 --> 0:33:32.240
<v Speaker 1>a canoe the whole Swanny. I'd been down there and

0:33:32.520 --> 0:33:35.160
<v Speaker 1>go and behold I did. We had started at the

0:33:35.160 --> 0:33:37.920
<v Speaker 1>Okifinoki Swamp and went down to the Gulf of Mexico.

0:33:38.800 --> 0:33:41.360
<v Speaker 1>So off we go. So I'm gone for the next

0:33:41.480 --> 0:33:43.680
<v Speaker 1>three weeks or more because at the end of the

0:33:43.680 --> 0:33:46.800
<v Speaker 1>canoe trip we stayed at a motel owned by an

0:33:46.920 --> 0:33:49.760
<v Speaker 1>Awaki and Carabelle or Is either owned by an Awakey

0:33:49.880 --> 0:33:54.680
<v Speaker 1>Lewis Petter robert Is referring to Carrabelle, Florida. This was

0:33:54.760 --> 0:33:57.040
<v Speaker 1>the beginning of what would become a second campus for

0:33:57.080 --> 0:34:00.040
<v Speaker 1>an Awaki. At the time, it was no more in

0:34:00.120 --> 0:34:03.040
<v Speaker 1>a motel on the Gulf of Mexico in the Panhandle

0:34:03.120 --> 0:34:06.880
<v Speaker 1>region of Florida. Robert says it was during his time

0:34:06.880 --> 0:34:09.319
<v Speaker 1>on this canoe trip that he first started to think

0:34:09.400 --> 0:34:12.200
<v Speaker 1>something wasn't right with Petter and his relationship with some

0:34:12.280 --> 0:34:16.239
<v Speaker 1>of the boys. I had an inkling of that down

0:34:16.239 --> 0:34:20.000
<v Speaker 1>at Carabelle. I thought that some of the behavior of

0:34:20.320 --> 0:34:24.279
<v Speaker 1>Louis Petter was probably inappropriate to its touching. I mean,

0:34:24.280 --> 0:34:25.920
<v Speaker 1>it's one thing to, you know, give a kind of

0:34:25.960 --> 0:34:28.640
<v Speaker 1>fatherly hug. It's another thing to put your hands on

0:34:29.160 --> 0:34:33.440
<v Speaker 1>people a little bit too much. Roger Wren, when we

0:34:33.480 --> 0:34:36.280
<v Speaker 1>first heard at the beginning of this episode, also worked

0:34:36.280 --> 0:34:39.600
<v Speaker 1>with Robert at Anawaki. At this time, they both began

0:34:39.640 --> 0:34:43.000
<v Speaker 1>to sense that something was off. Bob was hired about

0:34:43.520 --> 0:34:48.160
<v Speaker 1>seven months after I had arrived, maybe six, and he

0:34:48.280 --> 0:34:52.120
<v Speaker 1>and I became immediate friends. He's really a fine human being,

0:34:52.200 --> 0:34:54.480
<v Speaker 1>and Bob and I saw all right, I and we

0:34:54.520 --> 0:34:57.319
<v Speaker 1>started talking and saying, what you think is going on?

0:34:58.120 --> 0:35:01.960
<v Speaker 1>And then we started having some strong suspicions that things

0:35:02.000 --> 0:35:05.200
<v Speaker 1>were awry and what we thought was going on in

0:35:05.320 --> 0:35:09.120
<v Speaker 1>therapy was really not therapy at all. One thing that

0:35:09.200 --> 0:35:12.520
<v Speaker 1>first fed the suspicion was the fact that certain children

0:35:12.560 --> 0:35:15.839
<v Speaker 1>would stay at Lewis Petter's house on the weekend. I

0:35:15.880 --> 0:35:18.680
<v Speaker 1>didn't like it that the kids would go to his house.

0:35:18.760 --> 0:35:21.240
<v Speaker 1>A specific kid would go to his house and spend

0:35:21.280 --> 0:35:24.840
<v Speaker 1>a weekend or maybe a week with him. I questioned

0:35:24.840 --> 0:35:27.279
<v Speaker 1>several staffmanbers, like, what's that's all about, And well, he

0:35:27.320 --> 0:35:30.480
<v Speaker 1>gives them special therapy on the weekends. There was one

0:35:30.560 --> 0:35:33.880
<v Speaker 1>fellow there I thought was very ethical, very competent with

0:35:33.920 --> 0:35:37.319
<v Speaker 1>the kids, and he really ran the day to day

0:35:37.560 --> 0:35:40.680
<v Speaker 1>program there and he was just about as fine as

0:35:40.719 --> 0:35:42.880
<v Speaker 1>he could be. And I asked him about it, and

0:35:42.960 --> 0:35:45.720
<v Speaker 1>he said, he said, I think he does individual therapy

0:35:45.800 --> 0:35:50.400
<v Speaker 1>with him. The counselor Roger is referring to is Brett Baxley,

0:35:50.560 --> 0:35:54.000
<v Speaker 1>or as he was known on campus, Mr b. Everyone

0:35:54.000 --> 0:35:57.120
<v Speaker 1>I've interviewed says that Baxley was a stand up guy

0:35:57.239 --> 0:36:01.160
<v Speaker 1>who really cared about the kids and teaching them. Baxley's

0:36:01.200 --> 0:36:03.640
<v Speaker 1>history with Petter went back to the beginning of Anna Waki.

0:36:04.160 --> 0:36:08.000
<v Speaker 1>He even helped with the original land acquisition. What Baxley

0:36:08.040 --> 0:36:10.319
<v Speaker 1>and Petter's relationship was like is still a bit of

0:36:10.320 --> 0:36:14.040
<v Speaker 1>a mystery. What we do know is that, for whatever reason,

0:36:14.239 --> 0:36:19.000
<v Speaker 1>Baxley never questioned Petter's actions. Roger Wren and Robert Agostino

0:36:19.120 --> 0:36:22.759
<v Speaker 1>co chaperoned the canoe trip down the Swanee River. It

0:36:22.880 --> 0:36:26.000
<v Speaker 1>was at the destination in Caribelle, Florida that their suspicion

0:36:26.000 --> 0:36:29.839
<v Speaker 1>of abuse came to a head. Bob Camp and I'd

0:36:29.920 --> 0:36:31.839
<v Speaker 1>used his name, but he was down there and he

0:36:31.960 --> 0:36:36.000
<v Speaker 1>was There was a relationship between Louis Petter and Bob Camp,

0:36:36.040 --> 0:36:39.360
<v Speaker 1>which I thought was a little off, that something was

0:36:39.400 --> 0:36:45.000
<v Speaker 1>wrong again, the touching, Bob Camp's demeanor. At one point,

0:36:45.160 --> 0:36:48.040
<v Speaker 1>Roger rental or Bob Camp and Louis Petter and bed together.

0:36:49.080 --> 0:36:52.600
<v Speaker 1>Roger Wren initially saw this incident with Petter. He quickly

0:36:52.600 --> 0:36:56.160
<v Speaker 1>grabbed Bob Agostino to confirm what his own eyes had seen.

0:36:56.920 --> 0:36:59.680
<v Speaker 1>They were lying down together in the same bed, even

0:36:59.680 --> 0:37:03.440
<v Speaker 1>though was plenty of beds around. Kind of start wondering

0:37:03.520 --> 0:37:06.080
<v Speaker 1>what the heck was going on. But that was the

0:37:06.120 --> 0:37:09.200
<v Speaker 1>first inkling, and it happened early on, I must say,

0:37:09.280 --> 0:37:11.160
<v Speaker 1>but it took me a while to really figure out

0:37:11.239 --> 0:37:16.399
<v Speaker 1>exactly what was going on. Roger Wren remembers this incident firsthand.

0:37:17.880 --> 0:37:19.839
<v Speaker 1>Bob and I found him in the morning in bed

0:37:19.880 --> 0:37:22.360
<v Speaker 1>with one of the kids, and I don't want to

0:37:22.360 --> 0:37:24.680
<v Speaker 1>get a graphic, but it was. It was pretty rough,

0:37:24.800 --> 0:37:27.320
<v Speaker 1>and that's when Bob and I sort of said, oh,

0:37:27.440 --> 0:37:31.400
<v Speaker 1>then we knew there was no question. I've absolutely had

0:37:31.520 --> 0:37:34.600
<v Speaker 1>nightmares about it for several years. If I think about

0:37:34.600 --> 0:37:37.000
<v Speaker 1>it now, I get the e B gbs. It's just

0:37:37.200 --> 0:37:41.960
<v Speaker 1>not a pleasant thing. The day in which that occurred,

0:37:42.080 --> 0:37:45.040
<v Speaker 1>I just went per sirk. I mean, I was not myself,

0:37:45.120 --> 0:37:47.960
<v Speaker 1>and I'm usually fairly well controlled, but I was so emotional.

0:37:48.000 --> 0:37:50.399
<v Speaker 1>I couldn't stop Bob too. Bob and I were both mad,

0:37:51.040 --> 0:37:55.080
<v Speaker 1>and he just flat denied it, kept denying it and said,

0:37:55.120 --> 0:37:57.960
<v Speaker 1>that's not what you saw, and that's when we sort

0:37:58.000 --> 0:37:59.719
<v Speaker 1>of agonized. I said, I'm going to get out of

0:37:59.760 --> 0:38:02.120
<v Speaker 1>here it. Bob and I decided how are we going

0:38:02.200 --> 0:38:04.960
<v Speaker 1>to protect these children? Because they were thirteen year old

0:38:05.080 --> 0:38:07.600
<v Speaker 1>kids and there were something that were even eleven, and

0:38:07.680 --> 0:38:11.520
<v Speaker 1>I thought, I just I can't leave them here. After that,

0:38:12.080 --> 0:38:14.239
<v Speaker 1>I was trying to ask Bob. Bob was asking me

0:38:14.320 --> 0:38:16.600
<v Speaker 1>what should we do? Should we quit or should we

0:38:16.640 --> 0:38:18.680
<v Speaker 1>stay here? And trying to help the kids. What's what's

0:38:18.719 --> 0:38:22.920
<v Speaker 1>our role? Da Gastino and Wrin both decided to stay

0:38:22.920 --> 0:38:26.080
<v Speaker 1>on at in Awaki for the time being. They needed

0:38:26.120 --> 0:38:30.920
<v Speaker 1>to find out what else was going on. When I

0:38:30.920 --> 0:38:32.520
<v Speaker 1>got back there, I had a lot of work to

0:38:32.560 --> 0:38:34.640
<v Speaker 1>do on the way he's setting up to school and

0:38:34.640 --> 0:38:36.759
<v Speaker 1>all that sort of stuff, and so, you know, things

0:38:36.880 --> 0:38:39.480
<v Speaker 1>went on maybe a month or so. I got to

0:38:39.520 --> 0:38:42.200
<v Speaker 1>school going mostly I was with the group of the

0:38:42.239 --> 0:38:45.120
<v Speaker 1>school back and forth. Then I started to notice that

0:38:45.360 --> 0:38:47.920
<v Speaker 1>Louis Petter had this group of boys around him. It's

0:38:47.960 --> 0:38:50.839
<v Speaker 1>the same group. I said to one of them, why

0:38:50.840 --> 0:38:52.960
<v Speaker 1>are you what was with Dr? How to call him

0:38:53.000 --> 0:38:55.000
<v Speaker 1>Dr petti because that's what he wanted to be called,

0:38:55.080 --> 0:38:58.200
<v Speaker 1>you know. He said, no, PhD. He said, well, we

0:38:58.239 --> 0:39:01.520
<v Speaker 1>live with Dr Pettick. I said what he said, Yeah,

0:39:01.680 --> 0:39:03.840
<v Speaker 1>three or four of them we lived at his house

0:39:03.920 --> 0:39:07.080
<v Speaker 1>with him. I said, who lived with his house with him?

0:39:07.320 --> 0:39:09.840
<v Speaker 1>Is this just temporarily or been there for a long time?

0:39:09.880 --> 0:39:12.080
<v Speaker 1>And at least two of them said no, they've been

0:39:12.120 --> 0:39:15.320
<v Speaker 1>there for quite a while. They literally for quite a while. Well,

0:39:15.320 --> 0:39:18.600
<v Speaker 1>next time there, I started to watch every time he

0:39:18.680 --> 0:39:21.319
<v Speaker 1>came on campus. I kept my eyeball on Petter, and

0:39:21.320 --> 0:39:23.560
<v Speaker 1>I talked to Roger and Wren, who also had a

0:39:23.600 --> 0:39:27.200
<v Speaker 1>groups assigned to him besides being a psychologist and my

0:39:27.360 --> 0:39:31.000
<v Speaker 1>group and Rodgers group were off bounds. He couldn't go

0:39:31.080 --> 0:39:34.000
<v Speaker 1>near him. I wouldn't let him near my group. It's

0:39:34.000 --> 0:39:37.080
<v Speaker 1>worth noting here that Petter was an amputee from childhood

0:39:37.360 --> 0:39:40.560
<v Speaker 1>with a wooden leg where his limb once was. There

0:39:40.600 --> 0:39:44.560
<v Speaker 1>was one incident where my group was assigned a new kid, tall,

0:39:44.760 --> 0:39:48.560
<v Speaker 1>good looking fella, kind of muscular. And I can remember

0:39:48.560 --> 0:39:53.080
<v Speaker 1>this incident really well. There was a gang shower. Each

0:39:53.080 --> 0:39:54.920
<v Speaker 1>group would going in to have a gang shower, and

0:39:54.920 --> 0:39:57.680
<v Speaker 1>because Louis was prone to, let's say, walk into the

0:39:57.680 --> 0:40:02.160
<v Speaker 1>gang shower, supervised things. My groups in the gang shower,

0:40:02.360 --> 0:40:05.279
<v Speaker 1>and I know Louie is zeroing in on this new kid.

0:40:06.760 --> 0:40:10.239
<v Speaker 1>And Louis was about to go into the shower and

0:40:10.280 --> 0:40:12.799
<v Speaker 1>I said, Dr Petter, I don't think you should go

0:40:12.880 --> 0:40:15.799
<v Speaker 1>in there. He said, oh not. I said, it's my

0:40:15.880 --> 0:40:18.920
<v Speaker 1>group in there. And remember I told you before my

0:40:18.960 --> 0:40:22.080
<v Speaker 1>group is under my protection. You're not going in there.

0:40:22.400 --> 0:40:24.080
<v Speaker 1>And I know what you're going in there for. And

0:40:24.120 --> 0:40:26.040
<v Speaker 1>I said, Louis, I'm gonna tell you something. You go

0:40:26.080 --> 0:40:29.680
<v Speaker 1>in there and you touch that kid and you try

0:40:29.719 --> 0:40:32.160
<v Speaker 1>to abuse that kid, you know your wooden leg, I'm

0:40:32.160 --> 0:40:33.960
<v Speaker 1>gonna saw her off and throw it in the lake.

0:40:36.880 --> 0:40:41.280
<v Speaker 1>While Rinnandagostino knew that Petter was having inappropriate relations with students.

0:40:41.600 --> 0:40:44.239
<v Speaker 1>There were other counselors they were afraid may also be

0:40:44.320 --> 0:40:47.840
<v Speaker 1>taking advantage of the children. Look, some of the counselors

0:40:47.840 --> 0:40:49.960
<v Speaker 1>out there were bringing Roger, of course was good. There

0:40:50.000 --> 0:40:53.000
<v Speaker 1>was another counselor who I thought was really top flight,

0:40:53.520 --> 0:40:55.719
<v Speaker 1>and I think he was a homosexual, but I know

0:40:55.840 --> 0:40:59.880
<v Speaker 1>he never touched the kids. I still know what Petter

0:41:00.080 --> 0:41:03.200
<v Speaker 1>had on Baxley, and why Baxley, who was a decent

0:41:03.280 --> 0:41:06.759
<v Speaker 1>human being in every other way, would have cooperated with

0:41:06.840 --> 0:41:09.680
<v Speaker 1>the Petter what he was doing. I just don't understand it.

0:41:10.280 --> 0:41:15.240
<v Speaker 1>Never could. There was no indication that actually ever abused anyway.

0:41:16.360 --> 0:41:19.080
<v Speaker 1>And then there was Sam. There's a couple of other

0:41:19.120 --> 0:41:23.160
<v Speaker 1>ones out there who were just bad news. Sam was

0:41:23.200 --> 0:41:27.520
<v Speaker 1>the worst, Sam Singleton. Sam Singleton was a counselor and

0:41:27.560 --> 0:41:30.560
<v Speaker 1>a serial abuser of the kids. And I brought that

0:41:30.640 --> 0:41:33.640
<v Speaker 1>up with loud Petter, and of course his reaction was, well,

0:41:33.680 --> 0:41:35.520
<v Speaker 1>I'll talk to him, don't worry about it. Don't worry

0:41:35.520 --> 0:41:38.279
<v Speaker 1>about it. I'm an old social worker. I could tell

0:41:38.360 --> 0:41:42.560
<v Speaker 1>what's going on. And I eventually confronted Sam Singleton about

0:41:42.600 --> 0:41:46.520
<v Speaker 1>this in fact, I kicked him off the campus. I

0:41:46.560 --> 0:41:49.400
<v Speaker 1>had no authority, but I kicked him off campus anyway,

0:41:49.719 --> 0:41:51.759
<v Speaker 1>and Louis, of course brought her back. A couple of

0:41:51.800 --> 0:41:53.920
<v Speaker 1>weeks later. To three weeks later, he brought her back.

0:41:54.760 --> 0:42:00.200
<v Speaker 1>Sam was after this kid might Apparently Sam just I'd

0:42:00.200 --> 0:42:03.000
<v Speaker 1>have the hots for him, and I told Sam at

0:42:03.040 --> 0:42:05.839
<v Speaker 1>one point that if he touched Mike, I would break

0:42:05.880 --> 0:42:10.080
<v Speaker 1>his neck. He just walked away. He knew I was serious.

0:42:12.239 --> 0:42:15.560
<v Speaker 1>Shortly after this time, Roger Wren had reached his breaking point.

0:42:15.960 --> 0:42:20.720
<v Speaker 1>He recalls his resignation with the petter. After a while,

0:42:20.719 --> 0:42:22.440
<v Speaker 1>it became apparent that he and I were going to

0:42:22.560 --> 0:42:25.680
<v Speaker 1>be completely persona non grata. We were not going to

0:42:25.760 --> 0:42:28.680
<v Speaker 1>be allowed to do anything, and we had no power.

0:42:29.080 --> 0:42:31.800
<v Speaker 1>I said, I can't tolerate this, and he said goodbye.

0:42:32.160 --> 0:42:35.719
<v Speaker 1>After that, I got out of there. Roger was not

0:42:35.800 --> 0:42:39.120
<v Speaker 1>the only one who had had enough. Dagostino remembers the

0:42:39.160 --> 0:42:42.399
<v Speaker 1>mood at an Awaki at the time. Miss Ogiltree, who

0:42:42.480 --> 0:42:45.680
<v Speaker 1>was then the social worker. She was a delightful woman

0:42:45.960 --> 0:42:48.480
<v Speaker 1>and she was a good, good social worker, a good person.

0:42:49.560 --> 0:42:51.279
<v Speaker 1>When she figured out that that wasn't one of the

0:42:51.320 --> 0:42:53.920
<v Speaker 1>bad guys, she said to me soon she finds a

0:42:53.960 --> 0:42:57.640
<v Speaker 1>new job. She's getting out of there. Miss Ogiltree had left,

0:42:57.880 --> 0:43:02.960
<v Speaker 1>she had fled. Roger Wren had quit. So my allies

0:43:03.040 --> 0:43:06.799
<v Speaker 1>were gone, and Baxley would do nothing. The head counselor

0:43:07.080 --> 0:43:10.680
<v Speaker 1>I asked him, I said, why why are you letting

0:43:10.719 --> 0:43:13.359
<v Speaker 1>this happen? Why are you letting this happen? Why are

0:43:13.360 --> 0:43:18.000
<v Speaker 1>you covering up for Louis Petter? And he he had

0:43:18.040 --> 0:43:20.640
<v Speaker 1>no answer to that question. Well, I said, why are

0:43:20.640 --> 0:43:23.360
<v Speaker 1>you allowing Louis to do this stuff? Why are you

0:43:23.400 --> 0:43:26.919
<v Speaker 1>allowing this? This could be a good place, this could

0:43:26.920 --> 0:43:31.840
<v Speaker 1>be a wonderful place, but it's not because of what

0:43:31.920 --> 0:43:36.440
<v Speaker 1>louis doing. And you can stop him, you can keep away.

0:43:36.920 --> 0:43:40.200
<v Speaker 1>Robert says his relationship with Petter remained tense during his

0:43:40.280 --> 0:43:43.879
<v Speaker 1>last days at Ain't AWAKEI l after I threatened to

0:43:43.880 --> 0:43:47.120
<v Speaker 1>cut his leg off. Let's say our relationsister came around

0:43:47.160 --> 0:43:51.440
<v Speaker 1>the frosty and interesting enough. Of course, he didn't fire

0:43:51.480 --> 0:43:56.360
<v Speaker 1>me because he really thought he was untouchable. Eventually Robert

0:43:56.440 --> 0:43:59.200
<v Speaker 1>left the camp as well. He and Roger knew that

0:43:59.320 --> 0:44:01.560
<v Speaker 1>something had to be done about what they had witnessed.

0:44:01.560 --> 0:44:05.200
<v Speaker 1>It in a week and that's when we started making

0:44:05.239 --> 0:44:08.759
<v Speaker 1>as much effort as we could. And we were young,

0:44:08.800 --> 0:44:12.880
<v Speaker 1>remember with twenty five year old kids, and we're scared,

0:44:13.680 --> 0:44:17.600
<v Speaker 1>and the whole process was was frightening from a personal

0:44:17.640 --> 0:44:19.640
<v Speaker 1>point of view. Because I'm a graduate student. I don't

0:44:19.680 --> 0:44:22.880
<v Speaker 1>have any power, but we did have enormous amount of

0:44:22.960 --> 0:44:27.239
<v Speaker 1>energy and we tried everything we could. Because I probably

0:44:27.280 --> 0:44:31.319
<v Speaker 1>left unawake, I went to Defects and complained about what

0:44:31.360 --> 0:44:35.600
<v Speaker 1>was going on. We went to the sheriff I believe

0:44:35.600 --> 0:44:40.480
<v Speaker 1>his name was Abercrombie uh and remembering that Louis Petter

0:44:40.600 --> 0:44:45.120
<v Speaker 1>was also a Baptist minister and he had a strong

0:44:45.680 --> 0:44:50.439
<v Speaker 1>standing in the community in Douglasville. We brought eighty kids

0:44:50.480 --> 0:44:52.799
<v Speaker 1>to church every Sunday, to the Baptist church, so it

0:44:52.840 --> 0:44:56.239
<v Speaker 1>was it was a big deal. And nothing happened at

0:44:56.239 --> 0:44:59.800
<v Speaker 1>the sheriff's office. Nothing happened. We went to the States

0:45:00.000 --> 0:45:02.799
<v Speaker 1>our welfare program. They didn't want to hear it. We

0:45:02.840 --> 0:45:06.520
<v Speaker 1>went to the newspaper, to the Atlanta Journal. We went

0:45:06.600 --> 0:45:09.160
<v Speaker 1>to an attorney all by ourselves, and we went in

0:45:09.239 --> 0:45:12.200
<v Speaker 1>and the assays, there's you know, he didn't want any

0:45:12.200 --> 0:45:17.320
<v Speaker 1>part of it. Raynondagastino had made up their minds something

0:45:17.360 --> 0:45:20.480
<v Speaker 1>had to be done about the abuse taking place at Annawaki.

0:45:21.320 --> 0:45:25.080
<v Speaker 1>It seemed everywhere they turned, nobody would listen to their story.

0:45:25.320 --> 0:45:30.440
<v Speaker 1>That is, until a patient would finally come forward next

0:45:30.480 --> 0:45:35.120
<v Speaker 1>time on Camp how and Awake. I just thought that

0:45:35.200 --> 0:45:38.160
<v Speaker 1>people would be really upset about this. I thought people

0:45:38.160 --> 0:45:41.919
<v Speaker 1>would rise up and do something about it. Nothing was done.

0:45:42.520 --> 0:45:45.920
<v Speaker 1>We were involved in trying to find some way to

0:45:46.200 --> 0:45:50.440
<v Speaker 1>extricate him from the camp. You cannot imagine knowing something

0:45:50.480 --> 0:45:55.120
<v Speaker 1>that is horrendous in telling people, in fact screaming and

0:45:55.239 --> 0:46:00.080
<v Speaker 1>nobody listening. It's very meticulous about maintaining relationships with the

0:46:00.160 --> 0:46:04.120
<v Speaker 1>people who were in positions of power. To Department of

0:46:04.239 --> 0:46:10.120
<v Speaker 1>Family and Children's Services actually placed boys in that camp

0:46:10.760 --> 0:46:13.719
<v Speaker 1>even though they knew about what he did in Savannah.

0:46:14.440 --> 0:46:16.520
<v Speaker 1>And finally, I think they were embarrassed at the point

0:46:16.560 --> 0:46:19.880
<v Speaker 1>where they had to hold the hearing. The defense lawyers

0:46:20.400 --> 0:46:26.120
<v Speaker 1>for Annawaki for the accused used information about their pathologies

0:46:26.760 --> 0:46:35.480
<v Speaker 1>to discredit them, to question their credibility, and to humiliate them.

0:46:35.520 --> 0:46:39.080
<v Speaker 1>In last week's episode, you heard from Dale Strickland, one

0:46:39.080 --> 0:46:42.400
<v Speaker 1>of the very first attendees of an Awake. We were

0:46:42.480 --> 0:46:46.280
<v Speaker 1>recently informed that Dale passed away shortly after his interview

0:46:46.560 --> 0:46:49.600
<v Speaker 1>before the podcast was able to come out. We would

0:46:49.640 --> 0:46:52.560
<v Speaker 1>like to dedicate this episode to Dale and his memory

0:46:53.040 --> 0:46:58.200
<v Speaker 1>and thank him for his involvement in the podcast. Camp

0:46:58.200 --> 0:47:01.799
<v Speaker 1>hell Anawaki was created and hosted by Josh Thane, with

0:47:01.880 --> 0:47:06.360
<v Speaker 1>producer Miranda Hawkins and executive producers Alex Williams and Matt Frederick.

0:47:06.960 --> 0:47:09.960
<v Speaker 1>The soundtrack was written and performed by Josh Thane and

0:47:10.040 --> 0:47:13.840
<v Speaker 1>Adrian Barry. This episode featured the voices of Matt Frederick

0:47:13.920 --> 0:47:17.680
<v Speaker 1>and Ben Bolan. Archival footage provided by ws B and

0:47:17.760 --> 0:47:21.879
<v Speaker 1>CBS News. Find us on Instagram at camp hell Pod.

0:47:22.120 --> 0:47:25.640
<v Speaker 1>That's c A M p h E L l p

0:47:25.880 --> 0:47:29.320
<v Speaker 1>O D educate yourself about the issue of child abuse

0:47:29.480 --> 0:47:31.760
<v Speaker 1>and things that you should look for at the Darkness

0:47:31.800 --> 0:47:35.279
<v Speaker 1>to Light website D two ll dot org. That's d

0:47:35.520 --> 0:47:40.200
<v Speaker 1>the number two l dot org. Camp hell ana Waki

0:47:40.440 --> 0:47:43.200
<v Speaker 1>is a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts

0:47:43.239 --> 0:47:45.759
<v Speaker 1>from my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app,

0:47:45.880 --> 0:47:49.000
<v Speaker 1>Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.